crogers271
crogers271
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@YaBoiPHAT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994735#Comment_3994735
People aren't fond of the "Strategic depth" in this case, because you're not deciding how to push your advantage, you're deciding which foot you'd rather shoot yourself in. Whether you technically have more choices to make or not, people are never gonna be happy with being forced into a lose/lose situation, especially one caused by the other player making a mistake.
What people are happy with or not is subjective and BHVR will have to make a judgement on community feelings.
Objectively it's not a lose/lose (which isn't surprising being the term gets used incorrectly a lot), it's closer to a win/win though we're more talking about trade offs.
The survivor made a mistake, the other two survivors would have been much better off if she had run earlier to take more chase time.
Otz now has to play 2 survivors instead of 3. The survivors are in a worse position. They aren't completely and totally a lost cause because of the changes.
It's the difference between the current 'survivors made a mistake, they should lose the game' and 'survivors made a mistake, they should be more likely to lose the game'.
@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995021#Comment_3995021
I love how survivors are always losing and dead in these clips, if you're trying to prove survivors are op you're doing a really poor job…
of course Otz hates it, his job is literally doing killer winstreaks on Dbd
I love how survivors are always losing and dead in these clips, if you're trying to prove survivors are op you're doing a really poor job…It's one of my favorite parts of the forum.
'Survivors are broken, look at this trial, they almost won!'
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@dgbug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994041#Comment_3994041
I'm stating an opinion (I do not BELIEVE the BHVR devs play killer) and asking for proof otherwise. I am not saying that without a doubt, BHVR doesn't play killer. I'm saying that I'm assuming so until I see other evidence.
Here you go
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941807#Comment_3941807
Yes I am, I've played this game since day 1 back in 2016 and I think it's in the healthiest position its ever been in balance wise - and I've played both sides of the game for many many years now. There's always going to be some issues with the game, same as any game, and we're addressing those this year with the slugging / tunneling / "go next" things that we have planned.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
They are upset because tunneling someone out and making the game a 3v1 instead of a 4v1 is the easiest way to play Killer. It is not even a strategic decision (since I have seen some people claim that they are taking strategies away), because tunneling someone out is always the best choice, since you basically secure your win at this point.
The changes now discourage this and encourage going for different Survivors. Overall, it will be fine, but people like to panic and being loud instead of trying to adapt.
It is not even a strategic decision (since I have seen some people claim that they are taking strategies away), because tunneling someone out is always the best choice, since you basically secure your win at this point.It's interesting because what's actually happening is encouraging strategic depth.
Killers can now be faced with an actual question on what to do and who to chase. Pursue the death hook target and give the gen boosts, pursue the death target but leave them slugged, or go after a different target.
Instead of - see death hook and non-death hook, chase death hook.
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How about: a stated kill rate target of 60 to 65%?
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@Wiccamanplays said:
Sometimes tunnelling happens because the Killer plays very aggressively and hounds someone out from the start. Other times it is because individual Survivors or the Survivor team as a whole makes mistakes– not healing promptly, not taking chase, not completing side objectives, bad positioning etc– and facilitates tunnelling. There's also the kind of tunnelling where partway through the game the Killer recognises that their win condition hinges on getting a given Survivor out of the Trial. The first kind sucks, and I think is the correct target for system changes. However, with the new PTB rules, if a Survivor is tunnelled out in any kind of context, the Killer is potentially penalised as a result. Doing your job well and feeling like you're being punished for it feels bad. Add the fact that the buffs for non-consecutive hooking feel more like a compensation than a reward, and are of limited use to many Killers, and it's not a surprise that many players who play Killer are upset at the proposed changes.
Whether or not this is balanced is less of an issue (because the answer is complex and subject to so many variables) so much as whether or not this is fair. If a Survivor led a Killer on a really long chase, and then as a result all gens got blocked for a 20 seconds because they hadn't hooked anyone yet, that would feel bad to the Survivors, not because of balance but because of fairness. The principal motivation behind 'competitive' games is that excellence should be rewarded and mistakes punished. Ultimately this is going to come down to whether or not BHVR and the DBD community see the game as a competitive game or not. If it's competitive, then I don't think the anti-tunnelling changes should go through as is, though there's still scope for trying to make not tunnelling a more viable strategy for Killers who struggle to do otherwise, possibly by changing more perks to disable when a Survivor is sacrificed. If it's not competitive, then implementing mulligans and 'play nice' rules like the anti-tunnelling system makes more sense, but there will also need to be an assessment of a lot of very strong Survivor perks and items that, when combined with the new changes, provide comparable shortcuts to tunnelling.Whether or not this is balanced is less of an issue (because the answer is complex and subject to so many variables) so much as whether or not this isfair.Okay, let's focus on fairness.
If a Survivor led a Killer on a really long chase, and then as a result all gens got blocked for a 20 seconds because they hadn't hooked anyone yet, that would feel bad to the Survivors, not because of balance but because of fairness.What if as the chase got longer the killer gained more and more speed to ensure they catch the survivor?
Ultimately this is going to come down to whether or not BHVR and the DBD community see the game as a competitive game or not.BHVR shoot for a 60% KR because they want the game to feel killer sided. They are not, and never have, gone for a competitively fair game.
but there will also need to be an assessment of a lot of very strong Survivor perks and items that, when combined with the new changes, provide comparable shortcuts to tunnelling.This isn't new.
You can get in a four person SWF with four syringes if you want (or all toolboxes)
You can play Nurse or Blight.
The game has always allowed players to be sweaty, whether its good or not is not really related to the new patch, its a different discussion.
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@jamally093 said:
So I might have a small brain or something but I don't know why people are upset about it. The idea is just saying "hey don't be sweaty and try to spread hooks around" I have played both killer and survivor and I will say I have tunneled once or twice when I was having a bad day. But I don't understand why people are upset about it when basically it's just learn your not gonna get a 4k all the time and a 3k is still technically a win 1k or 0 is a lose and 2 is a tie. So I might be missing something in all this but I really don't understand why so many people are upset with it.
Its always tough to gauge how the player base actually feel based on the forum posts. 10 angry players can make a lot of noise.
But every major change gets accompanied by a wailing and gnashing of teeth. People are still on treating the changes as if tunneling is now an auto loss.
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@Skeleton23 said:
/When will there be a Anti Gen Rushing/: because Gen Speeds are gonna be a problem later on and sense Tunneling is no longer a option anymore will there be a way to Address to make the Killer not need to do this strategy:
/Will There Be a Anti Bully/Sabotaging Squads/: Sense Slugging will be much harder to and that means Bully Squads and Sabo Squads will be much harder to face. Will there anything to help not rely on Slugging to Address these type of players:
/6 hook question/: if you have 5 hooks and you hook and kill someone which would be ur 6th hook will it still activate the penalties even though you have 6 hooks in total:
When will there be a Anti Gen Rushing- Killer now reduces 25% with a gen kick after a unique hook./Will There Be a Anti Bully/Sabotaging Squads/- Are you worried about gen rush, or are you worried about survivors getting off gens to protect each other?Because as much as we get 'survivors only want killers to play in one way' the alternative is 'nerf every survivor option'.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993612#Comment_3993612
Exactly, moderation is needed but sadly PTB was just dropped like this on us with such big changes all we got was dev notes but not on specific each change as it should be done.
And then radio silence after it when people are planning on protesting which is serious
Kind of late as the discussion continues after this, but:
I suspect BHVR marketing is generally pleased with the reaction. The whole point of doing teasers before the full reveal is to get community interested, to stir the passions. It's not like they just forgot to include the numbers, its very intentional when information is dribbled out to keep people interested.
