Xernoton
Xernoton
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617231#Comment_3617231
This 1 second was reason to nerf MfT tho? 1 second can make so much difference. Survivor can make it to pallet or vault.
MFT didn't make a 1 second difference. It was a lot more than that. It took the killer 20% longer to catch up and then still worked in loops. That was simply too much.
That 1 second after a hit is negligible. You make it to the next loop and that's it. You don't get to the loop after that and you don't just barely make that vault. You get to the next loop and now the second half of the chase starts. The effect of STBFL is to prevent a survivor from cherry picking their preferred structure. That happened pre 6.1.0 and that still happens now.
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@dance said:
I'll leave a question here: For you, what makes The Tricksters so miserable or unfun to play against?
Since his rework, we've been collecting feedback on how he feels, and we do want to know from both sides, Killers and Survivors. I'm happy to listen to as much constructive feedback on how you feel facing against him as you (and any Survivor player) wants to share. Are there specific parts of his rework that you dislike or are frustrating to play against? Something that you feel was overturned and worked better pre-update 7.4.0 (or the fixes since then)?
Respectfully, let me leave a question for you: "Why do you think Trickster was so miserable to play against before his rework and what was changed to make him more pleasent?"
The burden of proof lies with the one making a claim. And the claim was that Trickster was changed to make him more enjoyable to play against.
Personally, I think he feels even worse to play against than he did before. Before the rework, you had to use his slow speed against him, so that he wouldn't be able to hit you around tall loops. Now that he moves at normal speed this is less of an option, so he will hit you more often. That doesn't necessarily mean he is much stronger (though he is), considering that he needs to hit more blades now but it makes him even less pleasent to play against.
Nobody likes feeling like they lose at every turn and this is what Trickster does. He hits you again and again and again with little counterplay around short loops. Even if he had to hit you 15 times before you lose a health state, that feeling would persist.
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@o7o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616937#Comment_3616937
Not because it's oppressive, because of M2 killers that are too lazy to learn their power and rather rely on STBFL instead, or hold their M2 scared to hit someone to save stacks.
Why would that be a problem? They waste a perk slot and then don't use their power when they should, which wastes a lot of time because M2 attacks can get hits much easier than M1s.
Are you going to tell me, that a killer nerfing themself is too oppressive?
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616845#Comment_3616845
Nah, i disagree. STBFL was already insanely good perk. But after 2 stacks added to killer basekit, now it feels overtuned. They need to bring it to old version.
The difference is 0.18 seconds of the killer moving at 2.7 m/s. Meaning it's only a difference of 0.486 m in what distance a survivor makes after a hit. So the time it takes for the killer to cover that extra ground is less than 1 second. But because you will already be in a loop, that 1 second is negligible.
You still get to the next loop and have to play around it. This is the effect STBFL had before 6.1.0 and it's the effect that STBFL has now.
I'm not against this nerf. It would make no difference whatsoever. But I don't like the idea of nerfing weaker killers in any way.
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@egg_ said:
But yeah not surprised to see billy as a "well designed killer", he's literally the most loopable killer in the whole game
But hey guys uwu it's billy haha he just bumped for the 44th time in a row while trying to get that curve on me he threw the game and got 1 stage total so quirky I had so much fun 😊 (golden standard btw)
It's not so bad. I mostly get 2 hook stages.
But you're right that he wouldn't be considered that fun to play against, if he was actually strong. Or at least not quite so easy to counter.
@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617010#Comment_3617010
To be perfectly honest, i dont care what your personal opinion on that matter or those killers is. Its totally irrelevant. I trust more in votes, done by thousends of people. And they say those killers ARE the golden standard, if you like it or not. Add Oni and it is almost certaint that they will be overall be in the top 10/top 15 at least. They are never near the bottom, completly in contast to the "modern killers" i named.
What votes? The votes of how fun killers are to play or to play against? Billy is a perfect example of a killer that is fun to play against but miserable to play as for most players.
Why do you think, you don't see any Billy players other than total beginners and the few Billy mains out there? He is not fun for the rest. Indoor maps counter your mobility and have few curvable loops. Outdoor maps nowadays have so much clutter that his mobility is still pretty bad compared to other killers and curving requires at least 1 Engraving because the survivor always makes it around the next corner otherwise. Even with an Engraving all a survivor needs to do, is to step out of the way. They can easily react.
