Xernoton
Xernoton
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@o7o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618846#Comment_3618846
Camping Bubba’s have one goal and that’s to face camp. Why would they run gen slowdown when that’s not their goal? They want to get gen rushed and hope survivors make mistakes trading.
Because it allows them to camp more. Face camping doesn't work anymore, Bubba is no exception. But proxy camping with Deadlock buys you more time to do just that and also gives you better results in the process.
I have yet to see a Bubba that camps because they want to be gen rushed. That makes no sense.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618891#Comment_3618891
A 10 second DS would stop you eventually. You’d get tired of losing matches.
I'd kill that person none the less.
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I said it before. Even a 10 seconds DS wouldn't stop me, if I wanted you dead. But it would disincentivise tunneling a bit and push killers towards a more pleasent play style. If 4 survivors have DS, that means I can ignore 4 perks, if I don't tunnel.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618869#Comment_3618869
Add in Corrupt Intervention for that critical, free, early game slowdown.
Fair point.
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@Sunbreaker7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618846#Comment_3618846
Provide me an example of such situation when all Bubba is doing is camping the hook, and you are safe to do gens.
Survivor 1 finishes a gen and survivor 2's gen is blocked for 30 seconds. That already puts them behind schedule.
3 survivors can in theory finish the gens in a little more than 200 seconds (considering they need to run from gen to gen) which is already longer than a good chase and the 120 seconds until the first survivor dies.
Bring Deadlock into the equation and the killer buys themself another 30 seconds without any input. So they get 230 seconds for the 5 gens at minimum. That's almost 4 minutes. But after the first survivor died (about 180 seconds into the match) the killer can pressure the remaining 3 with ease. It's not rocket science.
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Deadlock exists.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618831#Comment_3618831
It failed because gen kicking meta was stacking. It was not too bad on paper. But in action, it was hell to go against.
BHVR need to add some middle game slowdowns, this could help to fair playing killers. Grim Embrace is good example here but it's really so weak. I am hoping upcoming buff / rework brings this perk into good spot.
I don't think Grim Embrace is really a weak perk. I mean, it has a pretty good effect. The problem is that the activation requirement is quite high and 40 seconds of blocked gens mean that survivors can hide that entire time (except the obsession and only if they don't have Distortion).
The idea is nice but the execution poor. They would need to ensure a killer can reliably activate it and get value from it but then they'd come dangerously close to overbuffing it.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618826#Comment_3618826
So 1 perk add 1 extra Gen time. It sounds fine on paper, but should killers able to add extra 4 Gens with 4 slowdown?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618819#Comment_3618819
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon doesnt think slowdown perks should be nerfed, same for me, slowdown perks could be stronger. But stacking is the main problem.
On killer loadout, it should be "which 1 or 2 slowdown perks combo should I use, and which other 2 perks should I use to enhance my power/addon play style?". Not "Im going to use the 4 strongest slowdown", and there goes every single match without creativity.
But should killers be able to add extra 4 gens with 4 slowdown?
That's not an easy question to answer. Consider it like this:
The killer gives up all 4 of their perk slots for extra time in a match. So they do not get any information, anti healing, or help in chase, which means that they purely rely on their ability to outlast the survivors. That however shouldn't really work that well because 3 of the most popular slowdown perks (PR, Pop, Surge) only work when they can get consistent downs. This is not an issue for Blight and Nurse but it definitely hits killers like Freddy, Wraith etc.
So we are going back to the same old problem of the disparity in killer power.
I think full slowdown is quite ineffective for the most part and therefore doesn't really need a nerf. But I understand that it's demoralising none the less. So I am not totally against it.
The problem I see is that they'd need to work around some issues, which could potentially make perk variety even worse and the game even more stale. That is not great for either side.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618806#Comment_3618806
How much time should one slowdown perk save for killer for you? Give me a range of time, 60sec? 90sec? 120sec?
I think it's fine for a killer to buy themself up to 180 extra seconds, if they use 2 or more slow down perks. A single slow down perk should not buy them a lot more than 90 seconds in my opinion (kind of depends on how the match goes) and the extreme of 4 slowdown perks isn't something I like either. But playing without slowdown for so long has taught me, that the game just isn't balanced that way.
Without it, your match ends too quickly for you to even have a realistic chance to perform well, considering that you need to get through resources too. I cannot even call this gen rush because the survivors I play against mostly don't use the strongest possible things to speed up gens but your average meta perks and items (often medkits instead of toolboxes). It's still not very nice when your matches quite regularly end in under 6 minutes.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618775#Comment_3618775
Stacking is problem, not perks.
If there was way to stop stacking CoB and Overcharge, both perks was just fine by their own.
That's only an example. People are using 3 or 4 slowdown perks together and this is ending with nerfs. And that's also reason why we are not getting strong anti-gen perks. Because we all know people will use it with PR and Pop.
Non of anti-heal perks are in use because Sloppy is doing everything by itself. It's best anti-heal perk and some killers even can use add-ons instead of perk. So why you even use other perks when you have this?
