crogers271
crogers271
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991591#Comment_3991591
if you're talking about the gen kick "catch up" survivors have to do that came after they nerf'd 3-gen strat. That also nerf'd gen-tapping and the 8 gen kick, survivor did ask for that.
I mean thats just the flow of the match. if you mean 3-genning then just spead your gens apart, not just do one next to the other back to back.
killers have lost some too. gen kick builds like brine/OC/erupt or m1 builds stbfl/surge (cant use m2 with these).
killers have also lost some of their strong perks, some that are a shadow of their former selves (Pop, Pain res, ruin, BBQ "the BP stacks", just to name a few). while killers can secure the kill its usually at the cost of 1 or more gens popping.
well the same goes for the gen blocking the killer after 8 kicks, the killer is doing what their supposed to do.
well not all killers have the same movement speed and even the survivor is doing what their supposed to do, some will loop the killer around pallet forever just to get the 100% pallet stun
yea but lets also not act like survivors arent able to get a 4man escape even when the killer plays well too.
if you're talking about the gen kick "catch up" survivors have to do that came after they nerf'd 3-gen strat. That also nerf'd gen-tapping and the 8 gen kick, survivor did ask for that.That's not even one of my examples.
if you mean 3-genning then just spead your gens apart, not just do one next to the other back to back.Just spread out your hooks.
Or put another way: if survivors just taking the most obvious route to their objective comes with punishments, why is it a problem if the killer is held to the same standard?
well the same goes for the gen blocking the killer after 8 kicks, the killer is doing what their supposed to do.I never said there weren't other examples for killers. You wanted examples of survivors as if it didn't happen.
yea but lets also not act like survivors arent able to get a 4man escape even when the killer plays well too.And killers will still be able to 4k.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991604#Comment_3991604
I've recently seen omeone proclaim that a killer deserves to lose if he cant use hia skills to get survivors. Ergo, if a killer kills the survivors, hes their better and deserves those kills.
The power-role (killer) needs to be stronger than the numbers-role ( survivor), survivors being stronger broke the genre in the past.
Personally i think the strongest survivor ( good players in swf) can be is quite equal to the strongest killer can be ( good player on A-S tier killer, im being nice and using the former bracket instead of just "nurse")
I've recently seen omeone proclaim that a killer deserves to lose if he cant use hia skills to get survivors.Well I guess if one person said it somewhere it must become the standard for all other discussions.
The power-role (killer) needs to be stronger than the numbers-role ( survivor),Great, but that's different than your earlier point.
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@KingOfGhost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991591#Comment_3991591
Corrected:
Survivors are penalized for tunneling a single gen because they can lose progress. They often focus on the first gen they see and ignore the map layout. For example, on MacMillan Estate, if you do gens on one side, you can lock yourself into a 3-gen. Do one gen on the other side and you likely win.
Each time survivors complete an objective, it becomes harder to advance the overall objective because the killer has less to defend. Early game, survivors have more pallets and loops, killers must break walls, and survivors control more of the map. As the game progresses and those resources disappear, killers get stronger. Would you want pallets to respawn after a set time to make it easier?
Survivors have had strategies removed, like WTP+BU plays or Unbreakable builds. The fix did more than address the issue. It also gave killers stronger hook locations. That happens across games, but killers also lose strategies, and many strong perks become useless.
Survivors lose access to some of their strongest perks and AFC in the endgame, even though they only completed their objective, which makes it easier for the killer to secure a kill. This is the same endgame survivors control the start of. It is also when survivors can choose to leave and avoid the killer.
Windows block after three vaults even though the survivor is only trying to stay away from the killer. Killers gain Bloodlust even though the survivor is still doing what they are supposed to do. Those were necessary. Otherwise many killers would never catch survivors, since several maps have issues.
Would you want pallets to respawn after a set time to make it easier?Please see the end of my post:
Quote: Most of those were/are good for the game, but let's not act like the killer doesn't gain benefits just when the survivors are doing well.
That happens across games, but killers also lose strategies, and many strong perks become useless.I never said it didn't. My post it literally making that point that what is happening is not even remotely unique for this game or any game.
This is the same endgame survivors control the start of. It is also when survivors can choose to leave and avoid the killer.By not popping the final gen? Sure, killers control who they hit and who they don't pick up. Exact same thing then.
Those were necessary.Again, see the end of my post.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991571#Comment_3991571
"A killer wanting to kill all survivors" is the equivalent to "a survivor wanting to escape"
And if a killer gets consistent 4k that only means hes better than the survivors, be it they suck or he's just that good.
And if a killer gets consistent 4k that only means hes better than the survivors, be it they suck or he's just that good.How is it not possible that the reason they are getting 4ks is that the game is tilted in their favor?
Survivors used to be the power role. It wasn't because the survivors were better then, it was because the game was weighed in their favor. It's on the opposite side now.
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When AFC and 3 genning came around people were all about 'you don't understand how good 4 person SWFs are, they'll find a way to abuse this! all the killers will quit or play S tier!'
This falls into the similar problems of not being realistic, as others have mentioned. If someone throws themselves at you, they can't do gens while they are slugged. If the survivors get to a 3v1 no realistic gen boost will make up for being down a survivor.
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I agree on it being an issue. Its not just the power role, its an expectation of absolute domination.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991550#Comment_3991550
what has survivor gotten thats akin to this, please tell me
I'll give it a go off the top of my head:
Survivors are penalized by trying to tunnel a gen by losing gen progress
Each time they complete an objective, it becomes harder to advance their overall objective as the killer has less to defend
Survivors have actually had strategies wiped out (i.e. forced to play) such as going for WTP+BU plays or unbreakable builds (the fix for the latter not just addressing the issue, but giving the killer more strong hook locations)
Survivors lose access to some of their strongest perks and AFC in end game, even though all they did was complete their objective, making it easier for the killer to secure a kill
Windows block after three vaults even though all the survivor is doing is their objective of staying away from the killer
Killers gain bloodlust, again even though again the survivor is just doing what they are supposed to.
Most of those were/are good for the game, but let's not act like the killer doesn't gain benefits just when the survivors are doing well.
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@Destaice said:
Across the internet in the discourse that is the PTB changes a common argument against the changes is that every killer except the top 5-10 will be unplayable as they cannot win games without forcing a 1v3. This is a confusing point because it's a 1v4 game. Being able to consistently force a 1v3 is inherently unbalanced and unhealthy for the game. If you aren't skilled at using your power or survivors are simply playing better, then you are supposed to lose.
It's okay to lose. Your priority as a killer should be figuring out how to effectively use your power to win the match. And sure there are a few killers who desperately need buffs or a rework. But if you cannot win vs 4 players with most killers then you're just not good at that killer. That's okay. Instead of freaking out about not winning, focus on getting better at using their power. Learn from the survivors who outplayed your power like how survivors should learn from killers who outplay them in chase. And at the end of the day, if survivors are the better players, why shouldn't they win?
Most of these discussions also included arguments about high MMR and that is confusing because they seem to think MMR is a mathematically perfect match maker and not jank. But if you want the game to accurately reflect your skill as a player then you should be playing on even ground as the survivors. Exploiting a broken design flaw to make the game near unwinnable for survivors regardless of their skill expression is not a reflection of your skill as a killer. If your MMR is low as a Hillbilly this may hurt to hear but that's where you should be.
You should be able to agree that consistently snowballing a game with little effort in your favor isn't fair gameplay. I'll agree that it's also unfair and unfun when you get genrushed into a lose first chase. Let's give catch up mechanics a chance to smooth out the experience without jumping to the conclusion that you'll never win as killer again.
And sure there are a few killers who desperately need buffs or a rework.I think this is an important point.
Any large game change is going to affect killers differently and inevitably there will be some killers who will slight to moderate drops in their kill rates. Those should be addressed.
But people seem to be acting like C/D tier killers are going to have a 7% kill rate after the patch.
@Rickprado said:
Sorry but your argument that this game is 1v4 can be used exactly to criticize those changes: Slugging and Tunneling ( and camping) can be countered easily within the assymetrical nature of the game. The best survivors know how to counter tunneling and slugging properly without the need of these changes, just with teamplay. Although this will help survivor in the lowest of the MMR, against medium and experienced players match will become hell, specially now that playing aggressive will reward survivors even more.
On higher MMR/experience levels, survivors and killers need to play on a macro strategy - considering the whole match, not a single chase or a survivor alone - to win. If you see good survivors, even when they play solo, they always try to mind what other survivors are doing while they are being chase to plan ahead how the match needs to go. Against good survivors you won't have time to spread hooks on the whole team, you will need to focus on 2 or 3 people to get a kill before the gens are done otherwise its a loss, most of the time. Having the killer to play "badly" on purpose - now you NEED to spread hooks, otherwise you will lose - while survivors can play optimally will just move people to quit killer or play Nurse, Blight and Kaneki.
Being able to consistently force a 1v3 is inherently unbalanced and unhealthy for the game. If you aren't skilled at using your power or survivors are simply playing better, then you are supposed to lose.
Sorry, but this is not true. With the Exception of Nurse - and maybe even her - you cannot simply force a 1v3 situation, you need to WIN some chases to get to a 1v3 situation against survivors. If you got to a 1v3 situation probably a survivor lost a chase or played badly/risky, didn't have any anti-tunnel perks to get seconds chances or - the most probably - their teammates screwed rescue, healing or even getting the aggro of the killer.
Currently, i agree that survivor has a problem but this is mostly due to lack of information on SoloQ. If we could see the perks of our teammates and have some sort of basekit info (see the perk of other teammates, Kindred, etc) i think the survivor experience would be in the perfect spot.
TL;DR : These changes hurt the assymetrical nature of the game, turning the survivor experience closer to a battle royal (1v1 against the killers) than a teammate action horror experience.
The best survivors know how to counter tunneling and slugging properly without the need of these changes, just with teamplay.Great news then, killers are getting buffs when they are not tunneling.
Against good survivors you won't have time to spread hooks on the whole team, you will need to focus on 2 or 3 people to get a kill before the gens are done otherwise its a loss, most of the time.You don't have to spread hooks to the whole team. Even going to 2/3 on the hooks will give you a 3v1 and just one more hook for the 2v1 while the survivors just get a, almost certainly, a moderate gen boost.
