Valuetown
Valuetown
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@100PercentBPMain said:
Any time I've brought friends to dbd, especially people who aren't really familiar with this genre, don't care about being tossed into a hopeless meat grinder.
How do you think shooters like CoD were so popular despite the average person rocking a .25 K/D? Because they have fun with their mates.
The average person really doesn't care as long as they can be a team player and get a mate out. Heck, I sometimes preferred playing with my "play dbd once every 6 months" friends because they're not bitter and crusty about every little thing.
The issue with comparing this to cod is that in cod you can respawn a million times a match and it doesn't matter. With dbd, a survivor essentially can contribute nothing if a killer decides to tunnel, proxy camp, etc, on a whim.
I don't like the idea of balancing this game towards window shopper players. What I mean that is people that play this game because X killer got added or my friend group is playing but I have no interest in playing. We should be balancing this game around the people that play this game because they enjoy the gameplay loop and the potential it has to improve, not for the people that ONLY love getting jump scared, or the people crouching and begging the killer for mercy on Mikaela. The issue with targeting the window shopper players is they are just as likely to leave as they are to come and play, and they do not have the game sense or knowledge to have critical opinions on the state of balance. Balancing around these people is an AWFUL idea for the longevity of the game.
We should be balancing this game around people that view it as a strategy pvp game, which is what it is. Saying dbd is a horror game is how we get into the atrocious state of balance that we're in. Killers being very strong just to "keep the spirit of horror alive" has to be the worst reasoning for the dev's philosophy of balance. The "horror" aspect of this game is gone after 3 hours of gameplay, which is about how long the window shopper players stay.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699487#Comment_3699487
I NEVER run 4 slowdown perks, but usually random perks. Am I allowed to think BP and FB is busted then?
You're allowed to think whatever you'd like. However, if you're ignoring evidence that would conflict with what you previously thought was true, that isn't doing anyone any favors. The whole point of a discussion is to discuss.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699487#Comment_3699487
This isn't pallet or flashlight save though
"pallet/blind" 😊
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698970#Comment_3698970
12 meter radiou
If those numbers are correct, Flashbang save can be countered not only via Lighborn, but also Infectious Fright:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YFDKTBU1WLQJ/image.png
Or Fire Up, that can mess with pickup times
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MIMJTVMD9VBY/image.png
But it would make some killers remove one of the 4 gen regression perks, and that is unimaginable price :)
Yeah it is absolutely hilarious how hard mediocre killers think it is to pick a survivor up. Even without these perks, simply chasing someone for 10 seconds to hit them is more than enough to ward off some background player plays. Those perks you mentioned would help indeed, but even without them, it takes the most miniscule amount of game sense to figure out how to play around background player.
Also the killer entitlement is beyond horrendous. "Well I worked so hard to get this down and hook, I should get it for free since it's my main objective!!!" Meanwhile running 4 of: Pain Res (22.5 seconds of a generator gone), surge (9 seconds of a generator gone), grim embrace (12 seconds of survivor main objective progression blocked), deadlock (30 seconds of the generator most likely to progress the game blocked), corrupt intervention (2 minutes of the map essentially forcing a 3 gen on the side opposite of the killer spawn).
That is why I can't take any killer mains seriously when they start to complain about pallet/flashlight saves, since it's the same thing. It wouldn't be an issue if I didn't have to repair 6-7 gens a game with the amount of free regression the killer gets by just doing what they're supposed to, and sometimes failing to do so (deadlock, corrupt).
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698992#Comment_3698992
Even if I see the guy and chase him, the downed survivor will go under a pallet and become unhookable until i have fully downed the BP user
and we're JUST talking about BP in conjunction with Flashbang, leaving out its synergies with toolboxes, breakout and odd bulbs. The perk is a SWF wet dreamAnd you're ignoring how much slowdown you're generating essentially taking 3 survivors off generators. 1 person is slugged, 1 person is being chased by you, and 1 person would come and assist with the downed survivor. That's a lot of faith you're putting in that 4th survivor to actually do a generator.
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This post was made after discussion in the "Lightborn is Mandatory" thread. If you'd like the full context for the absurdity that is this post, check out that thread too.
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@Commander_Nefarious said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698970#Comment_3698970
and if the killer does a patrol to look for the hiding survivor the downed survivor crawls to a pallet making it a lose lose situation for killer. what do u think about that?
This topic was specifically about flashbang and background player without pallets in play. I will admit being able to run 24 meters as survivor and still get a pallet save is strong, but it is an exhaustion perk for a reason. Also the situation you describe about lose lose really isn't, survivors can only crawl so far, and it only takes 5 or 6 seconds max to check the range I described.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698970#Comment_3698970
That only applies assuming no line-of-sight on the killer. They'll pre-run somewhere you've already checked before pickup
More proof that killers either play this game muted or it's a skill issue. If you can't hear survivors running that short distance away or see scratch marks that are in your face, that's a skill issue.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698858#Comment_3698858
"didn't do your due diligence and check the immediate area"
You do not play enough killer my dude, BP users can and do come in for the save from way (way) outside a reasonable distance to be checkingI do play enough killer.
For a flash grenade to achieve a save, it must be thrown between 1 and 1.5 seconds after the killer's pickup animation begins. Background player gives a survivor 100% haste, meaning 8 m/s. 1.5 seconds max would mean a survivor can successfully save from 12 meters away at most. If a killer can't do a quick 12 meter radius check around them if they anticipate background player in play, that's on the killer, and they don't deserve the hook for not doing their due diligence.