Information perks never got that much complaints. Right now only Ultimate Weapon got complaints for fair reasons. This perk has very easy values and killer is doing nothing for value. This perk is just outclasses any of other information perks
But then you'd have the problem that you would greatly limit the killer's choice in what perks they are allowed to use. BHVR don't have the time to go over every perk and decide, if they want certain cominations to synergise or not. That would take literally forever and would also need to be reconsidered every time a new perk is released or a perk is reworked. So they would need to distribute perks into different categories instead and limit how many slots a killer has for each of them.
Sloppy isn't just the best anti healing perk because it does everything by itself but also because everything else is utter garbage. I mean, what are you supposed to do with Leverage, Coulrophobia (outside of niche builds, that are also hated from what I've seen) and the others? They are just bad.
There have been quite a few complaints about how it's too easy for killers to find survivors now with all the information perks available. UW is just one example. Even Friends Til The End was complained about for that reason, though that seems to have died down. I'll try to remember to point you towards the next complaints that come up.
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It automates chases, which is very convenient. You no longer need to put any thought in how you run the map because WoO does it for you.
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It's annoying but fine. My least favorite exhaustion perk.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618777#Comment_3618777
They did? I actually didn't know that.
Is that the reason why BBQ, WGLF and Prove Thyself got changed? Massive disappointment.
Yeah. I think that happened around the time when they announced changes in 6.1.0.
The whole bloodweb could use a rework in my opinion. What is the point of different rarities, if you have every item / addon / offering in abundance anyway? Especially when the distribution doesn't make a whole lot of sense either...
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618775#Comment_3618775
BBQ for bloodpoints.
That one no survivor nor killer complains about.
I would like that but that is not going to happen. They stated that they do not want perks to be popular for the BP gain.
But really, what else can they do?
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@Pulsar said:
Can't wait for three slowdowns and Corrupt!
Isn't that what most use anyway? Deadlock / Surge, Corrupt, Pain Res and Pop?
At this point, what are the the devs even supposed to do? Information is a no-no (community says it's too much already), chase perks are either pretty terrible or very unfun to go against, slowdown has the danger of being used in combination and anti healing perks are again either terrible or very unfun to go against.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618436#Comment_3618436
For sure, at the current state of the game, this would not feel very satisfying for killer, but i am talking about what i would like to have. In no way do i have an idea how this could be a possibility. A start would be that hook stages, especially fresh hooks count way more then they do now. Then at least you dont get the "entity hungers" while you actually hooked a fair amount of people.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618429#Comment_3618429
I am sorry, but i can not find it anymore. It was a series of multible sets and i believe it was on Hens stream. Not 100% sure tho.
EDIT: Nevermind, i found this best of. Its not exactly what i was looking for, but its something. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Z8lP_gBJE
Its fine, we can disagree on that. For sure the gap is not very wide, so its nitpicking anyway.
It depends on which killer they run into. My opinion on that matter is that this is more a matchmaking issue. Often times i run a killer for 5 gens aswell, just had a match a few hours ago where a pig (the first pig i saw in ages 😥) wanted it really to know. But they are usually not on my level - the pig for example had like 1.500 hours and was prestige 4. No idea why a player like this is in my lobby. The same is for those killers who get looped by streamers. If you ask me if this should be possible: Yes an no. Yes in terms of if a survivor is so much better then the killer and No because they should not play the same match in the first place.
Mmh i think it would be still fun for both sides. Actually, if i am allowed to speak for myself here: I would have a ton more fun playing killer when it would be 50/50. This sounds very arrogant, but it is true that most games playing killer feel just like a slauter fest. Its to easy nowadays, more often then not. Of course you get those more sweaty games in between, but realisticly it is really not that hard. Thats a me thing probably, because i am more of a competetive type player and i dont get a kick out of destroying the "weaker" side.
Completly fine to think the MMR is good.
Oh and before i forget: If i remember right, you are a billy main so this is also for you. 😊
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/N54G9HUQ69SP/6cea0e55b7b75c0f8dd1be728b79fba4.jpg
Thank you for both the answer and the artwork. 😊
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618429#Comment_3618429
If he means the showcase from Hens it is not that interesting. The twist was they ramped up the limitations for Blight vs Nurse. First without any addons, then up to yellow or green, then no limits. Something like that. Only 6 games iirc. It Anyway, here you go.
Thank you.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615826#Comment_3615826
It could be retooled altogether.
Instead of recharging in the killers terror radius, it could be fully recharged each time you get hooked.
I would be fine with that but it would weaken the perk significantly. As it is, you barely burn through the stacks even with a complete info build (which I am more or less fine with) but with this rework, that would no longer be the case.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618299#Comment_3618299
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618307#Comment_3618307
The thing about Freddy is that you can still do well with him, it is just extremely boring to do so.
Like, take this screenshot for example. A little bit before the event, if I recall correctly:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SOL60Y841FY4/image.png
That is a 4k, I've won. Technically, one could argue I had enough control of the trial to get all four survivors.
But it doesn't feel good to play him.
Enough control of the match or not, I've been a Freddy main since 2018 and no awful rework or nerf will ever change that. But I desperately want my favorite killer back.
I agree that you can perform well (even very well) with any killer. But you will hardly achieve the same results with Freddy as a Nurse main would with Nurse against the same survivors.