Having the killer to play "badly" on purpose - now you NEED to spread hooks, otherwise you will lose - while survivors can play optimally will just move people to quit killer or play Nurse, Blight and Kaneki.Which is it for high MMR? Do survivors know how to deal with tunneling, or is tunneling the only way to win?
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@Foggyguy said:
Tell you what? If they remove gen efficency penalty for when there's multiple survivors on one gen and make it that you can repair the same gen over and over again instead of shrinking the number of gens you can do and you may have had a point. Unfortunately you don't.
I'm really surprised that people don't get the obvious point you are making.
Survivors have an objective to complete and a few different ways to approach it. There are pros and cons to the different approaches and BHVR has nerfed strategies that have been detrimental to the game.
Killers have an objective to complete and a few different ways to approach it. BHVR is finally looking at the one that is radically bad for the game. It's not going to force people to play in a certain way, its something that is a core part of the game (or any game for that matter).
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991190#Comment_3991190
I'm afraid that the tuning is going to make this patch a huge buff to killers. The 90 second slug limit doesn't affect most games. Imagine the increased gen speed is just 5% while killers get bbq.
It might, I suspect it will be an overall killer buff, we'll see.
But you had a post recently, that I agreed with, that one of the issues with the game wasn't the kill rate per se, but how it played. That when the killer won it was usually a steamroll through survivors and middle results were less common that led to an uninteresting game.
I'm hopeful this is a step in that direction of making the overall game more enjoyable and not just 'well, one survivor is out, game is done'.
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@Lorisidir_Giichi said:
Yes, it is a bit early to jump to conclusions before the PTB gets revealed and had a proper test with it, but I have been growing very worried about these changes the more I think about it.
I've been wondering about the state of the game ever since the Walking Dead chapter dropped all the ups and downs of the game, all the baffling changes and decisions.
As someone who has played both sides, though more survivor as of recent, even I have to agree that I don't really like the direction they're taking with the Anti-Slug and Anti-Tunnel with what they showcased at the moment.
For the slugging side of things, it's going to be heavily exploited by SWFs and bully squads that know what they're doing. As if Conviction, Soul Guard, Unbreakable, Exponential and Flip Flop and other perks that pick the survivor up or buff the dying state are bad enough, if the Killer for example downs them with Forced Hesitation and Infectious Fright and chases after that other survivor, they'll just crawl their way to the pallet with Power Struggle ready to proc or pick themselves back up if they take too long to down that other survivor.
Literally no matter what the killer does even if they pick them up, or try to keep pressure up, it's going to be a lose lose situation regardless. You chase another survivor with a flashlight, they'll loop you for 40 years and the 90 seconds will be up and pick themselves back up onto a generator like nothing happened. You pick them up, you either get flashlighted or pallet stunned via another survivor or Power Struggle. It's going to make killers like the infamous Twins or killers that have their strength in keeping pressure with slugging doing jack all and hurt them in the long run if this does not get changed after multiple tests when the official PTB comes out.
Yes, getting slugged DOES suck on the receiving end of the survivor side and it's basically a game of hiding in the corners of the map until you're bled out or picked up, but this is 100% going to be weaponized by SWFs and I'm genuinely worried for the killer side of things.
As for the tunnelling changes, boy do I have a LOT of words to say.
It's good on paper to spread hooks around, maybe add like a bonus point like the old BBQ and Chilli where you get bloodpoints for hooking different survivors while granting the aura reading effect, and a majority of killers love it. [well mostly for the bloodpoints part] But this here, the way it's written and the effects to sway away from Tunnelling, it's basically the definition of a middle finger for killers that desperately needed a kill to get some early pressure.
For the one positive of this thing I will slam down on, the unique hook idea is nice, getting a mini Haste, Mini-BBQ and extra Generator damage is a welcome change and a weakened version for killers that can get around the map faster like S-Tier killers like Blight and Nurse.
But this is the part where my positive end, and my questions begin arising. Literally if you ignored the game's advice of juggling survivors because they're literally about to get 4/5 gens done and you desperately needed a kill and tunnelled that survivor before you hooked 6 times. Congratulations, you are punished for trying to secure a kill.
- All remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus [of unknown percentage] for the rest of the Trial and you cannot regress or block the generator.
Like I'm sorry, there is a bajillion other ways to make this effect sound far more better and appealing that doesn't feel like kicking in the killer's balls.
Maybe have a -10% penalty on the first tunnelled survivor then eventually get to 15% then 20% to regression to the other 2 survivors much like how they get a gen speed boost if their teammate gets tunnelled out [maybe harsher for a certain period of time], maybe slow down the generator kicking speed? Or something that doesn't restrict the killer when the game is not going in their favour? If you take away their ability to regress generators or block them, [according to the post, doesn't specify but imagine if it's permanently in the rest of the trial] then you basically just gave Survivors the easy win and a slap in the face to the struggling killers and Sadako mains getting a Condemned kill.
And I know for a fact that people are 100% going to abuse this feature to it's absolute limits, this legit CANNOT go live for me at least, a casual Solo Queue player that plays with friends a few times. This will 100% turn DBD into a Bully Squad paradise and this seriously needs to change when the next PTB drops because the Survivor role needs to be toned down- no not the survivor role, that's too killer opinionated, the SWF role needs to be toned down, the usual SoloQ would probably struggle to get a grasp on these new perks and builds to make them work but those guys, they'll be the reason why a lot of killers will desperately beg for BHVR to nerf the survivors.
I do not want to be playing as Kaneki or anyone else running DMS + Pain Res + Grim and another slowdown perk every game because they have all these tools to kick me down with it's bad SBMM system, I want to find a good sweet spot between a good thrashing of asses, and getting my own ass thrashed fair and square.But that's just the opinion of me, a random stranger being frustrated that the killer side is getting the short end of the stick as someone who is playing survivor more, because despite the salt and complaints, they can be REALLY good if given the chance.
[But nah, let's nerf Franklin's Demise because we can't let killers have a counter to the healing meta and the new map and keys system.]
I'm just worried about you guys, really really worried. You killers deserve better.You chase another survivor with a flashlight, they'll loop you for 40 years and the 90 seconds will be up and pick themselves back up onto a generator like nothing happened. You pick them up, you either get flashlighted or pallet stunned via another survivor or Power Struggle. It's going to make killers like the infamous Twins or killers that have their strength in keeping pressure with slugging doing jack all and hurt them in the long run if this does not get changed after multiple tests when the official PTB comes out.1: How was it that the survivor was slugged for 50 seconds before this scenario?
2: If there are two other survivors hovering, well then they have a lot less gen pressure.
3: If you do manage to down another before they get back up, the game has massively swung in your side
Survivors trying to rescue each other isn't bullying (unless they literally aren't trying to do gens). They sacrifice gen pressure (their objective) for trying to slow down kills (the killer objective). It comes with its own risks and rewards.
But this is the part where my positive end, and my questions begin arising.Buff killer good, buff survivor bad.
they're literally about to get 4/5 gens done and you desperately needed a kill and tunnelled that survivor before you hooked 6 times. Congratulations, you are punished for trying to secure a kill.If they're about to get the 5th gen done, what does it matter?
If they're already getting the 4th gen done, I'd rather face 3 slightly buffed survivors then 4.
All remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus [of unknown percentage] for the rest of the Trial and you cannot regress or block the generator.That's the big thing, we don't know the numbers. It's possible they're absurd, but I doubt it.
Or something that doesn't restrict the killer when the game is not going in their favour?So killers have always had this trump card for when things are going bad. 'I can just switch to tunnel' off a bad start. A bad start for survivors? Basically game over.
A bad start should have an impact (and it almost certainly still will). Hopefully though it won't be so massive in one direction.
And I know for a fact that people are 100% going to abuse this feature to it's absolute limitsI'm sure there will be survivors who will intentionally sacrifice one for the 3v1 as a type of challenge mode especially after it releases.
And I suspect death hook survivors won't be as cautious as they had been.
But abuse it? Losing a survivor absolutely weakens the survivor side. Even getting slugged and getting back up is a lot of time off of gens.
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We kind of got mini-corrupt already with all the survivors being grouped together at the start, it slows down getting spread out on gens. It also make normal corrupt stronger, because when survivors used to spawn spread out there were times I just spawned on the edge of corrupt with a non-corrupt gen nearby.
It's not a bad idea if KR dropped below BHVR;'s target, though it does make the beginning of every game the same. The initial game is no longer a choice of whether to do the gens or not, its to spread out and stealth. Not sure a slower start is what people want.
No gen increaser early: Takes out the risky strategy of getting across the map and breaking a three gen off the start. I think that's an important game element that would be removed.
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Its fine, good even. If it means it discourages slugging for the 4k, great. And while just 'hide in a locker' is way overrated on the value of dodging out BBQ, this is one of the occasions where hide in a locker is completely worthwhile.
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'All the killers will quit and the queue times will explode' gets said about every update.
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@Negative_Xero said:
Honestly, banger of a patch. There are good and bad parts of it, but this patch is great. I've seen a lot of people complaining about the Slugging and Tunneling reductions, but in my opinion, if you complain about it, you're probably part of the problem that made this have to happen in the first place.
I play as killer and survivor so I'm seeing this from all angles. I also don't participate in tunneling, and I only participate in slugging if I know there's a survivor around the corner preparing for a flashlight save. I run them off and immediately go back to pick up the survivor. So I don't feel like these changes really affect me as killer besides my few gripes that I'll get in to during this post.
1st. Slug Reduction: I think this hit the nail right on the head. As someone who has streamers in their friend group, I come across a lot of killers who get especially toxic when they see TTV in someone's names. Tunneling, Slugging, Hitting on hook. You name it, it's happened to us. It got so bad that the streamer came up with an anti slug build, one of us ran Shoulder The Burden, Borrowed Time, Babysitter and Reassurance for the occasional camper. One of us became our dedicated flashlight saver/Breakout user, and the fourth was our gen rusher with the anti-tunneler if the streamer wasn't on hook. This works wonders for streamers who get targeted by toxicity on the regular for just trying to have fun. If you're slugging for the purpose of getting rid of flashlight savers and you down the flashlight saver, it should not take you 90 seconds to down and hook one survivor before going back to hook the other. If the flashlight saver runs away from the slugged survivor, just go back and pick them up, it's not that hard.
