gantes
gantes
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Wraith's changes literally made him MORE viable.
He's not viable at rank 1? He can be with add-ons which is better than most killers.
And complaining about new Legion is definitely not valid. Wow, you have to work for your chases now and you still pip for free even if you kill only one person. I feel so bad for you.
If you want to complain about Legion or Plague not being fun to play, that's highly subjective, and in Plague's case I tend to agree. But neither of them are weaker than most of the other M1 killers.
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Wow God forbid a player with some kind of exposure uses it to suggest a good change to the devs
Better only use exposure for ######### memes and clickbaity titles right
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@ReneAensland said:
lol nerf all killers with no penalty to the survivor side so SWF can easily curb stomp all "mid tier" killers like our current mid tier killers that get curb stomped on a daily basis.
Sure, let's nerf all strong killers without compensation or reworking maps, survivors, perks. Your post is mind blowingly baffling.
Wanna know what I say when I see Trapper?
Gg.
Hag?
Gg.
Wraith?
Gg.
Doctor?
Gg.
C-Tier killers and you want Nurse to drop from S to C?
Nurse gives me and my SWF a challenge and maybe one of us complains but man, she's a rush.
The only True Killer in the game.
[Bad Word] off.
I see you've never faced a good Hag.
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So this is something that has been happening way too much online. it seems like every other match a killer will be using Ruin. It wasn't always like this.
You sure got some nerve to say your team was good and tell us that you spent the first half of a 45min game looking for ruin collectively.
I hope this is shitpost
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I still see Quentin more often than Tapp.
Jane is pretty rare too.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Based on what?!??
who else has made a successful asymmetrical horror game with similar concepts to DBD therefore qualifying them as more apt than BHVR?
Don’t be so disrespectful!
BHVR are constantly paving new territory in the asymmetrical gaming space. There’s bound to be bumps along the way.
That shouldn't make them immune to criticism.
And that doesn't mean they're above requesting input from experienced players like the overwhelming majority of games that require balancing.
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I honestly think being able to know beforehand you're facing a game with premades but having bonus% bloodpoints for killer would solve most of the problem.
I'd play a 4man in a heartbeat if I got extra bloodpoints, especially because I know the average SWF (90% of them) is just friends messing around and sometimes sandbagging the others. The 10% extra sweaty ones don't bother me that much.
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@Alther_Primus said:
Honestly after seeing them talk about Freddy on stream, I worry they may be walking a tightrope. It's sounding like Nu-Freddy is going to be more addon reliant than the Doctor, especially with the awful 60 second passive sleep. Action Speed Reducers are going to be useless with that insanely long sleep time, and even then they're pointless with the Wake Up Objects scattered around.
Also, since I got a chance to see the stream now, the fact that you have no way to control your intermittent appearances in the micronaps means that it's basically Spirit's passive phase, rather than a proper tool. Frankly, the only thing that's sounding even remotely threatening about Nu-Freddy is the Gen TP, and that has a ton of warning on it so it's whatever.
We're not sure how much warning it has atm. Even with like 4s-ish warning it's still a good map pressure tool depending on the range.
I know that losing stuff on his current kit can be frustrating, but everything about Freddy without add-ons is largely number dependent. We'll only have an idea of how good/bad it is until we have numbers on his abilities, on the intermitent image distance (I swear the dev on stream was more confused than us when talking about that, he said both 16m and 32m in various circumstances) and on how many traps he's gonna be able to place.
I think at least the concept of his abilities is solid enough that number changes can balance him quite well, unlike the current iteration.
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This thread should be pinned in the front page.
If you don't understand how one extra hit gained simply by being hit other times completely ruins the killer's momentum and can lose them the game, you do not play killer enough.
If you don't understand that a stun that uses a perk slot and only procs if the killer downs you again in 60 seconds so you might not get to use it is not unbalanced, and don't understand the impact that going for the same guy again has on the survivor's perspective, you do not play survivor enough.
This game is stressful by nature, and one side's fun usually comes at the other side's expense. If you play one side dramatically more than the other, your opinion is inevitably going to be biased. It's a natural process. That does mean, unfortunately, that your feedback is less valid and constructive than the feedback from someone who plays both sides when it comes to game balance.
In other multiplayer games, that are symmetrical, that's not the case. But it is on DBD.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/511847#Comment_511847
This is just wrong. Even with zero addons she is STILL the best killer in the game and way more than competitive.
This.
They could launch a patch that deletes all her add-ons and she'd still be the best killer in the game.
Thus, chill.
