dugman
dugman
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Otz posted a good video recently for intermediate killers looking for advice to up their game
https://youtu.be/dKQXO7yFbLA -
At the top of the forum currently they have a note saying
We are currently experiencing issues where players get a "timeoutcreated" error. We are investigating server availability issues that might cause this error. Apologies for the inconvenience.
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@Justalittlepeeck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1579001#Comment_1579001
The stats aren't very precise. For example they don't take DC into consideration
I don't know what their internal stats look like currently because unfortunately there is no official stat site where you can look at average points or kill ratios by killer for instance. They release a blog post about twice a year or so I think but the last one of those was in November so... 🤷♂️
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@Justalittlepeeck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1578758#Comment_1578758
Spirit is like Nurse - terrible at finding survivors. That's her main weakness many survivors don't want and don't know how to exploit.
There's literally nothing a good Spirit can do to stealthy survivors without losing gamechanging amount of time, especially if they know how to avoid generic aura reading perks (hide behind gens&in locker to avoid BBQ, etc).
Yeah, it's boring, but that's how spirit can be effectively countered. She can't use her advantage in loops or in mobility if she doesn't see you entire match.
I recall having some rare Spirit games against stealthing survivors and these games were insanely difficult because I couldn't afford wasting time to find them as 110% killer as they hopped gens immediately when they made sure I'm gone.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Spirit is overpowered or unbeatable. I'm just saying that if the stats did hypothetically show she is overpowered then it's probably because of her combination of fast map travel and solid looping.
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I think Spirit having a mindgame advantage at loops is perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with some killers being better at looping than others, and there's nothing wrong with a killer forcing a survivor to have to make educated guesses about the killer's intentions to increase their chances of making a misplay.
To me, if Spirit needs a nerf, it's only because she is both excellent at loops AND has excellent map mobility. Her ability doubles as both a way to efficiently beat survivors in loops and a way to very quickly transition from one part of the map to another to extend her pressure. It's that double whammy of great at chases and great and map movement that makes her one of the top two or three killers in the game (along with Nurse and Freddy who are great for the same reason).
For example, Clown is also excellent at chases and loops. He can very efficiently get hits in chases and can basically force early pallet drops and still then potentially beat survivors at the loop after the pallet is dropped depending on its size. And that's great. ... But that's also all he has. Without a way to get around the map quickly he's limited in how much he can do when the survivors are spread out and he needs to spend time getting from one chase to another. Spirit in comparison can pretty much do it all.
Or on the flip side, look at Demogorgon. He can set up portals and get around the map really well, but his Shred is mostly situational so his efficiency at getting downs and beating loops isn't as good as Spirit's. And even though she can't teleport she can phase sprint very quickly when necessary.
So if Spirit is in fact overpowered based on her actual stats (which I have no idea if she is or not since there's no official stat site to compare killer's scores and kill percentages) then nerfing her should probably be either to make her not quite as good at loops OR reduce her ability to get around the map quickly but keep her able to do loops. An interesting idea for instance would be to make her phasing move her at 110% or 115% or 120% speed for a fairly short time but allow her to phase through objects. By phasing invisible through pallets and walls she could potentially still have an edge at loops like she does now, but by only moving at normal speed while phased it takes away the ability to cross the map quickly. (It also probably makes more sense thematically being able to phase through things but that's just my opinion.)
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@ZCerebrate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1578060#Comment_1578060
"Overcharge the Doctor's Perk -You are fuelled by your hate for progress.
by performing the Damage Generator action.
The next Survivor interacting with that Generator is faced with a tremendously difficult Skill Check
Failing the Skill Check results in an additional 3/4/5 % Regression penalty. Succeeding the Skill Check grants no progress, but prevents the Generator Explosion." If they fail that check the extra regression on the generator happens but people just straight up don't fail the overcharge check. If you meant the kick needs to be more powerful then run Pop goes the Weasel it's a Clown perk that's pretty meta
I mean it's really easy to hit that skill check over and over again if anything the only way to make this a hard check would be to randomize the the speed of the needle from any other skill check and make the success zone smaller - making it an actually difficult skillcheck. Also prevent you from hitting the check while running away after tapping the gen but make it an auto fail if they let go - just like a normal skill check.
The Overcharge skill check is shrunk by 60% though if you also run Unnerving Presence. With that combo the check is about the same size as hitting a Great skill check so it's a bit tricky. (I agree though that without Unnerving Presence the Overcharge check isn't too hard to hit.)
(Snapshot of the check using Unnerving Presence)
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I don't get mad, to me the survivor is just wasting their own time jumping in lockers trying to Head On when they could be doing gens or whatever. It's the same reason I don't get mad when people bring flashlights, survivors who bring flashlights tend to not actually do anything useful while they're trying to get flashlight saves or are clicking it to get your attention. In fact when survivors follow me around clicking the flashlight I intentionally ignore them and go after other survivors, that way I get to have two survivors off a gen for the price of one.
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@csandman1977 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1578525#Comment_1578525
20 seconds to find a totem. 12 or 14 to cleanse it. 8 to heal in a locker. Just use self care. Less time spent. Unless sloppy
Inner Strength does have one other minor benefit, it avoids being seen by Nurse’s Calling which is a fairly popular killer perk.
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This idea would just further encourage people suiciding on the first hook when they are mad they got downed.
