Xernoton
Xernoton
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632014#Comment_3632014
while survivors have the upper hand in high MMR.
Questionable. We dont know the current statistics, but those in the past showed that in high MMR, the killrate for killers were equal if not higher then on lower MMR.
Probably because we have killer players that also go on huge win streaks. There is a minory that dominate everyone else. Either because are simply so much better or because they use the stronest stuff in the game. However, the general kill rates even with those outliers, is about the same as what would be expected.
Also keep in mind, that these kill rates are for the highest 5% MMR on each individual killer. Not the highest 5% MMR in general. There is a good chance the top 10% Nurse MMR is still higher than the top 5% Freddy MMR.
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I actually have a meme play style I call Bodyguard Bubba. I will pick one survivor in the lobby as the client and every time another survivor comes close, they get the chainsaw. This started when I face camped a Nea that had teabagged me one too many times with 3 Bills with flashlights swarming the hook. In end game chat she asked me why and I responded that I didn't trust these old men and had to protect her.
For a parte friend, I'd pick Ace. He knows how to have a good time.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631981#Comment_3631981
Well, I suppose that settles it.
But still, how frustrating. Over 5 years of playing this game and I never had a trial as infuriating as this one.
And to think they will go unpunished...
At the very least now I am certain Boil Over should have never been buffed, if I wasn't already. It is causing way too much harm.
Were you not around at the time when the RPD library had that issue?
I remember reading the patch notes for the Boil Over buff back then and immediately thinking: "But what about RPD and Mother's Dwelling?" That was the time when No Mither of all perks almost made me disconnect every time I saw it.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631980#Comment_3631980
This is objectively wrong because very good killers have proven they can win regardless of what the survivors use. Momo is undefeated as a Blight main, for example. If SWF truly is strong, he and other good killers would lose. It simply has no logical reasoning to think high experienced goes to survivor. It seems to be killers are overpowered in both lower skill and high skill too.
I agree with OP that the game has severe balance issues and it really is mind boggling why it is not addressed.
Pub stompers basically. Let him play in a tournament against people that are just as good and suddenly it all becomes a lot closer. Is this really such a surprise? The people at the very top, that use the best things in the game will stomp everyone else.
But in general, what @Astel said is true. Killers have the upper hand in lower MMR, while survivors have the upper hand in high MMR. There are exceptions of course (mainly Blight and Nurse because they are so much stronger than the other killers) but as a rule of thumb, this works pretty well. Don't forget, not all killers are Nurse and Blight. We also have Freddy, Myers and Trapper, which represent the other extreme. Some killers are too strong, others too weak.
The game does have some balance issues but the devs aim at a 60% kill rate. By that standard, the game should be in a pretty good spot. The last official kill rates where from 6.1.0, when killers were the strongest they had ever been and the kill rates were pretty close to that goal. Since then, we've only had Nightlight to go by which has always tracked a slightly lower kill rate (mostly about 55%).
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7 seconds stun. Deactivates upon entering a locker and disables flashlights for the time it's active.
Stronger when the killer tunnels but weaker when they don't.
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Billy is instant death. My boy crushed a man's skull with his bare hands. That means he is at least twice as strong as normal humans. He also has infinite stamina and is faster than Usain Bolt, who only managed a speed of about 10.4 m/s. Billy easily manages 13 m/s and even 15.6 m/s on a good day (overdrive + engravings). Imagine getting kicked by these legs! David would never be the same again. Considering that Billy also comes with the perk Enduring, which implies that he and David share their high pain resistance, David is dead. It's not even a fight.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631418#Comment_3631418
Yes, I'm glad you're able to distinguish that survivors will kill themselves on their first hook for a variety of reasons. Within those reasons are the core problems that lack a solution to why you'll find survivors disconnecting.
Nobody wants to play against Skull Merchant. Nurse and Blight are oppressive and shouldn't exist as they currently are. Why should your random teammate stick around to gain little to no points for being tunneled and camped the entire game to help strangers? Ultimate Weapon is left as-is for months due to the developer's lack of foresight when designing a perk that synergies best with killers that don't need the help. The killer is slugging, and there's no concede option to bleed out. Why does Knock Out even exist? It's worthless toward SWF, yet creates a toxic experience for the weakest role in the game currently, solo queue.
I had people tell me why they disconnected / gave up (although it was kind of hard to understand them between slurs). You even see some streamers act like that.
I agree that nobody wants to play against Slog Merchant and I hate her just as much as the next guy. But when people give up just because it's one of the 31 killers they dislike you have a problem less with the game but with the players. If it was only Nurse, Blight and SM, then the other killers shouldn't see that many people give up from the get go. But they do. And it doesn't matter what perks you use as a killer. Literally anything is enough to offend someone. Hell, Huntress Lullaby is enough to get you hate.
All of these niche scenarios are not the main part of the game and they are not when most people give up. It's the normal games, where someone will suicide right off the bat, that I have an issue with. Not the ones that are over anyway. If I have 2 people dead and there's 2 gens remaining, then I couldn't care less and I think that goes for most people. The survivors played the match out until it was over, which is the only thing I'm asking for.