All you Freddy mains out there have my respect (I can't believe I am saying this now after I had to suffer through Forever Freddy when I started playing DBD). I play him from time to time but I always know, that I have very little power outside of my M1 killer plays and he does get boring after a bit (sadly, not even his laugh and animations can change that).
I am with you on wishing for a comeback of old Freddy. I never got to play him and I am not sure how well he would hold up in modern day DBD (after all, the game has changed quite a bit) but I like the old design a lot more from what I've seen. Maybe he just needs the DH approach where we flood the forum with so many posts about him that the devs will deal with him out of annoyance, if nothing else.
In which case: BRING BACK OLD FREDDY!!!!!!
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618396#Comment_3618396
Even weakest killers are above 50% , so i don't know. I am not saying weakest killers should not be buffed but most of killers are just doing fine. This game is not favoring survivors. Even most of SWF teams are very much defeatable.
The problem with that argument is that DBD's matchmaking is based on MMR. Meaning the top 5% Nurse MMR could be higher than the top 0.01% Freddy MMR, so their respective survivors would vary in their skill levels as well. It only shows that the matchmaking and balance in combination achieve these results. They only took the top 5% MMR on each individual killer and not the top 5% overall killer MMR after all.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618388#Comment_3618388
They did a series of showmatches with no restriction and killer came out on top (comp players vs comp players). So i do think some killers are stronger then best survivor comp teams, mainly Nurse Spirt and Blight. But it is okay to think otherwise since we dont have much footage of that.
Switch 4 and 5 for obvious reason and i would fully agree with your updated list.
Sure thing, Bully squads were at a time where survivors had strong tools, more powerful perks and especially when better maps were a thing. But those Bully squads often ran in less experienced killers at that time due to more or less random matchmaking. I never saw a bully squad in 2018 "bullying" for example a good mega blink nurse. In that case, the Bully was the killer.
That is also why i believe ballance is important. When killer are to strong, they become the bully. We see this very often now in currenct matchmaking. So i stick with that statement - ballance and solid matchmaking is actually a great way to elliminate bully squads/bullying killers.
I am not saying, turn the tides and make survivor huge favourite, i am saying make it even. And improve the matchmaking system.
Could you point me towards that showcase? I haven't seen that and would definitely like to be educated on it. Though, it kind of leaves the question: "Why are these limitations in place to begin with?" At least against Nurses and Blights. Could be for consistency reasons but other than that, I don't know.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the order of 4) and 5). The difference isn't huge but I think that the communication and consistency that a full SWF provide ultimately still give them an advantage over the killer. Of course we would assume that everyone plays well and the survivors communicate effectively (otherwise I'd consider them an example for category 6)). But I respect your opinion on that matter.
The matchmaking in DBD is still not a perfect science (which is a good thing imo). How many content creators have you seen loop a killer for minutes? There are tons of these videos and that should not happen when the killer plays just as well as the survivors. Also, many of these bully squads focus more on making the killer miserable than actually winning, so the MMR will put them against killers below their own skill quite often.
The problem with perfect balance (in the sense of a 50% kill rate) in my opinion is that it would make the game less fun for everyone, that doesn't play quite as serious. I personally do not like the idea of my matches all becoming super hard but somehow manageable (close to how it was shortly after MMR was introduced) because it would lead to matches becoming more predictable, any chance of variety disappearing (worse than DBD's always narrow meta) and ultimately a more stressful experience. If this is what a majority of players want (so many players, that BHVR would actually be willing to follow that route), then I'd have to deal with it but my interest in the game would lessen.
I know this opinion is not very popular but I am fine with MMR as it is. To me, it feels similar to the old rank system and I have a lot of fun knowing that I cannot predict, if I will win or lose and how even the match will be.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618307#Comment_3618307
Except Nurse and Blight, all killers have limits. Those limits are what makes them balanced.
Oni is so strong killer but his power is limited time and he need to built it.
Wesker is so strong killer but his limit is 2 charges.
Chucky is very strong killer but his limit is long cooldown.
Huntress is best range killer but her limit is numbered hatches and movement speed.
I can list more. Those killers needs limits. If you remove those limits, they will be new Nurses and Blights.
Problem ls some killers have so much limits and they need to be looked. Billy, Trapper, Pig, Myers, Freddy etc. But overall killers are just fine.
Game is already favoring killers with 60% kill-rate. Some people just want to win all matches because killer need to be "Power Role". And then what's the point of playing survivor when you know there is no chance to win?
So like i said, killer is already power role and they should not change this so much. Weak killers should take some love however.
Of course all killers have limits but that is not quite the point. My point was that some killers limits are comparitively low. Lower than what survivors can consistently achieve, if they play well enough. Take any A-tier killer for example and put them to the test against a low tier killer. The low tier killer will be able to keep up quite well (assuming the play pretty good) until they reach a certain point. That is the point where these lower tier killers will have the issue, that they cannot create opportunities for themself in a timely manner (building up bloodlust still works but is not an effective strategy because it takes too long) and instead have to rely on the survivors making mistakes.
