Are people really that upset about the anti-tunnel?
So I might have a small brain or something but I don't know why people are upset about it. The idea is just saying "hey don't be sweaty and try to spread hooks around" I have played both killer and survivor and I will say I have tunneled once or twice when I was having a bad day. But I don't understand why people are upset about it when basically it's just learn your not gonna get a 4k all the time and a 3k is still technically a win 1k or 0 is a lose and 2 is a tie. So I might be missing something in all this but I really don't understand why so many people are upset with it.
Follow up post:
@jamally093 said:
So kinda follow up on my post about why people weren't happy with the anti-tunnel. So I decided I'll try making a version that seems fair...in some way you can't be perfect not no perks will be changed that would take to long so if it says perks effected kinda just think whatever perks are closest to it. Also feel free to share your thoughts.
New Anti-Tunnel
We noticed many haven't been very pleased with how tunneling has been with players being kicked out way to quickly before they even had a chance to blink so we decided to introduce a new anti-tunnel mechanic. We'll start with how it works for killers
Killers
Bonus kicking speed of 10% on generators, pallets and walls for 15 seconds. Instead of just waiting for someone to be rescued to run back and down them we thought of giving a small bonus to do something different by applying pressure to other locations or simply getting rid of any pesky pallets or walls that might be blacking your path for a nice chase later on.
Now of course we might get a few that want to bypass and think "pfff I wanna still tunnel and just do a 3v1 to get that 4k easily" Well we wanna try and prevent that everyone should have a fair chance of playing rather then someone having to wait for their friends to finish the match to play again. So we introduced for killers a small punishment for tunneling.
Reduced carry speed. So you wanna tunnel? Okay well your movement speed will be decreased by 10% if you tunnel and pick up the survivor also staggering while carrying that survivor will by increased by 5%. Perks that relate to either stagger or movement carry speed is ignored. We find that this could show you need to spread pressure to others not just one person. We have a working idea of hooks being blocked within at 12 meter radius of the tunneled survivor to reduce tunneling but we would rather test it first ourselves then suddenly put it in.
Now for the survivors those being tunneling might not have a fun time and we wanna make sure your games can be in a way fun. We introduce.
The second chance
When taken off the hook you gain the second chance status. Similar to endurance this allows you to take two hits from the killer before going down similar to being healthy but rather you enter deep wound and if hit again your deep wound timer is reduced by 50% now don't worry fellow killers this status is automatically lost if the survivor does any actions like before that removed endurance. Note second chance will only active on the second hit Off the record or Mettle of Man will not work with it. Second Chance's duration is slightly longer then the basekit endurance gained from being taking off hook being around 12 seconds in length. If the killer does still hit you, you gain a extra 10% speed boost upon entering second chance.
Now we do try to figure out how to make both sides fair but you always get an uneven score sometimes. The idea for the anti-tunnel is not to punish the killer fully we have realized 6 hooks or you lose any generator kicking is a little over the top so we have tried to figure out a few ideas.
Since a survivor can just give up on hook which can trigger the generator blocking mechanic we instead wanted to try something different if the same survivor is hooked three times in a row without anyone else in between for two times then generator regression is slowed ,kicking any pallets and stun endurance is reduced all by 5% perks related will no longer work. Now we do see how this might be insane so we wanting to try it out ourselves first. The idea is not to punish those who don't tunnel rather punish those who do so the same survivor must be hooked three times in a row for it to activate if they end up sacrificed on their first or second hook then it is not activated as we don't know if their teammates forgot them or simply they weren't in the mood to continue.
We do hope these changes peak your interest and please do feel free to share your opinion and suggest ideas to try and improve it.
mpt-at-better-anti-tunnel
Comments
I think it mostly stems from killer players has been having too easy of a time, and now that the easy cheese strategy is being nerfed, it won't be AS easy.