Why should your random teammate stick around to gain little to no points for being tunneled and camped the entire game to help strangers?
Because it's the game they queued up for. They know that this is part of the game and they know that it could happen to them. It's unfortunate that this situation is as bad as it is but if you don't want to play the game, then why do you queue up for it to begin with? There will always be something unfun in an online game. There is no way around it. But when you dislike the majority of it, then don't play it. It's that simple.
Frankly, I think solo queue is a nightmare partly because something like that happens frequently. In 5 games you will probably have someone that rage quits. Not at the very end but when everything is still open. This is what further reduces solo queue enjoyment.
@Zraith said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631418#Comment_3631418
I think a single instance when someone was giving up on your losing game is just not a strong enough argument to dismiss this issue.
It hasn't been only a single instance but it was one of the more memorable examples. I had everything going against me and they still gave up. The first hook you get, someone often suicides. Why? Do they have the power to look into the future and see how the match will go? I don't. The game isn't over until it's over. You can win as a killer even when 5 gens are completed and you only got 1 hook (unlikely but possible) and you can still get everyone out alive when the killer has 5 hooks at 5 gens. Or you could, if you wouldn't give up the second something doesn't go your way.
I know I only ranted about survivors on this one because it was specifically about hook suicides but killers do that too. Nobody forces you to play the game. So if you don't want to, then don't. Otherwise you know what to expect. You could end up going against something you do not particularly like.
If you cannot handle that, then you should play a different game.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631357#Comment_3631357
If the game and matchmaking were balanced better, that would be a valid argument, but there's currently a lot of broken ######### in the game that hands you victories as a killer that solo simply isn't able to counter compared to a SWF group. The game's direction isn't healthy for solo, so they'd rather not fight a losing battle. Playing against a SWF versus a solo is immediately noticeable in most cases. Until the devs begin to address the issues as to why people are primarily going to suicide on the hook, they will continue to do that.
Solo, unfortunately, isn't equipped to deal with various strategies like a SWF can with their level of communication and coordination on voice. Matchmaking aims for speed rather than accuracy, and you can tell very early on in a match if it's a waste of time so people would sooner go next.
I have had games in which I was about to lose but then someone hook suicided. People will find a reason to give up.
Even when you play perkless Hillbilly on Lery's and have no hooks at 2 gens left this happens. Are you about to tell me that I was too oppressive and solo queue just can't handle a killer that gets their first down after 3 gens have already been completed? This is a poor excuse for people that just don't actually want to play the game.
Just a short list of reasons I've seen people give up for:
- They didn't like the map.
- They didn't like the map but they themself chose that realm.
- Killer had Lethal Pursuer (spoiler alert: sometimes they didn't).
- They got found first.
- Someone else used a pallet that they needed and now they went down because of it.
- Flashlight save didn't work.
- Pallet stun didn't work.
- Mind gamed around shack.
- Caught off guard by stealth killer.
- Hit by a chainsaw.
- Teabagging then going down in 5 seconds. That one was a dc though.
- The killer wasn't to their liking.
- Another survivor went down quickly.
- They didn't like the killer's perks.
- They didn't like the killer's addons.
- They got hooked in basement.
- Killer didn't fall for their bait.
- The killer uses blindness perks or addons to counter WoO.
- Someone else died (with 5 gens completed).
- Killer brought a map offering.
- Other survivors brought a map offering.
- Killer brought a sacrificial ward.
- Other survivors brought a sacrificial ward.
- Doctor kept everyone in madness 3 at all possible times.
- Killer plays good.
- Their build gets countered (happened to me fairly recently, still have the screenshots).
- Killer has Lightborn.
Hell, I had seen people dc back when the RPD library and Boil Over exploit was still in the game for the sole reason that I refused to humor them.
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Oh my god, it's [insert killer] on [insert map] with [insert perks and addons] and they also [insert play style]. So unfun. I have to suicide on hook now.
That's pretty much the mindset of some people. In reality, the reason they rage quit is probably more that something didn't go their way. They want to have their cake and eat it too.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631149#Comment_3631149
"It needs both incentives to spread hooks and penalties for hard tunneling."
Back in the day we had incentives for spreading Hooks. E.g. BBQ. But it did not work, because Killers can get the incentive even when they tunneled.
Incentives dont work. At all. You can think about incentives when the penalties work, but given BHVRs track record, their penalties are too lenient to do anything.
"The Eruption meta was stupid, no argument there, but saying you had to try to lose implies that killers were incredibly overpowered during that time."
Oh come on. It was super-easy to play with this Build. You got so much Slowdown, it was not funny anymore.
I mean incentives like: Ignore up to 4 perks when you don't tunnel. Or maybe a friendly reminder that you could also go for someone else (maybe show the killer the location of 1 survivor with the least hook stages after they get a hook). Or bring back BBQ stacks with the extra that you cannot get any more stacks, once someone is dead and it only activates at at least 2 stacks.
I said it needs both. Not just one or the other. Punish a killer for everything they do and they will double down on playing nasty (give survivors a 60 seconds DS stun and even I will start hardcore tunneling every single game and check profiles for the easiest target). Give them incentives alone and they will not stop unless the incentive is even stronger than having someone dead early on, which would probably end up replacing one issue with another.
