crogers271
crogers271
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012276#Comment_4012276
Well I can't see how you reach that conclusion myself to be honest; the proposed unique hook changes as written had a clear and obvious preference for highly mobile killers who are also lethal in chase.
- Pop Goes the Weasel - Favours mobile killers that can make it across the map quickly to reach gens before they pop, and also requires a kick of the gen, which again favours mobile killers who can catch up after the fact.
- BBQ And Chilli - Favours mobile killers who can get across the map in time to reach Survivors in time to capitalise on the auras.
- 10% Haste buff for 15s - Doesn't address any non mobile killers issues, and because haste is proportional to how faster the killer is going, has greater amplified effects on faster and more mobile killers.
However you slice it, mobile killers won out way more on that system over less mobile killers, and it doesn't take a genius to see that mobility is already a massive boon for a killer to have over his immobile counter parts. That is why, barring few exceptions most mobile killers are typically B-S tier and immobile killers are typically D-B tier...
With the changes provided there is a clear and obvious preference for mobility, that leaves any killer who is immobile fundamentally incompatible with the new direction of the game, and this creates a more insidious problem that no one wanted to talk about.... what do these hypothetical buffs to these killers look like? "Trust me bro, we'll fix em later" is not something I can put stock in if the fundamental mechanics of the game are hostile to anything that deviates away from "down fast and sprint across the map to stay viable".
You want to buff low tier killers in this new world order after the tunneling changes are in place? Tell me, how do you buff Trapper? Hag? Pig? Myers? Sadako? Ghost Face? Bubba? Clown? Deathslinger? Trickster? Etc?
Because short of just slapping some kind of high mobile ability on them, you basically have to make all of them super lethal in chase to make up the difference to match up to their A and S tier counterparts... everyone either becomes homogenous... OR you have to make all of them extremely obnoxious in their individual identity, kind of like the Clown changes were...
- Trapper - Massively increase his trap setting speeds and haste boosts so he can lock off tiles and catch up quickly so he can effectively chase new Survivors in areas he isn't already set up in.
- Hag - Needs a rework/overhaul to allow her to establish/maintain map pressure to effectively chase down Survivors... possibly something like her teleport Iri basekit.
- Trickster - Needs to be able to maintain LoS and down much more quickly with his Knives to the point it's unlikely for him to have much counterplay
What about alternative kill condition killers?
- Pig - Massively crease the lethality of RBTs, bring back gates opening trigger traps, lower the timer overall, make headpops far more likely to make her weak mobility and chase still allow her to be actually dangerous and still overcome the tunnel punishments. Or make the RBTs pointless and turn her into discount Chucky.
- Sadako - Massively ramp up the danger of condemn, grant passive video tape Condemn accumulation, etc to allow her to pressure the whole team consistently even through the tunnel changes, or make her condemn toothless and instead ramp up her chase somehow.
Fundamentally these changes shifted the game to the Kaneki / Krasue style of killer design. Highly mobile, little counterplay in chase, cause thats the only thing that would be viable. I dunno about you, that sounds like a bloody awful direction for DBD...
...and your answer to anyone who doesn't already play highly mobile/lethal killers is effectively "screw you, you don't matter, no one likes you anyway, we just wanna face Wesker".
Lots of this seems to have relatively simple solutions and answers.
1: Right now there are D tier killers. There will be D tier killers after anti-tunnel. It's potentially an inevitable portion of the game for a variety of reasons. A new system creates a possibility of change.
2: Other types of change are even worse. All of the pallets just got added are having a substantial impact on those very same killers. They said they want to improve the survivor experience, anti-tunnel with compensation is not nearly as bad as some other possibilities for these killers.
3: While high mobility killers could get more access out of the unique hook benefits, they were also the killers who had the easiest time tunneling.
4: I think the unique hook benefits are underrated for some killers. Things like free info from basekit BBQ are of substantial help to a stealth or trap killer.
5: Even if all of that fails, there's a simple solution. Just as there is tier of S class killers who get less benefits, they can create a new tier for the C-D tier killers who get more benefits. If Trapper is unable to get Pop value as frequently as a faster killer, then give him a stronger Pop. If in fact a group of killers falls behind, they could give them as a group a buff with the system they proposed, something that will never happen under the current system where they go one by one making killer changes.
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@[Deleted User] said:
why are people exaggerating so much? survivor is pretty good this patch with the hotfix nerfs and insane pallet buffs. there are many perks and strats against tunneling and otr was more of a bodyblock meta perk than a real antitunnel perk. use DS if you have it, it's so much more effective as an antitunnel.
survivor is pretty good this patch with the hotfix nerfs and insane pallet buffsBecause people weren't asking for infinite pallets. They were asking for some of the boring parts of the game to be dealt with.
there are many perks and strats against tunnelingGame issues should not be fixed via perks. The game should not come down to whether the survivor getting tunneled happened to guess on the right perk loadout.
As for strats, they suffer from the same issue as being not very engaging. Letting the survivor sit on hook for the max time while everyone sits on gens is not very entertaining.
And that's supposed to be the point of a Quality of Life update. To improve the overall game feel and experience.
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@Mandy said:
Off the Record was always on our list for changes, even without the tunneling solutions tested, we were aware on how the perk was able to be weaponised and felt that 80s Endurance was a pretty long length of time, it's part of why when adding it back, we've halved the duration so it is still strong in a situation where a player is being tunneled but it will be in a healthier position which won't allow it to be weaponised in the same way.
When did weaponize (i.e. trying to use perks) become bad?
Also when did weaponize become part of BHVR's issues with the game because I don't see it in past comments (either spelling)?
Instead this seems to be a killer complaint about game feel where BHVR is now adapting killers' preferred terminology which, coming off an anti-tunnel update that was canned because of killer complaints about feel, is really strange for a QoL update where survivors had been told they were finally getting their most complained about issues looked at.
If the perk was overperforming on the numbers, fine, just tell us that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011729#Comment_4011729
The endurance nerf happened because survivors were weaponizing the perk. That’s the official statement, regardless of your constant insistence that the perk can’t be weaponized.
That's not what people have been saying at all.
