bunnyfengenthusiast
bunnyfengenthusiast
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Hangman's Trick
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@AverageKateMain said:
I don't mean to be rude but like what's the point in telling us this story? Many people actively hinder themselves for fun and get met with salt and bm. What's makes your experience so different and heart wrenching if literally everyone goes through this at least once to the point you create a post on the forums about it?
Spread awareness to the toxic survivor mains out there who are so starved for a win that they'll BM the few good killers left out there and incentivize them to play the "bad" way in the future to avoid the humiliation.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309580#Comment_3309580
Or you could just learn to make a concise argument instead of namedropping a 50,000 word essay and expecting me to read it; that's not only incredibly disingenuous, it's very entitled.
If you ask for the changes I would make and then don't read the changes because they're too long for you, then you're the entitled one. I answered your question with an in-depth list, and just because you find reading difficult doesn't mean I'm entitled for expecting the bare minimum in response.
I've already addressed a portion of the changes I've read, relevant to one of the killers being discussed, and I outlined specifically why it was a bad suggestion. Again, your entitlement is through the roof if you think "if you didn't provide a breakdown of why my novel is wrong, I won't respond" is a proper counter argument.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309558#Comment_3309558
If you expect me to read a novel sized list of suggestions and piece it apart, you got the wrong guy.
Then don't ask for what I would change, if you're not actually interested in what I would change about those specific characters. Tells me everything I need to know.
Or you could just learn to make a concise argument instead of namedropping a 50,000 word essay and expecting me to read it; that's not only incredibly disingenuous, it's very entitled. If you can't make an elevator pitch for the changes you would like to see, then go around criticizing devs for vague failures that you perceive (without providing any empirical evidence of the existence of these failures), then you have no business discussing the balance of this game.
@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309544#Comment_3309544
You're not going to tell me that saddeko is among the top of the killers cause of 1 playstyle that needs specific addons to work well and only really caught traction months after she was released
No, but I am going to tell you that Sadako is among the top of the killers for kill rate, an arbitrary metric that has no real use to us as players because both kills do not equal skill and because there's much more to the game than just killing/escaping, and because there is likely a very dedicated group of Sadako players who are very good at regular M1 gameplay, which is essentially what she is- just a regular M1 killer.
Or are Sadako, Pinhead, and Wesker just better killers than Nurse and Blight, with Nurse having been the best killer in DBD by a landslide since her release in August of 2016. Is Plague actually the 2nd best killer in the game (again behind Wesker) and Artist is actually weaker than Freddy and Myers?
Or do just kill rates alone tell us, as players, nothing without any further emperical data to back it up?
I mean, all metrics are by definition arbitrary in DBD. What better metric would YOU use to measure out the power level of a killer, if not the literal percentage at which they're able to successfully complete their primary objective?
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If you expect me to read a novel sized list of suggestions and piece it apart, you got the wrong guy. That said, I briefly glossed over it. Some of the changes I saw were incredibly deluded. Sadako moving faster than MDR Spirit after a projection? Sadako getting one stack of condemned per M1 after a manifestation/projection? Combined with faster teleport AND infinite killer instinct? Don't make me laugh.
@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309516#Comment_3309516
Festering carrion being base would help add on variety, as people would feel less forced to run it. It's the same logic as making toy sword base kit for twins - literally every twins runs it so making it base is only beneficial to their add on variety. I would not mind a matias shoes nerf/rework, however every other add on is either fine or weak, so basekit carrion would not be an issue.
The only time dredge without calendar is even remotely feasable is if you run a 3 gen and get specific locks out of the way at the start of the match, which massively limits his playstyles and makes aggressive plays near impossible. Plus his mobility doesn't need a counter (locks) in the first place since locker spawns are RNG and exhaustion perks exist.
I disagree completely, not having open locker priority is a completely braindead mechanic.
also Idk what game you're playing if you think sadako is in a good place when her only remotely decent playstyle requires an iri and a snoozefest strategy, any other playstyle and she's bottom of the barrel for viability and gets predropped into oblivion.
Iri tape is by no means required for Sadako, although I would like to see the default projection cooldown dropped. Artist has a ton of strong/useful addons. You're not required to use Carrion, but running around without it makes it harder to get snipes, changing your playstyle, or basically what addons are supposed to do.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309482#Comment_3309482
So you mean to tell me that Artist, Sadako, and Dredge- all of which are very polarising killers and two of whom (Sadako and Dredge) a large portion of the community have called weak- Sadako more than Dredge- are all actually perfectly balanced killers, and were released in a perfect state?
Despite Sadako's ongoing VFX issues with those with photosensitivity, Dredge being literally impossible for myself and other players to deal with without causing immense headaches (to the point where I had to get prescription-level pain killers by my desk just in case I faced a Dredge, when I haven't needed them in over a deacade prior to that), and Artist being called "boring" and "dull" by Survivor and Killer players alike, they're perfect? Despite Dredge being an Anniversary chapter with a very slim playerbase, Sadako only really having one playstyle that puts everyone involved to sleep, and Artist having approximately one and a half good add-ons, they're all perfect?
Sure.
What would I do? Read here.
The single biggest change I would make for Dredge is map locker availability, where some maps are barren, whereas others have far too many (Midwich). No offense but if you can't play as him, that's not an issue with the game. I have friends that can't play killer because the FPPOV gives them nausea. Should killers get the option of a TPPOV?
