crogers271
crogers271
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001031#Comment_4001031
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/U52XHLJMSGQB/herunterladen.jpg
And again, survivor gaslighting. Complains about gamebalance, like item xy is op, is legit. (I remember when insta blinds hit me through my ear) Complaining about how someone is allowed to play in a pvp game is unhealthy for the game community. And in an asymetrical game, the non power role/team should not be able to bully the power role. That in itself is a serious indicator for a bad gamebalance and should be adressed. And in a game that is balanced around a team that is not on voice chat, SWF on voice chat are a problem, because than, the killer and solo survivor are to weak. If there is voice chat, the game needs to be balanced for it.
What survivor want here is a rulebook for killer. A Code of conduct. The amount of extras for unhooked survivors is already through the roof. Unsafe saves (stupid playa) shouldn't be rewarded.
Everyone being able to get up from dying by themself is against the spirit of the team needing each other against the powerrole.
And in an asymetrical game, the non power role/team should not be able to bully the power role.So basically, this is how you are telling survivors they should play the game. A rulebook.
And in a game that is balanced around a team that is not on voice chat, SWF on voice chat are a problem, because than, the killer and solo survivor are to weak. If there is voice chat, the game needs to be balanced for it.If there is tunneling, the game needs to be balanced around it. Say, by giving the survivors a gen boost unless the killer achieves a certain number of hooks before an elimination.
Everyone being able to get up from dying by themself is against the spirit of the team needing each other against the powerrole.The killer being able to focus on a single target where everyone else just sits on generators is against the spirit of being survivors.
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You're just saying 'these examples I like, so they don't count'. Except you're trying to turn it into some massive us vs them issue when its much more 'is X good or bad for the game' type discussions.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000552#Comment_4000552
I don't need to, because killer don't brag about how the other plays should be allowed to play.
Survivors mindset: there is no gen rush, we just die our objective, it's the killers Lack of skill.
But killer should only be allowed to kill the way we wabt it. Killer should be not allowed to chase after an an unhooked znless he gut fully healed. Killer should be allowed to hook the same survivor in a row. But in case he dowbs a recwbt hooked survivor,, that guy deserves a free unbreakable.
You notice the difference? Survivor DEMAND rules hiw the killer should play. That's not healthy for a PVP game. If you want that, go ask for a PVE mode with killer bots.
You notice the difference? Survivor DEMAND rules hiw the killer should play. That's not healthy for a PVP game. If you want that, go ask for a PVE mode with killer bots.Yes, killers have never had a problem with how survivors played or have strategies completely removed from the game.
I must have imagined when things like FTP+BU existed and killers complained about it until it was removed.
And all those complaints about survivors going down on pallets with conviction? Guess those never happened.
And no killer has ever asked for Windows to be nerfed because it is a 'low skill' perk.
Let's not forget how all killers love SWFs and would never accuse them of being cheaters.
Instablinds? Mathieu Cote was practically doubled over with joy when he had to play against it.
Of course bully squads are a welcome and valuable part of the game, according to killers. They are clearly called bully squads because its a compliment much in the way Teddy Roosevelt used the word.
Truly killers would never suggest that certain things survivors can do are unfair or should be removed from the game.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000729#Comment_4000729
That is my whole point. Your argument against tunneling could be applied to so many things, it wasn't a good argument.
I'm not the one who made the argument originally, though I generally agree.
The 'this complaint can be made against anything' ignores that just because an argument can be made doesn't make it good or bad, one needs to look at the substance of the issue.
A better example on the survivor side than what you brought up might be survivors who over rely on syringes. If BHVR was going to nerf syringes and they were saying they needed them to win, it would be a valid point to say that people became too dependent on them.
But people's dependency on them wouldn't have any worth in a discussion of the overall game balance and pointing out to such players that there reliance on them boosted their MMR above their skill level would be correct.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000545#Comment_4000545
You could say that about anything.
"if you NEED to take hits then you are playing out of your skillset and playing against people better than you. That is going to happen. You are going to lose at some point. Yall need to accept the loss and allow mmr (which noone can see, so ego wont be harmed), to drop to a level where your natural skillset is viable. Thats what mmr is for, pairing players of similar skill against each other. By bodyblocking for that desperate cheese method of a win, you are artificially inflating your mmr which forces you to continue to bodyblock. An actual self-fulfilling prophecy. The comp kid desperation for a win is the only thing keep the myth 'taking hits is necessary' alive."
You act like tunneling is some exploit that breaks the game. That killers are like "damn it, I only have 1 hook at 2 gens, I need to press the tunnel button now" and then all survivors instantly turn to dust.
It's not. It's a strategy. Sometimes you win because you tunnel, sometimes you win regardless of if you tunnel, sometimes you lose because you tunnel. Needing to tunnel to win a game is no different than needing to take hits to win or or to prerun to win.
On the subject of you could say the same about anything
It's a strategy. Sometimes you win because you tunnel, sometimes you win regardless of if you tunnel, sometimes you lose because you tunnelInfinites, old, old Dead Hard, MFT, old Dead Hard, WTP+BU, etc were all strategies. As is gen rush, conviction, looping builds, sabo teams, etc are all strategies. Sometimes you win with them, sometimes you would win without them, and sometimes you lose.
The fact that something is a strategy does not mean it is too easy, too powerful, harms the game, or, as is the case with tunneling, all of the above.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000001#Comment_4000001
I think they’re referring to the 60% kill rate target. A lot of people believe this is “unfair” and “favors the killer side.” It’s subjective and everyone is going to have a different opinion about what is “fair”.
To clarify, I think the post I'm thinking of was made by Peanits, and I distinctly remember it saying 'relatively balanced'.
Which would imply BHVR is aware and accepts that it isn't properly balanced, in favour of the killer.
I believe you mean this one
Quote part
We try to keep Killers near a 60% kill rate on average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000673#Comment_4000673
Yeah killer wait times have been brutal. I can play about double the survivor matches in the same time slot.
Kind of crazy because I've been following the numbers since there were so many arguments about what queue times would be pre-patch. Nearly 8 minutes for killers on the German server at the moment.
If you just play during primetime hours servers look reasonable around the world, but outside those hours they quickly get out of whack.
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The title of your post is:
Some people don´t want to adapt am I right?I was really expecting this to be about killers and their general reaction to having to adapt their playstyles.
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Makes zero sense to have the killer punished for an unspoken ruleBecause the unspoken rule is becoming a spoken rule.
BHVR has, hopefully, realized how much tunneling ruins the game and will address it.
The BMing at the gates is an unrelated issue. This is about fixing something that has nothing to do with BM, but is a flaw in the game design.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999819#Comment_3999819
Except in reality the killer que is super unhealthy right now. You have close to a 50/50 split of killers to survivors playing when you need 25/75 half of you could quit and the game would literally be in a better spot... Why do you think they are rolling out play while you wait? I've never had to wait as a survivor games que basically instantly while it does seem bad waiting 3-5 mins for a killer game is really really bad and points to a dying game. But you can clearly see it's not the player base is still huge. But to many people are giving up on survivor game play especially when playing alone.
I think you're missing the sarcasm.
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@Poochkips said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456333/am-i-the-only-one-who-is-tired-of-this
Long one here.