It was easy to play with this build, agreed. Because you could try and hold a game hostage. However, that was frowned upon even among the most hardcore killer mains. That will also be no longer possible once the next update goes live. On top of that, every regression perk, that didn't need the killer to progress isn't good anymore. CoB and OC are incredibly bad. This again, was also around the time when survivors would kill themselves on first hook for any reason they could think of. Yet the kill rates didn't exceed 60%.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3631058#Comment_3631058
Sadly this will not work. You would need to implement something which is so stupid strong that it would be highly imbalanced. Because removing someone as early as possible is the best and easiest way for the Killer to win. A 3v1 with anything more than 1 Gen left is a win for the Killer. At this point, they can just farm points, go for Hooks and do whatever, they won.
Even during Eruption-Meta Killers were tunneling and there you actually had to try to lose a game as Killer if you ran Eruption/CoB/Overcharge.
Tunneling is just too beneficial and giving rewards for not tunneling will not work out, unless it is way too strong.
It needs both incentives to spread hooks and penalties for hard tunneling.
We had this before and though it wasn't perfect, it was a lot better than this. DS often did nothing when you weren't tunneling, so you could ignore up to 4 perks per game as long as you spread hooks. But when you did tunnel, it could hold you back significantly.
The thing with the Eruption meta is way overexaggerated. Come on. That was 6.1.0 and during that time we had survivos hook suiciding in almost every 2nd game. Yet the kill rates still were about 60% (61.2% iirc). The Eruption meta was stupid, no argument there, but saying you had to try to lose implies that killers were incredibly overpowered during that time. Which would not have resulted in a 60% kill rate but something way higher.
You can't just punish a killer for everything they do for the sole reason that it is unpleasant to play against. At that point, killers cannot adapt their play styles anymore. Which leaves them with pretty much no options when survivors show counterplay for normal chasing. "Just chasing" is not effective. You take forever to get into a chase when a survivor starts running early on, chases take forever to end when you let yourself get baited towards strong set ups and you will have to deal with way too many resources, if you play around the entire map. This is why you often see popular content creators run killers for multiple gens. Because they don't adapt.
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Huntress. For the life of me I cannot get used to playing her without a crosshair. So my hatchets will fly in all different directions but mostly not hit the survivor.
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Still an awful killer.
Instead of having little to no counterplay in 3 gens, she now has little to no counterplay in chase. Her setting up a drone is enough to force you to leave the loop. You either give her the pallet or you get hit. Great design. If you don't then, she'll immediately start building up bloodlust while passively working on an injured state, extra haste and you getting hindered.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3630387#Comment_3630387
But 4 players hatch escape only happen if 5 Gens were done...
The game still wasn't over. Imagine, if the killer got 7 hooks and suddenly everyone would die just because they brought an addon.
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Yeah 4 man hatch escapes were so fair. /s
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@BlightedTrapper said:
You were hit before the vault animation ended, I don't see the issue. I've been hit by a Wesker through a pallet after clearing it and moving 5 feet away, this is nothing whatsoever.
New Wesker tech?
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@ImWinston said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3630031#Comment_3630031
I agree with you 100%, but why use Deadline (OMG this perk is a joke) instead of Resilience?🤣
It's not a question of meta perk, but of simple logic
This same problem is also on the killer's side... Why use "Machine Learning" (fr example) if Sloppy, Pop and Scourge Hook exist? On the killer side however there is always something interesting (I'm thinking for example Friends 'til the End or Batteries Included), on the surv side it's just a sad situation
I think these perks could maybe be interesting, if they weren't quite as situational. In solo queue, you will not use a situational perk because you have no guarantee that it will work and in a SWF there are other better things you can use to sometimes fit the same niche.
Although Deadline just isn't a good perk. It's hard to balance on one hand because extra skill checks can be pretty beneficial for survivors (just look at Autodidact), which would make it a very strong perk (maybe too strong in some builds) but on the other, the downsides are so harsh that using it is too big of a risk.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629760#Comment_3629760
The problem is even if you want to use those perks, you will not because perks have so much downsides. Like nobody is expecting meta changer perk unless they release another MfT level perk. But BHVR is releasing perks with so much drawbacks.
Let's look last 3 survivor perks:
Nicolas Cage Perks:
Dramaturgy: Not meta but i am seeing this perk here and there. Because even it's not super strong, it's not weakened. It's a bit risky but fun perk.
Plot Twist: That's decent perk honestly and even it's not meta i am seeing this perk pretty often. Why? Because it's useful and fun.
Scene Partner: That's only perk i almost never seeing it. Why? First it has very long cooldown. And second, scream is giving free information to killer. Just why? Reduce the cooldown or remove the scream. Why this perk has so much drawbacks?
Ellen Ripley Perks:
Chemical Trap: This perk had potential to be more popular like Wiretap and Blastmine. Not meta ofcourse but more use. But again, so much drawbacks. Killer should not see the trap. If they see, they will refuse to break it. And that's means you need to use this perk on god pallets for value. It's shame on BHVR to making mid-tier perks weaker with non-sense drawbacks.
