gantes
gantes
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The ones who surprise me the most often are Huntress players. Such a simple design, but people always manage to surpass my expectations while playing her.
I rarely face Demos, but I faced one or two so far that were absurdly scary too.
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@PigNRun said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1250460#Comment_1250460
Big oof. Saying something, then saying you arent saying that, but still saying the same thing. If both sides are bad, the Killer is more likely to win. Low ranks is the exact comparison of that. And, yes, this IS true for any Killer (except Nurse and 110% Killers in certain situations as I said above). All that "hidden power" is on every single other Killer and affects new Survivors as much, if not more than Freddy. See Trapper with checking every entrance, or Wraith fearing that he might be around the corner, or GF with a similar issue like Wraith, or Plague with Survivors that cleanse themselves whenever they get puked on, or Hag crouching for every unhook or running away from the trap anyway.
As for your rest of the comment, first off, if your problem is "playing 3 games as Freddy and have him mastered", then your problem is that you dont enjoy playing him. Because, as Survivor, if a Freddy has counterplay (and he does, but thats not what the thread is about), why should you care how much time the player on the other side invested to figure out their own strategy? Imagine if Myers required less time to get into (which is pretty minimal as well, btw), would you be complaining about how much time he took to learn that "he he M2 goes *Halloween cue*" even if you survived? If you dont like Freddy's "blandness", "simplicity" or "accessibility", then choose any of the other "high skill ceiling" Killers.
Edit: "Besides, I never even said he had to be nerfed or balanced around lower ranks. All I said is that he's a pubstomp character, and that's not good in any game, and it's most definitely reason for adjustments/power shifts without nerfing the character."
Pick one. Because you cant do both. You cant not balance him around low ranks and than expect them to make him easier to face as low ranks. Because, in this case, your beef isnt against the character itself, but the low skilled players, which entails a problem with ranks, which has nothing to do with Freddy. See Doctor. He was a noobstomper, and weak against experienced Survivors. He was reworked; he is still a noobstomper but considerably more powerful against experienced Survivors.
(The rest of the post isnt aimed at you)
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PSA: Skill ceiling != Skill floor.
- Skill ceiling: The max you can do with a character.
- Skill floor: The least you can do with a character to do good.
Just so people dont confuse what the topic is about.
I actually wrote a pretty big response but quite honestly since you're trying extremely hard to misrepresent what I say I don't think this is worth my time.
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Moris shouldn't even exist.
Yeah I get it the animations are cool. Then implement moris as a game mechanic that needs more conditions to be met/are tied to perks such as Devour Hope. Getting mori'd because of DH feels fair because the killer had to work for it. Getting mori'd because of Rancor feels like garbage, but there's still more counterplay, especially if there are multiple people alive in the end, and it requires a perk slot too.
Moris have no business existing as an offering, and I find it honestly baffling that they're still in the game in their current form.
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@PigNRun said:
Things to note:
- Survivors already get a bubble notification when others step on snares. Pallets, no. But considering how situational they are... do they need changes? After all, the whole point is to catch them off guard on what pallets are real and which are not. No SWF will waste breath saying "I dropped that one pallet in between the two hay bales!".
- He doesnt have Undetectable. Survivors get Oblivious. Theres no aura reading immunity anymore.
As for the main topic, whats wrong about having Killers with more accessible powers? Not everyone wants to play all the time a Killer like Huntress/Deathslinger that require aiming, or Plague who relies on the Survivors' decisions, or Nurse who has a(n) (unnecessary) cooldown on top of fatigue, or Legion and their plethora of penalties for using their power. Remember DbD is a game. There has to be options to fit with a player's playstyle and preference on subjective engagement.
About Freddy not having a slowdown, maybe we should see it the other way round. Is the slowdown on certain Killers actually worth it? Clown has a slowdown, and, between other stuff, has been a feature that has been the most requested thing to be removed. Old Doc had a slowdown while charging his shock, they didnt remove it, but fixed it by giving him more range. Did Legion 2.0 need that decrease in vault and Frenzy speed? There are several cases in the game where a slowdown isnt needed, so "Its there for others, why not for him?" isnt really an argument. Sure, some others are 100% needed, however not all slowdowns do.
As for the Freddy-Demodoggo comparison, why should Freddy need such a massive downgrade? Demodoggo is punished for placing his portals. He doesnt get them back unless Survivors break them. They become useless as the matches progresses. With these two in mind, they are also too easy to seal. This thread is about Freddy, so Ill stop here. However, same logic applies here that I used on my previous paragraph. Instead of asking "Why can Freddy teleport so easily?", maybe we should be asking "Why do other Killers have such a hard time teleporting?" (or Demodoggo, more precisely, because Hag, for example, is fine).
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1250065#Comment_1250065
Then welcome to low ranks, buddy, where balance is subjective beyond any kind of comprehension. This is true for ANY Killer (the only exception being Nurse and maybe 110% Killers), because low rank Survivors are so mediocre that Killers dont need a power to kill them. You are saying Freddy should be balanced around low tier players, which is exactly what nobody wants.