Sadako doesn't HAVE to play condemned only. You have the option of using her condemned as a slowdown.
Who ever called Artist dull and boring? Killers calling Artist dull? As opposed to Freddy, Legion, or any other simple killer with no power specific skill ceiling? Artist hS one and a half good addons? Have you ever played her?
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309482#Comment_3309482
Artist should get festering carrion base kit, alongside add on changes (mainly buffs).
Dredge needs some form of haddies calendar base kit, faster ms when holding remnant, and unlocked locker priority for locker groups.
Sadako needs so many buffs I'm too tired to list them all.
Artist absolutely does not need Festering Carrion basekit, considering it is her strongest addon. I'm a p60+ Artist with more games on her than I care to count, being able to run Matias Shoes+Severed Hands/Thick Tar/any of her other addons with Festering Carrion basekit would be busted as hell. She's extremely powerful as is.
Dredge doesn't need basekit to counter one of his few counters, nor does he need open locker priority, as that's one of his counterplays.
Sadako could use a little love but is in a very good place currently. I made a thread about this a while back, but she's not in as dire changes as Nurse, Twins, or even Freddy.
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I'm hoping there's more that hasn't been discussed in the blog, like perk changes (namely Eruption), but I'm optimistic.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309400#Comment_3309400
"and as usual" Im confused. There were no changes to sadako, dredge, artist, or wesker (if i remember correctly) after their release.
Why were these killers excluded from the usual killer balancing but not knight?
@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309400#Comment_3309400
Out of pure curiosity, what happened to the post-release changes for Artist, Sadako, and Dredge?
Not every killer is released underpowered or overpowered. Since everyone is a critic, what changes would you make for those killers? Artist is one of my mains, along with Sadako and Dredge.
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@Peanits said:
At no point did we say that it is the only survivor sided map, we simply confirmed what others have been saying and outlined the work we've done to address this one. By no means is it the only one. You can make a case for just about any map favouring one side or the other.
As for the Killer changes, The Nurse has easily been the single most discussed Killer lately and warranted changes over any other Killer. The Knight was only recently released and as usual, we make changes to the most recent Killer in the following updates to try and fine tune their balance. They were definitely not chosen at random. Other Killers have changed planned, but there's only so much bandwidth for changes in each update.
This is a more constructive response than was deserved by the reading comprehension-lacking OP.
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@Irisora said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309363#Comment_3309363
Which translate to, when she downs and hook around 4 times all gens are probably gonna pop.. She will be an M1 killer that have to deal with third health state without any instadown, and we all know what that means. She needed changes but this is killing her completely, they should at least reduce the blink recharge speed to compensate or not take away the range addons.
You mean like how Blight is underpowered because he has no instadown (outside Iri tag)?
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
People will still fail to win against her and yell for more nerfs.
Blink attacks being special attacks is BS, by the way. The Nurse literally can't attack normally, because she's slower than Survivors.
So it's more BHVR giving Survivors what they want while not even thinking about how the nerfs work in a real gameplay setting in the slightest. Kind of like how they nerfed her Blink to begin with, while forgetting (or ignoring) that it's not only her offensive power, but also how she moves around the map.
It's strictly untrue that Nurse can't M1 normally. Her lunge is very strong for closing distance if she manages to mindgame a player. Holding W away from a tile is asking to get hit. Staying within the tile means not using your faster movement speed.
The special attack nerf was 100% justified. Nurse has the single strongest chase power in the game, tying it to a basic attack was moronic. Exposed, sloppy, jolt, none of these should work, especially in an age where NOED, starstruck, devour, dragon's grip, and other similar things exist. Basekit nurse is already one of the strongest killers in the game, she needs little in terms of extra help. In fact, Spirit should be next for the special attack treatment. Imagine if Blight attacks worked with Exposed.
Also, even Range getting nerfed is overdue. Yes, even with her blinks, her aggregate speed is "slower" than 4.6. However, her blinks let her take a straight line path to her destination, regardless of obstacles. This alone makes her much more efficient at map traversal than any other killer, save for Blight on some maps.
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Aye, I've seen far too many bad killers get carried by Eruption procs/COB+Overcharge regression. Through sheer attrition and camping a 3-gen with these perks, they eventually create a dead zone large enough that they can secure two hits on any one of their 3-gens quickly enough and rack up the hook states until everyone is dead. It's gonna be a rough awakening when Eruption is inevitably nerfed into the ground.
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@RainehDaze said:
The sheer number of wall holes is a bit of silliness.
Porous walls are just plain terrible. Only the Killer tends to suffer (unless it's shooty harpoon gun man), but they're just... weird?
Aye, this is the worst part about shack by far imo. If a survivor is going the long way, they are entirely safe from mindgames. If you follow behind, they just chain into the window. If you try to cut them off, they can see you through the holes and just double back.
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Blessing absolutely triggers Haunted, but blessing Plaything counters Pentimento. That said, blessing takes 2x as long as cleansing a hex totem. I would like to see totem destruction upon snuffing be basekit though.
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Dear god no. Devour is already strong enough as it is. It's stupid to turn it into a mid-game NOED.