Light-Footed: Similar issue. You need to be healthy and it deactivates after fast vault and it has long cooldown. Gezzzz BHVR, is this perk super strong? Are you real? Remove one of them. Make it work even if you are injured or it should not deactivate after fast vault. I loved to use this perk but i just give up for the problems i mentioned.
Lucky Star = This perk is weak but at least no stupid drawbacks. And this perk has good synergy with Head On builds. So i am using it for this build. The only W perk from Ellen.
Alan Wake Perks:
Champion of Light: This perk probably won't be meta but it will be toy for flashlight squads. I am guessing they will use this perk for boost Alan Wake sells and then they will nerf it. History won't lie. Happened with MfT, happening with UW atm and gonna happen with CoL.
Boon: Illumination: This perk could help new players but it locked behind licensed character. And this perk is offering nothing to veteran players. Easily worst boon perk and one of the worst perks ever. If they won't buff it after PTB, i don't see this perk will get any use.
Deadline: Another good concept but then another wasted potential. This perk could see use in some builds but BHVR just so scared to release good perks. Like why this perk is only working when you are injured and plus adding hard skill checks. If you scared because of Hyperfocus, let me tell you BHVR: Res is only one perk slot and probably will do so much better than Deadline + Hyperfocus. Just give us one useful perk, so we can have some fresh content.
What is the point of survivor only chapter when you are adding useless perks? At least full chapters are offering new killer, even if perks are garbage new killer is always fine. But what is Alan Wake offering me? One bully toy which will be 100% nerfed after sells goes down and 2 useless perks.
If you are not gonna give use some useful perks, maybe just stop to do new perks. Release new killers and call it a day. Both sides are keep getting terrible , no use perks. That's the issue.
It's been a while since I've last seen Dramaturgy and Scene Partner. Plot Twist was mostly used in niche builds purely to annoy the killer. But its usage has gone down considerably.
Chemical Trap is a very underrated perk in my opinion. It's no meta changer but it's definitely quite decent. Using it on a good pallet (one that you can actually play around) puts the killer in a difficult position where they either need to bite the bullet and break the pallet or try to play around it, which can take forever. It's no SB, Adrenaline, Resilience, We'll Make It, WoO, Lithe or Deja Vu though. So it's already bad in the minds of many players. We both know that many people only care about meta perks.
That was my point. I did not try to defend BHVR's perk design in this case. But a lower pick rate doesn't automatically mean that a perk is weak. According to Nightlight, DMS has only a 4.8% pick rate. That's pretty low considering its strength. But as long as there are better perks, that is enough for many players not to use it.
I definitely agree that many perks that have come out recently aren't good (the overwhelming majority tbh) and they could be buffed / reworked (sometimes number changes cannot balance a flawed design). However, I object the idea that meta perks are more popular than anything else simply because the alternatives are all bad. Sometimes they just require thought.
I am still in awe at how few people actually run Bond in solo queue. Yes, it's a perk that a full SWF on comms will not need but in solo queue it's extremely helpful. It tells you what your team mates are doing, gives you useful information about who is chased in what area (indicating which areas to avoid later on), shows you where to go for heals, gives you an idea of the killer's position, shows you where other people work on gens (so you also know where the gens are) and you can even use it to prevent a 3 gen. Yet, how many people actually use it? Not that many because other perks are easier to use. Like WoO for example.
It's the same for killers. Whenever a new killer comes out, the first thing you'll see most people (especially popular content creators) do to find out their strength is to slap the same generic build on them, that they use on every single killer in the game. And then they find out that what they're doing doesn't work and immediately blame it on the killer being too weak. It can't be that maybe a different build would work better after all.
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@okaayletsgoo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629871#Comment_3629871
Cleared the vault and almost on my feet running away, she swung from the side and turned through the window to hit. No it doesn't make sense and it wouldn't make sense regardless of the killer. A straight on lung MAYBE should hit there but from the side? Never.
Since all killers have the same hitbox with lunges and killers have arms (strange concept, I know) they can reach through the window. I mean, just measure your own arm. I doubt your arms will be much shorter than 50 cm. Add in the length of the weapon and you easily get 65 cm. Which is more than in this video.
Plus, the server did not detect the hit the same way you see it. It can't. It only uses the information that your game and the killer's game provide. This however is influenced by latency. Even small delays like 50ms (keep in mind, both you and the killer have latency, so neither of you get a perfectly accurate visual feedback of the other's position, which the game has to take into account) make a big difference. Especially considering the high speeds of a fast vault and the killer's lunge.
This was a perfectly valid hit. It looked a bit weird because Chucky is so small. But the hitbox was no issue here.
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It used to be Shadowborn on Hillbilly. Now that I don't have to give up a perk slot for it anymore, I really don't know what else I would run. Lightborn and Shadowborn used to be my comfort build. Curving and picking up survivors without a care in the world feels great. I might run BBQ again, if I feel extra serious.
I only stopped using it because I felt that I relied on it a bit too much.
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I get gen rushed, you get tunneled.