2nd. Tunnel Reduction: Like I said, I'm not a tunneler. I try my absolute hardest to spread hooks out evenly between survivors unless one survivor is going way out of their way to get in my face (Think people who run straight to you right off hook to weaponize DS.) Even then, I tend to ignore them unless their getting ready to flashlight save. The main complaints I see are that this update makes killers like Sadako, Pyramid Head, and Myers (killers who have base-kit Mori's) less viable since they'll get the mini Mori off before having 6 hooks states. And to that, I say: You shouldn't prioritize the mini Mori over just playing normally (And no, tunneling and slugging are not playing normally, in my opinion) This just disincentivized the crutch playstyle that is "Spam Sadako's teleport until someone is fully condemned." Which is, in my opinion, the scumiest way to play Sadako. For Pyramid Head, If you're not caging survivors when you can, you're potentially hindering yourself. Cages don't trigger perks that require the survivor to be "unhooked" like DS, We'll Make It, ETC. So there's no reason not to. If you're saving Final Judgement in order to Mori the survivor, It's honestly a waste of his power. Myers is probably losing Tombstone due to the rework anyway since he's basically getting it base-kit with a few extra steps.
My only fear with the Tunnel Reduction is that survivors will find a way to weaponize it. Like leaving the first survivor that gets hooked on hook until they die just to get the repair speed boost as fast as possible. Alternatively, SWFs can have one person bring Slippery Meat or a luck offering, purposefully get hooked, then try to kill themselves on hook so their teammates get the buff, then the martyr changes each game to avoid the go-next prevention.
3rd. Myers Rework: As a Myers main (Who doesn't use Tombstone or Fragrant Tuft of Hair because I don't use anything I hate facing against), I'm a huge fan. This is the buff he's needed for years. Minus the dash attack, I could do without that. Plus, with Pyramid Head being my second main, base-kit Tombstone sounds great with it having the stipulation that the survivor has to have already been hooked twice. I do fear that it'll be too easy to get since all you have to do is be in Evil Incarnate mode when the survivor is on death hook and there's no longer a limit to how much stalk a survivor can give. But, I'll have to wait until I play him to determine that.
Good post, just one thing:
Alternatively, SWFs can have one person bring Slippery Meat or a luck offering, purposefully get hooked, then try to kill themselves on hook so their teammates get the buff, then the martyr changes each game to avoid the go-next prevention.How big do you think the gen speed buff would be for this to be viable?
Taking a survivor out of the game not only takes out that person's ability to do gens, but a 3v1 can be very hard to even have someone on a gen between the whole 'one on hook, one in chase, one going for the rescue' leaving no one to be on gens. It would have to be something like double gen speeds to be a strategy to go for.
Then there's the fact that the killer only suffers the anti-tunnel penalty once. If this occurred they could just tunnel the next survivor they find.
Finally this would make getting a win as survivors incredibly difficult. Not only would all three survivors have to finish the gens, they'd still likely need enough resources to be able to pull off a late game rescue.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/454887/finally-removing-handholding-from-killers
Agree with all, but especially "until BHVR backtracks and none of this actually makes it to live" lol
There's a part of me that thinks after this summer BHVR is, to use a phrase I've heard the kids use, 'embracing their villain era' (as an old I probably grossly misused it).
Basically I expect after the community spends all weekend fighting about this they'll come back next week and be like 'The gen progress will be 1%, the pop is a 1.5%, the haste is 50% and lasts for 0.25 seconds, and the BBQ and Chilli works on survivors in a range of 60 to 72 meters only. LOL.'
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@SnakePVP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990877#Comment_3990877
But none of these changes really address the issue of why many killers feel they are forced to tunnel to win a game. If you play a weaker killer and try to play fair often you find yourself 2 gens down by your first 2 hook. Thus, the pressure to get someone out of the game comes into play with all the gen rushing in this game. I dont feel that this minor buffs for killer which I think will only be for 5 or 10 seconds will even out the force play these changes will bring. Thus I think it will force many killers to play S rank movement killers so they can get enough pressure in the early game not to worry about 6 hooks.
If you play a weaker killer and try to play fairAnd what about if you play a stronger killer and don't play fair?
Killers are in tiers, discussing how to balance them is a more complicated topic. The fact that all of the killers have an easy to use but very powerful strategy, while buffing playstyles that lead to a better overall game, is the issue that is trying to be addressed.
find yourself 2 gens down by your first 2 hookDepending on pallets expended, that's an absolutely fine start. Survivors should get the first gens done quickly because its hard for the killer to defend the entire map, but the latter gens become more difficult.
I dont feel that this minor buffs for killer which I think will only be for 5 or 10 secondsI guess we'll see, but I highly doubt the gen speed buff will be anywhere near enough to offset a survivor being eliminated (nor should it, but that is what people seem to think is going to happen).
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@SnakePVP said:
Hand holding? All these changes just make it easier for the weakest link to stay in the game and for SWF to bait hooks to try to trigger the buffs so they can gen rush. I feel like this will only push people to S Rank killers. It seems killers are just ment to carry water for the survivors enjoyment. Making sure each one is fairly hooked and avoiding obvious ones that now will effectively be immortal before 6 hooks. We're just npc in the haunted house party game DBD wants to provide.
Hand holding?Yes
All these changes just make it easier for the weakest link to stay in the gameThe idea that as killer you can win just by matching yourself to the weakest of four players is a form of handholding. But you can still do it and it will still benefit you.
SWF to bait hooks to try to trigger the buffs so they can gen rushHow much do you think the gen buff will be? It would probably have to be around 100% to make this a viable strategy.
Knowing BHVR it will be a relatively small buff that will make the loss of a teammate not as devastating, but still a massive blow.
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@Skeleton23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990606#Comment_3990606
First off buddy. I never relied on Tunneling and Killers will Leave the game because Tunneling is not A Exploit or a noob thing to do. Even the most Skilled and most experienced Killer mains Tunnel because its a strategy.
Its like saying Gen Rushing is a Scum thing to do because there rushing there Objective. If Killers can't Tunnel then Survivors shouldn't be able to Gen Rush because there literally the same darn Thing.
Killers Shouldn't be punished for playing Smart or Effectively. I was pissed when Survivors where being punished from the go next prevention system for being new or bad at the game.
Also The Gen repair Speed bonus for a survivor getting tunneled is possibly the most obvious survivor sided idea I've ever seen. All survivors would have to do is all use the game Survivor and Outfits all be injured and die on purpose to get the Gen Speed Bonus. Trust me Players know how to abuse stuff there's only a of time before it gets abused.
They might as well remove killer as a Role to play and make it a survivor Team horror game.
Its like saying Gen Rushing is a Scum thing to do because there rushing there Objective. If Killers can't Tunnel then Survivors shouldn't be able to Gen Rush because there literally the same darn Thing.There's nothing wrong with saying a strategy, like Gen Rush, is too strong. Whether its true or not is a different issue, but many strategies in this game's history have been too strong.
Gens didn't get 10 seconds added to them because of how much fun survivors where having doing them.
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@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
Regarding the subject matter.
In the long run, measures to reduce frustration on the Survivor side—which has more players requiring support—might be the right approach.
After all, that's how we've implemented base kit BT, the anti-three-gen system, anti-face camping, and HUD action visualization up until now.Even so, since it's a competitive game with opposing factions, depending on how the match unfolds or the opponent's strategy, one side will inevitably experience frustration or disappointment. If you can't tolerate any of that, you'd be better off playing a different genre of solo games.
Let's get back to the topic at hand. While there may be some buffs for the Killer side in the changes planned for this PTB, I'm concerned that the forced gameplay elements are far too severe.
Even something as basic as crawling becomes impossible when you can't carry survivors waiting under boards with their flip-flops ready. Against hook-breaking teams where everyone brings sabotage tools, your means of countering through blood loss are nearly eliminated.
Fundamentally, it depends on the park's equipment and gameplay flow, but what about slugging when you don't have the time to hook survivors who've been downed once or twice? Even just looking at this one example, I feel there are many overarching disadvantages that can't be fully compensated for by a few killer buffs.
Even previous anti-camping measures and 3gen have stripped away many killers' strategies under the pretext of "survivor frustration." This approach has likely been successful, as it maintained the survivor player base at the cost of sacrificing enthusiasts of specific killers like Cannibal.However, even just reading the patch notes makes it clear that this time the impact on all Killers' gameplay is too significant. As I've stated before, Killer players are a minority faction, but they are human too, freely playing for various purposes (like emblem ratings, BP, 4k kills, or activating specific perks). That diversity was one of DBD's strengths, but if the systemic constraints become too severe, it ruins everything.
Let me say it again. Measures to reduce survivor play frustration are necessary in the long term, but this update is far too sloppy. Beyond hook destruction, flip-flops, and the effectiveness of flashlight and stun grenade attacks increasing far beyond what's needed, all I can see is survivors who've just been hooked getting aggressive with the Killer, demanding, "Hook me and take the penalty, or slug me and let me get up on my own—take your pick!" and targeting themselves. It's still before the PTB launch, so there's time. Please reconsider after gathering feedback post-implementation. Don't further strip away the already diminished diversity in killer gameplay that numerous updates have already reduced.
I'm concerned that the forced gameplay elements are far too severe.I'm still trying to figure out why people are using forced (and punish for that matter).
You can still tunnel. You don't get eliminated from the game if you do. It won't be as powerful as it was, and other strategies will be more powerful.
Even previous anti-camping measures and 3gen have stripped away many killers' strategies under the pretext of "survivor frustration."And things like WtP+BU and unhookable builds have either been weakened or completely removed from the survivors (which is an example of actually stripping a strategy, though it was the right thing to do).
And while people argued over the balance merits of those decisions, I don't remember survivors complaining that the game was forcing them to play in a certain way because it was no longer as strong to run to a corner of a tall building with an unhookable build.
As I've stated before, Killer players are a minority factionWe all own the game that allows us to play both Killer and Survivor.
I highly doubt that most players don't play both roles. People have sides they prefer to play, but its not true that these are two different groups.
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@DrackieCutie said:
Please read this, BHVR.
