Valuetown
Valuetown
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764159#Comment_3764159
I have played survivor main for 2 years, then switched to killer main. I'd say killers winning too easy is a skill issue on the survivor part. I have played many games, survivor and killer survivors used the correct perks and set up to counter the killers tunneling or camping and the survivors have won. It's only easy to win if the opposition goes into the match I'll prepared. Like if a killer goes into a match as an anti looper, then it's probably not a wise idea to try looping him.
Survivors need to be equipped with the right perks. Perks which the Devs have included in the game for this purpose
You can feel that way, but the reality is it's not true. The fact a blight main could achieve a 1900+ win streak and was only stopped because comp players were stream-sniping them and running the most OP builds shows just how near impossible it is for survivors to win against a killer who abuses the snowball nature of the killer role and knows what they're doing. The fact is that most killers can tunnel without running any perks, but a survivor MUST make their whole build around not getting tunneled is such a ridiculous double standard.
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@Yggleif said:
I know what I'm about to ask is probably going to get some strong reactions but on the topic of the gen bug where if one survivor dies and leaves the game the next gen completed counts as 2 gens, would it be crazy if that stayed in the game in some version as an anti-tunnel mechanic?
It hasn't cost me any games as killer personally and as survivor it really only makes a difference in games where one person gets hard tunneled out early on. If they made it where it only did it after one person died it could be a genuinely good mechanic to dissuade tunneling. I thought killer was going to be unplayable with this bug around but it really isn't if you ping pong between two survivors and spread pressure by the time a survivor dies it doesn't really matter if you take a gen away or put another way any game where it matters you were probably going to lose anyway. Because from my experience it only effects killers trying to hard tunnel one person out while running a bunch of gen blocking (deadlock/grim embrace/DMS) perks which isn't any fun to go against anyway.
While it would be a nice way to dissuade killers from tunneling and getting a survivor out as fast as possible (this has been the best strategy to win since the birth of the game), it's addressing a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. The problem is it is way too easy for the game to turn in the killer's favor, and once that happens, there is almost nothing the survivors can do to turn the game around at that point.
There needs to be more catchup mechanics for survivors. Killers are able to do simple non-perk and non-ability related plays that simply provide too much pressure for them. Want to get a free health state? Walk back to the hook after 10-20 seconds of leaving because another survivor has already begun to rotate to get the unhook. Want to generate free pressure? Start tunneling a survivor and slug them. At least 2 survivors will come and make an altruistic play to try and save their teammate. This gen bug is the closest thing we will ever get to a decent catchup mechanic.
Killer apologists will tell you that "oh well you just don't like the game so you shouldn't be playing," but that really isn't it. There is a focus to hold every killer's hand like we're walking them to preschool. "We've got to make sure that the killer gets at least two kills per game or they might stop playing killer!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Honestly at this point, anyone can auto-pilot their way to at least a 3k on killer if they have minimum game sense and a functioning frontal lobe. All people are asking for is a fair chance to win the game. A survivor shouldn't be placed into a match as fodder for the killer player's fun because a bogus and ambiguous spreadsheet told the people making balance decisions that 60% kill rate felt "just right."
tl;dr: The issue is killers can easily turn the game into their favor using very easily executable strategies, and it is almost impossible for most survivor teams to recover, regardless of skill level. The solution would be to reduce this to a significant degree where good players on both sides can make conscious plays that would affect the overall state of the match.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761550#Comment_3761550
That comment is not so much specific to you, more a reference to how the forum is filled with people being angry at BHVR because they don't implement every change that they want.
Specifically speaking about your post, you could have taken the time to ask them whether it's an intention change or not, or even just tell them that the tile is weak. Instead you take the approach of suggesting that the devs either can't understand that the tile is badly designed or they just want useless tiles to pad out kill rates. It's a disrespectful way of communicating feedback, and to me, comes across as kind of bratty.
I'm sorry you think that the post came off as bratty and disrespectful.
To your point of instead asking if it's an intentional change: new tiles don't get created because of bugs or weird interactions with new perks. New tiles are added because someone sat down and took the time in unreal engine to drag walls and pallet object around and place them intentionally. It would be a moot point to ask if this was done intentionally because any way you look at it, yes is the only answer imaginable.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761467#Comment_3761467
Feedback is useful. But the devs are allowed to try things out and see how it goes. People acting like they are offended because BHVR didn't run a change past them just comes across as entitled. It's their game.
There is a PTB for a reason. If you could help me understand how my post is "inarticulately screaming at them like a bunch of kids" instead of genuine feedback with concern, that would be awesome. I'm not asking for them to run every single little change by the community, but something as critical to the gameplay of every match like tile generation and tile design is very much relevant to the community.
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I have the same issue, but the buff is not working for me
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@Crowman said:
Here's the truth about the forums.
People who favor survivor tend to notice things they don't agree with and tend to think the forums sway harder towards killer than it actually does.
People who favor killer tend to notice things they don't agree with and tend to think the forums sway harder towards survivor than it actually does.
If you set aside your bias towards a side of the game, you will notice that the forum see constant complaints from both sides.
Here's an experiment you can try:
- Pick 10 threads with an initial post with a killer complaining about survivors and another 10 the other way around
- For each thread, count how many players from the opposite side come out to tell the OP just how wrong they are (data 100% of the time leans towards killer players telling survivors they're wrong)
- Notice how far from reality your comment about the forums is
If you set aside your bias towards a side of the game, you will notice that the forums see constant complains from killer players.