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NOED is basically just a late game version of Haunted Grounds, it will get you one or maybe two downs if it works. Since about 60% of games end with 0-2 kills that means the gens are done in most games and NOED has a chance to activate, meaning that it’s not a sign of a “bad killer” as much as an acknowledgment that even good killers often go to this endgame stage when they play against good survivors. The main difference is just one gives the downs midgame, the other endgame.
And using an endgame focussed perk in general isn’t much different than using, say, Corrupt Intervention or Whispers to help you in the first minute or two of play. NOED simply helps in the last minute or two instead of the first. It’s really just a matter of personal preference when you’d like a perk to help out.
What’s funny to me though is that I get more downs and snowballing off Haunted Grounds than I do NOED, but I’ve never gotten a sore losing survivor complaining about Haunted Ground. Yet if I bring NOED they will trash talk it even if I won the game before the gens were done. It’s such a salt mine! 😄
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I haven't got a strong opinion on this yet. On the one hand, the killer knowing where the hatch will be makes it easier for them to close it after hooking the third survivor. On the other hand if the hatch is far from where the killer hooks the third survivor then the fourth survivor can just go straight there and be out before the killer can get there after the hook. And then there's the complication that survivors with keys will know exactly where to look and there's not much the killer can do about it other than hope they can down the key holder before the hatch appears.
So... they may be good for killer overall on average without keys but with keys they might favor survivors? Hard to say.
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When I bring a Red Mori I use it any chance I get, why would I bring it and not use it? It's nothing personal though, I'm not thinking "Man I hate people with TTV in their name, I'll bring the Mori just to kill them!" No, if I'm bringing it then it's either because I have a mission that requires me to kill people or I've got a bunch of spares and I just feel like using one since the animations are cool. 🙂 Normally though I don't bother bringing them since they interfere with certain missions and since you typically get slightly less bloodpoints in a match when you Mori survivors so I'd just as soon bring a Bloodpoint offering instead usually. (Or if I'm using Red or Purple add-ons I might use the Purple offering that lets me keep them after the match.)
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Hmm, my favorites at the moment for these two are kind of opposites: Pyramid Head is the "I want to ambush everyone" build and Doctor is "I want everybody to hear me coming"
Doctor "I want them to hear me coming"
- Distressing: Increases terror radius (which also increases the size of his Static Blast) and gives bonus bloodpoints
- Unnerving Presence: Skill checks within his terror radius happen more often and have 60% smaller ranges.
- Overcharge: Whenever you kick a gen the next survivor who touches the gen has to do a tremendously hard skill check or it explodes and regresses. This skill check is also reduced 60% by Unnerving Presence, making it about the same size as hitting a typical Great skill check on gen repair (i.e. pretty difficult, even for good survivors)
- Agitation: You carry survivors more quickly and while carrying them your terror radius is increased
The first three are kind of the core of the gimmick, Agitation could be replaced by Huntress Lullaby (which makes skill checks have quicker or no sound cues), Coulrophobia (which halves healing speed within your terror radius) or Overwhelming Presence (which makes equipment expire twice as quickly in your terror radius). Either way you try and defend one half of the map in the beginning of the game to set up for a 3- or 4-gen late game that is all going to be within your terror radius the entire rest of the game. The build is obviously gimmicky but it does work pretty well on most survivors except people who are really, really consistent at hitting Great skill checks on gens. (If you can hit a Great skill check every time then you can hit that 60% smaller Overcharge).
Pyramid Head "They won't hear me coming"
- Trail of Torment: Become Undetectable for 16 seconds after kicking a gen, has a cooldown.
- Tinkerer: Whenever a gen hits 70% completion you become Undetectable for 15 seconds and see an alert on the gen
- Nemesis: Whenever someone pallet stuns or flashlight blinds you they become Oblivious for 60 seconds
- Hex-Retribution: Whenever someone cleanses a dull totem they become Oblivious for 60 seconds. If they cleanse a Hex totem then all survivor auras are shown for 10 seconds
The idea is pretty simple - for much of the game you are either Undetectable or various survivors are Oblivious (or both). This is great for getting very close to survivors before they start to run away, making the first hit of a chase quick. Trail of Torment and Tinkerer would be the main two perks here. The first makes you Undetectable to head to a gen that's about to be done and ambush them. And then once you drive them off, you kick the gen and become Undetectable again and head to a different gen. The other two perks are optional, this build is the one that is going all-in on the meme. 🙂 A more practical combo is something like replace Nemesis and Hex-Retribution with Hex:Haunted Grounds (so when you ambush someone you also might get an exposed down or two) and Nurse's Calling or Bloodhound or Spies From the Shadows (i.e. a short range tracking perk of your choice)
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576541#Comment_1576541
I disagree. The counter to Clown is to drop pallets early. He either has to break them, or they can loop him since gas doesn't force slow vaults over pallets. Freddy will never run out of Snares, but Clown can run out of bottles.
Freddy's snares and Clowns gas have identical effects on vaults over pallets, there's no difference between the two. Freddy doesn't run out of snares, that's true, but Clown's gas lasts for 10 seconds which is more than enough time to run a loop around the pallet. And since Clown's gas covers a much wider area than a single Freddy snare he only needs one or two clouds to completely gas a loop. So almost any loop that Freddy can catch a survivor in after the pallet is dropped Clown can also catch them in. God pallets where the loop is so long that you have to break the pallet anyway are the only possible exception since the snares can last longer than the gas in a loop that might take a really long time to run. But in that case you're better off probably just breaking the pallet in the first place. (Not to mention Clown is more likely to keep the survivor from reaching the loop in the first place since he can slow them in advance while they run to it while Freddy usually has to place the snares as he gets there. Plus of course the weakness that Freddy's snares don't work on awake survivors.)