The only reason why many players like to play against Billy is because they can counter his ability in their sleep. I had an Adam not so long ago, that went on about how fun the match was for him and how the chase was so close, when in reality it was all a bluff. I knew I couldn't hit him, if he played somewhat alright (not even good). But he didn't. So he was under the illusion that both of us played really well and he just outplayed me, while I knew that I could not hit him around shack, jungle gyms, the main building and a good amount of filler pallets simply because my power didn't allow that. It's even worse when you have survivors that actually know Billy's weaknesses. Like how he can be countered at the press of a single button.
Billy is a killer that looks dangerous more than anything else at this point. His mobility is pretty mediocre, his chase power doesn't work without engravings, he feels awful to play (incredibly loud, no room for mistakes, addon reliant, perk reliant and map reliant), has about the easiest counterplay of any killer in the game (one step to the side and you're safe), he can't play around many loops, he can't play around dropped pallets and he can't do anything unexpected. But he does have an insta down, mobility and faster pallet break, so it feels as if you actually were in a dangerous position in chase.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616957#Comment_3616957
I could see it yeah if you're using double range. I've made topics about it before but it's crazy to me how rare PH is in relation to how strong they are but then again so are a lot of killers.
Strong doesn't always equate to pleasent and fun to play. PH is quite clunky and a good bit of his strength comes from his ability to tunnel more efficiently than anyone else.
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Nerf Artist!!!! Artist op! So unfair!
Here you go, mate.
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I agree with @Firellius.
DBD is not a RE entry. If I wanted more RE content, then I'd play RE.
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If there is no proof, then you're not getting banned. I was falsely accused (and probably reported too) of cheating before. Multiple times.
But so far, I haven't been banned and I am not worried about it. I don't have anything on my computer that would temper with the game files and there cannot be any evidence of me cheating because I haven't done that.
It's likely that many of us have been wrong about someone cheating before (I know I have because a perk description was false) and BHVR would know that. So taking someone's word without any clear evidence would be a big risk for them as it would potentially lead to quite a few players getting banned over nothing.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615905#Comment_3615905
What makes me weird?! XD
I swear I’m not biased. Lol
I love blight, but I play all killers and play a ton of survivor too!
I'm not convinced, friend. Blight mains consume the strangest things and after that toilet cake incident...
Let's just say you're in good company with the rest of all the weird people here. Not me though, I'm not weird. Stop calling me weird!
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616196#Comment_3616196
That's the point, OP is wondering what Styptic would be like if it were adjusted so you don't necessarily need to be healing, that there could be an activation button instead to instantly pop it
Ahh. Ok, I didn't quite get that. I thought they were asking, if it would be good to use a Styptic Agent in that way.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616182#Comment_3616182
They said anti-loop, though, not chase. Ghosty, Meyers, even Wraith, don't have anti-loop.
Let me rephrase it then: "Even that can be considered an anti loop power."
Myers has the ability to vault faster and lunge further, which should not be ignored. It's not good but it is in his kit and it does help in loops. Especially around maze tiles.
Wraith has his extended lunge. Again, not good but it helps.
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It would, if it was actually possible.
While you are broken, you cannot heal yourself and the Styptic Agent can only be activated while healing with a med kit.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616164#Comment_3616164
1) A decent amount? Skull merchant, knight, and artist. What “decent amount” are you talking about? Holding W is a universal tactic, yes, but it IS skull merchant’s most encouraged counterplay, and that is so unhealthy and boring.
2) Even if you make it to the window, or back to the pallet, her drone will still take effect. That is my point. You will still get injured even if you make the loop.
3) I’ve got a fantastic headset. But not everybody can afford quality headsets or even a headset at all. She’s much quieter than any other stealth killer.
4) Hag requires a significant more input than SM does. I heavily dislike artist as well because of the counterplay she encourages.
5) Regardless, his mechanical skill level is leagues higher than SM, and his hinder is much less significant than SM. That’s my point.