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@danielmaster87 said:
The killer could see the survivors' auras all match, and the game would still be fun. So I'm sure that this perk's limitations, when compared to that scenario, are fine as is. Why don't you just pick up the item or move it somewhere else? It's that easy.
So you want every killer to have 4 slowdown and map wide aura at all times? What's next? Based on your answer, every survivor should start on the hook and if they can't unhook themselves, the match should just end.
"Game would still be fun" ← someone who has never played survivor in their life.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747652#Comment_3747652
In your opinion, what's the "correct" way to loop a singularity?
In 1v4 it comes down to using EMPs as much as possible. Preferably always have one with you for chase.
Work on gens in spots where you break LoS with camera, or can hide fast. Unless there is multiple cameras pointing at one gen, you usually have a spot like this. Otherwise EMP ready.
In 1v1, you can see where camera landed and in many loops break LoS, then just hold W to gain as much distance you can.
If Singularity teleported to you, unless they use movement speed addon, you can run quite a big distance and outrun the duration with just one window vault.
Of course it's best to drop pallet before singularity teleports to you and don't let him teleport to instantly break the pallet, that's not very effective...
Even if you predrop the pallet and singularity kicks and teleport again, you can reach next loop on most maps. It's simply not that strong in 1v1 situation. Singularity won't get guaranteed hit from using his power and it's also not that fast.
After you get injured, try to break LoS as long as possible to deny teleport. Depends on map...
There is a reason why singularity is so easy to beat on indoor maps.
So your counter is:
- Pray that the map is indoor for a slight advantage (according to you)
- Pray that LoS exists based on where the singularity places the pod (almost impossible against good singularities) (hiding behind a rock does not grant you any more distance on the singularity)
- Use an EMP that you already have equipped to buy 2 seconds of time because he will place another pod down and mark you right away
- Have your team spend 25 seconds or less to print off an EMP (100 seconds if nobody accelerates the print), then run around the map to find you instead of progressing the game on generators to remove your slipstream, just to have it reapplied in 2 seconds.
All that to say what I initially said: if the singularity knows what they are doing, there is nothing you can do in chase.
Preferably always have [an EMP] with you for chase.
This is literally the whole point of my post. It does not do anything meaningful in chase. Singularity will mark you again within seconds.
If Singularity teleported to you, unless they use movement speed addon, you can run quite a big distance and outrun the duration with just one window vault.
His tp animation and wind-up take 2 seconds total. You will get minimal distance because you're forced to a tile or you are accepting a free health state by just holding W across the map. Good singularities hold their teleport until after you vault a window. Until you commit to a vault, they just hold their launcher until they're either close enough for an m1, or you vault and they teleport after you, putting them on the same side of the window as you. Even if you make it to the next tile by prethrowing pallets or vaulting, he is shredding through pallets, and most windows are ineffective against him to get any sort of meaningful distance for the reason I just stated. Even if your chase lasts 60 seconds, now half of the map has 0 resources, and it is much easier to down your teammates.
"Breaking LoS" as the only "counter" is not an acceptable answer when talking about healthy balancing. Guess which other killer only has "break LoS" as the only counter in chase? Nurse. I'm not saying singularity is anywhere near oppressive to a good nurse, but it's just a funny observation.
If you have any other tips on how to counter singularity, I'm sure they would be useful for the discussion, but the previous ones you listed are ineffective at best, detrimental at worst against good singularities.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747607#Comment_3747607
I play against high mmr and comp players daily. I am in high mmr playing against high mmr singularities
Of course you are. Like majority of the players on forum. Well, they claim that at least....
Be thankful that you have the luxury of playing against the low mmr singularities that still don't know they lose bloodlust when they go into pod mode.
So you are losing against Singularity that use bloodlust on you? Lol, how is that 30 seconds chase then?
It's funny to complain about lack of arguments and then use invisible MMR instead.
Unless you are playing wrong and try to pallet stun singularity, there is no way you get chase under 30 seconds, but that's just skill issue at that point.
And I highly doubt you play against Singularity that often anyway with ultra low pick rate. But of course you have definitely all those in your "high" MMR, because singularity players are known to perform well and get anywhere close to it...
If his chase was so insane, Singularity would be very popular in 1v1. 30 seconds is really good result. Well, he is not...
So you are losing against Singularity that use bloodlust on you? Lol, how is that 30 seconds chase then?
Let's take everything I said and put it out of context from my original point. No I'm not losing to singularity because of bloodlust. I'm losing to high mmr singularities for the reasons I said above. His chase power is not counterable. I said what I said about bloodlust because one of the first things you learn about his pod mechanic as a new singularity is that it clears your bloodlust. Please try to practice good faith reading comprehension.
Singularity would be very popular in 1v1
Bringing up 1v1s in the context of actual matches has to be the biggest and most laughable straw man I have ever seen.
I don't know what more you want me to tell you, you're simply just wrong. As I said in my original post, it takes less than 2 seconds to place and replace pods and to mark survivors with them. If you're prethrowing pallets, he eats through them because of overclock. If you have any distance, he teleports on you and you have 2 seconds to make it to a window or pallet before he catches up. If you have a teammate with an EMP clear your slipstream, it doesn't matter because 2 seconds later he can mark you again by placing a pod in chase, and the cycle continues. There's only so much distance you can cover with all of this happening without also taking a hit trying to run away. With dbd's new design philosophy, windows are becoming increasingly rare on any new tile or map. Dead zones are everywhere. Unsafe pallets are everywhere.