But I do agree that once the chase is done and Clown has to refresh the bottles, that's where he's worse than Freddy. The bottle refresh takes a while.
P.S. I'll probably leave this alone at this point though since it really has nothing to do with the main point of the thread which is Legion. Might be worth a topic on its own though. 🤷♂️
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I think Legion is in that bucket that most killers fall of being "good enough" to win if you outplay the survivors. They've got very good map presence with Frenzy and the Deep Wounds do have some inherent gen slowdown built into them because survivors must Mend or die and any time spent Mending is time not spent on a gen. Obviously once everybody is already injured Legion is a weaker, but then again if the survivors literally never heal then Legion is kind of like Infinite Evil Meyers where they are a 115% basic attack killer that can down all the survivors in one hit. (Meyers does have the slightly increased attack range which is nice but it's not that significant a difference really.) So it wouldn't surprise me if the average kill rates and scores for Legion were comparable to Meyers. Legion's got better tracking in the early game (just injure one survivor and know where everybody else is, maybe get another injury or two in the process as well) and has a little gen slow down. Meyers is slightly better at the midgame where the gameplay is kind of similar between the two in terms of downing people but Meyers does have the capability to more quickly down survivors who still happen to be healthy.
Personally I don't think either Legion or Meyers will ever be "top tier" simply because neither of them can both cross the map quickly AND get downs quickly at loops. (It's one or the other with them, not both.) But I would say if you think one is "good" then you probably think the other is "good" too.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576300#Comment_1576300
He is certainly not as good as Oni. Maybe as good as Oni on console, but Oni sucks on console.
Allow me to rebute your list:
Trapper: His traps can cut off some of the most dangerous loops in the map, forcing the Survivors to run far away to find pallets. He is an area denial, if you can force Survivor's into your area, they will get decimated.
Wraith: Will always get an easy first hit, but will struggle if he commits to a chase afterwards. He likes a more hit and run playstyle. He's pretty easy to loop, since he is tall and very visible and since he is only 115% and his power can't help him in a chase.
Billy: Can end chases with one decent chainsaw. Survivors will often mess up trying to avoid the chainsaw and instead get smacked by an M1. He can get looped, but good Billy's can flick.
Bubba: Definitely can have trouble with loops, chainsaw is unwieldy but is great pressure and can force pallets down early.
Thicc Boi Myers: Tier III allows him to one-shot and vault faster. He can still get looped, but one mistake is the end for those Survivors, since he vaults faster, there is more mindgaming opportunity. But he can still get looped really hard if its just a regular loop with no window.
Doctor: Good Doc's can cut off loops. They can stop you from vaulting and from dropping pallets.
Pig: Yeah, she gets destroyed in loops. She is M1 and the Ambush often doesn't have enough range.
Clown: Gets looped to oblivion. All they have to do is drop the pallet and he HAS to break it else he will never catch them.
Freddy: Huge map pressure and his Snares will allow for easy area denial like Trapper. His pallets also work as great decoys and make Survivors second guess.
Plague: Almost the same boat as Legion, but she gets an INSANE ability with her Corrupt Purge, so she can stop loops very easily if she has that.
GF: Can one-shot Survivors and has great stealth. Basically, if Myers and Wraith had a child, it'd be Ghostie Boi. He still gets mega looped if you aren't in stealth tho.
Demo: Shred can bait out some windows, but he still has to chase through most loops.
Pyramid Head: Easy way around DS, decent ranged attack can stop some loops. He's fairly good at that, no map pressure though.
Oni: Bad outside of Blood Fury. He gets it pretty easily though, and most Survivors won't heal against him so, he gets some easy map pressure and his power can one-shot.
Minor point but pretty much any pallet loop Freddy can catch with snares Clown can also catch with gas, plus Clown can put gas in front of a survivor during a chase while transitioning between tiles which Freddy can't do. Also Clown's gas always works on survivors while Freddy's snares only work on sleeping survivors. Basically Clown is better during a chase than Freddy, Clown's weakness is that once the chase is over he has no other ability and has to refresh his bottles every other chase or so while Freddy just teleports around the map and never has to refresh his snare pool.
TLDR - Freddy is way better than Clown overall, but Clown does actually have the edge during the chase.
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@EvilJoshy said:
Cool idea but most survivors dont use lockers so his power wouldnt catch many people. It would be great for map pressure though. Offensive however, once people know who the killer is they will stay away from lockers. Its better to go hunting rather then hoping they come to you.
To be fair, you could make the Undetectability last a couple of seconds after leaving a locker similar to how Demogorgon has a couple of seconds of Undetectability after tunneling. Because lockers are fairly well spread over the map he would, like you said, have potentially excellent map movement and occasionally might get the drop on someone who is within about 5-10 meters of a locker.
I'm not sure if this is enough of an ability to be a good killer, but it's definitely a good start. 🙂
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Better yet patch the exploit the hackers are using and keep the DC ban in place. Nobody likes playing with ragequitters (or hackers), if they want to play something else good riddance.