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It doesn't matter, if these perks are good or bad. As long as they aren't better than the established meta, they will be considered weak and nobody will run them. At least not for long.
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@jesterkind said:
If it's a 3-gen situation, there really isn't much of a point playing it out. Though, that said, far too many people immediately DC or give up as soon as they see Skull Merchant without actually ascertaining how they're playing, and that's pretty indefensible. That's straight up just leaving because you don't like the killer at that point.
As for how to fix her, you don't need to radically overhaul her power. You just need to lean into it being versatile and strategic, while lessening its direct lethality and removing certain addons. It's already capable of doing far more than 3-genning, just not very well. So... make it better at those things with number buffs, and retool her addons to better support those playstyles, while nerfing its area-denial capability by removing Lock-On. That's my pitch.
While I agree that disconnecting isn't the right move, you immediately know the match will not be fun the moment you see her drones for the first time. It doesn't matter, if she intends to defend a 3gen or only wants to showcase her lack of counterplay in chase. You're screwed either way and there is no fun to be had. Deactivating drones isn't fun. Breaking a 3gen for 20 minutes isn't fun. And a killer that presses M2 to immediately put you in a lose-lose situation with no effort isn't fun either.
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Oh, so people won't do that to me, if I don't tunnel or slug? It seems a lot of players have missed that memo.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629293#Comment_3629293
package that with the rocket launcher and he might be B tier idk
Maybe allow 2 Blights in one match. With rocket launchers and sentry guns. That might bring him all the way up to B+ tier
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Old Iri Tag but instead of an instadown it’s an instant mori like Tombstone
I like the way your mind works. Beautiful. Diabolical even.
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Ace. He is special. He is beautiful. He is strong. He is smart. He is an abomination.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628740#Comment_3628740
My problem with map changes , they are nerfing them so hard or barely changing.
Like they destroyed Borgo, now it's only deadzones are everywhere. And then we have Garden of Joy which nothing changed on this map.
I just don't get it, i don't understand their terrible map balancing.
Yeah, this is the other extreme. It's fine to have a dead zone on a map but maybe don't make it half the map! This is pretty similar to what happened to Cowshed as well. One half is a giant dead zone and the other is super safe. So killers want to play around one side of the map while survivors will stay on the other, if possible. This is also the problem with Haddonfield, although the safe and dead zones aren't distributed in that way.
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Yes, please! It's so fun not knowing what to expect when you load into a match and it also teaches you to appreciate some perks you otherwise wouldn't use.
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I'd rather they take their time fixing maps instead of giving them the GoJ and Ormond treatment, where pretty much everything remains the same and (almost) none of the issues are actually fixed.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628456#Comment_3628456
I'm inclined to agree with you that a killer that is primarily anti loop is not fine but then what is Huntress? Her power certainly counts as an anti loop and she doesn't have anything else either (arguably she has map pressure thanks to snipes but even in lower skill lobbies she is not an issue). Yet she is not usually considered a badly designed killer. The same goes for Nemesis and Bubba.
The reason Huntress is a well designed killer is interactive gameplay. I dont see how Huntress is the anti loop killer, since she actually can be looped. Survivors can use terrain, loops, unique pathing and pretty much any other form of chase related stuff. Yet, she is still strong and the definition of skill expression. A strong huntress is scary and powerful, but still fair (if the RNG allows fairness).
We can not exactly say this about the killers mentioned in the Video.
Then what about Nemesis? His power certainly qualifies as anti loop but you can still loop him. I'd say anti loop is pretty much everything that gives you an extra edge in a loop. To that degree you can argue that every killer has some (sometimes very weak) form of anti loop. Pyramid Head is also an example of a killer with anti loop (in theory one of the more oppressive ones because he can hit you threw walls) that is still loopable.
The killers Choy mentioned weren't all taken into consideration because of their anti loop powers but because of how they encouraged the survivors and killer to play around rather than against each other. Against an Artist, you are screwed in chase, so you focus on not playing against her but winning the game by minimising interaction. Sadako is in a weirdly similar spot, where you do not want to interact with her even though her anti loop is pretty weak.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628473#Comment_3628473
I wonder what your concept of strong for a killer is. To use your example, Trickster is strong precisely because he (currently) has RNG-based counterplay—which is to say practically none at all.
An important distinction Choy made in that video is that anti-gameplay powers, not anti-loop abilities, are problematic. New Trickster is an example of a killer whose abilities disrupt gameplay in a profound way. Nurse is another.
I did not say that Trickster is weak and I didn't mean to imply that. My point was that he isn't unfun to play against because of his strength (like Nurse and Blight with addons) but because his power is fundamentally flawed.
I know what Choy said in his video, but in most cases these 2 things are interchangeable. The exception being Hag (as I said, different play style). Nobody cares, if a killer is really strong outside of chase as long as the game plays out normally (look at mobility killers like Wraith, Xeno, Billy and Dredge for example). Sadako in her current live version is in a weird position where she isn't good in chase but at the same time she keeps her chases short because she never commits to long chases until someone is fully condemned.