Of course you could run over and block the killer with OTR. People have pointed out, correctly, that this is extremely rarely effective and that all the time off of gens in combination with just making a new survivor a target makes this 'weaponization' far blown out of proportion.
As for official statements, it has become extremely clear that despite what they said they were going to focus the QoL updates on, killers have far more of BHVR's attention than survivors.
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@TheBubbaMain2003 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010773#Comment_4010773
They added already much worse thing that Anti Tunneling & Slugging system from PTB. They just made every map having 20-30 Pallets. It does not fix anythinh. It just makes this game even more easier for Survivors. Weaker Killers are punished even more than Anti Tunnel Changes from PTB.
For people reading this. I wanted Anti Tunnel system from PTB. (with some changes of course). It would increase the health of the game.
They just made every map having 20-30 Pallets. It does not fix anythinh.I do think this is one of BHVR's big issues where they try to solve a problem by fixing something else.
It would be like if they "fixed" auto finishing gens with BNPs by adding 60s to gens. It would overall weaken survivors, but do extremely little against the problematic issue that needs fixed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011275#Comment_4011275
That means you would be completely fine if the AFK crows got super boosted, because the AFK crows don't threaten anyone with disconnect penalties and grades losses.
Well, that's an extreme jump.
It's perfectly fine to discuss the balance/feel of certain things. It's possible AFK crows triggered too easily. It's possible that the proposed anti-tunnel measures are too stringent. It's also possible they aren't.
Those are broadly balance and gameplay feel discussions. Such discussions require a lot of nuance and focus upon how frequently might it occur, how much does it impact the game when it occurs, and the always subjective game feel.
You could have that nuanced discussion if you want, or you could paint with a very large brush and avoid it to lump everything together to create a strawman.
But you can't separate out the fact that people who are discussing BHVR's anti-go next systems did so frequently on the threats of actual punishments outside the trial, while everything about anti-tunnel so far has been about things that occur inside the trial.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011196#Comment_4011196
It’s absolutely terrible that the AFK crow update and the Go Next update was absolutely flooded with “survivors should NEVER EVER be punished if they don’t deserve it”…
….and these same people are like “killers should VERY OFTEN be punished if they don’t deserve it”. Because that is what the phase 2 changes did.
The moment BHVR starts threatening killers with disconnect penalties and grade losses, I'm right there with you.
Until that happens, comparing these "punishments" is just absurd.
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Unfortunately the likely answer is never. The give away is just going to be one of the things that is always going to haunt DbD.
Why not increase the security on Epic?If they knew how to detect a certain type of hack, why would they apply it to only a certain system? I don't see how you could increase security on a certain platform in a way that you wouldn't just do for everyone.
Why not make everyone who got DBD for free years ago having to spend at 10$ to play on crossplay?I don't think they could do this anymore than they could deactivate unused accounts. Even if they were willing to accept the blowback from Epic on their customers being treated differently, I doubt it would be easy to do legally. Everyone has the same license and nothing in the EULA really gives them right to split the license into different groups.
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Neither perk is that good and they serve different purposes.
Prove is for either breaking a three gen or knocking out that last gen when a few less seconds makes a huge difference.
Friendly Competition is for teaming up to do a gen early, then splitting to get the next gens done faster.
Also
The fandom wiki is out of date even though it is frequently the top search result. There is another one, at deadbydaylight.wiki.gg that seems to be up to date.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009620#Comment_4009620
Anti-slugging mechanics should only punish problematic slugging. One of the biggest problems with this PTB was that the anti-slugging mechanics were punishing slugging even if it wasn't problematic. It's one of the reasons why the PTB got reverted.
Another reason why the PTB got revert was because the anti-tunnelling mechanics were punishing tunneling even if it wasn't problematic.
That's the entire lesson from this PTB. Anti-tunneling, Anti-slugging, and Anti-camping mechanics, should not punish the killer if the killer wasn't being problematic.
Lots of things wrong that amount to the response being mostly a non-sequitur.
1: If something is 'problematic' it shouldn't be dealt with by a perk. Perks let you do things, such as crawl faster. This can be used to get to a teammate faster, get out of the exit gate, or to get to a pallet. Example: Infinites were problematic, a killer shouldn't need to bring Bamboozle to deal with them, though bringing Bamboozle can take a basekit help (3 window block) and make it better.
2: Nothing about tenacity says its exclusively for anti-slug. It's key purpose seems to be to help survivors get to pallets quicker.
3: The PTB is a different topic, the OP is quite clear about why the revert is being called for.
4:
Anti-tunneling, Anti-slugging, and Anti-camping mechanics- We're talking about perks, not mechanics.5: To explain why the logic is wrong, let's look at killers. Info perks can help you find survivors that are engaged in 'problematic' hiding, but they also help you normally. Gen regression helps you against 'problematic' gen rush, but it also helps you normally. It would be extremely bad for the game to make perks like that only work in situations deemed problematic.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009394#Comment_4009394
Defensive perks should be 100% defensive. If a survivor is slugged for 0.5 seconds, that isn’t problematic slugging, and anti-slugging perks shouldn’t be punishing that.
Crawling under a pallet sounds like a defensive action so not sure what the problem is there.
Additionally, the idea that each perk should fall into a specific category and just do that one thing is very strange as well.
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I remember playing the E.T. game on the Atari. Wasn't the first game I ever played, but remember heading down to my friends basement for what was sure to be an 'amazing' game.
First 'online' PvP game I ever recall playing was Warcraft 1 when I had to first call someone on the phone to get their network info so I could connect to them. I think I played some games on the mid to late 80s Prodigy Internet connection, but didn't have a lot of computer time allotted and I preferred spending it on King's Quest (if my older brain is remembering the names right).
Sounds like @Unequalmitten86 has me beat by a fair bit though.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008120#Comment_4008120
I was absolutely not waiting for killer queues for that long across most of the weekend. There was a mix of killer and survivor bonus along with no bonus. The late evenings definitely are always faster for killers though due to the increase in SWFs.
Also this entire thread is just mostly 5 pages of utterly worthless bickering over nonsense just like every worthless bias thread that gets posted over these topics. The mods really should start just deleting them as spam and for inciting arguments. There is never any constructive discussion, its nothing but bait threads by angry people.