Even if they change her basekit, it'd probably be something small and maybe even a power neutral change instead of a nerf.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/511516#Comment_511516
Having some that can be added from perks is nice, it just has me worried about addon dependency which is a huge issue already that the majority of killers have.
Well, add-on dependency is a problem with the weaker killers, sure. I think a lot of the problems with them could be solved if you just added some of them as baseline (Trapper Bag for Trapper, Windstorm for Wraith, and please for the love of god everything that affects Pig's crouch).
I hope that instead of add-on dependecy Freddy ends up like Spirit who has a ton of really cool add-ons but isn't overly reliant on any of them. A man can dream.
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@Someissues said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/511833#Comment_511833
I am not going to lie though, on Red ranks most of the time you are forced to play Billy/ Nurse, other killers is just not viable vs competent SWF groups, also one of the biggest reasons why I derank
my plague is only like lv30 prestige 1, i'm going to prestige her to prestige 3 lv50 soon, most of the survivors i versed all uses the fountain, i have never seen anyone not used the fountains
I just hope the devs gets Ghostface right, as he will be the worst Killer if left as is
Nurse, Spirit, Billy are quite consistent at red ranks, and dedicated players can definitely pull of Hag and Huntress too.
Everything else is just not worth the risk though.
I have faith that Ghostface will be tweaked at least a little bit. I don't think they're entertaining the idea of releasing him in that dumpster fire form he's at.
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@Someissues said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/511813#Comment_511813
Did they really said about buffing Doc and Leatherface? that's a good call for sure
Leatherface in particular, having been released till now, only good at camping and dungeon, needs some love badly
Some of the Plague add-ons aren't that bad, the ones with considerately increased effectiveness, a small puke and they will be now broken. Leatherface add-ons are really bad in comparison
Exactly.
If they change Plague, I think it doesn't need to be just a buff. It could be power neutral or a slight buff by shifting her power in a way that she gets to use Corrupt Purge more. That'd make her a LOT more fun to play, and the main reason why she feels weak is because her using her power is too decided by survivors. If she could use Corrupt Purge more, even if something else about her got toned down, people would be a lot happier I think.
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Make ONE extra blink Ultra Rare. She does not even need more than 3 blinks in most situations, and she gets many many hits she should never get by having extra blinks.
Nerf the range add-ons. Big maps are no excuse for the absurd range she gains by stacking them.
Make her other add-ons actually decent (maybe nerf her base lunge and have add-ons that increase lunge range after her power like Spirit kinda does; anything creative/that changes her gameplay the way other killers' add-ons change the way they play too). Her other add-ons are extremely boring and that's part of the reason why extra range and extra blinks are the only ones worth using (besides them being BS of course).
I definitely don't think they should aim JUST to nerf her. Her design has a lot of potential for cool add-ons but she doesn't have that. If they change her right she's probably gonna be more fun to play and play against.
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Plague is not good at rank 1.
That isn't a problem with Plague, that's a problem with the game.
Out of the killers that aren't viable in red ranks Plague is probably the best.
I still think she kinda needs help, but we have a long line of killers who need it more.
In the last Q&A stream they said Nurse, Doctor and Bubba are probably next on the update line, which is actually good priorities if you ask me. They can't work on everyone at once.
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And he still has add-ons that slow down action speed (less than the stupid amount right now).
As for the aura reading going away, they merely took power out of his dream world, which is fair because his ENTIRE POWER BUDGET is there in the current iteration (since he does nothing to awake survivors, that's a necessity). Now that he's gonna be a normal killer when survs are awake and will be able to warp to gens, it's only fair that dream world doesn't have as much loaded in it as it does in live.
I love the direction they're taking with the updates (first Legion, now Freddy). Making the killers more powerful baseline so that their powers don't have to be overloaded for them to exist in the game.
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As killer I get hit by it maybe 1 out of 5 games, and there's always one in the end game lobby.
IMO 1. it's still good and it does its job of making killers tunnel less merely by existing and 2. it has plenty of room to be played around.
As far as meta survivor perks go, it's the most balanced probably.
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They said during a Q&A stream that the Enduring changes occured so that they can balanced other stun effects in the game to a single value where they don't over/undershoot (like what happened with DS).
So we should expect DS changes in the future. If we don't get them, by all means, we have to constantly remind the devs of what they said.
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@weirdkid5 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/507440#Comment_507440
Well. To that statement, I also tend to believe not a lot of people at Rank 1 honestly deserve to be there. Persistence is really the key to getting there more than anything.