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The whole point of flashbang is to counter the previously uncounterable "shove your face into the wall" tech. It is absolutely healthy for the game, as it requires a survivor to put 45 charges into a generator, or 45 seconds they MUST be doing gens solo (co-op progress messes with the charge per second rate).
If a killer cannot win chases and get downs within 45 seconds, especially with the plethora of perks now available to them that block gens (corrupt, grim embrace, dead man's switch, etc.), not even mentioning killer abilities and chase perks, that is a skill issue, and crying about flashbangs isn't going to get them anywhere. "Well flashbangs aren't the problem, background player is!!" Like other people have posted, if you're allowing a background player to stun you, you didn't do your due diligence as killer and check the immediate area, as there is only a 1 second window for them to get the flashbang to work. It is extremely easy to counter.
I've said multiple times that lightborn is an unhealthy perk for the game. A perk should not be allowed to fully counter an aspect of the game. Even distortion has its limits, with its charges being fairly limited and will run out if a killer runs 2 aura read perks (lethal + bbq, lethal + gearhead, etc).
And before any killer mains want to lie to me, Calm Spirit does not counter Ultimate Weapon the same way Lightborn counters flashlights. Calm spirit nerfs totem cleansing speed, and the blindness (which is very effective, despite what killers want you to believe) still applies to the survivor. Lightborn actually goes above and beyond and reveals the survivors aura to the killer for multiple seconds. They are not the same.
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Enduring is fine as it is. This suggested buff is completely unnecessary, and it says so right in the perk that it doesn't work if a survivor is being carried.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691317#Comment_3691317
An offering not working as intended for a limited time event is not a critical issue IMO that would require a dev team to work overtime to fix.
I still don't know how something that important to an event wasn't caught in testing.
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@Peanits said:
I can lay that concern to rest. The creation of modifier did not impact the Bloodshot Eye offering in any way. It's an unfortunate circumstance where we simply weren't able to squeeze in a fix before the event came to an end.
To give a little peek behind the scenes, most platforms require updates to be sent in advance to go through a certification process - this applies to any game, not just DBD. By the time the bug was discovered, it was too late to add a fix to the patch which released before the end of the event.
It is unfortunate that the console certification process is such a bottleneck when uploading patches. I know steam has a similar verification process when uploading content. How long does the steam verification take for a game like dbd compared to console?
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691294#Comment_3691294
First you are counting weekends with that 6 days figures. Second, the first hotfix was likely already finished for that cycle since you need to test and verify the hotfix changes, send them to get verified, and then have time to fix any issues that come up from verification.
They did not have up until the 25th to fix the offering.
Here's another thing you should know if you are a developer. The client is always going to find bugs that the dev team overlooked.
We'll just have to agree to disagree that they did not have enough time to fix, test, and submit their change. Especially since if you're pushing a product, it's common for devs to work overtime and weekends to fix critical issues. Surely as a developer, you'd know that.
Also "Here's another thing you should know if you are a developer. The client is always going to find bugs that the dev team overlooked." - yes, corner cases and obscure bugs. Not one of the main components to the event. The offering did not work at all. It was not tested properly or they ran out of time due to wrong priorities.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691252#Comment_3691252
Did I say they were only creating new content?
The issue I have is you that are downplaying the time that can go into development and bug fixes. As a developer myself, I've run into many situations of what seemed to be a simple issue become a complicated mess and having to fix an entire underlying system. The same thing can happened when developing new systems, though at least in the specific example you give the devs have stated during the last QA that seeing other survivor loadouts wasn't a current priority.
But as far as the offering issue. The event stated March 18th (Monday) and the offering was Killswitched that evening. Then the only hotfix during the event was on the 25th. Likely the hotfix was finalized a few days before (not counting weekends) so it could be verified and fixed if any issues came up. At my job, we have a similar process where we have a week to test and prepare the patch for release.
For an event barely lasting 2 weeks and the first hotfix being finalized (Chapter was the 12th) when the issued appeared, there was no time to really address the offering issue.
As a developer myself, I also understand that changes can be more complicated than they appear. However, this bug appears to be very small; as all the offering did was provide action speed, aura read, and an increase to the protection duration. That is my perception with only the information that I'm privy to and my knowledge of software.
You cannot tell me that the bug this small could not have been verified and fixed within the 6 days they had available to them between its identification and subsequent patch if they had made it a priority.
Also, was this event not play tested? How does one of the most important parts of an event, the offering, get through testing riddled with bugs? That is something I cannot wrap my head around. It's not like this was a corner case or obscure scenario, this was the event's main offering. What that says to me is that the devs either do not have 1) enough people to do the job, 2) correct priorities when it comes to development.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691170#Comment_3691170
Seeing it as complaining is short sighted. It's a concern of where the development resources for the game are going. It's great that the players care about stuff like that. The devs would be less fortunate if we didn't get these types of posts.
I appreciate this comment very much. Thank you for understanding my intentions 😊
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691225#Comment_3691225
You've decided that the work to create new chapters (which the devs already told is roughly a year long process) is simple which shows you don't actually understand the work that goes into development. While code reuse is important as there's no reason to rebuild the same stuff twice, it's not as simple as just copy and paste code from different killers powers and pray it works out.
Not to mention it takes a few days to get the approval of a patch to consoles so even if the devs immediately got to work on fixing the bugged offering doesn't mean it would be done in time for the verification of the first hotfix. Considering it's a time limited event, a single offering not working that was quickly killswitch likely wasn't important enough to fix over current projects the teams are taking.