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@TreSen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1573535#Comment_1573535
Not really. You don't have to be exact at all with the sound. You just have to hear them. You know they're pretty near if you hear them and you come out with a speed boost and extended lunge so it really isn't hard at all to hit someone. The key isn't skill, it's just some sort of L/R hearing like a hedset or heck, I use my phone earbuds.
The grass moving isn't subtle. All you have to do is have eyes. Especially if you play on low graphics that makes it all the more obvious.
I love when someone writes a big reply then finishes it off with a condescending remark as if that somehow makes their point any better; though, I'm pretty sure you're using the word "savant" wrong. She's not hard to learn. It doesn't take anything special. It just takes not having impaired hearing or vision. There is a reason 90%+ of the playerbase considers her easymode and overpowered.
Maybe you just have a harder time picking things up?
Lol, no I'm not using "savant" wrong, savant means "person with detailed knowledge or exceptional skill in a specific field". As in you're passively bragging about how easily you picked up learning Spirit because it's child's play to you and implying that new players should all likewise learn it just as quickly and all they have to have is eyes and ears and a headset. And I'm saying you're overestimating how good brand new killers are and the relative speed it takes to learn Spirit versus most killers who can rely as much on sight as they do on sound during a chase. Hence me calling you a DbD savant.
(And then to top it off you called me "condescending" while simultaneously mocking everybody who can't learn Spirit as easily as you did. Maybe you should look up the definition of that word too while you're at it.)
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I don't have a problem with the gen spawns or totem spawns or frames per second. New graphics are nice but I'd be more interested in new killers than that.
Now if they were doing a complete overhaul of underused perks and add-ons then I might vote for that. That would add up to at least a new chapter worth of new-ish content to try out.
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Why does it have to be either or?
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1573884#Comment_1573884
I would guess the percentage to be a bit lower maybe, although maybe 10% is quite accurate. Who knows, there are days where I'd assume it would be even higher admittedly.
Sad enough if you get the worst of the worst, those even behave like jerks when they win.
Lol, well on the flip side 10% of people are awesome! 🙂 So I also get a nice comment probably every other day too. It does work both ways.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1573778#Comment_1573778
Well I never blame the killer for tunneling or camping, I just think it would be healthy for the game if the devs found a way to nerf camping and tunneling so it is less encouraged. Because right now it seems like too many people still do it. I get that by design, this isn't easy to do so, simply because camping and tunneling are strategies that are created by the core design of the game. But I do believe there could be ways to make these strategies less effective which would be a good thing.
And I really am talking about tunneling a survivor non stop. I understand that sometimes survivors get downed after being unhooked without the killer necessarily tunneling. It's just about making camping and tunneling in general less effective. The less effective tunneling is, the less people will most likely do it. And if killers should get some buff in return, that of course would need to happen as well. It's really just to further improve the game's fun factor for both sides.
Also, in my experience, it's only a small minority of people that complain about me tunneling even though I didn't. I honestly barely get them at all. Most of the survivors I go against do not complain about tunneling if there was none, not at all. Not sure what kind of people you go against but I feel like you only think it's so many simply because you only remember those people, and not the many survivors that simply don't write anything into post game chat.
Yeah, I'm guessing around 10% of people generally speaking are jerks, so regardless of tunneling and camping, etc, about 1/10 survivors are going to be rude in chat after a game regardless of what happens (if they win they'll make fun of you, if they lose they'll blame it on tunneling or camping or your loadout or whatever). So not a high percentage really but since there are four survivors per game it ends up being about once a night assuming I play 2-3 games. Obviously if they win they don't have a complaint about tunneling or camping, it's only when they die that it's a thing.
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I wonder how the Wraith does on average in general? I wish there was a stat site for the game to view average scores and kill ratios by killer. It helps give a perspective on whether Wraith could use a buff by, say, removing flashlight blindness or is ok or above average in which case maybe taking it away would be the wrong move. There's lots of opinions but no actual statistical data to go by.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1573556#Comment_1573556
No wrong, if people say getting downed right after they get unhooked is not fun then that doesn't mean they just can't lose. They say it because indeed it's no fun. Because it kinda denies them to play the actual game. I get that some people complain about tunneling even if the killer didn't tunnel, some people accused me of tunneling even though I didn't. But there are people that actually have reasons to complain about tunneling because actual tunneling is just awful to go against.
Also, camping can be quite effective against solo teams, and at times even swf teams. It's just still too effective for how unfun it is to go against, and how barely any skill it takes to pull of.
For the health of the game and it's design, it would be better if the devs found a way to make camping and tunneling less effective, so people are further discouraged to camp and tunnel.
Well first, saying "some" is a gross understatement. I never face camp mid-game (it's bad strategy) and I basically just chase who I have an opportunity to chase, but I get called a camper or tunneler pretty frequently after a loss. It's not an uncommon occurrence and it's almost always a survivor who died complaining about it. It's definitely a sore losing thing.
And I get it, losing isn't fun. But getting downed occasionally after a hook is part of the game.
Now if you want to talk about player elimination in general as a concept in multiplayer games, I'd agree with you that it's kind of a terrible mechanism, especially if it's a long game and the eliminate person has to wait a while to do anything else. Dead By Daylight fortunately isn't that long a game, about 10 minutes, so typically an eliminated player who actually wants to stick around and watch the rest of the match only has to do it for a few minutes before the game ends. But yeah, in a perfect world I'm not an advocate of player elimination in multiplayer games generally speaking, and if there were a way to do this sort of game without kicking people out one at a time I'd be for it.