Plus, you can definitely tell when someone has been carried to Rank 1 by their SWF squad. I too don't really have too many problems going against Nurse. The only thing I dislike is her teleport increase addons.
I honestly get ######### up by Freddy more than Nurse. But that's because Freddy actually decimates solo survivors if he decides to tunnel you.
That's perfectly fair. I honestly believe that until we have a proper ranking system and statistics not affected by the absolutely disgusting disconnect numbers, having any discussion about balance is pretty tough. And Nurse definitely doesn't care about whether you're a solo or not as much as other killers, so I can see why you can "carry yourself" as survivor against her more often than against some others.
In my mind, I do think the Nurse removes too much agency from survivors, the same way good survivors remove agency from weaker killers. Balancing an asymetrical game is tricky, and I do think that if we're ever gonna get a killer balance pass (which seems pretty unlikely at this point) she deserves some nerfs, along with one or two more killers, while most of the killer roster deserves to be buffed.
EDIT: and in the same way that some survs get carried to red ranks by SWF, I know for a fact that it's pretty easy for someone hardstuck at purple ranks playing bad killers can just whip out a pocket Nurse and skyrocket to rank 1. I believe that's a problem in itself. You should either have to be dedicated at a killer to climb with them or be able to climb with anyone if you're good at killer in general (which I think is more fair).
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@weirdkid5 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/507415#Comment_507415
A gigantic majority of Survivors are also at extremely low ranks, around 16-20.
So just because someone lacks the skill to do something doesn't mean the thing that beats them should be nerfed.
I'm sorry, to make it clear: every time I talk about balance, I'm talking about red ranks, because every game should be balanced around the highest level first.
And I still think what I said applies to the highest level in this game.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/507396#Comment_507396
Quite a few. I actually have less success at dodging other killers' M1 hits.
Glad that's the experience you have, but I'm willing to bet it's not the same for the gigantic majority of players.
Taking into account that with the right setup it should take at least over 40 seconds for any other killer to down you (barring outliers like Spirit or Hag with proper setup), I heavily doubt she takes more than that in average.
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How many rounds of blinks can you dodge from a decent Nurse before she downs you? Does it EVER take more time than any other killer? On average, is there any killer who can down you faster? With the map pressure she has too?
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Determining what should and shouldn't be considered unhealthy gameplay (unless for downright toxix behavior, which is common sense) is the dev's job, not ours.
Just like they patched out facecamping and harshened the camping penalties. Boom, you don't pip if you camp. They deemed camping unhealthy, they made the changes to make it even less efficient than it was.
If they deem tunneling unhealthy (which I think they should, to some degree) it's their job to introduce mechanics and punishments to make it suboptimal. Because right now, if the target makes themselves easy, it's optimal gameplay to erase someone from the game, period.
I like DS's new design because of that. It makes tunneling more dangerous and you actually might shoot yourself in the foot by doing it.
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I think it just comes to a point where you need to question your balance decisions, you know.
The top two killers in this game essentially are top tiers because of the sheer amount of agency they remove from survivors.
The only thing that limits a good Nurse's potential is the player themselves. A lot of top players have been saying that for ages. And the same sort of applies for Spirit when sounds are not broken. And pre-rework Legion was pretty much that too, with the impossible to lose chases + Legion being Legion in the pipping system, people were abusing the hell out of them to pip.
And the bottom tier killers suffer from the opposite, they have too much agency taken away from them.
That's not healthy design/balance and that's what they should be aiming to change. I think the recent reworks are a step in the right direction.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/506046#Comment_506046
Being hard justifies being rewarding. That's basic game design/balance.
Rewarding =/= OP.
Something doesn't get the right to being unbalanced because it's hard to learn. Learning one character in specific doesn't make you entitled to win all the time.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/505666#Comment_505666
Isn’t that a contradiction? You have to be decent to play the nurse.
Yes, you do have to be decent do play the Nurse.
The gap between a decent Nurse and a good Nurse is still huge though, and if you're just decent you're still better than most killers at high ranks, no matter how good their players are.
Being hard doesn't justify being OP. That's basic game design/balance.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
Fun fact - Sheltered Woods is tied for second largest map in game - but nobody calls that one "survivor sided"
Size isn't everything
Giggity.
Well, Shelter Woods is not so much a map as much as a ginormous dead zone so that's probably why.
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Again, she is not weak. She's unfun to play and a design letdown overall.
Move some of her power towards Corrupt Purge (and being able to use it consistently) and she's just fine.
Saying she's worse than Wraith, Doctor and Trapper is a joke. She plays like Tier 3 Myers for most of the time. Her problem is player satisfaction, no power. She seems weak because, well, which M1 no mobility killer doesn't?