Also this entire thread is just mostly 5 pages of utterly worthless bickering over nonsense just like every worthless bias thread that gets posted over these topics.I find it funny that a huge portion of it might be just having different uses of the word 'easy' as the origin point.
The mods really should start just deleting them as spam and for inciting arguments.I'm really surprised this one is still going.
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@jamally093 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008469#Comment_4008469
Okay better question...how does matchmaking work because clearly it doesn't exist everyone has said it's at high time(aka when a lot of folks are playing) but when is that since your looking at a lot of time zones and 24 hours in a single day. Also everything BHVR does is controversial since everyone goes with what the popular twitch streamers say.
Prime time for the game depends on the region (which I know doesn't help). Some places report the most players late into the evening (7 to 11 PM) while some are afternoon to evening (2 to 6 PM).
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@Milkymalk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006739#Comment_4006739
Deathgarden was so heavily survivor-sided that I played two matches and never touched it again. If, in game with that name, survivors swarm the "killer" and stunlock him after only DAYS of the game being playable, that's a problem.
Let's face it, if you play killer, you expect to be in the power position, and as survivor, your actual survival should be an uphill battle. The game (DBD) is now in a state where it should have been years ago, favoring the killer. The problem is just that instead of tweaking the basics, they make increasingly powerful but boring killers. How many Houndmasters, Vecnas, Draculas or Chuckys have you seen lately? Because they are boring.
And how many Trappers, Hillbillys, Spirits, Onis, Doctors? Because they are weak.
The only old killer that is good AND fun AND fair is Huntress.
Deathgarden was so heavily survivor-sided that I played two matches and never touched it again. If, in game with that name, survivors swarm the "killer" and stunlock him after only DAYS of the game being playable, that's a problem.Deathgarden went through a few different versions so not sure which one you played. I played Bloodharvest and while the Hunter took a few games to get the mechanics down, they were the much stronger role, though the version before that was very different.
Also though, not even the point I was discussing. It wasn't about strength of the roles, it was about the 'kindness of players' and that Deathgarden had a mercy mechanic were killers were expected to let scavs back up instead of killing them in return for more points.
The problem is just that instead of tweaking the basics, they make increasingly powerful but boring killers. How many Houndmasters, Vecnas, Draculas or Chuckys have you seen lately? Because they are boring.And how many Trappers, Hillbillys, Spirits, Onis, Doctors? Because they are weak.The only old killer that is good AND fun AND fair is Huntress.You're combining fun and strong which makes it harder to discuss, but you're saying Billy and Spirt are weak?
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007570#Comment_4007570
Thanks for the offer, but I’m good :). I was mostly trying to make a point to the forum members who so often claim how easy playing killer is but have never provided any evidence that they actually play killer themselves.
but have never provided any evidence that they actually play killer themselves.I've seen people take this challenge from you and others. The issue is that it never gets them anywhere. Part of a standard of asking for evidence is that if its provided the requesting person should either change their views or provide counter evidence of their own.
So you're asking people to take time to record and upload a few matches that inevitably won't actually get them anywhere. Why would they do that?
The never provided evidence goes both ways. I want to see the legendary MMR some killers talk about where they face match after match of nothing but cracked survivors.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007362#Comment_4007362
Only thing you can blame here is the fact he got ban or notification that his behavior is suspicious, if you want blame the huntress that she got 2 hooks on 5 gens and they are on 2 different survivors then you are wrong because getting this with huntress (b-tier killer) means she very good and precise with her hatchets and the fact she went towards safe and sluged him means she must have see some scratch marks leading towards the hook or him directly or the guy she chased whe he went for unhook must have been close to the hook because from what he wrote theres no proof she was proxy camping or hardcore tunneling from the start all I see is chaotic team coordination and killer that played well plus bhvr system feature that isnt workkng as intended.
if you want blame the huntressWho is blaming the Huntress?
bhvr system feature that isnt workkng as intended.That's literally what everyone in the thread is discussing.
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@drmcsleepy410 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006734#Comment_4006734
Relying on a players kindness to not employ tactics easily available to them is atrocious game design.
And I’m sorry to break it to you but that “QOL” update isn’t coming, maybe you get a watered down near useless version by 2027 like the anti camp meter.
Relying on a players kindness to not employ tactics easily available to them is atrocious game design.Agreed, unfortunately its BHVR's philosophy that they can't seem to let go of. Deathgarden was even worse.
And I’m sorry to break it to you but that “QOL” update isn’t coming, maybe you get a watered down near useless version by 2027 like the anti camp meter.Then I'll stick to the special event modes. I don't have anything in the way of expectations at this point and am patient enough to wait until it comes or move on if it doesn't.
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@drmcsleepy410 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005893#Comment_4005893
Well these posts aren’t doing much. You guys take a massive L every update but keep queuing up
Personally I'm waiting for the QoL to actually come through.
But, I find that most killers actually put handicaps on themselves. They don't slug for the 4k or tunnel the first person they find. They play relatively chill and its a good game.
The games though with a killer who uses the broken mechanics BHVR gives them, yeah, that ruins the experience, but some people can over look that.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005714#Comment_4005714
even (especially) good players get over-aggressive when there’s no counter-threat. they play smart because they HAVE TO … because there’s always the threat in the background that the killer could use their full kit the moment a mistake happens. (doesnt mean its always the smartest choice for the killer, but alone that this possibilty exists force the survs to play differently/smarter)..
add more handholding and that pressure disappears. how hard is that to get? at high mmr the meta shifts toward this, which in turn forces killers to get broad buffs just to keep up.
.. big ouuf, this community..
We're getting circular in the logic.
It only works against bad players
Except good players might be aggressive, meaning they would be open to it.
This creates the obvious question, if survivors rushed to unhook were they good aggressive players or bad players?
add more handholding and that pressure disappears. how hard is that to get?How hard is it to get that I'm not even talking about this? I'm not even talking about anti-tunnel suggestions or anything like that, just that your logic is contradictory and changes to what you need it to be at the moment.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006074#Comment_4006074
yeah, idk who they're talking to, you me or crogers
I think its random at this point.