Also, it was Pulsar who started talking about anti loop abilities in specific On which we agreed that they become issues when they are easy to use but aren't punishing enough to prevent spaming.
I don't think the term anti gameplay power is a good distinction either. Because then you can argue what the actual gameplay should be like. Every secondary objective could be counted as anti gameplay (even though it's something players have asked for) because you do something different from the normal gameplay loop. Iirc he explicitly mentioned Xenomorph and Singularity in that context.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628456#Comment_3628456
Because making a misplay with those Killers is PUNISHING.
You miss as Trickster? Nah, not an issue. Misplay as Knight? Meh. Artist? No biggie.
Nemesis is punished for missing his Tentacle hard. Huntress is punished for missing a hatchet. Bubba is punished for hitting objects. All of these things can be reasonably done by Survivors. You can dodge Nemi or Huntress or Bubba (maybe not Bubba but you get it)
Fair point and a criteria I definitely agree with. Chase powers should be rewarding but also punishing. But you understand why I don't think that chase powers (or anti loop) are the real problem. It's more their design. Though there needs to be a balance between punishing and feeling terrible to play. Live Billy is a good example of the latter.
Trickster is a killer that even though he isn't the strongest makes you feel like you lose at every turn. He hits you again and again and again until you go down. That wouldn't change even if he needed to hit 15 knives to injure you. So that is definitely a design flaw that makes him unfun to play against by default. He would feel a lot better to play against, if his power didn't come down to "spam until you win".
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@Gabe_Soma said:
They don't give a damn, especially for the SoloQ, which according to the latest ama, will not have any more quality of life for many future updates.
This new anti 3-gen will be yet another useless mechanic (in this same update the gen-kick has been buffed and the 'gen tapping' removed) as well as the anti-camp.
They pretend to try but what they really care about is selling new content and skins to keep the Swfs on track.
Just look at the perks of the last 2 survs released, no need to add more.
Broken mechanics like hug-tech and oni's 180 come to be considered fair because they don't even have the will to go look at them.
3 years of having a blight stronger than before after a supposed nerf, a trickster buffed to the hilt without any understanding of the game are just some of the countless examples of these people's lack of competence and dedication.
The problem is less solo queue itself being in a bad spot but one player ruining the entire match for everyone else on their team in most cases. Solo queue is perfectly fine when everyone carries their weight. So I understand that further solo queue buffs aren't high on the list of priorities.
A chat wheel for communication purposes would be nice but let's be honest, the Meg that's opening a basement chest for her archives, the Claudette self-caring in a corner and the Nea killing herself on first hook won't give a damn about that. But you can't exactly balance around these players either.
If the 3 gen thing doesn't do anything, isn't that a positive? It means that the killer is not holding the game hostage, which is exactly what this mechanic is supposed to do. I think the 4.5 seconds to stop a gen from regressing is a bit much (maybe try 1 second first and see how that goes) but it will not be a buff to 3 gens.
We know that Blight's hug tech is considered an exploit by the devs and they did say, that they were going to remove it. However, looking at how Blight works, it's fair to assume that this is no easy task without completely breaking Blight in the process. When you bump against a tree and then want to rush past it, there often needs to be a little room for you to slide around the object. Otherwise you get stuck in place and your power becomes worthless. That isn't any more desirable than what we have.
Also, let's not forget what survivors got in recent years as well. A new HUD to specifically help solo queue (pretty good, if you actually use that information), base kit BT, hook grabs removed and the AFC are just some examples. So it's not like the devs don't care. They're just incredibly slow when it comes to fixing issues. There was also MFT, which became a meta perk. Killers didn't get much better perks either. UW is pretty good and Friends Til The End is nice perk that is a bit more niche. It breaks the mold, which is a good thing for both sides.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628449#Comment_3628449
What if it was on the second floor and far away on Léry's map? Are you going to get up there and walk the distance to Sniff Boon Totem?
More clearly, would you do a Sniff Boon if it was placed in a good place if you still had time?
Having time in general is different from having time to spare. Usually boons are really low on my list of priorities. Especially now that CoH isn't an issue anymore. I'd decide on the spot, if I actually have the time to spare to snuff a totem on a different floor.
If I'm around a hooked survivor / downed survivor during that time, I'll do it. The others will not be able to safely rescue that person with me being so close and I know that there aren't 4 people on gens. If I have to go out of my way to snuff the totem, then it's no longer convenient and I'm likely going to find a better use of my time.
You should always ask yourself how you spend your time as effective as possible as a killer because you have so little of it. Snuffing a boon doesn't take a lot of time but walking towards it will. In that case it's almost never worth it (exceptions being survivors who exploit certain things with the help of boons).
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Ace.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628245#Comment_3628245
No.
A Killer should not be guaranteed a hit on a Survivor no matter their skill difference.
It lacks any meaningful counterplay and is EXACTLY why old Legion was so ass. Was he going to win? No. Was he going to chase and down people with nothing they could possibly do about it? Yes.
Having anti-loop is fine. Being an anti-loop Killer primarily is not fine.
