UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662160#Comment_3662160
I think occasionaly forcing Survivors of Boxes is totally fine. But outright making sure that they cannot do Boxes while using Tampered Timer, a Scream-Build and Crate of Gears is not really fine. Sure, it is a strategy, but it is not really playing Pig in the way how she was intended.
And there is evidence that she was intended to use her Power as Slowdown, the Devs went out of their way to make Headtraps not activate once all Gens are done, because you are supposed to use them during the game and not just in Endgame for Headpops.
And I think the general way of powers like this is the correct way. Same applies to Sadako - something which can kill Survivors before they were hooked twice should not be overly lethal. It should be a way to slow down the game and it should also kill the Survivor if they ignore it. But it should not result in consistent Kills.
I totally agree, which is why as a collective of Pig mains we put through suggestions for nerfing her RBTs that did that. Get rid of the scream problem, and limit the Pigs ability to interrupt timers by forcing her to actually chase survivors off boxes herself and pause their timer.
Our concern with the 30s increase and Jigsaw Box changes wasn't that we felt the motivation for doing so was wrong, it's the severe cramping of Pig's ability to gauge the survivors time and predict their movements, as well as decreasing the chance of capitalising on mistakes brought on by that limited time. You don't ever push survivors off a box with this change, because there is literally no point in doing it (it was already something not worth doing on the current 150s RBTs as Scorpionz points out). The 12-18s you take off the survivor, will never be worth the time it costs you as the Pig to secure a down.
The hill I will die on from all of this, is the current changes remove any nuance of Jigsaw box pressure, while also not addressing the actual problem of a Pig tunneling a survivor for head pops with H:FtD and UW. Neither the 30s increase, or the aura removal address those problems. Our suggested changes do, while still allowing for the ability to put a head trapped survivor in a difficult position if we guess/are mindful of their box search route/progress while chasing other survivors.
https://m.twitch.tv/videos/2056948885If you check this game from Knightlight's perspective at 5:00:00, there is a great example of using Jigsaw box pressure without tunneling.
The Pig here (who I won't namedrop) understood between the survivor who was hooked, the survivor they had headtrapped, the survivor they had down, and Knightlight looking for the save, that time was completely on their side. They had all the cards, and Knightlight missed it, forcing the Thalita to make a risky decision, costing her life, and the survivors the game. This not a low level game... and a great example of really good, non tunnel head trap pressure.
You add 30s to the timers, and this scenario simply would never happen...
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662130#Comment_3662130
Yep. Scorpionz has also said that the Nerf to the RBTs does not matter and if someone thinks it matters, they are the problem.
But hey, Pig Main with 11k hours on the game (and most of them on Pig). Surely he does not know what he is talking about.
Interesting to see Scorpionz opinion on that, he was one of the main people I learned Pig from. I studied his guides a lot, and he regularly talks about how you almost always want to ignore survivors with a head trap, he was always very clear on that point. There are situations you don't, such as if they run into you, or they're searching near you while your in chase, but more often you ignore a survivor with a trap, because they are not doing gens.
https://youtu.be/-ZLb3wbc-EQ?si=1crhQ9vcK9PxvfwxThis guide was one where he talks about Pig traps in such a manner (9:45 - 14:19), it's dated now, but you'll notice that he makes the point you can build for an end game Pig, that is super high risk, but also high reward. This is encouraging thinking of looking at alternative ways of using your head traps, but also acknowledges this is not how you play Pig optimally, which is largely our point.
The addition of scream builds via Hex: Face the Darkness and Ultimate Weapon has made this less true, she now CAN force head pops viably, and that is what we aim to correct.
If you remove scream builds from the equation, this is the general consensus of Pig play. If you chase a survivor off Jigsaw boxes you aren't using your time effectively, but the implied point is that if the survivor gives you an opportunity, you take it. You don't have mobility on the Pig, so if you have a chance for a quick down you take it. You see this in his own game footage in this section against David.
The point we keep making is those opportunities will be rarer or even non existent to come by, if the survivor isn’t pressured on a time crunch... and more importantly, the current changes do NOT address the problematic play style.
I love Scorpionz, and I don't at all claim to know better than him, but considering there are a number of Pig mains I know who use a similar play style to him, being mindful of Jigsaw Boxes and survivor searching patterns if you're paying attention can absolutely reward you with survivor mistakes.
E.g. knowing which way the headtrapped survivor went off hook to get their traps off, you can intuit where that survivor will likely end up when they get to search 3 or 4. If you chase another survivor who ends up heading that same direction, this can result in pressure by proximity and scoring another down, or dare I say it, a head pop. Though you shouldn't bank on it, cause they may get their trap off on box 1 or 2.
Like we've kept saying, you don't want to play for head pops, but you do want to keep this more nuanced part of her RBT pressure in mind if you can. I can't do it cause I suck, but I have seen Pigs who do, and to me it's very impressive to see. This isn't playing scummy, it's being mindful of where you can apply pressure, and displaying a high level of tactical awareness, the nuance of which I do feel doesn't benefit the game to remove.