What if these mistakes don't happen? Or what if these mistakes aren't grand enough for the killer to capitalise? Then the low tier killer is in a pretty spot. Our A-tier killer in comparison (let's say it's a Huntress), still has the strength to force survivors into lose-lose situations. A crazy good Huntress will find spots where the survivor gets hit no matter how good they are. She will also be able to do some things that are more unexpected than a M1 killer mind game, that the survivor has already seen a million times before.
Of course the possibilities vary among high tier killers too but to say that all killers will achieve equal results, if you just play them well enough would imply either:
1) All killers are significantly stronger than survivors (extremely killer sided game considering that we do consider different killers to be way stronger or weaker than others)
or
2) All killers are equally strong once you reach a certain level of gameplay (wrong because Nurse literally teleports through walls and hits you anywhere, where a M1 killer still has to follow the game's rules)
Both of these implications are wrong, so we can conclude, that the initial assumption was wrong as well.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618270#Comment_3618270
Comp Nurse and comp Blight are expected to 4K every single game in comp, it is only a matter on how many gens survivor can finish. No limitation does not change anything by the way. Even with best perks and best items, Blight for example is still on top. So what makes you think comp SWF is more powerful then Nurse/Blight?
Normal SWF, as we already have proven in a different thread, can not win as much as killer. SWF has not a better outcome on average then killer. Especially not when you take top tier killer into account. A strong pub SWF never ever has a higher winrate then a strong pub Nurse. Just simply not.
You are also using the word SWF incorrect. Just because my brother (who has like 200 hours in this game and does not give a damn) and i group up for some silly game, we are expected to beat top tier nurse? I dont know about that logic.
About your bullying argument: True, survivors can try to be annoying and rude in endgame chat, but so can killer. Right now, the killer is the Bully, if they want to, because you know... they have the power. Does it matter if Survoirs are 4 people when they get their ass kicked? I get what you are saying, taking the heat from 4 different people can be annoying - but hear is the problem: What are they supposed to do? Survivors, technically cant do ######### besides repairing generators, which does not hurt the killer. Mean words in endgame chat can be ignored and the chat can be closed. Tbabig is just a survivor moving up and down.
I have yet to see any comp group play without limitations. They aren't allowed to use the best items, they aren't allowed to use any item twice or more, certain perks are banned (although I am not sure, if this is still common), every perk is only allowed twice, maps in tournaments are always favorable for the killer etc.
Forgive me, if I doubt that there is no reason for these limitations.
The point about you and your brother playing in a SWF and not being able to beat a top tier Nurse is noted but honestly, that doesn't say much. It only shows that playing in a SWF is not an automatic win, which is a good thing. If your opponent plays better than you (you implied that by saying: "top tier Nurse"), then they should win. This is what balance means.
If you want me to make this ranking more accurate, then here you go:
0) Comp SWFs without any limitations (pretty much unbeatable but never happens)
1) Comp Nurses and Blights with normal comp rules
2) Comp SWFs with normal comp rules
3) Comp killers in general
4) Normal public SWFs, that play to win
5) Normal public killers playing to win
6) Casual 4 people SWFs
7) Casual killers
8) SWF / solo hybrid (2 SWFs)
9) SWF / solo hybrid (3 SWF, 1 solo)
10) SWF / solo hybrid (2 SWF, 2 solo)
11) Casual solos
12) Meming SWFs
13) Meming killers
14) Meming solos
In this case however, I would need to go into more detail because a 3 people SWF can carry their 1 solo team mate pretty far, if they are that good. 2 SWFs can also be extremely good and coordinate with each other and surpass a casual killer. It all gets muddled when you go that deep. That is the main reason I only listed "SWF" (which I mainly considered 3 or 4 people in a SWF). You are correct though, that I used the term a bit too broadly.
The reason I brought up the point with bullies in DBD is because bully squads were a real issue in the past (now not so much). Bullying can be everything from exploits, certain perk combinations, flashlight macros (patched), excessive tbagging from multiple survivors (imagine how you'd feel when you struggle and then get ridiculed by multiple people at every turn - not great I presume), to people that solely focus on making it impossible for you to progress (ineffective against experienced killers but the worst thing for beginners). I get that killers can be very annoying too (although, I can't think of many more options than animation spamming and excessive slugging from the top of my head, feel free to list a few more though). The main difference between survivors and killers is that survivors can always force the match to end. The killer can't.
If a killer is facing a bully squad, that can just toy around with them, then the killer will not be able to end the match at will. A group of survivors however can. It's not great but when the killer is a jerk that refuses to end the match, you can force them to down you, which will result in you dying eventually. The struggling killer from earlier, that can barely get a down (much less a hook), is unable to do that. I mean, what are they going to do? Suddenly repair these gens themself? Unlikely.
To be clear, I do not condone bullying in any form and I am all for removing it from the game. However, the normal gameplay loop will always be impacted by any changes made to tackle this issue, so it's hard to fix without creating new problems that could potentially be worse for the game overall.
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Of all time:
1) Caitlyn 3Genner II
2) Slog Merchant III
3) Skull Merchant I
Right now:
1) Slog Merchant III
2) Knight
3) Trickster
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618271#Comment_3618271
Some killers are weak but that does not change the fact. Killer is power role. Kill rates favours killers. It was around 60% when they shared it last time.