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@PrettyFaceKate said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3308085#Comment_3308085
In the context of hard camping, trading is contingent on the killer allowing it in a 1-man rescue. Otherwise, 2 survivors are required for the save. In which case, the gen downtime might not be worth it at all, as it's often seen with coordinated teams even in comp.
Fake it until you get M1'd then unhook. If they don't have STBFL (which if they're camping, they probably don't), you should be fine. Assuming it's not a instadown killer.
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@Entitled_survivor said:
Imagine shelter woods with nerfed shack,,NO
Imagine Shelter Woods in the first place. If a map becomes weaker if you nerf ONE tile, then it's an issue with the map, not the tile.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3308073#Comment_3308073
It's hook action, not hook stage, so Kinship is technically superior by two seconds if someone is camped from first hook to dead.
I do agree with you that Reassurance is better, though.
I'm aware, which is why I said CAN. You should never let a teammate go to 2nd hook anyways, it's better to trade when Reassurance ends.
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How is Kinship superior to Reassurance? Reassurance can add 30s per hook stage and is one of 16 perks. Kinship can stop struggle for 32s and is 4 of 16 perks if run across the team.
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@ButterFlee13 said:
As title said, which add on is the most op?
Me first, Uroboros Vial from Wesker. Act like corrupt intervention, great early game start for killer, give infomation. Very threaten for expose in mid and late game, lastly reducing the aid spray resources later in game as well. I think Wesker is really good and have high kill from this add on.
Uro vial ia strong but nowhere near OP. Most busted Iri addon would have to be MDR, C33 or Redhead pinky.
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Depends on the killer honestly. It has some very strong pallets, but they're few and far between and if you can get rid of them early on, you should have an easy game.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307257#Comment_3307257
Then you should really not expect to win.
I don't play placebo tablet expecting to win, I play placebo tablet expecting people to say gg and act cordial in post game considering I play without perks and with an addon that actively makes my power worse. The toxicity is what I take issue with, not the loss.
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@HugTechLover said:
It’s not that serious man, just have fun with blight. Throw on adrenaline vile and the crow and go for crazy flicks, hug techs, moonrushes, etc. Stop worrying about anything else and just learn blights endless skill ceiling. Once you get some really good experience, you can handle most SWF’s without addons or perks.
If you use placebo tablet with no perks, you're playing the worst version of Blight there is.
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Auto DH is already a cheat
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305554#Comment_3305554
The incap effect is literally the entire identity of the perk. I'm not a fan of eruption either but I value it as a unique entity and I'd see that preserved in some way.
If the identity of a perk lies around the most busted status effect in the game, then that perk's identity needs to be reevaluated.
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@Vampwire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305811#Comment_3305811
You're completely missing the point though. If the counter to DH is to just not do anything until it's gone, that is a problem. You can do a million fake outs, all you're doing is screwing yourself. Everything in this game has visual and audio ques, so saying it's impossible to reaction DH is just dumb.
I can promise you most of these killers waiting for DH is only going to miss them out on a down. I can tell you that as someone who plays Nemesis, you don't get the luxury of waiting. You don't whip them, they can dodge around. You do too early and they get another loop around. A lot of killers have to make really tight squeezes for their ability to hit. Those plays being completely nullified because of a button is terrible design. It nullifies killer skill.
Considering the recognition for Endurance is server-sided, and a lot of attacks are LITERALLY unreactable when you consider ping+reaction time, pretending that DH is something that you can use consistently and on reaction is an extremely unrealistic thing to say. I main killer, and I have no issues with DH despite going up against 4x DH 4x Adrenaline BNP commodius swfs every other game on my mains.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305811#Comment_3305811
Ah, the 1v1 cowshed challenge. A true classic.
How do you get 1v1 cowshed from "let's test your ability to react to an attack you claim is reactable"?
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305526#Comment_3305526
I'm gonna let all the wacky stuff you said here slide just to ask what the Christ are you talking about baiting out hatchets? You can DH them on reaction, there's no baiting required. They're big, slow projectiles.
That is demonstrably untrue. A fully charged hatchet at mid range is unreactable.
@Vampwire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305526#Comment_3305526
A few issues with this. Artist and Nurse don't really care about DH because their entire powers are "I don't have to play the game lmao". For the others, you can 100% use dead hard to force a losing scenario for them.
Trickster has to either wait longer to get the last throw, losing precious time for his laceration meter and potentially giving the survivors more time to reach safety. It also completely resets all the knives he's thrown which can be a big deal depending on the situation.
If you DH a nemesis whip at say a pallet, you not only get to speed away but they also have to go through their recovery and then break the pallet, basically doubling the distance you gain. With his limited range there's many times he cannot afford to just wait it out.
Oni has a good second or two to wait until he can do anything after stopping demon rush. So this also just means they're missing out on the down for the chance DH might come into play. Not to mention he's on a timer too.
Even though Blight can catch back up, he still has to recharge his tokens after using them. So waiting that awkward 5 seconds to cancel the rush, fatigue, and then start recharging is still a big time loss and generally bad play. 5 seconds might not sound like a lot, but in that time you can reach something while he's essentially stuck in place. You still give them the time to get away.
As other users said, Huntress is easily done in by DH due to the fact you can literally just wait until they throw it.
