UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@Quizzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635022#Comment_3635022
And it's funny in swf. It's the only perk that can stack with itself when it comes to gen boost. So me and my duo can add bloodpact together and get chased together while others do gens.
That's monstrous xD
Very clever xD
EDIT: Though I should be quiet... we've seen what being clever can do 😏😏😏😏
Sorry BHVR, I couldn't resist 😉
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Yeah I'll use it time to time. 36m is a lot bigger than people think.
I still maintain people are ignoring its potential as an anti-3-gen perk, and on a map like Midwich or the Game, the perk will be pretty damned strong.
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I like the idea of: -
- Deadline with Autodidact
- Boon: Illumination with Overzealous
- Champion of Light, is his best perk, but I suck with flashlights...
So yeah, I'll be grabbing it.
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@Peanits said:
There are currently no plans to reintroduce the achievements for the Stranger Things DLC. When the Chapter was originally removed, the achievements were repurposed as generic achievements to ensure they were still possible to earn without owning the content.
Oh... fair play... Demo ahoy then I suppose xD
Cheers for the fast response 😅
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Perk changes are fine, Quick Gambit is actually pretty respectable, and will work for 3 gens and small / 2 floor maps. STBFL is the healthy change, anti tunnel would be better, but at least it isn't gutted.
Billy fine, Blight... not sure about adrenaline vial... I'll leave that to more knowledgeable players.
Onryõ... I'll wait until I see it, but my thoughts have been shared in other threads... I don't have a crystal ball, but I think these latest changes crucify her against any group of survivors smart enough to grab a tape before they work on a gen, especially if they work in pairs.
I could see the original PTB Sadako being a threat, but also being counterable. This new Sadako... I struggle to see why I should care about condemn. She has to hook me to lock condemn in, and as long as I disable her TV and occasionally deposit a tape, I fail to see what she can do to kill me outside normal hooks.
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The thing that's bizarre to me is if you look at all the Onryõ feedback, a lot of people were asking for buffs, not nerfs. There were a few outliers asking for nerfs, but a greater number were asking for buffs.
I personally felt she would be fine with this rework, any changes that would be needed would be minimal... slight tweaks here and there: -
- The green condemn add on toning down a bit.
- Condemn across different floors toning down a little bit.
- The inserting of tapes slowed down back to 2s
- The visual indicator of powered TVs affecting you could be argued either way...
Several content creators all said she was decently strong with a couple of viable builds, a few like Otz even said she was kinda low tier again... with this mix of opinions she was not far off perfect for what I could see...
I know BHVR aren't stupid, but I really want to know who it was they were listening to in order to come to these nerfs as a conclusion, because nothing I've read or seen even remotely hinted this level of gutting was required.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634561#Comment_3634561
Pig was on the road map too, yes?
Next nerfs for her.
Nurse is here with her all problems. SM is still the most hated killer with failed rework. But once again, they target'ed weak killer instead of real issues.
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634615#Comment_3634615
If Pig gets nerfs like Sadako right now, i will leave the game and this forum due to me losing faith in the developers of DBD.
... You guys just sent one hell of a shudder up my spine... better than any killer has ever managed in DBD 😶😶😶😶😶😶😶😶😶😶
Sadako looked so promising in the PTB, I trust BHVR are receptive to feedback, because damn if my gut is right, she'll need some bloody loud feedback.
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Oh wow... I was not expecting that...
The tunneling stance does kinda make sense... but there is a sense that this is kinda on the survivor for letting their condemn stacks get so high... The fact you can insert a tape in her face makes this change rather strange to me.... the whole point of Sadako to my understanding after this change was her power was the same as the Pig. She is a basic M1 killer, doesn't even have a dash like the Pig... but her power is a slowdown you ignore at your peril.... now it seems you can kinda ignore it again...
Similarly the condemn prevention seems to be on teleport for 10 seconds seems strange, because if someone gets a stack, that means there is a TV that is powered near them. They have plenty of warning of this, and if they suspect this can easily pre-run to avoid the second stack...
I think these changes were made with the best intentions, but I have a feeling that competent survivors will dominate with these changes...
I couldn't play in the PTB, so I'll have to wait and see... but my theory craft doesn't have a lot of faith...
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I disagree personally. I've been playing Singularity more lately even on console, and I think the big problem with him is a lot of people try to use his pods to cover gens, where naturally they get disabled. I know this is what I did at first, and yeah, you get crapped on if you do this.
That isn't what they are for. His pods are to stick slipstream on to survivors, and once you have them slipstreamed you simply shoot your arm at them and constantly stick to them. The way I've been playing him is to stick pods up in places which can view locations of high traffic, places where survivors are likely to run, or places I can push them into. It's kinda like the opposite logic of using turrets against Xeno. You don't stick it on the gen, you stick it to cover where you think you'll need to run.
This is what makes him an A tier killer when played well. If your pod distribution is good, even if your pods get disabled, the chances are you're able to push them into another one, or throw up a pod on the fly and stick them regardless. Organised teams can grab EMPs and shut down your powerful pods ofc as you chase a survivor, but if they aren't above generators, you are slowing them down by proxy of them having to leave gens to deny your pods... which you can quickly delete and replace in less than 2 seconds without even having to drop chase.
He is a little map dependent, maps with large open areas (particularly if they're central), high walls and few LOS blockers are really good for him, such as Dead Dawg Saloon, Mount Ormand, RPD, even Garden Of Joy and Eyrie Of Crows are not awful maps for him.... however Midwich, Red Forest and the Swamp maps tend to be a pain.
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I was riding that new game high for quite a while last year, and was basically playing all hours outside of work most weeks.
Now I'd probably say 3 weekdays I'll usually play an average of maybe 5-8 games. On weekends I tend to play for some pretty heavy stints... maybe 20-30 games worth on at least 1 day of the weekend.
So per week I average somewhere between 40-50 games a week.
I'm really trying to get into the habit of stopping at 11pm or so though no matter what... which can be really hard to do after a particularly rough game 😅
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There are some hilariously poor and biased takes in this thread... but to answer the question seriously.
It's quite simple really. 4 players on survivor side means they can take the same perk 4 times. If you have a perk that is very strong and consistently causing problems for all/majority of killers in the roster whenever anyone takes it, the perks overpowered effects are amplified by a factor of 4. This means if survivors have a perk that almost everyone runs consistently, especially if it's an aggressive perk like Dead Hard or DS, it's effects have a very strong pronounced effect on the game.
Similarly there are 33 different killers in the game. If a single perk is being used by majority of the cast, regardless of skill level or playstyle, and consistently seeing higher win rates across the board regardless of killer or playstyle (like Eruption, CoB and Pop), these perks too needs to toned down.
Nerfs and buffs happen on both sides when they need to happen.
Also Yay for 1993.
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@kcwolf1975 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/059/2N58CGGYFDEE.jpg
Nordberg from the naked gun movies.
Ahahahaha, that's naughty man... for shame..... SHAAAAAAME! xD
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633977#Comment_3633977
And vice-versa, of course. Playing as survivor is extremely important if you want to improve as killer, because you'll have a better understanding of their perks, strategies and the multiple ways they can approach the game. Overall, DBD as an experience really shines when you play both sides, even if you play one of them slightly more than the other.
and that was me joining at the same point Skull Merchant came into the game... on reflection maybe I'm actually a closet psychopath and never realised it... xD
Oh trust me, I understand how that is. I joined around the time Legion first released.
P.S: I just saw that everyone was calling Rivers of Blood overpowered and I immediately decided I wanted that weapon. Although I changed it for the Hand of Malenia when I got it.