You want to complain about the devs being bad at time management but you fail to consider that the reason the offering wasn't fixed was because they had more important things to focus on.
Your assumptions of my knowledge on the development process are of course incorrect.
I have nothing wrong with copy-pasting code, as I understand the value of it. I made my comment because it takes significantly less time to copy-paste, so there is more time for them to bug fix, etc. Since coding is the last thing done in the development process (Concept → Art and Modeling → Coding), there is of course at least one developer that can spend an afternoon fixing a single bug.
If the devs are prioritizing other content or changes, then that is their decision, and I have no problem with that. But you cannot tell me that they are so held up on creating new content, such as seeing loadouts in the pregame lobby (that we have been begging for for years), that there's not a single dev that could have fixed that bug the day the event started.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691212#Comment_3691212
If you think it's so easy, then go build your own DBD rival.
I can provide feedback and speculation without having to build my own game lmao. If that was supposed to be some kind of "gotcha" comment, it didn't hit the mark.
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@Crowman said:
There's no reason to believe this April Fools mode took away much development from other things. We had Chucky into Alan Wake into Unknown/Sable for the past 3 big patches on top of seeing multiple adjustments to perks and killers. Not to mention the bug fixes we see in every patch notes. Big studios are going to have multiple teams working on different stuff concurrently.
As for the event offering, there likely wasn't a reason to fix it. Any fix for the offering was going to be delayed by the standard process of getting a patched approved for consoles and by the time that got out, the event was already going to be mostly over.
Surely a 1Kb patch is able to be vetted and pushed to consoles within the span of the two week event it's designed for right? Also, sure we had Alan Wake, Chucky, and the Unknown; and the art team does a fantastic job at modeling, animating, and designing content for the game, but taking the models and actually putting code to them is what I'm talking about. Most of the new perks and killer abilities are copy-pasted amalgamations that could realistically be coded in a day's worth of time. The only novel thing that was added recently was the invocation, which I would understand if it took a few week's development time.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
WE can't have fun things in the game without someone complaning about it :(
As I said in the post, I am grateful for the mode. My post is mainly about the development process and how extremely slow it is for this game.
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@CarlAlc7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689724#Comment_3689724
Literally who cares about the blindness anyway ? If you took the screaming from Ultimate Weapon and only kept the blindness literally nobody would be running this perk anymore (just like they won't after the upcoming nerfs as well).
If you think 30 seconds of blindness isn't useful, I can't help you, so trying to convince you otherwise would be a complete waste of my time. But that's besides the point, since your whole comment is moving the goalposts of my original comment. Since calm spirit does not prevent blindness, it is not a full counter, and cannot be equated to lightborn. It's really that simple.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689700#Comment_3689700
Calm spirit and in some ways vigil.
Calm Spirit did not counter ultimate weapon the same way lightborn does to flashlight and flashbangs. Killers love this factually false statement so much. It removed the scream, but the blindness stayed.
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I think the devs should run a two-week long experiment:
Once a killer wins a game (3k or 4k), before they can play another killer game, they have to win as a survivor (escape through gates, hatch does not count). They'll quickly realize how necessary perks like adrenaline, off the record, sprint burst, etc. really are in the current landscape of dbd. Likewise for survivor. As much as I strongly dislike pain res, pop, sloppy butcher, stbfl, B tier killers and below require them to have a fighting chance.
Ultimately, I'd rather have new gameplay mechanics and systems adjusted to fix issues like this rather than requiring band-aid fixes to the meta via perks, but I'm not holding my breath for any meaningful changes any time soon.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682395#Comment_3682395
I understand that too. What I'm trying to say is that it's not a wasted move, as the cycle of getting the Killer's Hook perk and the Survivor's Hook state progression are also delayed. I have often experienced in actual combat that there is no such thing as a negative result. Of course, it would be a different story if they were doing something similar to stupid things like holding a flashlight and chasing them endlessly, but in that case, SWF is probably using efficient actions that are unique to SWF to reduce losses as much as possible.
It's not a wasted move, but nothing is being done positively for the survivors being chased. The killer comes out net positive in most cases as survivor resources are being used for little loss on the killer's part. Especially if the killer is running something like forced hesitation, stbfl, rapid brutality, etc.
There is far too much risk involved running ftp and buckle up for such a minimal lateral move for the survivor side. There are builds that 4 man swfs can run that make it look unfair, but as I said above, that's an issue with the disparity between solo q and swfs rather than these perks inherently being a problem for killers, as there are plenty of ways to counter it, with or without perks to do so.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682352#Comment_3682352
That's true in simple math, but in reality, killers can't use their hook perk before the generation is complete, or killer give up buckle survivors to prevent the gen completing in the key place. Buckle FTP is fully effective and contributes to the Survivor team's victory.
I was not talking about gen regression, I was talking about gen slowdown. A killer is essentially chasing 2 survivors for the price of 1 with ftp and buckle up, and there is still the 66% slowdown because the second survivor is not progressing the game.
In terms of gen regression, from a macro standpoint, pain res and pop are more effective when there are fewer gens remaining. Survivors have a higher difficulty finishing the final gens, as it is easier to patrol 3 gens instead of 7, and delaying that final gen is extremely easy to do with these two perks. The killer snowballs from there, and having 0 hooks with 2 gens done quickly swings into a 4k.
Even if ftp and buckle up delay pain res and pop by another 20 seconds or so, 1) the survivors are using more limited resources with pallets and their items, and 2) the game is still 66% slower than if that second survivor would just get on a generator. The time afforded to the killer by essentially chasing two survivors more than makes up for the time lost if ftp and buckle up are used (assuming the killer doesn't just hit the ftp survivor before it is used).