But the compensation buffs are really good in all honesty
it's a step in the right direction. I'm just keeping my head down for now since there's a lot
Killer players have been tunneling a lot because a series of changes over the past year have made gens fly and healing be nearly instant, making it very difficult to keep pressure on survs, especially with non mobility killers. The fault is BHVR's,not killers who are simply trying to adapt to the meta as best they can.
the reason why people are complaining is because of gen speeds being too fast when going against competent survivors since survivors have a lot of resources at the start of the chase they can generally waste them and by the time you down them and hook (not including flashlight/pallet saves) 1-3 gens can pop and the killer cannot catch up without camping and tunneling or using an s tier and that's how it works on live now
That is very debatable.
Gens only fly if the killer can't put enough pressure on the map, or hyperfocuses on a single survivor for too long, allowing the others to sit on gens.
Knowing when to call off the chase is something many killer players has to accept. I had to learn that one the hard way myself.
It's like this every time there's a change or a decent perk released. It's quite sad. Dead hard, Made for this, Hooks re spawning, survivors getting endurance. Tale as old as time.
Its always tough to gauge how the player base actually feel based on the forum posts. 10 angry players can make a lot of noise.
But every major change gets accompanied by a wailing and gnashing of teeth. People are still on treating the changes as if tunneling is now an auto loss.
Non mobility killers cannot efficiently pressure under the current system because it takes them too long to complete a chase unless the surv makes a mistake.
They are upset because tunneling someone out and making the game a 3v1 instead of a 4v1 is the easiest way to play Killer. It is not even a strategic decision (since I have seen some people claim that they are taking strategies away), because tunneling someone out is always the best choice, since you basically secure your win at this point.
The changes now discourage this and encourage going for different Survivors. Overall, it will be fine, but people like to panic and being loud instead of trying to adapt.
Because some people like to have more than 4 chases in a match. With how a good chunk of survivors play they just play in the most boring and uninteractive way if you're not playing a killer that actually punishes pre run shift W.
Maybe they would be less upset if this community didn't treat people without uninterrupted winstreaks as subhuman trash? Just a thought.
It's been 3 years of these same people having literally zero empathy for anyone except themselves in this game.
Similar massive changes over the years have been met with "git gud", "you're refusing to adapt", "just quit if you don't like it", or "you're just entitled".
Mostly from the same group of people currently melting down over this patch that now will affect then and their gameplay instead.
I don't think the issue is the concept of an anti-tunnel system. If anything people have been asking for rewards for spreading hooks on the killer end and we do see that in the system they have put on the PTB. However, we also have to look at the sum of all the parts. There's a lot of massive changes that basically will hurt lower mobility and lower lethal killers leaving killers like Nurse and Blight to reap benefits from the system while being able to play around it if not power through the system as well.
We also see a ton of killer perk nerfs with no buffs leaving the weaker killers put in a worse place as well. Meanwhile Nurse and Blight won't really care.
Basically if you play anything other than the absolute best killers in the game, this entire ptb is a middle finger to you.
Except that the way you describe how Killers want to play is simply tunneling someone out and then just play with the other Survivors to go for multiple chases, because they just cannot lose anymore. If you tunnel someone out you can have a 12 Hook-game risk-free basically.
Sure, good to stroke your ego. But not really healthy.
Stroking one's ego is the only goal of multiplayer games.
This is essentially how I feel. I'm not vindictive about it and I don't think the changes are incredibly extreme, but they are at least viable which says a lot. I also don't need to sit here and mourn Killer's ability to steamroll as efficiently given how bad Survivor gameplay has been for the last 3 years. Especially while we're getting blamed for these changes.
I will say however, that it is fueling my mindset that those attracted primarily to the Killer role are more delicate and have to be handled differently than Survivors.
This is what the same people have been hearing from their opponents in the game, each time they won. And they see no incentive not to repeat it back to them—also, this community and its "values" don't give any incentive as well. Nobody in DbD (and in our world) cares for anyone except themselves, it's not a secret. But, if it's all about the revenge, people should just say so instead of pretending they support fairness.
People don't like changes that make things less easy for themselves. Not hard, just less easy.
The numbers are a lot more generous than I was expecting, tbh (on both sides).