Last: Did I say at the same time? No. I asked, can her kit cause all of those status effects? Many of them can absolutely be caused simultaneously. It’s undeniable. Her kit does way too much for too little effort with too little counterplay. The vast majority of players share that same view.
I foresee changes in her future again. Especially with her sky high kill rate.
I wish I could be as optimistic as you. My guess is, they've given up. Slog Merchant is a failed concept and no amount of tweaks will change that. It's her core that is the problem and it's clear they want to stick to it.
I don't understand how some people can actually enjoy her either (you described her gameplay loop perfectly imo) but I understand not wanting that to be removed. In all honesty, I think this is BHVR's worst mistake yet. They created a killer that is hated beyond reason by many and loved by others. No matter what they do, there will be a lot of backlash and it won't be forgotten.
@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616067#Comment_3616067
In comparison to what a lot of killers can do SM is far from broken it's just that nobody bothers to learn the match up.
Plague basically blanks every healing perks and keeps people one shot far better than SM does and Wesker does the free info plus hindered better. There really isn't anything she's the best at she's just a jack of all trades master of none killer.
Truthfully, I don't even want to give this killer another chance anymore. I have gotten used to hating her and it's more than just her power that I abhore. It's (literally) everything about her. For me to even consider changing my mind now, after 3 iterations that I despised, they would need to pull off a miracle.
My good will regarding this killer was barely existent to begin with and now it's completely gone. As long as I don't play her and just keep on ignoring her power when I get matched with her, I don't have to suffer through her gameplay. I die quickly and go next. Win-win for me and most other people it seems because there aren't a lot of people that want to play against her anyway.
Her gameplay to me is incredibly boring and her counterplay is the same. There is absolutely no thought in any of it as far as I am concerned. Set up drone, adjust rotation and play M1 killer and pre drop, Shift + W rinse and repeat until you eventually are cornered and go down because you don't get to leave anymore (no speed boost on hit when you're already claw trapped). Slog Merchant reduces both sides to bots. Every loop plays the exact same and the outcome is always predictable. I miss the interactivity of the chase with her.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616044#Comment_3616044
I’m sorry but they were literally terrified of an M1 killer I can’t take that match serious and assuming this was even the case, I never said she couldn’t hold a 3 gen just that plague has always done it better, easier, more effectively, and most importantly neither her or skull merchant were ever problems!
You can’t seriously still be blinded by your weird hate boner for SM to say she’s still better at 3 genning
A M1 killer that downs you in 1 hit or a M1 killer, that has stealth, a Haste effect, has something to make skill checks extremely hard to hit and downs you in 1 hit?
There are some slight differences it seems... A Plague could not have made Eternal miss all of these skill checks, much less patrolled the gens that quick due to her lack of movement speed, which would have made her unable to kick them that often. The stealth part didn't even matter in that game because it was an open map and a comp SWF. But it does matter for your average solo queue group.
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@PyramidFootLicker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615826#Comment_3615826
What about cases where the killer straight up ignores you because they have STBFL
I don't see what these have to do with each other. You can force yourself on a killer, if they don't go after you and there are multiple perks to change the obsession. That is what you call counterplay and if survivors don't that, too bad.
Distortion on the other hand is a very selfish perk. You bring it into the match and your team mates are the ones that have to pay for it. Unless you go out of your way to defy your own perk's use. Which is quite counter intuitive. It's even worse when there are multiple Distortions because then someone else will die even sooner.
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Even that can be considered a chase power. No red stain, going down in one hit and his ability to crouch to avoid being seen definitely help. On top of that he has the ability to sneak up on survivors and force them to play around the first loop they get to because they have little distance.
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@I_CAME said:
The lobby should not even exist to begin with. You should just queue and go straight into the loading screen once you find a match. You'd get games faster and the games would likely be more balanced due to less dodging on both sides. I think the problem is deeper than just killers seeing prestige levels. It's also the fact that they can see hours, items, etc. This should not be a thing. All it does is encourage lobby shopping. The lobby right now is an inconvenience at best. It just makes you have to wait at least 2-3 minutes longer than you would have to if it didn't exist.
and P100s do not get targeted. I have not been successfully tunneled in my last few hundred games and I almost always play on a P100.