This will probably be one of the most watched streams they've ever had.
The reaction is also what would be expected as we've been there before (sweats will sweat harder, people who quit will now quit even more, whatever way people believe BHVR is biased they still probably believe that). Community feedback can be critical for ideas, and if there is ever an actual consensus it should cause a reaction, but lots of it is just sound and fury signifying nothing. If the patch is good, people will play more, if its not, people will play less. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak and this weekend will be a fun story to throw in with the other forum meltdowns.
@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993638#Comment_3993638
Im not really liked on the forums lol
But its fine
I have you as one of the top three coffees who are actively posting 😋
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@Raccoon said:
The forums have been ablaze with users expressing their approval of the new system while others express their disdain.
All will be revealed in the Discord presentation and brought to life in the PTB!
Who will be 'right?'
Who will 'eat Crow?'
Will things work as planned?
Will the new killer be fun?
What new perks will arrive?
Regardless of your personal thoughts and/or biases, there is SO MUCH TO LOOK FORWARD TO!
I am glad we can all experience these glorious times!
Feel free to post whatever you're feeling/hoping about the PTB, here.
There are NO BAD/WRONG REPLIES - this trash can is for fun only >:3
Who will be 'right?'Who will 'eat Crow?'I think we're just getting started. Highly doubt there will be a consensus coming out of the announcement.
That's not even getting into the joy that will be the entire PTB as people argue about what they will nerf/buff.
Will the new killer be fun?It's so weird so much is coming at the same time. People will start talking about their hopes/fears for the patch and sometimes I'm like 'oh, yeah, there's the whole thing with Myers too'.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993068#Comment_3993068
What? No. You completely missed my point and then went off the rails. Your analogy was bad. Let's just leave it at that, as I don't have the spoons to try to better explain why.
Let's just leave it at that, as I don't have the spoons to try to better explain why.That's fine, you can leave it if you want, but I never mind another go of explaining
Your analogy was bad.I'm not making an analogy, so it being good or bad is kind of impossible. I'm pointing out a factual issue. So in terms of missing points if you were treating something as an analogy you were already missing the point.
The post I was responding to that you then replied to claimed that the idea of increasing difficulty or having consequences occur for completing objectives was "insane" (this is not a unique argument on the forums at the moment). I provided a few different examples of survivor things that currently exist in the game (there's killer examples as well) that do just this (and again, this is not unique, I and others have pointed this out on multiple threads).
You focused on the infinite windows example dropping the others. I pointing out two obvious things.
1: This is shifting the argument (now this being clearer because you thought I was making an analogy, which I never was)
2: To compare to what BHVR is currently proposing you'd also have to give the survivor buffs otherwise you aren't actually comparing alike things.
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@brewingtea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993125#Comment_3993125
I can wait 6 days for 2v8 to finish, show you the long queue times still there, and prove you wrong. In the meantime, I'll go ahead and take your word (without proof) that the queue times are lower this time than last. I'm willing to do that because it doesn't support your argument at all. Yes, the queue times fluctuate, but by your own admission they have been terrible for months now.
To add on to what you're saying:
2v8 will come back. It looks like roughly 20% of the time 2v8 will be up, and they've talked about in the long run it being a permanent thing. People shouldn't just exclude 2v8 because its going to be an ongoing issue.
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@TheGoon224 said:
Slugging reduction: for the most part, I think this is fine. I do feel like if 90 seconds isn’t enough you can maybe bump that up to like 120 seconds. But overall, if you are really going to slug a survivor to go after another person real quick that’s nearby. That’s probably gonna take like 40 to 50 seconds. I do feel like killers like twins or singularity this could definitely be a bit of a problem for them so maybe bumping up the anti-slug to 120 seconds would probably be the safest option.
Tunneling reduction: honestly after reading through the early PTB notes several times over and I think most of the changes are good. There’s just a few problems I can see with this.
- First I want to talk about Gen regression and blocking being removed once you tunnel some one out I think it’s overkill keep in mind that survivors will also get a repair speed bonus when this happens. so no slow down on top of a repair speed boost would naturally mean that for pressure we would have to slug but we can’t do that anymore so this just leaves the killer in a situation where they can’t do anything. I’m not gonna lie the best solution for this is just to that downside entirely, but just keep the repair speed bonus so that the killer isn’t in a situation where there is nothing that they can do.
- Second the section will be a much longer, but I want to talk about the effects that you get for a unique hook the percentage increase of kicking a generator and the base kit BBQ are good effects there’s no doubt about that but I’m more curious about the haste effect. I’m bringing this up in particular because this is going to hit killers very differently, depending on which one it is. Let’s say the haste is like 5% on killers hillbilly, blight, ghoul, and literally any killer that has a teleport ability this is going to be strong on them however, there is the minority of killers that aren’t going to really benefit from this more specifically the more passive/setup killers like Trapper, Hag, Skull Merchant, and Ōnryo. These killers in particular aren’t going to really care about a 5% speed boost, like at all because more likely than not as soon as they get a hook, they’re most likely just going to keep what they were already doing Whether it be keeping up their web of traps or keeping up pressure with condemn in Ōnryo’s case. Giving a haste bonus like this does not benefit these killers in the slightest and because of this, it’s not like they’re gonna make great use of the percentage increase to breaking a generator either because their doesn’t prioritize that sort of thing so it’ll most likely just end up going to waste on killers like these. But yeah, in short, this speed boost and the gen damage increase, even if it’s getting Nerf for the stronger more Chase incentive killers, in the end it’s gonna benefit them a lot more than it is going to benefit the much more passive set-up killers.
- Third is the massive delay for the unhook notification I’m not gonna say that it should be removed, but I don’t think it should be the way it is. Reducing the delay to 5 or 4 seconds would still give the survivors plenty of time to go somewhere and reset while also not leaving the killer completely in the dark on information.
- fourth is mainly about how this is going to affects newer players and that is the fact that after this all goes through the killer is going to be under a lot info after they hook their first survivor having a way for new players to understand the information overload that newer killers will be under would help make the game a lot more friendly to those newer players.
I think that’s kind of all. I wanted to say about the tunneling reduction specifically so that let’s get to the last thing I want to talk about.
The Myers Rework: OK I don’t know if this is a controversial opinion but I honestly like the Myers rework but I genuinely do think that I think could be tweaked a bit.
- Stalker mode I feel like the range should definitely be increased because the thing is Myers even with the undetectable is very noticeable dude how tall he is and how loud his breathing is making stealthy plays like this very difficult.
- Remove Myers ability to break pallets with the slaughtering strike would not only make his gameplay feel a lot less brain dead but also, I just don’t think it’s in character for Myers to destroy a pallet with his knife unless the knife is made of like tungsten or something.
But yeah, I think that’s kind of everything. I wanted to talk about sorry if this felt like I was just kind of vomiting words, but that’s just because I’m worried for this update because this has potential to be a really good update for DBD at the same time could easily kill the game if not handled properly. But I guess we’ll see how all this plays out during the PTB on Tuesday, see ya ✌️
Reducing the delay to 5 or 4 seconds would still give the survivors plenty of time to go somewhere and reset while also not leaving the killer completely in the dark on information.I expected the things people would say about the slug mechanic and generally agree with them, and I was expecting people to have issues with the anti-tunnel mechanic though I'd disagree, but when I saw the hiding unhooks my reaction was: 'obviously, why wasn't that done before?'