Your comparison makes zero sense. This is NOT true for any killer. Sure, the game is killer sided at lower levels of play, but Freddy takes it to an absurd level. He has a ton of hidden power that you can't see playing as killer but affects survivors directly. His ratio of effort to result is disgusting.
And the rest of your comment also doesn't make sense. No one is asking for all killers to have insanely high entry barriers like Nurse or absurd aiming skills required like Huntress or Deathslinger. However, most other killers in the game have way more depth than Freddy does. Anyone can play 3 Freddy games and "master" him if they know the bare fundamentals of the game. You say simple killers should exist, and I agree. There are plenty of simple killers in the game that have a skill ceiling, unlike Freddy.
Not to mention he's Clown levels of snoozefest to face, except he actually rewards the player for picking a character with zero skill expression or gameplay depth.
Besides, I never even said he had to be nerfed or balanced around lower ranks. All I said is that he's a pubstomp character, and that's not good in any game, and it's most definitely reason for adjustments/power shifts without nerfing the character.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
I play Freddy a noticeable amount, possibly my second most played killer under Legion. I see many peoples issues with Freddy and I can easily tell when i'm being a total pain in the ass to play against, which isn't because of my playstyle (I never use forever Freddy, never tunnel unless needed, never camp unless needed, etc...), but because of the teammates not having long chases.
Freddy thrives off of short chases, it's his make or break whether he's gonna have a 20 second chase, or a 70 second chase and that's what people fail to understand and what people need to play around. He's horrible at switching targets and it's why pop is so god damn good on him.
This causes him to be an absolute stomper against bad to mediocre teams with very little skill required, however, I don't have a problem with that. If the team is playing bad then it shouldn't require much skill to actually beat them. When it comes to actual good teams however you'll notice your decision making as the Freddy player really matters and where the skill cap on him is truly tested. You need to know when to fake tp or actually tp, know when to and where to set snares, your chase game needs to be on point etc. I guarantee most players who say he has no skilful things going for him would be destroyed if they versed a good team.
More importantly he's actually fun asf against a good squad.
Personally I only have one hate against Freddy and that how he gets passive pressure with Forever Freddy, other than that I have no issue going against addon-less Freddy as I know that if I lose it's most likely me and the team playing bad.
As for changes, i really wouldn't do anything to him. If anything id buff his CD on his gen TP to promote a more hit and run playstyle and not a "tunnel someone down" playstyle.
That's the problem though. He's a pubstomper. Meaning that a mediocre Freddy will almost always beat a mediocre survivor team. A bad Freddy will also almost always destroy a bad survivor team. He's unbalanced at lower brackets because of how simple his kit is.
And while I don't think playing Freddy doesn't involve skill, the skills it does involve are general killer skills, while his kit itself has little to no skill expression when compared to the majority of the killers in the game. Every killer has to be on point in chases. Every killer needs to know how to apply pressure. You can just spam snares with little decision making and consequences, and his teleport takes him where he needs to be with no previous planning or effort. He's an uninspired design, and this becomes very obvious when you compare him to the other killers who got released this year and the last.
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The main problem with Freddy's design is how flat his learning curve is.
When you start playing killer in this game, the first thing you (should) learn are the fundamentals. Running tiles, map awareness, knowing when to slug, when to drop chases. You're obviously going to pick up some killer specific skills along the way, but ideally you should be focused on learning fundamentals.
After that, mastering individual killer power comes in. There's the obvious elephant in the room on Nurse. As Nurse, the fundamentals matter less, because you don't have to run tiles. The skills relevant to being a good Nurse are far beyond the ones needed to be a good killer player in general. I think Nurse pushes the needle the other way too much, but she still has the deepest killer specific skillset in the game.
Then enter intermediate killers. I'd say Huntress, Deathslinger, Spirit, Hag, Demo, Oni and Billy fit this category. Even though those killers aren't necessarily hard (I think Spirit is by far the easiest to master out of these, and I'm not a big fan of her design overall) they still offer a healthy balance between fundamentals and killer specific skills. You still need to run tiles properly, but their kit goes deeper than that. This is my favorite kind of design, and Huntress/Oni/Billy/Demo are probably my favorite designs in the game, but I do acknowledge the game needs simpler characters than that too.
So we have the basic killers. The killers that get most of their downs and wins by straight up running loops and M1ing. But even among these killers there are still things to master. Trapper has a high-ish ceiling because trap placements are vitally important to him, and you can get creative with that. Doctor is very simple, but well timed shocks involve skill expression and you can lose a lot of time if you mess up. Stealth killers need to be creative on their approach to be effective. Plague is weirdly inbetween because you still have to hit her projectiles and make decisions regarding fountains, and so on.