Please *actually listen* to people in the PTB this time, you have the potential to make a good change, but this needs to be done very carefully, if you ignore all feedback and let the anti slug and tunnel roll straight into the live servers it'll be disastrous for the game, but things do need change, and I appreciate that you are trying.
You NEED to address tunnelling and slugging, obviously, but you CAN'T do that without addressing why killers tunnel in the first place.
Killers shouldn't be punished for accidentally killing someone, maybe make the disabling regression thing only apply after hooking a survivor thrice in a row or something.
In general this encourages survivors to abandon their teammates on hook in exchange for a reward, which is exactly what you don't want, these changes shouldn't apply when a survivor is left on hook.
You need to consider what will happen if a survivor knows that if the killer looks them they will essentially lose the game, many survivors will almost certainly use this as an opportunity to get up in the killer's face knowing they can't punish them for it and in turn make it harder to hook anyone else.
Lower tier killers are unfairly punished by this, if you're going to be nerfing the buffs on high tier killers, you need to be reducing the nerds on low tier killers.
-- If I must suggest --
Have an extra long PTB here, you *need* to gather data properly before releasing these.
Instead of punishing killers for tunneling very heavily, increase the rewards killers get for the behaviour you want, maybe unique hooks block the highest repaired generator for a little bit like deadlock as well?
Give lower tier killers better rewards from not Tunnelling, maybe class these into "Entity's Favor" in the killer info panel where different killers have different levels of favor, with the ones listed in the changes having "Low" average killers having "Medium" and the weakest killers like Trapper and Hag have "High". You could also make it so the thresholds for triggering anti-tunnel are affected by this, killers that can afford and are easily able to spread their hooks should be discouraged more heavily than killers with low map mobility and pressure.
Also maybe High Favour killers could get a speed boost until the first generator is completed to help them get pressure in the early game, you could change the favour of various killers over time until you're seeing the balance you want.
Also if a survivor is killed by something power related like condemned or pig's bear traps that shouldn't trigger anti-tunnel, these changes just gut those killers.
-- Extra stuff --
Myers changes are interesting, but a dash feels really out of character for him.
You need to commit to reverting the changes to the purple bottles, Clown was already bad, he's not a high tier killer where you can't buff without a significant nerf, all you've done is made him worse.
Another problem people have with Kaneki is that his power is too generous with getting hits so I think you should look into that, too.
Not here to rant or argue, changes need to be made wether you like it or not, and BHVR needs to hear real feedback to do anything about it.
BHVR, a lot of changes are going to need to be made to this system for it to work, and you're going to have to commit to that, don't take this straight to live, but don't backpedal the entire thing because of backlash.
People reading this, paste it places! Let us be heard! And behaviour, please, please do your best to listen.
You need to consider what will happen if a survivor knows that if the killer looks them they will essentially lose the game, many survivors will almost certainly use this as an opportunity to get up in the killer's face knowing they can't punish them for it and in turn make it harder to hook anyone else.We've had some crazy takes over the years of what would happen with changes, but the idea that survivors will intentionally go for the 3v1 is up there.
There's a lot of things BHVR could do wrong with this patch, but the level that the gen speeds would have to be buffed to make a survivor being eliminated beneficial would be astronomical.
Have an extra long PTB here, you *need* to gather data properly before releasing these.Well, if its not already scheduled, probably can't be changed, though it would have been a good idea, though they've said most of their data comes within the first few days of release so not sure the longer PTB would accomplish anything.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968041#Comment_3968041
Aged like fine wine.
- Where's my compensation buffs?
If you'd added (even though there's a compensation buff included), you would have hit everything.
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It'll be fine.
I mean BHVR's probably going to flinch and walk back the changes, but if they actually go through it will be fine.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990809#Comment_3990809
If you think two minute queue times (while 2v8 isn't active) is indicative of a 40-60 split, then we really have nothing to discuss.
And if your killer queues have been only two minutes for most of this year your experience has been pretty unique.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990313#Comment_3990313
Here's a fun fact for you… it's better for game health for there to be too many killers than too many survivors.
You need four survivors for each killer player, which means, optimally, there should be a 80-20 ratio. Everyone gets a match, and queues are quick for everyone.
Now, let's say there's too many killers, and it turns into a 75-25 ratio. That means that out of the 100 players, 6 killer players will have to wait for a match, while all 75 survivors and 19 of the killers get a match right away. 6 players will have to wait until more survivors come available.
But what if there's not enough killers, and we have an 85-15 ratio? Well, then 15 survivors will have to wait for a match, while 60 survivors and all the killers get a quick match.
So while being short on survivors isn't the best outcome, being short on killers means more than double the amount of people will have to wait.
And I could easily see 20-30% of killer mains dropping the game over these changes. Especially casual players using mid to low tier killers. I know, because I'm one of them. My top 3 killers are Knight, Xeno and Spirit, and only one of those killers will be viable come Tuesday.
This breaks down though the more the imbalance becomes. 25-75, sure. 30-70, okay. What about 40-60?
We don't have the actual numbers, but given the queue times people have experienced its looking like a lot more than 25-75.
At a certain point its silly to not look at how to make the survivor experience better.
And I could easily see 20-30% of killer mains dropping the game over these changes. Especially casual players using mid to low tier killersIf its currently 25-75, and 20% of killers drop, the queue is fine.
It also doesn't account for people who have been playing survivor because of not wanting to wait that would be more willing to jump into killer.
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@KingOfGhost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990532#Comment_3990532
And that what i am saying they game make it more beneficial to leave your teammates on the ground and finish the gen, thay make the game more beneficial to end rhe game faster and they make the game to have less interaction with both yhe killer and survivors.
The force a very particular play style on both the killer and in decre on the survivors.
Also as for the perks they give to the killers unlike the benefits the survivors they gain the killer may not have the chance to use them.
Aura reading counter be any lock or even position close to the gen. Pop if you are not fast or you start a new chase you may not have the chance to use it
And that what i am saying they game make it more beneficial to leave your teammates on the groundThis is all balance changes. Every balance change makes certain styles of play stronger or weaker.
Aura reading counter be any lock or even position close to the gen. Pop if you are not fast or you start a new chase you may not have the chance to use itIf a survivor got off gens and jumped in a locker you still got value. Quite a bit if its at the start and all three survivors get off gens.
Pop - seriously? That's like saying basekit BT isn't a buff because what if the killer isn't tunneling and you're right next to the gen you want to do. Just because there are some circumstances where you might not get as much value doesn't mean its not a buff.
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@jesterkind said:
Twenty seems pretty high ngl
Tenacity on the survivor side for sure, and you could argue Off The Record too. Maybe toss in Decisive Strike and Shoulder The Burden as well, that seems fair- if this system works you might still have cause to use, say, Babysitter, but those other three are far more directly affected.
On the killer side… BBQ? Pop? Most of what's proposed for killer would hypothetically be more worth using alongside the perks that most resemble them to me.
I do think the conversation about how this'll affect the perk meta is pretty interesting to think about though, I'd love to know which perks you were thinking of here!
Tenacity: Increased crawling speed from the start, or higher increased overall crawling speed. Possible that crawling reduces healing speed and tenacity would negate that.
Off The Record: this perk still seems fine. The longer endurance and the fact that undetectable (i.e. elusive) lasts after a conspicuous action still makes it viable.
DS: This seems to need to change unless it just becomes 'try and bait the killer into this'.
Random thought: if you are on death hook, and no survivor has been killed, this perk activates. The perk deactivates after use or when any survivor dies.
StB: Still think this can be used without much change. Trading a hook with a death hook survivor is still worthwhile.
Babysitter: Yeah, this doesn't seem to have as much value, though the ability to see the killer on unhook is still nice. Just go all the way and make it reverse babysitter where the unhooker gets the increased speed to get away.
Pop: Potentially we're just back to the 30% regression, just with a portion of it being basekit.
BBQ: they bring back the bloodpoint bonus and nothing else :)
I am curious what they'll do with this. It still has some value as you can see all survivors, not just those at equal or less hook states, but a massive nerf to this perk without changes. You could allow it to show survivors in lockers as a counter to the counter.
That's my random speculation. Tuesday is going to be an interesting day when we see the specifics.
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@ratcoffee said:
edit: it posted without the text, oops. let's fix that
Since it was added to address situations where the killer slugs and refuse to hook, and there are mechanics being added that more directly counter excessive slugging, it makes sense to remove the bleed out timer
But what does removing it help?
Like its not going to do much, but I guess a survivor could be able to get back up 4 times (if I understand the mechanism) and still die due to bleedout.
Also wouldn't this make slugging for the 4k even more problematic? That could last until a server timeout.
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@KingOfGhost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990501#Comment_3990501
This " slowdown" exist from the start of the game and never was relevant in the game not only because the % is very low but mostly because players know that it's more beneficial to have 2 survivors on two different gen rather one 1.
Also yes i am aware this exists i just bring an example of a perk implemented as base kit on the killers similar with they do that for the survivors
players know that it's more beneficial to have 2 survivors on two different gen rather one 1.Yes, it's more beneficial, because the game makes it so.
That isn't forcing survivors to play the game in a certain way. That's nerfing one possible strategy (in this case, the obvious strategy, which are the ones that should get nerfed).
Nothing about the upcoming update forces killers to not tunnel, just as survivors could all jump on the same gen if they wanted. They've added changes that make it not as beneficial as it currently is.
Also yes i am aware this exists i just bring an example of a perk implemented as base kit on the killers similar with they do that for the survivorsLike a limited version of BBQ and Chilli? Or maybe Pop?
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@KingOfGhost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990498#Comment_3990498
Yes it's a buff ( we don't know the numbers and most likely will be low numbers) but this buff come with a lot of changes that force a particular play style for the killers and the play style is not fit for all killers ( example pig, twins, sadako)
It seems inevitable that any large scale game change (and this is a big one) is going to have an unequal effect on killers given how different they are.
It also doesn't force a particular style of play, especially if the numbers are small. It makes a certain style of play less advantageous then it is currently while making a different style of play stronger than it currently is.
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We literally have things like basekit slowdown if the survivors group up on a gen.
After the survivors vault a window in a chase the killer gain bamboozle for that windowHow about we give you: if the survivors vaults the same window three time in chase, even if the killer has foolishly committed to a strong loop, the window autoblocks so the survivor can't run it infinitely?