I'm certainly not going to complain about getting Killer buffs for playing the way I more or less already play. A lot of the complaints have been around how "abuseable" these systems might be at the very top levels of the game. I feel like a lot of players have an expectation that BHVR is going to balance the game for the tiny 5% of players that eat, sleep and breathe DBD 24/7 and I'm sorry, but that's never going to happen. The vast majority of the DBD player base is casual.
On a side note, if the changes don't go through for the main mode, I think it would be great if they were added in their entirety to Chaos Shuffle to promote a more casual experience. The 20% gen regression would be especially welcome in a mode that doesn't guarantee you any gen defense perks and the anti-tunnel / anti-slug systems would allow Survivors to mitigate these unpopular strategies to a degree (these strats can be common in Chaos Shuffle, especially in the absence of any gen defense).
Totally agree on both points. For everyone saying that these changes will kill high level play, that's really apples and oranges. If anything they should be asking for the numbers to scale via MMR or something along those lines, not to punish the majority of players for not being cracked at the game.
Fingers crossed they don't back down, but this would also be very welcome in case they do. The modifiers very quickly end with the Killer camping/tunneling/slugging when things don't go their way, which makes the modes feel pointless. They really should feel more lax than they do.
im not complaining because i tunnel, im complaining because the circumstances theyve laid out for anti-tunneling are applied to all facets of the game instead of those going solely for this strategy and as a result it makes the game invertedly more complicated on the killer side. hooks are now obscured for over 10 seconds after unhook because killers like blight or nurse can come back to hook from any point on any map and restart a chase, so killers i play who benefit from punishing bold and close unhooks get a kick in the head (oh you want to use phead and get hits under hook? hope you like proxy camping now). there are real, plausible situations where the 6 hook penalty for killing a survivor can be at risk of activating if a survivor does not play well in early game (or any point in game if the killer is having a bad match) that will force killers to still 'tunnel' and face the penalties OR slug the survivor for added pressure (this is something a new player will not know to do innately and with the anti slug changes it risks giving someone free UB if the team focuses gens instead of picking.)
with any changes related to tunneling, and even with the go next changes, ive noticed the recurring problem that lines of code in a game cannot determine the difference between someone playing badly and someone going through an unoptimized and unfair game experience. since the tunneling system is based on when the killer hooks a survivor and who it is, and nothing else, this then defines tunneling in game as any act of hooking the same survivor twice concurrently, where as im sure any regular player who plays both sides will tell you that the same survivor gaining two hook states minutes apart is not someone being tunneled innately (it could be, in some cases, but genuinely sometimes the same person is just found again or returns to a spot they were already at, making them easy to find.) and there are multiple plausible reasons why another hook on the same survivor happened in a row, if were using a system that does not consider time spent in between like this one.
and like i agree, if the killer sucks they should and likely will lose, that is fine. but with a system like thats supposed to encourage more fair gameplay it feels as though it is occasionally too lenient in the tunneling penalties department allowing for too possible of edge cases where someone just playing the game can punish themselves for just trying to play. yes people are posting "malding killers when they cant tunnel at 5 gens" memes but this just isnt it. toxic players will find new things to use to assure wins (or ive seen some claim tunneling is still easy enough on some killers) while as the casual playerbase has to dance around silly rules and make double sided penalizing decisions in matches that are already losing battles lest daddy bhvr says those last two gens are getting done in 70 seconds or less. unlike unhook protection changes which i always saw as a needed fix for a long standing problem (easy hook trades) this stuff feels so restricting even if i dont tunnel. like youre taking away my ability to see unhooks for this? really?
It is not even a strategic decision (since I have seen some people claim that they are taking strategies away), because tunneling someone out is always the best choice, since you basically secure your win at this point.It's interesting because what's actually happening is encouraging strategic depth.
Killers can now be faced with an actual question on what to do and who to chase. Pursue the death hook target and give the gen boosts, pursue the death target but leave them slugged, or go after a different target.
Instead of - see death hook and non-death hook, chase death hook.
im much less inclined to call it anti-tunnel when the changes are just generally anti killing survivors early on when your able too.
Then we buff those killers. Are we going to sit here and act like mobility killers aren't taking up the vast majority of games anyway? How many times in the last 50 games have you played against Trapper, Skull Merchant, Hag? Probably close to 0, because people don't enjoy walking around the map anyway, even if they were the best characters in the game, their playstyle is boring. The solution is to fix the baseline problem, and then buff the outliers that need help.