This is also a true statement, I suppose the biggest issue for new players now, is the sheer amount of content to learn. Like all the new map configurations, all the different killers powers, perk combos, add-ons... as well your own damn builds, and where to even start... I literally told a friend of mine "Just play Feng Min... she has 3 perks that are decent to get going with if you're new".
Oh trust me, I understand how that is. I joined around the time Legion first released.
I heard the legend of OG Legion... there are a few points in DBD history where whenever anyone says "Bring back old DBD", you have to wonder... are you remembering right? I think your brain may have blotted out parts of your memory to protect you? xD
P.S: I just saw that everyone was calling Rivers of Blood overpowered and I immediately decided I wanted that weapon. Although I changed it for the Hand of Malenia when I got it.
Malenia straight up my favourite boss in the entire Soulsborne series... and that's a harsh competition. As a dex/dodge build, it was the most fair and rewarding fight of the whole series of games. A lot of people hate her, and I understand why, but for my playstyle Malenia was the ultimate skill test that demanded true mastery of her moveset to win. Ice pots can get stuffed ^^
Although technically a bleed weapon, bleed is low on HoM... and legit is one of my favourite weapons in the game... I used to help people vs. Elden Beast and cosplay as her often ^^
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633895#Comment_3633895
Yeah killers can be frightful presence if you are new. I was also afraid of killers when I was new.
Btw, please don't scoff at magic. I loved using them in Soulsborne games.
I remember hating GhostFace when I started. The number of times he made me jump out of skin just by sticking his big face out next to me when I wasn't looking, only for me to pan the camera and see him at the exact moment as the stalk popped... made me nearly drop my controller and feel like a complete idiot a few times xD
It's all good, I'm just playing man, the true beauty of the Soulsborne game is every player plays their own game, and has a completely unique experience of what is hard/easy that is exclusive to them based on their decisions and their style of play. But as a long time dex build/dodge player (I learned Dark Souls without ever blocking... which is insane to me now...) I jest at having a crusader like fervour elevating dex builds above all others xD
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633895#Comment_3633895
Killers are actually scary when you're new, and you feel this constant sense of dread whenever you hear the TR.
I remember my very first match in Dead by Daylight: it was against a Huntress on the old version of Azarov's Resting Place, and I was terrified. Huntress is very scary when you are a new player, and the horror atmosphere was far better back then.
After some trials I went back to the Main Menu, listened to this banger:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdcp8xl5WPQ
And switched to killer, for my first trial as my beloved Old Freddy. From there it begins the process of learning everything that can be learned about the game and its mechanics.
Unfortunately the new player experience seems to be really bad these days, especially because of MMR. I wish everyone had a blast with their first trials, as I did back then.
PS: Why scoff at bleed builds in Elden Ring if instead you can use them?
I suppose it's fair to say there is the elephant in the room aye that learning killer powers/perks is extremely important for survivors, and doing that first handed as a killer is FAAAAAAR easier... your killer knowledge is invaluable when playing survivor... I've played with survivors mains who have like 3 years of experience on me, and half the time I call out a perk and they have no idea what I'm talking about xD
I mean, I myself rather enjoyed my new player life back in May last year... and that was me joining at the same point Skull Merchant came into the game... on reflection maybe I'm actually a closet psychopath and never realised it... xD
P.S. Bleed builds are filthy overpowered in ER. I made the fatal mistake of playing ER like I did in Dark Souls, and made a non-bleed dex build because I like those types of weapons... if you've ever made a non-bleed dex build in Elden Ring, well... you'll know why that's funny. 😅
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Build I have been enjoying a while now is:
- Made For This
- We're Gonna Live Forever
- We'll Make It/Botany Knowledge
- Borrowed Time/Off The Record
If you manage to proc We'll Make It, you can fully heal a slugged survivor in 5.33 seconds. Botany Knowledge is more consistent, and will get it down to 6.4 seconds.
Borrowed Time helps get your safe unhook, and makes your ally more likely to stay for your heals off hook, so if you're wounded you can get endurance and speed with MFT. If you find it too unreliable, OTR makes you more likely to get value when you're tunneled yourself.
It's kinda goofy, bit I have fun with it. The only issue I keep getting is my fellow solo survivors are super keen to go for saves instead of doing gens... even if they're on death hook or whatever... so a lot of the time trying to play so you get value can be a little bit of a throw... 😒
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DBD is like Counter Strike. It's an easy enough game to understand the idea and start playing... but the moment you go against other players, you're instantly met with a huge gulf in map knowledge, game awareness and skill.
If you're someone who likes to be really chill and not serious in games, and want to win without much effort (i.e. the Explorer Mode type players), the new survivor experience is awful. If you're someone who enjoys being challenged, and has a thirst for learning deep and complicated mechanics, the new player experience is great imo. Killers are actually scary when you're new, and you feel this constant sense of dread whenever you hear the TR.
Honestly I never minded being camped or tunneled when I started playing, because I was just swallowing the atmosphere, and to this day few things give me a rush as much as committing to opening a gate and praying the killer doesn't come back check before you can get the gate open.
I guess if you're a Soulsborne type player who scoffed at summons, coop, bleed builds, stagger builds, and all forms of busted magic attacks in Elden Ring, you'll probably be fine in DBD.
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Yeah I feel having luck affect item drops is a much more logical and intuitive effect. You can tie luck to affect perks like: -
- Plunder's Instinct
- Dramaturgy
- Appraisal
- Residual Mainfest
- Scavenger
- Pharmacy
This would make Up The Ante actually a decent perk for farming items for survivors (we just need a key, a map and a firecracker rummage perk and we've got the set!), and combined with Ace in Hole allow for a looter playstyle that has their intentions masked from the killer in the game lobby to avoid things like Lightborn, Franklin's Demise or overloading gen regression perks to counter toolboxes.
I feel like self unhooking should be better regulated myself, kept at 4% and not messed with except for very specific scenarios. Slippery Meat should be reworked to have some other effect, maybe one of: -
- Expend 1 hook stage to increase the chance of self unhooking to 100%. (if you're hooked once already, you die)
- Increases the AFC range by 8m.
- Self unhook attempts consume 50% less (10 seconds) sacrifice progress per attempt, and pauses the sacrifice progress timer for 8 seconds. Enables self unhook attempts during the struggle phase. (If you attempt to unhook every 8s, your teammates get up to 40s to save you, but you get 6 unhook attempts in the process, which is a 21.8% chance to unhook per stage).
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Balance and fun are not intrinsically linked. A game can be both balanced and fun; it can also be unbalanced and boring. One does not hinge on the other.
Broken things can be a lot of fun, but almost always only for the player using what is broken, and ONLY for people who are so inclined.
For people like myself, getting smashed by broken mechanics and being forced to take the opposing broken mechanics isn't fun either. It's especially not fun for me to take broken things and smash a player who is not using broken things. Any sense of achievement or accomplishment is none existent, because you're being carried by your broken ability rather than it being any growth or skill on your part.
An extreme example of this logic not working is, I have an FPS game that has a very rare chance of loot dropping a 1 time use nuclear warhead. That player can trigger it any time they like and instantly perma-kill everyone, resulting in a win for their team. Broken as hell, completely unbalanced, not fun for anyone on the opposing team (nor likely anyone on the same team), except maybe the user, who gets to laugh at the entire enemy team after they got a 5 round lead, only for the game to be ended immediately and their work robbed off them.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not take Commodius Toolboxes with max charge add-ons, or Dead Hard and Decisive Strike, or flashlights with instablind add-ons just to have a chance of escape, or have to take Cob/Pop/Eruption or learn 6 blink Nurse just to have a game where survivors aren't out in less than 4 minutes every single time.