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@RepossessedTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990413#Comment_3990413
No, because if you're a person who is going to take the easiest route, you're going to take the easiest route with the easiest killers to do it with.
its as if almost not everyone wants to get a heart attacking play dbd and wants to chill, makes me wonder….
But plenty of low tiered killers do get played. Looking at either BHVR's stats or Nightlight there's a pretty wide diversification in killers.
their mains play them, hence why the kill rate is high, its kinda of obvious seeing how nurse has a lower kill rate despite her being nurse….
What does something being around since the beginning of the game have to do with whether its handholding or not?
so killers have been getting their hands held since 2016 because of tunneling….? so u are comparing one aspect of "hand holding" to the plethora that survivors have, seems fair to me
If you don't want to look at the broader examples DbD has been working in, what over the past year has restricted your ability to play killer (to go back to your first reply here)?
let's see here, limited my gen kicking because of 1 killer, can't pressure healing anymore because its overtuned, can't pressure gens to the point where killers play with 3 gens instead of 5 even in a good chase, about 70% of the killers are buggy, overtuned perks, oh and the fact i can't even play killer to just have fun anymore because i dare to main low tier killers
and coming back to your tunneling is hand helding did u forget the fact that barrowed time was a thing that countered tunneing the only major problem back then was face camping and hook grabs
so your definition of "hand holding" is the killer trying to win…by using tactics allowed by the game…is that right?
its as if almost not everyone wants to get a heart attacking play dbd and wants to chill, makes me wonder….Cool, you can play however you want. It's a PvP game though, not a single player game, one side getting an easy pass is absurd.
their mains play them, hence why the kill rate is high, its kinda of obvious seeing how nurse has a lower kill rate despite her being nurse….And you get to choose which killers you want to play.
so killers have been getting their hands held since 2016 because of tunneling….? so u are comparing one aspect of "hand holding" to the plethora that survivors have, seems fair to meI've listed a few examples of things since 2016, there is also the general info they receive but that's a necessary game component.
let's see here, limited my gen kicking because of 1 killer,You can kick a gen 8 times, you can still incorporate close together gens as part of your strategy, you just can't hyper focus on them.
This change came with an increase to all gen kicks basekit and removed gen tapping.
Also, over a year and a half ago.
can't pressure healing anymore because its overtuned,We once had medkits that were so strong you could heal in chase and a boon that granted self healing.
They nerfed all of that, then they've walked some of it back.
can't pressure gens to the point where killers play with 3 gens instead of 5 even in a good chaseWhat?
If this means you can't win a game where the survivors complete 0 gens, good, that's an absurd standard.
overtuned perksAlways been true and goes back and forth on both sides.
the fact i can't even play killer to just have fun anymore because i dare to main low tier killersDidn't you earlier say that people who main the low tier killers is why their kill rate is high?
Again, you can play whoever you want, just as I can play survivor with off meta stuff in soloq. But its a PvP game, I don't have the right to expect that I can play chill and get the same results as if I played sweaty.
so your definition of "hand holding" is the killer trying to win…by using tactics allowed by the game…is that right?Infinites were handholding. It was a tactic that was allowed by the game that was too strong that survivors used because they were trying to win.
Auto completing gens was handholding. It was a tactic that was allowed by the game that was too strong that survivors used because they were trying to win.
What you're saying here makes you sound very silly. Of course these things are allowed, that's why they are called hand holding, and of course players are trying to win, that has no merit on whether something is broken. Hand holding is when the game gives a tactic which is easy to execute while achieving tremendous value.
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@Foggyguy said:
It is a bunch of good and healthy changes. We should certainly wait for the PTB to make a final judgement call.
Yeah, the numbers of things will have a huge impact.
Maybe my expectations are way too low at this point, but I'm just happy that BHVR is looking in the correct direction.
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@RepossessedTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990371#Comment_3990371
face camping got removed 2 years i think?
3 gen is not exaclty something anyone can pull off and most of the time survivors do it themselves (still happens) and that also got nerfed with SM
tunneling, sure i guess but that has existed since the dawn of dbd so not sure how that is hand holding
so…what are u about exactly…?and if there was this so called hand holding wouldn't u think a lot of low tier killers would be played more?
im genuinely questioning my sanity right now because i feel like u haven't played dbd in 3 years
tunneling, sure i guess but that has existed since the dawn of dbd so not sure how that is hand holdingWhat does something being around since the beginning of the game have to do with whether its handholding or not?
so…what are u about exactly…?If you don't want to look at the broader examples DbD has been working in, what over the past year has restricted your ability to play killer (to go back to your first reply here)?
You don't have to deal with flashbangs while facing the wall, survivors start clumped up, there's more A and S tier killer options than there was a year ago, so…what are u about exactly…?
and if there was this so called hand holding wouldn't u think a lot of low tier killers would be played more?No, because if you're a person who is going to take the easiest route, you're going to take the easiest route with the easiest killers to do it with.
But plenty of low tiered killers do get played. Looking at either BHVR's stats or Nightlight there's a pretty wide diversification in killers.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
So, if you have ever seen me around these forums, you know that I'm the biggest advocate for killer rights, and 9 times out of 10 I have criticism to how the devs have been handholding survivors all the time since Skull Merchant got her first rework. That being said, I actually think that the update the devs announced might actually be good for the game overall, but it will all depend on a single number
Hear me out. The main reason killers tunnel is to get rid of someone as quickly as possible. It is fundamental to do that because otherwise the generators just fly and you can't do anything about it, so with 1 survivor dead efficiency goes down by 25%. With that in mind, there is currently no incentive to hook multiple survivors, this update kinda fixes it by giving killers benefits and tools to juggle between targets.
The first one is BBQ and Chilli basekit, which should you help go for other people immediately after a hook. The second is the removal of collision for unhooked survivors, meaning they can't use their protection offensively. The third, and the most important one is the Pop Goes the Weasel effect, which I will get back to it later.
Sure, the survivor side also got a lot of buffs as well. The first one is the endurance + silent mode + haste. However, that doesn't sound as different from our Off the Record. The thing is, OTR is already a perk that you see ALL THE TIME, so in practice, all that means is that survivors essentially got an extra perk slot. Don't get me wrong, Off the Record is still busted when comparing to everything else, but having it now as killer is vs having it as basekit alongside other killer buffs + no bodyblock I do think that the latter takes the cake.
There is more though, as survivors got another buff. Now they receive a repair speed boost if a survivor dies before the 6th hook, and the killer can no longer regress generators or block them if a survivor dies regardless. The thing is that the meta now may be getting 8 hooks (two on each survivor) before killing them, since it allows you to the most Pop Goes the Weasel uses. And then when the first dies you use your base BBQ to rush and kill all the last survivors. Needless to say, this ideal scenario sounds more healthy for both sides than what we have now, where killers need to tunnel because gen speed is that crazy and gen defence perks have been essentially deleted, but they can't do so because tunnel defense perks are absolutely overtuned.
However, there is a small variable that will decide if this update is good or not, which is the basekit Pop Goes the Weasel regression value. If the regression is something like 30% of the total generator chargers, then we are looking into an excellent update and probably the end of tunneling for good. On the other side, if the value is 10% of current generator or something stupid, then the game will become more unplayable for killer than ever. I think that the minimum should be 20% of total generator charges to compensate for the other killer nerfs.
As it is now, I will wait and see the numbers that come with this update before making the final judgement, but for now, it looks like a really good update.
On the other side, if the value is 10% of current generator or something stupid, then the game will become more unplayable for killer than ever. I think that the minimum should be 20% of total generator charges to compensate for the other killer nerfs.I mean this really depends on how big the gen speed boost is. If the speed boost is small, and the pop bonus is small, the game will probably play out mostly like it currently does.
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@RepossessedTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990303#Comment_3990303
They're removing the handholding that has been in place.
and what is that exactly?
what hand holding have the killers got, the fact they get to play the game?
The handholding is that the most powerful strategies have always been the easiest to execute. 3 genning from the start, facecamping, and tunneling are all things that required very little skill expression on the part of the killer and BHVR is right to finally nerf them.
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@tuttoinunavolta said:
"Let's look back to your post and what I originally quoted:
If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?You aren't being penalized."
Since my post is explicitly about Sadako, whose mori-fying power largely depends on survivor input, I'll better explain what is implied there:
1) Survivors screw up by not interacting enough / interacting too recklessly with tapes, their Condemn level raises
2) I manage to get the survivor fully condemned and mori them.
3) Their teammates now get a permanent boost to their gen repair speeds.
Points 1 and 2 are already possible in the current version of the game. Yes, when you add in point 3, you are adding an advantage to the survivor side / disadvantage for the killer that was not there before. I feel like that's an objective fact.
"But you killed a person, that is a bigger advantage for you" Yes! I managed to kill a survivor, which is my end goal as the killer, so I progressed on my one goal, and now I have one more thing going on for me. Just like survivors completing gens have one more thing going on for them. But it would be silly to have a non-perk, core mechanic that buffs the killer any time the survivors advance their goal, wouldn't it?
Yet we have it here in this Sadako situation: the survivors now have a random buff that they wouldn't have otherwise and is absolutely not related to the anti-tunnelling purposes it should have. It was explicitly designed to be anti-tunnel, but it punishes this (and many other) non-tunnelling scenarios. It is quite literally an oversight that affects something beyond what they planned. Hence I'm calling it not thought out well.
"What is a justifiable reason? It's a video game."
huh? First of all, when did I ever imply it's more serious than that? We're discussing the balance of a videogame on the videogame's forum. You're arguing that this change makes sense - you're literally providing what you think are justifications for its inclusion. And on my part I'm saying there are no valid justifications on a balance standpoint. What's the point of bringing the "it's just a game" card here..? I know..?"What's more justifiable then - we think this will make a better overall game.""
… yeah. and I'm saying that it wasn't thought through, because the change affects many situations beyond the ones that they planned for it to work on, and they were very explicit about it being an anti-tunnel mechanic.the survivors now have a random buff that they wouldn't have otherwise and is absolutely not related to the anti-tunnelling purposes it should have.And whenever you hook a unique survivor you get a buff even if you weren't ever going to tunnel in the first place.