If I've said anything demonstrably false, do please correct me.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662004#Comment_3662004
you know... you both say "with the ambush buff a nerf to compensate is in order" or something like that...
but why? she could have gotten the buffs with no nerfs and it would have been perfectly justified. hell she could have got buffs to the rbt aswell. alongside a nerf that actually deals with the scream builds ofc.
Not gonna lie, there is an element of tact there. There is a fair argument that a nerf might be needed for her scream builds, but other than that we didn't want any nerfs at all.
However if you ask for buffs and only buffs, you'll be ignored (look at what happened to Trickster). You have to remember the problem for BHVR is that Pig performs disproportionately better in low MMR, similar to Pinhead, which makes up a large bulk of the playerbase.
Thus if you only have the ambush buffed, this problem in low MMR gets worse, and when you have not a insignificant number of players saying "this change is fine, it doesn't reduce the slowdown at all, and it stops tunneling Pigs", which is an understable, yet highly damaging misunderstanding and downplaying of her power, you've got to ensure you're taking others points on board and you present your argument in good faith.
If the Pig has to be nerfed, we would much rather it be on our terms than the terms of the people who don't like Pig.
...I guess we'll see if it works 😅
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@Sngfun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661974#Comment_3661974
I guess I'll have to be patient, thanks for the answer and trivia btw!
RadiantHero recorded a bunch here:
@radiantHero23 said:
PIG FEEDBACK PTB 7.6.0 - A lengthy analysis of the changes to my favourite Killer - by a 2200h+ Pig main
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NC1EKSVK2MFW/20240220183446-1.jpg
(shes still missing her traps in the lobby guys.... Pls fix this)
This is the killer i put by far the most time in while playing DBD. Amanda has kept me playing for almost 4 years now. If not for her, i would very likely not be playing anymore. This killer means a lot to me and any changes to her kit are taken extremely serious. At this point i have over 2200 hours of experience on this one killer alone and faced a wide variety of players in public matches. I have mastered almost all parts of her kit and am here to share my thought on these changes that are heading towards our favourite BOOP-girl. To do this, i recorded a ton of matches i played on PTB and am happy to share them with you. Please remember that these matches are on PTB, where people are usually not glued to gens.
Chase Piggy STRONK!
This is where the focus of these changes lies on. Therefore, in the following videos, only focus on the ambush and the chases. The outcome of the match is of lesser importancem out of the reasons I stated above.
To start off, here is a matchc i recently had on Ironworks of misery. It very much showcases the Pigs problems in chase that are currently present on the live servers and have been for the past couple of years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdPrfrVX1zQ
As you can see, for most of the match i struggle against survivors pre dropping pallets. I barely get to use the stealth because it takes way too much time to crouch around the map. All of this locks me into playing m1 killer for the majority of the match. My power therefore lies almost exclusivly in the reverse bear trap i can dish out.
This patch tries to help with this by:
- Increasing Ambush attack duration to 2.3 seconds (was 2).
- Decreasing Ambush attack successful hit cooldown to 2.7 seconds (was 3).
- Decreasing Ambush attack miss cooldown to 1.5 seconds (was 2).
- Increasing The Pig's movement speed while crouched to 3.8 m/s (was 3.6).
- Decreasing the time it takes for The Pig to crouch to 1 second (was 1.3).
- Increased the amount of Bloodpoints earned for setting a Reverse Bear Trap to 1000 BP (was 500).
- Increased the amount of Bloodpoints earned for Ambush Dash hits to 850 BP (was 500).
First, you can see these basekit changed for yourself in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pop9Za7HTjk
I have to apologize for the delayed recording, however, i do think the changes in her basekit are visible enough.
Simply put: all of them are decent. Not game changing, but decent. Most of her addons that helped with chase got partially included in her base kit (Combat straps (funny how this has now happened twice), Johns medical file, Shattered syringe and Workshop grease) with the exception of the longer ambush duration, which is not present on any of her current addons. The changes help against stronger loops but DO NOT help against survivors pre dropping pallets or simply leaving the loop at the glimpse of Amanda starting to crouch. The time doesnt add up. The ony aspect i found to be a huge change are the BP changes. I got the category maxed out incredibly fast. Maybe too fast. Encouraging the use of her power through BP however, is not a good idea. Being able to get a it with the power should be the incentive to use the power. More BP is nice, but not what she needs to perform better.
A buff here, a nerf there
Pig is currently the killer with the strongest slowdown in the game. This is due to her strongest part of the kit. The infamous reverse bear trap. Once a survivor is downed (important!), the Pig puts reverse bear traps on their head, that when activated need an arbitrary number of searches on Jigsaw boxes to be removed. If not removed until the timer runns out, the survivor is immediately killed by the device. Any other killer with a power this strong on top of their chase capabilites would very much outperform by a mile. Pig however is a special cookie. Her chase is bad, therefore her secondary ability is very strong. If the chase is buffed, the traps have to be nerfed. Logical. Necessary. This is what happened:
- Increased the Reverse Bear Trap's timer to 180 seconds (was 150).