Whiffing is not a counter to it. That is basically admitting you just have to not hit them until you know its gone. Which has always been the issue with DH. You're forgetting that most killers still have to go through a lengthy cool-down which is almost worse because if they DONT dead hard, you have to repeat the process and extend the time chasing. The argument is in the same vein to saying the counter to a killer is to just not loop them/hide. The counter is to just not play against it.
Trickster can toss a knife in the air to force a DH. He doesn't have to wait it out.
Blight doesn't have to wait for fatigue, just rush past someone, bump past them, and rush back after they inevitably use DH.
Nemmy pre swinging at pallets is the cause for eating a DH. Fake the power at pallet or wait for the animation to swing.
Artist definitely cares about DH. As an artist main, eating a DH loses me a lot of time.
For anyone that says DH is reactable, I volunteer to do this experiment with you. We hop in a custom game, and you react to my hatchet with DH.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305187#Comment_3305187
How many Killers have a power that can down and comes out with no warning at point blank range? "Huntress and Trickster can throw things at that range" doesn't really count.
Overselling DH as balanced by 'difficulty' and 'skill' just leads back to the stupid balance point where you have a perk that is utterly broken and OP for more players as time goes on, and should therefore be balanced assuming its skill ceiling, not with the idea that 'well maybe, there's all the people who will DH and still into a wall'.
I mean, are we now specifically discussing killers using their power to down? Let's see. The killers that can down with their power are Billy, Nurse, Huntress, Bubba, Spirit, Plague, Oni, Pyramid Head, Blight, Twins, Trickster, Nemesis, Artist, Wesker, and Knight. Let's look at each individually.
Billy and Bubba should never use their chainsaw against an injured person, so they're out.
Huntress and Trickster can respectively hold projectile and toss a stray knife to bait out DH.
Nurse can blink once to bait DH and a second time to actually down.
Blight can bump through you to bait DH and back again to down.
Oni can cancel a Demon Rush on top of you and M1 normally to bait out a DH.
Spirit's power is unreactable if she uncloaks on top of you.
Twins can bait out DH by holding Victor braced before pouncing.
Nemesis can ready up tentacle and delay the use.
Artist can set up a bird to shut a loop and not shoot it immediately when they're within line of sight to avoid the DH.
The only ones that have a power that is relatively predictable to DH are Plague, Pyramid Head, Wesker, and Knight. Should we now do a breakdown of why other perks are equally as good, if not better than DH, against these killers?
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305115#Comment_3305115
... and with sufficient timing, DH lets you negate the hit of most Killer powers. About the only thing it doesn't any more is Trapper's traps.
"Maybe you can bait it out" only goes so far when some people get really good at using it with perfect timing. Which, again, is bad balance. Things should not be balanced around how hard they are to use. This goes for Dead Hard, this goes for Hyperfocus, it goes for Nurse if anyone can ever actually work out how to go about dealing with her.
"sufficient timing" is an unrealistic standard. If a killer is at kissing range from you, you cannot react in time to their M1. Again, the only guaranteed situation where DH gives guaranteed value is around a pallet.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304816#Comment_3304816
Because DH can still be used to skip powers, doesn't have a limiting factor that requires you to avoid just running straight to the nearest loop/pallet/window at full speed, and when you DO need it, good timing is always a third health state. Good Sprint Burst usage can lengthen a chase... but if you don't use it right away, that's limiting yourself. Balanced Landing needs a drop. Head On is locker shenanigans. Overcome is a really nice speed boost, but if you can't make use of it after getting whacked by knowing the map, it does nothing.
DH is basically a perfect escape if you can time it, and if you CAN triggers all sorts of cooldowns on the Killer end. That also makes it nastily counter things that might deal with SB or other ways of making up ground.
Almost any killer I can think of with powers has counterplay to DH. Blight and Nurse can both blink/rush past and wait it out. Huntress can keep hatchet at the ready, Trickster can toss a knife at the air, etc.
Again, my feeling is that the universality of DH is counterbalanced by its difficulty of use. The only situation where killer has no agency is the one outlined in the OP (DH into pallet) which can be turned into a 50/50 with OP suggestion.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304728#Comment_3304728
How's current DH different than if you could use DS on every single chase, ie potentially even more than 3 times?
Only argument I can see here is that DH actually takes skill. So if the survivor is skilled enough he should get a DS on every chase? Is that balanced?
I'd actually argue most Exhaustion perks need longer exhaustion debuffs as well if we're gonna compare them. Bar maybe BL or Head On since they're much more situational.
Why would you ever not a run an exhaustion perk if you just wanted to win? The answer is never, and that should tell you they're over tuned. Nothing should ever be a guaranteed auto lock like exhaustion perks currently are.
Simple. Counterplay to DH is waiting it out. Counterplay to DS is waiting out the full 60 seconds to not get hit by it. If you fake an M1 and they DH early, they're exhausted. If you swing and whiff on purpose and they DH, they're exhausted. Killer has actual counterplay to DH, whereas there is none to DS beside just wait it out or eat the stun. Keep in mind that the exhaustion that DH causes prevents the player from using any other chase-extending exhaustion perks, like Lithe, 99 SB, or Balanced. In this regard, how is DH different than any other chase-extending exhaustion perk, and why are you making a special exception for DH?
@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304728#Comment_3304728
"This perk is hard to use" is not a balance argument.