If a broken thing is fun, consider what makes it fun and introduce it into the game in an appropriately balanced fashion, but having broken stuff in a game just makes the game extremely annoying for whoever is on the receiving end.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633793#Comment_3633793
There would still be the issue of model-height and in-game height difference.
iirc Hag is average despite being small in-game and having the lowest PoV because she is crouched/bent and her actual model is bigger..
this does make the info of the killers height in their description very questionable though as it is kinda misleading..
Suppose that is good a question to ask as any.
What exactly does 'height' refer to in this context? The characters actual height? Or their in game height?
To my mind this listing for each character is detailing gameplay related info (movement speed and terror radius). In game height is more useful to know as a gameplay mechanic here. If for example Xeno could only ever be in crawler mode, the height should be "short", as that is the height profile you woukd expect to be playing around in game.
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@Heliosse said:
It's fine, the pickrate is very decent for the number of killers we have, this killer will be like Pyramid head. Good killer but a bit cluncky so not for everyone, also kinda like singularity, you have to be really into the game to play well, you have a lot of stuff to keep track of and the turrets also annoys a lot of players.
It seems easy to play but it's really not, the tail is hard to hit and really punishing to miss. Keep in mind Alien has the sortest range AND the longest CD, even bigger than Deathslinger, it is to balance the fact that you are within lunge distance when you hit but it create a bad feeling when playing. You feel heavy and limited, no mobility, no crazy shots.
The network has a lot of depth to it, you can even use it in chase with a good rng and the management of turrets can be hard if they are placed well. So i think it's too annoyingly difficult and frustrating to play for most (ive seen a lot of frustration from people missing tails by an inch or having tunnels in map corners. It has no free mobility so it's a W fest with the turrets "slowing" you down and beeping to alert them.
It suffered from bugs at release that really killed the hype (because everyone was happy about the ptb), a gigantic hype caused by anticipation (people also expected something else in term of power, everyone had their ideas) and it has one of the most disliked mechanic in the game: short ranged attack.
Also, when people says they are going to play it, or they wanted it for years does not mean they will actually do it. At the end of the day the only thing that count in dbd is gameplay, the license is a plus but not a deciding factor for the vast majority of gamers.
Most of the "well designed" killers are dash killers: Billy, Oni, Blight, Wesker, even very original and amazing concept like Singularity just gets forgotten. That's why Chucky did better (and not even by much i think), it has a dash, forgiving misses, really easy to pick up and strong with depths to master. The only dash killer that is really punishing is, very surprisingly never played (hello Billy). Billy has the same CD as Xenomorph (3s when bumping), next patch, Billy will be much more forgiving with better collision and less CD, and boom, massive success, it's that simple really.
This killer is going to be niche and that's prefectly fine. Alien probably selled very well so i think it was a massive success in that aspect at least (queens everywhere on release so that's alot of money).
I don't think it was a fail by any means, but not the dream chapter everyone created in their minds. Nemesis is by far the most forgiving of the short ranged killer with a passive power on top of it, it does not have the clunck of PH nor the turrets + clunck of Alien, that's probably why people gravitate more towards him, when Nemesis released, it was the same deal: boring power, can we rework him and blah blah blah, nowadays he is fine so it's going to be the same for Alien. (PH release also created a war in the community).
Nemesis can miss but succeed and Xenomirph cannot as much, to drag with Alien, the tail must no collide with anything or you'll enter CD, so when used in loops, you really can't drag that much like Nemesis does, tou can scan a pallet to get the hit, but you can't hit the wall then drag to hit the surv like Nemesis does all day along. If Nemesis had no drag, his pick rate would suffer A LOT, right now, he suffers mobility issue but is really forgiving, not easy but easier than his two brothers.
Alien "failed" by not being the next Wesker, but you can see that Behaviour did a lot with it, complex power, they designed the turrets (first of their kind), the network (first of it's kind, works on EVERY map, insane concept), the Xenomorph itself is the most complex model with two walk cycle, no "walking straight" in stairs, it has proper animations, the map has easter eggs, with an amazing sky box, Ripley has Jonesy and voice lines. Like clearly they did not hold back with the chapter.
I choose my characters because i love them, i would have been an Alien main no matter what, even if it was trash, but i do trully think the design is not bad at all, it's even great, more undetectable would have been amazing.
Slap a dash attack with undetectable like Chucky (forgiving) to replace the tail and boom, great design for the community. (But we can't have dash killers only, we need Singularity or Dredge to bring something cool, and i think Alien hit the spot).
And you never hear anyone saying that Blight and Wesker are the same because they dash around (that's normal, because they are different) but Xenomorph is like Nemesis or Demogorgon ?? Not at all, i don't know why people do this, but this is just untrue and kinda cheap. You could say you play around Nemesis the same as Alien, yeah maybe, and even then, i disagree, but it's the same for Wesker and Blight, you have to use LoS blocker and specific jukez but you also get zoned or hitted without being able to do anuthing except "hope they miss".
i think they did very well, but like i said, it is not for everyone, at the end of the day, gameplay rules, the rest is just decorations.
Final note: I LOVE Alien, thank you Behaviour for this !
Saved my time, as I was pretty much gonna write the same. Nice job.
I'm not sure why there is a sudden wave of Xeno hate. Has some content creator I've not seen said something somewhere?
Anyone comparing Xeno to Nemesis does not understand how the 2 hitboxes work. Nemesis whip hitboxes start from the top and shoot out 1 after another as a series of lines parallel to the ground from Nemesis. Each hitbox stops when it hits terrain, but if any of them make it past to the survivor it's a hit. This is why Nemesis can drag along the ground and you get whips that seem a mile off still hit you. Nemesis whip comes from Nemesis' position in the world, turning the camera does not change the orientation of his whip in flight, so once you send it, you have strafe to catch juking survivors.
I'm less sure of Xeno's hitbox, but to my knowledge Xeno on the other hand is like a downward spike, a single hitbox that shoots in a line from above Xeno's head at a downward angle to maych the players low profile and relative aim. This gets a little weird when trying to stab up above you. If it hits terrain it immediately stops. Unlike Nemesis Xeno can turn the camera to maneuver the hitbox while the tail is in flight, allowing for flicks with the tail, and although it can be dragged, there is little need or desire to do so due to the ability to turn. The two abilities are similar, but function very differently.
The prevelance of speedy killers being the only thing anyone ever wants is so boring to me. It's almost like if it isn't some jacked up sprint that can turn around corners and score mad hits like Chucky, Blight, Wesker people just rag on it. These are just as much anti loop as any other ability, but other methods of achieving the same are just the wrong way to do it apparently. Like I hate a Clown bottle as much as the next guy, but at least it's different.
Xenos anti loop is pretty much the same in terms of gameplay as Huntress, just Xeno is faster. Why anyone brings Demogorgon into the conversation I don't know. Their map traversal is kinda similar... but Xeno I'd argue is closer to Freddy or Sadako than Demo, and unlike the 3 of them has no cooldown and can't be disabled. The comparison is kinda baffling to me. Xeno is certainly unique enough in its own right, and a good killer.
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Thoroughly enjoyed the read, I believe @C3Tooth is on to it though. My theory is that the camera is set on the killer at a location that feels right to play for that killer, with consideration of their actual height being secondary. The conclusion is flawed if the camera is not consistently placed in the same place on each killer.