But as it stands of course that's not the case, players get eliminated one at a time and that's pretty much the way it is. I'm not saying you need to think it's fun to be eliminated, but I am saying it's not the killer's problem if you're not having fun simply because they downed you quickly.
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I've previously thought of that Morph type suggestion where a killer impersonates a survivor because in principle it would be kind of cool, turning Dead by Daylight into a traitor game. 🙂 There are two main issues though. First, if there's a swf, it would be obvious who the impersonator was to the swf members. Second, even in a solo group, they could see who everybody else is in the lobby and when the game started might know who the impersonator is just from that.
An alternate way to do it, but one that would take more development work, would be since you can't switch killers in the campfire lobby any more that when you play as the Morph you actually appear as a fifth random survivor under your own name. So all the survivors will immediately know that one of the five is a traitor but, unless they are in a four-person swf, wouldn't know which survivor is actually a killer. Then when the game starts you move and act exactly like a survivor, playing in third person, interacting with other survivors and gens and pallets, etc, but you can also whenever you want backstab a survivor or sabotage gens, etc. Depending on how that was done it could be kind of an interesting mechanism.
Regarding The Stalker, hiding in lockers could be fun but it might not be very effective as a lone ability. However, a killer that is capable of, for example, entering a locker and teleporting to any other locker on the map similar to how Demogorgon tunnels to portals or Freddy teleports to generators could be interesting. Combine a locker teleport with some special ability that makes them able to get an Exposed hit is they do a "head on" style attack from a locker and that might be fun. 🙂
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@Brhoom said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1573592#Comment_1573592
My issue is if he gets an early down, also Bitter Murmur shows the aura of all survivors for 10 seconds once the final gen is done. I saw him abandon a hooked survivor to down 2 who were going for the exit gate, knowing that I was very far to be able to reach the already hooked survivor.
And about my timings, yes every match will be different but even with the best outcome he will secure 2 kills, unless survivors manage to pull off a flashlight save or unhook themselves with ds, unbreakable, and soul guard.
Oh, yeah, I'm not disputing he'll probably get 2 downs if he plays it right, 1 at worst if they pull off a save on someone. But that's definitely still a loss, he'll almost certainly have a low score (maybe not as low as the poor survivor he killed first but still really low) and also not a win by the 3-4 kill standard either (or the pip standard for people who care about those since he probably would lose a pip too.)
On a tangent this sort of discussion makes me wish Dead by Daylight actually had an official web page with dynamic stats you could look up for average points and kills per game for all the killers or survivors or for perk usage, etc. Aside from them posting a stat blog every six or nine months we don't really have any solid numbers to go by when talking about things like, for instance, how good is Bubba doing nowadays compared to other killers? It's all kind of guess work without being able to look at actual statistical data.
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@Brhoom said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1573568#Comment_1573568
I provided the best outcome against this strat and 2k is the minimum Bubba will get against a 4 SWF, and that if he doesn't get an early down and the 3 survivors were separated when the last gen popped. Imagine what will happen in every other situation/
Otz made a stream about this a while ago and he got 4ks with every match.
Well to be fair Otz can get 4ks using no perks or meme builds on any killer, he's a god among killers.
Also you replied while I was editing my post above, but your times are a bit off. You forgot to include the chase times. It would be something like 20-30 seconds to get the down and 10 seconds to carry to hook followed by 120 seconds of camping = 150-160 seconds. In 160 seconds the three survivors can literally do 5 gens to within a few seconds of completion (80 seconds for the first three solo, a few seconds for two to move to other gens and do the other two solo after another 80 seconds.)
I will say this, though, I think Bubba is a strong killer in chases now since his buff. He wasn't THAT bad before so buffing him made him pretty solid. Doesn't have much to do with camping per se but it does help him get that down or two to camp.
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I'm a little confused, did the Bubba in that original post win or not? 2 kills with hardly any endgame score is a loss by most measures. (I don't consider pips a useful measure of winning or losing, but it also would probably result in a loss of a pip.) How is that a "win"?
The only way that strategy wins is if the survivors run in for the rescue early. If they don't, Bubba loses because 1-2 kills with hardly any points is a loss.
P.S. The times in the original post are assuming no toolkits or buffs for the gens. 80 seconds is the maximum, it's likely the actual times would be slightly faster.
P.P.S It also seems to be discounting the chase time. It takes 120 seconds to die on hook but you also have to take into account the 10 second to carry them to a hook and 20-30 seconds to down them. So it's more like 150-160 seconds of generator time while the Bubba chases, downs, hooks and camps one survivor. 160 seconds is literally enough time for three survivors to do all five gens. (80 seconds solo each on three gens, then 80 more seconds each on two other gens solo while the third survivor cleanses or goes for a rescue.)
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1571230#Comment_1571230
THe problem witgh camping and tunneling is that it's a strategy that is beyond unfun to go against, especially camping, since you pretty much don't get to play the game, and it's too rewarding for how little skill it requires. If it was less effective, less people would be encouraged to just camp and tunnel, which is why the devs should look into weakening camping and tunneling.
Camping mid-game isn't effective except when the survivors are silly enough to just rush in blindly for a rescue. If they are patient and do gens before one of them goes for a save the camper will lose. It doesn't need to be weaker, it's already a weak strategy.