One thing I've learned over the course of this discourse was just how many people have double standards when it comes to certain things about this game. Not everyone obviously, but the amount double standards I've seen within this community can be a bit wild. A while back I made a post talking about Unbreakable being potentially base kit, and a lot of people basically said "Not happening" in laymen's terms, with most not even bringing suggestions on how to fix the current issue of slugging. (There were some good bits of conversation though)
An example of double standards. I have been told a couple things. One popular argument being, "You shouldn't need a perk to fix certain problems/issues." An example is when anyone brings up gen regression perks etc. Some people saying they shouldn't have to bring perks to stop certain mechanics of the game, but that's the actual point of the system in play. It's all about countering and adapting. I've seen people complain about flashlights, and when I've told people to bring lightborn when they see said flashlights. A perk that completely stops people from being able to use a popular aspect of the game. To which i get the same answer or similar I'd say about 80% of the time.
However, when you bring up slugging, people just say "Just bring unbreakable if it's so much of a problem"
Like…what? By that same argument, I shouldn't need to bring a perk to stop a mechanic thats being heavily utilized. Its more of an "It's okay for me, but not for thee" kind of shenanigans. And even then, it would probably be complained about to high hell until it got a nerf with 16 specific conditions in play before it would become active (This is hyperbolic/sarcasm, but you get the point) if it became so popular. Just look at how poorly people took the botany knowledge buff…..
I personally believe basekit unbreakable wouldn't be that bad, but think it should only start counting when 2 or more survivors are downed, and it has to be for like 150 seconds or something. Which some would say it's worthless then, but it's not supposed to be 100% of a crutch. Kind of like the anti camp. The people the changes really would have effected were killers who struggle with mobility or downing people in a chase fast enough to apply proper pressure. Which i think if that's the case, devs should look to tweaking and changing THOSE killers. (Save my boy trapper please) And i'm not talking about what they attempted to do with new Myers….. Not every killer should need a dash to make things less problematic. The changes they showed like base kit barbeque and other new built in features and the way some of them were more powerful on some killers, and weaker on others. (Nurse not being able to utilize the new system as strongly that they were attempting to implement, as it would have been really strong on her is a prime example) shows that they can add passive background perks on killers. Like make a system that if you're playing a less mobile killer, gens take a bit longer to repair vs one who is highly mobile, where they can stay the way they are at current. Something like that i don't know.
Last thing. This game, unfortunately, majority of the time, is stomp or be stomped. It's rare to find an in-between from my experience on both sides. You either have a really good killer, or ARE a really good killer, or get really good survivors, or ARE a really good survivor. Same for the bad aspect of this.An example of double standards. I have been told a couple things. One popular argument being, "You shouldn't need a perk to fix certain problems/issues."Kind of, but there's a key difference.
With gen kick perks people are arguing they are needed to win the game. A comparison might be to old, old dead hard. When people talk about not using mechanics to fix game aspects its more about the game can feel like its completely won or lost in the lobby.
DbD has improved on this aspect, but it used to be
Tunneling killer? Should have brought anti-tunnel.
Tunneling killer someone else? Should have brought anti-tunnel to protect the other survivors.
Camping killer? Should have brought reassurance.
Slugging? Exponential or unbreakable.
3 genning? Potential energy.
Etc
Right now we really only have the tunneling options truly left to address. If you bring the right perks you win, wrong ones and you lose.
Take the Lightborn example on a better way for perks to work. If you bring it and they go for flashlight saves, great, you benefit. But its not the only strategy you have to dealing with flashlights and the advantage it gives is not match deciding all on its own.
but think it should only start counting when 2 or more survivors are downed, and it has to be for like 150 seconds or something. Which some would say it's worthless then, but it's not supposed to be 100% of a crutch. Kind of like the anti camp.It would indeed be pretty worthless at that extreme.
The comparison to the AFC, that did change the game. Killers standing in front of the hook was stopped. While the timer could do with some minor adjustments, it did its job of fixing the most extreme cases.
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Being this thread has turned into a discussion of the game's complexity, a little story.
I volunteer at a local high school and was at an event right after graduation. I was talking with a girl about video games and I mentioned DbD, this is how it went.
Her: You play DbD? I love DbD!
Me: Really? What do you play?
Her: Well, I don't play anymore. I kind of grew out of it at the end of Middle School. But I dressed up as Susie for Halloween!
My feelings on the complexity of DbD deflated pretty quickly then.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999449#Comment_3999449
My prediction is that if and when the system does come back, it will only punish hard tunnelling (triple hooking the same Survivor in succession), the Elusive status will be halved in time to something like 15 seconds and all the Killer buffs will be removed because there won't be justification for them anymore. I'd be sad to lose the base-kit mini pop, because then I wouldn't need to burn a perk slot on regression or slowdown on my better Killers and could try for more varied builds. It would've also solved the issue of there being no decent regression available to new Killer players (I know we have Deadlock in the pool of general perks at the moment, but the Hellraiser chapter might return in the not too distant future and then there would be nothing again).
I think the only anti-tunnel system that will pass the PTB will be the one that won't negatively affect the way content creators play too much, because they tend to be the ones who set the tone for discussion and they have the biggest platforms. I'm not saying content creators don't make a lot of good points because they often do, but there's also a heavy dose of politics, emotion, bias and rhetoric in a lot of their talking points to unpick. Others have also made the point that the game is probably too mature in its lifecycle at this point for a lot of players to accept any really big changes (it probably didn't help that they tried adding all of this in one patch, either).
But like you say, finding a happy medium between over tuned and so weak it would be pointless could take quite a long time to figure out.
My prediction is that if and when the system does come back, it will only punish hard tunnelling (triple hooking the same Survivor in succession), the Elusive status will be halved in time to something like 15 seconds and all the Killer buffs will be removed because there won't be justification for them anymore.Part of me expects this might happen and while not the best outcome I'd be fine with it, though I think there would be an outcry about the loss of killer buffs, but I think/hope BHVR understands that its a two way street.
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@Clevarz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999482#Comment_3999482
its a matter of the time it takes as we currently dont know when they’ll bring it back I meant as in like showing the changes as they tweak them
BHVR doesn't seem to think the issue is just a matter of, as an example, whether the gen speed buff should be 25% or 20% though. If it was that I think they'd just make the tweaks they thought were needed. The fact that they held it for a second go makes me think there will be some larger changes.
@Clevarz said:
Would it be better if they instead of Delaying the Anti-Tunnel and Anti-Slug They instead tweaked it and Republished?
it is a PTB after all they could just release different versions with different stats maybe even different mechanics and Let killers and survivors test it to see which version should go public but it's just an Idea though not really sure how that would work out so I want to hear you guy's ideas or thoughts! :D
See you in the fog!they could just release different versions with different stats maybe even different mechanicsI don't know to what degree this would work out. You'd get lots of crosstalk in the discussions.
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One-two-three-four - I feel like the devs really liked the vids some people where doing going for the fastest escape world record, and they put this perk in the game to revive the race.
Road Life - This perk might be one of the most hilariously over the top bad perks. I don't get the idea that 100% heal speed would need to be behind such restrictions, but 50%, nah you can just have that all the time.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999460#Comment_3999460
I guess you don't understand what I'm saying, given your repeated use of...interesting... terminology, so I'll have to bow out of this conversation.