4 years ago I wasn't even playing (I had the chance a few times to play on other people's accounts to give the game a try and didn't care for it then). So my total hours and last 4 years would be the same.
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@WalterBlack said:
I get it, the new release of Krasue has everyone frustrated. Even the most killer-biased people can see that she's in an unhealthy spot for the game. But why, if someone plays a different, much weaker killer, do I still get teabagged and mocked constantly? I'm essentially extending an olive branch by at least opting to not play such a broken killer, and survivors still feel the need to punish me? What's the point of being kind if that kindness is rarely returned?
What's the point of being kind if that kindness is rarely returned?If you believe you are doing the right thing, that's reason enough to do it.
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@BloodBird said:
With all the talk about nerfing tunneling and buffing not tunneling, I think its time DS got reworked to truly focus on its effort to punish tunnelers only.
I find it a common occurrence as someone who rarely tunnels people that I hook someone, go enter a new chase, hook someone else, they get unhooked, I find them like 30 seconds later, down them, and BOOM DS, even though they aren't being tunneled.
Yes they are rehooked between 1 minute of their unhook but if the purpose of DS is to prevent tunneling it shouldn't punish killers who are playing their killer efficiently and skillfully.
I think DS should deactivate if after you've been unhooked, someone new gets hooked.Yes they are rehooked between 1 minute of their unhook but if the purpose of DS is to prevent tunneling it shouldn't punish killers who are playing their killer efficiently and skillfully.1: They stayed off gens for a full minute? Congrats on the survivors throwing I guess.
2: This seems to be going around, but I don't know where the idea came from that because a perk is designed to be anti-tunnel, that must be its one and only use ever. It'd be like saying because Dead Man's Switch is referred to as an anti-gen rush perk, the killer shouldn't get information from it. DS is primarily an anti-tunnel perk, that doesn't mean its the only way it can be used.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005556#Comment_4005556
phew..
there’s no contradiction or inconsistency: a strat can be the strongest and still situational/counterable.. this hard tunnel isn’t an auto-win and can be inefficient depending on the team; strong strat doesn’t mean that it is the best choice in every single situation.
and good teams know a fast 3v1 can secure you the win, so they’ll try to make that first-hook tunnel super inefficient and costy for you.. thats normal play. and good team organize around this on surv side. thats just a normal part of the game.
there’s no contradiction or inconsistency:I'll walk through it.
Here's what you said earlier:
It only works against weak or unwilling-to-learn player … too greedy, too over-aggressive, and not paying attention to macro. against people with some game sense who don’t overextend, the strategy falls apart.Here you are saying that it only works against bad players, even players with "some game sense" beat the strategy.
Meaning that the statement which follows it:
and the moment we balance around players who don’t want to learn or develop macro to counter tunneling, you’d have to buff almost every killer to keep up at higher mmr lobbiesDoesn't make sense. If tunneling only works against "weak or unwilling to learn player", then nerfing it will have no impact on higher MMR.
Everything else in your post is unrelated.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005480#Comment_4005480
another person who doesn’t get it: it heavily depends on the survivors, their setup, the first person u run into, and the playstyle they choose…plus map, rng, and a bit of luck .. where you can actually secure a down. sometimes a single 50/50 decides it. One hit connecting or nah, or whether the survivor reaches a bad zone for you, can flip the whole decision: do you tunnel off first hook or nah.
That doesn't actually answer in any way the logical inconsistency point. It's a non-sequitur.
@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005530#Comment_4005530
…and? It’s mostly newbies/casuals here. Doesn’t change my point. I’ve got my view, they’ve got theirs.
Ad hominems on top of it.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004361#Comment_4004361
Except it has remained the most effective tactic
It only works against weak or unwilling-to-learn player … too greedy, too over-aggressive, and not paying attention to macro. against people with some game sense who don’t overextend, the strategy falls apart.
and the moment we balance around players who don’t want to learn or develop macro to counter tunneling, you’d have to buff almost every killer to keep up at higher mmr lobbies. survivors would like that even less. (not that is evry time needed, but it is the tool to counter over-aggressive and to greedy gameplay - otherwise survivors have a freebie there. What happens then we saw @ the last ptb )
Many would rather go “come to me, killer, I’ll troll” or “I’ll slam the gen right in your face, I don’t care.” Those are survivor misplays; you shouldn’t balance the game around that.
once rotations, some basic gameplay, and teamplay are on point, the strategy falls apart. (soloq need some more info at this point)
but..
just play the game a bit more then 70 hours in +4 years (thats just no time in dbd - and mybe not surv only) and u will learn some counterplay.
( i mean.. something like.. A simple ping wheel would already do wonders for soloQ newbies. Also a hud imrpovement.. cue that roughly color-codes hook distance per teammate .. just highlight the closest and second closest. someting like this)
It only works against weak or unwilling-to-learn player … too greedy, too over-aggressive, and not paying attention to macro. against people with some game sense who don’t overextend, the strategy falls apart.and the moment we balance around players who don’t want to learn or develop macro to counter tunneling, you’d have to buff almost every killer to keep up at higher mmr lobbiesThere's a logical inconsistency here: It argues that tunneling is only effective against bad survivors, but simultaneously that killers at high MMR couldn't function without it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005096#Comment_4005096
Because it's hypocritical for people to say that tunneling is bad, but it's ok for recently unhooked survivors to purposely try to get in chases with the killer.
Because if a recently unhooked survivor purposely tries to bodyblock the killer, and the killer hooks them, a lot of players want the killer to be punished for tunneling. It's ridiculous.
Because it's hypocritical for people to say that tunneling is bad, but it's ok for recently unhooked survivors to purposely try to get in chases with the killer.Not hypocritical because its two different things.
Tunneling is bad because it makes for a boring game (among other reasons depending on the player). The main counter is to just leave the survivor on the hook and slam gens. It also has a lopsided impact and primarily comes down to perk guessing.
If a survivor gets in the killers face it is none of those things. The survivors through their own agency have engaged in an action that creates more variability, more risk/reward mechanics (which, again, while not the only factor that should be considered in game mechanics, having things that create more choices and less obvious 'correct' plays is generally good).