Reminder: being mid tier isn't inherently bad, it just sucks in this game.
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About the changes on map philosophy and distribution of pallets, will the changes benefit some weaker M1 killers? Is buffing those killers at high ranks a priority for the team atm? (they're pretty bad at red ranks).(I value watching good players more than kill rate stats atm because of dcs)
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My problem is: players who aren't even that good with her can still win more often than not at high ranks with her, and that shouldn't happen imo. Especially with a high ceiling killer.
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Not going into the merit of her being unbeatable or not (especially because unbeatable is a pretty strong word), but the "survivors rely too much on loops" thing doesn't hold up.
If there was some magical, consistent counterplay against her in high level I'm pretty sure we'd see it being used all the time in red ranks and she wouldn't be used so much by players who can't climb with anything else.
I personally do not think she's balanced at the highest level and has nowhere near enough weaknesses to compensate for her strenghts. The fact that most killers are downright bad at red ranks makes her look even more absurd, because she's way better than most.
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I don't even think she needs buffs, I think she needs tweaks.
She needs more opportunities to use Corrupt Purge. That's a huge part of what makes her fun.
If she needs power removed somewhere else, so be it.
The only way I have fun playing her is when I bring an apple and force survivors to cleanse and not get sniped with only one health state. Other than that, you're playing perma tier 3 Myers without the fun stealth part in the early game.
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When thinking about killer changes, we need to think where they're underperforming. Amanda isn't underperforming against average-bad survivors, I'm not sure any killer is. She, like most killers, needs help against really god survivors. Changing skill checks won't help. Changing her stealth/ambush attack might help.
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Exactly. You guys need to realize that, like with most killers in the game, Amanda remains competitive until like purple ranks?
Where she needs help (and most killers do) is against really good survivors. And really good survivors will be hitting great skill checks in gens 80%+ of the time, so they will have no trouble whatsoever with her Jigsaw Box skill checks.
On top of that, if you overcomplicate the skill checks at the boxes, it will make her OP against average-to-bad survivors. So it's a lose-lose situation.
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@HatCreature said:
@gantes Don't use them together? It sounded pretty risky so I'll take your word for it thanks.
In my experience at least, survivors will simply have an excuse to look for Ruin during the first two minutes, so you end up having one perk worth of game delay for the price of two.
Not worth the extra slot, especially with how good some other killer perks are.
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Dark Devotion is extremely meh. Don't recommend it.
Infectious Fright is OBSCENE on the Nurse. I can't stress this enough. With her slugging capabilities this perk is one of the best on her atm imo.
Corrupt Intervention is pretty staple on Hag and Trapper nowadays, on everyone else you're better off with Ruin. Don't recommend using both at once ever.
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I think she deserves a full blown add-on update.
The crouch/ambush part of her kit is technically half of her power, but we have very few GOOD add-ons that affect that.
Imo she should have bonus movespeed while crouch add-ons, longer range on ambush attack add-ons and maybe even an ultra rare instadown on ambush attack add-on. And maybe we should retire the skill check on Jigsaw Boxes add-ons. Against decent players they're worthless.
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@CallMeSpidey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/503532#Comment_503532
They are.
Getting hit after dropping down a pallet is fun and fair.
Getting hit after they're down shouldn't happen. (and it doesn't except for extreme lag scenarios).
Getting hit during the drop animation is intended gameplay, just like getting hit during medium vaults. It even matches the darn visuals.
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@Toxicity23 said:
I do agree with all this, however, there are 2 killers I have an issue with.
Doctor: The effects of Shock therapy DO happen immediately, either your timing is incorrect, or one of you (or both) could be suffering from lag. No offense, but you miiiight need to work on your timing.
Clown: The Clown's bottles are meant to be "Fire and Forget", not a Worse Huntress. He doesn't need a Buff, nor does he need a Nerf. He's good where he is. The goal with the bottles is to NOT hit the survivor with the bottle, you just need to get them into the gas.
I'm not sure the Clown is good the way he is. I mean, sure, he's good in chases, but I don't think that overweighs his lack of map pressure. If the way his kit is meant to work is by winning chases fast to compensate for the lack of map pressure, I wouldn't mind a small buff for chases.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/503493#Comment_503493
I won't comment on the build, but the exact words regarding the speed on the dev stream were "When you activate it (Night Shroud), your terror radius shrinks to zero, and it makes it much more difficult to be detected by Survivors. On top of this, you're also moving at full speed, so 4.6 m/s." It's not until later that they mention the crouch.
