UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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The big issue really is that Deja Vu trumps pretty much every gen aura reveal perk you could ever create, because it doesn't really have any trade offs.
- No range limit
- Always active
- Information on which gens to break without any investigation or time investment
- Additional repair bonus of 6%
I kinda want alternative perks for gen auras to Deja Vu, so I'dnot be in favour of such a radical rework... but you're gonna struggle to get a perk that provides equivalent value.
As such, if there is no intention of nerfing Deja Vu (which I can see being fought insanely hard), Visionary needs an effect that offers other effects in the game outside of gen auras.
I think something that makes sense for Visonary is to keep it's effects as is, but remove the cooldown. Then add:
- You recover from the Blindness status effect 50% faster.
This means that Visionary has a niche that Deja Vu doesn't; it can be used as a means of ensuring better value from your aura reading perks. You can stack Vigil on top of it to become basically unaffected by blindness perks /add ons, and otherwise protect the vslue for things like Kindred, Windows Of Opportunity, Bond, or obviously downed and hook auras.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647663#Comment_3647663
Oh, it's NOT haste! I want to clear that up straight away! Action speed refers to the time it takes for a killer to kick gens, doors, pallets, and picking up and hooking survivors.
I believe Fire Up uses the same stat.
The name 'Railroad', by the way, is a reference to the 'Underground Railroad', used to smuggle slaves to freedom. And I think Slow Start is an alright name, though I'm sure there's some more lore-themed names that could serve as well.
My God... that's 2 brain fails in a row... my bad... well at least I've already been the idiot for anyone else who reads π€£π€£π€£
Edit: I do really want to see another pick up speed perk for killer other than Fire Up. So not against that at all.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647657#Comment_3647657
Yeah, Cover of Darkness is basically a repurposed idea I had for an OTR rework. I'd rather OTR work like that, but I doubt BHVR will ever figure that one out.
For Slow Start: It won't disable fully when destroyed. The longer it's been up, the bigger the action speed bonus for the killer, and that would stay, even if the totem is destroyed.
Manufacturing Failure: I think I forgot to remove the Hex tag. I do recall thinking it would work fine as a non-hex. Bit unfocused today as I'm pissed off that my $250, brand new headset is essentially already broken.
Ahhh my bad, my brain blanked the 20% haste boost for the killer that stays somehow (yikes! Scary). Objection withdrawn! π
I'll take this opportunity for some alternative names:
- Boon: Railroad - Boon: Transfer Consciousness, Boon: Planar Shift.
- Hex: Slow Start - Hex: Awakened Wrath, Hex: Rising Evil
Brutal regarding your headset dude... hopefully something copious amounts of black electrical tape can fix π¨
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@Firellius said:
-- Survivor perks --
Boon: Railroad
Once this boon has been placed on a totem, Railroad activates. While Railroad is active, and a survivor is hooked, after ten seconds, a hooked survivor is moved to a hook within this boon's aura radius, after which the boon is deactivated.
Intended for anti-camp. Allows you to make saves against a proxy-camping killer, though at significant additional time cost.
Cover of Darkness
Cover of Darkness activates once the survivor is unhooked by any means. While Cover of Darkness is active, the survivor's footsteps are silenced, their aura can't be read, they make no grunts of pain, they leave no blood pools, they leave no scratch marks, and can't be made to scream. Cover of Darkness lasts for 60 seconds, or until the survivor performs a conspicuous action.
Intended for anti-tunnel. Makes you virtually impossible to track.
-- Killer perks --
Hex: Slow Start
While this hex is active, Slow Start gains a token every ten seconds, to a maximum of 20. Additionally, all survivors incur a repair speed penalty of 20%, minus 1% per token, and the killer's action speeds are increased by 1% per token.
If Slow Start is broken, it can no longer gain tokens, and the repair speed penalty is removed. However, the action speed bonus will persist.
Intended to boost killers' poor early game somewhat. Breaking the hex early is rewarded, but not mandatory. The action speed increase can also help against bully squads, as it makes pick-ups slightly safer.
Hex: Manufacturing Failure
Whenever you down a survivor, all survivors within 24 meters of the downed survivor will have their items disabled for 10 seconds.
Anti-bully-squad. Disables flashlights and firecrackers/flashbangs.
Some ideas I actually real like there.
Boon: Railroad - Sounds pretty nuts actually, and a rather crazy use of boons; very ingenuitive, and I like the idea of 1 shot boons... perhaps breaking the totem would be interesting to create a weakness from Hex: Pentimento. I think there are questions to think about, such as what happens if 2 of them are in play, there is the possibility of using it to troll, but nothing that kills the idea.
Cover of Darkness - strikes me as layering over OTR. I agree with having a perk with this principle, but I'd wanna try to come up with something a little more distinct from OTR.
Hex: Slow Start - I again like the principle, and an anti rush perk is something I'd like to see in the general pool. I'd feel like a Hex perk shouldn't completely shutdown though... perhaps give it a starting 24% slowdown that decays down to 6% slowdown (3 minutes)?
Hex: Manufacturing Failure - Not so convinced on this one, especially as a hex perk. Would be rather weak for what is in essence funtionally the same as a Lightborn/Forced Hesitation that doesn't help you get a down, and can't even stop sabo squads. I'd prefer something that helps during 3 man hook rushes to get everyone out at gate.
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I can't tell you how much I appreciate the fact you used the correct terms; having to reply "it's an anti FACE camp mechanic" was getting really old.
What your question boils down to is, should there be something done to reduce the effectiveness of camping?
My personal opinion is no... we have a very diverse cast of killers, but the prevailing trait that separates the best killers is mobility. In DBD the simple truth is that mobility is king... it is THE most valuable asset that can be in a killers arsenal, followed in second place by range.
As a result there are some killers lacking both these things who just straight up lose if they try to run back and forth across the map, and only get a few key moments that can win or lose the game. Those killers can create more moments for themselves making things like saves tougher on survivors. The extreme examples being Trapper and Bubba hooking in basement. This is the main scenario where their usually very limited power comes alive.
Realistically I don't think you can bridge the gap between mobile and immobile killers... and unless you can find a way of making less mobile non ranged killers at least in the same league, you can't remove camping.