Because if a recently unhooked survivor purposely tries to bodyblock the killer, and the killer hooks them, a lot of players want the killer to be punished for tunneling. It's ridiculous.That was never in the game while old OTR was around
We have no idea what version we might get in the future.
You've gone from a statement about weaponizing being bad to that some players might want something. That has nothing to do with the merits of old OTR.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004797#Comment_4004797
The OTR nerf isn't completely removing the ability for survivors to take hits for each other. It's just taking away the ability to weaponize the perk.
Survivors can still do all those interactions.
It's just taking away the ability to weaponize the perk.Which is bad why?
You keep trying to circle around this issue. Why is it bad that a survivor could use OTR to take a hit?
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@cogsturning said:
If this is what we're considering a good thing now we are in trouble.
Unfortunately, making losing less of a boring experience for survivors has probably been the best thing BHVR has managed on the survivor side recently.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004696#Comment_4004696
"Sure, that happens occasionally, with a ton of risk. If they pull it off, good for them. Having difficult to pull off actions that carry risk/reward are fine."
How am I supposed to interpret the above sentences, if you aren't literally saying that weaponizing OTR is fine because it's difficult to pull off, and has risk/reward?
And I've already said that perks having endurance effects is bad, because recently unhooked survivors should not be encouraged to run towards the killer. That is not the intention of anti-tunnel.
Current OTR is way healthier for the game because it actually helps a recently unhooked survivor to actually escape a chase from a killer, which is what anti-tunnel should be doing. Current OTRE is also much better for scenarios where the killer is tunneling off the hook, because previous OTR could just get the endurance effect removed during the basekit endurance timeframe.
How am I supposed to interpret the above sentences, if you aren't literally saying that weaponizing OTR is fine because it's difficult to pull off, and has risk/reward?I am saying its fine. Nothing in my last post said it wasn't.
I pointed out your use of automatically and acting like this was the only logic that would be used to evaluate game elements was incorrect.
And I've already said that perks having endurance effects is bad, because recently unhooked survivors should not be encouraged to run towards the killer. That is not the intention of anti-tunnel.Why not and when has BHVR said that it wasn't their intention for it to be used like that (not that's its really relevant as a discussion about what is a healthy game and what is creator intent are different discussions)?
Survivors should be able to work together, to take hits for each other, to run toward the killer. Otherwise the game would quickly grow stale from lack of interactions. There's nothing wrong with a perk that allows that and some perks encourage it explicitly.
Current OTR is way healthier for the game because it actually helps a recently unhooked survivor to actually escape a chase from a killer, which is what anti-tunnel should be doing.'which is what anti-tunnel should be doing'
This is viewing things with an absolutist lens. There is no inherent reason a perk can't do one primary thing but also have other possible uses.
It's a self-fulfilling argument, because the perk is referred to as anti-tunnel, it must only be anti-tunnel. That has nothing to do with what is actually a healthy game, its just arguing that perks have to fit perfectly into assigned categories (instead of what phrases like anti-tunnel mean, general descriptors for the perk's primary usage).
Current OTRE is also much better for scenarios where the killer is tunneling off the hook, because previous OTR could just get the endurance effect removed during the basekit endurance timeframe.For the sake of argument, let's presume this is true.
It has nothing to do with the now old version of OTR being a problem. It's shifting the argument. Saying this version might do something better still doesn't explain why the old version was problematic.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004674#Comment_4004674
Having difficult to pull off actions that carry risk/reward are not automatically fine. It's not even that difficult when survivors are using voice comms to coordinate everything.
By that logic, it's completely fine for killers to slug all 4 survivors, because it involves a lot of skill and risk.
Having difficult to pull off actions that carry risk/reward are not automatically fine.Who said 'automatically'? You ignore everything up to that point and then add a word in on top of it.
It's not even that difficult when survivors are using voice comms to coordinate everything.It's easy to say something is easy, but I actually laid out everything that would have to happen and I'm probably missing a few additional things that could derail it.
In this thread you never give a reason why OTR to body block is actually a problem. You just say weaponizing as if somehow the survivors doing things is actively bad.
By that logic, it's completely fine for killers to slug all 4 survivors, because it involves a lot of skill and risk.If you only think about one thing at a time, sure. But there are obvious other issues come up with all 4 survivors getting slugged that make for a bad game.
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@BbQz said:
I wonder why they didn't keep all the killer buffs from hooking people as well
Lol.
There was a part of me that actually thought that was going to happen.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004655#Comment_4004655
Sooooo, you know how endurance works with healthy survivors, right?
Unless the healthy survivor gets hit with an one-shot attack like Hillbilly's saw, the survivor gets injured, keeps the endurance effect, and is NOT in the deep wounds status effect.
Let's look at the times here.
Survivor is unhooked and killer is in chase with another survivor. Survivor needs to get healed, run over to the chase, and take two hits (not to mention if the killer chooses to tunnel this survivor, something the survivors have no foreknowledge of, the whole idea is moot).
If the chase ends before the survivor can reach it, then the survivors would have been better off doing gens.
If the survivor just eats two hits directly in a row, not much time was gained.
If the killer has an insta down, or the ability to get around the block, the survivors would have been better off on gens.
If more than 80 seconds go by, then the OTR was irrelevant and the survivors would have been better off on gens.
So in the window where the survivor can heal, interrupt a chase to take a hit, continue the chase, then take a second hit before the timer elapses, all while giving up time they could be on gens, and now are a target for the killer as they have no other protections and would be, in a best case scenario, going onto death hook.
Sure, that happens occasionally, with a ton of risk. If they pull it off, good for them. Having difficult to pull off actions that carry risk/reward are fine. The issue with tunneling is that it doesn't have any of the above level of skill or risk.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I can understand your frustration here. Now, you mention not being interested in the version that was on the PTB. Is there something specific that you would find useful to help with tunneling and slugging?
Tunneling
Right now if the killer wants to tunnel they can and it becomes a game of whether the survivors guessed right or not on their perks.
Changes to require more gamesense are good ideas, such as hiding the unhook notification. It creates more strategy on both sides instead of the killer just having automatic information.
Making the survivor harder to find by hiding scratch marks, blood, and grunts of pain are also good ideas.
Things like seeing the killer aura aren't necessary and take away an important game element.