So both in simple math and in practice, this is correct, assuming the killer is actually trying to win the game.
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From a mathematical and logical standpoint, running FtP and buckle up is only hurting the survivors if it's used at any time before the last gen and end game.
At the start of an ideal match, 1 survivor is getting chased and 3 are working on gens. Most times with FtP and buckle up, a second survivor is running around the map right behind the one getting chased. This drops the total gens being worked on to 2. Using the same percentage formula as the devs do for perks, this is a 66% survivor-induced gen slowdown based on the amount of charges being put into generators. To put that in perspective, tier 3 pentimento is 30%.
It is also fairly easy to counter the Ftp play before it even happens: just hit the survivor chasing you. It really is that simple. I can understand the frustration if light-footed and maybe even mettle of man are being used in tandem with FtP and buckle up, as you can't hear the survivor behind you, but even even with that in mind, I find it hard to believe there wasn't an opportunity that a killer (unless they look at the ground during chase) would not be able to see the other survivor running after them during a chase.
Killers often forget that if any survivor wants to make a build that isn't designed for sitting on generators, their odds of winning the match decrease astronomically. Even though a survivor has dedicated their entire build to keeping someone alive in chase, the build itself is not designed to progress the game. In fact, using FtP on a downed survivor gives the killer more pressure than they had before, as after 10 seconds, two survivors are downable as opposed to just one. This requires using limited resources (medkits) or further wasting other survivors' time by having to be healed for 16 seconds once the broken status has expired.
The issue here isn't the perk setup, it's the disparity in effectiveness a coordinated team vs an uncoordinated team has with builds. Of course the top 0.1% of survivor players will be able to use these perks in ways other players won't, but nerfing perks into the ground for normal players just to make the highest level "even" isn't the best way to keep a game alive. I'd rather have communication tools be added to the game before we make any buff/nerf judgement calls on perks, as shrinking the gap between solo q and swf will help get a more accurate read on the perk's effectiveness if the avenue for communication is mostly the same between the two.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673535#Comment_3673535
I am reading what you are writing, sure team sport, work as a team. I used "team sport" there in quotes, i wasn't being literal. The point being that the point of the game is that survivors are supposed to work as a team.
Now in terms of "the devs need to add things" they do. There are tons of aura perks that show your teammates what you are doing, show you what your teammates are doing, there are items that allow you to mark locations on the map, there are tons of coordination things. Yeah they aren't voice chat, and this is precisely why i think they need to separate the queues so that SWF get their own queue, because it IS an entirely different game.
As for your last bit, i think you and i would both agree that camping and tunneling aren't fun things right? So why should those existing justify the game being unbalanced? I think things would be in a much better state if we eliminated those things entirely and balanced the game around hooks and chases instead of kills and made camping and tunneling completely impossible. Wouldn't you agree?
I disagree that a survivor should have to run a perk to know what their teammates are doing. I don't have to run a perk equivalent in LoL, CS, or OW for me to be able to communicate with my team. And knowing survivor auras, like I said about the new UI showing who's doing what, is not communication, it's information (they're not the same thing). I have to infer what people are going to do instead of them telling me or me making a request. Me knowing where my teammates are seldom helps at all because at the end of the day I can't communicate any coordination plans to them. You wouldn't have to split the queues if the devs would provide a way to communicate information to one another during the match. Your game sense and ability to communicate information does not change whether you're in a 4 man or solo q.
As for the devs adding things, no. The glass bead for the map is the ONLY item in the game that allows for "communication." But all it does is mark a location. What about that location does the map holder want me to know? Is there a totem? An almost complete gen? A trap? Fully stacked medkit? Even with a beam in the sky, I have to infer what it means. Also the beacon requires you to be able to see it. It's useless in indoor maps. So no, there aren't "tons of coordination things" that exist in dbd.
As for your last paragraph, I agree, but I don't know what point you're trying to make. You mentioned that killers killing one survivor doesn't win them the game, but that's exactly what camping and tunneling do, which wins comp killers their games. Yes I would prefer it not to be the case, but I'm not using that to justify anything. I, like everyone else that plays this game, wants a fun and interactive experience where player actions matter, instead of whatever we have now.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673524#Comment_3673524
Sure, they do. But it is still a team game. The devs have even stated as much before, that survivors are a team. if they balanced the game so that a single survivor is as strong as the killer, then a killer should win if they kill a single survivor. But they don't. So that logic is flawed still.
Again, you aren't reading what I'm writing. Working as a team vs team sport like you mentioned are two different things. If the devs want survivors to work as a team in more ways than just existing on the same map as one another, add methods for them to do so in the base game.
Also your comment about killing a single survivor is quite humorous, considering that proxy camping and tunneling (which is killing a single survivor to win the game) is the most popular thing to do on killer right now, even in comp dbd. I'm honestly curious if we're talking about the same game or if you're just trolling me 😂
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673515#Comment_3673515
By literal design, survivors are 4 players and the killer is 1. By DESIGN the killer should be stronger than an individual survivor. Otherwise the game may as well just be a 1v1. So therefore it stands to reason that survivors are TEAM. Yeah, solo queue exists. But do you think that other team based games ONLY have queuing as a 5 man? LoL has solo queue, CS has solo queue, overwatch has solo queue, and those are team-based games.