The only reason he doesn't stomp every game is because of the EMP's only useful purpose: to stop cross map slipstreaming. He'll have to walk across the map to contest gens. If he had more reliable map mobility, he would be easily top of A or even an S tier killer.
I explained all of this in my original post, but again, if you would have read it and actually took the time to comprehend it, I wouldn't have to reiterate all of this.
In your opinion, what's the "correct" way to loop a singularity?
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747561#Comment_3747561
I read it and it doesn't change reality.
If singularity downs you from healthy state under 30 seconds, you are doing something wrong. That's it.
It's just funny to try call out killers on skill issue, when you are lacking in that aspect yourself.
I don't consider myself good Singularity, because it just requires me to focus on macro gameplay way more than any other killer and I am too lazy. But I at least know how to play against one...
Saying "you're wrong" with legitimately 0 reasoning or logic behind it really doesn't sell your argument. I'm sorry but you're incorrect about singularity for the reasons I listed. It's really that simple.
I play against high mmr and comp players daily. I am in high mmr playing against high mmr singularities when I do see them. All of these games are the same. There is nothing a survivor can do in chase. Be thankful that you have the luxury of playing against the low mmr singularities that still don't know they lose bloodlust when they go into pod mode.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745657#Comment_3745657
It's honestly a skill issue if a singularity's chases aren't 30 seconds or less
Ok, how the hell you get downed under 30 seconds against Singularity?
It sounds like skill issue on your end instead.
Reread my post. Based on your response, it's clear that you either did not comprehend it, or you just didn't read it past the first sentence you disagreed with.
His chase power is A tier. There is almost nothing a survivor can do against it if the singularity knows what they're doing. Having a pod placed on you happens in 2 seconds or less, even if he has to place a new one down in chase. From there, the singularity spam clicks the survivor and either gets a free hit or wastes valuable map resources with no time investment.
Please read a post fully before trying to contribute to a thread.
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@Backmon said:
This character is already one of the strongest killers in the game. With these buffs he will be impossible to play against. I am surprised by the logic of the developers, they overbuff already strong huntress and singularity, but the weaker and more difficult to master pig and knight were simply destroyed
Finally, someone else that understands.
His chase power is A tier at worst. It's honestly a skill issue if a singularity's chases aren't 30 seconds or less. EMPs do next to nothing in chase for someone's survivability. In fact, the only situation where an EMP is useful is preventing him from cross map slipstreaming when he's protecting generators. Good singularities don't bother setting up pods before their first chase. They set up one good pod in a central area, but place pods in chase because marking a survivor is almost instant, and the penalty for coming out of pod mode is nonexistent.
The biggest issue I have is that when a pod is disabled, he can recall the disabled pod and can immediately place another down. That entire time a survivor spent going out of their way to either print off an EMP or grabbing an EMP to help a teammate in chase is useless because all the singularity has to do is this: click the pod to destroy it, click again to place another, use pod, within half a second mark the survivor again. All of that can be done in under 2 seconds. So his only counter, EMPs, are effectively useless in chase.
This same design plagues other killers like skull merchant as well. The survivor counterplay involves going out of your way to disable the power, but the killer can immediately turn it back on with next to no time involved. And on top of all that, adding "quality of life" changes, which realistically should be called "training wheels" changes, to autoaim to the nearest survivor only means that we have yet another killer with low skill/high reward gameplay, which will make already good singularity players that don't need the help that much more effective.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742780#Comment_3742780
I play plenty of survivor. I just think it's weird some of you guys hate practically every aspect of this game and haven't decided to stop wasting your time with a game you clearly aren't enjoying.
Disliking boring "gameplay" on specific killers doesn't automatically mean the rest of the game isn't worth it.
I would advise not throwing out the baby with the bathwater...
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742687#Comment_3742687
Nice strawman attempt, but no.
I see this terrible "gotcha" from killer mains all the time unfortunately. I'm glad you called it for what it is.
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@Rogue11 said:
"15% is to much 5% doesn't make an impact what so ever"
Weird, I was told 3% was literally game breaking and threw every semblance of chase balance out the window...
It's getting to the point where I genuinely believe some killer mains want to play a PvE game. They don't want survivors to have a chance to escape and feel entitled to 4ks every game with at least 3 gens remaining. They demand every buff in the book, they demand that every even remotely useful survivor perk gets nerfed, they want chases to be over the second they start because they want killer powers to be unavoidable, the list goes on and on.
Some killer mains crying that 3% haste ruined all of their chases, meanwhile almost every killer has some form of built in haste or movement ability. At a certain point, it's the killer players that need to adapt. If a killer player was upset about 3% haste, they've got to be playing a killer like pig, at which point, I'd be more upset about survivors prethrowing the entire map over 3% haste.
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@Scanadore said:
Happened again, survivor side this time, and I wasn't even blinding or stunning.
If you were the last one carried before the stun, this would all but confirm my theory. That, or the game decides to hook the first survivor in the survivor list.
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I have no knowledge on the code base, but I assume that there is a variable that holds the player ID of the survivor being carried. This variable does not clear to a "not carrying" value, most likely because it is assumed it will update upon the next survivor getting picked up, and there are other variables that are more important in determining if a player is able to move/perform actions/play specific animations/etc. I assume that due to lag or a desync between the killer player and the server, the flashlight blind is successful from the server side from the blinding survivor; however, the killer was able to remote hook on their end before the "survivor carry ID" variable was updated. The server, using the survivor ID of the last person actually carried, teleports them instead.