With perks that are specifically designed to counter items, this doesn't make sense. You'd need to overhaul all of them, if the lobby was skipped altogether.
They could however change the lobby, so that killers don't see prestige and can't check the survivors' hours either.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
No, I would say it's pretty random. Sometimes you get sweaty team with best tools and map offering and sometimes you get survivors who give up in like 5 min.
That's my experience too.
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I think it would be healthy, if you couldn't gain any stacks while being the survivor with the least hook stages. Because at the moment Distortion kind of incentivises tunneling or at least ignoring the existence of all survivors that use it, which isn't ideal.
Other than that, I don't think it needs any changes. It's strong but mostly fine.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615756#Comment_3615756
You tell me I have no shame? How many baby megs and Dwights have you sawed to pieces?
T-t-t-that's different. I do that very gentle and with all the kindness in my heart. And sometimes a little bit of self hatred...
Also, it's not that many. Only about a very reasonable 9,774 survivors in total. That is not even 10k. I don't know the average pick rates for Dwight and Meg but it's probably only a few hundred. And most of them deserved it. They kept throwing pallets on my head when I only wanted to be friends!
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Have you no shame? Even the winter cold isn't enough to stop a Blight main from sweating.
May the ghosts of Dwight's past, Meg's Present and Ace's Yet To Come show you the way.
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Merry Christmas!
May Santa Clown be generous with you.
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Killers that I love playing against: Hillbilly, Blight, Huntress, Oni, Bubba, Myers, Wesker, Demogorgon, Doctor, Nemesis, Pinhead, Singularity (as long as I actually get to play and don't have to spend 90% of the match slugged).
The only killers I really hate playing against are: Slog Merchant, Knight and Spirit (I play without headphones, so that's basically a gg).
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I typically adapt. If my info perks mean nothing and I can't find half their team for the life of me, then guess what's going to happen at 5 hooks. Someone will die. That's the logical consequence.
It's annoying for sure. I mean, nobody likes having their perks countered. But I can deal with it for the most part.
@GeneralV said:
Is this because of Ultimate Weapon?
My guess? It is actually because stealth is one of the few things from the survivor side that hasn't been hit with unnecessary changes.
Everything else (totems, healing and chases) has suffered in one way or another.
Spam heals were getting out of hand, so I disagree that these changes were unnecessary.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615426#Comment_3615426
The difference in trapper's case is the same as in hag's: Their anti-loop is planned ahead, it's not on demand. Thats why most people don't consider them anti-loop, since dropping traps midchase just guarantees the survivor making it safely to the next tile. You could then argue that shift W works against multiple killers' anti-loop, so it starts to get a bit messy after that.
I more accurately see people call them varying degrees of anti-loop. Someone like clown or pinhead you could say have strong anti-loop, while someone like hag has weak antiloop. Like you've surmised, nearly every killer in the game has some degree of anti-loop, but thats the fun part about colloquial usages: They're generally incorrect but still universally understood.
I agree with the distinction you made in the second half but many Trappers will keep 1 or 2 traps at hand to shut down the strongest loops, if necessary. Especially with the now 10 traps, that is a reliable strategy. The same can and will be done with Hag, if you are going to 'chase' at all.
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@UndeddJester said:
This is where I'm kinda in the middle.
While talking to @Xernoton, who explained the advanced flicks to me, the big issue that comes from the above changes are... you simply can't flick on console, it is not possible due to how the input works.
The skill expression is a big thing, and something I advocate for... I love facing a good Hillbilly, Oni and Wesker, I'm less enthused about the Blight, but I respect him, and the advanced tricks on these killers are out of reach on console. Chucky's limited turn arc for Slice and Dice + Scamper is really hard to use on console, there are a very select number of places you can use it and reasonably expect to score a hit, but PC players could subvert this limited turn arc and last massive flicks that console never could hope to do.
Having a killer who is basically locked out of controller use due to the nature of their power is not good. The scamper under pallet is possibly too easy on PC, but the current iteration where he cant flick makes him reasonably consistent across platforms.