I can't keep you in a discussion but I'd like to know what terminology you consider 'interesting' so I can try and explain it.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999359#Comment_3999359
You saw my videos and posts about weaponizing no collision?
Is that not evidence?
I'm further confused - most of the issues people had with the PTB were well documented.
You saw my videos and posts about weaponizing no collision?Is that not evidence?Evidence of what? You said you don't personally have a problem with it.
Does it break the game? Is it too powerful? Does it harm the game design?
This thing occurs, okay, why does it matter? A statement of fact isn't evidence unless it supports the conclusion (example of a factual statement that does not actually explain the conclusion: tunneling Nurses are in the game thus the patch must go through).
How is it such a big issue that BHVR had to delay the patch, and why couldn't they fix it (this can't be answered by you as mentioned, but people are crashing out at BHVR and its reasonable to expect them to give more of an answer)?
I'm further confused - most of the issues people had with the PTB were well documented.Most of people's opinions are well documented (this also brings up the issue going back to my earlier posts about having to guess at your meaning, whose opinions are we discussing, I put my analysis of Hens take in here).
People have well documented opinions on their thoughts of Nurse, Blight, Wraith, basically name your killer and you can find people describing their problems with them.
That doesn't make their opinions true.
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It's not comparable to other games given the asym nature. Things like ranks would never work because the best Nurse can never be matched up with the second best Nurse.
Usually in a game people are competing for the same objective, or both teams get a turn on each side. DbD doesn't have that and it can't practically have it outside the organized comp scene.
I liken it to basketball. You can play just screwing around and no one is keeping score, you can get into organized leagues and teams and practice together. DbD can be both of those, but I compare it to pick up basketball. People are just grouped together, with someone doing a rough job to match up skill levels, and people are trying to win, but none of them would be interested in doing dedicated practices.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998767#Comment_3998767
Timber mentioned something like that too and I'm still skeptical that they'd be able to implement a special queue for Fog Whisperers only. But I will say if that is true, it's pretty terrible (in my opinion).
Content creators and fog whisperers have been targeted by hackers who have even been able to track the ID and force their way into the lobby.
If there was a special queue it would have been revealed.
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Being people keep talking about the evidence, I went and looked at it. The Hens video was on the front of my Youtube page so I watched it and felt like he really missed the point.
Then I looked back through this thread and saw that @tjt85 has already commented on it and I don't want to just repeat his good points, so I'll try to make some new ones (though I do need to reiterate that the video is 2 2ks, a 0k, and a 4k, which seems absolutely fine - especially given many people seem to argue that survivors usually have an extreme advantage at this level).
First, the trials were so much more enjoyable to watch than your standard comp fare. It wasn't just proxy camping and tunneling, there was far more gameplay. I wasn't even expecting that and was left far more enthused about the changes than when I went into the video.
Second the trials are a mix of comp rules and the new system which inherently creates problems for overall balance discussions.
Third, on the reddit thread people say even though the survivors are from Invictus, normally Obii would 4k with Blight on this map.
Isn't that a problem? The best killer player in the world should not just be expected to 4k the best survivors in the world.
Fourth, in the Blight match there seems to be a big overreaction to the gen speed boost. After the elimination the survivors are split, two on one gen, one on another that already has ~55% progress. The gens are getting completed at this point regardless of the gen speed boost.
Now saving ~8 seconds isn't irrelevant, but his reaction was way too extreme.
Finally, the ending conclusion didn't effectively contrast the killer buffs with the survivors. We got examples of how powerful the killer buffs could be during the trials, but we didn't really compare those to the survivor buffs.
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On a personal level, there's a lot in the patch I don't think is strictly necessary and I disagree with BHVR's general 'take it to the extreme' philosophy on changes.
But watching the trials things looked fine. At worst this seems to be a video showing we need some slight adjustments, not proof of something being broken, and overall this looked like a much healthier game than what we normally get.
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@XboxPlayur said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999359#Comment_3999359
Nice chatGPT response. He doesn’t have to spoon feed you every example, they’re all over multiple platforms. You’ve proven you have no leg to stand on by pretentiously arguing semantics instead of engaging any actual points he brings up.
Have you ever actually seen a chat gpt response?
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999331#Comment_3999331
"What is the overall impact when considering all the changes?"
The problem in question only occurs on the PTB and is therefore measured as such."Is it bad if no the collision impact can be used aggressively?"
I don't personally mind, but it certainly invites tunneling, which doesn't seem to be a good fit for a mechanic meant to prevent tunneling and punishes killers that do not wish to tunnel."Is BHVR's goal to completely remove no collision as an aggressive tool?"
I believe the new Elusive status off hook was stated to be used as a tool to give people a chance to escape the killer, but again, I'm PERSONALLY in favor of it being used aggressively but I can see the issues it presents despite this."What other solutions, besides a complete delay of the patch, could have been implemented?"
Who knows? Apparently none, hence the delay - no one has a full scope of the PTB process or coding."If you argue there is ample evidence, but don't specify, but also agree that some of the things people are using as evidence is wrong, then its not really a discussion."
No. I'm stating that claims made WITHOUT EVIDENCE do not hold up and should be disregarded - I'm pretty sure this is clear from my wording."If I say Killer is brokenly strong, and someone disagrees and argues about Trapper facing a SWF, and I argue about a comp Nurse hitting soloq, we're discussing very different examples but trying to generalize it to the same thing."
I'm directly talking about a tool on the PTB (in my example) that can be used the same way 100% of the time. In this instance, it's body blocking with Elusive. Any player on the PTB can emulate this tactic with zero practice.
"We're in an amorphous space where anything can be true. You can bounce back and forth with someone talking about people's reactions while meaning completely different things."
Reality is true. People's opinions can adhere to this or not, but there is always evidence of what is real and factual whether it lines up with someone's personal take. Not really sure what you're getting at.The problem in question only occurs on the PTB and is therefore measured as such.I never said anything different.
I don't personally mind, but it certainly invites tunneling, which doesn't seem to be a good fit for a mechanic meant to prevent tunneling and punishes killers that do not wish to tunnel.This is two different things.
The first part is an issue of player enjoyment. Does this, or does this not make for a better game?
The second part is whether the design fits BHVR's goals.
I believe the first part is far more important, though trying to gauge overall player impressions can be incredibly difficult. I think the second requires guessing at BHVR's goals, which is also very difficult given their scattered communications, and I believe tend to get oversimplified by the community.
Broadly speaking, I think many people talked themselves into the idea that BHVR was forcing players to play in a certain way. I do not think it is their intention to completely remove tunneling or the possibility of an unhook acting as a defender, but to make those tactics less viable.
Who knows? Apparently none, hence the delay - no one has a full scope of the PTB process or codinPart of the issue is BHVR has been talking about anti-slugging coming for a long while. Both possibilities justify player anger:
1: They listened to bad arguments
2: They released an update so poorly designed they had to walk it back entirely.
There are lots of ways this anger could have been mitigated or anticipated (it should have been no surprise there was going to be massive backlash). I, and I think a lot of players, are past the point of giving them the benefit of the doubt.
No. I'm stating that claims made WITHOUT EVIDENCE do not hold up and should be disregarded - I'm pretty sure this is clear from my wording.This is axiomatic. It is a truism that could be probably be applied to the forums at any point and, as I'll get to later, I think you're doing the same thing.