If we were looking for power role, killer is power role right now. If people really asking 80 - 90% killrate, this will never happen. There will be zero reason to play survivor and it's already so bad atm.
No matter how good you are, if your killer limits you beneath what the survivors achieve, then you are not the power role. That doesn't mean you absolutely cannot win (sometimes a single down can lead to everything falling into place) but it does mean that you are not in control and rely on the survivors making (sometimes massive) mistakes instead of creating opportunities for yourself.
@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618271#Comment_3618271
Any killer with a skilled player dedicated to that killer can be the power role. My Trapper is often in full control of the game, and I consider that power. Same could be said for any killer on the roster. Well, except Freddy. Sorry, @GeneralV :P
Then you are lucky not to go against the kind of people that control your match. I agree that you get pretty far just by playing good but at some point, you simply cannot keep up anymore, if your killer is too weak.
I definitely agree with that bit about Freddy. It's sad but the survivors have arguable more control over his power than Freddy himself.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618276#Comment_3618276
Party games are collections of mini-games wrapped in a central theme; Fall Guys is a game show, Mario Party is a board game, for example. You do know that an asymmetrical multiplayer game doesn't share genres with a kart racer or a fighting game, right? You do know certain genres can be mutually exclusive, right?
You do realise that an asymmetrical multiplayer game isn't a party game because it meets none of the requirements to be a party game, right? You do realise party game and asymmetrical multiplayer game aren't nebulous terms without a clearly defined meaning, right? Does Dead By Daylight contain a collection of mini-games wrapped in a central theme? No. It's not a party game.
Party games: "Games that are played at social gatherings."
This can apply to every mutliplayer game ever.
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@Raconteurminator said:
Party game is one of those terms the DBD community loves to frequently get wrong. Traditionally, a party game is just that, a type of game played at a party, usually for the entertainment of children. In so far as videogames go, a party game is one focused around mini-games. Fall Guys is a party game, Mario Party is a party game, etc.
Dead By Daylight is an asymmetrical multiplayer game, a different, clearly defined, genre altogether.
You know that one game can be associated with different genres, right? These aren't mutually exclusive.
Take any CoD game for example. They all are FPS games, but they are also associated with the genres: multiplayer, competitive, coop, shooter, action, solo player... you get the idea.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618010#Comment_3618010
Killer is power role right now
I wouldn't simplify it that much. Trapper is not the power role and neither are Clown and Freddy.
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The second question can't be answered quite that easy.
If you are playing perkless and addonless Wraith, then you're definitely not the power role. Same thing for most killers (maybe except Nurse?). If you use everything at your disposal and you play against a very capable group of survivors (SWF or solo doesn't matter at that point), that also use the strongest stuff, then you will mostly be the power role in so far, that you will be very oppressive, have a small room for mistakes and have a decent chance to win, if you play relentless. Playing nice more often than not results in a loss, though because you limit your own efficiency to the point where the survivors will outpace you.
This however varies from killer to killer. No matter how good you are as a Trapper, you will not outperform a somewhat decent Blight.
I personally would rank killers and survivors like this:
0) Comp SWFs without any limitations (pretty much unbeatable but never happens)
1) Comp Nurses and Blights with normal comp rules
2) Comp SWFs with normal comp rules
3) Comp killers in general
4) Normal public SWFs, that play to win
5) Normal public killers playing to win
6) Casual SWFs
7) Casual killers
8) Casual solos
9) Meming SWFs
10) Meming killers
Sometimes the lower half can switch around a bit depending on the map.
I think that killers should be the power role overall. In a 1v1 game there doesn't need to be a power role but in a 1v4, you have a group that finds strength in numbers against 1 more or less isolated player. That can lead to easy bullying and takes a lot of the fun away from one side, which in turn leads to longer queue times and possibly less fun for the other as well, when the game is in perfect 50/50 balance. With the killer being a bit stronger (significantly enough to make a noticeable difference but not so much, that playing survivor feels like an automatic loss) the game is in a pretty good state for the most part.
A lot of how DBD feels depends on how you approach the game and your mind set. If you go into it expecting to win every match with no trouble at all, then you're in for a rough time. If you go in and just try your best, knowing that a lot of it still comes down to rng and factors outside of your control, then you'll have a much better time and the game becomes "you-sided".
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@BubMickey07 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618070#Comment_3618070
Hopefully the survivor will have an impact like Mikaela
Please no. Not another perk that is extremely broken on release and needs 3 nerfs until it's finally in an ok spot (CoH could maybe use some small extra to help solos but it's otherwise fine).
Good perks, I'm all for but let's not repeat the CoH journey.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617734#Comment_3617734
I suppose you could change the deactivation to downing another Survivor, though I might suggest a distance requirement for that, say, within 10 meters of the Survivor after 8 seconds of being unhooked. This should prevent a hook trade meaning easy tunnel but still punish people trying to abuse it
That fixes the flashlight interaction and the tailing issue you brought up.
Why the distance requirement though? I genuinely don't see why that would be necessary. The timer I understand and don't disagree with but do you really need both?
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617766#Comment_3617766
BW as pre-drop pallets can be a RNG depends on spawn which and a little bit depth to the game play.