E.g. Ghost Face has to crouch with his power, and still be able to stalk without things blocking him often, so I imagine his camera is set higher to reduce your stalk getting blocked by grass, etc.
What you need is a similarly impassioned soul to join you and snap the heights from the survivor perspective. It would be really interesting to see how far off the camera is relative to the actual height for each killer... Then the evidence can be truly irrefutable... 😁
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- Turrets are fine if you place they smart. You don't necessarily need them to break out crawler mode, you just need them to force the killer to look away from you as you run.
- Juking the tail is a lot of fun, and has created some really intense and fun chases for me, with some great mind games at pallets.
- Quite different from Nemesis whip, the whip creates a series of lines from Nemesis that individual get halted by terrain, but as long as one of the hitboxes gets past the terrain to the survivor it'll hit. This means it can be dragged much easier to cover a larger area. The tail has a single hitbox that stops when it hits terrain, making dragging much less effective, but it also is more precise to slot over terrain, and has nowhere near the same wind up time.
- Diving through tunnels and sensing survivor footsteps feels fast paced and exciting. Turrets cause you problems they should, and can be a pain if placed well.
- Xenomorph was quite well recieved upon release, killers were happy to have a strong killer to play, and despite a few breaking bugs, the character was balanced pretty well.
- Ellen looks reasonably like the character, it's obviously not Sigourney's likeness, but no difference in looks compared to Laurie Strode or Detective Tapp. They're close enough to know who they are. Voice lines are very good, and we even got Jonesy the cat.
- Perks are interesting, Light Footed can really make you hard to track, especially if you're trying for flashlight saves. Lucky Star is a little odd, not sure why blood trails stop for 10s, but the perk gives decent amounts of info, and certainly isn't unusable. Chemical Trap is tricky to use, but can turn a strong pallet into a God pallet killer doesn't want to break.
- Nostromo has some great easter eggs, looks amazing and fits the theme perfectly. I've found success both looping as the survivor and mind gaming as the killer. Not my favourite map to play, but it isn't god awful.
I kinda disagree on every single point here... so agree to disagree I guess? Not quite so sure what this kinda over the top rant post was in aid of tbh.
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@Pluto_1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632973#Comment_3632973
As if blinding a killer isn't a hard counter. Do you even hear yourself or do you just love blinding that much?
... a hard counter in the same way as a head shot is a hard counter in counter strike?
Such a bizarre attack my man xD
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632709#Comment_3632709
Not to rain on the parade, but doesn't removing collision create all kinds of problems? Survivors clipping inside one another makes it impossible to control who gets hit, tunneling or not.
Yes that's the point. Having collision not only allows freshly unhooked survivors to be tunneled straight off the hook and bypass any other endurance effect, but it also allows the killer to bodyblock them, or for them to body block the killer. Depending on the intent and context, these are both problems.
The survivor loses the opportunity to escape and avoid getting tunneled out immediately, meanwhile non-tunnelling killer loses the opportunity to not tunnel and go for the unhooker. In both cases there is no benefit for the unhooked survivor to tank the hit for their unhooker, either the survivor is being cheated out of their anti-tunnel mechanism, or the killer is being cheated out of the ability to play fair, forcing them to tunnel. There should not be 'control' over who gets hit, in all cases it should be the unhooker who gets hit.
Survivors already lose collision in some circumstances. When a survivor is injured, they lose collision for a few seconds so the killer cant block a survivor in a dead end and score a double hit entirely free. Meanwhile some killers lose collision as part of their power.
A survivor losing collision after an unhook wouldn't be too different to a survivor losing collision after being hit. It's a brief window where the survivor is the most vulnerable and can use the lack of collision to avoid unfair blocking when they have no control over their circumstances.
Instead of 10 seconds of endurance, I'd prefer 6 seconds of no-collision. With BT being changed to 9 seconds of endurance after regaining collision so it still protects for 15 seconds.
There might be a conflict between losing collision and other survivors being able to heal them, so potentially the survivor taking any action (heal, sabo, etc.) or being subjected to an action (healed by another survivor) ends the period of non-collision.
Losing collision is a far better solution than 'stacking endurance', which would allow survivors to abuse it by scoring multiple free hits along with free speed boosts. That's not possible with non-collision as no hit = no speed boost, but also no attack cooldown on the killer side.
You know what fair point. Well argued, I don't really object ro anything here.
I'm not convinced it's enough of a problem myself to warrant changes, as personally I've very rarely come across scenarios where it was body blocking specifically that got me as survivor/helped me as Killer, instead of just being the result of tunneling in general... if anyone got body blocked successfully, chances the survivor wasn't making safety anyway.
Longer BT endurance actually addresses that.
Other than that... I have no reason to refute any of your logic here tbh. 😏
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@GeneralV said:
Lightborn is fine as it is.
In fairness it is one of those weird ones.
From a game design perspective, Lightborn is what is known as a 'hard counter', and it's never good to have a hard counters, because it removes options and dumbs down a game. In a ideal world, what would be better is if Lightborn made flashlights a greater risk to use and offering some skilled counterplay...
However in the same breathe... you are absolutely right, Lightborn specifically on the context of DBD is fine, and not a problem... and this is by virtue of the fact flashlights are not strong. It'd be better to rework Lightborn, but because flashlights aren't good, there isn't really anything you could change it to that would make it worth running....
This means right now, we have a bit of a throw perk. All veterans will tell you you don't need it, you shouldn't rely on it, and it actually hurts you in the long run by forcing survivors with flashlights to not bother, meaning they spend more time on gens... but for the one thing it does, its really good against that one thing.
So yes, the OP is right... it's a poorly designed perk... but its also fine... in a weird way. 😅
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@Heliosse said:
Waited so long for this chapter and unlike most of you (on theses forums at least since there is a tiny fraction of the community here and it's almost always the same persons anyway) , i was not disapointed at all.
For what dbd is capable to offer, it's awesome, saying it is generic is untrue, it is not an opinion it's a fact. First quadrupedal killer ever with proper animations for once and no gliding everywhere (sound design and model are beyond amazing but that is not unique).
Power wise, the network system is trully unique, no powers in the game comes even close to being similar. It is a submap that works on every map in the game with footsteps detection and generators noises audible. It is a perfect power idea for this killer and works really well in the game, my only grip is, i would have liked more undetectability around it. Maybe a lingering effect or an AoE that makes the Alien stealthy (8-12m maybe with a bursr of speed when leaving a tunnel like Sadako with the Tv's).
The tail strike is a great idea that sadly is a power type that is generally disliked by people. Players feels like they have no agency facing the Xeno while most players don't like playing with it because it's to punishing to miss and hard to aim (it's ironic, like Pyramid head, people says it's no brain easy anti loop, but no one plays him because it's actually pretty hard and punishing, most Xeno or PH zone because the power is far tobrisky to use, and it's inherent to the design, it has a big punishment because you are close to the survivor). This power works well in the power fantasy of the killer, no biggie on that, it works well in game, it is nowhere near Nemesis or other ranged killers for the matter. I could break it down further but the comparison is so "Xeno fully fledged tunnels that allows it to move around and listen to survivors are the same as Demo point and click TP" that it's not even worth to further describe.