You cannot balance an optional extra around the difficulty of using it 'correctly', because then the people who get good at using it are disproportionately rewarded: the perk they have is now completely broken, whilst it's useless for anyone who's bad with it. †
All you can do is look at how it performs once you get good enough, which in this case is a once a chase third health state, especially when the map favours getting to a pallet or a window. It's even worse if you accept the possibility of a reaction DH.
A perk that adds another health state and 15-30s or more of chase time when used competently, requiring the Killer to develop prescience in many cases, is not balanced if it can be used 9 times a match. At its most conservative, that's over two minutes of extra chase time. Without regression, that's enough for 1/4 of the total required gen time (and ignoring that for much of the match that 15s might by 45s of gen progress).
† This is also kind of the problem with Nurse, except her power is so fundamentally out of step with the rest of the game it's a forever long slog to work out how it COULD be made more balanced without destroying the character's entire feel and gimmick.
How is Dead Hard, which will only situationally give value by extending a chase, less balanced than, say, Sprint Burst, which gives constant value throughout the match in the form of speed boosts, as well as extending a chase if used mid-chase, or any other exhaustion perk that also extend a chase (without the requirement to have a pallet at the ready at the perfect distance with perfect timing to guarantee the DH use)?
@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304728#Comment_3304728
It would still be the strongest exhaustion perk. A single well timed Dead Hard can turn the entire game around.
Give me a single example.
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@Blueberry said:
Honestly I saw another popular streamer mention an idea that was pretty good.
Essentially you can use DH as much as you want just like now, except once it blocks a hit it deactivates for the rest of the trial. So you essentially get 1 blocked hit out of it.
Now that may sound extreme, but good players know how actually valuable an entire third health state is. That's essentially a DS for you. Lots of people would still run this, that's how good it still would be,
This would literally turn it into the single worst exhaustion perk in the game. Every other exhaustion perk can get you guaranteed value, except for arguably Smash Hit. Turning DH, which is already difficult to use with ping shenanigans, into a once-a-game thing would be ridiculous. DH is fine as it is, I wouldn't be opposed to the OP's suggestion, as it turns pallets into a 50/50 instead of a guaranteed escape for a survivor.
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@SpaghettiYOLO said:
The Incapacitated used to be 16 seconds and it was worthless. The only change it should get is the effect can only be applied for 45 seconds to a gen. If you don't down somebody in that time, then the effect is gone. If it procs, then it enters cooldown.
It was never worthless. Not even back then. The meta simply changed from Ruin Undying to gen kicking, and current Eruption got overtuned far too much in an attempt to incentivize moving away from passive reg. It simply synergizes too much with other strong gen kicking perks, and is too strong on its own accord. 16 seconds is a long time. 25 seconds is an even longer time. Incapacitated is too strong of a status effect and needs a hard nerf.
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@CheesyBabyBoi said:
honestly its old meta people just didnt care enough
BUT, having aura invisible for duration AND endurance set, for 80 Seconds?? too much.
+ The way endurance is put here, it sounds like if you heal the deep wound before you're hit again, and the timer is still running, you can take as many hits as you can recover from while the perk is active, which is dumb
+ the perk is an infinite counter to other aura-counter perks, like Undying or Shattered Hope, and thats also dumb
so far thats two(2) dumb things which is one dumb thing too many. My proposals:
~ Disable the whole perk after getting hit by a killer and/or an attempt at revealing their aura, notwithstanding the actual attempt(your aura is hidden from the killer ONCE; you are saved with endurance ONCE)
~ The same as the previous but the different bonuses are set into different sets, so you can have your aura hidden once and you retain endurance--vice versa
~ Replace one of the relevant bonuses with something like 5% speed boost that lasts duration, immediate removal of negative effects (or just exhausted, or whatever) and/or remove blood trails for duration, all of which honestly seem more appropriate for something called 'Off the Record' anyway, instead of endurance which is "Once you get back ON the record, youre protected because youre supposed to be OFF The-- whatever you get it i dont like it
+ OH Also dumb thing #3: this perk is set so if you get hooked, either you die, or it activates for free and nothing stops it except the objectives are completed, which is the one thing the perk grants you to be able to do; complete the objectives unhindered, after which the perk becomes practically useless anyway.
AND fun fact running this perk makes something like Borrowed Time just completely irrelevant which is dumb so it should be changed at least for that
~ So make it more complicated or special scenario for this perk to be activated, like maybe when rescued from your second hook only, or only if the killer is a certain distance away, or you have to dismantle a totem and only after you do so does it activate on unhook, some way so that it isnt guaranteed every time no matter what; maybe if you do a certain thing like be the one to complete a generator, or cleanse, or heal other survivors for any or certain percent that it immediately disables the perk forever--WHICH would be cOOL to also disable the perk while its active! genius
oh also if youre cool with just letting the meta be the meta for a phat minute i guess thats okay, but the megamax tryhard swf team had 4 stack of OTR so its up there
OTR gets 0 value if the killer doesn't tunnel, which it's a perk specifically designed to prevent tunneling. So just... Don't tunnel.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Eruption is not busted lol, its actually well balanced and really fair. It have a setup phase, and its 25 seconds, get over it, really.
I dont think i have ever lost a match to eruption, it have been prolonged... yes.
but hey, that is the purpose of anti gen perks.