Basically, why should the killer have this information? It's powerful, obviously, but it takes out a giant element of game sense just to say 'here be two survivors' or 'here were two survivors recently'.
First I want to talk about Gen regression and blocking being removed once you tunnel some one out I think it’s overkill keep in mind that survivors will also get a repair speed bonus when this happens.I think they should just tie the penalties together and stagger them on when the first elimination occurs, but to trigger both a killer was probably hard tunneling. Sure maybe the killer hooks survivor A, then B, then C three times in a row, but it would be an unusual game for it to occur like that (and I'm not worried about survivor C suicide rushing the killer, losing a survivor is always going to be devastating).
Giving a haste bonus like this does not benefit these killers in the slightest and because of thisYes, the haste benefit will have an unequal impact, but we're going a bit far saying 'no benefit'. What killer doesn't need to move away from the hook and the faster they do it, the better?
But yeah, in short, this speed boost and the gen damage increase, even if it’s getting Nerf for the stronger more Chase incentive killers, in the end it’s gonna benefit them a lot more than it is going to benefit the much more passive set-up killers.So just reiterate before I go farther that the benefits being unequal will happen. I think that's inevitable, though I'm not expecting any massive change in the KRs.
But I feel like a set up killer benefits more from the free information a basekit BBQ is given than is being let on. You can get a general, or perhaps specific, idea of where all the survivors are, thus letting you know where to prioritize your setup.
fourth is mainly about how this is going to affects newer players and that is the fact that after this all goes through the killer is going to be under a lot info after they hook their first survivorIn terms of all the things new players have to experience, which is a problem, I don't worry about this.
BHVR is giving the mechanics to play without running into the downsides. You get a hook, you see where the other survivors are, you go chase one.
- First I want to talk about Gen regression and blocking being removed once you tunnel some one out I think it’s overkill keep in mind that survivors will also get a repair speed bonus when this happens. so no slow down on top of a repair speed boost would naturally mean that for pressure we would have to slug but we can’t do that anymore so this just leaves the killer in a situation where they can’t do anything. I’m not gonna lie the best solution for this is just to that downside entirely, but just keep the repair speed bonus so that the killer isn’t in a situation where there is nothing that they can do.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
I have been thinking, about the Anti-Tunneling, specifically on the gen regression and block prevention.
Isn't this also semi targeting those matches when the Suvivor gives up immediately? Like you find them and they stop moving or stay under the hooks?
Because a killer trying to prevent the regression/block prevention will not over look those individuals?
Which helps those individuals who want to continue playing a good match, while potentially forcing the killer to play, or eat the dc?
I think they say that they want to improve the overall 3v1 situation.
DEV NOTE: It’s no secret that tunneling can be seen as an efficient way to play for Killers. While this can be true, it’s also true that the results of this can be frustrating for Survivors, leading to Trials ending too quickly for some, while leaving others to fend for themselves in a match that is now much more difficult.That key part at the end is the phrase much too difficult. I think they recognize that a 3v1 isn't a healthy game and are looking to broadly address it.
Basically, yes, you're right, and I don't think BHVR is being that coy about it.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993072#Comment_3993072
So abuse is when something is used against BHVR's intentions, but also when they want something in but you don't think its good for the game.
Your definition of abuse seems to equate to 'personally dislike'.
Abuse is when a mechanic meant to create a fairer experience is exploitable for gaining an unfair advantage. I named examples when anti-tunnel perks were used for more agressive play. I have also plenty of examples for sabo squad whose only mission is to deny hooks and make the trial miserable. The planned changes allow for more exploits, especially for Killers that no longer bring BHVR money (i.e. forgotten and ignored) and lack the mobility to keep with gen repair speed (and players who don't grind DbD like they get paid for it).
I personally dislike that BHVR ignores the root problem and tries to appease one side only, if anything. But my thoughts on BHVR's competence aren't pleasant in general.
Abuse is when a mechanic meant to create a fairer experience is exploitable for gaining an unfair advantage.So you are giving two conditions to the use of abuse:
Created for a fairer experience - this gets back to my point on BHVR's intent
Unfair advantage - so we're in subjective territory basically meaning too strong
I named examples when anti-tunnel perks were used for more agressive play.What is unfair about aggressive play?
The planned changes allow for more exploits, especially for Killers that no longer bring BHVR moneyI like a good conspiracy theory into their motives, but people are talking about playing only Nurse and Blight. Are these hug cash cows for BHVR at this point?
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992864#Comment_3992864
1: Based on what didn't they calculate that? They literally put a tracker into the game called 'protection hit', they're well aware that survivors protect each other.
The list of BHVR's problems with long-term decision-making is quite long. Remind me, when Mathieu Cote said that flashlighrs weren't a problem, what was he basing his statement on?
2: If they viewed it as abuse they could have changed it. It's no secret that it can occur.
BHVR didn't see the Streetwise bug as an exploit — and recommended playing another game to players, who complained about having bad experience. Does it sound like competence?
So when talking about abuse on the survivor side we take the most extreme example (a coordinated SWF), but when talking about the killer side we take the most extreme example in the other direction (an M1 killer without mobility).A coordinated SWF isn't an extreme example, it's very common (voice comms make a lot of difference), and M1 killers aren't rare as well — not all people want to master Nurse.
So abuse is when something is used against BHVR's intentions, but also when they want something in but you don't think its good for the game.
Your definition of abuse seems to equate to 'personally dislike'.
BHVR didn't see the Streetwise bug as an exploitThey didn't see that it merited the kill switch. They were wrong and changed course.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991727#Comment_3991727
The infinite thing is absolutely not the same. To go with your analogy, how about instead of removing the infinities like they did, instead after three full loops all the doors and windows were blocked? Sure, the killer made a bad play, but now we need a game mechanic to help out the killer. That's what this anti-tunnel is doing.
Also, while I am a P100 Pig main on killer side, I am also a P65 Jill Valentine Main on Survivor. When someone in a match is tunneled, it's usually me. So I get how frustrating being tunneled is. I am still absolutely against these changes.The infinite thing is absolutely not the same. To go with your analogy, how about instead of removing the infinities like they did, instead after three full loops all the doors and windows were blocked1: So we're shifting the argument. It's no longer 'it's insane to punish people for doing the objective, that would never to happen to survivors', its 'this type of punishment for survivors doing the objective was fine, but the proposed issue is too severe'.
Which means we're back in boring balance discussion territory and everyone can put their pitchforks away.
2: To actually make the example comparable you'd need to add:
And as compensation when survivors leave a loop instead of three vaulting it they gain a haste boost.
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@BreadLord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992852#Comment_3992852
that survivor could have been dead and its a 3v1, but now they get up and its another person on a gen… yes thats punishing
I didn't realize when they added 10 seconds to gens they were punishing survivors. I just thought it was a nerf.
Survivors should be really mad they are getting punished every time the killer gets a unique hook.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992818#Comment_3992818
You're comparing apples and oranges.
DS and other anti-tunnel was designed to prevent Killers from tunneling, but the devs didn't calculate that survivors with DS are going to bodyblock and throw themselves at the Killer to engage them into chase and prevent them from going after other survivors.
An anti-camp mechanic and the built-in BT now make sure that the Killer can't really defend a strong hook and there is plenty of room for survivors to dive in for the rescue. If it's an M1 killer without any mobility, these strong hooks won't do much.
but the devs didn't calculate that survivors with DS are going to bodyblock and throw themselves at the KillerTwo points:
1: Based on what didn't they calculate that? They literally put a tracker into the game called 'protection hit', they're well aware that survivors protect each other.