Im not worried because I already don't tunnel. It's not too bad unless you're fighting a coordinated SWF where it really helps, but in most cases, it really depends on who you're playing as, map and if its SWF or not. Unfortunately, swf will forever be unbalanced due to the fact that they can't really nerf swf, because it would be basically punishing you for having friends.
I'm down for these changes. I've always been a loud, bitter minority for it but part of the reason I've always been vocal about hating the reworked Pain Res was because I went out of my way to overwhelm survivors by 8 hooking them and farming pain res regression off everybody. thr new pain res was technically healthier but most people used the stronger token regression as a one off while they tunnel that first token out.
I feel like I'm getting an old friend back
So true I need to stop reading the doomposts it's depressing, mindblowing how whiny people are
hopefully devs push everything to live with number tweaks if needed, great patch it took years but they finally threw some bones at casual survivors
This has been what I have been saying. Its like the devs did not consider killer enjoyment on slow movement killers. I hope the devs are honest about adjusting the numbers or this will be something.
Name checks out lol
Most people i know play multiplayer games to enjoy the game's gameplay, and often to enjoy the company of the people they play with and against. There are games that are set up to be egofests, but DBD is really not one of them when you compare it to Valorant, Apex, League, or whatever FOTM fighting game people are playing
Check out this clip from Otz posted on Reddit. He is punished for not letting a survivor finish the last generator. By the new 'anti-tunnel' rules he should have just ignored a survivor on a generator.
What he did here was NOT tunneling by ay definition of the word, but now apparently it is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1n7qxtv/i_dont_think_he_likes_the_new_changes/
Yet he won this game anyway. Killers are not meant to win every single game. All these changes do is make a 3v1 actually feasible for the survivors when someone is taken out at 4-5 gens.
Not the point. The point is that if a survivor is able to literally sit there doing a generator in your face, you should not be punished for not being like "Oh Hi. Yeah, I just hooked you so have fun on that generator, bestie!"
Yet again, this "debuff" he got did not matter in the slightest. He still won the game. Nothing about what you are arguing matters because he played the situation poorly. He didn't have to kill them there, he very easily could have pulled them off gen, dropped them, and kicked gen. IN THE CLIP YOU provided he has someone injured and knows their general area, yet still chooses to kill the person that would incur the penalty anyway (which yet again did not matter in the slightest). He played it bad, just accept that, and yet again, HE STILL WON, the penalty meant NOTHING.
I love how survivors are always losing and dead in these clips, if you're trying to prove survivors are op you're doing a really poor job…
of course Otz hates it, his job is literally doing killer winstreaks on Dbd
He doesn't have to "let the person finish the gen", there are options: he can slug if it's really that critical, or just hook. There's one gen left, so up until maybe a week ago when this was announced this was everyone telling us "you have to secure a kill because the game is over".
Given that he went with the hooking option and then won the game, this isn't really making your case that it's a problem. You seem upset that he didn't "win harder" here.
Whether or not he won isn't the point I care about. The point is simply that be it at 6 generators or 1 generator, the killer should not be punished for not doing something about a survivor that doesn't even bother to run from them.
The buffs to survivors? That's fine with me. It's the punishing the killer for not going out of their way that I have a problem with, and this is coming from someone who when i play survivor, if anyone in a match its getting tunneled out, it's me. My friends joke that its because I am a Jill Valentine main, all killers have Nemesis vision. STAAAAARS!
People aren't fond of the "Strategic depth" in this case, because you're not deciding how to push your advantage, you're deciding which foot you'd rather shoot yourself in. Whether you technically have more choices to make or not, people are never gonna be happy with being forced into a lose/lose situation, especially one caused by the other player making a mistake.
What people are happy with or not is subjective and BHVR will have to make a judgement on community feelings.
Objectively it's not a lose/lose (which isn't surprising being the term gets used incorrectly a lot), it's closer to a win/win though we're more talking about trade offs.