And "tunneling" is literally just knocking someone down twice in a row. I'm convinced tunneling complaints are more about sore losing than anything else. Yeah, dying isn't as fun as surviving, so what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with downing someone twice in a row or chasing an injured survivor over a healthy survivor. "But it's not fun for them", is short-hand for "I'm losing so I'm not having fun". Losing is part of the game, I don't go around griping it's unfun when survivors escape, so why would I go around griping if I was clumsy enough to get downed multiple times by a killer?
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@TreSen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1572850#Comment_1572850
Harder than average how? Learning to consistently 4k with Clown is harder. Or Legion, Pig, Wraith, Trapper, Hag, etc. The only people easier than her are Freddy, Pyramid Head and, if you already have decent FPS skills, Deathslinger.
Her skill ceiling is so low for her utility. The only things you really need to learn on her are the same tricks you learn on any other killer.
You have to learn to exactly judge distances by ear and be better than average at following visual cues like grass moving and crows, etc. Other killers use audio cues but don't normally attack based solely on them. Learning to play her at a basic level is therefore trickier than learning to play, say, Clown at a basic level since he's literally just a basic killer with gas you throw to block people off. Sure, once you've learned both Clown and Spirit I agree that Spirit is more effective than he is, but we're talking here about brand new killer players. Clown's entry level usability is definitely lower than Spirit's.
But hey, good for you being a savant who picks up everything immediately!
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Mini games could be fun but it would be a pretty big rework since so many perks and add-ons specifically affect skill checks.
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There are many more things I’d want to see get a buff than get a nerf. Off-hand the only things I’ve suggesting a slight nerf for are
- Red Moris - Multiple early kills is a bit too swingy. My suggestion is one kill after one hook like the Green plus kill any survivor you’ve hooked twice (aka on deathhook). Not as swingy but still has multiple kills
- Keys - Multiple people escaping on a single key use is a bit much. Let only the key user escape early with a key then the hatch close back behind them
- Decisive Strike - The duration at 60 seconds is fine as is but it’s a bit silly when the killer can go off, chase someone else entirely, down and hook them, come back and find a survivor doing gens, down them and get hit with DS. The perk should probably end immediately once the survivor does any skill check on a gen or healing someone.
Otherwise most of my own suggestions are for buffs to underused perks and add-ons like Monstrous Shrine, No Mither, Zanshin Tactics, Spasmodic Breath, the Yellow Mori, etc. There are a whole bunch of perks and add-ons that are basically useless except maybe for brand new killers in a couple of cases.
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Spirit is slightly harder than average to learn to only play by ear but that’s about it. Nurse is by far the hardest killer to learn in the game, it’s not even close.
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Legion is ok, their map mobility is pretty high and they can slow the game down with their Frenzy (even if a survivor doesn’t heal to full health they have to at least mend for 12 seconds after what was probably a 5 second chase by Legion so it’s a net gain for the killer.) They’re not top tier mainly because once everybody is injured they are mostly a basic attack 115% killer without an ability in a chase. They can definitely win games though just on the strength of their map mobility and tracking, they’re not “trash”.
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Deep Wound = 12 second gen slowdown per Deep Wound (more or less). That's a lot of slow down. For example, compare it to Pop Goes the Weasel, which is a 20 second slowdown per use and is one of the more popular killer perks. If you inflict two Deep Wounds that's like getting more than one Pop trigger.
The reason it's effectively a gen slowdown is simply that a survivor can't ignore it, they have to mend or they will go into the dying state. And the time they spend mending is that much time they could have otherwise been doing a gen.
So even though hardly anybody ever actually going into the dying state from Deep Wound unless they are extremely careless it's still a useful status effect.
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@OldHunterLight said:
I've been thinking for a while, I hate haddonfield and ormond, I'm sure survivors hate most indoors maps maybe all of them, why haven't we gotten an offering like map offerings but to not be sent there.
Like let's say that I don't want to go to ormond, but survivors don't want to go to the game they put that offering to not go there and I put the offering to not go to ormond, wouldn't that make it a better experience for both sides?
FYI One of the new offerings on the PTB is
Sacrificial Ward - cancels other offerings that would send you to a specific realm.
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There's nothing wrong with "tunneling" and "camping", other than it can be bad strategy to stand around a hook doing nothing or chase someone way too long while the gens get done. And sorry to say but new players are the ones that are most likely to be spotted, chased and downed so they're likely the first ones to die in a match regardless of how good or bad a killer is.
Honestly new players are going to get creamed in most multiplayer games starting out, it's the way of the world in this genre. You just have to stick with it, understand that losing is part of the learning experience, and get better over time basically. And I'm sure lots of people on the forums are happy to give advice and point to videos, etc, to help out.
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Medusa’s Visage: Your appearance slowly immobilizes those who gaze on it.
Any survivor within your terror radius with an unobstructed view of you on their screen is Hindered by a cumulative 3/4/5% per second of continuous looking up to a maximum of 30/40/50%. The Hindered effect persists until the survivor stops looking at you for 5 seconds after which it diminishes by 3/4/5% per second.
Notes:
- Use the Ghost Face stalk view mechanics for purposes of determining if the killer is in the survivor’s field of view.
- I think a variant of this would also make for a good killer ability for a Medusa killer. 🙂
- Obviously the exact numbers are up for debate. The idea is to set them high enough to discourage survivors looking directly at you but low enough that it’s not an overpowered perk.