In SlushieTTV's Ormond game, she wasn't even the player to achieve the flashlight save, but she was the last player to be carried and hooked. She was face camped from first hook state to second hook state by the leatherface. When the Mikaela flashlight blinded the leatherface, the game had Slushie's player ID as the last survivor carried, and teleported her instead of the player actually being picked up.
Again, this is just my personal theory, but I hope it can be helpful tracking down the bug.
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@HaunterofShadows said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734412#Comment_3734412
Because that's the way the game is designed to be. Given its assymetrical nature, a lot of what one side finds fun, the other side will not. Especially when it comes to things like perks, add-ons, items, offerings, and anything outside of the standard gameplay loop that's prone to change every match.
The game shouldn't be designed that when one side is having fun the other is not. Asymmetrical or not, you can still have fun if you lose. The trick is to having fun and meaningful gameplay for both sides, and the devs appear to have long since abandoned that philosophy.
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@Crowman said:
Killer runs build that isn't just 4 slowdown perks, gets complained about.
Build eventually gets nerfed and killers return to running 4 slowdown perks
Survivors complain about 4 slowdown build.
Oversimplification of the post is an oversimplification.
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@radiantHero23 said:
Im wasting two of my perks for okayisch aura reading that only works if people dont have distortion, OTR or dont use an item.
I have too say, this is a bit hilarious. What do you want killers to use? Info is literally game health. Give killers something else to be and to chase rather than the survivor fresh off the hook. Aura perks enable this.
If you want more slowdown instead, have fun with it. Im fine with aura over slowdown.
That's why with our current roster of aura reading perks like BBQ and Friend's til the end, killers aren't still proxy camping and running immediately back to hook right? "Okayish" = 1/8th coverage of most map with 4 items on the ground.
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@jokere98 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734399#Comment_3734399
it was much more than 12 meters
No. Next time show your math and I'd be inclined to believe you.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734409#Comment_3734409
Your point about walls is irrelevant lmao. I never said they were uncounterable I said it was unfun. Just like you said Franklins and Weave is unfun. Because you and I both know the Franklins and Weave combo is obviously very counterable. It’s called W key! If you leave the radius it doesn’t show your aura anymore!😅
And I’m sure you’re fine going against 4 slowdowns now after they got gutted but I’m sure you still complain about them! If I had to guess I would easily make the assumption that you thought the Adrenaline nerf was unfair and unneeded and you though Buckle Up + FTP was a fair combo and you think that 200% BGP was completely fair and balanced! So…. am I right or am I right? 😂
PS: Flashbang says hello because it can’t be countered by looking at walls😀You can keep making assumptions all you'd like 😀
In regards to flashbang, let's keep moving those goalposts!!! Another 100 meters to go, keep it up!
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734399#Comment_3734399
Background Player coverage was a lot more than 12 meters. Checking a 12 meter radius before picking up is reasonable.
But also you are comparing 2 completely different and unrelated things.
Background player for a flashbang save, which is what I was talking about, was 12 meters before the update. It had an 8 m/s move speed and the flashbang had to be dropped at 1.5 seconds of the pickup animation starting. That's a 12 meter radius for flashbang + background player. So no, it was not a lot more than 12 meters. Some tiles are 16m by 16m. You're saying the killer should have almost full aura read on that entire tile because of one perk?
Also, for your "solution," how is having to check a 12 meter radius for the item in question, to then go and waste more time moving it to the edge of the map any different than the killer checking a 12 meter radius for a survivor?
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@Zaydin said:
Given BHVRs bias when it comes to balance, I doubt it will take long. Meanwhile it took them like a year or two to finally nerf the overpowered Buckle-Up + For the People combo that Killers couldn't counter.
Ok
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@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
bro I think the killer is just having fun running a thief jumpscare anti item meme build
I saw someone run this before
They’re just having fun
Why should the killer's fun be at the expense of the survivor's fun?
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
And I find flashlights incredibly unfun to play against. So we can remove what you want if we also remove what I want! 😀
FR tho, complaining about a super niche and barely used combo is strange. I’m guessing you would rather go against 4 slowdowns?
Your scapegoat of flashlights really doesn't matter when half the maps are just walls and all you have to do is turn your camera into them 😀
FR tho, I've seen it 5 out of the 9 games I've played today. I also take it you didn't read my post considering I said I'd rather go against 4 slowdown. Try reading the whole thing next time!
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
It's an aura reading perk that you, the survivor, have full control over once you know it's there. The game tells you your aura is being revealed by the perk. If you want, pick up the item and once you're done with it just go dump it in some corner where no one will ever go and it won't give any more aura reading value.
Either way, this combo really isn't an issue.
I've had killers tell me that a 12 meter radius was an extreme amount of space to check when picking up a survivor in fear of a flashbang + background player save. Now it's "no big deal" when it's a 12 meter aura read for survivors. The fact that there's almost 1,812 square meters with four items (add about 453 square meters per item in the trial) that have CONSTANT aura read at all times is ridiculous. For reference, undying has a radius of 4 meters on its aura read. Either way, this combo really is an issue.
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@nodforkiss said:
not running an item sounds like perfect counter to me
and he is using 2 slots of perks so less gen regression/block. u survivor mains wont stop until every perk gets taken away from killers.
No. "Not running something" should never be considered a counter. Nobody has the clairvoyance to GUESS when someone is going to run something to change their build. Counters should always be in game, never out of game. And like I've said: the game is designed around items being brought, so "not running something" should not be the "perfect counter."
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@100PercentBPMain said:
And what exactly is fun to you?
I'm not going to list everything, but being able to use the stuff I bring into a trial that the game is balanced around me bringing would be a start.