The survivor made a mistake, the other two survivors would have been much better off if she had run earlier to take more chase time.
Otz now has to play 2 survivors instead of 3. The survivors are in a worse position. They aren't completely and totally a lost cause because of the changes.
It's the difference between the current 'survivors made a mistake, they should lose the game' and 'survivors made a mistake, they should be more likely to lose the game'.
I love how survivors are always losing and dead in these clips, if you're trying to prove survivors are op you're doing a really poor job…It's one of my favorite parts of the forum.
'Survivors are broken, look at this trial, they almost won!'
I don't usually tunnel or slug people unless really needed, so the antitunnel stuff doesn't really bother me all that much.
What bothers me is the killer penalties if someone dies before 6 hooks. I have been put into a situation multiple times where person fresh off the hook has literally ran straight into my loving arms and i've downed them. Am i supposed to just pat their head now and be like..oh you go on and do 2 gens before i can hook you again? I don't understand why we are giving such immunity to people. Yeah i can slug…oh wait no i cant :D. You see my point?
You want to improve the enjoyment of survivor side by destroying the fun from killer side isnt the way to do things. Killers should not be getting penalties for doing their job.
Another thing that i think needs to be addressed is the 30 seconds of goodies after getting unhooked. Its too much. That means in endgame thats a free escape. It needs to be lowered quite heavily maybe to 15 seconds or made that this protection stops after gens are finished.
Some of the perk changes like nerfing leverage was extremely tone deaf too. Leverage counters resurgence which is commonly used. Also medkits are the most used item in this game. Use it. You can heal yourself with it fast with botany now buffed. BBQ being basekit. I'm all for it, but now that survivors know that its in the game 100% they will counter it, most M1 killers won't get much value out of it anyways.
Also as a survivor main i'm not happy with these changes. I feel like the handholding is getting too much and i personally don't enjoy games that feel extremely one sided. I remember the times few years back when survivors were quite strong and i escaped most of my matches. I also have noticed that survivors that have decent hours and knowledge in the game arent actually supporting and happy with these changes. Its the people that don't bother learning looping and map layouts, or can't even look behind them in chase.
is so funny how low mmr people is like "oh you're just crying because you're a nooob and killers are so op" but when the killer gets 5 gens out because of "good survivor morale" and the match ends with 4 escapes and only one hook is just the killer that decide to not tunnel and try to protect the gens to get them done anyways,
or better yet let's make behavior punish survivors just like in the 2v8 game
now if survivors finish 3 gens before the killer can get 6 hooks the generators get his repair speed forever penalized and will get a forever broken effect for the rest of the trial
that sounds fair right, must sound right since some of ya believe that this bs is fair for killers jajajaj XD
Honestly the biggest part that annoys me about it since I played it yesterday is how it feels to play. I feel like a toddler that did something good and get a reward for that everytime I don't tunnel, especially with those ugly yellow hooks if I didn't and red ones if I did. Or on the other side that if I did tunnel that I simply feel like I get punished to death.
Also 6 hooks is really not a little amount of hooks to gather before you're allowed to kill someone - it's 2 deathhooks and 1 person with 1 hook if played optimal. It feels really bad to constantly think: "oh look someone I could kill ah nevermind I'm not allowed to kill yet it's before 6 hooks, also that's the last hooked one." The punishments are also pretty crazy, the 25% repairspeed bonus result into 20% faster gens if people do them alone (90/1,25 = 72/90 = 0,8 = 20% faster) and the gen blockage should explain itself.
Honestly in the ptb I lost maybe 2 times out of 8 or so, but the anti-tunnel feauture wasn't even a problem for the most part. I'm almost at 3200 hours and the highest I saw where 1700 once, I believe that if I actually had any suitable survivors to go against, that this system would be so much worse - like this I can't even really say if it's too much, but I can say that it feels awful. It's breaking your arm pretty heavely to cooperate and at the same time rewards you like a kid.
(Sorry for the lengthy text, I will probably get used to it, but that's how I feel about it after yesterday. Also I'm in the knowledge that 8 matches isn't a lot, but it's an okay enough pattern to at least say something to the feeling of it)
I’m right there with ya.