The partial etherealness just causes problems. It needs to either be all or nothing. Either make the survivor unable to be hit at all, but also not able to uses items and pallets, or get rid of the idea.
At the extreme end this doesn't deal with the worst case scenario - a killer standing right outside the AFC range who will target one survivor even if it means throwing the game. That results in an unfun experience for all survivors even if they win. However, I don't think BHVR should try and fix everything in one go (one of the problems with the patch was doing way too much), make improvements and then reevaluate.
Slugging
It's just more than necessary. Increased crawling speed, good, having to not hold the button, good, but not the crawl and heal at the same time.
I don't think basekit unbreakable is necessary, but the time is extreme enough that I don't think it helps or hurts the game that much.
25% bonus / gen block
I think these shouldn't be thought of as primarily anti-tunnel, but balancing out the game experience to deal with the more extreme lop sides events and to offset the killer buffs.
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@brewingtea said:
Scott Jund or Otz or someone said, in a recent video, that it's not really viable alone. Too hard to hit the skillchecks consistently.
I knew I couldn't hit them, but it's nice to know that even top-level players can't do it, for the most part.
@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004431#Comment_4004431
No offense but otz and scott are not top-level players. Ask the comp survivors for advice not people who while they play a lot are nowhere near the level of the likes of idk knightlight, xeno or the like.
It's not really a 'skill issue'. If you have the reflexes you can do it, if not then you can't.
I believe most of the comp community is in their teens / 20s which is when a person's reflexes are still incredibly sharp. They start to drift after that. I know Hens has joked about being too old for comp, and he's in his mid 30s I believe.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003867#Comment_4003867
- That‘s why I suggest this vote. If they‘d do something like that, they‘d have to do something and couldn‘t ignore some perks anymore like they did for years.
- True, but the question would be whether or not they are able to keep the identity and what people like about something and still make it better for the majority.
Secondary effects aren‘t massive buffs. Like look at calm spirit.
7. Well perks with a under 2-3% usage rate aren‘t used that much. So if they buff them and get used more it wouldn‘t be such a bad thing to shake up the meta. Behavior could also only let us vote for perks with less than 1% usage rate if that‘s too high.
That‘s why I suggest this vote. If they‘d do something like that, they‘d have to do something and couldn‘t ignore some perks anymore like they did for years.
Ideas like this come up every now and then. There is something that someone/the community wants BHVR to do, but BHVR doesn't want to.
Coming up with an idea that involves more steps to achieve that goal isn't going to work. If BHVR doesn't want to take the obvious route, they aren't going to take one that creates more possible problems.
2:
Secondary effects aren‘t massive buffs. Like look at calm spirit.When a perk is designed around it, sure. But that's different than perks that have a purpose and would have a secondary effect added on to it.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003841#Comment_4003841
- After that logic there shouldn’t be any bad perks left in the game, because there are perks that are bad for years already.
- I will just say it would be the community who would decide and if behavior doesn‘t want to buff the main effect they can always add a second effect.
- No idea.
- True, but I think buffing self care by 5% wouldn‘t hurt.
- That‘s a question for the devs.
- It should be something that makes a difference, not Borken, but people should be more encouraged to pick it.
- Both I guess.
1: You miss the point. It's no secret that some perks are bad. BHVR doesn't address them. Either the issue is they don't know how or they don't think it fits into their schedule. A voting system is just an inferior way of addressing that.
2: Majority doesn't inherently lead to correct decisions. It's like the idea of reworking Twins. Not that many people like playing Twins, but some really do. Something doesn't have to be liked by the majority to create a better game.
Also, secondary effects are massive buffs. Like I struggle to see how you could add a secondary effect to StB that wouldn't make the perk obviously overpowered or so pointless as to just be annoying to have.
5: Kind of circles back to my first point.
7: But if people can behave in both of those manners, it defeats the goal of a voting system. If people primarily vote to buff perks they are already using we just get far more of a divide between which perks are good and bad.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003716#Comment_4003716
Using chatGPT in a argument about AI I can only clap.
If @Ryuhi piece was chatGPT, its over and we've lost and the computers are coming.
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I'll take the unpopular side and say no. I see a few problems that emerge.
1: We already have a voting system that is much more accurate, what perks people actually choose. If perk X is being run one in a 1,000 games its pretty clear people don't like it.
2: Some perks have low pick rates but accomplish a niche purpose. Like Mettle of Man doesn't need a buff, its just going for a body blocking build is something not a lot of people are going to do.
3: If a perk has a low pick rate, but BHVR's data indicates it is strong, and the people choose to buff it, what does BHVR do? Just go ahead with the vote and put something broken in the game?
4: Which perks are good or not is subjective. One of the things that makes DbD enjoyable is there are lots of different ways to play and disagreements on what are actually effective builds. The most obvious example of this is Self Care, which is considered throwing in US/Europe and is an S Tier perk on the Asian servers.
5: If BHVR is willing to consider a perk should be buffed, why not just do it? If BHVR had a list of ten perks they thought worthy of buffs, just PTB the buffs to all ten.
6: Community blowback. How much of a buff are we talking? If we have a whole voting system and StB wins and exposed drops by 2 seconds, its going to feel pretty underwhelming.
7: You have a clear divide in interests. Do people vote to buff perks they don't use but would like to, but buff perks they already use and want to be stronger?
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003361#Comment_4003361
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they tried doing that and got inconsistent results. The gameplay is too varied to reliably use it, but not doing so is incredibly punishing as well.
It's not so much about the variety of factors, its that MMR systems have to be closer to zero sum mechanics. One goes up, the other goes down in roughly equal amounts. Mechanics that are linked to rewarding play are more impacted by play time than skill.
You have other factors, gameability and difficulty of implementation in an accurate manner that are contributing problems, but MMR's function off win/loss conditions and comparing existing MMR.
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Going with outrage.
If it was data you want to run the test for longer to see how players adapt.
Also they've mentioned before they understand the PTB has data issues do to the limited player pool and they are heavily looking at feedback.
Also if we look at what they said:
We have heard you clearly that the current implementation of the Tunneling Reduction and Slugging Reduction Systems players have been testing this week feels too punishing for Killers.We get 'feels too punishing'.