2: If they viewed it as abuse they could have changed it. It's no secret that it can occur.
If it's an M1 killer without any mobility, these strong hooks won't do much.So when talking about abuse on the survivor side we take the most extreme example (a coordinated SWF), but when talking about the killer side we take the most extreme example in the other direction (an M1 killer without mobility).
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992675#Comment_3992675
Do you remember how long queues were during the MFT meta?
Yeah, they were pretty normal. Survivors had a wait around peak hours, killers had the wait most other times. I remember it pretty well because I'm one of those who plays whichever side has the BP bonus and I got to play both sides during that period.
You've got to go back to pre-6.1 for any types of queues on the survivor like killers have experienced more recently.
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One of my favorite parts of the forum is how in one thread everyone can talk about how the MMR is non-existent, and in another everyone talks about how they are in high MMR and they get matched with cracked survivors/killers every single trial.
For the OP though: its probably 2v8. In addition to throwing off the queue timers for killers, lots of players who maybe just play a few games a week are in 2v8. That people who play every day have either already burned out on 2v8 or just love 1v4 for so much they don't want to change. This means there aren't as many survivors to go around, so eventually it finds you whoever it can.
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@OmegaXII said:
So Killer has 1 hook, with only 2 gens left. How are you going to comeback from this? You can't kill anyone before 6 hooks, otherwise your opponent gets buff.
So basically the first chase determines the whole match?
You can't kill anyone before 6 hooks, otherwise your opponent gets buff.I don't understand how many people are making the connection between 'can't' and 'opponent gets a buff'.
Anyway
If you are tunneling, your chances have gone done in comparison to what they currently are, but no one knows how much yet
If the survivors leave the person hanging and then you get a second hook, your chances have gone up compared to what they currently are because you just got a free buff, but no one knows how much yet
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992696#Comment_3992696
Like they abuse DS and other anti-tunneling perks? Like they abuse anti-slugging perks and sabo builds?
If the Killer can't hook and and the same Survivor because it will make crazy gen repair speed even faster, guess what kind of Survivor will be in the Killer's way 90% of the time, wasting their time?
If Survivors don't have to worry about picking slugged Survivors up anymore, guess how many sabo squads are going to deny Killers hooks just to mess with them?
These changes assume that people are decent. But multiplayer games consist of particularly despicable beings on an ego trip, so these changes will be opening a brand new can of worms.
Like they abuse DS and other anti-tunneling perks? Like they abuse anti-slugging perks and sabo builds?Question about abuse.
To help killers deal with the unhookable builds, BHVR added in extra hooks. Some of those are in strong and easy to defend positions.
When a killer hooks someone on them who doesn't have a wiggle off build, are they abusing the hooks? Because they are using them for an unintended purpose after all.
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@vol4r said:
I know, title isn't what most people want.
I love newest developer update.
It's definitely about time - we need to adress those survivior's pain points (slugging and tunneling).
It will finally be the time, that we won't need to be using meta perks like unbreakable, decisive strike etc.
We will finally be able to use worse perks, be more creative with our builds.Cheap tactics were overused because they created scenario which was impossible for surviviors to win a game, kept us unmotivated, hopeless.
I haven't been tunneling or slugging as a killer so I am only getting buffs - BBQ and better kicks. I am happy about those.
This isn't competitive game and killers really treat it this way.
They don't really understand that most people just come into a game with a wish of having fun, chill a little bit after day full of work, school.Community should trust developers more. Give them time!
"Worse" killers definitely will have worse kill rates - but this is a good thing!
We need to give dev team time to adjust those weaker killers. Only good things will come out of it.Let them collect data after implementing those "anti" systems.
BHVR, please do not listen to negative killer's feedback.
Those people don't seem to care about opposite side experience.
They just wanna keep winning games for free.
We need those system's and your ideas are good.Yes and no.
The thing I think they have to commit to is the idea. They've said this is coming, they've said that this is the biggest issue currently facing the game, given the surveys and data they have they are likely right on it.
Execution though is always a question, whether it's done in a way that both accomplishes their goal and doesn't break something else is something they should get a lot of feedback on.
Hopefully, they go into this not just listening to the loudest voices but actually try and get a sense of how it will impact the overall player base.
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@BOFH said:
Alternate universe Patch 9.2 PTB notes:
Survivors are now blocked from repairing the current generator once they have accumulated 25% progress on generators.
They must accumulate 25% repair progress on different generators before that generator becomes unblocked.
Actually it would be something like:
If survivors finish a gen before they get 50% on four different gens, the killer will receive a 20% kick buff.
As compensation for this, anytime the survivors get a unique gen to 25%, for 30 seconds they receive 5% haste and 10% gen speed, they also see the killer's aura for 3 seconds.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992643#Comment_3992643
They can, and they will. I’ll still play the way I play under the new rules. And I hope a lot of killers follow — swaps to top killers included. Plenty feel the same: never had an issue with tunneling before, but with these changes? We adapt. We min-max the meta. Expect more Nurse/Blight.
Here's the thing:
None of us care how you play.
We've gone through these threats before. People will quit and/or just play S tiers. It never happens. I run into chill killers, I run into sweaty killers, whatever killer has just been released / updated gets the most play, and I play killer and have no concerns about playing under the new rules.
You're allowed to play however you want. But we've been hearing the threats for years from people who were playing sweaty that they'd somehow play more sweaty and the community, broadly, never follows them. We're over the cries of 'wolf' and hopefully BHVR is to.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992423#Comment_3992423
it would make far more sense to wait for some actual numbers.
Wait for numbers”…
But is it really just about numbers? Even if BHVR handed killers some kind of bigger advantage to win matches (which won’t happen, because the so-called buffs killers get are a joke compared to what strong groups squeeze out of their “goodies”)… Even then, the killer gets punished simply for not sitting back and watching a survivor team play ULTRA bad and make awful mistakes, without reacting to it. Survivors get to walk away from situations completely for free, where they absolutely should’ve faced consequences for their garbage playstyle – just because the killer “isn’t supposed to.”So what now, the killer isn’t allowed to actually be a killer? Or to be smart? The logic behind this is insane. Survivors keep getting more tools to play badly without consequence, while killers get punished for reacting smartly. That’s wild. No other PvP game works like this – you don’t give bad players a boost and a bunch of cotton candy while shackling the ones who are actually playing well.
The logic behind this is insane.Why?
As has been covered multiple times, this isn't unique. Survivors get penalized by doing their objective (gen penalties, reduced number of gens, windows blocking, etc.) This is not just a normal thing for this game, but its a normal element of many games to give pros and cons to various strategies to the approach of an objective. DbD's an asym which people never seem to get.
Survivors would have just totally taken away the ability to tunnel. Despite the claims of people about BHVR, they seem very much to want to keep it an element of the game.
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@Coffee2Go said:
This idea comes from user @Slan
So basically the basekit pain resonance, it would save time a lot of time actually than just having basekit pop that requires you to hit a gen.
Yes it removes ability to choose which gen which to regress and will probably make certain people mad but this is just more in flow and more natural synergized than basekit pop.
Its better for it to be automated regress on the most progressed gens than non mobility killers having to go manually there after BBQ proc.
So basically the basekit pain resonance, it would save time a lot of time actually than just having basekit pop that requires you to hit a gen.Without numbers to compare, its impossible to say, and thus impossible to get into a balance discussion.
Would a basekit PR of 5% be stronger than a basekit Pop of 10%.