Basically, its not a penalty which is a word that is getting thrown around a lot. A nerf? Well, we need to see how powerful the unique hook benefits will be and compare the frequency of their occurrence vs when something like this would happen.
I have difficulty seeing it as a significant issue even for the killers listed, but even if it does become one its a relatively easy fix.
First of all, when did I ever imply it's more serious than that?You used the word justifiable which, to me, implied there was some deeper meaning then 'create the best possible game'. If that's what you meant, then great.
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@RepossessedTV said:
handholding for killers?
damn bro didn't know bhvr was holding my hand by the fact they literally been adding more restriction to my role for the past year
but i guess that is holding my hand and stopping me from playing the game
Removing the unhook notification is an excellent change. This is has been a simplistic basekit method that allows killers to tunnel without requiring much game sense, instead the game just tells them 'go here now'
just say u like to heal under hook and tbh im still gonna see it on the hud and come back i don't need a notification lmao
damn bro didn't know bhvr was holding my hand by the fact they literally been adding more restriction to my role for the past yearThey're removing the handholding that has been in place.
im still gonna see it on the hud and come back i don't need a notification lmaoThe way I see the post it sounds like it won't show on the HUD.
When a Survivor is hooked, their hook status is hidden from the Killer. When they’re unhooked, there is no notification and their hook status isn’t revealed immediately.I take the hook status isn't revealed immediately to mean the HUD doesn't update right away.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989832#Comment_3989832
The only perks that can even have any kind of failure factor om that level would be Shoulder the burden, Deliverance, Background Player, Dead Hard and Conviction (If you don't have a build for it). Meanwhile you have perks that are so easy if effortless to pull of like Vigil, WIGLF, Lithe, DS, Unbreakable, OTR, Resurgence, MTF, Soul Guard, Do no harm, Finesse, Dramaturgy, Deja Vu and Last Stand."The video you linked spends a huge amount of time disagreeing with you and goes into detail on how survivor perks are strong with practice."
The time I spent talking about these perks was about the failure rate trying to use it not the perk itself but the person using it. Besides that is was about how most perks don't really have any massive drawback or in the case of STB not enough. Even then the whole point I made was counter to you saying they are high risk high reward when that is not the case.
Also when it comes to WIGLF in the video he used it Infront of the killer most of the time and got value from it if that does not scream too easy then what does?
Deja Vu prevents 3 gens which is pretty strong to say otherwise is insane, 4th most used perk for a good reason (While requiring nothing to activate ).
In the video he said this.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/F7LXNBU85RIJ/screenshot-2025-08-29-193747.png
"Once upon a time it was just 'run dead hard' on the exhaustion front, now survivors have a lot of viable options because DH was heavily nerfed. That is not an improvement to survivor in strength, though it does make for a healthier game.
"On the other hand, killer perks usually stack, so you can run 4 gen regression, or 4 aura read, or all hex, etc."
"That's not what I said. Nerfing DH made other exhaustion perks actually viable, making it look like survivors had more good perks. That was an improvement in game design, but if old DH returned all of those perks would suddenly look pointless."
"Not only can you, you have to. You can't compare how things have changed and just ignore the 'get out of jail free' card that survivors used to have."
All exhaustion perks were viable before deadhard most just picked the easiest option. Yes if you gave back press E to avoid all damage and dash is would be best over night but I would also imagine the rate of hexes would go up if we got TOTH and Ruin at there best back as well but these do not get brought up as original ruin was out of line. The reason I say you cant compare them is due to function being something that cannot exist as its too strong.
"Game sense is one of the few things in the game that is true for both sides. When to pursue a chase, what gen to go to, which survivor to chase, are what separates low tier and high tier killer players as well. It really has no bearing on this issue."
Yes it does. When talking about game balance you need to assume a level of play to focus so a medium competent level, you are expected in a balance discussion to have an idea how to play the game.
"Missing that I was discussing exhaustion and healing (which the video focused on), which have self limiting factors. Just because survivors have multiple options in these categories doesn't have a huge impact on balance, they make for a more fun game, but whether survivors had three good exhaustion perks or seven is not a huge issue because they're only going to run one (and if they had a broken perk like old DH that would override the variety really quickly)."
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/F6J3IRUTTXIQ/screenshot-2025-08-29-193924.png
I went over exhaustion already in terms of stacking, the video went on about how perks interlock with each other.
But if you need more examples for healing .
First just to lay ground rules when you increase healing is the amount of charges you do per second not reducing them so it has diminishing returns.
But at base survs heal 16sec/charges lets say you have We'll make it and just unhooked someone that cuts the time down to 8 as you heal at 2c/sec but then lets add Do no Harm to the mix and just to make things easy say it someone on death hook so 100% for a combined 200% extra speed so thats 3c/sec that comes to 5.33 secs so stacking that high is not necessary so most just run one or two healing perks to make things easier.
Anyway about perk to run Resurgence on it own is super powerful Do no harm is also great on its own but can be run with botany for extra efficiency, if you want to devote your whole build to healing Empathetic connection + We'll make it/Botany + Desperate measures/Do no harm and depending on what's more important to you Strength in shadows/Solidarity/Resurgence a really solid SoloQ build have personally had allot of success with.
But all this boils down to allot of healing that makes it so injuries do not provide any pressure or next to none for the time invested getting it.
So when surv perks get nurfed its "Now there is nothing left to use" when that is clearly wrong."Strawman."
Strawman but does not include the second bit hmm. And you said yourself
"Then you have things like exhaustion and healing perks. Yes, survivors have lots of options, but primarily because BHVR has made them
extremely hard to stack in meaningful ways. Once upon a time it was just 'run dead hard' on the exhaustion front, now survivors have a lot of viable options because DH was heavily nerfed. That isnot an improvementto survivor in strength, though it does make for a healthier game.""On the other hand,
killer perks usually stack, so you can run 4 gen regression, or 4 aura read, or all hex, etc.""And on the issue of gen regression perks since 6.1, the meta at the time was overpowered and incredibly stale. Yes, many things have been nerfed since then, but it was
desperately needed.""Hard to stack meaningfully" "Not an improvement" "Killer perks stack" "The killer perk nurfs where desperately needed"
This shows you do not think that there has been meaningful improvement with surv perks and that they do not stack meanwhile killer perks are easy to stack and provide value when that is not true.
Not all hexs provide the value to your build, some gen regression/defence perks conflict and not all aura reading is acquired the same way and may be better for some worse for others.
You also get more tunnelling and camping to boot since going for multiple hooks is now detrimental to you all it leaves the killer with is to tunnel, camp slug even harder than before."Except that's not true. That was the argument for the strong gen defense era, but tunneling and camping where just as prevalent then, if not more, because the gen defense made the tunnel even easier."
Ok if that's the case why do people not run DS, OTR or Reassurance more often? Despite is being so common? Nightlight shows that these perks that hard counter tunnelling dont have as high pick rate to reflect that.
Even in the video he talks about bringing STB a lot and getting value out of it even with solos.
If you insta pull me in a public game like that im going myers mori you as dwight for it."This has nothing to do with the 10 extra seconds on hook argument."
"There is a giant chasm between an insta pull and getting past the 60 seconds of the old hook states."
Besides the clear memeing. Its an exaggeration saying that you dont pull to early as you may be giving the killer free reign to interrupt and possibly get back to hook and tunnel. With the old 60 sec system you had to be in position to unhook quicker but now with the extra time it make proxying more risky as well as giving someone more time in "time out" before being back in the game and be able to die again.
But if you look at the bigger picture the role as whole as gotten far worse if you are not playing these top 5 killers and with every new update its only getting worse."Except the bigger picture needs both a start date and to factor everything in. We're talking survivors losing things like DH (twice), MFT, the ability to heal in chase, etc. This actually was something I noticed in the video where he briefly discussed the killer improvements he actually liked, but then ignored those as he hyper focused the discussion on clown."
6.1.0 is the start date and we hit critical mass in the FNAF chapter(9.0.0). Again it was slow and gradual and nothing was even noted until around Dracula's chapter so if you want a date of when you would start to feel it it would be 8.2.0.
The reason Clown was brought up was due to it being recent but even then he talks about Huntress, Singularity and Vecna being made easier but not more powerful as the range of their capability's is about the same. And going back to clown his old rework when they first added the yellow bottles is a good rework allowing for play he was not able to do before hand.
Killers also lost odd meta perks now and then like Thrill of the Hunt which is again brought up in the video.
Your whole speal reads like your trying to find the wrong points or take thing out of context.
So I'm only going to do this a final time.
In the video he said thisTwo of those have superior versions for skilled players. Lithe is easy to use, but creates scenarios where you have to leave a loop before getting maximum value out of it. Deja Vu is destroyed by a player capable of hitting the greats with hyperfocus.
But that's how a lot of perks work. Simple to use equals less value than what you get from a harder to use perk.
Windows is a perk that most really good players can replace with something useful as they don't need to be told where every vault is.
Resurgence is probably too strong.
The reason I say you cant compare them is due to function being something that cannot exist as its too strong.And as I said, you can't just exclude certain things from the game when making an overall comparison on whether one side has gotten harder or not.
Strawman but does not include the second bit hmm.Yes, you started off with a bad premise, the framework of your argument is a fallacy, it makes it impossible to discuss the rest of the point fairly.
This shows you do not think that there has been meaningful improvement with surv perks and that they do not stack meanwhile killer perks are easy to stack and provide value when that is not true.You're making stuff up and inserting it between the lines. The discussion here was on his point on perk variety that the video touches on.
Exhaustion perks only stack in meme builds. Stacking healing perks has built in downsides. Gen regression stacking is much easier to achieve. That's what got laid out, you're jumping into different territory.
Not all hexs provide the value to your build, some gen regression/defence perks conflict and not all aura reading is acquired the same way and may be better for some worse for others.Not all healing perks are equally strong, nor are all exhaustion perks, what's the point?
A killer can definitely stack four regression perks. The fact that there is another perk that could conflict with those is irrelevant unless we're in chaos shuffle. I might as well argue that Resurgence isn't a good perk because what if the survivor also runs No Mither?
As for better or worse on some killers, not sure why you would run a perk that doesn't have value on a certain killer.