The remaining killers are my least favorite designs. You have Legion, a dumpster fire of a killer that probably will never be strong without being unhealthy. Bubba, which was clearly a rushed and uninspired release and serves as a lower barrier of entry, albeit extremely weaker, version of Billy. But by far, in my opinion, the biggest offenders are Clown and Freddy. Their power takes away the skillful aspect of the pvp part of the game, which is mindgaming tiles (the ones that can be mindgamed at least). Clown is what happens when you design a character with a power tailored to make the game less skillful, while still ending up with a very weak character. Freddy is what happens when you make a character like that strong by putting a bunch of base power with little skill involved into his kit. Like, compare his teleport to Demo's. Even this specific part of their powers makes Freddy take way less skill, because his teleport takes you exactly where you need to be, no questions asked, while Demo has to plan ahead.
People can say as much as they want that "their powers are very different", "you can do distinct things with Clown", etc, but they operate in fundamentally the same autopilot way, take way less skill in chases than the other killers and while the difference between an average and a good player with these characters exists, it is way smaller than it should be.
Freddy seems overpowered because anyone can pick him up and perform well with him, as long as the player knows the very basics of the game. But imo he's not even top 5 when considering great killers facing great survivors. I don't think he needs nerfs, I think he needs adjustments to make him less autopilot and more skillful.
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Not that you played perfectly, but in my opinion Preschool is one of the most survivor sided maps after the biggest offenders got fixed or semi fixed. There are 3 very strong buildings, and even though the filler pallets are unsafe survivors can gain quite some time by just camping them.
The fact that we're stuck with F I V E variations of that dumpster fire is just icing on the cake.
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You can't make reliable observations in two days.
Like seriously. Is the urge to complain this intense?
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Oni's ability is considerably better. Like, if Oni had his power at all times, he'd be disgustingly OP.
A good Oni still has a chance at winning even if he only gets his power when there are 2 gens left. No other killer can say this imo.
But he's very snowball reliant and his early game sucks a lot. Billy is more consistent and a great Billy can curve around a lot of loops, just not nearly as many as Oni.
In my opinion Billy is still slightly better just because he's probably the best early game killer in the game and gives up absolutely nothing to achieve this. Both are more map reliant than the other top tier killers, and that's probably the only true downside they have, besides Oni's early game. But both have a high skill ceiling and are extremely strong.
Sometimes I feel like Oni is how Billy's kit would be if he were a modern killer. I love both designs, but I still think Oni's is better because he has a lot of counterplay but huge windows of power where he can just obliterate everyone. He has very defined strengths and weaknesses, while Billy is a more consistent with higher lows but lower highs.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1243570#Comment_1243570
Taunting isnt exactly the issue here. Its being able to bodyblock a survivor from midway of the map all the way to the exitgate after opening the exit gates without anyone being at risk from being downed unless you run NOED and they didnt cleanse the bones.
It's too riskless during a period where the killer's pressure should have snowballed to that point. If you destroyed the killer in general, then there wouldnt even need to be a bodyblock like that. If 1-2 survivors heavily outclass the killer, then they can bodyblock the killer to protect 2 survivors, of which at least one would have been downed.
It's not about the tbag, its not about the emotes, its about a game mechanic that should be equal to risking your chance at escape in favor of ensuring 3 other people escape. And if you play it properly and didnt waste resources, you actually get rewarded for that. Just like saving a pallet early game tends to reward you having saved it late game.
If you made it to the very end of the game without killing anyone, then kills SHOULD be very hard to secure.
Just like the game naturally evolves to the point where you hard win 90 out of a 100 games if you killed someone before more than two gens are done. I don't see a problem with that.
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Like, between t-bagging, emotes, etc, every single multiplayer game has some sort of "rubbing it in" interaction when you win/want to tilt your opponent, and I've never seen a community more sensitive to this than the DBD community. It's very weird.
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If the exit gate created any problems besides a survivor pressing ctrl repeatedly and you for some reason tilting out of your mind this could be a discussion, but that's not the case.
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Oh, yes, stop complaining about the thing that's frustrating to you.
Only I, an intellectual killer main, have the right to complain about every single small thing that minorly inconveniences me in the game because I, unlike you, am big brain.
Stop complaining, only killer players get to complain.
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@Dr_doom_j2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228339#Comment_1228339
So it's better to go the Vox populi route?
It's better to think and analyze things for yourself and form your own opinion instead of taking whetever the devs, or streamers, or anyone says as gospel just because they're in a position of "authority". It's fine to take what these people say into account to form your opinion, it's not fine to come here and say "hey guys X or Y is fine because the devs said so, suck it up".
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230346#Comment_1230346
You should probably read that quote a little more critically.
If the best players in this game are good SWF players, then by the same logic applied by the quote means that the game would be based off of them. The same holds true for the killer side as well.
If this game was properly balanced, solo queue wouldn't be painful because you wouldn't have bad survivors in high ranks. The ranking system would solve itself. Bad players that have no concept of teamwork would be in the low ranks, and good players with a knowledge of the game and teamwork would be at the top.
This is the elegance of balancing the game around the best players, because then there's a definite point where the devs can go 'ok this [whatever] is being abused too much, we have to change it.'
You need to understand that the ranking system and the failure to implement a proper one is by far the most fundamental issue with this game, and most other issues this game has with balance could be ironed out with a proper ranking system.