The flame turrets are another thing completly unique, they are really strong, Xeno is a killer that can be really bullied by turrets and pre running but it's mostly seen in comp or really high level (wich is not me, not 90% of you and very few people overall). But still the amount of people that still place turrets in front of stations or next to gens is baffling, if you want to slow it down, put one "behind" is pathing, you path from the gen to a loop, you put the turret behing a tree or rock that flames the loop bit not the gen, this will force the Xeno to turn around and lose sight and time or get burn. If you really want to burn him with NO counterplay, put two turrets next to eachother in an open area, job's done. Pre run the killer when the turrets are beepinf if you want to play it mega safe. Xeno must not be taken head on 1v1 like an m1 killer it's a killer you must anticipate, ambush and play around.
All in one we have a power that respect the fantasy around it (stalker in vent that has a very threatening presence but can be countered by fire or good preparations, wish it had more stealth tho).
Most ideas around the Alien power are really cool on paper, but:
- Wall crawling is stupid, cool, but stupid, it counters everything in the game, and the only way to make it work is to make it super limited or cluncky, kinda like nurse, so not ideal.
- Facehuggers would have been like Pig or Nemesis in the sense that it's something that you kinda put there but it's mostly passive. Kinda like the wall crawl, this would have been so nerfed and watered down it would have been pathetic. I agree that it would have been cool to see them in action but how the heck do you put them in ? I think they do not work and putting them in will cost to much in the power budget, you as the Xeno would have less to compensate and that's not cool.
As for it's pick rate, it is perfectly fine to have a killer that is not played by everyone everytime. Except Wesker, there is no licensed killer that is everywhere. Wesker is easy to use and hard to master with techs/exploits to research that enhance his skill ceiling. Xeno is like Pyramid head, a well done killer that just isn't for most. Keep in mind, that the more times pass, the less chance you have to encounter the killer you love (because there is more killers in the pool).
On Nightlight, the Alien is the 15th most played killer with 3% pick rate. Nightlight is not the official stats by any means but it is still something to look at, with the number of killers we have, 3% is not bad at all. You could say "Yeah but people have been waiting so long, and you never see it and im disapointed, because it's not what i wanted, it's so boring" and the rest. But it's a you problem. Maybe that hype killed it in the egg, maybe it's the strong traumatism of launch (since EVERYONE cheered and sayed the ptb was more than fine) or maybe it is the mere presence of a short ranged antiloop but in the end, it does not warrant a Sadako/Freddy solution and it would be sad to see this killer get demolished.
I think the devs should stop adding chapters for the game for some times and take a year to work on the game itself. With their disastrous coding from the dbd start, i understand that it must be hard to implement things, they are most likely fighting the code to not explode at any new things. But they should do a R6 move with a gigantic game health year. Addressing tunnel/camp, game objectives, new game mode, scarier things like ambiance. Most people in dbd are not horror fans or even knowers of the genra. So im not surprised by the complete lack of care by most for horror feature. And we adapt to not fear something after a while so it would be a challenge to even partialy succed in that regard. But still, maps are too open, i must be the only one that likes the indoors map, but there is a reason why the only killers that are scary are played in indoor maps, outdoors would be fine of they had fogs (real fogs not this purple add on watered down black vape).
Currently dbd is a competitve 1v4 game that is played in a 1v1 way, you can see the killer from across the globe, you can hear the killer from across the globe, and the most efficient ways to play is also the most boring and uninteresting part. Xeno is not the only one getting burned out and they should really take some time to work on the game itself.
Great wall of text i know, but i think it's better to actually explain an opinion instead of saying "I think Alien is one of the best chapter in this game next to Silent hill, i waited for it since i started to play back in 2018, i am not disapointed at all because i had realistic expectations and i am so happy that it is even here to begin with. If you don't encounter Xenomorph and you would like, maybe we'll meet one day because i have been playing only this killer since it launched (which means not 4 hours at all), i play a stealth build to compensate for the only disapointing thing in this killer wich is lack of stealth imo".
Here was the short answer, great day to all.
Was similary suprised by this thread. Generally the reception of Xeno was pretty good at the time. Since Xeno got launched, Wesker has taken quite a big dip in regularity of play for quite an extended period of time... so I'm not convinced myself.
What killed Xenos momentum was 2 pretty bad bugs back to back: -
- No slowdown applied on tail miss, making it impossible to loop, and extremely frustrating for survivors.
- Once that was fixed the hitbox on the tail got really badly screwed up and was catching on terrain in scenarios that made no sense.
Xeno flip-flopped from being one of the most most broken killers, to being barely usable. It's now in a decent place far as I can tell, and has maintained an above average pick rate.
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Not to rain on the parade, but doesn't removing collision create all kinds of problems? Survivors clipping inside one another makes it impossible to control who gets hit, tunneling or not.
What happens when the collisions come back and you're inside one another? Usually bodies are forced apart, and this can have all kinds of weird effects like getting sprung in the air, getting pushed into invalid terrain and getting stuck, maybe even dropping out of the map.
Removing collision seems like a bad solution to me with a lot of potential for weird unintended side effects.
My personal feeling on the MoM idea is its kinda a non issue. If the killer wants to tunnel you, a smart killer will wait out the timer and hit you when it's gone. This is the far more sensible thing to do, so what a killer will do most of the time is hit the survivor unhooking as they unhook for pressure, then follow you off hook and wait out BT. The MoM suggestion and the body blocking suggestion will very rarely do anything to prevent this happening... but what it will do is prevent a killer who has realised you have OTR or DH, who now immediately hits you to counter your perk. It doesn't make sense to me to punish a killer for having good sense to counter your perks.
The point of DH and OTR is to give the survivor more time to make a resource. If you get to a pallet/window and they hit you before BT is gone, you already made a loop, so the value has already been acquired, wounded or not. If the killer instant hits you, you have the boost to run to a resource with, again, value acquired.
If you want to stop camping and tunneling, the game needs a far greater change to make not doing it preferable.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632042#Comment_3632042
"Deactivates if entering a locker to prevent forced grabs instead of downs."
Just because a survivor jumps in a locker doesn't mean they're not being tunnelled. Using slugging as a workaround is justifiable if the survivor is bodyblocking, but if they're in a locker, they aren't bodyblocking.
There's no reason to disable it when the survivor enters a locker.
OK so you've responded to one part of my post, without actually addressing the major point I was making, so I'll make it clearer.
You are correct, you can still be tunneled, but you are only considering the tunnel scenario. The issue that I'm highlighting with DS is a survivor can still make themselves a pain by body blocking, lingering for flashlight/pallet saves and taking hits for their teammates, especially when combined with things like OTR or DH. This will usually happen to defend the person that has just made the unhook.
As much as you try to limit DS, there is always the risk of it being used as an invincibility shield to limit and bait the killer. If as killer you are forced to attack them to get them out of the way, your actual target can make a lot of distance from you. Your counter to this if you suspect DS, you down them and leave them slugged, you ensure that person cannot contribute to gens and forces a teammate to come pick them up, which you can play around to intercept or just buy time. This gives you some pressure for the cost of now having to catch up to your previous target... if you even can in a timely manner. Of course when combining DS with OTR and DH it can end up costing you even more time, as now you don't even have the DS survivor slugged either.
So if you then try to make the best of a bad situation and slug them, they can instead hop in a locker and now you've lost your target AND wasted even more time chasing this survivor. You are now in a situation where you can't even grab them out of a locker for fear of DS, and you have to count out the timer and cost yourself even more time... and all of this could well be a bait... they might not even have DS.
So that's why I say lockers should disable it. If you have other mechanisms to prevent the weaponising of DS that prevent the above scenario then great. This locker point is on the table, but I'm not wrong by highlighting this as a scenario.
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Judith Myers Tombstone Iri should stay for a few reasons: -
- JMT is surprisingly balanced, and the fear/suspicion of it can mind game survivors to run much sooner from gens in of itself.