Did you read anything that I wrote? I'm going to guess no, because if you did, you would have noticed that I said: "add what most every other team sport has: communication during the match." Do you know what LoL, CS, AND OW have? That's right!! Communication during the match!! Text chats, contextual pings, voice chat!! All of which dbd has nothing of by itself to help non-4 man swfs communicate during a match. So yet again, no dbd cannot be considered a team sport until a feature like that is added.
I also never said that the survivors should be stronger than the killer. I said killers can make more mistakes to illustrate the point that just because "average" survivors are paired with an "average" killer, doesn't mean somehow the killer forgets how to play. They still know what they're doing to get downs and hooks, and can make more mistakes vs a survivor (which all survivor skill comes down to is macro and looping) all of which an average player lacks skill in vs high mmr, meaning it's even worse in the disparity of skill level the more average you get in mmr.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673405#Comment_3673405
Right, but playing survivor by design is a "team sport". If your teammates do badly, your team should lose. If you don't like the team aspect of survivor, then you probably should try playing killer instead where its all on you without having to worry about a team.
And you talk about the "Average" survivor player. But at the high level this game still heavily favors survivors, as comp games often show. But you may point out "average" survivors. But "average" survivors are going against "average" killers. So you don't have to worry about the high level killers who are benefitting from a 0.3 second difference in landing a hit, which realistically isn't affecting things much at that "Average" level.
This whole comment is fundamentally wrong on every level imaginable.
Sure, survivors need to work as a team, but calling survivor a team sport? Do you think everyone queueing up as survivor is a 4 man swf with full discord comms and clock callouts? I'm sure killers would love to blame their losses on 4 man swfs every time but come on😂 Even as a duo queue, which most survivor groups are, you are only communicating with 1/3 of your teammates. You want to call survivor a team sport, add what most every other team sport has: communication during the match. I'm not saying go so far as to add voice chat, but add contextual pings or pre-recorded survivor voice lines that can be used to coordinate. And no, seeing someone on a generator with the new UI, and hoping your teammates can infer and guess who's going to go for the unhook or take chase is not communication in the way you're thinking it is. It would also help to shrink the gap between the solo q and swf experience for both survivor and killer, and help make meaningful perk adjustments that feel fair no matter what size of group you're queueing up as.
With a nurse profile pic, I'm sure you're aware that most good nurses, blights, spirits, weskers, etc. can absolutely get downs within 30 seconds of hooking someone. The issue with you comparing "power levels" in the way you are is that 1) the mmr system is not doing what it should be doing, so that is a moot point anyway, but also, 2) killers are able to make 10 times more mistakes than survivors, and still win the match. If a survivor makes one mistake, that has essentially sealed the fate of the rest of the team. For one mistake. A survivor who is "average" that can't loop a tile, gets stuck on objects, and doesn't know what half the killer roster does vs an "average" killer who just holds w, doesn't mind game, and presses m1 when they're close enough isn't as even as you think it is.
The only thing I will agree with is sure, the top 0.000000001% survivor players (who are 4 man swfs) can escape almost every game no questions asked. But comp dbd vs high mmr are miles apart in terms of skill level and coordination. To equate comp dbd (high level), where the 4 man swf eats, sleeps, and breathes dbd (and can still lose by the way!) vs a high mmr match, which can have people who shouldn't be there with under 80 hours with the way the mmr system works, is something I can't say anyone with any sort of intellectual honesty would use as a valid argument to say the survivor experience is in a good place.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672746#Comment_3672746
If you are having survivors go down every 22.5 seconds, painres or no, you are gonna lose. You should still be able to outrepair the painres.
I have no control over my teammates. But that's besides the point because killer has received so many passive buffs and maps have been adjusted to favor killer for the past two years since 6.1.0, making it harder for an average survivor player to survive. If you genuinely think that an average survivor lasts longer that 25 seconds in chase, I don't know what to tell you. Just because you and I can last more than a minute in chase, doesn't mean the average player can, and a single perk shouldn't be able to carry a killer player just by doing their main objective of hooking survivors.
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If everything else about the game stays the same (because I'd prefer to have other changes than what I'm about to suggest, but we can only expect so much) I'd rather have the scourge hook logic adjusted so that multiple scourges can't spawn right next to each other. Keep 4 scourge hooks, adjust spawn logic, and also make the regression 25% of current progress on the most progressed gen.
For the spawn logic, make it so that when scourge hooks are selected, unless there are no other hooks available, prevent an additional hook from spawning within 32 meters of another. Killer carry speed is 92%, and at 16 seconds to carry, the killer can almost travel 59 meters in that time. It would help solve not having a scourge available at all parts of the map as killer, and it would also benefit sabo builds if a survivor so chose to run one, as sabo'ing a scourge would be an actual meaningful play, since another hook cannot spawn right next to the one that got sabo'd.
For 25% regression of current as opposed to 25% regression of max, there is nothing more annoying on survivor than when the killer snowball starts because pain res exists and just carries the game for the killer. Once one person is hooked, the game essentially enters a standstill with pain res (and/or pop) in play. 25% of a gen is 22.5 seconds for one survivor. Once a survivor is hooked, another survivor is being chased, another survivor is getting the unhook, and that leaves only one survivor that can work on gens. In your average game of dbd, that next person being chased is going down within 30 seconds, and getting hooked on another scourge hook. Within that time, that one survivor has barely made any progress on the gen that was scourged initially, and guess what, it's getting scourged again, putting the gen progress right back to where it was after it was scourged initially. I personally don't think this is fun for anyone involved, killer or survivor.