There is also the fact that, if a survivor team plays smart and has the right set up, they can absolutely crush a camper, which is why fast killers don't bother to do it, they can afford to leave hook and pressure without fear of falling a long way behind just because they walked the wrong direction after a hook.
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Even if not an official license, a lot of inspiration can be taken from this kind of idea.
An amorphous killer, usimg Granular or Fluid like powers have a lot of potential mileage. Potential for stealth travel as a puddle seeping across the floor, body morphing to attack, manifestation, etc etc, all can be really cool.
I saw this suggestion that involved a visual terror radius that instead of an audio TR, would seep across surfaces near survivors in unclear patches.
@Haven414 said:
Finally finished my Ink Demon killer concept! Probably gonna make a video out of it soon, but if ur cool with reading, here's the Doc I wrote it on (feel free to make comments, I have them enabled):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G-stEM__iyat8RR2vh3EDZUiAiSFrdw939oc4Pt1OF4/edit?usp=sharing
If done well something like this could be absolutely awesome.
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@jonifire said:
I would like to get shards for dailies.
Harder sell I think, but a more reasonable request would be additional Devotion progress, which achieves that goal by proxy.
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These were my suggestions to provide perks that I think are missing from the general pool.
Priority perks that survivors need in general pool to my mind are:
- Anti Tunnel
- Anti Camp
Priority perks that killers need in general pool to my mind are:
- Anti Toolbox gen rush
- Anti Protection Hit/Body Block
With that in mind, I like Hex: Diminished Hope as it buys time at the start of the map. Numbers seem a little high but the concept is good.
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I dunno man... the counters are damned obvious to me.
They're not even mechanical skill... you can literally learn the counter by reading the patch notes and thinking about it for a few minutes... apparently too hard for some people.
I wouldn't mind exceot so many people then sit complaining they're OP and need nerfs... it's like listening to someone complain a Knight is OP in chess because they got forked once...
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Nah, body blocking is a case of you reap what you sew.
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Edit: Deleting due to shame and anxiousness.
Very cute pictures C3, always a joy seeing your work ππ€
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Two charges though... when playing around a pallet, Blight gets one positional rush, and one committed rush... only having one rush you can damage with is not much room to mind game and bait at windows and pallets, and looks quite predictable...
Also in general play that sounds like a lot of walking for Blight to get to loops before using his power. Even at max kilter he's looking at 30m tops per pair of rushes, then a 7.5s cooldown.
I'm no pro and haven't seen it in practise yet, but I'd be interested in seeing how this practically plays out... cause it sounds like a pretty hefty trade off.
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My main thought would be add a new condition I'm going to call "fatigued".
Fatigued causes the survivor to repair generators 2.5% slower, and doubles for every other survivor still remaining in the trial to a maximum of 20%. (Sacrificing survivors reduces the effect with the idea the survivors are getting more desperate).
Each time a Survivor is hooked, that survivor becomes fatigued for 2 minutes. Does not apply if the target is already fatigued.
This means it's actually beneficial hooking survivors quickly back to back to impart a slow down on their gen progress, and the fact it's applied as the survivor is hooked, camping is also not making use of the survivors debuff.
The obvious problem, is this encourages Survivors to run DS, OTR and alike and try to body block the killer, since they aren't efficient repairing anyway...
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I'd personally recommend never buying a chapter because of perk strength, as they are subject to change. It also encourages a developer to release content overpowered for sales then nerf it later, which though BHVR doesn't have strong evidence of doing intentionally, is not something you want to promote.
Good reasons to buy DLC to my mind are things that don't/are exceedingly unlikely to change: -
- Because you like the character.
- Because you like the conceptual idea of playing with those perks irrespective of strength.
- To complete achievements/trophies or be a completionist.
- Because you want to support the game developers.
To that end, Alan Wake's perks are interesting. They are not particularly strong and won't shift the meta, but they do have some interesting perk synergies if you're into doing novel and quirky builds.
His voice lines are pretty good too. Not overly intrusive conpared to similar characters, but enough to have a more interesting flavour.
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@Adaez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646016#Comment_3646016
Bruh, by the time a killer gets to kick a gen 8 times in a 3 gen, game is already over for survivors most of the times
Yeah but that's the point isn't it? If the killer has been chasing survivors, getting downs and hooks, burning pallets and resources, AND holding a 3-gen, the killer has been playing well... if the game is already over by the time the 3 gen mechanic comes in, the killer must have been commiting to chases and catching survivors.
The anti 3-gen system is not there to nuke the strategy of 3-gens to the floor, killers holding a 3-gen is a valid strategy, the same thing as proxy camping is a strategy that the AFC doesnt prevent. The anti-gen system is NOT there to remove 3-genning from the game.
The point of the 3-gen system is to prevent killers from blocking the game for absurd time nearly indefinitely with excessive slowdown that allows them to never commit to survivors and just keep regressing gens without downing or chasing anyone.
Survivors complaining about the AFC and 3-gen mechanisms really need to understand that neither of these implementations are to completely prevent a killer from using that strategy. They are both there to ensure that survivors can get windows to play around those strategies, and safe guard against people exploiting mechanics and systems that allow them to subvert the goal of the game just to grief other players.
You will inevitably break 3 gen if the killer doesn't chase you. Yes you can lose to a 3-gen, but the killer cannot auto win by not engaging with you, and that is the point. Unless you have evidence the contrary, the 3 gen system does not need to be made stronger.
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Gonna have to disagree with you there. If the killer can't regress gens anymore, they can't 3-gen. Even if you only get 1% and keep pre-running, the killer will lose. At some point they have to commit to somebody and that's the window to break it.
Yes the pressure can be high on a 3 gen, it always has been, but 4 survivors who have only 1 or 2 hooks between them (which is what happens if the killer just camps a 3gen all game), if they are remotely working together should be able to get it done unless they make a quick series of bad mistakes.
Kicks are stronger yes, but what killers have ever been relying on kicks other than when using Overcharge? Most killers ran Pain Res, Pop, Surge anyway instead of kicking... and that hasn't really changed... so the 3 gen system introduces a buff for killers that doesn't really change much anyway, but with a downside if they stack gen regression.