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@Rulebreaker said:
All this does is make you chose between your items or your lives.
I have no idea what you mean by that. So either I have to choose not to bring an item into a trial, when the game is balanced around me doing so, in fear of this combination? What kind of logic is that? The better idea would be to just nerf the combination.
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I also love elves, and when I heard the new survivor was an elf, I was extremely excited. Fast forward to seeing Aestri and I was extremely disappointed with what they had created as well. I genuinely don't know why they didn't just make them two different characters. In fact, why not have 4 different survivors to resemble the average D&D party?
It saddens me to know there's a reality out there somewhere where 4 survivors were created and each brought 3 perks that represented aspects of 4 different classes from D&D. For example, a cleric survivor that has a perk that after stunning a killer twice allows for faster or an instant heal on another survivor, among other ideas.
Aestri does look extremely terrible using the male skeleton and also using the same hair. They have the means to change the skeletons for the same character, case and point: Alan Wake and Saga Anderson. I really hope they fix this and don't just hand wave it away.
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I do find it absolutely hilarious that people are telling you to "just counter" an uncounterable exploit, and then turn around and call it a "skill ceiling."
It's not hard to program a hard angle cap on all these flick killers, but the devs refuse to do it for some reason.
I also agree that it provides pc players with such a significant advantage, and the game should try to minimize those as much as possible.
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If the matchmaking in this game actually worked correctly this wouldn't be needed, but considering it doesn't, honestly this idea wouldn't be enough. People would need a 2 hour training video for every patch as well, mandatory test included.
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@Huge_Bush said:
60 million players? SMH, game is dying!
I am happy for dbd and its accomplishments, and am looking forward to the anniversary, but to be fair, 60 million players is all PR speak. There's a steady average of around 32k players playing the game per day for the past year or so according to steam charts. You can multiply that number by 5 (arbitrary overestimate) to compensate for the console player base, and that number is nowhere near 60 million, or even 1/4th of a million for that matter.
60 million most likely counts everyone that played at least 1 dbd game in their life (or downloaded/bought but never played). It also most likely counts duplicates, meaning if you played on pc and xbox, you've been counted twice.
Total players that have ever touched dbd is not a good metric on the game's current state of heath, which is why monthly active users is a better metric for shareholders and is a better representation for the health of the player base.
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I think they should focus on the survivor and killer experience before they add another license that would attract a ton of more players. Otherwise, you're just going to increase your pool of players that dc, tunnel, stall out matches, etc. because the state of the game in terms of fun and variety is the worst it has ever been.
@Seraphor said:
This isn't a Resident Evil game though.
Can we at least get a second Silent Hill or Stranger Things chapter first?
Like most people, I don't have an issue adding licensed content to the game, as it brings in new players. I do have an issue when those players don't care about dbd's individuality and game loop, and/or want to turn dbd into the game they came from by adding as much content from it as possible (I am not saying OP is either of these). Resident evil content especially, it somehow wants to spread itself like the viruses from the games.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710822#Comment_3710822
If they weren't balanced around that then Plague for example would be getting extra buffs. Part of her strength she's balanced for is around the fact she turns healing off.
What's wrong with mobility killers? Are you implying they don't take mobility killers into account for perks?
Yes part of her strength is turning healing off. Now she doesn't have to worry about for the people and buckle up, now she doesn't have to run chase perks and can run 4 slowdown for free because her chases are only half the time because of the broken status effect. I wouldn't mind if plague got buffs if she was nerfed in other aspects. At the end of the day, I don't consider plague's current design healthy for the game in its current state.
Yes I am, although I was hardly implying, rather explicitly stating that. They balance perks for D tier killers like Freddy and Myers to try and give them a boost, and then wonder why 4 slowdown is the meta on blight/nurse/wesker/spirit/oni/etc, killers that don't need chase perks to succeed, so they're free to run all slowdown.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710749#Comment_3710749
They are fundamentally different, not just in spirit. Those killers are balanced around the fact that they turn off those mechanics.
No they aren't. Killers are balanced around their abilities because the devs consider them to be separate from perks. If they considered them the same as perks, mobility killers would not be as strong as they are now.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710745#Comment_3710745
"Distortion has charges. It can and does frequently run out, even with 2 aura read perks. So it is not "just false" lol."
No, it does not. That just simply isn't true.
"Mindbreaker prevents most lithe players from using it when they want to.
Mindbreaker prevents most dead hard players from using it when they
want to. Mindbreaker prevents most overcome players from using it when
they want to."No, it does not. A few seconds of walking is extremely doable to remove mid chase unless the survivor is just bad.
Yes it does run out. Saying "simply not true" when there is video evidence all over youtube that distortion runs out of charges doesn't magically make your argument true.
As for mindbreaker, yes it is very easy to 99 your exhaustion. But your average survivor player has no idea how to do that. I agree that it is a survivor skill issue, but at the same point, complaining about distortion is also a killer skill issue. Either you were running one aura read as an afterthought and distortion is doing its job by countering a perk, you were running 4 slowdown and you have no idea distortion is being run at all, or you're running 2 or more aura read and distortion works for half the match because tokens get consumed.