- Removed The Pig's ability to see Jigsaw Boxes.
I heavily disagree with these changes out of a variety of reasons. First, these changes are directly to her base kit, so no addons to increase her chase or the lethality of the traps need to be taken into account here. As mentioned before, the buffs are decent, but do not help out the Pig in te scenarios, where she needs help the most. The buffs will NOT come into play every match. These changes to the traps however, will DEFINITELY COME INTO PLAY EVERY MATCH. The nerfs are too severe for the buffs that are supposed to compensate for it. Removing the aura is just taking quality of life away from her. Boxes can be memorized. This just hurts her where she doesnt need it. 30 seconds more on traps make them a lot less lethal, while Amanda herself is not becoming a lot more lethal. Survivors with 30 second have too much room for mistake.
- A survivor with one search has 180 seconds to go up to and check one box.
- A survivor with two searches has 90 seconds to go up to and check one box each.
- A survivor with three searches has 60 seconds to go up to and check one box each.
- A survivor with two searches has 45 seconds to go up to and check one box each.
This makes even the infamous 4 search a walk in thge park. Her power should not be nerfed this much without PROPER compensation. Very bad change.
Addons - where she finally shines
I have excessively tested all the adodns that changed and even some new playstyles.
Lets start off with the addon that now needs heavy changes, assuming that these changes go live the way they are (i heavily discourage this happening)
Amanda´s secret
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KXQJZY4QV3OF/20240220202917-1.jpg
This addon simply got its awful effect removed, because it is now implemented into her base kit. One could say that it got buffed, I say it remained the same. However, the other addons have gotten stronger with her traps becoming weaker. This addon now competes with the amazing purple addons crate of gears, tempered timer and Jigsaw´s sketch. 3 addons with immensly strong effects compared to Amandas secret´s redundant information. This addon gives the Pig information, when she doesnt need it. A survivor will remove the trap usually under two circumstances. The Pig being around or the Pig not being around.
- Case one: the Pig is around --> You as the Pig are right there next to the survivor. You dont need aura on something that is right in front of you.
- Case two: the Pig is not around --> You dont need info on a survivor that is cross map. In case you memorized their movement, this info becomes completely redundant.
- Last but not least: the Pig want to traps to remain on the survivors head. This addon rewards you with redundant information in case the Pig player fails to do this. I dont need to go into why this is bad.
This addon either needs a complete rework or heavy buffs. Right now it is worse than many of the lower rarity addons that i will get into next.
For this, i give you a wide variety of matches, where you can see the addons working for yourself.
Workshop grease and Shattered syringe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE1u8RYK5yA
(why are there two pallets on one tile...)
Workshop grease and Johns medical file
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Itq51MtSqA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_tyjvlKdA
Combat straps and Johns medical file
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BvNWOeUhps
Last will and workshop grease
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNKVVsocpkA
Johns medical file and Amanda´s letter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZcjvqH0_K0
The last chase in this match is a really good example of why the Pig still struggles a lot in chase, even with these buffs.
In all these matches, please always take into consideration, that the survivor could also pre-drop the pallet or leave the loop. Only some addon combinations are strong enough to deal with shift w and no addon combination is strong enough to deal with pre dropping pallets.
Conclusion - addons
Im glad that Johns medical file did not get nerfed to compensate for the basekit buff. This addon is now incredibly valuable and makes the Pig crouch faster than a survivor sprints. Well done!
The other addons feel almost necessary to make the Pig REALLY play around the ambush at loops. The basekit buffs are not enough in most situations. If the addons are in play, the Pig can become a real threat at many loops if played correctly. Pre dropping forces the Pig back into m1 - mode. Neither the addons or the basekit buffs help in these scenarios.
Amandas secret now needs heavy changes more than ever. These yellow and brown addons outperform it by a mile.
"Hey Bob, they nerfed the Pig again..."
In the patch notes and the livestream from a while ago, these changes are called a buff. After excessive testing, im certain, that this is not true.
The Pigs power is overall worse than before. Not by a lot, but by a considerable amount to call it a nerf. The buff to the basekit is not enough to warrant these kind of nerfs. On top of this, the nerfs do not tackle the problems, that many people currently have with her. This being the infamous screaming-Pig-build.
However, with buffs to her chase, nerfs to her traps have to be made. Therefore my suggestions to make her more healthy and nerf her in the correct way:
- survivors cannot die to the timer running out while searching a jigsaw box
- survivors are not interrupted by screaming while searching a jigsaw box
These changes make her lethality a bit worse without taking away the time management and decisionmaking, that the traps force survivors to do. Out of experience, i can say, that a lot of survivors that actually die to traps, die while searching a box. If they didnt manage their time correctly, or the Pig was successful, the survivor will die immediately upon finishing the search with these changes. This also forces the Pig into action, when a survivor searches a box. Amanda cannot just crouch towards them. To interrupt the box, she has to make a move. This leads to the next nerf. Screaming should not interrupt searching. Only the Pig should be able to do that. This is a heavily disliked playstyle, that could go with this patch.