Makes sense. But I mean, if Ghostface has the ability to have no terror radius and red stain while moving at 4.6m/s, I don't see why the Pig shouldn't be able to move faster while crouched. The point still stands... kinda?
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@TAG said:
Is there something I missed? The people on stream said that Ghostface moves at 4.6 m/s while using Night Shroud and that he also has the ability to crouch (among other things). They didn't say that he moves at 4.6 m/s while crouched.
If I'm mistaken my bad, but I'm pretty sure they said about him being able to move at normal speed while crouched. That's the feel I got from the dev build footage as well.
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Guys.
You do know that he'll be on PTB soon right
So
Maybe
Wait before declaring him dead before he's even out?
I think you guys are overreacting but I'm not even going to theorycraft his power before we can even try it.
EDIT: and please stop proposing changes before you can try him. Some of you sound like the folks asking for the DS timer to be 120 seconds because 60 "wasn't enough to avoid tunneling".
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What he means by unsafe are probably those pallets like the ones in Lery's, for example, the ones behind the pillars. Those ones you're screwed the moment you drop, because you're guaranteed to get hit if the killer's any good.
Those pallets are legit BS and pallets THAT unsafe shouldn't even exist imo. They're pretty much useless.
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@MegMain98 I think the thing is that MOST killers in this game are easy to learn.
Spirit, Nurse, Huntress and Hag have different parts on their kit what take a while to get a hold of, but other than them, the basic M1 killers have a very low skill cap.
However, every single killer also has the potential to have a high ceiling with mindgaming, moonwalking etc. I firmly believe that no killer is braindead when played at the highest level, because you simply cannot win without outplaying the survivors (that was an honor exclusive to old Legion). But other than the ones I mentioned above, none of them have a very high skill cap either. In fact, I think that by the nature of the chainsaw Billy might even have a higher skill cap than most basic M1 killers.
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Even if it doesn't just work for anti-tunneling it's just fine.
The person is using an entire perk slot (which is a bigger deal for survivors moreso than killers because the opportunity cost is higher) for a one-use perk that they might not even be able to use. I doubt anyone complaining about it have even tried using it as survivor. The amount of times that:
- the killer plays around it and slugs you
- the killer eats the stun and catches you afterwards anyway
- it runs out just as the killer gets to you
Is pretty damn high.
It's working as intended, has its clear uses and weaknesses and is nowhere near as opressive as MoM. In fact, I still think about it very hard before equipping it, since there's boosted MoM and Adrenaline which are the most meta survivor perks atm, then you probably want an exhaustion perk for chases and DS has to compete with many other perks for a situational fourth slot.
The amount of counterplay to this perk is pretty absurd, and those who complain about it are simply refusing to adapt.
And outside of late game scenarios, unless the survivor us shamelessly running toward you (which screams I HAVE DS) or someone unhooks them unsafely (which not only screams I HAVE DS but also MY RESCUER HAS BORROWED TIME so you should be going for them instead) you shouldn't be getting hit by it. A competent killer's life is generally too busy for that to happen unless it's one of the scenarios above.
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I think it's pretty smart for everyone actually
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This is not an airport, no need to announce your departure.
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@CallMeSpidey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/500352#Comment_500352
Killers DC when their totems spawn next to a survivor and it gets cleansed in the first 20 seconds of the match.
I've seen it, I'm sure you've seen it.
How would you explain that? You spawn to lose.
That's bullshit too.
You're running a hex perk. Accept the risk that it'll be cleansed right away.
@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/500352#Comment_500352
People DC for a bunch of reasons. Not all those reasons are because they don't want to lose or because of some childish reason.
Doesn't make it justifiable. I agree with them not punishing DCs harshly because the game is finnicky af, but when dedicated servers roll out DCs SHOULD be punished, like in any other multiplayer game. No matter why you do it, DCs ruin the health of any online multiplayer game. If you get so tilted that you have to DC, make you should take a time off the game to chill out a bit.
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4-man hyper tryhard rank 1 groups shouldn't be a standard of comparison for anything because it's the least common scenario.
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People don't DC about OP setups. People DC because they don't want to lose.
People DC when they're downed too fast, when their teammates rescue them unsafely etc.
Thing is, if you're not ready for the possibility of losing, DON'T PLAY THE DAMN GAME.
It's such an entitled, spoiled thing to do. "Well I'm probably gonna lose so bye". Every game has people winning AND people losing. Sometimes you'll lose. If you DC because of that you're a ######### competitor.