I love that you talk as if I'm not familiar with that concept when I've had talks like this with multiple people here before, and probably will have more in the future. I'm just not going in depth in a subject that has nothing to do with the original point of the thread.
You're not bringing any revolutionary ideas here with that, it's a very well known concept.
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230338#Comment_1230338
And basing the game on the general playerbase is by far the worst thing you can do in game design, especially in a pvp game.
I'm not even going to get into this discussion here. Just know that I'm perfectly familiar with this concept and I don't think DBD should adopt it while the game sucks at other basic balance things.
Until the SWF-Solo gap is smaller there's no point in following that.
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230312#Comment_1230312
It is very easy to carry as a solo survivor.
If you think that having a small minority of the population being absolutely oppressive is fine, we just have different opinions on game philosophy.
I think this video needs to be constantly posted here because many problems with this game would be solved by it.
in fact, just between forum posts, i was able to run a killer for 3 gens with only using 2 pallets, and im not that good of a survivor player.
Congratulations, you either faced a terrible killer or had an OP setup then. Your anecdotal evidence doesn't extrapolate to the general playerbase.
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Yeah Bloodlust is an awful mechanic. But some maps are even more awful.
I think Bloodlust should absolutely go away in the future, but we need time to see how the map changes end up working, while also fixing some maps that were missing in the last update. You can't drop a million different changes at once, like they explained in the stream. You need to make changes gradually to be able to see what effect they have, while also keeping the ability to observe which changes produce which results.
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230273#Comment_1230273
But the underlying problem to your argument is that ultimately a good survivor group will have a very high survival rate against a good killer. The only balancing factor that survivors have is the weak link on their team because this game does a poor job putting people in a rank that they belong.
A survivor that knows how to play is very oppressive in their own right 1v1 vs a killer. Usually, if the other 2 survivors know how to hit skillchecks, if you are unfortunate enough to run into the 2 good survivors on a team, you have already wasted enough time for those two survivors to throw the game in their favor, even if you abandon the chases quickly.
The simple fact of the matter is that survivor is very laid back. There's a reason why most of the streamers for this game play survivor, because you can effectively be distracted and doing something else while also having an extremely easy time surviving even solo.
The only part of the game where killer is oppressive is in the lower ranks where survivors barely even know how to hit skillchecks.
I have tried to get friends to play this game but they cite the fact that this game is too heavily survivor sided and thus not fun as their reasons for not playing. This isn't even an opinion, there's a reason why killers get bloodlust, because the game is broken in the survivors' favor.
Carrying as solo survivor only exists when broken setups exist. Unless the killer misplays horribly, there's no way a single survivor can last long enough to "1v1 comfortably" in newer maps without OP connected tiles.
I don't have the numbers on that but the streamer population proportion probably matches the general playerbase proportion. This game needs to be roughly 4 survivors to 1 killer in order to work. Besides, I've seen many killer streamers roflstomp survivors while playing attention to chat and stuff. It's because those people are obscenely good at the game when compared to the general player and nothing else. Of course the role where you interact with your opponent for 25 ish% of the match is gonna be more laid back, but that's, once again, a design thing not a balance thing.
And all of that goes out the window when talking about snowball killers. A killer can win a game just as quickly as they can lose it as most killers. If every single killer was at a power level of, let's say, Huntress and above, this game wouldn't be survivor sided anymore besides very few deathsquads, which are far too uncommon to have the game be balanced around them.
If you're facing an average red rank solo survivor squad you absolutely do not need a weak link in order to win. Then you can argue that some red rank survivors don't belong at red ranks, to which I respond that quite a few red rank killers don't belong at red ranks either, because the ranking system is awful.
One more thing: bloodlust was created primarily because of infinites and god loops. It belongs less and less in the game the more maps get updated.
"But the underlying problem to your argument is that ultimately a good survivor group will have a very high survival rate against a good killer." If the survivors are on comms, yes, but we all know information is too important in this game. If they're not, I'd be willing to bet a good player playing a good killer might have the edge.
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230245#Comment_1230245
I think the problem is that the game just doesn't force survivors to learn it. You don't need to understand the intricacies of pathing, anti gen patrol, looping, or with the recent ruin nerf, even finding totems because totem perks are so weak. The only thing you really need to learn how to do as a survivor is hit skill checks and be able to approach a hook and unhook someone. You're given plenty of perks to mitigate any problems you have with looping the killer or being chased by the killer. The fact that the majority of totems spawn in quite plain sight also exacerbates this, so when survivors feel forced to learn where totems are, they can just rely on how common it is for a totem to spawn near a gen and use the gens as markers.
So while it isn't explicitly laziness, it's more of a lack of real challenge the game gives survivors so they feel like they don't have to do totems, they can just slam gens and reliably survive just basically doing that.