It blows my mind that people think any part of this post has proper argumentation to back it up. "25 seconds isn't even that long" is demonstrably untrue. 25 seconds is nearly 1/3rd of a gen.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302641#Comment_3302641
Shrug. Once everyone gets back in and 2023 is properly underway, I'll happily hold you to that - I'm sure I can find a few 2000 hour folks who'd even be happy to upload the video after.
EDIT: As I'm typing this, I've got 2 already who'd be keen. NA, right?
You can all decide on the killer and the map at the time.
There was no 'constructive' part of that post mate. It was hyperbole, exaggeration, false claims and then a demand to completely gut the perk...basically because you have a vendetta here. You lost to something, got annoyed and now want to...I guess punish people for using it? And yes, you did give both 'feedback' and 'suggestions', especially this part:
"Eruption needs to be nerfed into the ground"
Again - vendetta. You aren't looking to reign an overpowered perk in while keeping it viable, you're looking to take something nice away from people because you have a chip on your shoulder.
And no, 'pressuring an area' isn't camping a 3gen. For the...fourth time now - if they are sitting there and not chasing anyone, then that's a hostage game. If they are chasing, then you can bust the 3gen.
Aye, NA.
What part of my post was hyperbole? Am I wrong that Deadlock locks a single gen for 30 seconds, whereas Eruption inflicts incapacitated for 25 seconds on every person working on an Erupted gen? Am I wrong that every erupted gen loses 10% progress, as opposed to the 15% from Pain Res on one gen? Am I wrong that the gen continues to tick down while you're helplessly staring at it, unable to heal or do anything productive?
And yeah, I have a vendetta. I'm tired of going up against Eruption every game I decide to play as survivor, against killers sitting in comfy 3-gens, trying their absolute hardest to tunnel someone out early, or at least camp them in the safety of their 3-gen. I'm tired of having to dodge using this perk because of how brainless it makes any killer game I decide to use it on. But that's not what this discussion is about.
Eruption isn't just something "nice". Something nice is Pain Res. It's a balanced perk, with counterplay, that rewards a killer for a down with a hook, and can be anticipated and counterplayed (the info aspect of it, at least) by getting off a gen right before a hook, which is visible to all players in the game, unless inflicted by Blindness. Eruption is simply far too powerful, mathematically and practically.
You keep making this false dichotomy where a killer is either in chase or pressuring a 3-gen. That's not how this game works, at all. Besides, assuming an area is deadzoned enough, a killer can secure a hit within 10 seconds of pressuring someone off a gen, go back to kick it, and still hold pressure over the rest of the 3-gen with little effort.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302620#Comment_3302620
If you're not making an effort to chase and just stalling, then yes - it's bannable. If you are chasing and downing people, then it's not, and then there is room for counterplay.
And yes, it's a QQ thread. There's nothing constructive at all.
Your title was basically 'eruption is the most OP perk ever in the game' and claiming. You make no effort to suggest how to fix things, or how to balance the perk - you straight up say that you want it completely destroyed and made non-viable.
That's not feedback. That's 'rarr this thing makes me angry so I want it destroyed completely'.
I wonder how disconnected your mind must be to think that pressuring an area and chasing are two independent actions that happen in sectioned off bubbles.
The constructive part was the breakdown of the mechanical function of Eruption as compared to perks that are similar and an explanation on how Eruption is far superior. I'm not providing a suggestion, as this thread is under general discussions, not feedback and suggestions.
I'd love to play against you and three of your buddies while I'm running Eruption so I can slap the smug out of you.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302596#Comment_3302596
Sigh. Nice little ad hom - but I'm talking not only about my own likely intermediate MMR, but watching a variety of streams and videos of higher MMR players, such as JRM, Otz, Ayrun and the CC. They get 3genned sometimes, and they generally bust it pretty fast.
But what the hell, let's try again. Going point by point.
- Shrug. If he's simply not leaving the area, see what I said earlier. Otherwise...honestly, same.
- To repeat: if he's staking out a 3gen at the start of the match and literally not leaving the 3gen, chasing etc. then it's a hostage situation. He's not playing the game, he's stalling it out. If he is chasing, then you can have one person leading them off, giving other openings to coordinate and force down gens.
- If you're getting chased and then downed, then he's not guarding that 3gen.
- PE requires having a SWF, so you have teammates to run interference. PE is the answer to the 3gens. And this game cannot be balanced around solo queue.
- Bum rush doesn't mean suicide run. And in this case, everyone can clearly see you and can release. Escalate pressure from multiple angles and over multiple gens.
- You seem to have discovered a mysterious killer that's simultaneously never leaving a 3gen and chasing people to down them, which is a pretty damn impressive feat. I don't think even Twins can pull this off.
- No, this thread - if you want to be pedantic - is about how Eruption is literally the most broken perk in the history of the entire game, which people have already explained to you over multiple pages is provably false.
- Is Eruption a bit much at present? Sure. But let's get real here - if they give it a slight nerf, and make it work on hooking instead of downing, it won't put a dent in this little wall of QQ. So they nerf it to uselessness as per Thana and Ruin, and the forum QQ train just moves onto the next killer perk they lost to. Because that's what always happens.
- I'm tempted to say - let's give Eruption the damn Dead Hard treatment! Give people a few years to play around it and figure it out, then maybe nerf it. Slightly.