The survivor and killer experience is nose-diving, and I'd argue that this is one of the perks to blame. It's a band aid solution to bhvr's refusal to iterate on their base game mode, and the gen regression meta has always been the most stale experience I've ever had in any game. I've been a strong advocate of multiple win conditions for killer and survivor that don't involve hooks or escaping through exit gates, but considering PC doesn't have loadout previews in lobby after almost 7 and a half years, I'm not holding my breath that those changes are coming any time in the next decade.
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All I'm going to say is if a match is at a point where the killer needs to hit through a heal tech at the exit gate to potentially get another hook, they've already lost the game. Giving them a free pity hook because "they should have the authority to pick up" is not where I want this game to go. Not only is it wasting time for everyone involved, but if the killer didn't gain enough pressure to avoid a heal tech scenario with multiple people, they shouldn't get a potential free kill out of it. And for the inevitable "well 4 adrenalines," the killer let 4 survivors get to endgame, and the perk that a survivor has to earn by making it to endgame, that only triggers once, was awarded to them.
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The devs, whether purposefully or inadvertently, did change one thing about this map: the portal room gen always spawns the single gen configuration. I have not once, in my 30+ times on this map since its return have seen anything but the single gen in portal room. So tilt it maybe 1 or 2 more percentage points towards killer.
I'm genuinely sad this map is back with no changes to make it more fair for both sides. Meanwhile it seems like every map that could even be considered "survivor favored" is on a watchlist with 10+ threads of killer mains discussing why the width of the map is 15 meters too long, and how we need to gut every single tile in favor of 15 terrible unsafe pallets like what they did with half the coldwind maps (cough cough turn them into hawkins cough cough). Perhaps the devs didn't touch this map because this is what their ideal map looks like: one or two tiles that are actually decent against m1 killers, and the rest of the map is filled with garbage pallets. If killers don't have to work for their 2 free kills, hitting that 60% kill rate is going to be easy!
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661099#Comment_3661099
What do you think my escape rate would be if I used this build regularly
I'm not here to speculate on your escape rate, but I do know that it would not be 100%. This discourse has been nice, but I'm going to actually go play some dbd games instead of talking about them. Good luck in your future games!
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661090#Comment_3661090
I'm obviously not going to play 100 games with a coward build because that would be an extremely poor use of my time. I work a full time job and I would rather not spend every evening for a week proving my point to some guy on the forums. I have played with this build before and it's actually hard not to survive, Turjay made a video doing the same thing a couple years ago showing how stupid keys are as a concept.
Referencing a video made "years ago" for a live service game that has had at least 25 major updates since the video came out is not a great way to try and prove your point lol. Don't worry, you most likely wouldn't have to play 100 games anyway because the 100% escape rate would probably prove to be incorrect around the 10th-20th game mark
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661083#Comment_3661083
The people you play with have data? do you play with Mathieu Cote? Why aren't you loading into dbd right now with a coward loadout and a key to prove me wrong?
We can track our own individual data on spreadsheets. Or even use our own memories!
Also it's funny that you said "100% escape rate guaranteed with urban + key," and I suggested playing 100 games to prove it, then we talked about how often you'd have stacks, wouldn't have stacks, and now you want me to play 1 game to "prove" your original point. These goalposts are on wheels.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661074#Comment_3661074
You don't know your MMR and I don't know mine, but I bet if you used Distortion for 10 games in a row, you would run out of stacks maybe once. It's extremely rare because this perk is currently overtuned. Don't know what they were thinking.
True, we don't know our exact MMR, which is why I've been saying ranges this entire time. I and the people I play with have data that is quite the contrary regarding distortion, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. But back to the main point: no, urban evasion + key does not equal a 100% escape rate.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661066#Comment_3661066
30 seconds is an easy goal, that is the length of a chase when a survivor just runs forward and presses no buttons. Now consider shack, main bulding loops, and pallet gyms. but sure it's because my MMR is bad and yours is good.
Blight, nurse, wesker, huntress, spirit, demo, deathslinger, knight, chucky. (to name a few)
Just because you're playing an m1 killer with no chase ability doesn't mean everyone else is as well. All these killers can easily get 2 hits on a survivor within 30 seconds, even with all the tiles you listed in play. And I never said that your MMR was bad, just that we were in different ranges.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661040#Comment_3661040
How is my gameplay experience not the experience of every distortion user ever? you're doing a gen while someone's getting chased and you regen 1-2 stacks for free, it's really really easy to keep your stacks. The killer would have to be stacking aura reading to a counter-intuitive level to nullify distortion. It's currently way too easy to regen stacks with this perk. Claudetting is by far the easiest and most reliable way to get out, try it for yourself. Survivor is a cake walk if all you genuinely care about is escaping.
Like I said before, MMR is most likely why you have games where you're full up on distortion charges and I'm not. Distortion takes 30 seconds to recharge 1 token. In the range that I play, if a killer takes 30 seconds in chase on average, they've already lost the entire game. That's why most killers are able to end chase before that time is up. (Not even mentioning threading tiles while looping, so you won't be in the terror radius for very long anyway) If you're able to in most games recharge 1 or even 2 tokens on a gen because the killer cannot catch a survivor, our gameplay experiences are 100% different based on MMR, which is absolutely fine, but we're comparing granny smith apples to honeycrisp apples here. Not exactly incompatible like apples to oranges, but there's a difference for sure.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661012#Comment_3661012
I play multiple survivor games every day. I use distortion for its passive bonus, I'm not a coward. It regens a stack every time someone just so happens to be running the killer near my gen, and killers including myself would rather have more direct bonuses that result in easy downs or gen regression than seeing an aura occasionally.
and your last response is like hearing the phrase "money talks" and going "akshually that's impossible"
I don't know what passive bonus you're referring to, unless by passive bonus you mean the perk doing what it says it's supposed to do which is blocking aura and scratch marks, and what you meant was that you don't try to hide when using it, but you're still using the perks active effects as intended? With the way you phrased that, I have no idea.