- It's obviously a requirement for the Evil Incarnate achievement/trophy, which several people have sunk a lot of time into getting.
- The instant execute is a unique trait of Myers, who is the most lore accurate and roleplay perfect adaption of any DBD killer, and that's not a trivial thing.
- It's one of the few things that actually forces survivors into lockers for grabs, which is a requirement for certain challenges.
Tombstone Piece on the other hand, yes this should die... he'd need a slew of buffs to compensate, but TP as it is is just broken.
I think Myers should have a basekit Stalk pool replenish on survivors that recharges at a rate of 0.5 charges per minute (maximum pool is 10 per survivor, and it takes 5 stalk to pop each EW level). I would then have Tombstone Piece trebel that recharge or something so Myers can stalk much more freely. That's 1 of Myers issues fixed.
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Used to think this was easy, but it's really not because you have to strike a balance between being good at anti-tunnelimg, but not also being good at body blocking.
Things that should be added/are needed: -
- Uniform 80s timer to be like OTR.
- Deactivates if entering a locker to prevent forced grabs instead of downs.
- 4 second stun to account for 1.3s drop time.
- 8 second power block to affect chase killers equally to m1 killers.
Things that shouldn't be added: -
- End game deactivation, otherwise it is impossible for the killer to prevent an escape.
Considerations/problems that still need solving: -
- Some mechanism to deactivate when the killer has put enough chase time into/hooked other survivors to prevent body blocking/aggressive use of DS. How should this interact when slugged? Not counting when slugged allows body blocking still, whereas counting allows slugging off hook and simply chasing long enough/hooking to bypass DS.
- Deactivate when taking a Protection Hit? How to prevent deactivation from hook exchange?
- Multiple activations, can only occur if the above issues are sorted. The fact all 4 survivors can take DS means all attempts to weaponise it must be killed at all costs.
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There is a report option for that for helping the opposing team.
If you managed to snatch a recording, send it a report.
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Unfortunately this is an inevitable outcome of live service games. The PS4 is coming towards end-of-life, where majority of titles will soon no longer be released for it, so you're gonna have to think about upgrading at some point.
Your PS4 being hard wired into the router is an odd problem to have... I don't mean to pry... but how on earth did that happen? 🤔
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I feel this is pretty solid advice...
10 seconds · Clipped by undeddjester · Original video "Meet the Spy" by JoeysLucky22For killers 😏
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I swear man, the more I learn about this game the more I enjoy it.
It's annoying sometimes, but if you just check your ego and expectations at the door, accept you aren't the best and will lose and lose badly from time to time... if you do your best and treat every loss as a "it was bound to happen at some point" and just move on... you can really have a lot of fun and have very little actually get to you.
DBD feels like an unreachable skill ceiling... like chess. I'm not even mad if I get rolled by a Nurse, or glashlight saved 3 times by the same player who then loops me for 3 gens.... just means I've still got a loooong way to go before I'm truly bored of this game...
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Personally I'm against this.
I enjoy experimenting and creating builds in DBD, and I also like doing the challenges. There have been several times when trying to do a specific challenge that there has been that one weird perk that has actually been the one I needed to complete the challenge.
Having weaker perks in the game doesn't cause a problem, so removing them doesnt gain anything, and keeping them allows for creativity with your builds.
That being said, I would like some perks to be buffed to be actually useful, E.g. Quick Gambit, Poised, Predator, Beast of Prey... Not every perk has to be meta strength, but it should at least be usable.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
I turned the game off after the match because it bothered me so much.
I have gone against friends playing together to win, which is challenging, but this was just no fun at all.
All Survivors used Boil Over, Breakout, Unbreakable and each had one other perk like Circle of Healing.
30 minutes into the game and not a single generator is completed. All they wanted to do was have me chase them, then deny me the hook.
I was able to kill one because he stepped in my trap by the basement.
After that, I just went and stood at the exit gate so they finally did the generators after I had maxed out my Hunting, Deviousness and Brutality categories. The match lasted approximately 45 minutes.
How do you deal with this?
It's one thing to be doing the generators but they ignored them for a half hour to taunt me.
Welcome! You're officially inducted as a DBD killer now! 😁
It is very frustrating, as @LapisInfernalis and @mikewelk said, all you can really do is slug, defend the slug, and keep slugging until they're all bled out and dead.
A nice little trick on Trapper is if you want to bait out people hiding nearby, down the target and then start to place a trap on top of the survivor and cancel. It looks like you're picking them up, which might make it easier for you to spot and slug others nearby.
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@tjt85 said:
Thank you for your contributions so far.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/F5RSUR8EUCEF/legionlore.jpg
I came up with another build the other day for The Legion (my Killer main) that I thought would be neat to share.
The build is Dark Devotion + Friends 'Til The End + Batteries Included + Fire Up. Add-ons are each member's own personal mixtape and the BFFs necklace.
Dark Devotion & Friends 'Til The End represent the twisted friendship and cult like dynamics of the gang. They have pretty good synergy, with FTTE able to switch up your obsession throughout the game. DD also makes you stealthy, so you can sneak up on unwary survivors (just like the way Frank snuck up on poor David in their teaser trailer). Darkness Among Us indeed!
Fire Up, BFFs necklace & Batteries included represent their escalating vandalism, youthful energy and emphasis on speed. Here's the result of a game I played with this build.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/U4IBMJT8QEIU/legionlore2.jpg
A 3K!
Was a fun game and I got value from all of my perks and add-ons, so not bad at all for a build with no gen regression or slowdown. Obviously, this wasn't a sweaty lobby and I'm not at high MMR, so your results may vary. But they played well (especially the Meg), were able to get the gates powered and might have won if not for 3 genning themselves. It was basically a 3 Vs 1, as the other Nea disappeared as soon as she was on death hook and didn't do much else for the rest of the trial.
Ahahaha, the reasoning for Batteries Included actually made me laugh. Well done ^^
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SpookyLoopz made a video just today discussing things such as this. The whole video is worth a watch, but here is the timestamp that really gets into it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHkthkwyuZE&t=370s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHkthkwyuZE&t=825s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHkthkwyuZE&t=1280s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHkthkwyuZE&t=1740s
The thing is competative DBD is a very different game to normal DBD. In normal DBD each survivor is primarily trying to save themselves, in comp DBD, it is purely about hook stages.
I made a big post about it the other day, but DBD is not a true 4vs1, it is 4 players trying to survive against 1 killer. There are perks that work in standard DBD that do not work in competative DBD, and vice versa, and a lot of things about DBD would need a lot of changes to facilitate a lot of the things in comp... e.g.
- Decisive Strike for example is considered pretty bad by most people, but in competative is still one of the best perks in the game.
- Adrenaline is considered pretty balanced in standard DBD, but in comp DBD would be completely broken and is banned.
- The AFC is banned in comp, because the game isn't about an individual survivor surviving, it is about hook stages.
- Voice comms would be required as standard, but the whole game would need rebalancing because of how much of a strength comms are.
However as you can see in SpookyLoopz video, 1 action by survivors being less optimal can snowball out of control and cause a huge swing of pressure. It's kinda unrealistic to expect this level of coordination of SoloQ, even with voice comms. Limiting SoloQ players on their perks like competative players would need to be tempered by voice comms, but I'm not sure that is where I would want the default game expereince to go.
This would breed a culture similar to that of world of warcraft where if you're not playing seriously or haven't "read the guide on how to beat this dungeon" then you will be the recipient of a lot of toxicity.