You can argue the exact same thing for both sides. Truth is, the game does a poor job teaching people fundamentals - tiles, pathing, patrolling, when to give up chases, when it's safe to save or not. I don't blame the devs too much because those things are highly nuanced and subjective, but there are both survivors who rank up by playing immersed, doing gens and leaving without interacting with anyone else and killers who rank up by hard camping and tunnelling without learning how the game works from within. The core difference is that in these forums survivors are entitled and should "git gud" while killers are somehow victims of game design and shouldn't be held accountable for their own failures. As long as we have double standards like this being so widely accepted here, it's very hard to have productive discussions.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230252#Comment_1230252
This is pretty nuanced and well written. I 100% agree, and I'm also pretty disappointed that so many people are ignoring the fact that the NOED "conflict" represents the community's opinion of the swf-solo gap and that when the community agrees that NOED is fine they are agreeing that the swf-solo gap is fine.
The same people that argue that solo should be brought up to the same level as SWF to buff killers are creating these empty, upvote bait discussions and it's hilarious and sad at the same time. People really don't like checking their own biases.
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Oh yes, from the creators of "just mindgame the Spirit", the conitnuation to the critically acclaimed series "there's no problem with the design, it's the players that have been playing for literal years that don't know how to deal with this thing that has been around for just as long".
Yep DS is fine too, just don't tunnel xD. SWF is fine, just apply more pressure. Keys are fine, just kill the survivors before they find the hatch.
The devs aren't gonna come out and say "so guys, that design was garbage, so we'll change it". It's not a good look for them. They said for years that gen speed was fine, they said in the past that infinites were fine because they took skill, they seem to think DS is in a good place, they even said Legion was in an okay spot. So unless you're willing to accept all those things as true, stop appealing to authority and acting like the devs always know what's best. They're humans just like us.
Maybe think a bit about why people are complaining instead of just assuming they're all wrong and you're right. What tilts the everliving frick outta me is the lack of nuance in every single "just do the bones xD" post. No consideration as to how much different information works when concerning solos vs SWF is the main offender of this. Until there's a clear feedback so that all survivors know how many dull totems have been cleansed, it's not a secondary objective, and it's not fair nor balanced that solos have to do all totems to make sure they're done while SWF just gets that information for free.
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DBD has always been about time management. The difference is that now the devs are focusing on changing things that skew the time management game in favor of one side or the other too much.
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Legion should've never been released imo. Until they're willing to completely rework Legion they shouldn't put too many resources into that hot mess. There are other salvageable killers to worry about.
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It's fine to have a different opinion. However, it's necessary to understand that your opinion won't be immune to criticism if you post it in a forum that solely exists to discuss various things DBD related.
So yeah. You're entitled to your opinion, but you don't exactly have the right to be upset when people disagree with you and engage in discussions trying to convince you (and other people) that said opinion isn't correct. That's what forums are for.
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228616#Comment_1228616
I didn't watch Otz's stream, but I saw comments on this thread saying that at the end of it, Otz said that all the second chances, including survivors ones, should be removed. Of course, the OP completely ignored this and started to talk only about things who are unfun for the survivors, but not for the killer.
Last but not least, I know very well this user to know how biased (s)he is. In other threads, (s)he literally said things like "I hope devs nerf Billy into the ground, pls devs do it" and "DS isn't a good anti-tunnel perk because it's a skill check which survivors can miss".
So I think I rest my case.
I mean, yeah, I get being especially suspicious of someone based on their other posts. I know very well how that is, even concerning some people who replied in this thread. I get what you're saying.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/145920/otzdarva-s-stream-today
The counter to noed isn't any of meta perks. DS,BT,Exhuastion perks do not help you against NOED. There is only one perk that counters NOED and that perk is Detective Hutch. You need to cleanse all or as many totems as possible before it activates and If you want to do it in a timely matter, than your going to need aura reading on totem locations. The problem with NOED is that perk functions like quest mechanic for survivor without telling the survivor that the quest is active. It is like playing a FPS shooter but when you win, you suddenly need to complete a puzzle game within shooter to win.
Just to go a bit off-topic, Decisive strike is a quest mechanic perk for killer. It essentially ban the killer from picking up a survivor within 60 seconds without notifying the killer whether the survivor has the perk. If survivors choose to always assume that the killer has NOED, then the survivor team has to play inefficiently at the objective and therefore can risk losing on primary objective as NOED consumes your teammates time for cleansing dull totems. If you never cleanse dull totems, than the perk always activates an powerful reward. The same truth applies to Decisive strike, If you obey the rule, than you delay the survivor's death in which they could potentially hurt you and disregarding the existence of the perk awards the survivor free instant heals.
This is the reason in a nutshell why survivors and killers both hate NOED and DS. They are perks that grant powerful rewards while always granting psychological reward that indirectly impedes each other's objective. They have counter play but their counter play ultimately hurts you in the long run. Otz does not need to prove whether DS or NOED are overpowered. Everyone knows they are strongest perks in the game.
I hadn't thought of it this way but it makes quite a bit of sense. Perks that force the player to play in a drastically different way than they normally would are generally disliked, especially the ones whose mere threat do that (the safe play would be to always play around both). I think they would be less hated if killers got actually rewarded for going for different survivors and survivors had more reasons to cleanse totems other than just NOED. That's particularly why besides just adding a totem counter I'd love more killer and survivor perks that interacted with dull totems.