I'm directly talking about a tool on the PTB (in my example) that can be used the same way 100% of the time. In this instance, it's body blocking with Elusive. Any player on the PTB can emulate this tactic with zero practice.Right now you are, but that didn't come up to the second page of the discussion. Until then the post could have been about anything.
Reality is true. People's opinions can adhere to this or not, but there is always evidence of what is real and factual whether it lines up with someone's personal take.But your posts don't do that.
Despite arguing about people not using evidence, you don't either. You're just relying on 'it's out there' and put the burden on people to disprove a potentially moving target. There are lots of arguments out there, absolutely, but which of them prove the issues you are talking about?
This also relates to my other point, one good argument that supports a position is worth far more than hundreds of arguments that do it poorly.
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Anti-tunnel - basically, I don't think BHVR wants this though it has been suggested many times before. They still want the possibility of going after the unhooked to be an element of the game.
Anti-slug - Why would we take bleed out away?
The point of the anti-slug is not just when the killer is camping the down, its just overall anti-slug.
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Argument by definition is never very effective and just reads as pedantic. At best you get people to go 'okay, I didn't mean party game, I guess I meant casual game'. It doesn't have any merit on their points.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999323#Comment_3999323
So if I see/post how collision removal can be used aggressively with video examples that explain the point/issues, that's not true?
If it can happen in every instance of the status being applied, I'd certainly argue that it's true.
There's a stark differences in someone making a claim and someone being able to demonstrate it.
Any issues that I've seen people have with the PTB that gain any traction were usually backed up with video evidence and an explanation.
I'll agree that there were certainly some exaggerations/histrionics, but those statements fall apart under analysis and should be disregarded as such.
So if I see/post how collision removal can be used aggressively with video examples that explain the point/issues, that's not true?It's not a complete argument.
It is missing:
What is the overall impact when considering all the changes?
Is it bad if no the collision impact can be used aggressively?
Is BHVR's goal to completely remove no collision as an aggressive tool? (this one depends on the person because some people will argue within BHVR's stance on the game, others on what is the best overall game)
What other solutions, besides a complete delay of the patch, could have been implemented?
This follows into something else -
I'll agree that there were certainly some exaggerations/histrionics, but those statements fall apart under analysis and should be disregarded as such.If you argue there is ample evidence, but don't specify, but also agree that some of the things people are using as evidence is wrong, then its not really a discussion.
If I say Killer is brokenly strong, and someone disagrees and argues about Trapper facing a SWF, and I argue about a comp Nurse hitting soloq, we're discussing very different examples but trying to generalize it to the same thing.
We're in an amorphous space where anything can be true. You can bounce back and forth with someone talking about people's reactions while meaning completely different things.
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@Raccoon said:
Have people really avoided Twitch/Reddit/YouTube/these very forums during the PTB?
Sincerely asking as it's not very hard to find various instances of issues with the PTB.
Burying your head in the sand and farming updoots doesn't distort reality, I'm afraid.
A lot of people believing something is not evidence its true.
If you want to argue that BHVR couldn't go through with it given their customer reaction, okay.
But that's not evidence of what is frequently being claimed.
Lots of the complaints, while common, where flat out wrong. Arguments that killers couldn't tunnel were absurd. Arguments that didn't mention killer buffs were avoiding the overall patch changes. Arguments like 'slugging gives no pressure' were such radical exaggerations that it was impossible to take them seriously.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996889#Comment_3996889
To be fair, it could probably be easily circumvented: Once the exit gates are powered, give each survivor a buildup meter. Have actions like standing in/around the exit gates build up the meter (at different rates depending on factors like distance and whether it is open, of course) and have the meter be affected by other actions like 99%ed exit gates also slowly build the meter as well. Once it procs, some combination of gate blocking/exposed/hindered/Killer Instinct/whatever debuff(s) would essentially secure they get punished for letting it build up for its full duration. How much/little visibility is provided to the survivor themselves could be adjusted in relation to how harsh the buildups are.
Tension gets added to survivors weighing staying for a save vs leaving, survivors who are actively seeking the exit or being chased to an open exit are unaffected, people who leave promptly are unaffected, only people who hang around and refuse their opportunity to leave get punished. All by creating a simple "scoring" system while adjusting and monitoring the growth rates for different methods of circumvention. And since it would be tracked specifically on a per survivor basis, it would be easy to have up to 4 instances running concurrently without having to worry about variables like which killer is present.
My only concern would be how badly a system like that could be fumbled.
That said, I think the best solution is for neither side to have the option after the anti slug changes get ironed out. For every "survivor whack a mole hostage" scenario, there will be plenty of ones where people will be able to use it to just go next if 2 slugs is really enough to trigger it. A better solution would just be to make that type of slugging reportable under hostage taking, especially since the server should theoretically have plenty of timestamp evidence to corroborate reports. The anti-slug and tunnel changes do a lot to the arguments for why it was so forgiving for survivors, so the arguments will need to be restructured around where they land.
Missed this comment:
To be fair, it could probably be easily circumventedMy only concern would be how badly a system like that could be fumbled.That's what I mean by easy to code and why I set out a few conditions to meet (realistically there are probably more and I'm over simplifying). Coding player intent is very difficult.
I'd add on that not only could it be fumbled, but it would likely eat up more time in figuring out the numbers, implementing, testing, etc.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
Theres alot to unpack here, but we should all want the best of both roles. Heres my diagnosis and recommendations. Hopefully no matter your stance, you agree.
I'm not gonna bore anyone with personal life and #########, but I am a very unbiased player when it comes to whats best for the game's balance. I'm actually studying Game Design in University at the moment, because ever since I started playing DBD in 2016, I've always wanted to work for DBD's Balance Team.
- The Anti Tunnel and Anti Slug machanics had good intentions, specifically for Casual players as stated by the devs.
- They were noticeably overtuned and strengthened forms of frustrating gameplay for killers, like bully squads forcing garunteed pallet saves.
- The changes make all forms of tunneling too hard to do, and if you manage to succeed, you were severely punished.
What tunneling I find unacceptable is tunneling at 5-3 gens. It's unnecessary, its annoying to vs, and this update fixed it very well.
What form of tunneling is acceptable to me is when almost all generators have been repaired, and forcing someone out of the game to reduce pressure is the only way to win at this point in a match. This update destroyed all forms of tunneling by making catching a recently unhooked survivor too hard and long, while actively removing your ability to defend generators if you succeed in killing them.
Simple number tweaks to the punishment requirements and a new requirement can easily salvage the machanic, I'd have no problem with it as either role if: A, the minamum stage requirement to avoid giving free gen speed was changed to 4 stages and 3 or more generators are incomplete. B, killing a survivor after hooking them previously to make all forms of generator defense disabled should also require 3 or more incomplete generators to trigger. C, when 2 generators or less remain, the Hook Protection duration is lowered to 10 seconds.
This way, actually tunneling someone (trying to kill them when spreading hooks can still be an option) is properly punished for, while tunneling in end game isn't because thats necessary to win as majority of the roster.