If we get rid of scampering under pallets flat and are forced to use slice and dice, rather than flicks, I'd prefer his turn arc was increased instead, so the skill expression is more from him being able to position correctly and get his hits from his turn arc is there, but isn't such a huge disparity vs. console.
This is a problem that can never be solved, unfortunately. Controller movement will never be quite as accurate as M&K. The devs could allow for higher sensitivities on controller however. That would at least help with this issue.
But I don't think that cutting skill expression from a killer is a good idea, no matter the reason. I am all for trying to create equal conditions for everyone but this is in my opinion the wrong way to do it. Instead of trying to fix the issue that console players are at a disadvantage, they limit killers on M&K. That just feels wrong.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615410#Comment_3615410
I'm pretty sure the term has to do with killers whose powers make a significant counter to traditional looping. Clown bottles or doctor shocks have far more impact than, say, wraith's cloak. Call it a misnomer but thats the colloquial usage of the term.
I am aware of that. But the problem is that a term that isn't defined accurately is pretty much useless. Because then you have the issue, that there will be arguments about what actually falls under that category.
Trapper for example is generally considered a killer without anti loop. But in reality he has pretty much the strongest anti loop in the game. Set a trap and now you get a free hit or down, if the survivor doesn't leave the loop.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615250#Comment_3615250
Are you saying every killer is anti-loop..? That is an extraordinary hot take.
I'm saying that the term "anti loop killer" is inaccurate. There is not a single killer in the game that cannot use their power for a little bit of an extra edge in a loop. That is not a hot take but a fact. Name one exception, I'll wait.
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Happy holidays to all of you.
May Santa Clown have mercy with you.
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615249#Comment_3615249
You just described killers with anti-loop.
One of the reasons I'm not playing survivor is that I feel it's mind-numbingly simple. You are holding m1 or W during 95% of the match. I don't have to understand what people enjoy in that - I'm just happy that they do, because that means I can chase them! Sure, Skull Merchant is not a Hux or Twins, but she still requires much more focus and thought than what the average survivor puts into the trial.
"Anti loop killers" (describes almost every killer in DBD history) still have to actually play around loops (with few exceptions). Slog Merchant on the other hand puts you in a lose-lose scenario simply by pressing M2. It's mind numbingly simple.
Slog Merchant doesn't require focus to play against because she leaves you with only one option every time she presses M2. To drop the pallet and leave the loop. It's the same every time. There is no thinking involved. You play the same around every loop against every SM and do not vary in any way because it's the only way to delay her even a bit.
She turns both sides into bots and if that isn't bad design, then I don't know what is.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614978#Comment_3614978
DBD has anti-loop killers because players wanted killers that could more easily handle loops. But survivors still need some way to counter that; hence pre-drop and run (although to be fair that’s not a sure-fire way to escape an anti-loop killer).
Wrong. There has never been a killer (maybe except old Wraith) without any kind of anti loop power. This has always been a part of DBD's killer design.
Sadako is a great example of what happens when a killer doesn't have a good chase power. They have to double down on everything else in their kit to build pressure somehow and it ends up pretty unfun to play against.
Also, the killers that are generally considered the most fun to play against are all killers with (in theory) oppressive chase powers. Blight, Demo, Oni, Bubba, Huntress and Billy come to mind.
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@Evan_ said:
I can't take any Skull Merchant criticism seriously that doesn't start with
"yes, I know the drones do nothing if stay still, crouch-walk, avoid the scan-lasers or leave the loop, but..."
The only explanation for a Skull Merchant being better in 3-gen than any territorial killer is if the survivors doesn't know this. Also there is no explanation for a Skull Merchant being better in chase than a Clown besides the comparison-Clown being bad.
Try leaving the loop without giving her something in return. She either gets a hit or a pallet and you might still get a lock on stack.
Also, a killer that has a large range area denial ability will always be good at playing territorial. It doesn't matter that the survivors don't have to worry about lock on stacks while doing gens. As soon as you get near them, they have to leave and considering that you have an inbuilt stealth ability and can deny any loop they get to, it's no surprise that you'll get some easy hits. This forces them to heal and allow you to regress the gens for a bit. Until you eventually gain the haste effect of a claw trap. Then, you'll start snowballing and getting even faster hits and more lock on stacks.