This is a slippery slope. If you give survivors counterplay in every situation (meaning killers can never guarantee hits), then you basically give them unlimited chances to make a right play and counter the killer. But it should be closer to "whoever plays better will have the upper hand in chase" with the scale leaning towards the killer because they have to go for multiple chases (sweet spot is about 10-12), if they want to win. A mistake should put you in a bad position.
Against many killers this is the case. But against others, the worst thing that's going to happen is that you need to leave the loop or drop the pallet sooner, which isn't really a huge detriment because you have so many resources to work with.
That being said, I do agree that there are some killers that really take away the back and forth of the chase. Trickster, Hag (different play style but still) and Slog Merchant come to mind. This isn't good either. It takes away the interactivity from the only part of the game that is actually interactive.
I'm inclined to agree with you that a killer that is primarily anti loop is not fine but then what is Huntress? Her power certainly counts as an anti loop and she doesn't have anything else either (arguably she has map pressure thanks to snipes but even in lower skill lobbies she is not an issue). Yet she is not usually considered a badly designed killer. The same goes for Nemesis and Bubba.
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As @Pulsar said, you want to do the exact opposite of what the survivors want you to do. If someone is that impatient for a chase there is a chance they'll start following you around while you chase the others. When that happens, they'll make themselves more vulnerable so you can get an easy hit every now and then. This slows them down even more because the survivor baiting you is not doing gens and someone else will have to heal them.
Them showing you their location by spam vaulting means they are very comfortable to be chased. This implies, that they are in a strong area (shack for example) where you don't want to chase anyway and away from their team mates. Use this information against them.
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When it's convenient I'll snuff it. For example, I could happen to hook / down / zone someone right next to it. It doesn't stop my momentum but I waste the survivors time and deny them the use of a perk. When I stumble across it randomly I'll snuff it as well but only, if I don't have anything more important to do like defending a gen or chasing.
Basically whenever I have down time and am already in the area.
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It's probably just bad luck. You can always bring a map offering, if it gets too much.
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@Foempticol said:
Typical killer main always wanting easy matches
Ahh. Good ol' "us vs. them" mentality.
Of course it's only sweaty killer players that want easy matches and effortless 4ks. It's not like there are people on both sides that just want easy wins. Definitely not.
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You wanna know something funny? Turning it off would not force you to sweat either way. You wouldn't feel a difference. P100s aren't better than anyone else.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628292#Comment_3628292
For the illumination perk part, it is really bad perk. It is BY FAR the weakest effect attached to a boon totem, and in a time where boons are barely use outside of COH in a SWF team. This perk wont be used by SWF , veteran players wont use it either and beginners players probably wont pay for a licensed survivor when they can use Deja vu or a Red map, which are arguably better. It is the same as when they release Corrective Action for Jonah and is currently one of the worst perks in the game.
So this perk is pretty much dead on release, only to be used for adepts achivements.
The argument about beginners not having access to licensed perks is a very unfortunate truth. Many perks that are amazing for beginners are like that. But their concepts still aren't bad. It's just that they drown in a sea of mediocre and unused perks because the only people that need them can't use them.
I do think that Ilumination could use some buffs but I like the concept. Locking it behind a license however isn't something I like either. As a base perk, this would be much better.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628292#Comment_3628292
They can make perk good for all players without making it broken.
New Boon for example. Will it be so much if they add gate and survivor auras too? I doubt. And it would had synergy with CoH which is even better.
But instead of making perks valuable, they are keep adding garbage survivor perks. That's why they are not seeing use. I am not even asking meta-changer perks. I am just asking make those perks viable.
But BHVR is known with ignoring survivors when it comes to survivor perks.
We said Light-Footed has so much down-side. Remove cooldown or it should work when you are injured too. But no, all suggestions are ignored and now this perk hardly seeing use. And sad point, it's fun perk. I would use it more but why i use when perk have so much downsides.
Even Quick Gambit buff is showing they just don't want to make survivor perks viable.
I don't disagree with you on the part that it could be buffed. Not at all. As it is, it is too niche and unreliable to be a real addition especially for the players that would actually need it, since they don't even know totem spawns. But I'm not sure revealing the auras of your team mates is the best way to do that, simply because it makes other perks with the same effect more and more obsolete. Also it would be weird to have 2 perks with the same activation requirement and side effect. But that's just my opinion.
I get that you don't ask for meta changing perks here but let's be honest, a perk that isn't meta won't find much use. There might be a few people that test it out at first but then everything goes back to normal and you never see these perks again. This is a normal side effect of the meta.
BHVR have been pretty cautious with their perk design for a while now and this goes for both sides. UW is the one exception that comes to mind. Most other perks have either been useless or just too gimmicky to be good. For survivor perks this is a problem specifically because gimmicky perks find no use in solo queue. Sometimes you just need a bit of set up to make these perks work but when you can't communicate, there is no real way to do that.
I believe they aren't trying to make weak or niche perks but they are affraid that whatever perks they do come up with end up as a huge controversy. With Quick Gambit I have no idea why they did that. It just defies all logic. I understand that they are cautious with gen speed boosts but on a perk that would require you to run anywhere near your team mates with the killer on your heel, that would also force you to get closer and closer to them (you can't just suddenly change directions and run through the killer after all) that doesn't make sense. Then again, we have indoor maps like The Game. So the only way to balance this perk is by reworking it from the ground up. The entire concept just can't really be balanced.