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I honestly don’t care much about the cosmetics, I do like getting the journal entries though, they’re pretty neat. 🙂
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@azame said:
This is a double standard a major one. If I were to say as a survivor main billy is op without playing him and not even playing killer in general I would be attacked. But I see people say slinger had counterplay then tell me they arent good st survivor and cant preform it themselves.
That's all I have to say just a double standard I noticed.
Even Scott says in his videos that Deathslinger has counterplay, he just doesn’t enjoy it. And I seriously doubt you are claiming he isn’t an experienced player. There is a difference between the statements “you can’t dodge his shots” and “there is no counterplay to Deathslinger”. There are things you can do to increase the chances of a miss and those things are counterplays, it’s just not a black and white 100% chance to dodge an attack type of counter.
Also you don’t need to have great reflexes in a chase or understand every tile as a survivor to be able to comment on basic strategic principles. Obviously the more experience you have the subtler your insights can be but I don’t have to be a tweaked up teen literally dodging video game bullets to understand the principle of using cover to maximize the chance of a miss for example.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1569364#Comment_1569364
There are 3 overall forms of counterplay in DBD: looping, stealth and holding W. One of these is fun for the whole family, one of these is fun for a small portion of the family, and one of these is just absolute cancer.
Edit: Sorry, I forgot number 4: Gens. Which, to be honest, shares the title of "cancer."
There is a fourth type of counter as well in the case of ranged killers like Deathslinger and Huntress: using terrain for cover to maximize the chance of a miss when they fire. Also you left out juking to increase rhe chance of a miss as well but that one applies to both melee and ranged attacks and generally is less reliable than the other types. There’s also a fifth subtler type which is understanding zoning to get into more favorable positions when chases are likely to happen in the first place.
Whether you think using terrain or zoning is “fun” is subjective. To me the question of where to run and where to be on the map is more interesting than the question of whether or not you can literally dodge an attack by watching for it to start. Dodging attacks is just reflexes and muscle memory built up over time, it’s not a thought process in the same way that planning loops and deciding when to duck or drop pallets or juke to cover is.
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Hopefully they'll have the MMR fixed soon, I actually didn't have an issue with it in my own matches. I'm guessing the problem they had with the top streamers getting matched against brand new players was because they messed up the initial ratings somehow, or possibly that there was a problem with a specific killer or two that their ratings were off. (Tofu mentioned in one of his vids for instance that his Hillbilly games had terrible matchmaking but the other killers were more reasonable, so maybe there was something with chainsaw events or the fact that it is a new version of Hillbilly that threw off the ratings for them.)
Either way the Emblem System is kind of "meh" at matchmaking. My guess is the MMR is overall more reliable on average and in the long run aside from whatever caused the issue some people had with it.
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@TAG said:
No streamer will convince me that Corrupt Intervention is worth running on most Killers. :P
I suspect they're right that Corrupt Intervention is a good perk to give yourself extra time in the beginning of the match to get someone down before any gens are done. I don't run it though because it just seems kind of dull, especially when they just go into hiding or start cleansing totems or looking for chests and it might take a bit to find them depending on how good they are at slinking around and how good you are at finding hiding survivors. Personally I prefer Whispers because it serves a similar purpose, getting you into a chase very quickly at the start of the match, but it also gets the action going quickly more consistently and can be used at the end game to find the last one or two survivors who might be hiding from you.
That all applies though mainly to killers who are intentionally trying to get into chases immediately. With a killer that wants setup time like Hag or Trapper or maybe Demogorgon I can see Corrupt Intervention having more value.
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@Kumnut768 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1567565#Comment_1567565
please stop with the "tru3 said he can outplay spirits!!!" seriously dropping pallets early to use as an initiator is dumb because a good spirit will hear what side of the pallet on using stridor its not viable against good spirits
i cant believe the retro active counterplay argument is still here ive been explaining this since spirit released your not outplaying the spirit, the spirit made a mistake a lot of people play spirit incorrectly using the power often when you should be using it in short bursts when a survivor is on the other side of the loop you simply use your power for 1-2 secs to get to the other side of the loop and get a hit if they do manage to make a guess and get it right you have your power back almost instantly and can just do it again you could guess right and ######### the spirit 5 times but the chase still lasts less than 30 secs
TLDR: you cant outplay a spirit the spirit makes a mistake and if used correctly wastes about 5 secs in chase
Lol, he does other things besides just drop pallets early. But whatever, I get it, if he beats a Spirit then the Spirit "played badly", and if he doesn't beat a Spirit then it's proof he "can't beat a Spirit". Just ignore all the dozens of videos of games where he actually beats Spirits pretty regularly, they're meaningless I guess.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1568181#Comment_1568181
1) I thought you said you weren't subbed to Scott's YT on Wolf's discord (unless you aren't the person I think you are).
2) Scott's opinions are just that. Opinions. IDK why people throw them around like they are facts.
To be fair Scott's pretty well spoken and sometimes I agree with what he says, sometimes I don't. In this case I disagree with his definition of "boring".
On a related tangent, I keep seeing some people saying Scott thinks Deathslinger is "overpowered". That's not what he's saying, in fact in his videos he literally says he doesn't think Deathslinger is that great. What he's saying is he thinks Deathslinger is "boring" to play against in a chase because you can't literally dodge his shots. That's pretty much it - if you could see Deathslinger's shot coming beforehand and could have a split second to dodge it he'd apparently be happy with Deathslinger because he thinks that would be "interactive". It has nothing to do with game balance or how often Deathslinger wins or loses matches, it's all about him wanting to be able to dodge Deathslinger's shots.