Also, what are the survivors getting in this scenario? How much is the gen speed boost?
Then you have killer issues. Teleporting killers would benefit more from a stronger pop they can use more frequently, slower killers would probably like the guarantee of a PR.
First you would need a goal of what balance you are trying to achieve (i.e. are we just balancing out the survivor benefits, do we want the killer stronger, or do we want the survivor stronger post change, just not as much), then you need specific numbers, even with numbers it differs from killer to killer.
That's all you would need to get into to have thoughts basekit PR vs. Pop.
Though from a design goal perspective, which is a little simpler, the goal of the basekit changes is to be anti-tunnel, thus giving a buff that encourages killers to move away from the hook makes more sense.
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@XboxPlayur said:
thank you survivor mains for the pretentious answers, but no you haven’t been “getting punished” for doing the objective. Sure they implemented a slowdown because if you could stack up and do a gen in 20 seconds the game wouldn’t be fun for anybody. But luckily for you I can provide an exact reciprocation of these rules and you still tell me if it sounds fun?
1. You can only work on 1 gen for 33% progression, then you have to go to another and you get minuscule buffs that won’t really help all that much.2. If you work on the same gen to 66% straight no buffs, but that gen will have backward skill checks/ no notification skill checks that make it harder to go.
3. If at any point in the match you complete the last ten that was worked on, you can no longer heal your teammates and the killer gains a haste boost.
Just spread gens guys, it’s not that hard and it’s actually very toxic of you to just sit there and work on one gen in the killers face.
But in all honesty I’m not interested in the opinion of people who never play killer so you actually have no understanding of what this is going to do for the game. But since you so obviously hate the game, you’re in luck, because these changes will fix the killer queue times by making killers leave the game in droves. Punishing one side because the other feels bad that they can’t just make bad/greedy plays over and over like their favorite twitch streamer without getting punished is not the way to “fix” a game. Especially when the side being punished is, by design of the game, supposed to be the “power role™️”. I think incentivizing killer to not tunnel with slight buffs, and enabling survivors to escape these situations easier would’ve been fine. But the dramatic punishment of killers for situations that can arise naturally in the game without tunneling is way too much, it over complicates the game making new killers less likely to have any amount of fun, and turns enables the survivors to be more greedy/toxic/bad with no repercussions.
TLDR: survivors are not being punished for completing their objective. no you’re not getting tunneled, you’re just bad at the game. Stop playing like your favorite streamer and learn to play smart. Most responders in this thread clearly have no idea how killer actually plays and I envy them. The incentivization to not tunnel and more survivor tunnel avoidance is fine, the punishments are too harsh and broad sweeping for non-tunneling situations. If these changes go out as is, the killer queue will be much shorter (yippy!), and BHVR will support other businesses by making the new Halloween game more popular no matter how bad it is. GLHV survivors! remember all your posts about how toxic killers are when there are none left.
thank you survivor mains for the pretentious answers, but no you haven’t been “getting punished” for doing the objective. Sure they implemented a slowdown because if you could stack up and do a gen in 20 seconds the game wouldn’t be fun for anybody.You're factually wrong. Survivors get punished for doing their objectives, people have provided multiple examples in this and other threads.
You think those examples are good and that what BHVR will be instituting is bad.
And you can discuss that, though it would make far more sense to wait for some actual numbers. But a lot of people don't want to get into the nuance of the balance of say a 10% basekit Pop vs the potential of a 15% gen increase in certain situations.
Because that's a boring and complex discussion. People want to rage (I get it, its fun, and I think BHVR is thrilled when they get 'passion' like this). They want to act like they are being singled out and BHVR is playing favorites. They aren't. They are trying to improve the game. They've done it many times in the past and, sometimes, they've screwed it up.
And people can, and will, discuss all of that. During the PTB, after the PTB, for years afterwards. But it won't be nearly as exciting as getting to claim that you're being single out and victimized.
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His question.
Quote: Question: What repair speed bonus would offset a dead survivor?
Its a discussion forum. He answered your question. If you just want to troll let us know so we can stop engaging.
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@SadakoSlay said:
This is not one aspect feeling worse this is an entire characters power now feeling bad to use since you get punished for it. The fact they can just change Sadako or make the punishment not happen with condemned and yet they choose not too shows to me that they are not thinking these changes through and are just doing this on a whim. Killers hould not be punished for using their power well, if they are what's the point? People made an uproar for Billy, yet nothing for Sadako or Pig. It's not good designs if one or two characters get punished way more with changes that 90% of the cast. Like I'm sorry but if you think it's good designs that Sadko's should just ignore fully condemned survivors not to instantly lose I don't know what to tell you. Survivors can now just ignore condemned until she has 6 hookstates, making her whole kit useless. No slwodown sicne no one will use the tapes, no condemned because using this ability too early will make you lose and no pressure since no one will fear her since she has no chase ability.
Like I'm sorry but if you think it's good designs that Sadko's should just ignore fully condemned survivors not to instantly lose I don't know what to tell you.Where are people getting instantly lose from?
This is like when anti-3 genning came out and people where like 'what if it triggers when I wasn't trying to 3 gen?" Well, in those rare instances, you can't regress the gen, but at a minimum you got 40% regression from 8 kicks, where you would have got 20% before, but then, just like now, people are glossing over the broad buffs they got to focus in on the rare instances that it could happen where you are still getting a lot of value.
Or to look at it from a survivor comparison: when BHVR, rightly, decided that unhookable builds where a problem, they put in hooks in more hooks in the places survivors were using. Even if you weren't running an unhookable build, killers now had more hooks, some frequently in really strong positions, to use against them. But I don't remember any compensation being given out.
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@SadakoSlay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992024#Comment_3992024
I agree, but it will still feel bad for the sadako player to get punished for using her power well.
Why?
Or more specifically, how can any balance change ever be made that wouldn't meet this?
Every balance change makes certain actions more or less strong than they were and if you are on the less strong its natural to think 'if only it was still the old way'. Using her power well still moves the Sadako closer to victory. Just not as much as it currently does (presuming they don't just modify it so killer moris are exempt, in which case she now comes with a bunch of buffs when she does hook).
Or to put it another way: why won't it feel bad for survivors when killers use their new buffs from things that were already happening to win matches?
It will feel bad. But balance changes always come with that.
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Some perks will need to be adjusted, but some of these are definitely doom posting. Survivors are going to kill themselves with slippery meat and give the killer a 3v1? People will waste 90 seconds on the ground with plot twist? Death Hook survivors are now invulnerable? An Invocation will be actually usable?
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991989#Comment_3991989
Oh, yeah. Being unable to regress gens anymore is totally a winnable situation… for Nurse. For Dredge? It depends on how many gens are left. If it's at 4 gens, he can probably still pull out the win. 1 or 2? He's probably getting two kills still.
If it's at 4 gens, he can probably still pull out the win. 1 or 2? He's probably getting two kills still.Okay? If a killer gets a kill with 1 or 2 gens remaining and they trigger the penalties, what's the issue? If they are triggering both penalties they are probably on just 3 hooks. Should the norm be that a killer who only gets 3 hooks by the time survivors complete 4 gens still end up winning the match? Like you're conceding he's still going to get to a draw.
Anyway, I already noted we are on a tangent. You're welcome to the last word in this thread.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991982#Comment_3991982
And Dredge will still get curb stomped by survivors with more than 2 brain cells because he doesn't get downs fast enough, so the entire point is moot. Unless that gen regression is something like 35%, it's absolutely nothing compared to getting a survivor out early.
it's absolutely nothing compared to getting a survivor out early.Which he could still do, and if he gets any unique hooks along the way, he is stronger. Because your claim that the tunnel is disallowed or an insta loss is a gross exaggeration.