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@caligraph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710745#Comment_3710745
as a distortion user, i can count of one hand the times I've run entirely out of tokens. (they were both vs scratch mirror myers)
This anecdote essentially means nothing because maybe most killers you're playing against aren't running aura read at all, considering 4 slowdown is the current meta. Just because you personally don't run out doesn't mean other people have the same experience.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710726#Comment_3710726
"is it fine that killers can slap on 4 aura perks and know where survivors are like 80% of the time? No, that isn't fine. "
Well firstly, even with 4 aura perks, 80% of the time is an extreme exaggeration and not reality. Even 30% would be extremely generous. I think you need to look at the duration of how long aura perks reveal. However ignoring that hyperbole, is 4 stacked aura perks fine? Absolutely it is. I would always rather a killer run 4 aura perks instead of 4 slow down perks. If a killer is stacking 4 aura perks your gens should be flying. You are ignoring how much of a cost it is to run 4 aura perks and not run gen slow down.
"If survivors bring distortion and you're not bringing aura perks, it's
also a wasted perk slot for the survivors the whole round. So your
argument doesn't mean anything."I didn't say overpowered, I said unhealthy. You are conflating the two when they aren't the same. If this is your rational as well, then you should also be fine with a killer perk that 100% turns off all Exhaustion perks, but I know you won't be.
"If I get a plague when running a full healing build, I'm basicly
perkless the entire round because I can't heal puked on survivors or
myself. Shall I have the chance to change my perks ingame when I see a
plague? No, that would be ridiculous. So is nerfing distortion because
it counters aura reading perks."You're conflating two things that aren't the same again. A killer power turning perks off and a perk turning perks off are not the same.
A killer power turning perks off and perks turning perks off are only different in spirit because the devs told you they should be considered that way. There is fundamentally no difference in the two when a survivor encounters them. You could consider the killer ability a 5th "perk," because the killer had to equip that specific killer and will change their play style to get value out of the power. Killer powers also shouldn't destroy entire game mechanics, not unless they're willing to provide more flexibility in other aspects of the game when the specific killer is in play.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710723#Comment_3710723
"This is a false equivalency because distortion DOES run out. "
No, no it does not. That is just false. You'd have to be stacking like 4 aura perks to even have it ever run out and even in that scenario it's still blocking like 90% of them.
"Just like how mindbreaker applies exhaustion, the effect does run out"
Now that, is a false equivalency. They are not even remotely comparable. You'd be lucky if Mindbreaking blocked even 40% of Exhaustions from going off.
" If you only bring lethal, sure you'll have been countered by distortion, but distortion is now useless for the survivor too."
This is disingenuous. You could bring even 3 aura perks and it not run out. You're heavily downplaying how many auras Distortion can block without running out.
"I have and always will say that lightborn in its current state is poor
game design and is more like what you're talking about. It eliminates an
entire mechanic and reveals survivor auras that attempt to blind you.
Unlike distortion that can be dealt with, lightborn simply nullifies
blinds and has no counter."I would change Lightborn as well if you want to go that direction. I'd also argue Background Player with Flashbang is uncounterable as well though and is the only real reason we are seeing Lightborn used at all. If hypothetically Background Player and Flashbang didn't exist as they currently do no one would be using Lightborn outside of newer players.
Distortion has charges. It can and does frequently run out, even with 2 aura read perks. So it is not "just false" lol.
Mindbreaker prevents most lithe players from using it when they want to. Mindbreaker prevents most dead hard players from using it when they want to. Mindbreaker prevents most overcome players from using it when they want to. Requiring a player to walk for a few seconds during a chase is asking for a free hit, and most average players do not know how to counter mindbreaker.
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@Blueberry said:
Distortion is unhealthy design in its current state. We want to encourage killers away from just stacking 4 slow downs but Distortions existence encourages it. It reduces the perk diversity we currently have which is already very low as it is.
Think of it this way. What if killers had a perk that just 100% turned off all Exhaustion perks? Is that fine? Like the logic most people are using to defend Distortion, well if the survivors don't bring an Exhaustion perk then the killers perk is a wasted slot as well now so it's totally fine right? See how that logic doesn't go both ways?
No one would be okay with a killer perk that 100% turned off Exhaustion perks, but are totally fine with a survivor perk that 100% turns off Aura perks.
This is a false equivalency because distortion DOES run out. Just like how mindbreaker applies exhaustion, the effect does run out. If you only bring lethal, sure you'll have been countered by distortion, but distortion is now useless for the survivor too.
I have and always will say that lightborn in its current state is poor game design and is more like what you're talking about. It eliminates an entire mechanic and reveals survivor auras that attempt to blind you. Unlike distortion that can be dealt with, lightborn simply nullifies blinds and has no counter.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FCJLVTXQM1W3/image.png
I knew Distortion is quite common nowadays, so that's why I also brought Gearhead to hopefully burn through all the stacks.
But guessed what, it was a map of Hawkins, and I only saw the Auras THREE TIMES in the entire game. Both of them were Claudette, so I was forced to tunnel her out.
So here comes the question. Isn't Distortion a little bit too strong? Three of my perks get denied by a single Survivor perk, just like that.
PS: I kinda hate slowdown perks, so I always go for perks that provide information. But if that information can be denied this easily, it really does make sense why every Killer goes for Slowdown perks :(
There is nothing wrong with distortion. It is very easy to burn through charges in normal gameplay. You said yourself that these survivors were not very good. Not very good players don't do gens. Most just walk around the map, hide, and go for saves above all else so that they can get a free pip. I have a feeling every survivor but that Claudette wasn't doing anything, meaning no skill checks and no gearhead value. All their charges went to lethal and bbq.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708745#Comment_3708745
That's not entirely true. The problem isn't necessarily DS, its that it also is affected by head on, and blast mine of all things.
@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709056#Comment_3709056
To be fair, blast mine is just not a good perk, and is already rarely used. Slowing down the killer for 5 seconds isn't going to stop pop in 99% of scenarios. The only reasons someone would run blast mine is to laugh at the killer for kicking their gen and also to complete archive challenges.