Anti Slug is bad simply because its a direct buff to SWFs and doesn't help casuals much at all. The auto recovery is good, but also giving basekit Tenacity wasn't. Choosing between recovering and crawling was strategic, you either try to get picked up while the killer is away, or you set up for a grasp save. This update made it far too easy for coordinated groups of survivors to garuntee saves with Power Struggle and Flip Flop, as well as any Background Player + Flashlight builds. It was quite literally impossible to avoid getting stunned if these players managed to get in your lobby.
The machanic's basekit unbreakable is quite flawed. A strong effect that is never going to occur unless you're vsing a Bully Squad. It can be fixed by: A, making the resolve bar (Anti Slug) pause when survivors are near you, similarly to Anti Camp. B, make recovering or crawling a choice again. C, reduce the timer to 30 seconds, but it has to be regained each time its used. D, basekit Soul Guard if the killer is ground camping, but this and the machanic entirely disables when all generators are complete. E, the machanic completely disables when 2 survivors remain.
This aims to target extreme slugging only, while not making survivors completely immortal if they coordinate builds together. Anti Slug will actually help you pick yourself up more often if the killer is capable of picking you up, but chooses not to. Slugging for the 4K is still a viable strategy, since the 2 remaining Survivors can't use it anymore.
- In an attempt to balance these machanics further, the devs temporarily delayed their release, stating they want these features to be "less punishing for killers." For reasons stated, this statement is completely true and quite frankly seemed kindof obviously broken.
There is nothing wrong with that. They aren't too sure what should be done to balance it quite yet, and its a big machanic that's going to need testing before hitting live servers. Its not something they can just quickly number buff and send out post PTB, coding other changes takes time and alot of work, believe me, I'd know.
What I want to know is, do you agree? I'll put a poll, and I want unbiased explanations on your thoughts. Thank you.
I am a very unbiased player when it comes to whats best for the game's balance.We all have biases and limitations in our knowledge based on our own experiences.
Or put another way, everyone thinks they are unbiased. Declaring it tends to look more suspicious than a person who just gives their thoughts.
The example here is you aren't dealing with the killer buffs at all. If it was just an anti-tunnel mechanic without anything else to the other side, then we could limit the discussion to the more extreme circumstances.
A, the minamum stage requirement to avoid giving free gen speed was changed to 4 stages and 3 or more generators are incompleteYou discuss SWF abuse later, but catch up mechanics like this are also abusable. If it it looks like the killer is going to tunnel, or if the survivors just take it as a strategy, they could spread out their gen progress around the map.
Choosing between recovering and crawling was strategic,Sure, but the anti-tunnel also increases strategy and there is a lot of argument against that. Killers would have a strategic decision between going after a survivor for an elimination, but give up gen speed, or looking for a survivor that would give them more hooks.
But one gets treated as punishment instead of having to make a strategic choice.
Looking at your title:
The Divide In Killer/Survivor Stance Is Shockingly A 50/50 Split As Of This UpdateThere are lots of things in this update that I, personally, don't think are necessary. I didn't think more anti slug was needed at all, and I probably would have just given the survivors the hide the unhook mechanic and the elusive status for 10 to 15 seconds. The killer buffs would have been much more limited and the perk overhaul would not be needed.
But I've spent a lot of time arguing seemingly in defense of the patch because the takes have been absurd, factually wrong, or only looking at part of the issue.
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998373#Comment_3998373
On live survivors either choose to first either crawl or recover. That is decision making by it's definition.
On positioning. I made it too general. Apologies. Bad positioning as in grouping up for no reason against like an Oni for example. You as survivor should split. Dying in corners is just annoying as killer and you cannot leave them anymore. For the power struggle back player pallet save- it just puts the killer in lose lose situation where a survivor will be picked up no matter what they will do.
Snowballing. No, it is punishing. You cannot slug for any decent amount of time to create pressure since survivors will crawl and recover. Finding survivor on the floor even after 30-40ish sec is difficult on the ptb not to mention Deerstalker getting a rework.
That Sadako change. That's not a number tweak/change, you have just changed how anti-tunnel works with Sadako. Number tweak would be like making the haste duration smaller or repair boost going from 25% to 30% for example.
On live survivors either choose to first either crawl or recover. That is decision making by it's definition.Here is what you said in the post -
Anti-slug removes any decision making from survivor.Any is way too much. Survivors still have decisions about crawling toward teammates, crawling to hide, crawling to pallets. It takes one element of the decision making away, and I agree it shouldn't, but let's not go overboard.
That Sadako change. That's not a number tweak/change, you have just changed how anti-tunnel works with Sadako.You're artificially limiting the topic to try and make your point in a post you created. It's a simple tweak that could be made.
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@Hannacia said:
Killers literally got punished with these changes. That 6 hooks stages is too much. I saw multiple people playing and they had 5 hooks and 2 people on death hook and 1 hook on another..never tunneled btw and had 1-2 gens left, but they killed 1 of the death hooked survivors and got slapped and weren't able to regress gens anymore. 3 hook stages is more fair since that will counter what is actually heavy tunneling.
I doubt survivors would be very happy if they got penalty of doing gens too fast compared to killers hooks. Imagine getting gens blocked for a minute or 2 minutes because killer needs to catch up.
Survivors do not need basekit tenacity. Take that out and the slugging changes are fine. Is it going to be abused by good survivors and swf..yes but the tenacity makes it worse.
This update will still be survivor sided. The extra pallets will be there on maps that didnt need it. Only maps i can understand is haddonfield and corn maps.
I doubt survivors would be very happy if they got penalty of doing gens too fast compared to killers hooks. Imagine getting gens blocked for a minute or 2 minutes because killer needs to catch up.1: There's no connection between gens and hooks in the proposed version.
2: What sort of compensation buffs would survivors be getting to reward them for spreading out gens?
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@TheMruczek said:
This is the argument I've been seeing whenever someone discusses the new anti-slug and anti-tunnel changes. So the Twins rework that made them Nurse 2.0 was acceptable becouse it hit PTB first, right? The problem is that these ideas should have never hit PTB in the first place, it's literally a waste of resources. The 2 newest systems are flawed on paper and in practice. Both are complex and shallow at the same time.
Anti-tunnel doesn't make tunneling that much harder, just punishes the killer more if they do it. Even with this system the problem is still matchmaking and how good your teammates are at doing gens and not hiding in corner of the map. This system literally KILLS Sadako's and Pig's power and treats every killer like there're S tier and the only map in the game is Coal Tower. That's not the case. Blight with 4 gen slowdown tunneling at 4 gens on Dead Dawg is different from Nemesis tunneling at 2 gens on Ormond. The hooked survivor being removed makes it harder to punish survivor mistakes, secure hook stages or punish healing under the hook and makes it so the survivors can wait to unhook at the last possible moment. The last hooked survivor is protected by this system no matter what they do. The rewards for unique hooks are mediocre for majority of killers. 6 hook panelty is beyond restrictive for anyone that's not a top tier and so on and on.
Anti-slug removes any decision making from survivor. You can both crawl and recover at the same time. The 90sec timer is shared across your teammates so it's not even a hard requirement as people have been saying previously. The system rewards bad survivor positioning, dying in corners, power struggle/background player pallet save situations, punishes any snowballing from killer or killer powers thriving on it: Hag, Oni (wow he got extra 3 blood orbs wowwwww), Knight, Twins, Sadako, Trapper, current Live Myers, Plague. It punishes Endgame builds and makes sabotaging which already got buffed with better Toolboxes and Breakout even stronger.