Anyway, sorry to @Inosennatoki - I didn't expect this to go off in such a tangent and potentially derail your thread.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991969#Comment_3991969
Lol. I'm sorry, but the killers that need these "buffs" the most won't even be able to use them. Trapper isn't going to go traipsing across the map to get an extra 5-10% on a gen kick. Deathslinger isn't suddenly going to get map pressure because of a 5% haste for ten seconds. Hag can't capitalize on knowing that there's a survivor on the other side of the map. And BHVR isn't dumb. They know this.
If they really wanted to compensate killers, they'd have made it like PR instead of Pop. They know that the low tier killers can't actually use any of these "buffs," but S tiers can… which is why they made it so those S tiers don't get as big of a buff. These "buffs" are designed to placate killers while not actually giving them any compensation. They exist so people like you can do exactly what you're doing now.
We're just changing the argument now, right? You said BHVR hadn't said something, I showed you when they did, and we're just bouncing to different topics?
Do Trappers never kick gens? Deathslinger doesn't ever need to cover ground? Hag knowing where the survivors are won't help where she leaves traps?
Different killers will get different levels of benefits from the change. That's inevitable. It's one of the reasons base kit buffs to all killers are rarely done.
But let's not be so narrow in who we're discussing. What about some other non S-tier killers? How about Dredge? Is he not going to be improved knowing where the survivors are and being able to get more out of a kick when he teleports to a gen? Any speedy or teleporting killer, Wraith, Freddy, etc. is getting a useful boost. Insta down and stalking killers get info or survivors have to sacrifice gen progress. Range killers know where they need to focus.
You're ignoring a sizable portion of the killer roster in your analysis.
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@Deme said:
The recent anti-tunneling and slugging changes seem to punish killers, but I believe they could be a hidden opportunity for a healthier game.
By clearly defining what they don't want (slugging/tunneling), BHVR has essentially forced themselves to address the root cause: some killers need those tactics to win. If the changes are effective, it will blatantly expose which killers are underpowered without them.
This is good because it creates a clear mandate for BHVR to buff and rework those struggling killers. This could lead to a game where every killer is both fun to play and strong enough to win without resorting to unfun strategies. Sure, perk balances and new SWF tactics will need attention, but that's always the case.
The potential is there. Now it's on BHVR to seize this chance to finally buff weaker killers and move the game in a better direction for everyone.
By clearly defining what they don't want (slugging/tunneling), BHVR has essentially forced themselves to address theI think this part is correct. Balancing a game where some people play "fair" with limitations to give a challenge, and others take the easiest possible route, is a hard way to hold a game together.
If they do the numbers right (which is a big ask) the whole idea of 'fair' play should go out the window. Want to tunnel? Here are the pro/cons. Want to spread pressure? Here are the pro/cons.
root cause: some killersneedthose tactics to win.Part of the issue here, and I think this is coming up in a lot of posts, is that the 'to win' is frequently 'to win every match'. That's not a realistic standard and whenever BHVR posts their numbers for how killers are doing even those that are listed at lower tiers are doing fine.
The other issue is the differing skill floors/ceilings that some killers have. Some killers are monsters at low MMR because of how easy they are to pick up, its again not realistic that such a killer would also be elite at higher MMRs.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991957#Comment_3991957
"These are not balancing changes."
Proceeds to make the biggest balance change in the history of DBD.
I'm sorry, but I don't think half an addon here and there is going to make up for, "You're no longer allowed to punish survivor misplays. If a survivor that you've already hooked makes a bad play, you must ignore them and go after someone else. If you don't, you'll automatically lose the game."
I'm sorry, but I don't think half an addon here and there is going to make up forStrange, I missed in the patch notes were you aren't allowed to do things or that something will cause an automatic loss.
Proceeds to make the biggest balance change in the history of DBD.If that was their goal they wouldn't be giving killers buffs at the same time. If BHVR actually did what survivors wanted, we'd just be getting anti-tunnel. But they are very clearly trying to give things to both sides not to disrupt the balance.
But you've already reached your conclusion despite all of the evidence you are lacking.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991939#Comment_3991939
No, they haven't. They've said the opposite. Mandy said about a month ago that if killers start losing games, they'll eventually find themselves at their "appropriate" mmr after losing enough times in a row.
That's a comment about individual players, not their target kill rates.
Anyway, here you go:
@Mandy said:
I'll jump in here right away to try to reassure you, if any feature that's implemented changes kill rates drastically and in a negative manner (as you know we aim for approx 60% kill rate), we will make adjustments as necessary. These are QoL features, so focusing on game health and enjoyment, these are not balancing changes as such.
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888137#Comment_3888137
which is why I said we'd make adjustments as necessary, if it does impact kill rates etc negatively
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@sinkra said:
It's not uncommon for killer mains to have an average kill rate of 70%. Some even with 80%. The concept of "win streaks" should never be possible in a competitive pvp game with mmr. The game just became an ego boost for killer mains where survivors were just supposed to be punching bags for a killer's enjoyment. Survivors no longer wanted to play and were leaving the game in droves. The devs are finally taking action to level the playing field, and now killers will finally see what their true skill level is. In the long run these changes will make the game more enjoyable for everyone though, except streamers who can't boast about 1k win streaks anymore.
I agree on the kill rates people have been posting, especially because its frequently accompanied by 'but the survivors are incredible!'
It's like how we commonly get posts about the survivors being too strong, accompanied by a video of a killer winning, but the survivors almost won!
Even if a killer is really good at the game, if they are hitting survivors who are really good at the game as they claim, then their kill rates should not be so far out of BHVR's target range
I definitely agree on the streaks. If there were only a handful of players who ever pulled this off I could see it, but if someone came on the forum and was like 'I just won 10 games in a row as killer!' we'd all just shrug. The expectations for what it means to be a power role are way out of whack.
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@bingbongboi90 said:
Please explain to me how everyone knows this is a good patch or not. Do all of you have inside information from behaviour?
Like 90% of the changes are made or break depending on the numbers. The gen speed boost, all the killer "buff" changes regarding unique hooking and of course the survivor & killer perk changes regarding these.
No one knows how good this will be. But i am personally afraid of an abomination of a patch looking at the recent balance patches where the devs also dont listen to feedback and just push it live anyway. Aka clown situation of last patch.
Listen, we're all trying to panic and/or celebrate here. What you trying to pull being all reasonable?
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@Inosennatoki said:
We now have anti slugging, anti tunneling and anti face camping.
Hopefully the generator speed will be reduced to help the M1 killer after the latest patch.
BHVR has been pretty clear if that if results in a kill rate drop they'll make adjustments. They want the game to be killer sided, that hasn't changed.
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@Dark_Vorahk1 said:
With the major changes coming soon both are (at least on the surface) geared very much against killer. While anti-slugging preserves gameflow anti-tunnel serves more as idiot safeguarding.
Where anti-slug works:
- Activating after 90 seconds (and every other down after) is great. This does not interfere with pressure as it only stops stalemate scenarios where survivors are neither actively moving towards escape or death.
Where friction points appear:
- Recovery while crawling is fine on its own, but without a basekit Deerstalker as compensation it becomes a bit too easy to lose a dying survivor when distracted by their teammates or side objectives through perks.