Please reconsider this feedback. I put a lot of thought into it.
Now i give the ball to my fellow BOOP enthusiasts, that are as, and even more experienced than i am.
@UndeddJester , @Nun_So_Vile , @totallynotamegmain , @JPLongstreet , @AbsolutGrndZer0 and all you other Pig fans out there. Share your thoughts.
I for myself do not want to see the PTB - nerfs go into the live version. Something else has to be done. The buffs are a good start and are very welcome.
-radiantHero
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661914#Comment_3661914
I was writing a long reply because I had a lot of issues with your comment, but I think instead of going into a long winded explanation point by point it would be more productive to quickly summarize:
I'm not talking about seasonal, I'm talking about single-run, "buy from monday to friday or miss it forever" stuff and how unfair it is for people that were not playing at the time of the offer. Seasonal items just barely have a pass.
I didn't mention mental illnesses, but capitalism exploiting fully researched human flaws to maximize profit, which in my eyes goes past what's morally acceptable.
Cheating does put the responsability on the cheater as the other side is unaware of relationship status, and is in no way comparable to, again, businesses exploiting human design flaws to maximize profit (this is closer to scammers targeting tourists for not knowing any better and being easier to exploit)
And finally, I find your reply terribly selfish. As a society we should strive to protect each other, not predate on other peoples' weaknesses. That's why we make laws and why, as an example, stealing is illegal. Otherwise you'd be here saying that "If you don't want to get your stuff stolen, just take responsability and buy a better security system??".
I insist. I have plenty of limited run items in many different games, but I enjoy them in spite of being scarce, not because of it. I'd happily trade the limited availability of all my limited cosmetics so everyone could buy whatever they want whenever they want it.
You call it selfish, I call it respecting other people enough and trusting them to be responsible for their own decisions and their own lives. You don't help people to grow by treating them like children and not allowing them to have their own agency. You let people make their own decisions in life, and having the freedom to make those decisions also comes with the responsibility for their own actions.
Even if someone is a drug addict, no amount of "protection" is going to stop them from buying drugs if that is what they want to do. You can try and wrap them in a safety blanket all you want, or take their agency from them, but you aren't going to always be there to police that person's life. The only way they overcome that problem is if they face and resolve that issue in themselves. Its undeniably extremely difficult, especially if they still have places they can acquire it from, but THEY are the only person who can solve that problem.
Now to a more relevant point. You cannot equate stealing to offering a legitimate product to someone for them to buy. That is not the same thing and you know it. Any transaction is mutually agreed by both parties at the point of sale.
If someone is genuinely so bent out of shape because they can't own a particular cosmetic is a video game, that is a significant problem that they need to deal with. You don't always get everything you want in life. Anything worth having requires sacrifice and hard work to attain, and even then, you may still fall short. People do this already with things like spending all the money earn collecting comic books, classic video games, memorabilia, or whatever their obsession is. Those things actually are finite in nature, and can end up with people spending ridiculous money, more than they can realistically afford to attain. That is not 'FOMO manipulating them', it is an understanding from that person that they are willing to make that sacrifice for their passion.
Naturally in that scenario it is entirely possible you never attain what you desire. That is life, you are not entitled to anything, and you shouldn't go through life expecting to get whatever you want just because you want it. It is called being mature.
Now if someone can't stop themself from buying cosmetics in a video game whether they want it or not, just because it's a limited time offer, and forgo meals in order to buy it, they have a significant issue that they have to deal with. The problem is not a result of the fact limited time offers exist, its that they cannot manage their own inhibitions. Again you can't rely on a friend to put a parental lock on it or something, because anyone motivated to do it will find ways around it.
No one can resolve this for them, and even if they can block their FOMO purchases, that problem will manifest itself in one aspect of their life or another. I advocate for and believe people can and should strive to grow and overcome issues such as that. To become mature and capable individuals who don't give into things like marketing manipulation tactics as a skill for life, rather than trying to keep them in a protective bubble, never growing and allowing themselves to be easily led by greed, envy and impulse.
However if you wanna label me as selfish, go ahead, I don’t care.
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661700#Comment_3661700
... isn't this victim blaming? They create a predatory system based on false scarcity and when people dislike it your reply is "Well, don't be human 😂😂😂 Stop having wants and needs. Just because you like a cosmetic doesn't mean you should have it 😋😊😉😆 Next time don't stop playing the game? Or discover it earlier! 🤔😘🤗🙂"
Having wants and needs is not the same as having no self control. You can't call yourself a victim for buying/doing something that was offered in good faith and mutually agreed.
Hypothetical: You go on a night out, have a bit too much to drink, an attractive lass starts flirting with you, one thing leads to another and you end up cheating on your girlfriend.