Skull Merchant doesn't require any more thought than: "Press M2 at a slight distance to the loop and adjust the rotation to either cut off the survivor or force them to stand still multiple times per loop." and playing against her always reduces your 'counterplay' to: "Pre drop pallet before anything happens and leave the loop."
I do not see how any of this could be considered fun. I really don't, so if you would be so kind to explain, I'd be grateful. Then I'd at least have an idea why people actually play her. Or is it just because she is easy to play and guarantees results?
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For killers:
Take the time to learn the killer you play. Every killer is unique in some way and playing into their strengths can bring you a long way. Focus on a handful of killers that you want to get good with and learn their unique strenghts and weaknesses.
Don't be discouraged from chasing good survivors. These are the kind of players, that you'll learn most from.
Also, don't use the same 4 perks on every killer. Different killers have different strengths and weaknesses and synergise with different perks.
For survivors:
Play smart not hard. Make some smart decisions outside of chase and utilise the information you get from the HUD.
Look out for gens in potential dead zones and finish them early on, Bond can help you tell what gens are about to be done and where the killer is headed.
Getting better at the game is a lot more fun than crutching on meta perks.
For both sides: The game isn't over until it's over. You can turn around a match in the 11th hour even when everything points against it.
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614855#Comment_3614855
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614909#Comment_3614909
If a Survivor constantly pre-drops and takes no risk, then ya know what that means?
1: Chances are, they are not that good at looping when they run out of safe/god pallets.
2: For every pallet that's dropped (and that you broke) that's one less loop for him or other Survivors later on.
3: After everything's been pre-dropped, nearly every chases are free unless they find a strong window.
And if worst comes to worst and the Survivor can handle himself even without pre-dropping? There is no shame in dropping chase. In fact if you can't get a hit in around 30 seconds then you should consider leaving the chase anyway since 30 seconds is around 33% of a gen without perks/items/great skill checks.
WoO is the most newcomer-friendly perk and makes the new player experience much more bearable until you know the maps enough to play without it. It's especially good for SoloQ and newcomers since they can't/don't know what has been used and where are the deadzones (while SWF teams and/or experienced players have some of that information).
If you gut Windows it'll hit newcomers/casuals hard. It's not exactly complicated to understand that WoO, just like Distortion, does NOT make a Survivor better at the game. Sure Windows can make a chase a tad more difficult (at least more so than it should be if facing a newcomer or casual player) but all those dropped pallets are gonna be missing later and eventually the Survivors won't have anything and chases will become easy.
1, 2 and 3 would be good points, if my average match wouldn't last less than 6 minutes. There are very few maps where this play style doesn't work. On most, ypu have such an abundance of pallets, that it's enough to win. After all, for any slow down to happen, the killer first needs a down.
I can't believe dropping the chase is still used as a strawman. It didn't work with DH and doesn't work now. As soon as I drop chase, then these 30 seconds go to waste. Because the next survivor can easily repeat that. This wouldn't be the case, if they actually played good and tried to loop. Because then there would be someone that is at least slightly worse than the rest. But pre dropping and Shift + W is something everyone can do and because they will also have WoO, it doesn't matter that some pallets are out of the way. They'll still find more.
The funny thing is, that new players won't use WoO right away. Think about it. It's locked behind a character, that doesn't come with the base game and would first need to be unlocked. But for them to even know that there is such a perk it would already take a while. With all the other perks in the game it would just disappear in the crowd. Beginners mainly use the free perks and teachables of the original characters for that reason. You get them for free and they are the first perks you'll actually learn about. The rest comes with time. I wouldn't even have an issue, if WoO was a beginner perk. But it is used by people with thousands of hours.
The whole argument about solo queue is just as shallow. If they were to revert the perk to how it used to work, then you'd still have the information what resources around you are still up but you'd actually have to buy yourself some time before you get more information. So it would incentivise looping, which should be a core part of the game.
WoO doesn't make a survivor more skilled. But it does make them better. Any perk, that doesn't nerf you will. One of the main flaws of this game is that the most effective play styles aren't all that skillful. Look at comp survivors and how they play. You'll see a bunch of pre drops and Shift + W. This is what baby survivors do too and WoO only amplifies that.