The big issue being discussed right now is actually hitting the limit on the centre gens happens too easily, as it is disproportionately punishing on the less mobile killers who tend to stick near the middke of the map and rely on perks like Surge to make up for their lack of mobility.
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@Caiman said:
The flashlights work because the Entity says so. Same reason Nemesis is impeded by a flimsy chunk of plywood falling on him despite being a 9 foot tall superweapon built like a small bus.
Even skinny little former drug addict Amanda just gives it a wee kick and it shatters... mind you... Amanda must have been working out in the void... she also picks up a non cooperative David like a naughty toddler and walks around with him sand bagging her just fine... π
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645626#Comment_3645626
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/98IIKEZA5T53/elr4ojxi-jpg-large.jpg
Thanks to @C3Tooth lol. It costed him his addons but he helped her up.
What is this... a murmur in my cold dead heart...
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@fussy said:
I'm more and more often noticing bad impact on my matches of stealth players on both sides.
In my killer games i usually bring one aura perk. It's BBQ, Nowhere to Hide or Gearhead. Rarely i run UW instead. And it's almost impossible to go through all these tokens, unless you are stealth killer. Thing is, i constantly chase same people over and over again. 2 distortions in lobby pretty often will end up in 6 hooks on 2 people without distortion. I'm tunneling simply because I have no other choice.
If i didn't see anyone on my BBQ or Gearhead and gens are on the other side of the map, most often I'll just check the nearest ones and return to proxy camping, since all other decisions could cost me a lot of time. Unless i play Blight, Dredge, Artist or Alien, of course.
And I was even more convinced of what was written above after watching these players in my survivor games. I noticed that distortion users act literally like bots.
Barely heard terror radius? Walk slowly beside the rock.
Killer somewhere in my way to hooked survivor? You know what, i will just seat here and watch you go to second stage. God forbid killer will know i exist in this match.
He heals me after unhook and hears TR? Well, stay here injured and i will be ride beside this rock if anything.
Whole team died because Distortion player did nothing but crouching whole game? HE WILL TEABAG THE HELL OUT OF THIS HATCH!!! SEE THIS, KILLER??? IM WINNER HERE!!! YOU ARE LOSER, HATCH IS MINE!! OH GOD IM SO GOOD AT THIS GAME
Yeah, i got it, most Distortion users are awful in chase and maybe it's right to help yourself not to be founded. But i don't understand the point of this game for you, guys. How you want to be good at this game without being good in chase? Like, you will have 3k hours in this game and all this time it's just m1+crouch simulator for you?
I think Distortion should gain stacks MUCH harder, it's stupid how many boring and unhealthy gameplay produce unlimited of this perk.
My... this thread escalated quickly eh?
I have a similar opinion of Distortion but it was an opposite perspective that stopped me using it. I've had games where I've played it, and my team are 5 hooks in and I've thought "I actually need to take chase now"... then had a real hard time getting the killer to chase me.
I've hit this problem where because I've not been found, now the killer has little reason to chase me... and I've almost had to deliberately throw myself at his feet and fall on their knife just to make myself a juicy enough carrot for my dead on hook teammates to get away while they hook me.
As killer, just as you describe, there have been times I've wound up tunnelling because healthy survivors keep hiding. The only person I've been able to find is the injured person I can still hear... I don't have time to risk searching for 10 seconds to potentially find no one and lose up to 30s of time vs. going after the wounded survivor and hopefully draw somebody out.
There have been games where I've been chasing the only player I've found repeatedly, and literally exclaimed out loud "I'm sorry Claudette, someone in your team better show me their ass right now, otherwise I'm gonna be forced to kill you I'm afraid"...
I don't think distortion suffers from charging only outside of combat. The perk itself literally functions to keep you out of chase, so this seems pretty fair to me.
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One thing that does keep striking me about everyone hating on this change... it's only a big deal if you're hitting the obsession. I dont necessarily agree with the nerf either... but to say its gutted seems a little over dramatic...
Characters like Pig, Trapper, Pinhead etc... your power/special attacks couldn't really be used to reasonably circumvent having to m1 anyway... so it more or less functions exactly the same way it did before (on Trapper its literally unchanged other than it taking 5 stacks instead of 4 to really start cooking). Like outside of specialling the obsession, which the weakest killers can't do anyway, it's not significantly different to how its always been.
Trickster was never a STBFL user, and unless you're using the ricochet or pierce add-ons then it's still not really a factor, and Deathslinger literally only loses the ability to wound the obsession for free... in every other way he operates exactly the same...
The obvious answer to me seems to be... just don't hit the obsession... anyone like Pig, Trapper, Pinhead, Myers, Freddy, OnryΕ, etc, are basically unchanged π€¨
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645015#Comment_3645015
Alien kind of works for both sides. The flame throwers beep when you're nearby so while you can track survivors via tunnels, survivors get a warning you are near.
Alien actually sounds God tier awesome for this mode!
Being spoopy Alien sounds loads of fun π
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@Atom7k said:
I kind of disagree with everyone.
It is absolutely demoralising ot get hit by 4 adrenalins. I think the main issue with this perk is the same issue we have with WoO. It's the high pickrate.
But even then it is a really strong perk. The point I think where its unfair is, that it will activate no matter what youve contributed to reach the objective. So even someone who was just edge map camping half the game will benefit from it.
Mostly the survivor you have been chasing for way too long gets a free huge second chance if not escape.
The only change I'd like to see is, that you have to have at least repaired 1 1/2 gens (in %). Which means you complete one solo and one with another then you get your adrenalin.
See I like that idea on paper, you could even make it a token system that has a few different triggers that grant more features of Adrenaline the more tokens you have, like Devour Hope or Pentimento.
However in practise you get this issue where if someone has been tunneled all game, but somehow stayed alive for 5 gens completed, that player gets screwed by it.
The two changes it does need are: -
- Doesn't recover a health state on hook or carried by the Killer.
- Doesn't wake up vs. Freddy.
Adrenaline needs to be strong because a survivor is playing without a perk for the whole game... I can't honestly say I think it needs nerfs beyond that... nerfs that wouldn't kill the perk anyway.