EDIT: This idea might be a decent idea for SWFs, I certainly wouldn't mind this change when I'm in a SWF... but you'll get the same old "punishing players for playing with friends would kill the game" argument. I think thats a reasonable trade off myself. You get voice comms and the chance to coordinate your builds, in exchange for not being able to take the same perks. Gives SWF a little more of a competative flair.
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Yeah, sounds like a possible oversight, I'd raise a support ticket.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
Coup de Grace on Ghostface.
Really helps down the exposed survivor faster and you only need to use one stack! And it makes chasing non-exposed survivors more manageable so even if you are struggling to get marks it still gives a lot of value!
I used that on Myers, I haven't tried yet on GhostFace! I'll give that a look! 😁🤘
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When I started playing him, I didn't actually realise he could scamper under pallets when not charging with slice and dice... and I still did well with him. As such I find it hard to say how good he is overall.
Pre-running does buy a fair amount of time on him, and I recently learned you only see his scamper footprints when you would normally be able to see the killer if he was normal height... which explains why I kept just thinking I was awful at tracking his footsteps.... now I know about it I can pay more attention to it.
I find him tough to mind game, but I don't do awfully against Chucky, especially if I can juke his slice and dice. If you do manage to trick him, you can make loads of distance. Since his turn arc got nerfed and he can't flick around terrain... I'm not convinced he's OP anymore, but he's still undeniably strong.
Killers want the flicks back, Survivors want nerfs because he's hard to handle at loops... so I struggle to feel he's not far of being exactly where he should be.
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@Seraphor said:
I still encounter it fairly regularly as killer, and I don't expect it, so it works.
Ditto, every time I eat a Dead Hard, I lambast myself for being too lazy to check it... only to forget and get caught again a few games later xD
Definitely not a useless perk.
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@Shroompy said:
Trapper, Whispers.
Its always been a very good perk, and is probably the biggest victim of power creep. Best way to play Trapper is to have a "territory". Some times you need to step out of it to go grab a trap and Whispers allows you to know when you have time to do so. It can also let you know when its not the best time to set a trap since youll know someones nearby and can possibly see you setting that trap.
... that's really clever.
A lot of things I've tried before and/or know about (still fun to read people's answers)... but this one was genuinely new... I've never tried that... smart 😅
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If you are seeing this regularly, have you considered using:
- Reassurance?
- Borrowed Time?
- Off The Record?
- Camaradarie?
- Desperate Measures with Overcome/Dead Hard?
- Kindred and Open Handed?
- Deliverance?
It soudns like you'd get a lot of value from any of them.
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@Raconteurminator said:
While I do genuinely get where you're coming from, I think a lot of your position is built upon the assumption that anything Behaviour does is intentional or well considered, rather than them chaotically laying the tracks for a train already in motion. I genuinely believe that Dead By Daylight was never intended to last anywhere near this long, a coherent design strategy has never really been a thing, and that inferring a deeper meaning to the game mechanics isn't as close to reliable as it would be for any other game.
The point system, for example, might be designed to push you towards a certain style of play, might hint towards a wider objective. It is also equally possible that someone may have sketched the basic premise for it on a napkin at lunchtime and then gave it no further thought in the proceeding years.
The Key Features line, "Survive Together.. Or Not," I am going to guess, has been in the description from day one. As far as I understand it, not even looping was an intended thing back then. It was about hiding more, interacting with each other outside of gens less. As the game has moved on, teamwork has become almost completely mandated and more selfish play-styles are generally awarded with a team wipe. The game has evolved far beyond its original premise, whether Behaviour cares to acknowledge that or not.
Hehehehe, this is a fair point. I think you're dead right, the game has evolved primarily to fit the market, and the life cycle and history of DBD development is a rather checkered past to say the least... :D
It's changed a lot from it's original concept, however BHVR have also been known to quite stubborn at times... despite the games success and then having a huge wave of voices shouting back at them, they've held fast on some things that didn't make a lot of sense to hold fast on... and I think that the above principle has always been lingering in the background... I think it's a tenet of the game that has continued to play quite a role in BHVR's decision making.
For example, that AMA comment about survivors being lone wolves was extremely poorly received, and that is because everyone (including me) looks at this game as 4 survivors vs. 1 killer... ofc we don't work together as well, because we don't have comparable information, and if we did, we would. As a result, that comment is baffling and frustrating... but when you reframe it with this game being 4 survivors each trying to survive vs. 1 killer... it now isn't such an unreasonable thing to say.
The medkit, self care and CoH healing nerfs seems to push more towards a team dynamic, as healing yourself is harder to do, so that has evidence for a more team dynamic, which contradicts my point. However if you have strong self healing, it makes working together as a team easier as well... you can heal yourself while your teammates work together on gens. This in turn means there is no requirement or opportunity to play selfishly or betray anyone if everyone can easily care for themselves while working as a team. A lot of survivors got really upset with these changes and spouted "catering to killers", the 60% kill rate for killers also wasn't received too well in the same vein... however if you frame those things with this betrayal idea in mind... these changes again do make a little more sense.
Now ofc, we are the customers, and if enough of us pull in one direction, BHVR would be foolish not to react to it.... but I am starting to think as I look through changes BHVR makes, this might well be one of the core tenets of their design philosophy...
Though there is ofc the possibility I'm seeing patterns where there are none, and it's all tinfoil hat stuff... but I've had fun thinking about it 😁
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629470#Comment_3629470
Regardless, I've seen players in SoloQ where I genuinely didn't understand how the hell they made such a bad mistake that screwed me up so badly... but with this new way of thinking... it's possible it was entirely deliberate. Just today I was left to die on hook totally uncontested against Twins... with 3 gens to go and 1 player dead. This seems like hanging me out to dry, which it is, but when you look at it as that was likely that players best option to remain undetected and get out alive, and acknowledging the pragmatism removes the annoyance.
you were left to die on hook because you did not have kindred. the team disorganized enough to send no players to unhook you. If a killer has camping tendencies then a survivor team might purposely leave you on hook till end of second stage. the other possibilities is your mmr being low enough that there is skill issue with saving other survivors. Some of it could be derived from killer pressuring entire team such as 1 person slugged, 2 people being chased and 1 person doing a gen at far end of the map.
As for your analogy, i do not see link in analogy towards dbd game. The dev somewhat made sure that playing selfish is as unrewarding as possible because leaving your teammates to die makes it difficult to escape. Funny enough, you can make builds such as Wake up+Sole survivor+Left behind with a key to increase escape chances in end game however i doubt this is how the majority of survivor players initially play the game.
I guarantee... the instances I'm talking about were not because of a lack of information 😁
It's not that unrewarding. 2500 points for escaping through hatch, and 7000 points for surviving the trial... that's hardly chicken scratch. 😏
I am well aware of how teamwork is the most effective means of escape. My point is, your objective is to survive. If your team is winning, then your best move is play with the team... but if your team is losing your best bet is to let them die and try for the 1vs1.
Now I think of it, I believe it was Hens made a streak like this once, where he tried to ensure he survived every game, and he was able to get quite a long streak going by following this mentality. Clairvoyance was his ace perk whenever the game went south.
The point I'm trying to get across is, the point of survivor is to survive. Your chances of survival are high in a SWF working together... but if you're SoloQ a more selfish playstyle tends to be the one that gets to play for hatch if your team buckles... and when you accept that, a lot of things make more sense in this game. 😁
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@Devil_hit11 said:
She pointed out that in the game store, there is no implied cooperation between survivors... you can choose not to work with your team. Such a seemingly benign sentence that I didn't take too seriously, but the more thought I lend to this sentence, the more it keeps affecting how I look at DBD... and it's redefined what I've come to understand about what the objectives of the game actually are.