If my chases become easy later on, then that's great, so that means I'll make a comeback, right? What, if I already lost by that point? Or what, if I only get to capitalise on it, when 4 gens are done and last is about to pop too? For me to turn that around, I would need to slug all of them and play a high tier killer. But then I'd also be able to play around their pre dropped pallets. This is one quality, that the big 3 (Nurse, Blight and Spirit) as well as the strongest A-tier killers have in common. But if played Freddy, then it doesn't work, because I'd have neither the mobility nor the power to end chases quickly. Even just Shift + W can buy you 15 seconds easily. Add an exhaustion perk and you'll last even longer. Without the use of any resources.
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@dwight444 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614855#Comment_3614855
I mean these guys are pre dropping and running away anyway, woo just helps them stay informed as to where they can do just that
the people pre-dropping and not being efficient with loops and resources are exactly who benefit the most from this perk: beginners
At least they'd run into dead zones without WoO. Eventually every pallet is gone and they won't find any without it. Also, then I'd at least play against survivors that know maps. But as it is, not even that is the case.
Also, I know play time isn't an exact indicator of a player's skill but I'd hardly call someone with more than 1k hours (the least I see in my lobbies) a beginner. Yet they use WoO.
@neasbasement said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614855#Comment_3614855
Pre-dropping does have counter-play, it’s go around, there are so many unsafe loops you can get a hit in at and if it’s a safe loop you’re just gonna have to break the pallet. As killer if you see their pre dropping you can also hide your stain (mind game) so they don’t know which side to be on and that’s a hit 9/10 times. I feel like most people forget that WoO gives the same info an experienced player would know but it doesn’t make them good at the game.
Good luck catching up to a survivor that pre drops. They will not stay at an unsafe loop. But pre drop the pallet to Block the killer's path and make more distance. Then they get to the next pallet or the pallet after that and repeat the process.
This has no counterplay. If the killer can't catch up, then they can't mind game to get a hit either.
If it is an experienced player, then I at least play against people that have a bit of knowledge about the game. Someone that would eventually run into dead zones or actually play around pallets, once enough pallets are gone. That is more fun and interactive than playing against people, that die the second their favorite crutch doesn't play the game for them. I mean, just try using UW. How many times do you have survivors that run past whatever pallet they get to because it isn't highlighted in yellow? I assure you, it's a lot. This happens even with people that have thousands of hours. Because crutching on WoO means you forget how to play the game without it.
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@neasbasement said:
I think it’s fine as is, that survivor still has to know how to loop and there’s many killers that have a power to help you catch them in chase. Also zoning is a very good tool against WoO not to mention there’s add ons for most killers that cause blindness. Personally i’d rather have and go up against a team that loops instead of excessively hiding it makes the game more interesting.
Looping? That's so 2020.
WoO turns many (if not most) survivors into pre drop and Shift + W machines. This makes the game extremely boring. You cannot mind game Shift + W and it reduces the interactivity in chase (arguably the most fun part of DBD). The killer plays more against the map and perk than the survivor themself, while the survivor stops thinking and follows the glowing yellow boxes. Truly riveting gameplay. Zoning doesn't work in this situation either.
If WoO went on a cooldown every X seconds, it would actually encourage looping because that would eliminate its other use. You would still know where to go and buying yourself a bit of time by looping would reward you with more information.
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I thought he felt a bit slow when he was released and it hasn't changed. It's just not my kind of killer, I guess.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614421#Comment_3614421
But I’m just a survivor main!!! 👀
Sure you are. 😘
@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614421#Comment_3614421
It's meant to be all the killers speaking in unison, the bubble just happens to be closest to Mountain William's head
I suspected that but it was the first thing I noticed.
Also Mountain William? I am so going to shamelessly steel that name. 😈
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@ratcoffee said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BW0SK2J2LPBD/image.png
"Solo survivor is a little OP"
Why does it have to be Hillbilly of all killers? I swear, we aren't that sweaty.
The Blight mains are the sweaty ones! It's @HugTechLover and his associates.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614192#Comment_3614192
It tells us a lot of people are lying about these unbeatable SWF squads they claim to see every match.