- Or, rather than making these ridiculously hyperbolic QQ threads, we suggest ways of making the perk a bit easier to counter while keeping it viable. Except we both know - that's not the goal here, is it?
For someone smugly calling a thread discussing a busted perk a "QQ thread", it's ironic you would claim ad hominem about the comments on your demonstrated lack of context but I digress.
Do you genuinely believe that if I'm proxy camping a 3 gen, that I'm doing something bannable? Because if so, you are SORELY mistaken my man.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302556#Comment_3302556
We aren't talking about 'holding a 3 gen', because that's just tactical and 99% of the time the survivors set themselves up for it. This is a situation with multiple possible counters - bait the killer off, use perks, bum rush etc.
We're talking about staking out a 3gen from the start and never leave it, or actively chasing anyone. Just stalling things out. That's a situation where there is basically no solution - the example Peanits gave was of a Doctor using shocks to do this.
Also - that's such a hilarious false equivalency that I'm honestly not sure if you're being serious or if I'm being baited again. We aren't talking about being cheesy or being tactical. We're talking about holding games hostage.
99% of the time the survivors set themselves up for it
This is how I know you're in low MMR, or you have no idea what you're talking about. A killer pressuring an area and forcing the survivors to go work on different gens while protecting a 3-gen isn't "a survivor setting themselves up for it". It's a killer pushing people off their 3-gen.
bait the killer off
Killers holding a 3-gen won't leave it is the point of a 3-gen.
use perks
Potential Energy loses all stacks when hit and needs to be set up on a gen before being used (not to mention being only 20% per person), and Prove still needs a time commitment.
bum rush
This is how you get downed, forcing an Eruption proc and giving killer a hook in 3-gen.
We're talking about staking out a 3gen from the start and never leave it, or actively chasing anyone. Just stalling things out. That's a situation where there is basically no solution - the example Peanits gave was of a Doctor using shocks to do this.
So you're moving goalposts. This whole thread has been about discussing Eruption, and its potential at holding a 3-gen. No one holds a 3-gen while ignoring survivors entirely, and doing so is throwing.
Also - that's such a hilarious false equivalency that I'm honestly not sure if you're being serious or if I'm being baited again. We aren't talking about being cheesy or being tactical. We're talking about holding games hostage.
No, YOU'RE talking about holding games hostage. We're talking about Eruption and how absurd it makes the already absurd and stale 3-gen strat.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302533#Comment_3302533
You'll have to look through the recent Red posts (the old forums had a way to view dev posts, but I can't find it on the new ones - Peanits, if I recall), but they confirmed that staking out a 3gen and not leaving it, or killing anyone to basically force the timer to run out can definitely count as taking the game hostage - pretty recently at that. Because there's no way for the survivors to end it without DCing.
I know you have a personal axe to grind here, but there is a difference between the survivors 3genning themselves and the killer abusing game mechanics to stall things out indefinitely by never leaving or chasing, and instead just holding those gens.
If someone does this, and it's not just a situation of a team 3genning themselves, record and report.
If it's a killer doing this tactically to win, you'll either need to bum rush the 3gen (I literally just won a game in solo queue where a Pyramid Head tried this, and eventually we wore him down) or coordinate with your teammates. If it keeps happening to you, run Potential Energy.
We can't rebalance the entire game because of what is basically an exploit any more than we can do this around solo queue.
I'm gonna need to see a post by a dev that specifically states that holding a 3-gen is bannable, because that's literally the most common killer strategy at high MMR, and even in tournaments. Survivors are still able to actively progress towards the endgame by working on gens in a 3-gen, meaning the game is, by definition, not held hostage since the other team can make progress. If it's two people left and you're holding a 3-gen, then it's a different scenario.
EDIT: also, abusing game mechanics sounds an awful lot like tunneling (abusing the mechanic that allows a person to die early and leave the other 3 in a near impossible to win situation) and camping (abusing the mechanic that allows killer to wait out someone's hook timer and force a kill).
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302514#Comment_3302514
They are just stalling the game out deliberately to try to hit the timer? You record and report, because it's taking the game hostage. Much as when the last two survivors use the item drop trick to avoid AFK crows and stall the game out by hiding in lockers forever.
Plenty of people have already explained it to you in this thread - most of the time, a 3gen is self inflicted. If a killer is creating a hostage situation, that's another issue - and not one related to balance.
This can be done with a variety of perks, depending on what killer you're playing.
This isn't Boil Over, where the perk itself allows you to troll games. It's just an unfortunate abuse of game mechanics.
Taking the game hostage is taking an action that is deliberately preventing the game from advancing in a way that's not defending an objective (aka bodyblocking last person alive in a corner). Camping a 3-gen is a valid strategy, that doesn't ACTIVELY prevent the game from advancing, and is an optimal strategy to protect the objective while the survivors still have a chance to do it. It's idiotic to claim, or even assume, that 3-genning is a bannable offense. By that rationale, using reg perks is bannable because it stalls the game and takes the game hostage.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
I am not an "Eruption Apologist" by any means (it's miserable to face in solo queue, and needs heavy tweaking for sure), but to even insinuate that that it's the most busted perk ever is a case study in recency bias. It's laughable.