Other than that I think you'd have to completely rework it...
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@Kaethela said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643768#Comment_3643768
You're not missing out. This mode is ridiculously unfun for both sides.
Would it be better with snowskulls? ππππ
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644202#Comment_3644202
M1 killers specifically cannot afford to patrol generators at the far reaches of the large maps. This means they sre forced by game design to patrol the central generators (usually 4 gens). This means Surge usually consistently hits the center gens.
Another way is the incredibly common survivor tactic to entirely focus on center gens and leave the far away gens untouched to set up for an easy endgame. This means the only gens to even defend are the center gens which means they will get regressed a lot more with kicks or perks. This essentially is out of the hands of the killer unless they choose to never even try to regress the gens being super focused on.
@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644283#Comment_3644283
While it does help against that, it also hurts Killers that aren't 3-genning. If the system activated at the end it would only affect those situations.
Just look at the cursed Team ETERNAL vs Cm9i match: Like all 3-genning Killers (from the start) he never really left his zone, which means the Survivors did every other gens basically unbothered and were in almost pristine condition when the 3-gen battle started.
A Killer that chases and hooks during the game will likely have to deal with a Survivor team in rough shape compared to a 3-genner that wanted to play chess from the start. If the system only starts at the end it punishes those 3-genners much more since the Survivors are in good shape and map ressources are still plentiful.
The current system punishes non-3-genning Killers as much (if not more since their builds won't be made for it) than 3-gen players and it shouldn't be.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643596#Comment_3643596
The problem is the opposite though. As a killer you don't WANT to hit that scenario, because if you do you lose. Yeah you can drag the game out, but by design you lose every time. So if they only made it count during the 3 gen, and then lowered the count to say, 4 regression events, i think it would work out much better.
I see... actually a strong point.
I don't think the current implementation in the majority of games will cause the problem of overly punishing killers... but there will be the odd outliers no doubt... the system you are all proposing does seem to more reliably address the problem where Killer's may get punished unintentionally....
However, there are a couple of issues I see is the system not enabling until 3 gens are left:
- While it is harder to hold a 4-gen, there are certain map configurations where a 4 gen can be nearly as bad as a 3 gen, and even if not, you dont really want to wait until you've already made several attempts to break the 3 gen before you give up, take the 4th gen and the counter measure now starts to take effect from 0. I would argue it'd make more sense to enable it with 4 gens left instead of 3.
- This does effectively allow the killer to hold the 3 gen throughout most of the match, and we all know that the game tends to really get to the crunch when 2 gens or so are left and the area of play is smaller. If the killer isn't penalised for holding that 3-gen from the start, anyone who does attempt to break it early risks using resources they are going to need later, but the time the 3-gen system starts to take effect, it's already too late. This does push the game to a "do outer gens first, then do inner gens" standard strategy/playstyle, because why take the risk?
Point 2 MIGHT be relieved by my suggestion for point 1, maybe in conjunction with the AFC making hooking in the 3 gen harder, it'd be enough, but it'd easily teeter into being ineffective to address the actual problem.
The current system does have flaws, but it DOES strongly encourage the killer to hunt rather than camp. I'm not sure how much of a loss you'd be able to attribute to the anti 3gen system with Surge over what you'd encounter normally.
An alternative point to help the current system is have a minimum regression amount to count as a regression event. So unless a gen loses a minimum of 5% its not considered regression event, which I think helps Surge not get blown constantly.
Regardless, good food for thought.
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644202#Comment_3644202
The issue isn't reaching 8 regression events before endgame, that will be pretty rare unless you stack 4 slowdown including Surge a Eruption (keeping in mind that Surge & Eruption together alone can chew through 3 events in one go).
The issue is that, unless the Killer absolutely destroys the Survivors (underhanded means or not), then even just kicking gens normally can lead to a tough endgame even though the Killer didn't intend to 3-gen.
If at least 3 Survivors make it to last gen (which is common if not using certain strategies and/or playing most Killers) then if even one gen is like halfway through it's regression events then it puts the Killer on the defensive since they need to prioritize defending THIS gen. Even if the Survivors 3-gen themselves this happens often. This is especially common with important gens like center gens that Survivors tend to come back to often.
The other major issue is that the system puts a hard-limit on non-regression perks (Nowhere to Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment etc.) which can screw the Killer over late-game of they kick gens too often for perk value. Why kick gens for the chance to see Survivors's auras if it takes away 1/8th of my kicks?
S-tier Killers don't care about the system because they never regressed gens much in the first place outside of Pop and PainRes. The system affects weaker Killers more AND limits perk variety and viability.
It's not a matter of hitting 8 events, it's a matter of being limited to not hit that cap too soon.
That's a pretty good argument, and some actual meat to discuss.
I did personally advocate for instead of blocking the gen, instead make it so that regression events drop the 5% progression loss (and all loss sources) to 0.1% progress loss, and regression rate drops from 0.25c/s to 0.01c/s, and that would mean killer could carry on using and proccing those perks.
I still think it's overthinking it though. Surge is not compatible with perks like Eruption, NTH or Trail, especially now survivors can't gen tap anymore, as they can't proc together, they step on each others toes. You can't kick the generator to activate them after it's been hit by Surge. You'd be better off taking Pop to get more value out of each kick... and between Eruption and Pop, you've got very hefty regression that makes Trail not very effective here. Ruin would be a better combo with Surge, maybe in combo with Surveilance (or ofc a hex defence perk).
Combining Eruption with perks like Trail of Torment and Nowhere to Hide is still efficient, because you get more regression on your initial kick, making it last longer to pop Eruption, so you got the initial 5%, plus another 10%. NTH helps you ensure you get in chase with anyone close, or more certainty your Trail is safe for the time being. When you down, you got more value from Eruption than kicking the gen twice, and realistically how many times do you get Eruption on a gen per game? My personal best when not ditching chases and hard camping a 3 gen is 3 times... that's 45% on Eruption alone. You're put Pop on that and you've got some really efficient gen slowdown.
The anti 3-gen system does limit the more unga bunga gen regression perk stacking, but it's certainly something you can still plan and optimise around, especially when you put DMS, Deadlock and GE in the mix.