The other reason anyone would see it so often is this: resident evil fans love resident evil. That's it. According to steam charts, dbd nearly DOUBLED its average player count on pc from around 55k to 105k for a short duration after the original resident evil chapter released. The only new players coming to the game during that time are resident evil fans. Guess what DLCs they paid for upon downloading the game? Only the resident evil chapter. Guess what Jill's and Leon's most appealing perk is? Blast mine. It's easy to use, but like most survivor perks they release, it is not good at all. To top it off, unless the resident evil fans really loved the gameplay loop of dbd, which already has a massive learning curve, they aren't going to stick around for very long. If they do come back, they aren't buying any new DLC, they're going to play Jill or Leon and use blast mine because it's a perk they already paid for.
Out of 20 games, I see maybe 1 blast mine, and that's a generous estimate. The amount of stars that have to align for the scenario to occur is already so slim. Plague is middle of the pack in terms of play percentage, and blast mine is already extremely low in usage rate compared to other perks that people could deem more problematic.
Now, if the dev's intention was to clear her power upon any stun, yes this affects patrolling gens, but it is intended. Also, if a plague is kicking gens with blood puke up without pop, I have more questions about their decision making than anything else.
If it's intended, as I stated here, then I don't have an issue with the mechanic. Perks/abilities countering game mechanics sadly seems to only be an issue when it's the survivors countering killers. It's ironic that people are complaining about plague's power, one of the most snowball-capable powers in the game that lasts a very long time, getting disabled after a stun, when her power prevents any sort of healing/stealth build (because the puke makes you audible) for almost the entirety of a trial simply because the killer exists.
The only issue I have is the patch notes not being a detailed list of additions, removals, changes, and bug fixes. If those bug fixes affect the end user, the devs should be transparent and share an easily digestible but also semi-verbose patch note about them.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709840#Comment_3709840
My assessment is perfectly fine. Get something without paying for it = free. Increasing Value of the product long after the purchase is still giving the consumer something for free.
Your assessment is perfectly fine if you ignore everything about how businesses are run, how basic cost vs benefit works, and how your original comment disregarded everything the original poster had said, even including the title.
You paid for the product. Anything added after isn't free, it's included in the original price retroactively. I'm also not going to engage in a back and forth tennis match over this in the replies. You can think about it your way, this is the way some other people think about it.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709823#Comment_3709823
I clarified that I was responding to the title and not their post afterwards. In regard to the claim they made in their title, they are wrong.
If you bought something and the company later gives you something that wasn’t originally included, then you received the new stuff for free. Doesn’t matter if it works as a carrot on a stick, you still got something that you didn’t pay for.
They're not completely wrong in their title. If bhvr isn't going to receive a return on investment, they will not fix something not worth fixing. So in both regards your assessment on the situation is incorrect.
You paid for the original product. If they want to tack on something after the original purchase that's fine, but you still had to pay for the original product to get it, hence why I said they're only increasing end value of the purchase. The devs aren't going to hand over free content to players that haven't even purchased the game yet. And let's not forget the legendary quote "if it's free, then you're the product."
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@Huge_Bush said:
Too lazy to read the OP so I’m just responding to the title.
BHVR is a business and as a business, they are entitled to make money off of their product. They have to pay their employees, bills (rent, maintenance, utilities, advertising, servers) and must make money to please shareholders(sucks, but that’s the economy of today’s world). There is nothing wrong with a company trying to make money as long as they don’t use unsavory tactics.
Anyways, there’s plenty of things in this game that they have done or provide for free after you purchase the base game. You don’t pay a monthly subscription and yet still have access to their servers. You can earn lots of free cosmetics (even if it takes a while and a lot are underwhelming, they’re still free), you can unlock plenty of characters even though you only need Claudette, they listen to feed back and rework killers all the time (most recently Twins, Skully Mommy, Sada-no, HillyBilly), they introduced mechanics to make the game less frustrating (base-kit BT, Removal of Hook Grabs, Anti-FACE Camp mechanic, Anti-3-gen mechanic, a nice HUD that greatly helps solo-Q -yes it helps a lot even with all the naysayers) and they still communicate with the community albeit less than they used to(don’t blame them, this community is insufferable).
So, you’re simply wrong.
You really shouldn't say "I didn't read the post" and then tell someone "you're wrong" about said post because that's just irresponsible for the sake of having a good discussion.
Also "provide for free after purchasing the base game." Then it's not for free. "Free" updates for this game aren't free, they're simply providing more value to something a player already paid for. You can thank every DLC release, the whales that buy 20 cosmetic skins a month, and the people that purchase rift levels for the "free" content.
That's also ignoring the fact that most "free" content in games nowadays are supposed to be a gateway into actually purchasing more product. The "free" stuff gets you hooked, then you feel more inclined to buy.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
I understand this is a weird thing to suddenly 'fix', but it seems like he is making this out to be a bigger deal than it actually is. I don't think it will have any real effect in the vast majority of games.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708729#Comment_3708729
To be fair, this also impacts patrolling gens because Blast Mine removes it now as well.
To be fair, blast mine is just not a good perk, and is already rarely used. Slowing down the killer for 5 seconds isn't going to stop pop in 99% of scenarios. The only reasons someone would run blast mine is to laugh at the killer for kicking their gen and also to complete archive challenges.