BWs that killers should never break are truly pointless.
Even if the killer actually wants to break them, there is not much strategy behind it, which was supposedly the point of BWs. So even in that case they are a failed concept. They don't fulfill their purpose.
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Yes and no. DBD is a competitive game because that is what most players seem to wish for. But at the same time there is also a group of players that do not want this game to be quite as competitive.
I consider myself somewhere in the middle. I want the game to be 'fair' but still random enough to allow for stupid and funny plays, that sometimes just might work.
I think the game is currently in a quite good spot. You can go into a match and just have fun fooling around but you can also sweat your ass off to that sweet, sweet victory. This is one of the reasons I started maining Hillbilly. He is fun more than anything else (at least in theory). I always run off meta builds and try to make up for it by simply playing better. For me that works well enough.
As a survivor, my favorite build always Bond + Open Handed in it. It's such an underrated combination of perks. All the information you could ever need and a lot of ways to capitalise from that.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Failed? No. Breaking them makes some loops more tolerable.
Annoying? Yes.
They are a failed concept, if you think about it. The idea was to give the killer some more ways to make a decision in how they interact with the map. But most BWs don't work that way. You either always break them or you always leave them up. There is no thinking involved.
The only exception to this rule is The Game. You can actually make a decision on that map. Opening a breakable wall allows you to traverse the map even quicker but in turn the many existent areas on that map, that only leave one way to go for the survivors are opened up and allow them to use even more pallets. There is a little bit of thinking involved here.
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Give him an addon to vault windows during the chainsaw sprint but then only allow him to injure survivors (LoPros for windows).
Another addon could set the timer for the increased turn rate to 1 second (would also make him a bit more accessible for console players).
Mother's Helpers should be merched with Black Grease. Then Mother's Helpers could reduce his movement speed during a chainsaw sprint by 20% but allow him to press a button to give him increased turn rate for 0.75 seconds at will. A hit after this would result in only one lost health state.
He could also use an addon to make him 5% faster while revving (so he'd move at 97% during that time).
Most importantly though, he should have an addon that activates whenever he is stunned and plays the voice line: "Oh no. Don't do that." by Pinhead for the survivor that stunned him. And Billy should say: "Gotta go fast." instead of his roar.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617687#Comment_3617687
There can't be more than one due to the "other Survivor being hooked deactivates it" thing. Niche scenarios where multiple Survivors are hooked would be an issue. Put it on a 45 second timer? Plenty long enough to make tunneling inefficient but not long enough to be an issue, I think. I suppose you could add a condition for being killed as well, that would be wise. Difficult to balance the interactions with flashlights but honestly they could use a buff, just not sure that's the one I want to give them.
Disabled during EndGame, of course. No collision, dropping pallets or fast actions disable it. Anything that would disable BT or DS applies as well.
Seems reasonable. But I was mostly thinking about what would happen, if an invincible survivor followed the killer around to pallet or flashlight save their team mate with absolutely nothing the killer could do to avoid it. As long as they would be able to do any of that, you'd just punish killers all around for hooking, which in turn would lead to slugging becoming the go to strategy. Then we'd have the same discussion again with base kit Unbreakable.
Buffing flashlights is one thing (something I don't necessarily disagree with) but this is not the way to go.
@Raptorrotas said:
Wow what a nicely flourished nerf nurse thread.
- Problem: "Many killers except [Top killer name hete] have problems"
- Solution: "nerf [Top killer name here] so they have that problem too."
Just buiff the weaker killers to be on par with the other charactets on their side. Whys it so hard to use this logic for killers? Theres real game mechanics to rweak compared to the survivors' solo/swf discourse where its a matter of third party apps and player agency.
If it was that easy, don't you think we'd have more discussions about that? The truth is you can't just buff Trapper, Wraith, Clown and the likes to be on par with A tier killers without them becoming atrocious to play against. And I don't know about you but I kind of like playing survivor every once in a while and not feeling like I want to dc in the first 15 seconds as well as my killer queue times not being an hour long.
The idea is to close the gap between high and low tier killers as far as possible and then rebalance the game around that.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617681#Comment_3617681
Make them completely intangible until they perform a rushed or conspicuous action or until another Survivor is hooked.
As long as there is only one at a time, they don't have collision, can't drop pallets or use flashlights during that time, I am fine with that suggestion. Also, this should have a max time limit. Otherwise you'd have 1 survivor that doesn't do anything and just waits for their guaranteed hatch escape.
We don't need an invincible survivor running after the killer and making it completely impossible for them to progress. Much less multiple survivors like that.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617491#Comment_3617491
We should just gut tunneling and THEN apply a basekit effect.
Having a basekit effect whilst tunneling is still available as an option does absolutely zilch.
Could you elaborate a bit further what you mean by "gutting"?
I am all for nerfing tunneling and camping and then pushing towards a more pleasant gameplay loop but I do not like the idea of completely removing them as it would remove agency over the killer's play style, which then makes the game more repetitive and predictable. I would like to see these strategies to be way more situational but still effective when done correctly.