I'd agree with allowing the killer to still kick gens to activate perks that rely on it, even if all regression was disabled, though this does still allow Overcharge to be used for 3-genning, so I understand why it isn't... but anti-3-gen still doesn't look like the boogie man people are suggesting.
Edit: The thing is if these perks are too weak as a result of the 3-gen change (which I'm not convinced they are), they can be looked at as targets to be buffed in other ways. E.g.
- NTH gets a longer range or up time.
- Trail can have a maximum distance of say 36m that's its aura is revealed to survivors.
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@MikeStev said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/404583/how-do-you-counter-any-mean-necessary
Hmm... easy, just Press space button to destroy the pallet.
*Eye Twitch* Don't acknowledge... just break the pallet...
C3 is fine... got the "Back off man, I'm an Artist" pass π
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@HarlockTaliesin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643585#Comment_3643585
Downs don't equal hooks. A somewhat decent group has options to prevent it. Sabo hooks, flashlight saves, body blocking the killer and taking hits, BU+FTP, Boil Over + camping high areas, etc. Against a good group you can get a lot of downs but securing hooks can be problematic. There's also issues like hook spawns sticking the killer with dead zones right away.
Depends on killer, of course. For example, Pyramid Head may not have this problem if you've gotten the survivors to run through some trails. Though that presents its own issues, as hook perks don't proc on cages.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643709#Comment_3643709
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643818#Comment_3643818
Not really, particularly on indoor maps. A survivor could've only gotten a few percent on some gens, but when Surge goes off it'll still hit the gen. Over and over and over. I've done this for shiz n giggles playing survivor on indoor maps vs killers running Surge, when there's some good saves going on or the killer is screwed by RNG like on Midwich. Running around and getting a little on a bunch of gens that are likely to be hit by Surge started and keep repairing them up after. It winds up being a troll session as the killer's both having hook issues and can't kick many gens anymore.
In Gideon's it's a riot. Some survivors deliberately go down near the middle of the map on either floor, other survivors feed the killer pallets (even if it's just to block movement) and blinds/sabo'd hooks on the way to a hook and let Surge hit the 8 limit on the entire map.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643556#Comment_3643556
This is a PITA as well. Besides counting hooks, managing cooldowns/tokens, remembering where windows are and which pallets are still up, which survivor is running what perks, the repair progress of which gens, and so on, now you have to try to count and remember kicks/perk procs per gen. This is a headache. Killer UI needs some improvements.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643557#Comment_3643557
Even if it activated with two gens left it would be more reasonable. With all the gens up at the start and so many ways to cause both deliberate and incidental damage to them it can narrow defense options.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644153#Comment_3644153
Some version of this could also have been a viable option.
Yeah, of course I understand that, but even at its worst, I'd still expect at least 4 hooks on 8 downs, and that's if you've been rather unlucky.
Unless you want to argue you regularly experience less than a 50Ωͺ down/hook conversion rate, it still sounds like we're focusing on exceptions rather than the rule.
I'm happy to hear the argument, maybe you do experience this at high levels of play, but thus far I've had rather weak argumentation saying Surge hits the limit of regression events quickly, and this means the anti 3 gen syatem is unfair on killer. This however seems to ignore you've gotten 8 procs of Surge avross multiple gens, and I would argue, managing to get 8 hits of it, even if you've only gotten 2 hooks, you've still regressed gens at least 48% off the regression events alone...
That is a lot of time you've bought, especially on a 3 gen... and if you've failed to convert that much time, I have to question why?
I would not expect to get 8 procs of Surge on a gen unless I was specifically camping a 3-gen all game... please explain how you hit this limit in normal play, cause it sounds like you're getting a lot of value from it.
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@DeathByBJ224 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/404233/survivor-is-not-fun
DUH have you not notice the amount of aura reading perks killers have?! its tremendous! i personally hate playing survivor and im a survivor main. i usually have a duo with me where we run boil over,flip flop, and breakdown. (4th is optional) . with a toolbox and most our games end up us being tunnelled or bleeding out cause the killer cant hook us? so at that point we just end up being slugged and death. the game is rigged for it to be KILLER SIDED. i do not care if i sounded survivor bias but i hate the stress i go through as a survivor in this game
Sorry I have re-read your post 3 times and am struggling to get your point...
You take a build with a duo, where its whole point is to prevent hooks via wiggling off, sabotaging hooks or pallet stunning the Killer, wasting huge amounts of the killers time... you're mad you get slugged and bled out, and you claim the game is killer sided?
What did you think would happen? Your whole build is designed to prevent them from hooking you... do you expect the Killer to keep trying to hook you and walking into stuns like a guppy fish?
The obvious counter once someone realises what you're doing is to slug both of you and ensure the other 2 survivors can't get to you to keep you off gens and also keep you from interfering... you brought that entirely on yourself.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643757#Comment_3643757
I can confirm that it will not be today.
For some reason this really amused me xD
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643585#Comment_3643585
One of the top players in the world had a 4 down and still didn't win the match at only getting a 2k. A down does not mean a hook. Streamed it not too long ago.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643798#Comment_3643798
If it's indeed supposed to only stop people who just sit at the 3 gen at the beginning of the match and refuse to chase and down people, then they should drop it to 6 events and have it reset after hooking someone.
Thats... an odd statement dude... I am not sure of the relevance but fine I'll respond...
Whatever the result of the kills in this game with 4 downs was, an exception doesn't refute a trend. If the killer has a lot of pressure on downs, it can snowball hard in the killers favour.
There is the question in your argument that 4 downs does not equate to 8... At 8 downs you should in majority of cases have at least 4 hooks, if not 6, 7 or 8, unless you're going on huge slugging sprees or survivors are constantly making saves. The slugging sprees tend to be on non-m1 killers, and Surge only works off m1s; and if the survivors are constantly making saves around the same 3 gens, then they should be winning. Both scenarios here, where gens are being blocked are still within reasonable parameters for the game.
8 downs should mean in the vast majority of games you likely have someone close to death hook or tunneled out already... but if you've spent the game holding a 3-gen and Surge has built up 8 regressions worth for you, then you should be a pretty commanding position at this point. Is it possible to not be? Yes of course... but as I say an exception doesn't disprove a trend.