We both know, that there are very few extremes on either side. Solo survivors don't encounter comp Nurses in every game and killers don't go against seal team six SWFs regularly either.
It's also likely that many players that assume they are in high MMR are wrong about this. So naturally they would be under a false impression of the people they play against.
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A killer that doesn't chase, won't get any downs. The only other way to win is to hold a 3 gen for 60 minutes, which has become less reliable.
Hag may be an exception because her chases are a bit different.
But really, what do you mean by 'chase'? Chase means running after survivor to get a hit / down. If the killer has a power to get that hit or down easier, then it's still a chase.
Huntress' hitboxes aren't broken. Seriously play her. If you understand how hitboxes and latency work, you see that her hitboxes are very much fine.
Nurse can't win, if she doesn't chase. It's just that her chase power is ridiculously strong.
Clown has a very oppressive chase power but that is only normal for a killer without mobility.
Spirit does have counterplay but you need to play with headphones and also be very on point.
I have yet to see a Blight that can win without chasing. His chase power is very strong but that doesn't change the fact that he still needs to chase.
Wesker still needs to chase you. If he doesn't, then what's the point of his power?
Slog Merchant arguable doesn't need to chase because she could hold a 3gen.
You could try to do the same with Knight but that is only going to work against pretty bad survivors.
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@tjt85 said:
I often wondered this. Why tell the killer exactly where to find hatch and your teammates that you're going to ditch them the instant things get rough? I make a point of killing anyone who brings a hatch offering if I can, because they're usually the kind of Survivor that hides and does nothing else for the rest of the trail whenever things start to go south.
I usually spend a bit of time searching main / shack or near the gates if I see the other player is still trying to complete gens.
And how do you know who exactly brought the offering? They might just play like normal until the hatch opens.
Not telling the killer would mean, that you basically guarantee an escape, if the killer doesn't slug for the 4k.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613188#Comment_3613188
Aha. So killer players are more skilled, gotcha.
It would make sense. If you're playing one killer for a thousand games in row, then you get a lot more practice on that killer than a survivor group that plays a thousand matches in a row will against that killer. They play against 34 different killers after all.
Also, killers have a bit more room for different strategies. So you'll find people that play the same killer in completely different ways sometimes. If the survivors don't know / expect that, then it's likely the killer will have an advantage.
So, I'd say that killers have an easier time mastering a killer, then the survivors have mastering the counter play.
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@Pulsar said:
I think that a fifty win streak or a one hundred win streak should be able to happen if you're THAT good.
I don't think there's any excuse for 400+ streaks
That depends. Honestly, I don't think this tells us a whole lot more than: "The best players will stomp everyone else.", which is kind of a positive thing, if we want the game to be balanced.
Also, many of these killers are one trick ponies. They play one killer so much, that it's only natural that they will have an advantage. Survivors play against 34 different killers, while the killer can main one and get a lot more practice in comparison.
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The more you stomp, the less you'll do all of the actions that let you pip.
If you want to pip regardless, you'll have to do a few things extra.
The wiki offers more information on the topic.
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A Nurse that plays perfectly cannot be beaten.
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What you're referring to is called "elo hell" and it's unlikely, that something like that actually exists.
On one hand, it's clear that you won't win a match alone as a survivor. It's a team game after all. But on the other hand, it's very unlikely that you are consistently matched with bad players that drag you down.
Especially in DBD the matchmaking is a bit wonky. So your matches will swing wildly from too easy to too hard. Honestly though, I think that's a better option than super strict matchmaking for most players. We already had these when MMR was initially introduced and it was horrible. My matches were boring, repetitive, sweaty, predictable and overall not very enjoyable and it seemed that many players had a similar experience.
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Because you will wait around the hatch while the second to last survivor dies. You escape before the killer even has the chance to close it.
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@bloodyknife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613825#Comment_3613825
Something to climb towards like a ranking system. Right now there is nothing. That pip and grade system is totally meaningless and now it's gone from my screen until I open up my profile.
I want to see a leaderboard see how much I did my objective at the end of the match. I want to see something.
Here you go, mate.
Alternatively, there is also this.