You were drunk, you have actual reasons why your judgement might be impaired, and you acted on your human impulses. Yet you are, and should still be, held accountable for your actions.
Too many people in our world today don't want to accept responsibility for their own actions, and are all too ready to place the blame on someone else. If you have a condition, such as addiction, you might have a very valid reason for having that addiction, and its unfortunate you have that struggle. However that doesn't now act as an excuse for your behaviour, and doesn't give you a free license to blame others for your problems. It is your responsibility to manage that condition.
A seasonal skin is not in the same camp as a loot box. It is there to celebrate the season. I don't think you can really accuse a company of exploiting their customers to buying a product, when that product comes back every year.
Now there have been cosmetics that have been limited edition that haven't come back. These have more credit to saying they are exploiting FOMO. I don't see a problem with these either, because I understand that all of this online purchasing is stuff we don't actually own anyway. It is ultimately a waste of money. However I buy those cosmetics because want something cool and unique for my characters, and because I like to support game developers for games I like.
Why people have to assume it is a tactic of exploiting people with a hoarder mental illness, and not a service provided to people like me who just want to support the developer, I don't know... but its up to you how you want to look at FOMO I guess.
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@Asterin said:
It's the only killer achivement i'm missing and i just can't seem to progress. Survivors are not close enough together for me to slam one into another, whenever i catch someone the others have already made distance.
Anything that let's you sneak up on and find pairs of survivors like Trail of Torment, Discordance, Nurse's Calling are good shouts.
You'll also be able to get it when survivors try to unhook and body block to gates during end game, so End Game builds with No Way Out are good for it as well to ensure you have someone on hook.
If you get really fed up with it you can go for max hooks, get 10 and go friendly then hit them while they're healing on gates, but it's not as bad to go for as it seems with normal play.
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Personally I think if the change is here to stay, the logic of 'Play With Your Food' and 'Save The Best For Last' needs to be updated to be in line with what counts as a "special attack".
Yes I am absolute going to twist my language in BS ways to satisfy the conditions for these changes 😁
If we define our terms: -
- An "Attack" is "an aggressive and violent act against a person or place"
- "Aggressive" means "ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggresion."
- "Violent" means "using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something".
As a result, there are a few cases where the "violent" part of the special attack is not satisfied, as any "attack" needs to have the capacity to harm or injure using physical force. Any action that doesn't satisfy these definitions can not considered an "attack" for PWYF and STBFL purposes. With this in mind, the changes I would make are: -
- Deathslinger - Breaking the chain when spearing a survivor should lose a stack instead of just hitting the spear. The intent of the spear is to stop a survivors movement and reel a survivor in, it is the swinging a basic attack or breaking the chain where the intent to injure or harm comes in. This allows hitting a body blocking obsession and wanting to keep STBFL/PWYF stack can be preserved by simply swings early and canceling the reel.
- Trickster - Only damaging a survivor with a knife should count as losing a STBFL/PWYF stack. Each knife up to the last is building up laceration stacks to allow for a injure attempt with a knife or zone for an m1... these "attacks" up to the last do not exert a physical force capable of harming or damaging a survivor.... and lets be real, every knife losing 2 stacks is just silly.
- Nemesis - Only hitting a survivor who is already infected should count as losing a STBFL/PWYF stack. Similar logic, slathering someone up with the T-Virus infection is not capable of injuring a survivor, so doesn't satisfy our terms. His early game is already slow, he doesn't need his end game potential reducing too.
- Pinhead - Only Engineer's Fang chains should lose a PWYF/STBFL stack, regular chains should not. Once again the standard Pinhead chains do not have the capacity to injure a survivor, only when using Engineer's Fang do they satisfy our terms.
- Artist - Swarming a survivor should not count as losing a PWYF/STBFL stack. Crows swarming a survivor is not a physical force, only when the crows actually attack via a second hit, or when striking from close range, should a stack be lost.
- Unknown - Marking a survivor should not count as losing a PWYF/STBFL stack. Marking a survivor is not a phsyical force, only when a second hit with the ability to hurt or damage can this be considered an "attack".
Exceptions that remain exceptions by these defintions: -
- Trapper - Traps. Setting a trap is not an aggressive action inherently. Traps are indescriminate, even to the point of affecting the Trapper himself, thus, this cannot be construed as an aggressive action against a person.
- Plague - Vile Purge. Vomitting on someone to spread her plague is not physical force, thus still satisfies our definition. Corrupt Purge on the other hand is most certainly inflicting physical force to injure a survivor.
These changes would be logically consistent, with absolutely no squinting and sideways head tilting required whatsoever 😏😏😏😏
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Not everyone shares the same opinion on FOMO, its a very divisive subject. It's the same thing as there are people who hate Battle Passes or Premium Currency just on principle, whether or not there is actually a genuine reason to.
An equally valid interpretation of seasonal content is it is simply tied to the celebration of that particular season, to give people a reason to look forward to that season, and market towards that excitement, but alternatively you look at through the lens of FOMO. The truth is probably not a black or white answer regardless, but any claims people make is speculation either way.