For example: When 3 survivors run around their hooked team mate, then camping should be a valid strategy. Or when a survivor runs up to the killer, after they were recently unhooked, then the killer should be able to punish them.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617576#Comment_3617576
I don't like to see it, but I don't blame people for disliking current Freddy.
Extremely boring power, after all.
You literally fall asleep...
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You sweaty, sweaty killer main. How can you be so toxic as to not watch her kindly bm you before leaving through the hatch?! What an absolute heel!
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617390#Comment_3617390
I think i made my point about that already, so lets step back from more or less offtopic that one killer (Billy) is debateable or not, and go back to the actual topic.
Wouldnt't you agree that my statement killers went downhill compared to the past is in general true?
There is a thread about which killers survivor like and which not. Killer wale (?) made a big survey about that. And even there you can see that there are more hated killers from the post Blight era i am talking about then the entire rest combined. Sure, pre Blight has also some stinkers like Hag or Clown, yet not as many in comparison as the new era.
Now, since you made the argument that popularity is a strong indicator if a killer is liked: Which killers are popular? If we ignore Chucky and Alien since they are new, what are the popular killers? From the new era, Trickster (probably because of rework) is at 2,6% the most popular one, the rest falls off.
From the 10 least played killers, 6 are from the "new ara". Half of them. Twins, Artist, Singularity, Knight, Cenobite, Skull Merchant (thank god).
Personally, everybody can think of that what he wants. Its fine to like Skull Merchant. But the statement is, according to the people very true.
Fair enough.
Wouldn't you agree that my statement killers went downhill compared to the past is in general true?
No. I disagree. I think the killer design after Blight is way better than you give it credit for. Not every killer is the most beloved of all time and there are also some that I'd rather not have to play against but this is not unprecedented.
Twins: A good example of an interesting concept poorly executed. The reason they aren't played are their bugs and cooldowns as well as the fact that they aren't visually appealing to many. They are flawed but not a terrible design. Playing against Victor can be fun but some changes are definitely in order.
Trickster: A killer that will never be fun to play against but it's not like that is something new. Legion and Hag aren't fun to play against either. He has a solid player base and though I personally don't like him, I see how he would be fun for others.
Nemesis: Started a bit similar to Trickster in that many hated playing against him. By now though, you see a lot more people that claim they like playing against him or at the very least don't mind. He is a fun killer to play as and offers interesting counterplay. Not quite what I'd call a lose-lose killer because you do have counterplay that leaves you in a favorable position, if done correctly.
Pinhead: I never quite understood the argument that he was so horrible to play against for solo survivors. Especially now with the improved HUD, you have so much information at your disposal, that coordination against this killer is not hard. There are only so many reasons for a survivor not to work on objectives after all. In chase, he offers a lot of possibilities to play around his power and he is also fun to play for the most part. Sadly, there is always a new bug to make him unpleasant to play as.
Artist: Not the greatest killer to play against because normal looping doesn't work. However, her counterplay is still very much existent and dare I say even interesting. A lot more engaging than Hag in my opinion. She is also interesting to play because you have the ability to pressure survivors across the map and can play in many interesting ways. The key to her is to find ways to cut off survivors. Not my kind of killer and judging by her pick rate not that well received by others either but I can see why someone would play her and when I do, I have fun.
Sadako: I am too biased on this one to judge. I much preferred her old version. She was weaker, yes, but also more fun in my opinion.
Dredge: Has a decent player base and is also a somewhat interesting killer to play against. Not among my favorites but I don't mind him overall.
Wesker: Peak killer design. Fun to play as and against for many. In a very good spot regarding balance too.
Knight: Yeah... I don't like him. He is fun for some people but I don't like the concept of having an AI playing for you. Apart from that, there are so many things you need to learn about how he does and doesn't work, that I am never sure, if something is a bug or just the way he is designed. He would have been better received, if they hadn't botched his release that bad. I find him uninteresting to play against as well.
Slog Merchant: I hate her with a passion. She is in my opinion, BHVR's worst failure yet and that will not change any time soon.
Singularity: Good design in theory but the numbers are off. When survivors know how bad the numbers behind his overclock mode are, they should never get hit during that time and also don't waste any resources (even with 4 survivors slip streamed you can't get a hit). This makes the Soma Family Photo a necessity rather than an option and is the main reason why people use Coup de Grâce on this killer. Singularity is fun to play though and not bad to play against.
Alien: Fun killer to play as and not too bad to play against when you actually use the turrets and mind game. The hitbox is inconsistent though (seems to change almost every patch), which makes the Xenomorph less appealing to play and then there was this BHVR moment, when they decided to revert a buff, that they had never actually tested. Weird decision.
Chucky: Was one of my favorite killers to play as on release but the removal of his flicks now forces you to play around with the scamper a lot more, which in my opinion is less interesting for both sides. Slice & Dice has a lot less utility than before, which greatly limits the for me most fun component of this killer. Next time they release a killer, I'll wait for the first nerf before I buy them.