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@Toaster427 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628093#Comment_3628093
I don't care that they nerfed it.
Its the fact it was a very new and exciting mechanic for game and BHVR just completely gutted it and then just obliterated every other boon in the game.
I mean look at the new one coming out....literally nobody is going to use that...you seriously couldn't write a worse perk if you tried.
What boon perks other than CoH were changed in any way? You claim all the other boons got obliterated, so care to explain that? The truth is that this is a straight up lie. None of them received any changes positive or negative.
The new boon perk is meant to be something to help solo players. I agree that it could be stronger but it's nowhere near as bad as you claim. The real problem is that many people these days do not understand the concept of using perks to help them out where they struggle. If you only use meta perks (or perks that fit specific criteria) then of course you are not going to be as strong in other aspects. I could see Ilumination as a perk to help inexperienced solo queue players, if they made some adjustments to it and I think that's exactly what this perk is supposed to be. A helping hand for beginners.
The concept isn't bad but it could use some buffs. However, stating untruthful things like they don't consider the survivor side of things and obliterate perks (that have never gotten any changes) is not helping.
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@Config said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3627348#Comment_3627348
A bit of a different topic here, but the problem isn’t that u need to turn fast, is that the 0,5 seconds that u have at that speed of 15,6 ms with engravings is just too low to curve without going wide, I would probably either increase that time while I overdrive to something like 0,8 seconds, or u could also make so that the extra speed from overdrive only kicks in after 0,5 seconds, so it’s still the same to curve
It's 0.75 seconds actually. And you can do a 90° turn without any issues. But because you are so fast, you go in a wide arc instead of just hugging the corner and turning around it. I have tried to turn fast enough to do it like normal but to no avail so far. I'm not sure if it's just that I didn't curve it right (such speed requires insanely fast mouse movement as well) or if it can be done at all.
The only successful curves I've gotten with that speed looked something like this. With normal speed, he would have hit the pallet. But the extra speed catapulted him forward so fast that he had already gone past the car and the pallet by the time the curve was done.
There is no need to increase the time window for curves. You can do the same turn angles as before. Just not as tightly.
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@Config said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3627281#Comment_3627281
Yeah, I do agree with u, however I don’t think he’s to far of when it comes to position on the tier list, maybe a bit lower, but hardly higher, he’s very solid though, happy of how he’s now :) + thanks for taking some time to comment ur opinion here
Honestly, I do think that theoratically he has the potential to come very close to Artist, if the player was actually that insane, used the right addons, got a good map and had good rng with the clutter and tiles. They added such a crazy new mechanic that it's a double edged blade. Overdrive can be extremely beneficial but also detrimental. Even more so with the Engravings addon.
If anyone was able to actually move their camera quick enough, they might be able to do all of the normal curves at increased speed and also add entirely new tricks. The only issue is, that I'm unsure it's even humanly possible for anyone to reach that level (not quite sure, if the game allows it either but considering the existing LoPro tricks it might).
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3627281#Comment_3627281
I'm sorry to say it, friend. But he is. Maybe it's good though for you to keep on dreaming instead of waking up to the Nightmare that Freddy has become.
Well, I stand by my opinion that he isn't the weakest. Merely because I think Trapper and Clown are weaker.
But I have no ilusions regarding his strength. This is the weakest Freddy has ever been.
In that case, I wish you some very nice dreams of 4ks on GoJ and every other map of your choosing. As someone, who mains Freddy without falling into depression you deserve that.
But hey, they are willing to finally redeem ma boy Billy, so there is hope they'll do the same for Freddy, when it's his turn. I really hope so.
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I think it's a bit early to tell how high Hillbilly will rank after his rework. They added a completely new mechanic to his kit that allows for very different plays and his Engravings now enable completely different things in Overdrive while disabeling most normal curves (you're too fast to even turn in time). He is definitely in a good spot overall but quite tough to rank yet.
As for Sadako, I think she might rank a little higher even. She can be quite a monster especially on her better maps.
@GeneralV said:
Freddy definitely isn't the weakest of them all.
This is the weakest he has ever been, no doubt, but not enough for the position of weakest killer in the game.
I'm sorry to say it, friend. But he is. Maybe it's good though for you to keep on dreaming instead of waking up to the Nightmare that Freddy has become. 😘
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He moves at normal speed (4.6 m/s = 115%). I can't say I've felt something like this before. But maybe that's because I'm a sucker for numbers and always read through those numbers before I play a killer for the first time.
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You can always try and make a list of the survivors on a piece of paper and note their hook stages there. But really, it's not a big deal. As long you're not going out of your way to have someone dead as soon as possible, you're already playing nice.
You will never be able to please everyone (I speak from experience) and focusing too much on that will only leave you disappointed. Someone will find a reason to complain. Focus on having fun and don't go out of your way to be a jerk. Many will appreciate that. As for those, who don't, screw them. If they want to be miserable, then let them.
Good luck and see you in the fog.