The debate of FOMO is a similar debate to Alcoholism. How much corporate responsibility is there vs. Self responsibility, and should everyone else, who are able to appropriately assess value and control their inhibitions have something they like taken away from them for the sake of a minority who lack the capacity to manage their conditions, and how much blame should be impartedon that minority for that inability?
Depends on who you are and your own life experiences where you fall on the subject.
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I like a number of your ideas here. I've talked about bringing back Old Freddy before, but if I were to look at changing current Freddy, the things I don't personally like about him are: -
- Missing skillchecks wakes a survivor up. Never liked this idea on either version of Freddy, it's RNG dependent and even rewards a player for screwing up. Taking this add-on makes him undeniably stronger from the get go, and makes it harder for Survivors to escape the dream... I think I'd just take the missed skillchecks at basekit, and leave the Iri as starting in the dream.
- Can't use both Snares and Pallets. The Pallet override however might be a little nuts... considering it basically nopes a pallet from a survivor AND can be use in conjunction with a dream snare. I wouldn't go through with this change, however having access to both at base, especially as survivors will be asleep more often, would be nice.
- Survivors see the timer at the start. They immediately know it's Freddy just by HUD alone, which removes any and all surprise factor he might have. Honestly I'd prefer it if survivors couldn't see their sleep timer at all, so at least falling asleep into the dreams feels like... falling asleep into the dream. I'd actually prefer maybe the last 20s would start applying some kind of screen effect at random intervals to indicate you're falling asleep, and you start seeing wake up clock aura intermittently.
- The timer is the same at all times. 60s standard every time... in conjunction with seeing the timer means that at the start of the game, everyone falls asleep at exactly the same time, which just irks me. I'd like to the timer increased to 80s, but conspicious actions increase the timer charge rate by 50%. (Working on a generator means you fall asleep in 50s).
With the removal of the sleep timer from the HUD, the inability to wake up without skill checks and now having expanded uses of his power, the intermittent dream transitioning to add to the immersion, and the now staggered survivor falling asleep timer, it'd make him a little more thematically satisyfing, and a little better to play.
Would also be nice to see which way you'll be facing when you teleport to Gens, rather than popping there blindly and beng disorientated for half a second while you get your bearings.
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Doesn't this mean the achievements are effectively bugged on a brand new account? I'd report this as bug to be fixed.
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@xEa said:
No Mither is objectivly speaking the worst perk in the game.
I'm not sure I agree, it does have synergies and niche useful things about it... it's just the penalty for it is extremely high for those niche uses. E.g.
- Resilience means you always vault fast and get action bonuses.
- Can't be slugged, and if you have a buddy you can go down at pallets with flip flop and power struggle, while also picking yourself up at will.
- Always allows you to have access to perks like Dead Hard and the heal effect of MFT.
It's definitely a perk that makes things harder, but a really skilled player can get value out of it...
Now something like Poised on the other hand is impossible to get any use out of, no matter how good you are.
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When we asked for buffs to the Pig... was not expecting this kinda of out of the box thinking...
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@MagicDragon said:
As well as the skill checks, it's actually better in terms of raw speed to bring the yellow repair speed addon instead of the brown charges addon, for the commodious toolbox specifically. For the engineer's, double charges always wins out. here's the math:
-Engineer's, wire, swivel: 28/2.3 + 62 = 74.174... (with streetwise: 35/2.3 + 55 = 70.217...)
-Commodious, 2 charge add ons: 52/1.5 + 38 = 72.666... (with streetwise: 55/1.8 + 35 = 68.333...)
-Engineer's, 2 charge add ons: 36/2 + 54 = 72 (with streetwise: 45/2 + 45 = 67.5)
-Commodious, wire, swivel: 44/1.8 + 46 = 70.444... (with streetwise: 55/1.8 + 35 = 65.555...)
Cheers lad! Another good insight! ^^
@Seraphor said:
This shouldn't really be a question. Commodious should probably be nerfed to 24 charges so that Engineer's is the clear winner, being a rarity higher.
It does seem pretty backwards.
I was gonna be a little more conservative and say 28... which leaves Commodius+W+S at 72.222s, so it is just beaten out by Engineer+2Charges, and then loses on eveything else... but especially with the number of survivors who seem to be frustrated with things at the moment, i feel throwing up a call to new Commodius might be a little poorly received... even if it is only 1.8s :D
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@MalekithHatesSnow said:
The killer doesn't even need to camp or tunnel my teammates will just throw for absolutely no reason just because they feel like it this killer didn't camp or tunnel it was like a minute into the game at 5 gens so no this isn't a killer problem that's just a scapegoat if you find more than half the killer roster "boring" enough that you'll just dc or self sacrifice on hook then maybe its time to find something different to play
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Y6A0M1Y3BUQR/20240223160851-1.jpg
This is my experience.