The other reason anyone would see it so often is this: resident evil fans love resident evil. That's it. According to steam charts, dbd nearly DOUBLED its average player count on pc from around 55k to 105k for a short duration after the original resident evil chapter released. The only new players coming to the game during that time are resident evil fans. Guess what DLCs they paid for upon downloading the game? Only the resident evil chapter. Guess what Jill's and Leon's most appealing perk is? Blast mine. It's easy to use, but like most survivor perks they release, it is not good at all. To top it off, unless the resident evil fans really loved the gameplay loop of dbd, which already has a massive learning curve, they aren't going to stick around for very long. If they do come back, they aren't buying any new DLC, they're going to play Jill or Leon and use blast mine because it's a perk they already paid for.
Out of 20 games, I see maybe 1 blast mine, and that's a generous estimate. The amount of stars that have to align for the scenario to occur is already so slim. Plague is middle of the pack in terms of play percentage, and blast mine is already extremely low in usage rate compared to other perks that people could deem more problematic.
Now, if the dev's intention was to clear her power upon any stun, yes this affects patrolling gens, but it is intended. Also, if a plague is kicking gens with blood puke up without pop, I have more questions about their decision making than anything else.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708745#Comment_3708745
As I said, the part about DS I have no issue with. Though, I still am not happy that it hit Plague of all killers and Nurse and Blight remain untouched in that regard. I don't care what others think about this part because in my opinion Plague is strong enough that her power shouldn't also be one of the most effective tunneling tools.
The easiest and most obvious answer to "how did the devs not notice" is the devs do not play their game to the extent that they should.
I would accpet that explanation, if we talked about something that went under the radar for a few weeks. Maybe even a few months because this probably doesn't happen very often. But 5 years? We're not even talking about a killer that was completely neglected. They updated her several times and even gave her some extensive quality of life improvements in 5.3.0. That means, that they did know of the things that were wrong with Plague and they took a closer look at her again. If at that point, they hadn't noticed, then I absolutely cannot believe that this was a bug.
Apart from that, this is not a consistent change either. Flashlight saves don't deactivate her power but Headon and Blast Mine do. Why? Make it all stuns or leave it be. This will also force Plague players to use more Pain Res, Deadlock, Grim Embrace etc. because kicking a gen now has the risk that you could lose your power.
Case and point: the scrapped twins changes. Case and point: Blight's "nerfs" (buffs). Case and point: the new DS animation. Case and point: the eruption meta.
These are all things that I take as short-sightedness. They did not sufficiently consider the implications of these updates. But with Plague that's a completely different situation. It's one thing to not see potential issues but it's another not to notice a bug like this for 5 years. It probably happens rarely but it's definitely something that you notice.
At this point, blight needs 3 dashes base kit, and nurse either needs 1 blink or a complete rework. Yes, it is unfortunate that they remain at the top, but plague is very, VERY close behind them in terms of killer snowball.
The difference is that Plague is fine without her most powerful addons. She is difficult to play against but she is definitely beatable. Nurse is fundamentally flawed. Blight is in a weird spot. On some maps he is fine-ish, on others he becomes an absolute nightmare with pretty much no counterplay and will only be beaten by something even stronger (unrestricted comp SWFs for example).
How would you determine "exactly where you need to be" is, when you've just hooked somebody, 5 gens are left, and you don't have bbq. You start patrolling gens when you have no current targets. I really hope your answer is "well I'd just proxy camp usually."
You have a pretty good idea where survivors spawn (except on Haddonfield because there is no consitency on that map), so you also have a pretty good idea where the other survivors will be. Either that or you use BBQ of course (or you play Doctor, Xenomorph or Artist). This is what people usually consider a part of "game sense". You don't go walking around randomly patrolling gens.
You do not have the time to do that (unless you play something way stronger than your opponent) and you keep track of the gens that have been worked on. That's where you need to be. You never want to run around aimlessly searching gens for survivors. That is a sure way to lose every bit of momentum you built up to that point because it gives survivors free time to reset and do gens.
Something else, that killers learn very fast is that they don't want to defend 7 gens but only a minimum of 3. Which is why even when you aren't in chase, you won't go to a gen that is very hard to defend (Dead Dawg Saloon main building for example) unless you absolutely have to. Half the map is more than enough to defend already.
Basically, you, as a killer, decide where you want the match to happen and you enforce that. This is something that a Nurse, Blight (to some extend) and Spirit don't need to care about but the rest of the cast definitely needs to keep this in mind. Note that this does not mean you always play for a 3gen (although, if you have the choice, then it should be obvious) but you keep note of the gens, survivor positions and movement and resources.
Yes, 5 years. Bugs can go that long without being noticed. Besides, most of plague's changes were number adjustments to her addons. I doubt they go in and check to see if DS disables her power if they're adjusting an addon. So it really is unknown whether or not they knew this existed for a long time or had just recently discovered it and patched it out.
Flashlight saves are blinds not stuns. They have never been stuns. They don't count for stuns for survivor challenges that require stuns. That's why plague doesn't lose power on flashlight blinds.
Short-sightedness is a symptom of not knowing how the game works for the most part and being out of touch. Everyone, and I mean everyone, knew the exact second the twins ptb patch notes came out that those changes were not fit for the live servers. Nobody would even suggest those because they were just straight up broken and unfun. Sure the purpose of the ptb is to test potential changes, but if I said "let's give nurse 5 blinks and reduce her fatigue" you wouldn't have to play a single second of that on ptb to know the outcome.
When I say patrolling gens, I'm not talking about brainlessly walking around to the other side of the map to check every single gen. Of course I meant to check the most high traffic gens and the surrounding areas.