Many of these problems cannot be fixed by just tweaking the numbers and seeing people saying we were on the verge of greatness with these 2 just blows my mind. Can someone explain how number tweaks save Sadako? Presumably this would get worse with more maps having better pallet count and with better matchmaking in the future.
I am still hoping that one day I won't have to deal with tunneling at 5 gens by a Nurse or Blight but I am not gonna pretend that killer tunneling at 5 gens is so common it happens every match. I am not a fan of these 2 systems and if the only thing we are getting are tweaks and not grand changes then we will have another killer role crisis on our hands.
So the Twins rework that made them Nurse 2.0 was acceptable becouse it hit PTB first, right?1: The Twins example is one that was universally loathed. Survivors, Twins players, they both hated it.
2: People were rightly angry that BHVR said they would give a major update to Twins, presumably spent a lot of time on it, and the end result was 'Sorry, nope.'
Anti-slug removes any decision making from survivor. You can both crawl and recover at the same time.Okay, I don't support crawling and recovering at the same time, but this is over the top as a statement on overall survivor decision making.
The system rewards bad survivor positioning, dying in corners, power struggle/background player pallet save situationsHow are those examples of bad positioning? These seem to be examples of good positioning.
punishes any snowballing from killerIt makes it more difficult, sure. That's different than punishing.
Can someone explain how number tweaks save Sadako?Change: Condemned kills do not trigger the anti-tunnel mechanics.
There, done.
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@Jay_K said:
Here we are again. another update that was met with such criticising from both sides so the devs quite rightly decided to hold fire and have a rethink before just pushing it to live…and what happens??
Oh look a metric ton of posts criticising their decision to pull the changes.
Seriously the community can't complain that these changes are bad then complain when BHVR wants to re-design it slightly and test it at a later date. Like what do you exactly expect from the devs here. These changes are some of the biggest changes the game has seen as it will completely change up how the game is played in theory so it has to be done right not just rushed through.
I want to kind of defend BHVR's decision here as I think they have done the right thing with pulling this update for now and here is why.The rewards for killer were kind of OP so let's break down the rewards for a unique hook.
Base Kit BBQ - When you look at it base kit BBQ was maybe not the best idea. Given that a lot of killer players of mid/low tier players will run BBQ as it is just an all around great information perk it frees up a perk slot. So not only are you giving some aura reading for a unique hook your also giving the full benifit of an additional perk slot.
Base Kit Pop - Same issue as the base kit BBQ. You now have no reason to run pop goes the weasel which again frees up a perk slot if that's a perk you like to run.
10% haste off hook - This I have a mixed opinion on. On one hand some killers its fine on. A little bit of speed to get away from the hook felt nice. But on others it was really broken. They reduced the effect for a handful of killers which is great but they missed some. The main being Clown. Now clown can be 27% faster for 15 seconds after a hook that's insane (And I say that as a clown main its to much)Then you have the downsides to "tunnelling"
The increased gen speed if you kill someone within 6 hooks. In theory that is fine but its very situational.
Kill someone within 6 hooks with 4 or 5 gens left then yeah ok you prob committed to a tunnel you bad bad killer you. But kill someone within 6 hooks with 1 or 2 gens left then its absurd you would be punished for that.
The blocking all gen kicks if you kill someone who was just unhooked again depends on the situation. At the start of the game understandable. you have chosen to ruin the game for one person yeah punish them. You kill someone like that with 1 - 2 gens left its just smart gameplay not an evil move.
Overall the tunnelling changes were not suitable for live servers and if they were to go to live then as a community we would have to trust that the changes to numbers that BHVR make are going to be for the good not the bad which we can't guarantee.
Overall pulling these changes makes sense. BHVR saw the massive amount of feedback slating these changes and decided "yeah let's take a step back, re-asses this and trial it again at a later date" which I think is the correct way to do this as it means that they can re-design AND re test.
I look forward to seeing the changes BHVR makes to the anti tunnel idea and hopefully this will be done ready for the next PTB.The rewards for killer were kind of OP so let's break down the rewards for a unique hook.First, credit to you for looking at where things might be a problem on both sides.
Seriously the community can't complain that these changes are bad then complain when BHVR wants to re-design it slightly and test it at a later date.The community is going to disagree. BHVR should anticipate that and that the voices who are most upset (those opposed earlier, those supporting now) will be the loudest.
Like what do you exactly expect from the devs here.1: Better anticipation of how the community will react to the changes.
2: Better communication, if its a massive PTB that will take at least two tries, tell us. Tell us what you thought worked and what you thought didn't so we can respond to that. Don't just drop it on everyone before you take the weekend off.
3: Having a vision. If they believe radical changes are necessary, go for it. If they don't believe that is necessary, don't spend so much time on changes and keep it simple.
4: At some point, getting it right. From the Ghoul, to the bugs, to the fog vial, to even livestreams, it hasn't been great from BHVR lately. If this wasn't on the heels of all of that, I think people would be much more understanding.
Kill someone within 6 hooks with 4 or 5 gens left then yeah ok you prob committed to a tunnel you bad bad killer you. But kill someone within 6 hooks with 1 or 2 gens left then its absurd you would be punished for that.This is I think one of the most misunderstood elements of the patch where BHVR really should have clarified their goals.
It's not a catch up mechanic. If the killer gets to six hooks before any gens are done, survivors don't get the boost.
It's also not an anti-tunnel mechanic in the sense that it is meant to make it impossible or that they are saying killers who are doing it are breaking some sort of game rule.
It's disincentivizing a certain playstyle for the killer and rewarding another. They have a choice, eliminate before six hooks, survivors get this, or strive to get six hooks before an elimination and they don't (and they gain tools to make the latter more doable). And, like all strategic decisions, its possible the killer pursues one route (the six hooks) but then is faced with a situation where the correct course of action changes.
That's why survivors get it regardless of the killer progress, just as the killer gets their buffs regardless of how the trial is going.
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@jayoshi said:
BHVR has said that they won't buff Trapper more or if they do it might be small tweaks. The reason being new killers pick him and go against new survivors. With the PTB and them being able to code certain killers to not have as long of a base kit BBQ and POP - couldn't they have it so if you only have a certain MMR and going against new survivors you get trapper how he is now and if your MMR gets to a certain point, buffs will be unlocked. He needs some TLC.
To a degree, addons deal with that, though its a horrible way of dealing with it in my opinion.
We also have killers like Wraith who are extremely powerful at the new player level. Should they be nerfed there and buffed later (maybe you believe that, not an accusatory framing)?
Even with the buffs though, you have the issue that that as you get close to and move away from the line other problems emerge. 'Oh, I'm right below the buff line and I'm getting crushed' to 'I'm just past the buff line, I'm destroying survivors again' to 'I'm way past the buff line, he's so incredibly weak'.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997989#Comment_3997989
How is your least likely outcome for a 60% kill rate a 2k? It should be dancing around 2-3ks per match with a few 4ks and 0ks in-between. That's how %s and averages work. And if your claim 1,2,3ks don't exist and it's 4s or 0s your getting more 4s the 0s
That's how %s and averages work.Not really, that's how a bell curve would work. Data can be messy. You can have an equal distribution, an inverse bell curve , or data sets that don't comport to any straight forward model.