@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003242#Comment_4003242
It's certainly possible.
I'm surprised they have not issued a clear statement.
I'm surprised they have not issued a clear statement.I'm not. At this point I'm starting to think BHVR's vagueness and drip approach to announcements is a marketing strategy.
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Not to defend BHVR's implementation of MMR, but a single game, or even five games, is not going to have that big of an impact on MMR. It takes a lot more games than that to move the needle, especially if the MMR system is pulling you up meaning the losses are expected thus MMR wouldn't really move that much.
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@runningguy said:
The question is how do you balance a game where the killer has multiple modes with a range of difficulties depending on the killer and survivors have 2 modes (solo and swf)?
Everyone knows soloq is awful due to the many survivors that refuse to touch gens or troll or simply going for adept or any number of reasons. And everyone knows swf provides tactical advantages that solo will never be able to obtain, such as coms, all being on the same page with the same common goal and perk synergy. With survivor role being drastically split into essentially hard mode (solo) and easy mode (swf), how do you balance killer v survivor?
Should we balance for killer v swf or solo? low tier killers v swf or high tier killers v solo? should survivors be able to win a team game without playing as a team? should people be forced to play with friends in order to stand a chance? These are the questions that people should be asking. i believe if we answer these questions and get true balance with solo and swf it will make it far easier to balance killer v survivor as a whole. This balance will then have a knock on effect with things that killers feel they need to do to compete such as tunneling, slugging, camping or even using top tier killers.
So far i have seen perks used as bandaids for the symptoms of the problem without addressing the root cause. these perks effect ALL survivors and ALL killers regardless of solo, swf or particular killer. Same with the recent slugging/tunneling test. Its a blanket bandaid that tars all killers and all survivors (ragardless of what tier killer it is or if its solo or swf) with the same brush. This way of thinking will not solve the root cause and will only lead to shifting the unbalanced problem areas else where.
For example, anti tunneling and slugging game mechanics that applies across the board targets the killers that are op and need the nerf but also targets the low tier killers and cripples them even more than they already are. Likewise with survivor, buff gen speeds or increase pallet count helps solo survivors which could do with the help but also buffs swf which really doesnt need more help. It helps people compete against high tier killers while making low tier killers with no speed or anti loop powers worse than they already are.
Personally, i think everyone should stand a chance at winning and having fun regardless of killer or solo or swf. ideally SWF should be nerfed somehow. The reason i say this is because they use 3rd party apps such as discord to communicate. If dbd was built around coms then they would have been available from the start for everyone. However, there is no way to ensure people dont use coms or dont talk while they play in the same room together so i dont see that happening. Which leaves only 1 option, buff soloq without buffing swf. we can add voice chat or perk visibility but you can never force survivors to play as a team, if someone wants to do totems for a challenge instead of the gen right next to them there is no way to force them to get on the same page as the rest of team.
Its a complex issue, and one i truly believe will never be solved due to the nature of the game. This is why solo and swf need to be played differently just like each killer needs to be played differently. what might work for nurse might not work for pig. what might work for swf might not work for solo. swf makes use of the team work, solo should make use of the solo nature, think more selfishly than swf would. It seems to work for me.
The question is how do you balance a game where the killer has multiple modes with a range of difficulties depending on the killer and survivors have 2 modes (solo and swf)?There are a few questions that actually come before the how.
1: How important is balance? BHVR's philosophy, with the 60/40 goal, is that it is a secondary goal to things like game feel.
2: How important is variety? If they introduced a new killer with a new mechanic that was a lot of fun for both sides, would the balance be an issue? It's easy to imagine that if they were wildly out of whack either way they'd quickly become unfun, but if a killer is a little weak or a little strong, but fun and engaging, I think that is a more important consideration.
3: Are we balancing short term or long term? I think this is a point that is missed in these topics. Most games (symmetrical) have an easier time achieving balance - they give both sides the same choice of heroes / weapons, they mirror the map, both sides get a chance at the objective. DbD's goal is long term, maybe you get a map that favors the other side, and maybe the perk selection goes against you, so the individual trial isn't balanced, but in the long run these RNG factors balance out.
4: Should we reward more challenging play? This is mostly a killer issue, but comes up with some survivor perks. If a killer has a higher skill difficulty to learn and play, should they ultimately be stronger than a killer who is quick and easy to pick up (Wraith vs Blight)?
5: Are we talking balance under the assumption MMR works, or are we talking balance when people of differing skill levels hit each other?
6: Is there a particular MMR level that should be the focus or are we discussing the best balance for all MMR groups?
7: Is kill rate a good balance metric or should it be something else?
Different players are going to have different opinions on those questions so you are always going to get varied answers on the how because people have different goals in mind.
And everyone knows swf provides tactical advantagesOutside of a the extreme ends of the spectrum, I think SWFs are a bit of a red herring to the discussion.
1: If MMR works, MMR balances this out in the long run. For simplicity imagine MMR was on a scale of 1 to 10. If a group of players are a 5 on the skill level, but playing together takes them up to a 6, in time they'll hit killers who are also at the 6 skill level.
2: Having varied players can be more of a disadvantage than the coms. If people are playing with their friends, and they are a 7, two 5s, and a 3, the 3 is going to bring the other players down more than if they were given soloq survivors of their same skill level.
For example, anti tunneling and slugging game mechanics that applies across the board targets the killers that are op and need the nerf but also targets the low tier killers and cripples them even more than they already are.This doesn't take into account that changes will continue to be made to the game post any type of anti-tunnel / anti-slug. If it ends up that a certain killer was way too dependent on tunneling, once that is taken away and their kill rates drop, they can be buffed to make up for it.
If dbd was built around coms then they would have been available from the start for everyone.I'm a 100% soloq player, but BHVR has been very clear they are okay with coms and that they always planned for SWFs to be in the game, they just didn't have time before their initial release.
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@jordykellyburt said:
ive played 20 matches of survivor today. My team escaped ONE. I see your statistics have the killer winning 60 percent of the time. What are you guys thinking. Why not make it 50 50. Killer perks are absolutely ridiculous compared to survivor perks. The only thing survivors have is pallets and windows and so many killers (knight, legion, nurse and more) aren’t even affected by them. It’s like you designed a game for people to lose.