I've played Solo with my own scrubby abilities, I've played with lower level friends, I've played with some pretty insanely good survivors againat some well known streamers, who frankly I'm surprised allow me to play with them...
Across all of them I see camping/tunneling in... maybe 1 in every 4 games? Even of those, there are typically 70% of those cases where I'd consider it pretty justified that the killer uses that tactic, due to the game slipping away rapidly from them, or them having to take an obviously worthwhile option not to.
It is actually quite rare that I see a hard tunnel/camp at 5 gens. It happens on occassion sure, but it's a very very far cry from being every game.
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Now that stress of that is over, can post something a little more fun.
I never really formalised my application to the Pig Pen... I did have a plan for that day but its still in the works, and all of this forced my hand early xD
So instead, if anyone is bored/wants a laugh, I wanted to share a game I had today as one of the last I will see of our lady in her current form... I was using a quirky little build I made literally to just get obsession kills for challenges. I literally just threw on the cheapest and most plentiful brown add-ons I had cause I'm tight. 🤣
It was actually kinda decent vs. our true one enemy... pallets... I've included my thought processes in the description with time stamps 😅
https://youtu.be/Gb3EZW4rIq0?si=UvgrvJR0_TDGJJCkAre my credentials satisfactory for an aspiring Pig player? Do be brutal, I've already spotted several things I'm kicking myself for 🤣
Ps: Also hello box aura in my splash... I do hope to see you again... 🥺
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
Had this conversation in a Discord today.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3SG1XON6Q4SJ/angry-1.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7D7BPN68V9UD/angry-2.jpg
My last comment that I did not screenshot was that we should end this discussion before I end up saying something I regret.
I don't know if he didn't realize that I am one of the Pig mains behind that post when he called US scummy (my nickname is not Absolugrndzer0, briefly changed it to get the screenshots) but it made be very angry as you can see by the reacts. Especially since the worst thing a Pig player could do is exploiting screams to guarantee at least 3 head pops. I will never do this even for testing purposes, but I'm confident I could consistently pull it off with Video Tape, Crate of Gears then Hex: Face the Darkness, Sloppy Butcher, Franklin's Demise, and Lethal Pursuer. Soon as the game starts, beeline for the nearest survivor, injure them, the go camp the totem. Nobody is going to be able to heal the survivor that is injured, even if they had a medkit, it's unlikely it will have a full heal left by the time they manage to pick it up, especially with Sloppy. So at best THAT survivor can get their trap off, do a generator... the others? Not happening. But this could easily be fixed by making screams not be as terrible as they currently are to those with traps.
Well done keeping your composure. It's really annoying being constantly mischaracterised like that. I had to send a private apology to Seraphor the other day, as even if I don't agree, Seraphor is always polite, well argued and constructive. I unfortunately took out my frustration on them and was rude and reductive to one of their posts as a result of seeing my own (and some of yours guys posts) misquoted, the meaning changed and then used to demean/ridicule. It happened to be my response to them was at boiling point and I ended up being rather uncivil... to my regret.
What I like especially is the add on "and make it worse". It suggests they didn't bother reading it really, just skimmed.
Like how on earth does allowing a survivor to hold a box attempt even when on max blink, and making it so the Pig cannot interrupt you from a distance to maintain headtrap pressure "making it worse"?
What gets me, is what exactly is the "problem" and what do they think 30s and no box auras is gonna do to fix it exactly? I can still follow the survivor manually, I have eyes. I even have a nice FOV slider to make sure I can crouch at a distance and watch all escape routes, then let H:FtD and UW do a lot of my work for me....
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@bjorksnas said:
Skillchecks
Ahhhh, ofc, the 40% skillcheck chance! That's what I was missing. Cheers lad! 😁
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Started playing since May 2023, I can confirm as someone who has acquired all the content and is nearly at the point of getting everyone p3... it takes a little over 1000 hours...
Enough time to no longer be considered a total newb at least 😅
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Narsty... 9...
Only loses a point cause I bloody hate getting demolished by Devour Hope xD
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Edit: Loving the "Randoms you'd likely encounter at a Download festival" vibe in this thread 😅
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@Sylence187 @BugReporterOnly @solarjin1 @ShyPirate @JanesWagon @BubMickey07
A partial workaround that seems to help in the meantime is set what you want, then modify something in the Options/Settings (I use the FOV setting under BETA).
That seems to force an update to the servers (you see the red claw symbol appear), then you can then keep hitting back and quit the game back to the game startup splash and reload it again to confirm it's saved.
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I always seem to get bad luck vs. Nemesis'... I dunno what it is, and I actually like facing him, but for some reason that guy always has Lethal Pursuer, and always guns for my posterior every time 😳
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658238#Comment_3658238
...We live.. in a SAWciety...🤣. Thanks, I hate it. Now it'll be stuck in my head.
I gotta stop looking at this or i'll want to edit more,. Great work everyone. I'm ready to spread the word! Where do we start???
If we're happy, maybe wait for @radiantHero23 to sign off, then we just post I suppose...