That is 8/13 (~61.5%) killers I like to play as and against. This is close to 2/3. So it's really not that bad.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617325#Comment_3617325
Excuse me? Go on google or youtube, it takes 10 seconds to multile rankings where poeple voted for most fun killer, older and new ones. Here is a random one that poped out instantly, apparently with half a million votes. The killers i named are more or less (suprise!) exactly where i placed them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Dw3F9led0
#11 Hillbilly
#4 Demogorgon
#3 Oni
#2 Huntress
#1 Blight
Not every vote is the same of course, but it all comes down that the named killers are placed very high. And they are also placed VERY high for survivors.
That is why, i call them the golden standard. And no suprise, they share similar design philosophys.
It is perfectly fine to have controversal opinions, but please stop questioning if it is true that Hillbilly, Blight or Demogorgon are the most beloved killers in DBD.
That's a good 1 year and 8 months ago. But for the sake of this argument, I'll consider it as 'recent'. It is true that Blight is one of the most beloved killers in DBD (always ranked highly and a pick rate that reflects that, even though he is a dlc character) but the same can hardly be said in good faith when it comes to Hillbilly. He is one of the original killers, that everyone has access to and yet his pick rate is still abysmal. If he was such a great killer to play, then his pick rate would reflect that. That isn't controversial but a fact.
Also, number 11 (especially back then with only 27 killers) is in the better half but nowhere near the golden standard. If half a million people consider him fun to play, then it's a bit weird that we don't see him nearly as often as most of the lower ranked killers on this list. I follow the stats on Nightlight pretty closely and though they are not the most reliable source, it is notable that his pick rate is always less than 2% and barely changing.
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I like that.
Can we add 2% faster carrying speed per stack too? It wouldn't be crazy strong but definitely nice to have. I would also love to see this in combination with Agitation and Iron Graps in end game.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617269#Comment_3617269
Isnt't that the point of hex perks? High risk, high reward?
Yeah, though the reward isn't all that high for the most part. Especially now that most survivors know common totem spawns. So you are left with a very high risk and the potential for a decent but not very high reward.
They can still work but most of the time you'd be better off using something else (not even meta perks, necessarily).
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617270#Comment_3617270
Most killers are amazing? You personaly dislike half of them and even calling them mistakes #########. How low is your standard?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617279#Comment_3617279
Cool.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617275#Comment_3617275
Check out any relevant vote with many participants about which killers are fun to play. Billy is almost always top 10 or at least very close to that. If you personally agree or not is your thing of course and i respect that opinion. How i see it is that a killer who is in the top 1/3 to play as and against is extremly rare, so i think it is safe to say we can considere Billy still one of the best killers we have.
I agree tho, he is not as amazing as he used to be. But that is just my opinion.
Show me the votes you are referring to, please. The only recent votes I found were the ones rating killers by how fun they are to play against. Billy has always been considered great to play against but playing as him is a different experience. And that is coming from someone who has mained this killer for 2 years.
I don't think a lot of people would rate Billy as that fun to play. At least not for more than one game at a time. After all, that would imply that his pick rate would be quite decent. But it isn't. He is always one the of the least played killers because he is extremely frustrating, which cannot be the golden standard.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617118#Comment_3617118
I didn't mean to trash talk billy or billy players btw, but mostly people who say billy is their favorite killer to go against, because most of the times this is the reason
These are the kind of people who'd get mad if you M1ed at a TL wall for example (oh god not a m1lly!). Deadlynaya made a very relatable tweet about it a few days ago too that basically sums this up
I got that it was a joke. 👍️
But I can say that I used to be able to get much better results playing M2 only Billy only a year ago. By now, you just don't have the time anymore. An insta down isn't worth much when it takes longer to land than 5 M1s. His remaining decent maps are few and far between (I miss old Red Forest), invisible collisions become more of an issue and most maps they released over the last years are terrible for him.
It really hurts because he doesn't just become weaker but also a lot less enjoyable. Why would anyone play Billy, if his power doesn't work most of the time anyway? You have many alternatives, that are also less punishing to play.
But of course many don't realise it because on paper Billy didn't change much since his nerf. He even got a nice buff, that in theory should make him a lot better to play. However, a killer with that many issues (in desperate need of qol updates, extreme map dependency and a power that on a good day is decent but not great) needs more than that.
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Are killers allowed to dc when they have to play against a bot? No? Then dc penalties should stay for survivors too.
Have you played against bots before? It's mind numbingly boring. I'd rather the match ends then having to play against bots.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617143#Comment_3617143
I never said anything else? Your opinion is in the pool of opinions and not excluded. But just because you scream the loudest does not make it more important then the others. Like i said, the majority disagrees with what you say about Billy.
That isn't true. Because @radiantHero23 didn't disagree that Billy is great to play against. He stated, that he is not in a good spot because he is horrible to play, which is correct.
The golden standard should be killers that are great for both sides and that is just not true for Hillbilly. Not anymore. He has about 3 realms where his power is actually good and even then he is extremely addon and perk reliant. All of this leads to a lot of frustration when playing as him.
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They can be good on the right maps and the right killers but mostly they are very unreliable.
One match, you stomp because of them and the next all your totems are gone in the first 60 seconds.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617233#Comment_3617233
doesn't an m2 killer getting save value mean they basically become an m1 killer, and why is that an issue? since when m1 killers are an issue? i don't understand this argument please someone enlighten me.
My thoughts exactly.