- Auto recovery is not necessarily a problem either, but coupled with the ability to crawl while recovering goes against any decision making/skill expression a survivor would have to make a choice previously. A simple solution would be to slow the recovery during movement.
- This system does not differentiate slugging for pressure versus slugging for bad manners. I believe survivors should suffer some penalty such as losing recovery progression or pausing the 90 second self pick up timer if another Survivor is damaged while 1 or more are in the dying state. Otherwise killers are punished for taking the time they need to spread pressure or avoid pallet/flashlight saves.
But with anti-tunnel, it does become much more complicated. We have yet to see it in action, but the sticks far outweigh the carrots in this scenario. In the announced state I don't forsee this affecting how soon survivors die, only shortening match time after they do.
Here's why it's too harsh in its current state:
- Hook status delay is simply unnecessary and has far too many ramifications on existing perks such as Make Your Choice and Floods Of Rage. Many killers who choose to proxy camp will be unaffected by this delay, and will only serve to create awkward scenarios with delayed perk effects (assuming they are delayed along with the hooks.)
- Anti-collision would be best off applying to all situations where Endurance is active and not specifically to unhook situations. A current pain point for the killer role is just how often survivors can gain the Endurance status and how often they can weaponize it to protect teammates. As an aside, Endurance really does not have business remaining applied to healthy survivors.
- Protection from Killer Instinct also has awkward ramifications for killer powers, as a recently unhooked survivor is now unstoppable in niche scenarios such as solving the Lament Configuration, evading Victor and the Legion, and acquiring Slipstream through proximity to teammates, among many others.
- The ability to see a killers aura after an unhook coupled with the Elusive status makes it a bit too easy to hide under their nose and begin a getaway. This should have a range requirement to encourage safer unhooks instead of directly rewarding risky saves.
- Since the loss of collision, Killer Instinct, and aura abilities do not have status effects associated with their activation, it creates an awkward scenario where there is no clean UI update for losing these buffs following conspicuous actions.
- Activating permanent progression bonuses for survivors dying at the 5th hook is simply too late in the game. Even in scenarios when killers bounce between two targets they are forced into lose/lose scenarios. If a Survivor misplays the killer is forced to slug, which activates the anti-slugging feature. If they capitalize on the failure, they activate the anti-tunnel feature. It's a bit ridiculous that two survivors can be on death hook and the system still activates. Truly, this system should only activate if a Survivor is dead by the third hook to only discourage extreme tunneling and not be obstructive of normal gameplay. This system is also currently far too easy to activate with alternative Kill methods such as Reverse Bear Traps, Condemned and Tombstone Moris.
- Disabling damage and block states for generators following a Kill on a survivor who has been hooked twice in a row is also a bit extreme. While perks for either scenario are a pain point for survivors left in a 3v1 scenario, it should take into account things such as time elapsed or generators remaining. I'd wager most players would be all for a grace period of avoiding powerful perks, but to outright disable them permanently is too far.
- Targeting commonly agreed S-tier killers with lessened effects for unique hooks isn't bad in concept, but very awkward in execution. If killers had classes that had varied effectiveness of unique hook bonuses this could be interesting. Killers with low mobility getting longer or larger haste bonuses, while killers with teleport and ranged abilities benefiting from more aura would be interesting and add a new layer to gameplay. But as it stands "You're too strong and we don't like that." sticks out a bit too much as an issue of power design and balance rather than a chance to offer unique bonuses across the roster.
That being said, there are a few bonuses to the upcoming systems:
- The updated post unhook status effects is a bit confusing but does lay groundwork for further base changes to perks. The Elusive status is fantastic and streamlines perk designs, possibly buffing older perks that did not cover all bases covered by this status effect.
- Adding rewards to unique unhooks is always going to be more effective in guiding gameplay rather than wrist-slapping necessary choices where the killers hand is forced. This system would probably benefit from tiered effectiveness to maintain pressure, if acquiring 2/3/4 unique hooks before resetting itself. But at its basic level bonus Regression, haste and aura is a neat reward for doing your job "fairly." If I'm understanding it correctly, a hook is going to be considered unique so long as it's not the same survivor in a row, but giving exponentially better effects for every individual hook on a survivor would be far more interesting and give incentive to equalize hook states instead of just juggling 2 targets. (Even a bloodpoints bonus would be welcome as outside of end game collapse a 12 hook game does not max you out in Sacrifice.)
That being said, both are very good starts to streamlining ideal match durations and improving the gameplay experience. But before both roles can benefit, these features need more time to bake. Anti-slug is far easier to implement as it improves match flow by reducing stalemates and "alternate Win conditions." Anti-tunnel is going to be a very delicate dance, as it's current iteration does not address why its chosen as a strategy and does not offer enough consistent incentives to change playstyles.
I really thought people would be more mad about the anti-slug than the anti-tunnel, though they actually gave us numbers for one which is allowing everyone to imagine worst case scenarios for the other.
Hook status delay is simply unnecessaryI think this is one of the best things they could possibly do. Honestly kind of mad they just didn't do this a long time ago.
such as Make Your Choice and Floods Of Rage.We're all playing hypothetical games without numbers, which is fun, but trying to guess at how the perks are going to look opens up a whole other basket of possibilities.
But just to try and guess anyway:
Make Your Choice: I think the 32 m requirement means it could stay as is, because the killer is not camping in this scenario.
Floods of Rage: Yeah, probably need more of a rework.
Many killers who choose to proxy camp will be unaffected by this delayExcept it will. The strength of proxy camping is you don't have to pay attention to the hook. You can focus on other things and turn around the moment you see the unhook. Now you need either to stare at the hook (eliminating a lot of power in proxy camping) or good game sense on when the unhook might happen. That's why the delay of the notification is so important.
Anti-collision would be best off applying to all situations where Endurance is active and not specifically to unhook situations. A current pain point for the killer role is just how often survivors can gain the Endurance status and how often they can weaponize it to protect teammates.I'd be fine with it as a concept, though that's not really related to the proposed changes.
now unstoppable in niche scenariosUnstoppable is going a little far. They're harder to find, absolutely, but that's the point.
The ability to see a killers aura after an unhook coupled with the Elusive status makes it a bit too easy to hide under their nose and begin a getaway. This should have a range requirement to encourage safer unhooks instead of directly rewarding risky saves.Again this feels like its the point. The unhooked survivor is meant to have the advantage in these scenarios. A range requirement seems wrong as it just awards camping.
If a Survivor misplays the killer is forced to slug, which activates the anti-slugging feature. If they capitalize on the failure, they activate the anti-tunnel feature. It's a bit ridiculous that two survivors can be on death hook and the system still activates. Truly, this system should only activate if a Survivor is dead by the third hook to only discourage extreme tunneling and not be obstructive of normal gameplay.Should the killer be giving up the benefits they get from unique hooks because they weren't going to tunnel anyway?
This is the thing I think keeps getting missed - the killer is getting buffs. If the killer got their buffs, and could easily evade the survivor buffs, it wouldn't really accomplish its goal.
I'd wager most players would be all for a grace period of avoiding powerful perks, but to outright disable them permanently is too far.I don't think it will be permanent, but I get that BHVR's wording can be unclear.
as it's current iteration does not address why its chosen as a strategy and does not offer enough consistent incentives to change playstyles.We don't know the numbers.
I think it actually creates more possibilities in playstyles if the numbers aren't either minor or out of whack. There's more pro / cons to various options. Tunnel to get to a 3v1, but face stronger survivors, or spread out the hooks. Tunneling and slugging will still likely be powerful, but tuned down creating more options in what gets played.