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Just gonna play devils advocate and throw a different thought out there for the sake of discussion.
If you're a survivor who regularly experiences this, I've noticed a correlation between the higher MMR you are, the sweatier the game is.
When I play solo, I actually come up against these things rarely. When I play SWF I encounter these things a lot more. It also changes based on who (and how experienced) I play in a SWF with... which is one of the reasons why when people keep spouting MMR doesn't work, I'm not so convinced.
I'm not trying to belittle or insult anyone, say anyone here is wrong, or denying their experiences... but could it be that the reason you lament the nerfs to survivor perks as much as you do is because you yourself play sweaty and in the past rode the strength of those meta perks to much higher levels and are now forced into a playstyle you dont want any more?
When you yourself had perks strong enough to smash even the tunneling killers, doesn't that in of itself highlight the strength of those perks was too high?
From a newer players perspective, I rarely run meta perks, and even though I always try to win, most games I play as solo survivor are pretty fun for the most part... it's only when I start playing with people who tend to sweat that my games tend to get sweaty... which sounds obvious... but it also sounds like the problem you're experiencing.
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It's the same logic as PWYF.
Play with Your Food is a Unique Perkbelonging to The Shape.Prestige The Shape to Prestige 1, 2, 3 respectively to unlock Tier I, Tier II, Tier III of Play with Your Food for all other Characters. Nerf: decreased the Movement Speed bonus to 3/4/5Β % per Token. Nerf: added a cool-down timer to Token-accumulation. Change: updated the Perk's description to specify the types of Attack instead of just referring to them as "offensive actions". Tokens are acquired whenever the Killer's Obsession escapesCuriously Engineers Fang from Pinhead doesn't count for losing stacks, but regular chains does.
So any of the above you have listed don't constitute bugs, it was known when the change was made. So the real talking point is for both PWYF and STBFL, what should be on the list and what shouldn't be? What would you call a "special attack"?
Personally I would say Trapper traps shouldn't be considered a "special attack", as Trapper didnt attack the survivor. Plague bile shouldn't either because the vomit itself doesn't damage the survivor, its the infection it caused.
Deathslinger spear should, because it is an attack, as is Nemesis Tentacle and Trickster Knives, though wounding hits is more intuitive. Pinhead logic should be reversed in my mind.... by these are things you can call "attacks", and STBFL basically is saying "leave the obsession alone".
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Wasn't there a busted Knight 3-gen strategy that made him basically unbeatable on RPD? From the sounds of it the feature is working as intended.
Though there is the point that on 6.5.0 his guard break was buffed to double that of the standard gen kick at 5%, and now with the new kicks it's back in line again for him to the base kick progression loss.
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Ahahahahaha, that's brilliant xD
I hope that is never fixed, cause that is a hilarious counter xD
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@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643813#Comment_3643813
EULA:
"BHVR has the absolute right to regulate, discontinue, update, modify or eliminate any Virtual Goods at any time in its sole discretion and BHVR shall have no liability to you or anyone else for these actions."
Theoretically, they could remove her without refunding anyone.
You know, fair point, you are correct. I did totally forget about that clause in EULA, so my point is factually wrong.
Though... that in of itself would be a PR disaster regarding anyone who did pay for the content. Like if a developer shows they will readily remove the content you've paid for... would you be inclined to buy future content? I would certainly think twice.... and like it or not, it's the players who buy the content that you really don't want to hack off.
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Yeap, not only it would be a dangerous precident to set, but all the money that Skull Merchant has made for BHVR would need to be refunded...
This would not be the profits being refunded, but the revenue... Money which likely doesn't exist anymore, as its probably already been rolled back into the company for later development/releases. Such a loss in company funds would result in a very substantial blow to BHVRs finances, that would at the very least severely impact the release of all potential future and in progress content, and in worse case may even snowball to actually killing the game for real.
The hatred for Skull Merchant at this point seems like a meme. Discussion about her has long been dead and devoid of constructive feedback (and ots questionable that it ever was), and she's become just an outlet that people love to hate on.
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To me it seems pretty clear with the healing nerfs that BHVR want survivors to heal each other instead of themselves.
I believe BHVR still wants survivor to be a 'Will you work together to survive, or will you betray your teammates to save your own skin?' type thing, and that can't really exist if survivors can just heal themselves as easily as each other.
It would be nice if rarer medkits had some better effects between rarities, even if it was things that only affect altruistic healing. E.g.
- Increased charges but have a greater reduced self healing item efficiency (e.g. 32 charges but 50% reduced item efficiency when self-healing).
- +50% altruistic healing speed on a downed survivor.
- Increase probability of skill checks by 15% when altruistic healing.
Just a pass to give some interesting combos for different scenarios to open up builds.
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Testing the waters I guess.
I'm bummed cause Ima miss the whole thing... so I would like to see a month long extension π
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15 seconds Β· Clipped by undeddjester Β· Original video "DBD chill stream 2/4/24" by Thebuffshaman
Clipped to view easier.
Slowed it right down to 0.25 times speed, looks like a 90 degree flick to me, judging by his facing at the start of his charge and his red light on the frame he hits you.
I think it looks odd because at the point you fall it seems like you should be clear, but your hitbox is slightly further back behind you than you think when sprinting as survivor, and ofc once he has swung he can look normally again so can look right at you... so I think that's what you saw causing the confusion.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643601#Comment_3643601
Hooking someone with full stacks, instead of moriing someone, could actually backfire and I think it would be cool.
Actually removing tv auras would be huge, you are right that it still has enough counterplay, but you could at least try to go for tps in chases again.
I mean yeah I agree with the conclusion, I think it's fine to remove both the cap entirely and the TV auras...
The condemn cap though is something that, although I dont agree with limiting it, I can kinda see the argument.
I don't like the TV auras either, but I'm a little less convinced of the TV aura impact though when it comes to better survivors. (Just to check my understanding as I'm on holiday atm and can't verify myself, the auras are visible when you're holding a tape for that TV and when you're in range of a powered TV right? We're only talking about the aura of nearby powered TVs?)