And then your matchmaking. Ive been playing for a couple months only and i go against people with 10x as many hours. In short what is your thought process? To try to piss people off?
It's intentionally unbalanced. I think they've gone overboard on that.
Starting off survivor is absolutely brutal for many players and it would be nice if BHVR did something about it.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002508#Comment_4002508
where is the proof of these statistics? (from bhvr themselves) and "normal" pvp games arent made asym by nature killer HAS to be the power roll otherwise its kkfos/f13th all over again
where is the proof of these statistics? (from bhvr themselves)1: If your standard is BHVR, then kill rate = win rate.
2: Where is the proof from BHVR that it isn't correct? The burden of proof goes both ways. Those pointing out that 2ks are rare have at least some evidence to back them up.
"normal" pvp games arent made asym by nature killer HAS to be the power roll otherwise its kkfos/f13th all over againDifferent argument. The game is unbalanced, if you want to argue it should be unbalanced, and how unbalanced, then you should make that argument instead of the incorrect math argument.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I'm waiting for the phase 2 changes to be announced, before playing killer again.
Why should I put time and effort into playing killer, if it's likely that the phase 2 changes are going to make the entire killer game role feel miserable?
Because this PTB was so absolutely miserable for killers, that I'm finding it difficult to believe the next phase 2 PTB will actually be fair for killers.
Why should I put time and effort into playing killer, if it's likely that the phase 2 changes are going to make the entire killer game role feel miserable?You know its not a job right? It's not an investment that you get some return from in the end.
If you enjoy the game, play it.
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As a survivor: I feel like they slow the game down. I prefer when DbD is a fast paced rush so not a huge fan. Balance wise I don't think the current versions are problematic.
As a killer: I feel like they are a win harder perk. If I was going to win, I now dominate the survivors, but if I'm struggling then I'm wishing I had chase perks on.
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@Gibberish said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001467#Comment_4001467
What I'm saying is that the criticisms experienced players are already informed by player's experience with the game; and that some people act like that doesnt matter at all and that any potential changes exist in a opaque bubble that you cannot possibly predict.
Not only that, you're serious underselling how much of a mess this PTB was. Like half those ideas are so bad on paper that they shouldn't have even went to testing; the fact that anyone thought they were a good idea at any point is baffling. Just like how in my original post, stuff like "Sable Ward walks through walls" or "115 Nurse" is so absurd that it's not even worth testing, so was some of the things tested in the PTB, and I'm being a bit hyperbolic, yes, but my core point remains.I remember when experienced players talked about how AFC and 3 genning would completely destroy the game.
This doesn't even get into how every new perk idea is met by some experienced player explaining how broken it will be even when it rarely ends up being true.
We're getting into a broken clock is right twice a day territory. There is always doomsaying about DbD changes. Inevitably some of that doomsaying BHVR will end up agreeing with after things are actually tested. That doesn't mean people aren't silly for making predictions based on limited info, just that if you do it enough times inevitably you'll be correct at least once.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001421#Comment_4001421
You don't get it. You refuse the core concept of an asymetrical pvp game. If you don't like it anyway, why do you play it to beginn with?
The powerrole needs to be powerful, because he goes up against 4. Which should make it impossible for the team to bully him. That's not a code of conduct, it is the core of the gamedesign.
Tunneling or not is not 100% in control of the killer. Should I have to play around it on purpose? What if I stumble over the same survivor all the time? Why do I have to do the micromanagement of whom did I hunt last? Possibly with same character with the same clothing? Why should that micromanagement pushed on me? Being killer is already stressful enough. And it would be easy to get punished for something that happend by accident.
The "spirit of survivors" is not by nature altruistic. Every survivor tries to escape for themselves. Altruism is an option -call it a strategy, if you think it's more beneficial to you, if you help-, not mandatory. See? You has a human player, can deciede to do it, or not. The same choice should be given to another human player, that just so happens to play the killer.
I can try to rephrase it for you multiple times, but I do not WANT to understand it anyway. Most likely, you already have, but talk back anyway, to punch you will through.
You don't get it. You refuse the core concept of an asymetrical pvp game.What I do get is you've changed your argument.
It's no longer about that only survivors have a rulebook, because that's pretty clearly been shown to be incorrect with multiple examples, its about what the game design ought to be.
You're just calling your arguments 'game design' and others 'code of conduct'.
And if you want to discuss game design, go ahead, but its a lot more nuanced of a discussion than arguing one side of the player base has a set of expectations that the other side does not.
Tunneling or not is not 100% in control of the killer. Should I have to play around it on purpose?You still can tunnel under the proposed system. It actually gets rid of the arguments for a code of conduct. If you think it is worth the consequences, go ahead and tunnel.
Why should that micromanagement pushed on me?Because that's how game design works. The devs put a series of pros and cons on various actions.
The "spirit of survivors" is not by nature altruistic.Not even what I was discussing.
If you wish to discuss things like spirit then we need to get into how much one killer effectively ignoring three survivors to pursue one target destroys the spirit of the game. There's no tension, no excitement, with a tunnel, just apathy.
I can try to rephrase it for you multiple times, but I do not WANT to understand it anyway. Most likely, you already have, but talk back anyway, to punch you will through.No, I get it. You have a vision of what you want the game to be. Other people have a different vision. As I said above, you could get into the nuances, the merits and downsides of differing ideas, but its a lot easier to just blast the other side as doing something that your side would never do.
It's easier, its just not true.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001270#Comment_4001270
This is very true. This is why I ask people what the survivor equivalent of tunneling and slugging to remove killer agency is and I never get a satisfactory answer. It'll be something lame, like gen rushing.
I also, to some extent, follow the killer rulebook for survivors. I don't use flashlights. I rarely sabo. I don't bodyblock offensively or obnoxiously try to take chase unless it's a desperate measure to save someone else, and I know the potential consequences I'm bringing down on myself if I do.
For awhile, some people tried to get the phrase 'gen tunneling' going. Like "killers will stop tunneling survivors when survivors stop tunneling gens'.
Fortunately that argument died off in large part when people pointed out that hyper focusing on a gen is a horrible strategy for survivors.