And if your claim 1,2,3ks don't exist and it's 4s or 0s your getting more 4s the 0sYes, that's exactly what he is pointing out.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997998#Comment_3997998
I just went on Nightlight and uploaded some matches from random endgame screenshots I found on Google. According to Nightlight, I now have a 100% escape rate.
Do you still really want to stand behind your position that this is a valid data source that we and the devs should use to draw conclusions about game balance with?If you don't trust Nightlight, that's fine.
Then how often does the killer win?
We could look at players who have tracked their own data over long periods of times (and been around the 60% KR) showing 2ks to be the least likely occurrence (possibly behind 3k with survivor escaping completing the gens if you separate that from 3k via hatch).
Or if you don't want that
We could use logic and discuss how the game is a snowball type thus resulting in most extreme outcomes, making a 2k the least likely scenario. If we're having extreme outcomes a 60% kill rates necessitates more 4ks vs 0ks.
Or if you don't want that.
We could say that mathematically we have no idea for sure. It could be anywhere between 80% and 20% (though the 20% requires a loss rate of 0%).
The point being you said that the most common result is 2k. You have no evidence that is true and are just trying to dismiss the evidence people do have. Even if we throw out everything others have, your answer is still incorrect, because the answer would be - 'we have no idea'.
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The messaging certainly isn't helping. It could have been
"We realize we tried to do too much in this patch, with a new killer, a new survivor, and multiple new mechanics. We want to make sure we get this right for all parties. We will be reviewing all the feedback and data and will give an update on our direction on [insert date that is not too crazy far away] and will prepare for a second PTB for the anti-tunnel and anti-slug."
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@XboxPlayur said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996889#Comment_3996889
abandon option doesn’t mean you have to take it… just make the option appear when the gate is opened. If a killer still has a chance, they can continue chasing and trying to secure kills. If all of the survivors are waiting to BM at the exit gate/hopping in and out of a safe locker or over a pallet right next to the gate, the killer can bounce.
Sure, but that isn't how BHVR has had the abandon option. We could give the survivors the abandon option the moment a single survivor dies, however it doesn't mean they have to use it.
The argument has been that because the survivors have an abandon option, killers should have an abandon option in an equivalent scenario, however there is no equivalent scenario.
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@ForumPikmin said:
Actually embarrassing how many players were crying about BHVR hating killer players this past week just for them to annouce they're holding back the anti-tunnel and anti-camp changes 2 DAYS after the ptb.
Like y'all look so goofy right now.I wonder how long it'll be before we get a post along the lines of: 'well the fact that they were even considering it proves how much they hate killer'.
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@bingbongboi90 said:
I am confused. Do the devs dont have the technology to extend the ptb and do some tweaks in the ptb? Or do they really want to push the dlc and Myers update as quickly as possible?
Most of the problems are number tweaks outside sadako and pig situation. And they could have scrapped like 50% of the gen regression nerfs (like seriously kicking eruption in its grave is overkill). Specially when you take in account the limit of regression events on a gen.
With tweaks in the ptb and some additional changes at launch this would have been fine.
Do the devs dont have the technology to extend the ptb and do some tweaks in the ptb?Mostly no.
With the console companies patches/updates need to be submitted to them ahead of release for testing, and these have to be scheduled.
It's really the first few days of the PTB that matter the most. BHVR has to make a decision on what they're doing, make that build, and get to Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo so it can go through their testing process so it can be released. Anything that is found after that, or they don't have time to address, gets added to the hotfix (before we even get a version they've already deep into working on the version after that).
I'm sure their contract has some sort of wiggle room/movability, but broadly they need to make a decision quickly into the PTB about what they want to go with for release.
Now, what they could do, is not work on such a tight schedule, but that would likely mean less frequent releases which isn't going to happen.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997384#Comment_3997384
This is good in theory.
In practice, you also need to be consistent with responses. Because being inconsistent about who you listen to, and when, and how you respond, is a quick way to be accused of bias.
Not to keep just adding onto your posts, but also:
If this was a rare thing, I think we'd all be more forgiving. Everyone makes mistakes after all. But its become a running joke that they will introduce things and either radically change them or remove it entirely once they are actually faced with feedback.
We recently got a promise of better communications and that they'd reevaluate how they do things. Except we again get the same thing with a Friday news drop.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996984#Comment_3996984
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.I'll always remember how there were posts worrying that SWFs would bring four plot twists so they could instantly abandon and lose, and BHVR made sure to say in the patch notes this wouldn't work, but the whole idea of the killer delaying gens and the survivors getting sacrificed was completely missed.
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@ZeroEthics said:
I think Survivors should receive a -25% Gen penalty if they complete 2 Gens before the Killer gets 6 Hooks. Also, if you're too good at Looping, and evade the Killer for too long, the entire team is Broken for the rest of the trial. If the goal is to punish players for completing objectives too fast or too well, then let's punish everyone.
Also, true story, 90% of the Streamers I watched play PTB and abide by the new rules, literally 12 hooking everyone…in the endgame chat, survivors were still complaining about being "tunneled". Bottom line, losing always sucks, and no matter what rules you implement, people are going to complain.
Game has been around for 10 years (soon). Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Evil Dead, VHS, Friday the 13th, none of them can say the same. They're all dead. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. The wheel works. People just complain because the ride gets bumpy.
Also, if you're too good at Looping, and evade the Killer for too long, the entire team is Broken for the rest of the trial.How about if the survivor is too good at looping we give every killer a basekit buff to get faster over the chase and block windows when they are vaulted too many times?
I think Survivors should receive a -25% Gen penalty if they complete 2 Gens before the Killer gets 6 Hooks.Give survivors buffs for spreading out the gens then we have a more accurate comparison.
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@gerolau said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996652#Comment_3996652
typically i only see this brought up when asking for killers to be able to abandon after the gate is opened (which is a very easy to toggle state within the games code) with people going the "you can still win route" because in theory the killer can still secure kills in end game. to be clear i dont side with adding an abandon feature for that, id prefer speeding up endgame timer based on how many survivors are standing in the gates to cuck tbagging weirdos.
this is my same issue with this change. its not being downed multiple times in a few minutes, or before moving a certain distance, or without doing a conspicuous action, this just kicks in if you go down and up twice with no other thought put into it. its literally a "you get to quit because youre not having fun" button like how survivors will dc any ptb match they dont find immediately cozy and funny. its a horrible standard to set and people should play the game they queue up for. if they wanted this to counter killers standing over you and downing you, raise it above 2 or make it only proc if these downs occur twice without any conspicuous actions occuring. the abandon feature is supposed to value players times, forcing the killer to play with bots because of sabo and slug squads is disrespectful of theirs.
typically i only see this brought up when asking for killers to be able to abandon after the gate is opened (which is a very easy to toggle state within the games code)Sure, but that's why I said there are three conditions.
Easy to code: Check
Virtually no chance of a comeback: No, killers securing kills after the gates are opened is not at all unusual
Not easy to circumvent: No check, they can just not open the gate
Let's look at another possibility, all survivors standing at the exit line:
Easy to code: Check
Virtually no chance of a comeback: Check
Not to easy to circumvent: No check, toxic survivors could just move slightly past the line and tbag there.
to be clear i dont side with adding an abandon feature for thatTo be clear, I'd expand the abandon options on both sides. But I don't think the scenario people lay out for killers is anywhere close to one that can be drawn for survivors.