I just donβt think the TV aura is a big deal unless you're against inexperienced survivors. If you remove the TV aura against your average player who isn't paying attention and/or isn't mindful enough to react to the static and understand where the TV is, it's huge... but against experienced players who have a good handle on gen spawns (and by proxy TV spawns), they will usually be able to guess where the TV is based on the static effect alone, and thus, where Sadako and her condemn will come from when she ports. Having this knowledge ia fun to play around, and not having this knowledge is creepy and unnerving.
I would imagine the TV aura is more there to help new players out and thats the reason it exists... but I think the aura is overkill and unnecessary tbh and makes her less scary for players still enjoying the spooks. Just the fact you're in static should be enough to at least know you should move. As such the aura to my mind is not really that much of a benefit for anyone reasonably competent... but there is the chance even an experienced player can be distracted or misjudge things. Thus my main issue really is I think it does more to dimish Sadako's presence and fear factor, rather than breaking her gameplay.
In order of priority I'd list: -
- 1 second tapes should be 2 seconds. Allowing tapes to be inserted in her face is just sadge.
- Nearby powered TV auras removed to make her more scary/engaging. This is more fun for survivors in general at all levels I think.
- Condemn stack limit removed if she's still too weak.
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This is good, she is still on the weaker side I think, but it at least looks like her power is in a decent spot and settled now on how its gonna work.
Maybe after some monitoring she gets some more buffs in line with a lot of suggestions here.
1s action I think needs to go.
I guess the condemn cap is fine, they don't want it possible for a survivor to be permanently locked in with condemn, so fair enough. (though tbf... if they are max condemn... why would you lock them in other than for LoLs/pip farming).
I dont think removing nearby TV auras will make her much stronger tbh. The static affecting you is already clue enough and the TVs aren't hard to find/predict. I'd prefer them removed mostly because it just makes Sadako a little spookier, as you're not 100% sure exactly where she might pop out, especially in chase... but gameplay wise I don't think it makes a substantial enough difference really to care vs. competent survivors.
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Sounds like you've got at least 8 downs... aren't you close to winning at this point?
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@VomitMommy said:
I think Iri is fine, because that actually takes a long time to get, just one survivor is nowhere near enough. If you have double Iri, I think you need to find all 4 survivors.
Tombstone piece is kinda broken tho.
JMT Iri also slows you to 4.24 m/s movement, basically slightly faster than T1 Myers... and you can't even lunge at people vaulting windows etc if you want the kill. This is why you almost always run PWYF to get back to 4.84 m/s.
To get to EW3 with both Iris, they both increase stalk from EW2 to EW3 to 300% (or 10 additional stalk each on top of the base 5). This comes out at 25 stalk, and an additional 5 stalk for EW1 to EW2. Overall this is just shy of 3 fully stalked survivors if I'm correct (was a while since I did it, but I'm pretty sure that's right).
Tombstone Piece is utter BS though yes, this should be completely reworked.
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@BlackMindPrime said:
It's crazy that in the forums I see all these "it's fine as is" players but when I play the game solo que I never get these survivors that can loop for days against Xeno and use turrets effectively because the turret "is fine."
A query I would have... should survivors be consistently able to loop the killer for days?
I would hope that would be something I almost never see because it means either the skill gap of the players is absolutely massive, or the Xeno as a killer is pretty damned weak. 45-60 seconds before going down is pretty good, and I can usually get to that kind of time frame if I've been free to set up my turrets where I actually want them.
SoloQ tends to get smashed by Pinhead, Sadako, Freddy and Pig because players can't be bothered to learn how to engage with their power. Not every killer should be beatable with purely mechanics. Strategy and management of killer slowdown systems is an equally valid skill to test.
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Not gonna lie hearing stuff like:
"FFS Kate, only survived less than 30 seconds in chase. This guy is pathetic, how do you lose to him? Oh My God... you suck... just uninstall"
"I'm about you get this flashlight save and ruin this man's whole career... Oooooooh, what a noob! This guy sucks!"
"Hey Spirit... let me spank that ass... oooh she is angry... looks like she wants to tunnel, I wouldn't mind some tunneling myself..."
Might just ruin the atmosphere just a smidge.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
They just need to remove pointless penalty.
There was no reason to nerf weak perk and the buff they gave to this perk never deserved any penalty. It was still niche perk.
Tbh, to my mind the quieter cleanse/boon and chest opening wasn't needed either. That buff is so rare to even come into play, it borders on being completely worthless... (forget borders... it is worthless).
It doesn't even make sense... I have a Calm Spirit... so I open chest and disabled totems quieter because I'm taking my time? That's more something I'd call "Diligence" or "Meticulous" rather than "Calm". Either that or "Apathy". There is a difference between remaining Calm and being nonchalant about the danger you're in.
Version 2.7.0 version of the perk seems perfectly fine, and not even weak... especially with the introduction of several screaming perks since then.
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Used to be quite vocal on this perk, kinda chilled out about it now, but the primary issue I see with it is purely its availability:
It is a Swiss army knife that allows the killer to find a particular target when they need them... it's not so much that the perk itself is the problem, it's nore the nasty play styles it helps support that I think is where it takes the flack, especially on the strongest killers.
- Tunneling is easy because you can always find your target you want to tunnel, and can combine UW with Sloppy Butcher to really make it hard for that person to hide from you and heal. It also bypasses OTR and other methods of blocking aura reading.
- Camping is easier because it reveals anyone coming in to save from afar to help you stall the stage, and blocks survivor aura reading near, so it it makes it hard to coordinate saves without voice comms.
- 3 genning (the normal kind of 3 genning) becomes really strong, because you patrol with significantly less effort, and can make it really rough with perks like Dead Man's Switch.
- Slugging for hatch is basically a guaranteed kill that the survivors cannot prevent in any reasonable fashion (and its already nearly impossible to escape if the killer slugs, UW makes it no point of even trying).
- Other nasty strategies like Head Pop Pig and Devour Hope Demogorgon.
I have over time come to think, the issue isn't so much UW is overpowered... It's more the fact it is especially irritating to play against, as a result of:
- It is more effective vs. Solo players compared to SWF.