Ok if that's the case why do people not run DS, OTR or Reassurance more often? Despite is being so common? Nightlight shows that these perks that hard counter tunnelling dont have as high pick rate to reflect that.DS is one of the top ten most used perks on nightlight.
But, like the video, it misses that survivors don't know the position they'll be in. Reassurance does nothing if you get tunneled, OTR does nothing if someone else gets tunneled (and also nothing if you get hard tunneled and the killer just swings through the BT).
Your whole speal reads like your trying to find the wrong points or take thing out of context.You're defending a video that is largely a non-sequitur onto other issues and I think you are missing some of the points he is making in his broad analysis of the game.
We're also getting away from one of the broad criticisms of his video: survivor perks and killer perks accomplish different things as killers have powers and survivors primary method of improvement is via their perks.
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@tuttoinunavolta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990105#Comment_3990105
Deaths being beneficial to the killer was always true and nobody is (nor should be) arguing that.
But this is ignoring the fact that the gen repair speed boost can be a game-changer that can be given at any time, and for no justifiable reason. This change has just too many "but"s, and the 6 hook limit doesn't even properly address tunnelling.
"Killing people would still benefit the killer" is not a good enough justification for a change that could negatively impact so many non-tunnelling-related scenarios.Let's look back to your post and what I originally quoted:
If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?You aren't being penalized. You are still gaining, just not as much as you are currently. A game element is getting nerfed, its not that unusual and we won't know for certain the impact until BHVR gives us some numbers.
and for no justifiable reason.What is a justifiable reason? It's a video game. What's more justifiable then - we think this will make a better overall game.
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@tuttoinunavolta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990060#Comment_3990060
"Unless the speed increase is massive, you still win out by getting an early kill"
And who says you got an early kill..?It's hard to split the hairs to find when this wouldn't beneficial for the killer. Even if there's only one gen remaining, a 3v1 is still preferable to a 4v1 (again unless the speed increase is massive).
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@tuttoinunavolta said:
"If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial."
Did you guys forget you made a bunch of killers, like Sadako, Pig and Pyramid Head, that have alternate Mori conditions? I main Sadako, it happens fairly frequently that some survivors don't interact with tapes at all and I manage to kill them before I got 6 hooks as a whole. If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?
Sadako's most interesting thing she has going on is her Condemn, and it works only if the killer plays well and outsmarts the survivors - but now I have to make sure I don't actually do that, else I might get penalized for using the power you guys made for this killer. She was purposefully made for macro play, her chase power is barely there (and that's good! I don't want to play a chase killer if I pick her) but now I have to go against her entire design in order to not be penalized.
I think the anti-slugging changes are amazing and most tunneling-related stuff is great too.
But this change (and the "no more gen regression" one) legit just turns the game into a round of babysitting. Tunneling is a problem, but the 6 hooks change barely even touches it; focusing on 2 alternate survivors isn't tunneling, why is it being addressed?? Killer now has to keep 6 different side effects in mind and play inefficiently, whereas the survivors have less things to think about that go beyond the useful and needed anti-slugging and anti tunneling.
My main and favorite character getting her power kit obliterated as a side effect just makes it even more of a obnoxious change, personally.
If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?I have a feeling I'm going to be typing the following a lot on repeat over the next couple of days:
Unless the speed increase is massive, you still win out by getting an early kill. It's not quite as massive as it is currently.
You aren't being penalized, a certain strategy / game occurrence will be less powerful than it currently is.
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@Jay_K said:
- If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial.
- If the Survivor that was last hooked is Sacrificed or Killed, generators cannot be regressed or blocked.
These 2 things are going to ruin the game for killersBefore anyone wants to comment "just don't tunnel" think about it. Killers are now FORCED to play by the survivor handbook and hand free wins effectively to them.
If you kill a survivor too fast then boom free gen progression for everyone. This means your damned if you do and damned if you don't. you kill someone because its the optimal play at the time then woo you got a kill but now all gens are gonna fly a little faster on top of whatever buffs it already has.
Then the way this reads sais that every time you kill a survivor and you find a gen near by thats nearly complete then uh uh uh you can't regress that gen to hopefully stop it popping meaning you have to just sit and wait for whatever timer BHVR decides to put on this (because in classic form no figures are released) and while your waiting other gens are flying.
Now im not saying that tunneling is fine and i agree with the masses that any killer who goes into a game and hardcore tunnels a survivor needs to maybe find another game to play because clearly this isn't the game for them but i can tell you from experience that sometimes you end up tunneling someone just because its the person you find. Not because you have gone out of your way to hunt them down or because you have gone back to hook to tunnel them. Its just the natural way that game has gone..
On top of this killers can no longer see the hook state of the survivors. So if your not taking notes you could end up tunneling without realizing. Even now I will hook someone and think Damn how are they dead what happened. not realizing i had multi hooked them because im just chasing whoever is around.
So please behaviour you need to do 2 things.Firstly you need to give more information because right now assumptions have to be made, and they are made based on previous changes made
secondly more thought needs to go into anti tunnel because based on the dev update these will really harm killers who don't tunnel intentionally and suffer from survivor induced tunneling.If you kill a survivor too fast then boom free gen progression for everyone. This means your damned if you do and damned if you don'tYou still have a survivor eliminated from the game. Unless the gen progression is massive, we're talking like over a 100% increase, its still in your favor, just not quite the extreme it currently is.
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Wow, that's a lot more than I expected. Honestly feel like some of this should have been done one piece at a time to see the impact, but overall it looks good. My worry is that it won't work, and then people will misidentify what doesn't work.
Custom Game settings: I think this is a bad idea. The game should be the game, if people want to make their own rules, great, but BHVR should not be spending time worrying about things like tournament play. It sets a horrible standard for how people will discuss the game.
Slugging: Recovering without pressing a button is nice, a version of tenacity is what I thought was going to happen. I don't think self-pickup is necessary, even at 90 seconds.
Tunneling
Hiding the unhook status: YES! Great change.
No collision: I've always thought that this will feel silly, but its been a common request from killers so we'll see how it works out.
Unique hooking: Despite a lot of the comments here, lots of killer players just got a buff. This goes with how BHVR has generally behaved with things like the anti-3 gen, killers lost an extreme strategy, but gained overall benefits in every other situation.
Lessened for S Tier killers: I have strange feelings about this. It's been called for a long time, but it basically admits that the game is going to have a top tier of killers. It's probably inevitable that this was the only way to balance them, but there will be lots of discussions going forward on which killers do or don't get included in this group.
Going to quote the next part:
Added new effects that disincentivize tunneling:If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial.If the Survivor that was last hooked is Sacrificed or Killed, generators cannot be regressed or blocked.
Generally a good idea, though we'll need specific numbers to actually get an idea of the impact.
I do wish this was a sliding scale and I think the 2nd part isn't really relevant (the idea of not hooking a survivor twice to kill them does not nearly matter as much as number of overall hooks).
Example
Survivor dead on 3 hooks: gens can't be regressed for rest of match, gen speed boost
Survivor dead on 4 hooks: gens can't be regressed for three minutes, gen speed boost
Survivor dead on 5 hooks: Gens can't be regressed for one minute, gen speed boost for 2 minutes.
Elusive mode: Sure, sounds good.
Tomes: We're getting new tomes and lore? How does this work with quests? I know everything else overshadows this, but good.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989427#Comment_3989427
"On skill expression he also makes the mistake many players do of only being able to judge the survivors off what they see. Survivors do have perks that are high risk / high reward, but if you only focus on the time that survivors pull it off you're missing the point. It would be like watching a few minutes of a basketball game and seeing a team not miss a single 3 pointer and concluding 3 pointers are too strong. You need to take the entire picture into account, successes and failures, and be aware that streaks of everything going right, or wrong, will happen."
The only perks that can even have any kind of failure factor om that level would be Shoulder the burden, Deliverance, Background Player, Dead Hard and Conviction (If you don't have a build for it). Meanwhile you have perks that are so easy if effortless to pull of like Vigil, WIGLF, Lithe, DS, Unbreakable, OTR, Resurgence, MTF, Soul Guard, Do no harm, Finesse, Dramaturgy, Deja Vu and Last Stand.
There are more but that should be enough to show most do not require much to get value, with the worst offenders giving the player an instant get out jail free card in a lot of situations.
"Additionally, when he lays out what the survivors can do, there's lots of 'ifs' (he does touch on the randomness issue a bit). You can bring a strong anti-tunnel build, but if someone else is tunneled, nothing to help. You can bring anti-slug, but if not slugged, useless. Lots of his examples of builds survivors can run actually highlight how many strategies killers have and the difficulty of survivors on trying to guess what they might run into."
Yes the game has a lot of RNG, a killer can bring hex perks into a game but they may get cleansed two second into the game and now you have no perk. Your not always going to get the value out of what you bring. But a lot of what separates the low tier players from higher tier players is game sense and what to follow up on, when to reset, when to commit to a gen, when to save someone.
"Then you have things like exhaustion and healing perks. Yes, survivors have lots of options, but primarily because BHVR has made them extremely hard to stack in meaningful ways. Once upon a time it was just 'run dead hard' on the exhaustion front, now survivors have a lot of viable options because DH was heavily nerfed. That is not an improvement to survivor in strength, though it does make for a healthier game."
"On the other hand, killer perks usually stack, so you can run 4 gen regression, or 4 aura read, or all hex, etc"
No Lithe, SB, balanced landing and so on are all really great perks the first two being hard meta, you cannot compare the state of exhaustion perks to old dead hard a perk that literally was a get out of jail free card when they were always viable its just dead hard was leagues stronger. Also no improvements since?
A lot of survs run Windows, SB/Lithe, vigil and either resurgence, resilience or finesse and that if all you want is just chase perks there are builds for pretty much everything.
Or you can run Dramaturgy and finesse another powerful combo then there is SB+Vigil+Fixated+COL a very powerful chase build that makes the already high uptime of SB even more available. Meanwhile killer has gen defence and aura reading that's it.
Allot of surv perks do stack in meaningful ways.
"And on the issue of gen regression perks since 6.1, the meta at the time was overpowered and incredibly stale. Yes, many things have been nerfed since then, but it was desperately needed."