That response really does not make much sense because the survivor generator objective is joined objective. you can't just do 1 gen and suddenly open exit gate for yourself leaving the rest behind. You have to finish all 5 gens. Those 5 gen are expected to be done across your team. So just based off objective, your heavily enforced to play as a team. You can try hide till very end but you get reduced score for escaping as 1 survivor.
SWFs extremely tough at high level? Just like real life, people who know each other and work together will do better than people who don't. SWFs are deprioritising the main Survivor bonus, and changing the game to where Killer's can use their altruism against them. Generally speaking this down grade doesn't give enough of a trade off for the benefits it brings, but the whole dynamic of the game is different because unlike at DBD base... the Survivors now actually ARE a team trying to get everyone out alive, and strong teamwork should and usually does prevail.... but a bad mistake and it can all go badly wrong very quickly. High level teams don't tend to and can't be forced to make the bad mistake the killer needs, hence the disparity.
soloq does not want to make mistakes. they're just forced into poor efficiency/bad plays due to lack of information. SWF will not make mistakes because they have correct information to always make the best play at any given moment therefore SWF only mistake is poor looping/Chase.
That is pretty much my point though friend. The survivors have a shared objective, which if completed gets them out of the trial... however just because the trial asks you to solve the same problem, and the most efficient way of doing that is to work together, doesn't mean you're necessarily allies.
If I take a good Saw V (I think) trap as an inspiration for an example, if there are 6 of us in a room, and the trial states we have to fill are container with 8 pints of blood to escape, we can of course all give a pint and a third each to escape, all of us would survive... but you having to slice a saw blade into your hand to do it is a different bag... Rather than maiming everyone, and equal option is to kill the one person in the group noone likes, and give all their blood, we still escape.
Everyone in that scenario has a different plan for how they would want to face that trial. Maybe 1 person refuses to do it outright and threatens violence... but if not, most people would probably take the even share solution... but there is always the chance that someone doesn't actually commit, hoping someone else takes up the slack for them... you can't trust everyone to play the game honourably... and you have yourself effectively a prisoners dilemma. You have to trust everyone else will play with the same mindset as you, and there is no guarantee they will... so do you break the rules first to preempt them doing it first?
What form does this take in DBD? DBD has hatch, DBD has perks to hide with. There is nothing stopping you from leading the killer to allies on gens to get away themselves... just because you wouldn't, doesnt mean people don't do it. This might sound unreasonable, but a more common scenario is if a player dies early and you're at 4 gens. You're in trouble... but if you don't get found and stay healthy, you can possibly still survive. Do you try for gens to get everyone out? Or do you focus on keeping yourself alive?
Regardless, I've seen players in SoloQ where I genuinely didn't understand how the hell they made such a bad mistake that screwed me up so badly... but with this new way of thinking... it's possible it was entirely deliberate. Just today I was left to die on hook totally uncontested against Twins... with 3 gens to go and 1 player dead. This seems like hanging me out to dry, which it is, but when you look at it as that was likely that players best option to remain undetected and get out alive, and acknowledging the pragmatism removes the annoyance.
I would still try to save my teammates at all times personally... but its suprising how accepting that their actual goal is to try to escape alive themselves, and not to expect help actually removes a lot of animonsity.
@HerInfernalMajesty said:
I really enjoyed this write-up.
The part that stood out to me was where you mentioned that the Killer’s goal is to cause as much suffering as possible. I agree with that. I love to play in a way that causes as much horror as possible. I am fine if all of the Survivors escape, in fact I sometimes really don’t like killing/eliminating them. As Killer I will sometimes miss a hit on purpose hoping that I am creating more suspense for the Survivor. When the EGC happens I don’t camp the last hook, I will instead go and search for other Survivors and give them a chance to save the hooked Survivor. I do this to increase the amount of adrenaline the Survivor players must be feeling.
For me as Killer, it’s all about the suspense and carnage. I don’t care as much about the kills so much as I care about the ripping and terrorizing. It sounds so gruesome I know but I truly believe it makes for a game filled with intense suspense which I believe translates into a more fun game.
I play a ton of Survivor but Killer is truly where my heart is at. I love love love to give the Survivors a scary movie experience of near misses, jump-scares, and havoc. Often times even when they escape it still feels like a great match as long as I get a large amount of interaction with the Survivors. Obviously I play mainly for the faux roleplaying aspect. I really don’t play to make the other real people on the other side of the screen miserable. Instead my main motivation is to create a heart pounding experience. The catch is that the Killer can’t do that unless they’re actually a real threat.
Anyways, long story short the matches truly are what you make of them and how you frame them in your mind going into the match. They can be as fun as you let them, or vice-versa as miserable as you let them make you. I find that playing solely for kills and escapes takes away from all of the thematic material that is provided that lets you create your own story as you play.
Thanks for this conversation provoking topic. It was nice to discuss this aspect of the game 😊
Thanks! Was a lot of fun, and I feel your mindset is the real place where this game has fun.
You sound like a blast to play against!
I try to play largely similarly, lots of chases, builds that are a little out there and unexpected to catch people off guard.
I don't like to single out a player or try to gun them out of the game, I'll almost always wait until I'm 6 hooks in before I sacrifice, and I'll usuually give everyone one freebie where I won't go mean. I'll accept one flashlight save, or 1 instance of a death hook survivor tripping up under my feet, or 1 instance of saboing or unhookimg under my nose... but once your ticket is spent, there is no mercy for any further infractions. 😁
More often than not once I've gotten all my hooks, I'll let 1, sometimes 2 survivors go.... the kill count doesn't mean anything to me next to just feeling like I put in a good and exciting killer performance. 😁🤘
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I think you need to refine your argument a little better. Annoying and distracting is pretty subjective, so you need to define WHY you find it annoying/distracting. Is it that the lines are too repetative? Do they interrupt you trying to listen for in game cues too much? Does the characters voice just grate on you?
For example if I play Devil's Advocate, the obvious counter argument is:
Why you would play a character with voice lines, if you don't want their voice lines? Their voice is a key part of what makes that character that character... The only way I can think of to explain it is by saying "I want a Peter Venkman survivor, but I want the character to remain silent, and I don't want to hear Bill Murray's voice throughout the whole trial"... it's like OK? Why the hell would you play Peter Venkman then in the first place? Bill Murray's charisma and charm, and quips in the moment is what makes the character, the character... no different to Cage or Wake... by muting them, the character loses their identity, and it kinda becomes pointless even adding them.
To be clear, I'm not objecting... It's a harmless feature that only affects your own game, so it's not a problem... but I think it's a odd thing to request that vast majority of players who want to play as that character won't care about, and in a lot of cases be baffled why it's even an option... so it doesn't make it a likely thing to get added without strong reasoning.
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I personally like the idea a lot.
- I love making builds and by extension I would love to craft builds for teams around these restrictions.
- It'd address bully squads, as they would ahve to work harder to craft their play style rather than running all the same persk.
- it'd encourage more careful team construction between your friends and their individual skills, where you start actually trying to create, and identify yurself as a role for your team.
- Creates great perk diversity choices for survivors, as you may want the same perk for 2 players, but have to think of similar/less popular perks.
I think such a feature adds a lot to the game. Sadly actually getting it put in the game is a pipe dream sadly, and support for it would be low since, as you've pointed out, playing vs. a full META killer can be annoying... and especially the strongest killers right now, any limitations is a hot bed.