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@SadakoSlay said:
behaviour did a Q&A in 2021 where they said that a killer killing a survivor counts as a win while if a survivor escapes that counts as a win for that individual survivor. In this same clip they say that one dbd match is basically 4 1v1s for the killer. If that's how this game works then why are we getting the antitunnel changes? These chanegs now directtly go against the killers win condition and will affect mmr. If it's 4 1v1s then why are killer gettings punished for winning a 1v1 and getting a survivor out?
Here's the clip for those curious: https://youtu.be/Pz7f_WPutq8?si=eThlrdjogOZxfcmZ&t=1521
That video was about how MMR works. What is a win for MMR. BHVR has always maintained that it is just a matchmaking method and that people can look at the win conditions anyway they want.
But while we're on it, if you want to view it as a 1v1, why should the other three survivors be punished because you cut out a weak link? If anything treating it as a 1v1 makes the anti-tunnel more logical because the survivors shouldn't be dependent on each other (if we want to follow this logic).
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991786#Comment_3991786
Lol. You do realize he's a fog whisperer, right? Have you noticed that you never see a fog whisperer playing against comp players? Otz and Tru3 play at roughly the same time on the same servers, yet Tru3 is consistently against comp survivors, and Otz is against potatoes that run into walls.
Just a funny little thing I noticed.
Otz and Tru3 play at roughly the same time on the same serversKnightlight's team hit Otz about two months ago (going off Youtube postings), they hit Tru3 about four months ago that I can see.
Is there any evidence or we just going on feeling for the conspiracy theory?
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@Dadeordye said:
I am hating this new approach for DEV Updates.
Why not give the damn number with it?! We have to wait until the patch notes go live together with PTB to know.
God damn it!It's clearly meant to do just what is happening. Get people talking and speculating to stir interest in the game.
As I somewhat said in the post, if all us just said 'okay, we'll wait for the real numbers' then things like this wouldn't happen. It's crummy, but slow dripping keeps people coming back for more.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991756#Comment_3991756
It's been a real popular fallback around here lately, for sure, and the way everyone feels entitled to maintain an 80%+ KR is wild. If you're so good, do it without cheese tactics.
Good survivors can't be beat, ergo, if the survivors lost it must mean they weren't good.
Its unfalsifiable and working backwards from a conclusion.
You can show your own clips. You can point to Nightlight. You can point to long streamer sessions using weaker killers or giving themselves multiple handicaps and doing just fine.
It doesn't matter, the conclusion has been established. Some people aren't looking for evidence, they're looking to have their opinions reinforced.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991606#Comment_3991606
I mean, we haven't seen this to test in any way, so most everything is speculation.
I've said every time that people talked about "not having collision" off hook that you need more than that, because of how hits work.
If they listened, or generally would've thought about that, then Elusive needs to also make you basically invisible to hits entirely. You're basically a ghost until the timer or conspicuous action.
In all honestly, I expect it will work this way anyhow, because it's only purpose it's to be "anti body blocking", and taking the protection hit is exactly that. So the elusive survivor should be that ghost for it to fulfill its purpose.
If they listened, or generally would've thought about that, then Elusive needs to also make you basically invisible to hits entirely. You're basically a ghost until the timer or conspicuous action.This is the trade off I don't think a lot of people are getting.
We could make survivors completely unhittable, in which case tunneling and body blocking are both impossible.
Or we can make it so that they don't have collision but can be hit, in case tunneling is still possible and body blocking is still possible.
BHVR, generally, doesn't like to make things impossible, just avoid the extreme situations. Killers don't, going off the general vibes of the comments, want to lose the option to tunnel entirely, which inevitably means the possibility of body blocking has to exist.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991663#Comment_3991663
And killers will still be able to 4k.
I don’t wanna lose the option to punish bad, dumb, super greedy, brazen, miserable survivor plays… without being punished myself and just handing them a free ride. Not happening. Not in my lobbies.
So yup, I’ll just stick to top killers running full meta. Straight tunnel at 5 gens
Anti-tunnel? Cute. Let’s see how far they make it.
Worst case, I’ll just slap on an anti-gen perk on Nurse.
Anti-slug? Heh, let’s run an experiment… how many times can you down the same survivor before they finally bleed out? :D Sounds fun, right?
We’re gonna have sooo much fun, aren’t we?
…aren’t we?
I don’t wanna lose the option to punish bad, dumb, super greedy, brazen, miserable survivor plays… without being punished myself and just handing them a free ride. Not happening. Not in my lobbies.You can still punish bad plays.
Both sides make mistakes in games. Different mistakes have differing levels of penalties associated with them. I'm sure survivors thought it was great when killers made the mistake of chasing them into an infinite.
So yup, I’ll just stick to top killers running full meta. Straight tunnel at 5 gensYou still can, nothing is stopping you.
We’re gonna have sooo much fun, aren’t we?I mean you were tunneling before, and you're going to be tunneling now. You're apparently having fun, all the survivor experience can do from here is go up.
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@cogsturning said:
A lot of killer mains cannot accept that "it's okay to lose" part, yet survivors are expected to just die over and over and be fine with it. I'm totally cool with losing to people who were better than me, regardless of which role im playing. It's impressive and they deserve the win.
Yet as killer, I can often beat better players with just luck, perks, or a small map. As survivor, beating a genuinely better killer is damn near impossible. More often, my team gets wiped out by a killer with worse skills than all of us. But killers seem to feel they deserve kills just for existing.
yet survivors are expected to just die over and over and be fine with it.One of the best recent changes was the abandon system were survivors were thrilled that they could lose without it being so boring.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991579#Comment_3991579
- Killer will just get the bare minimum while survivors get a lot. I wouldn't think this would be a buff, specially considering you will need to lose time kicking gens to get some value of the "buff" (lets see how this will be implemented).
- Yeah but if you kill someone with 6 hooks or least you will be punished. There will be plenty of scenarios where you could kill someone with 5 hooks without tunneling but you will need to avoid it depending on how strong the gen buff will be.
- Experienced survivors know how to play around tunneling, that's why they don't need these changes. Good survivors will know how to delay a death - or even prevent it. What doesn't mean the 4 will be forever in the match, considering the objective of the killer is to take people out of the match. I'm not advocating that hard tunneling is a good strategy - never said that, LOL -, but there will be a point in the match when people need to get out. Getting someone of the game before all gen ends is the natural course of the match. What is not natural is getting out of your way to spread hooks to avoid a penalty. If you get to the last gen with the 4 survivors alive most of the time you will lose.
Killer will just get the bare minimum while survivors get a lot. I wouldn't think this would be a buff, specially considering you will need to lose time kicking gens to get some value of the "buff"We'll see in a couple of day.
But saying you don't get value out of the gen kick buff is like a survivors saying the heal buffs aren't buffs because its better to just stay injured and slam gens. It's a discussion of value sure, which gets a lot more complex on different playstyles.
Yeah but if you kill someone with 6 hooks or least you will be punished. There will be plenty of scenarios where you could kill someone with 5 hooks without tunneling but you will need to avoid it depending on how strong the gen buff will be.And even if this happens the killer got buffs for the unique hooks even if that was the way they were going to play.
If you get to the last gen with the 4 survivors alive most of the time you will lose.Broadly speaking, you should, but you still have a chance.
If the survivors lose someone early they will still almost certainly lose. Which is fine. But these changes will give survivors a chance. Which goes back to the OP's point about about needing to play all four survivors. Just eliminate one and win is not a good game.