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@GrannyonAcid said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228630#Comment_1228630
You also were the one that said that Dead Hard is a second chance perk. And said that it leads to a killers losing games and compared it to NOED in some weird twisted way. You were actually the first post I've ever noticed on the forums that pretty much said, "EXHAUSTION PERKS TOO OP!"
Pretty sure if you had input on balancing this game would be as dead as Evolve.
Yeah all his posts involve complaining about survivors and acting like everything killer wise in this game is healthy. Not worth anyone's time tbh
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228383#Comment_1228383
I was just pointing out OP's extremely biased opinion, nothing more.
I already said in other NOED related threads that a totem counter would make NOED more fair against solo survivors. From what I seen, you seem to share the same opinion.
Sorry, but I still think your comment was unnecessary. That doesn't prove that OP is biased at all. He saw footage of Otz playing in a certain way and wants to discuss it here. The fact that Otz complained about DS in a separate ocasion is completely irrelevant to this specific discussion, and chances are OP wasn't even aware of it. Hell, I didn't even know Otz said anything like that, even though I share some of the same opinions on DS.
This is just not the way to foster a healthy discussion. Fostering the "us vs them" mentality here does nothing but harm to the community.
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@Steah said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228590#Comment_1228590
You said that unless a totem counter is implimented then it shouldn't exist in it's current interaction.
If there is no totem counter, please tell me how you would change NOED
I honestly don't know. I didn't suggest any nerfs because I don't think it needs to be nerfed. I think a totem counter or like someone else suggested a notification when a dull totem gets cleansed is necessary. I do think the perk is unhealthy in its current iteration but that's because solo survivors don't get a clear counterplay to it, unlike what people seem to suggest. I also don't think there's a way you change the perk without making it too weak, to the point where survivors would just ignore it.
The problem with NOED is the counterplay for solos, not the effect.
Since I particularly dislike endgame builds I'd rather have gens take significantly longer but perks that rely on the endgame be made significantly weaker, but I know that's not gonna happen so I don't ask for it here.
I also thought Ruin was unhealthy because it affected bad survivors more than good survivors, but I was still against reworking it when they did because I preferred them to rework maps first. You can acknowledge something isn't good for the game without wanting it to be completely removed right away.
So basically I'd be kinda disappointed if they just nuked the perk instead of implementing a totem counter, just like I was disappointed when they dropped the ruin rework before reworking maps. They got to maps now, but I think they could have done both at the same time and it was a mistake by them.
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@Steah said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228512#Comment_1228512
Think critically? You are advocating for nerfing a perk that is maybe active for 5% of the game, and has clear a clear counter play to it. Even if you don't cleanse all the totems finding NOED isn't that hard because the majority of totem spawns are super obvious. The whole reason NOED is being used is because without old ruin the game is still way too fast unless the survivors are legit throwing themselves at the killer.
Do you have a suggestion to make other options more attractive for killer? No, you just want NOED nerfed because you don't like it and refuse to do its counter play and then say everyone who disagrees with you is salty, not thinking critically and their argument has no merit. Pathetic
Please show me where specifically I advocated for a NOED nerf. I'd love to see that, because all I've been saying in here is that I think the game should have a totem counter so that solo survivors have the same information to work with that SWF have.
If killers truly are running NOED because games go by too fast, then they should be DELIGHTED that survivors are spending time looking for and cleansing all the totems. I wouldn't call that an effective nerf.
So unless you're running NOED for entirely different reasons, like, say, getting free kills when you fail to prevent survivors from doing all gens, then I'm not advocating for nerfing everything. Stop putting words in my mouth when you can't reply to what I actually said.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228553#Comment_1228553
"You called me out on my bullshit, what a child"
What bullshit? Please elaborate.
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@AbsolutelyAmel said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228556#Comment_1228556
So if im proud that they feel 'miserable' for failing at bulling me, i'm toxic?
totally makes sense 👌
I mean, you just made a game complete garbage for everyone because you assumed one or two people played with low rank friends to bully you.
That sounds... toxic
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@AbsolutelyAmel said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228541#Comment_1228541
Im sure you have all the reason to get upset over a topic targeting toxic players :)
I mean, besides the fact that I'm not upset and just laughing at how proud you were of making other people miserable, do you think you're really in a position to complain about toxic behavior with what you said in this post?
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228531#Comment_1228531
Then run Kindred. I'm getting real tired of survivors bitching about Killer perks and behaviours while refusing to use the perks to counter them.
"Just run Lightborn or Franklins if you hate flashlights so much"
"I don't want to run Calm Spirit just to counter Doctor, he needs a nerf"
"NOED sucks because I can't do bones, but I don't WANT to run Small Game or Detective's Hunch, they're meme perks!"
I don't want to run Kindred to see if a Killer is camping or not, I want campers to be punished!"
I swear to God, can salty people in these forums make A SINGLE POINT without resorting to "well, the other side complains about it so I can too"? Are we really trapped in a kindergarten time loop?