Also no, using your hyperbolic comment to reiterate your own gameplay experience that it is possible to run out of charges to prove my point on distortion is not the same as 🤓 taking an idiom at face value lol
But at the end of the day, it's still possible to find, hook, and tunnel a survivor running this modified build of distortion + urban evasion + calm spirit + left behind (my addition) + key before the survivor has a chance to use it for its intended purpose. If you run 100 games with this build and play it how you want, I have a hunch you'll find that you won't have a 100% escape rate before even half of the games are done.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660989#Comment_3660989
- No one uses more than 2 detection perks, it's a waste of good slowdown slots
- I use distortion every day on jeff, my main survivor, and I think I ran out of stacks once this whole week. stupid easy.
- again, distortion doesn't run out
1) Addons with aura read exist, as I said. Lethal, bbq, glowing concoction huntress would like to say hello. Don't forget the S tier killers that don't need slowdown: blight, nurse, spirit. Besides, all you really need is pain res or pop for killers that aren't D tier as adequate slowdown in most lobbies, giving killers much more room to run anything else they want. It's also dependent on the MMR ranges for sure, so your experience and my experience with aura read abundance are probably completely different.
2) This doesn't really mean anything because I don't know how many games you played this week. You could've played 4 games all week and ran out of stacks in only that one game. So 25% of the time you ran out. Also like I said, you could follow the killer around doing nothing but regaining charges, but that's not really setting your team up for success, and it's not really a useful data point in determining the frequency in which distortion runs out of charges in an average game.
Also I highly doubt you're not being caught in the games you play on survivor. You use distortion every day but are still getting hooked right? Just like how slapping on urban evasion doesn't prevent you from being found, which is why you won't have a 100% escape rate if you run a key with urban evasion.
3) "I think I ran out of stacks once this whole week" and "distortion doesn't run out" are mutually exclusive. You can't have both.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660893#Comment_3660893
- you can play 100 games and never see a killer with all of those perks at the same time
- Distortion never runs out of stacks, don't pretend otherwise
- Calm Spirit
1) Considering I listed 6+ perks and killers can only run 4, yes that's correct. But my point was that if a killer is running lethal, they tend to run another perk or addon that gives them aura read such as bbq or gearhead, so 2 of your distortion perks are usually gone before you're even seen by the killer.
2) Literally just wrong. For this to be the case for you, you are following the killer around the map with bond as they're chasing someone else. I have had distortion depleted as survivor and have depleted survivor's distortions many many times. For you to say that it never happens is literally just wrong lol
3) Calm Spirit "counters" ultimate weapon. The killer can still find you via other methods as listed above.👍️
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660761#Comment_3660761
Of course I struggle. I main an m1 killer and gens fly even though my chases are short. I have to run slowdown and slug to keep survivors occupied and receive much rage for it, and if you tell me that you have time for a 12-hook game then I know that you're either versing yellow perk noobs or you're lying.
And you or anyone can achieve a 100% escape rate by doing exactly what I said to do. just key and urban evasion. Sure you contributed nothing, but if all that matters to you is escaping, that is a guaranteed escape.
I'm sorry, you're not getting 100% escape rate with that build if the killer has any aura read. Even if you run distortion, lethal, bbq, nowhere to hide, friends til the end, ultimate weapon, etc will counter everything you're trying to do, and those perks are extremely popular. Good luck using your key when you're geting proxy camped and tunneled because you will eventually be found.
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Something something "all playstyles are valid," something something "slugging is a strategy to win."
It's allowed in theory because the devs have dug themselves into a hole with the above sentiments, despite them going out of their way to dissuade certain playstyles like camping and tunneling (to no effect unfortunately). Also, killer has become the biggest ego-fueled role in any game that I have ever played, since essentially to "win," you have to be the one that beat the other four, meaning you were better than four other people combined (power imbalance favoring killer notwithstanding). When this happens, people showboat to boost their ego, hence why a lot of killers bleed the last "losers" out of the game. Could you imagine the amount of whining killer mains would produce if they couldn't show how "amazing" they are by bm-ing like that? I'm sure the amount of posts made about the topic would be rivaled only by the time Wesker got disabled, and the devs would have to respond accordingly if they wanted to keep that part of the killer playerbase.
People slug to slow the game down, sure I can understand that, but bleeding out for 4 minutes has to be the biggest waste of everyone's time. The symptom of why killers bleed out would be fixed if you could "give up" after a minute or two of bleeding out. Ultimately, I agree with you that slugging in this way should lead to temp bans if done enough.
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Tunneling is a symptom of a much deeper problem, but much like in real life, symptoms can kill what they are affecting.