... I am just... I just don't know what to think anymore... I dunno what we're even trying to do with DBD.
So the only thing that matters is whether we win or lose? Really? On a PTB game, this is a valid argument? We have so many effects here that means Survivors gave a trap card on the killer...
Let's ignore the fact that the Survivor is working the gen in Ot'zs face because there is this hanging GOTCHA clause over his head where both he and Survivor KNOW that going after this player is not good...
Let's ignore the fact that if this Survivor didn't let go of the generator, they have to be grabbed off... if Otz does this, he can't kick the gen unless he drops. If he drops to kick it first then he loses 30% wiggle progress, and might not be able to reach a hook. If he hooks first he then can't kick the gen. So to avoid this I have to remember to walk back and lunge… but uess what, even if I lunge I still can't hook, because I stop the gen regressing…
Let's ignore the fact Otz hasn't tunneled and it's still in effect.
Let's ignore the fact he has Deadlock on the most progressed gen and can potentially still hold the gates from popping, the game isn't over, and yet now he can't stop this highly progressed gen. If this gen was 1 tappable at 99, the above grab scenario is now even worse, and a potential loss of a Survivor at gate for doing nothing wrong.
Let's ignore the fact that if he slugs, he loses this Survivor cause they crawl away and pick themselves up, so they have this free getaway clause built in.
The fact you can't see the myriad of ways this can create gotcha scenarios is just dumbfounded to me. It also is so upsetting how many basekit perks killer gets to compensate that really help killers like Wraith and Vecna shine... but do nothing to help the killers who really need it.... and even if it did... this is where we want DBD to go? This switch your brain off, follow the aura nonsense where noone has to think about what they are doing?
I play mostly Survivor, and hate almost everything here... this game is unga bunga slop with this update, all mechanical, no tactics, no thought about trade offs in builds cause half our build is provided for us. We all know the affects in play, and can play around them.
At this point got the whole hog. Add basekit WoO, and basekit Kindred, add Legions gen progress add-on to all killers and Nowhere to hide basekit. Let's remove every last shred of awareness and decision making from the game and focus entirely on chase… kill the lower tiers off properly and let dash slop reign supreme. Let's have everyone become a God damned NPC and kill the human element from the game completely.
You won’t feel these anti updates against your average survivor or SWF. But get an actual competent team and you’ll notice a drastic difference.
Absolutely not. The goal of a multiplayer game doesn't exist. It's multiple. One of them is allowing a fun experience for a group of people. If all you can think of is egoing, then I think you might be taking this game, or any game, too seriously.
You don't really seem to get the point. It's that your disincentivized to do something against a survivor doing something in your face. We had the same thing before with old ds unbreakable. Yes we also won these games. However, this is unhealthy for the game.
We are teaching players to just not care because there are systems to back up their bad and careless decisions. The one that gets punished is the one that actively tries to punish that careless behaviour.
Don't get me wrong, I'm against tunneling and camping as the next guy, but this isn't the way to go. Both are sometimes necessary evils to punish reckless / too efficient survivor gameplay.
This update doesn't address that. For a long list of killer to say the least.
It's not about winning. It's about the mentality that it thought to the players.
Survivors can do stuff in the killers face because they know THEY will get punished for it. The killer just has to chose his punishment.
We literally had the same issue years ago in perk form. Now it's basekit.
Tunneling and slugging are bad. But this isn't the way to address them. It needs more work.
To all those saying "oh but he still won the game":
OF COURSE HE DID, HE IS OTZDARVA. He's one of the best players in the game.
They could make it so as soon as the killer gets 4 hooks in any combination, gen regression or blocking is no longer possible and Otzdarva would still win the majority of his games. But that would not be the experience for the majority of the playerbase.
But this video doesn't prove jack, though, does it?
Besides, if Otz can do it, why couldn't anyone else?
Because no game should be balanced around what the best players of the game are able to pull off. If you don't understand this, then… I don't know what to say that won't get me banned.
The fact he's getting flustered to the same degree he does when doing one of his Killer challenges on a regular match in the MMRless PTB is wild to me.