I won't name others because they have already been named multiple times in this thread, but Eruption wouldn't crack my top 10 (maybe even top 15) most infuriatingly busted perks ever. DBD's history is loaded with perks that were disgustingly broken for periods of time (sometimes years). Eruption is just the latest flavor of the month.
As for the 3 gen angle to the argument, as has been said 90%+ of the time a lockdown three gen is a bed the survs had made for themselves; Eruption just pulls the blankets a little tighter when the killer makes them lie in it. You're not entitled to a mulligan on your poor play.
What do you do when a killer is forcing a 3 gen by camping a specific part of the map and not leaving it? If you commit to the 3 gen early enough, you're still at 3-4-5 gens left and you're giving free downs/hook states. If you do the gens, then you're stuck with a 3 gen. I feel like all the people that keep saying "well 3 gen is something you do to yourself" have never played against an actual sweaty killer in high MMR. There's a big difference between 3 genning yourself and dealing with a forced 3 gen.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302421#Comment_3302421
You described working around CoB and Overcharge, not Eruption. Chasing and downing a survivor is not this monumental task that consistently takes 60+ seconds.
Aye, the cognitive dissonance is unreal. Assuming the area immediately around a gen is deadzoned from a 30+ minute game, a 10 second chase is all it takes to slap someone on an M1 killer. At which point they have to go reset, meaning two people are stuck with a 16 second heal assuming no boon, or one person self caring for 32 seconds in a boon. At which point COB overcharge is doing work and the other gen gets pressured. Once a down happens, anyone who happened to be on a gen gets locked off and the gen ticks down helplessly in front of them. The gen kicking meta is by far the most stale meta I've ever seen.
I find it funny that Eruption apologists fail to address the fact it's mathematically superior to dedicated perks in one of three categories it dominates at the same time. They make a special exception for why the perk is easy to deal with (killer is playing a M1 killer with no chase power, survivors are hitting every skill check, survivors are on comms, survivors play perfectly, 3 gen has recyclable loops next to it etc.).
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301818#Comment_3301818
If they fully commit and survivors don't pre run away from the 3 gens. As long as you pressure two gens, most killers cannot deal with it.
Define most killers, because it sounds like you're talking about bottom tier killers. Any killer with any semblance of a chase power can hold a 3 gen very successfully. Other killers like Knight can pressure a very generous 3 gen. Strong chase killers can secure a down on a pressured gen assuming they've managed to deadzone the area around it. This is, of course, assuming survivors hit every single Overcharge check, and having to hit one every 20 seconds can quickly wear you down.
@TigerSnake said:
Calling other perks “less busted” than Eruption is just classic looking through the past with rose tinted glasses at its finest. Nerfing it into the ground is a horrendous idea cause the perk absolutely does not deserve to go back into complete worthlessness like it was before. Just lower the Incapacitation duration and we’re good.
My main issue is the perk shouldn't excel in 3 separate categories over perks that specialize in one of those categories. It shouldn't be a better slowdown than Deadlock, it shouldn't be a better reg than Pain Res, it shouldn't be a better info than Tremors.
@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301672#Comment_3301672
Weak killers can't afford to kick gens. Strong killers don't need gen perks to win.
If the killer is both downing people left and right and has all this time to kick gens survivors are actively contesting, it's a skill issue.
Weak killers are the ones that need to kick gens the most, and even the weakest killers in the game can be carried by the COB Overcharge Eruption trinity and a 3 gen.
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@Mr_K said:
Last I checked, eruption requires the killer to down a survivor to activate. One of the biggest complants I've seen is with three gens. How is the killer spending time chasing a survivor through two health states while the other three can complete a gen from 0 in 50 seconds?
Besides a few killers that can passively injure survivors, maybe stop being greedy and run away when the killer starts coming your way. Have the killer juggle gens 1 and 3 without getting any hits.
If you half commit to chases long enough, you eventually deadzone the area around your 3 gen. At which point getting a down takes maybe 20-30 seconds if you full commit.
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@Chaos999 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301766#Comment_3301766
Honestly I can't be bothered to go stop to kick a Gen. I would rather overwhelm the survivors by chasing and hooking and shred through resources.
The times I did try eruption I found that the extra time I took to get value out of it gave survivors time to be in a stronger position and even extend chases enough for the Gen I kicked to get finished.
I just don't think it's that good overall, but people think it is.
It certainly is awesome against very new players with sub 20 second chases, but those players will loose to anything.
Then you're one of the few people that seem to still play this game for fun instead of for winning. The fun part of this game is the chase, not pressing Spacebar on gens and half committing until you get an easy down or someone DCs, and yet it seems like that's all killers are doing nowadays.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301740#Comment_3301740
So basically nobody is allowed to do a gen before the killer gets a down? That doesn't really seem fun for the survivors if they literally have to wait for the killer to do things before they can do thier objective.
If you consider that having 4 open gens "not being able to do a gen", then yeah, no one can do a gen until killer gets a down.
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@Chaos999 said:
I must be doing something wrong because as killer I just find eruption... Not that useful... I prefer pain resonance as my regresion perk along with my standard bamboozle, enduring and spirit fury.
With Eruption, the gameplan is to kick every single gen you see. Then you win. You can also hold a 3 gen brainlessly by just kicking every gen and half committing to a chase until you get a down.