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996652#Comment_3996652
With the new anti-slug thing though... is there even a period where survivors have no chance of a comeback anymore BESIDES during the sacrifice animation?
is there even a period where survivors have no chance of a comeback anymore BESIDES during the sacrifice animation?It narrows the examples, but we're talking virtually no chance, not no chance.
If one survivor is dead and three are slugged, maybe one can get back up before the killer picks them all, and maybe they can reset, and maybe there is enough gen progress that you can finish the gens and open the gates.
It's extremely unlikely (which is a step up from virtually impossible). It's definitely more possible if the changes go live than it was before so we'll see if they reevaluate their stance on when the abandon option should come into play.
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@LordGlint said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9U033EJGRDIZ/1000001901.jpg
Everytime someone suggested killers being able to abandon, it typically gets shot down since they still have a chance to make a comeback. How is this any different?
Everytime someone suggested killers being able to abandon, it typically gets shot down since they still have a chance to make a comeback.It's not quite that.
It is easy to draw a simple, easy for computer code to determine line where the survivors have virtually no chance of a comeback that simultaneously is not easy for a toxic killer to circumvent.
It is very hard to draw a line where the killer has virtually no chance of a comeback that would not simultaneously be very easy for toxic survivors to circumvent.
But on this issue, yes, I don't know why we're getting it.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996571#Comment_3996571
Maybe. I'm not sure that he really understands the game at a higher level, and that's totally fine.
However, he seems to care a lot about the games feeling the same. There's a lot of that as Survivor. Load in, Corrupt. Killer tunnels off of first hook. Early 3v1 and you can't let go on hook anymore. Play out an unwinnable game, repeat until you finally get a decent match.
I think what he is missing is that tunneling is the linchpin. We can't really buff lower tiers until tunneling is gone, since it is obscuring the true stats.
Likewise, it also let's us think about incorporating base gen regression thereby improving perk variety. It again reduces the need for anti tunnel or anti slug on Survivor, again increasing perk variety.
Maybe. I'm not sure that he really understands the game at a higher level, and that's totally fine.First, in his defense reading through his posts, he does talk a lot about how difficult game design can be, how you are weighing a lot of different factors, and an asym adds far more difficulties on top of this.
Broadly though, he very much seems to lean into the camp that the game should not be balanced. It should be in the killer's favor and he spends time on the importance of the killer/power fantasy. This seems to both be a personal preference/desire plus a theory on the queue times.
On this specific issue I think he's making the mistake a lot of people are, that the killer can't tunnel and that survivors can somehow just get up in their face as the killer must get to 6 hooks, which seems an overreaction to the idea of the other side getting a buff at the cost of being down a player.
I think what he is missing is that tunneling is the linchpin.He thinks variety is important and seems to believe that DbD is achieving that. I agree on the importance, agree with you that things really feel very samey.
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@Pulsar said:
There's no way that's him.
This reads like someone posing as him supporting the idea that Killers are somehow not allowed to tunnel or kill anymore
Going to reddit it does seem to be his account. If this is a con its a very long one.
But he does also say in the post and thread
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I would be perfectly happy to be proven wrong here; if people genuinely love the game more and it grows the audience, then that's great! But I have serious doubts that this will happen. If I were really smart, I'd wait to write this until the effects are felt. :D-
Maybe you misinterpreted the tone of the writing. I am not freaking out. I just think this is going to cause a lot of different problems. -
People have mentioned the problems with consoles, but the PTB isn't on Epic Games either. It's not just a PC thing, from everything I've heard Steam is just the best platform to do it on.
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@Nazzzak said:
What are you referring to? I can't see any insults
I think they mean this, but also that its the opposite of what is intended by OP:
This will result in some totems being snuffable through collision, but we are erring on the side of caution to ensure that all totems can be snuffed by the killer until then. Enjoy it while it lasts, Killer Mains!
If I'm reading it right, it looks like they were erring on the side of favoring the killers so that they weren't disadvantaged and then saying have fun. If anything, survivors would have more of a right to be angry that instead of being 'fixed' they were favoring the killer side (which, presuming a fix was impossible in the time frame, would have been the right call between those possibilites).
I wasn't actively playing then so if someone else was an remembers this being treated as an insult I'd be happy to hear the explanation.
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There's never really been an agreed definition of tunneling. Just like we all have general ideas on what gen rush, 3 genning, and camping are, but where the specific lines are blurry.
More importantly, if this was something in end game chat, its just people trolling.
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@YaBoiPHAT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995144#Comment_3995144
Objectively it's not a lose/lose, it's closer to a win/win
Perspective plays a lot into it (objectivity doesn't really work here), but it's certainly not a win/win, since your options are: let the survivor go (literally does not benefit you in the slightest) or kill them and eat a debuff (could be advantageous to your or completely completely ######### you over depending on the amount of gens and survivors remaining). Your post also doesn't address the very simple factor that being debuffed for punishing another players mistake is just not very good design especially for a basekit mechanic.
but it's certainly not a win/win, since your options are: let the survivor go (literally does not benefit you in the slightest) or kill them and eat a debuff (could be advantageous to your or completely completely ######### you over depending on the amount of gens and survivors remaining).Otz's options in this scenario are:
Slug the survivor, taking them out of the match for however long the slug timer is.
Eliminate the survivor and loss the ability to regress gens, but not have a survivor to deal with.
Either way, the killer benefits from the mistake (i.e. they win), not just to the same degree they do currently.
Your post also doesn't address the very simple factor that being debuffed for punishing another players mistake is just not very good designespeciallyfor a basekit mechanic.People hate tunneling. It is one of the most frequent complaints about the game. It's not a good game design that relies upon a guessing game of who has what perks whose effective counter is incredibly boring, especially given how much a part of the game it is.
Whether or not BHVR's approach will address it in a way that is overall better is a subjective guess at the opinions of millions of players around the world. But that there is a massive problem with their game design and they are trying to address it also needs to be taken into consideration.
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When I started reading it I thought the point was this
From a game design perspective, you're not able to assume that any rule fair to one side is fair to the other.Given how many people have been complaining about this being a fairness issue, I thought that was going to be the takeaway.
DbD CAN be great on tension. Being on death hook, hiding out, losing the killer, getting caught when you thought you might escape, can be extremely exciting. The excitement comes from both the risk and the uncertainty.
Getting tunneled doesn't have that same tension, you know what is going to happen and you need a strong team focused attitude to get any sense of purpose out of it. And once a survivor is eliminated the game loses all of its excitement unless you're already close to end game. It's more like 'please let this pointless game end' kind of feeling.
Which brings me to something else he says
DBD matches have phases: 4 Survivors, 3 Survivors, do we try to finish gens or hatch jockey, hatch hunt. That results in large shifts in play style over the course of one match. There are issues with some of these stages, but that they are present adds variety to each match.The way he is talking about hatch hasn't been true in a long time, and hiding out for hatch is loathed. That 3 survivors only works if it hits at the right time, otherwise its pointless and the game loses the "ludonarrative dissonance" he is discussing (I think he is right on the concept of a game needing a feel). If anything, the patch gets us more towards those distinct stages of the match.