And with Spirit it's about him wanting to be able to see what Spirit is doing and just do a countermove to that. Again, it's not about game balance per se (although he does think Spirit is really powerful, it's just not relevant to his argument), it's about him wanting to be able to see the Spirit do something a split second beforehand and do a countermove because, to him, that's "interactive."
So yeah, I obviously disagree with his opinion here. I think he's pretty much flipping on its head what I would consider "interactive". To me using muscle memory to dodge people is just reflexes or twitch gaming, it's not interesting. Things that require you to make educated guesses about what someone is about to do before they do it, that's more engaging.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1567718#Comment_1567718
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4bsPIdct_Q
Alright watch this then tell me what you think all tru3 did was maybe double back a few times and hope she doesnt catch on.
I already watched Scott's video and I disagree with his opinion. For one thing, he seems to be confusing "dodging" with "interactive counterplay" when he talks about Deathslinger. And he refers to counterplay that does exist against Deathslinger as "robotic", which I think is ironic because the counterplay he seems to want is literally just robotically sidestepping or Dead Harding when you see an attack animation. But he dismisses any notion of setting up Deathslinger in positions to maximize your chance that he misses as "guessing" and "him making a mistake and you not doing anything." But if you are using terrain for cover and correctly figuring out a pattern of movement that makes a Deathslinger player shoot too early and timing your pallet drops correctly, etc, that's not "just Deathsligner making a mistake", it's you putting Deathslinger in positions that make mistakes more likely.
His argument about Spirit is similar. "You're just relying on Spirit to make a mistake." No, you're putting Spirit in positions where mistakes are more likely. You can't see where Spirit is but you can make educated guesses about what she's doing, and you can condition her to do certain things when you do certain things. It's not random, it's a player-vs-player mental challenge. If anything that sort of back and forth is more interesting and less "robotic" than the type of "counterplay" he seems to want which is you seeing Spirit do something and then you just react to that and do the obvious countermeasure.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1567565#Comment_1567565
Hes not really mind gaming he was guessing correctly. I should also mentioned I seen the first video it was a bad spirit.
He even lost chases against said bad spirit. She would only phase when injured and not use other sounds.
I literally just grabbed the three most recent games he had against Spirit. Feel free to check out his others.
And he does mindgame Spirits, by the way. Even in one of the videos I posted, for instance, he goes one way on a particular loop in Yakaoma the first time the Spirit is after him, then intentionally goes a different way at the same point since he thinks the Spirit is now conditioned to go the same way as the first time around. He does similar things with pallets and windows. Plus he's listening to the heartbeat for signs of when he needs to run. And I don't know off-hand that he does it in the links I posted, but I've also seen him for instance intentionally use the fire barrels in outdoor loops to hide the noise he makes.
My point being, of course, it's not just "random". He wins more often than not because he has a good sense of what they're doing and why and can act accordingly.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1567481#Comment_1567481
Oh have you mastered this skill of conditioning and making educated guesses? If so you care to verse my slinger and guess correctly consistently?
I never said I'm a master, but check out Tru3ta1ent's games against Spirit for examples. He mindgames red rank Spirits all the time. Here's some recent matches
https://youtu.be/skEEkI52_9c https://youtu.be/mjsG6K1JdIg https://youtu.be/n0XFnbzdhhU -
- Two survivors left and both are hiding in some corners of the map waiting for the other to die. That stalemate where you spend a while finding crouching, hiding survivors who aren't working on gens or anything else is really boring.
- Rude players in chat.
- Nurse staring at the ground every 5 seconds (least fun killer in the game with the way that works.)
- I have to set my text resolution to 100% on my 4k monitor or I have issues where the mouse and keyboard commands don't work properly. (It's a weird bug but apparently with the default 300% resolution it causes these issue, Googling the problem had the 100% text resolution workaround and it works but it's really weird to have to do that and kind of annoying.)
- Parts of the game are just plain too dark. The lower level in The Game and some of the night time patches in Yakaoma Estate for instance and pretty much just a black screen. Running around when you can't see the walls or opponents or anything is dumb. I play with the brightness turned up a notch just so I can at least faintly see what I'm doing in those areas.
- Not so much a peeve, but I really wish the sound effect for Spies from the Shadows was crow calls instead of explosions. It would be way more thematic and actually would be mechanically useful by helping you audibly differentiate a Crow alert from explosion alerts.
- The only "secret" killer offering worth running is a Green or Red Mori, so when you run it everybody immediately knows you've got a mori (unless you opted to run a useless Shroud or Yellow Mori for some reason). Having only one good secret offering defeats the whole purpose of the offering being face down in the first place. They should either just not show secret offerings at all or show a fake, random offering as a bluff.
- There are a few too many perks that are just not worth using at all. Monstrous Shrine for example is terrirble. Zanshin Tactics is not useful except for fairly new players. Hangman's Trick is pretty marginal at best. No Mither is literally worse than using no perk at all. And the same for add-ons: Nurse's Spasmodic Breath is neat in principle (trade off blinks for faster movement) but functionally it's worse than using no add-on at all (you're losing your blinks to become a vanilla 115% basic attack killer with no ability). I kind of wish they'd take a pass or two at beefing up some of these underused, not-so-good perks and add-ons to spice things up.