The core of the problem is outdated mechanics and either a direct or indirect refusal from the devs to implement anything that would provide a fun experience that has depth. Now, I'm not saying that chases and macro strategy aren't fun, because they are, but like what other posters are saying, it's not fun for the person being tunneled at all. At the end of the day, dbd is a game, and it's purpose by definition is to provide entertainment value and fun for those that play it. A survivor's fun shouldn't be at the complete mercy of the killer, and vice versa is true also. You should be able to have fun on both sides regardless of if you win or lose because you were actually able to participate in the game. There is no reality in which you'll be able to convince me that being tunneled by a lethal pursuer blight with an ego the size of Jupiter, who proxy camps and tunnels off hook to secure the +1 to his win streak is fun for that first survivor. They threw what? 3 pallets tops before dying, getting hooked, having nowhere to run to because they got hooked in the dead zone they were looping at, and now they just are out of the match. Likewise, having 4 survivors running op toolboxes or medkits against an m1 killer makes it feel like you're powerless from the get go.
Most killers that tunnel feel that it's the only way they can secure a win with the current mechanics of the game. Same with survivors that run op toolboxes to do gens extremely quickly. Think of this issue like a chess board, except the chess board is only one column, and both the survivor and killer are opposing kings. Winning a chase as either side will allow you to move your piece, until eventually one of the players cannot move, since they are blocked by the opponent, and will "lose" the game. I say lose in quotes because in chess, if you have no valid moves, it's a stalemate, meaning it's a draw. That's how it feels when neither side runs a strong build. The killer gets around 2 kills, and survivors get 2 out, the community defined version of a draw. Running an op build essentially "upgrades" your piece to a stronger one, like a queen, where now you actually can checkmate the king. Running 4 slowdown on blight essentially auto-wins you the game if you know what you're doing (see 1500 win streak blight as proof).
Keeping with the chess analogy, the devs need to add more columns to the chess board, which will allow for more pieces in play. Players have thought of many things over the years for this. An afterlife for survivors which can allow them to help their team in various ways even after they have died. A convoluted yet completely manageable side objective to resurrect a survivor. Each killer having their own unique win condition and lose condition. For example, spirit could have a side objective where she must go around collecting a certain number of Yamaoka relics before having her power upgraded into something even more powerful than it already is. Meanwhile, the survivors can collect ofuda at mini shrines that spawn on the map, and seal off the relics, preventing the spirit from picking them up, and with enough sealed, actually weaken the spirit. Give every map unique interactable elements, like how powering the main generator of Lery's opens up more window vaults on the higher level, or Nostromo has the steam exhaust pipes. Make the elements actually impactful to the overall game and fun to do.
It's this depth of gameplay which provides an avenue for tunneling to be an afterthought, if not a losing strategy. As long as tunneling remains possible in the game, it will happen. However, providing a deeper gameplay experience, and providing things for a survivor to do even if they've been tunneled in an afterlife, will be more fun in the long run for everybody. I know this will take a lot of dev time and commitment, but I do believe it is 100% needed for the enjoyment and longevity of this game.
tl;dr Treating the symptom of tunneling won't do anything in the long run. Treating the root of the issue by adding depth to gameplay should be where the devs start to focus.
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Remember when they shadow buffed surge a few months back so that survivors screamed when the gen regressed, but still to this day have yet to address that as a bug or feature in any forum post or patch note?
I honestly could see them removing the line about being able to read the totem's aura in an upcoming patch, and somehow it wouldn't surprise me at all.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633133#Comment_3633133
No u. Ultimate weapon and friends till the end both have hard perk counters in calm spirit and distortion respectively.
Calm spirit counters some other perks, as well as an entire killer power.
Distortion has way more perks that it counters as well
Both have hard counters that are useful outside of just their counter
Like what many of the other reply-ers said, all of those perks do not eliminate anything. Distortion has 3 charges, and it's more like 2, because usually the build you're "countering" is lethal plus one other aura read at least, and your tokens will be gone in no time. The blindness and exposed status effects still get applied in both scenarios as well, so it's not the same as lightborn is to flashlights.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633076#Comment_3633076
Some of those do have hard perk counters. That's already in the game. Even sloppy butcher has a "counter." It's not as hard of a counter, but the perk does exist
Factually just wrong. The only one I'd be willing to give you is no mither + plot twist to counter corrupt intervention, but I wouldn't consider that a hard counter in the same regard as lightborn because you're forcing yourself to play injured the entire match, which is an active detriment to the survivor.
There is no perk that ignores sloppy butcher by getting rid of hemorrhage and mangled without healing. "Just heal through it a little bit faster" is not the same as "ignore both status effects as if they weren't applied to you."
The only other perk I could see applying here is repressed alliance to counter pop; however, it doesn't even do that. Pop has a 40 second use timer, and repressed alliance (apart from having a requirement to activate!), is only 30 seconds, making it completely useless in practice.
But this is all besides the main point that every perk I listed does not get ignored or removed by any perk in the game the same way lightborn ignores flashlights. An equip and forget perk, not a "I have to change my whole playstyle to get one single use of value to counter a meta perk" perk.
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Man, I wish I could slap on a perk that could ignore pain res, pop, save the best for last, sloppy butcher, corrupt intervention, surge, dead man's switch, rapid brutality, ultimate weapon, friends 'til the end, plaything, no way out, etc. simply because I didn't want to deal with them.
If killers are allowed to run the most unbearable 4 regression perk builds, tunnel, proxy camp, etc. to their heart's content, I should be able to run my flashlight and be able to use it. This idea of "oh well survivor bully squads" really falls apart when 95% of the time it's the killer who is out here trying to have the most mind numbing game imaginable with slowdown and other builds, then slugging for the 4k.
As soon as you give me a perk that says "the current generator you're working on does not suffer from regression events while you are working on it," I will gladly concede lightborn in its current state. Until then, I see no difference because they are both ignoring a core mechanic of this game.