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228480#Comment_1228480
Better tied to a perk than to just give out the information for free to everyone. That doesn't make sense to me, to just hand out the information "because SWF gets it". SWF gets a lot of thing solos don't, that's not an excuse to make it part of the base game. Otherwise might as well delete like 75% of the survivor perks from the game and make them base kit. I'm pretty sure even you would agree that's unnecessary.
I'll agree that it's unnecessary to give away all the information perks give but quite frankly, when introducing new things to the game, I'd prefer it if the devs did stuff that brings SWF and solo closer together instead of not doing so.
Also what's wrong with giving that specific kind of information for free? A lot of games follow the trend of moving away from memorization and literal time counting in order to emphasize in strategic and mechanical aspects. I'm not saying it's always the right decision, but I don't think the game would get any less deep by introducing a totem counter in comparison to what we have now. If anything, it would make things more strategic, like choosing whether or not to deal with NOED and find the lit totem afterwards. Right now, for solos, it's just "welp I did like 3 totems let's pray the others are done too" and then bam, exposed.
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@AbsolutelyAmel said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228528#Comment_1228528
I literally asked them and they confirmed that they were doing exactly that.
It's not such an uncommon thing.
Yeah I'm sure they were telling the truth.
Also I'll take your amazing one game sample size anecdotal evidence and double up with my MASSIVE 20-ish game anecdotal evidence of me and my bf, rank 1s, playing with my sister and her friend, rank 15s, for fun. Boom. Checkmate.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228522#Comment_1228522
Killers have a 24-32m TR, if you can't figure out that the Killer is camping by the time you're 20m away, I don't know what to say. Also, the majority of camping Killers do run NOED, generally because they're new and don't have any good perks unlocked.
So survivors have time to, while a single player is hooked, do all generators, all totems, and walk from the other side of the map until they're 20m away from the hook, come back and finish the objective and do the victory dance around shack?
Ngl you must be a REALLY good survivor player to bend spacetime like this
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@AbsolutelyAmel said:
It is blatantly obvious that quiet a lot red rank survivors pair up with low rank survivors so they get to bully low rank killers.
Clicking their flashlights, bagging their t's.
But yet, when they get COMPLETELY OWNED they whine about how much of a noob the killer is 😂
If a whole team tries to bully me while I am simply trying to do a challenge (not even trying really just to get the challenge and move on) You best believe I will camp and tunnel and do all the little nasties to not give you your little perverse online bully satisfaction.
Am I right, or am I completely right?
and yes
i feel good knowing right now they're probably really mad about loosing against a 'noob' killer.
#feelsgoodman
Yeah surely the entire world revolves around you. They're not playing with their less experienced friends for fun, they just want to hunt your low rank toochie down and bully you to oblivion.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228514#Comment_1228514
Your point being? Killers need to waste a perk slot for NOED, going with 3 perks for 90% of the game.
I thought we were talking about camping. Does every camping killer run NOED? Do you need NOED to camp?
Also yeah just walk towards the hook to check if there's a facecamping killer with no information as to where the other survivors are. It fits very well into the 'the survivors have time to do 15 gens, go to the moon and back and do the peppermint roll while the survivor dies, just get good"
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228442#Comment_1228442
Assuming the Killer doesn't have Insidious or is Ghostface, you should be able to tell that they're there just by their TR. If theres no TR when you go to the hook, one of the following is happening:
- The Killer has Insidious, with a 95% chance of being Bubba.
- The Killer is Ghostface or Pig hiding around a corner
- The Killer is a cloaked Wraith
- The Killer isn't camping
In the case of Wraith, just run away, he can't chase you too far or he'll risk losing his hook. If it's Ghostface or Pig, you should use your brain and look for them first. If it's Insidious Bubba(or even Bubba in general) you really shouldn't be going for the save anyway, since you KNOW he's gonna be there. You can also run Kindred, since it's been buffed to grant aura reading if somebody else gets hooked as well
Just run a perk for information SWF have for free 5head
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@Steah said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228318#Comment_1228318
Because NOED is only run because ruin got gutted and games go too fast.
Also is the plan just to keep whining about killer perks until they all suck? What's next, BBQ or Infectious Fright?
You know, that "argument" holds zero merit, It's a lot easier to think the entire world is against you than to think critically about things. That's why the "Oh wow, Spirit and Nurse got nerfed because survivors complained, now they're gonna nerf EVERY SINGLE KILLER, rip Billy" came up in the first place. And that didn't happen. You know why? Because the devs aren't evil entities that hate killer players. They want their game to be good, believe it or not.
Did they nerf EVERY SINGLE SURVIVOR PERK after reworking DS and nerfing MoM? No, they just nerfed the unhealthy stuff. Did they nerf every strong killer after nerfing Spirit and Nurse? No, they only touched forever Freddy, which was unhealthy.
Instaheals are gone, toolboxes got nerfed, and moris are still in the game. Does that mean the devs are killer sided?
The sooner you stop thinking everyone is out to get you and realize that other people playing the game are human too, the better.
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@Steah said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228274#Comment_1228274
These are the same people who unironically said "Just pressure gens bro" when ruin was nerfed
Yeah. Offering simple "solutions" to complicated problems as if no one ever though of that is extremely annoying.