- It helps facilitate some particularly nasty methods of play (see above
- It's disproportionately strong on mobile chase killers compared to less mobile killers, which exacerbates all the above issues even further.
It being very unfun and annoying may not be enough to nerf it... but I don't think its unreasonable to rework it.
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Main issue I believe is the names of "Friday the 13th", "Camp Crystal Lake" and "Pamela and Jason Voorhees" are all owned by Victor Miller... basically Miller holds the intellectual copyright to everything in the first film, inclding child Jason.
However adult Jason didn't appear until Friday The 13th Part 2, and hockey mask Jason didn't appear until Friday the 13th Part 3. Victor doesn't have any rights to the rest of the FT13 films where hockey mask killer Jason is, the rights to those films belong to Cunningham.
So the issue seems to be that for adult Jason, you are dealing with Cunningham, but the names Friday the 13th, Camp Crystal Lake, and Pamela Voorhees are tied up with Miller... likely you can't really get more than a butchered halfway house Jason without both signing off on it...
Like never say never... but... getting Jason in DBD is definitely a long shot. π
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Absolutely agree.
Not sure why Xeno is ragged on as much as it is. Xeno was the killer that actually made me start learning how to actually loop, and start using fakes and baits.
I really enjoy using the turrets, getting crafty about how you place them is a lot of fun.
I realised after a while that placing turrets is kinda the same mindset as playing Trapper. You can place them in standard areas, but you dont get much value feom those traps. What you want is turrets to be hard to spot and more importantly a surprise that forces the killer to take a suboptimal choice to give you the advantage.
- Placing them close to the tunnel/next to you on gen is the basic low value usage. Whichever way the killer approaches from, they will spot you and the turret together and be prepared to break it easily as you run, then stick to you in chase.
- Placing them off the side a little away from you is mid tier. It gives you early warning from that direction to pre run (if you know the killer is coming from that direction), and if the Xeno comes from tunnels you can run to safety in the direction of the turret, knowing certain paths are blocked for the Xeno with it stopping to break, so the Xeno will have to go through the turret of take a longer route.
- The strongest turrets are the ones you place in unexpected locations with a specific idea in mind. If you place it along the path where you intend to run, but especially predict where the killer will approach from and use small trees/bushes/obstacles or place it out of view from a particular direction behind junctions in walls or rocks to obscure it as you run past, you can really make it hard on the killer. Locations where the killer will specifically have to look away from you when the turrets activates forces the killer to either ignore and get brokwn out of power, or to try and turn away from you to to break it. If they try and succeed to break it you'll have made quite a lot more difference... but if they missed the turret, and fail to break it in time, you juat got insane value.
Turrets are good enough for what they need to be, and Xeno is solid as a killer. I'd argue one of the fairest and better balanced killers in the roster.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641418#Comment_3641418
Well I'm sorry you think this way of SoloQ players and want to dismiss them as incompetent. I just dont observe this in the majority of cases.
SoloQ is just getting worse and worse to play. It's kind of a delima.
You can load up killer and just stomp everyone thats not a competetive SWF, and there was little challenge. Feel pretty terrible afterwards and... yay horray I guess?
Or you can load up SoloQ survivor and watch the usual tunnel/camp of your weakest teammate (and now grim embroke) strategy that killer mains seem to justify "because SWF destroys me otherwise". And then just laugh. ***
***This I think is the most interesting issue as you pointed out that you believe Solo's are just unwilling to learn, but then I see countless posts justifying tunneling out one survivor as quickly as possible.
Like which is it? Survivors are so bad at the game but then apparentely need to be tunneled/camped the entire match?
(Im not specifically saying you said you support tunneling one out ASAP I am just observing both these arguments being said, which contradict each other. You wouldnt need to tunnel one out ASAP if they were so unwilling to learn/bad)
Another contradiction I see is a buff like billy come into play. He is now the second strongest killer in the game, its just not where we should be placing killers in power currently. The community has been sick of blight for, as long as I have played this game honestly, and now here we are making a killer stronger than him? Why?
And just to restate for people that are posting "I dont like the overheat mechanic..."
oni probably doesnt like not having his power as well
Bubba doesnt like running out of chainsaw charges
Plague doesnt like running out of red puke
Meyers doesnt like running out of t3
Ghostface doesnt like running out of reveal
There was a reason he had overheat, and without it he just spams his one shot. Which with all of the current changes, in my opinion, is just unfair to play against.
Just to ensure I'm don't come across as completely ignorant, I am speaking from the perspective of someone who primarily plays SoloQ.
I bring up the unwillingness to learn because the kill rates of Pig, Sadako and Pinhead are high, despite those killers struggling mightily against good survivors. I've noticed the same thing both as a SoloQ survivor and a killer, there are survivors who just don't do what they should be doing to win vs. these killers (and its not even thatbhard to understand). Then the way PTB Sadako got butchered, despite being weak, and the games by players like One Pump Willy showing people blatantly ignoring TVs, just screams of people just not bothering to read and/or act upon her damn power, I'm not pulling the accusation out of my backside. I see it a lot... and tbh I tend to get far more irritated with my solo q teammates than anything the killer is doing.
Tunneling is a strategy that bores me, and I don't advocate for doing it. However it IS the most effective way to winThe thing is this prevailing attitude of "poor SoloQ" I don't believe is helpful or even reasonable. The reality is that whoever takes the strongest stuff tends to win, and survivors are just as capable of playing cheaply as the killer is. SoloQ survivors can do very well running something like Sprint Burst, Off The Record, Deja Vu, We'll Make It combined with a strong toolbox and medkits.
The thing is whichever side you play on, if you go hard in the paint every game, you will have to keep going hard in the paint and will go up against opponents who do the same. I play off meta without an exhaustion perk when I play survivor, with the notion that if you play full meta, you'll always have to play full meta. As a result I don't that often go up against hard tunneling killers and nasty meta builds.
Usually I encounter these things I play with my sweatier swf friends, and despite them having several multiples of hours more than me, they still don't understand the killer powers, and get annoyed vs. certain killers than really are mot that hard to counter with a little investigation. I love them, but their ignorance is dumbfounding.