So when surv perks get nurfed its "Now there is nothing left to use" when that is clearly wrong. Then you nurf all killer gen defence without introducing any alternative its "oh but it was needed". You also get more tunnelling and camping to boot since going for multiple hooks is now detrimental to you all it leaves the killer with is to tunnel, camp slug even harder than before.
"Hook stages: he compares these to gen times, which BHVR has also down, but they aren't close to equal. Unless the killer is camping, leaving the survivor on hook is always going to be a bad idea. On the other hand, 10 extra seconds is a minimum of 50 extra charges the survivors have to complete. One was an absolute nerf to survivors in literally every game, one was a nerf to killers in limited situations (which is how a lot of killer nerfs go, 3 genning, AFC, etc. are nerfs in situational circumstances)."
If you insta pull me in a public game like that im going myers mori you as dwight for it.
People should never just insta unhook I see this happen in lobby's and when I am playing surv its really annoying when you do that. When someone is on hook they are INVINCIBLE and cannot be touched anymore meaning you can leave them there untill last second to pull and the killer cannot stop you. The only time you pull early is if a second person goes down but at that point you are already failing horribly and the killer is demolishing your team or if you know the killer is somewhere else and cannot stop the unhooker.
"Basically: like a lot of these takes, he compares unalike things. He imagines a killer playing a weaker killer hitting a survivor team running all meta and that meta being executed against the strategy the killer pursues. But that's not a fair comparison. If you want to talk about the extreme maximum sweatiness end of things, you have to do it for both sides."
He did talk about this, that is why he said the power creep for surv has gone unnoticed because of the recent killers all being powerful untill the FNAF chapter when people started to take notice at the new killer was not great compared to Dracula and Ghoul. But if you look at the bigger picture the role as whole as gotten far worse if you are not playing these top 5 killers and with every new update its only getting worse.
The only perks that can even have any kind of failure factor om that level would be Shoulder the burden, Deliverance, Background Player, Dead Hard and Conviction (If you don't have a build for it). Meanwhile you have perks that are so easy if effortless to pull of like Vigil, WIGLF, Lithe, DS, Unbreakable, OTR, Resurgence, MTF, Soul Guard, Do no harm, Finesse, Dramaturgy, Deja Vu and Last Stand.The video you linked spends a huge amount of time disagreeing with you and goes into detail on how survivor perks are strong with practice.
But its also missing the broader point of what it takes to make a perk useful. Take WGLF, let's say a survivor follows a chase to get in position to use it. They give up gen time to try and get the rescue. If they get spotted or don't get to the down before the pick up, they've wasted valuable time. Even if they do get the pick up, but were off gens for a lot of time, it can easily be harmful. If you only look at the action of the pick up it looks easy with little trade offs, but misses the larger context that it takes to deploy the perk.
Then you have perks like unbreakable. Again, easy to use when downed, but the usefulness is highly dependent on how the killer plays and easy to have a trial where it gets no value.
Then there are perks that always get value, such as Deja Vu, but not nearly as much value as a perk that is more situational or requires more skill.
But a lot of what separates the low tier players from higher tier players is game sense and what to follow up on, when to reset, when to commit to a gen, when to save someone.Game sense is one of the few things in the game that is true for both sides. When to pursue a chase, what gen to go to, which survivor to chase, are what separates low tier and high tier killer players as well. It really has no bearing on this issue.
you cannot compare the state of exhaustion perks to old dead hard a perk that literally was a get out of jail free cardNot only can you, you have to. You can't compare how things have changed and just ignore the 'get out of jail free' card that survivors used to have.
Also no improvements since?That's not what I said. Nerfing DH made other exhaustion perks actually viable, making it look like survivors had more good perks. That was an improvement in game design, but if old DH returned all of those perks would suddenly look pointless.
Allot of surv perks do stack in meaningful ways.Missing that I was discussing exhaustion and healing (which the video focused on), which have self limiting factors. Just because survivors have multiple options in these categories doesn't have a huge impact on balance, they make for a more fun game, but whether survivors had three good exhaustion perks or seven is not a huge issue because they're only going to run one (and if they had a broken perk like old DH that would override the variety really quickly).
So when surv perks get nurfed its "Now there is nothing left to use" when that is clearly wrong.Strawman.
You also get more tunnelling and camping to boot since going for multiple hooks is now detrimental to you all it leaves the killer with is to tunnel, camp slug even harder than before.Except that's not true. That was the argument for the strong gen defense era, but tunneling and camping where just as prevalent then, if not more, because the gen defense made the tunnel even easier.
If you insta pull me in a public game like that im going myers mori you as dwight for it.This has nothing to do with the 10 extra seconds on hook argument.
There is a giant chasm between an insta pull and getting past the 60 seconds of the old hook states.
But if you look at the bigger picture the role as whole as gotten far worse if you are not playing these top 5 killers and with every new update its only getting worse.Except the bigger picture needs both a start date and to factor everything in. We're talking survivors losing things like DH (twice), MFT, the ability to heal in chase, etc. This actually was something I noticed in the video where he briefly discussed the killer improvements he actually liked, but then ignored those as he hyper focused the discussion on clown.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989432#Comment_3989432
When they originally announced 2v8 and every version since, I did wonder if 2v6 might have worked better for this reason.
Obviously would need rebalancing, but it was interesting to think about 🤔
It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would just need rebalancing but a total rethinking of the game. The 1 to 4 ratio is really baked into lots of game elements and design, I'm not even sure they could get away from that.
It also gets into a design concept that Almo (the dev who left and gave his thoughts on asyms) discussed a bit that having an overload on one side is not inherently a bad thing.
@Rick1998 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989264#Comment_3989264
i'm pretty sure they were asked about the upcoming mmr changes and the dev said they are no longer planning on releasing it anytime soon as after some testing it did not satisfy them .
I think this might be true, or that the MMR changes will be minor, because every time BHVR has discussed MMR they've said its working well.
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I don't see what MMR has to do with it.
There aren't enough survivor players to go around. They aren't secretly hiding at some different MMR bracket.
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@Ryan489x said:
just a general question. They’ve extended it every single time. Why not just run it for the full amount of time from the start. It kind of feels like false value
While it seems a bit silly, it gives them an out if people don't actually like the mode / aren't playing it. If the mode isn't popular, they can just let it end naturally, but extensions allow them to respond to what the players are doing.
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Others have already answered this, but I'll throw a couple of points on.
A lot of the video is a non-sequitur to the title. He talks about the merits of rewarding skill expression (skill floor vs skill ceiling) and whether it is good or bad that some things are made easier and more accessible. That's basically a discussion on a different topic.
On skill expression he also makes the mistake many players do of only being able to judge the survivors off what they see. Survivors do have perks that are high risk / high reward, but if you only focus on the time that survivors pull it off you're missing the point. It would be like watching a few minutes of a basketball game and seeing a team not miss a single 3 pointer and concluding 3 pointers are too strong. You need to take the entire picture into account, successes and failures, and be aware that streaks of everything going right, or wrong, will happen.
Perks: he doesn't address a few of the major things here. Perks are primarily what the survivors have to make them distinct. Killers have powers that provide them uniqueness. With 40 killers and only one type of survivor, perks on killer are always going to face the fact that if a killer perk is broken on even a single killer, then the perk is broken.
Additionally, when he lays out what the survivors can do, there's lots of 'ifs' (he does touch on the randomness issue a bit). You can bring a strong anti-tunnel build, but if someone else is tunneled, nothing to help. You can bring anti-slug, but if not slugged, useless. Lots of his examples of builds survivors can run actually highlight how many strategies killers have and the difficulty of survivors on trying to guess what they might run into.
Then you have things like exhaustion and healing perks. Yes, survivors have lots of options, but primarily because BHVR has made them extremely hard to stack in meaningful ways. Once upon a time it was just 'run dead hard' on the exhaustion front, now survivors have a lot of viable options because DH was heavily nerfed. That is not an improvement to survivor in strength, though it does make for a healthier game.
On the other hand, killer perks usually stack, so you can run 4 gen regression, or 4 aura read, or all hex, etc.
And on the issue of gen regression perks since 6.1, the meta at the time was overpowered and incredibly stale. Yes, many things have been nerfed since then, but it was desperately needed.
Hook stages: he compares these to gen times, which BHVR has also down, but they aren't close to equal. Unless the killer is camping, leaving the survivor on hook is always going to be a bad idea. On the other hand, 10 extra seconds is a minimum of 50 extra charges the survivors have to complete. One was an absolute nerf to survivors in literally every game, one was a nerf to killers in limited situations (which is how a lot of killer nerfs go, 3 genning, AFC, etc. are nerfs in situational circumstances).
Basically: like a lot of these takes, he compares unalike things. He imagines a killer playing a weaker killer hitting a survivor team running all meta and that meta being executed against the strategy the killer pursues. But that's not a fair comparison. If you want to talk about the extreme maximum sweatiness end of things, you have to do it for both sides.
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DbD killers tend to fall into two categories:
Easy to pick up, but weak at higher levels
Hard to pick up, but strong at higher levels.
BHVR used to have 'difficulty categories' for the killers that kind of indicated these levels. Some people don't like this design, others do, and some think its just an inevitable part of asym.
Trapper is an easy to pick up killer and, as you say, mistakes are more on the survivors part. If you made Trapper viable at more experienced levels, he would be an absolute monster against beginners.
-An example of this is your idea of increasing the area of the traps you suggest. Where to put the traps is one of the types of skill expression Trapper players should learn over time, this would jump over that.
Oni is on the other side of the coin, he's quite strong in the hands of an experienced Oni player. If you improved him to make him stronger for newer killers, he'd be far too powerful in the hands of experienced players.
Hag - I don't have too many thoughts on Hag, other than that she probably vaults the most on people's tier lists because some people have her in D and others high A.
Ghostface -
Stalk to expose a survivor and get a one hit down, sounds good at first but the setup time often offsets the benefit of one hit downs. -GF's first chase is very important. An early stalk and down puts him in a great position, while if the survivors run out the first stalk he's way behind. It's a risk reward inherent to his character.It often feels like other killers could get two hits in the time it takes to fully stalk and land one making proper use of his power no more effective than a basic M1 killer.- You don't have to always commit to the stalk, you can get stalks 99ed on multiple survivors and then pop them later in the match.