What annoys me more is people coming here with "the devs said it's fine so stop complaining" as if the devs never got anything wrong with the game. Appeal to authority is one hell of a drug when it reinforces your own narrative.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228462#Comment_1228462
I mean, SWF is not infallible. They can make mistakes. My group is a bunch of really REALLY good survivors but we still ######### up from time to time. Sometimes royally.
I literally had a game where I had a map and my ONLY JOB was to cleanse all the totems (this was my job for the last like 10 games which I did no problems). Last gen about to pop my friend goes "did you get them all" I said yes. Pops it BOOM, NOED. We laughed (well I laughed, she was screaming at me, but came around and started to laugh at me for being incompetent). It was a hectic game and we had like 5 games in a row on MacMil so I just lost track (and somehow this totem didn't show up when I looked at the map the last time).
Point being, a counter removes all room for error. We don't need it. If it's tied to a perk (Small Game) or there is a map wide noise that requires you to track it yourself, then sure.
Again, I really really HATE the idea of tying something that can be achieved with communication to a perk. A good player messes up that way with comms maybe once every 50 games and that's it. But tying something SWF players have for free to a perk feels just ######### to me. I could fly with the map wide noise, even though I fundamentally disagree with it and think it's unnecessary "skill expression", but tying that to a perk is a no go to me.
It's like, oh, you're playing with friends, you get to run 4 chase perks/second chance perks. Oh, are you solo? Yeah, slap Kindred and whatever is used to track totem count in there, now you have two perks left. Don't want that? Play without information that SWF have for free. I can't agree with that and I hope the devs don't follow that direction with the game, otherwise we're gonna see the gigantic power gap between solo and SWF forever.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228445#Comment_1228445
They are NOT the same thing. Not at all.
If you have to track it yourself, there is room for error. "Did we do 5 totems or only 4? I was being chased half the game and missed it." This is SUPER common with exit gates. "I was mid-chase and didn't see where the gates are, HALP".
If there is a counter it completely removes any room for error. "Did we do 5 totems or only 4? Oh wait 4 because the number on my screen tells me." Gens are different because they are the MAIN objective, it's a bit necessary there.
Asking for a totem counter is like asking for a clock on the screen so you can track the EXACT timers on every perk. Or asking for exit gates to stay permanently lit for survivors so they always know where to go.
I can kinda see your point, but I still think there should be a counter.
I don't see a reason to keep things in the game in a way that favors SWF over solo survivors this much. It makes no sense to me and goes against everything this community asks for everyday.
Besides, the difference in the value of information is very different. With exit gates, you could potentially just die if you don't know where they are. It puts pressure on people and makes for interesting gameplay. For totems though, it just feels nitpicky making people memorize something else just for the sake of it.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228386#Comment_1228386
As a survivor main I really don't want a totem counter.
However it could be part of a perk, probably Small Game or something. I'd be fine with that. But at base, no.
Alternatively instead of any kind of counter add some kind of map wide sound effect for when a dull is destroyed. Then you know when a totem is done but have to keep track yourself.
I mean, that's exactly the same thing. You could remove the generator counter and everyone playing would still know how many are missing because of the notification. I see no point on this specific stance, but okay.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228421#Comment_1228421
It's only effective because the Survivors MAKE it effective. I guarantee a camping Killer will never, EVER get a 4k if the survivors use their brains and genrush the everliving hell out of the camper. Considering most Killers(myself included) consider anything under a 3k to be a tie at best, Killers will never "win". They will also never rise above brown ranks and will almost never score more than 15k BP.
It is effective because DBD is a game of information and solo survivors have considerably less information to work with than SWF. Unless every game starts being a SWF both camping and NOED are gonna keep being design problems.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228333#Comment_1228333
The devs can't and shouldn't do anything to prevent overly-altruistic survivors from being punished
The devs can,and should do anything in their power to make the game better and more skill intensive, and that involves making camping as obsolete and innefective as possible.
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@The_Bootie_Gorgon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228381#Comment_1228381
The devs think noed is in a good place. They have commented time and time again.
The devs think Legion is in a good place. They think current DS is in a good place. They used to think gen speeds were in a good place.Again, they used to think infinites were fine because they took skill.
Stop appealing to authority and start using your own brain to form your opinions. Don't use other peoples' words to argue for you.
No one needs you to come here and explain what the devs have said. Anyone can find their opinions if they want, but that's not what has been asked for here.
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@The_Horde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228374#Comment_1228374
Now that I agree wholeheartedly with. I didn't mean to imply I was against a progression tracker for totems, and I do think it would be a nice addition to bridge the gap between SWF and solo. As a solo survivor main myself I would love to have the at least some of the same information as SWF.
I've been of the opinion that totems should be a bigger part of the game for quite some time now. Add a counter, make more killer and survivor perks that interact with dull totems, and depending on how well it works make more totems spawn per match and make them easier to cleanse. There's no need to add a brand new objective to the game when there's a feature that has potential but has been very poorly explored for years now.