I was tempted to comission C3 Tooth to draw a frustrated/sad Amanda gesturing to a broken RBT on a table while looking up at the Entity with the caption:
Entity : "I have tried to help you, Amanda."
Amanda : "Then help me! Fix me! Fix me m-----f-----! I'm standing right here!"
However they're based in Vietnam apparently and I can't find what comission service they're using in a timely manner ^^
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
Edit below.
Her Chase
First of all, BHVR, we are a humble group of Pig players who want to thank you for turning attention to our Killer. We would like to go on the record as saying we believe your intent for the Pig is coming from the correct place. Improving her chase is a welcome improvement many of us have been eagerly waiting for, and we certainly approve of these changes to her crouch speed, crouch movement speed, and ambush changes. These changes have made noticeable improvements in her performance at a variety of loops, like the car loop tile on the Garden of Joy map, going around shorter loops around tiles, going around rubble & objects into straightaways, and expanding on the number of tiles she can catch survivors on in general.
However, largely what this buff does not address is that she is plagued by the same issues as before, where using any pre-dropping, any semi-decent pallet, and holding W to run away as she attempts to ambush, will still beat her. These same tiles and strategies lead to her buffs becoming negligible in action because crouching makes her lose distance since the survivor simply drops the pallet and runs away to gain more distance, ergo she is forced out of her killer ability. This makes her ambush and crouch buffs minimized and unreliable to use across a variety of similar situations. This is apparent on even her strongest maps for stealth/ambushing like Midwich. We do not think these changes will bring about the intended outcome they provide a solution for in their current state.
We would appreciate more buffs in this department. We know you cannot make her unreasonably strong, so we reasonably encourage you to take into close consideration the slowdown brought on by her Reverse Bear Traps (RBTs). Promoting unfun playstyles is the last thing we ask for, but it is apparent that these initial number buffs are just not enough to bring Pig past how she performs currently overall.
Why RBTs need toning down
We acknowledge that buffs to her chase will require a tradeoff, as the strength of her RBTs should absolutely correlate to the strength of her chase. Throughout a number of updates, there has been a rise in the number of strong scream perks, which has facilitated a less engaging and unfun playstyle for the Pig. Chasing off Pig boxes and forcing pops was always possible, however, the time efficiency of doing so was quite bad due to the need to force a survivor to let go, and the timer is halted while in a chase. With the addition of perks like Hex: Face the Darkness and Ultimate Weapon, interrupting boxes has become both easier and more viable to force head pops, with little counterplay for survivors outside of Calm Spirit. We do understand that something needs to be done about this playstyle.
Why the current nerfs aren't the solution
The current nerfs are:
- The Pig can no longer see the auras of Jigsaw Boxes
- Reverse Bear Traps now have a base timer of 3 minutes (was 2.5 minutes)
These nerfs do not solve the problems players are having with Pig.
The extra 30s make forcing a head pop kill longer, more tedious, and less profitable, but ultimately it doesn't prevent a Pig from doing it. It is just as much throwing the game as before; it just means the obnoxious Jigsaw box playstyles require a more direct commitment to do. It does not prevent killer from tunneling the first surv they see with a trap on their head. There have been massive discussions about how this hurts regular Pig play, which have typically gotten quite heated so we won't be dredging that up again, but these nerfs affect every Pig regardless of play style, even if the overall time denied survivors from searching boxes is the same. Survivors have counterplay if they work as a team and delay gen pops in line with when survivors get trapped; just allowing 15 seconds for the survivor to get a head start on boxes is enough to prevent a head pop. This +30s change undeniably hurts the overall pressure provided by her Jigsaw boxes, and working around and accounting for that pressure was always what drew people to the Pig, similar to how setting up as Trapper and having it pay off down the road was immensely satisfying, even if the Killer isn't especially strong.
The denial of auras is more an annoyance than anything, it means that the highest level of Pig play will result in a need to memorize Pig box spawns, which is just an unnecessary irritation and makes Pig less accessible to newer players because of the random spawning algorithm. On indoor maps, because they are small maps you can run into surv doing the box cause of how they spawn, and tunnel them that way just playing the game...It doesn't address the problematic play style at all, as the Pig's who want to tunnel or force head pops will run Hex: Face the Darkness, Ultimate weapon, and maybe even aura perks to simply chase down survivors they want to pop anyway. Again this is hurting the regular Pig play style more than the problem Pig play style.
Our Proposed Solution
Instead of the nerfs proposed, we aim to target the issues Survivors are facing directly: -
- An active Bear Trap can no longer trigger while the survivor is still searching Jigsaw Boxes.
- And either: -
- Screams do not interrupt survivors working on Jigsaw boxes. <- (Direct scream nerf for all scenarios)
- Letting go of a Jigsaw box will regress progress at a rate of 1 c/s <- (Better future-proofing for other types of interrupt, but screams still can cause a pop if on the last box and the timer is spent... maybe rare enough to not matter?)
These changes maintain the threat of a head trap and keeps the macro game of the Pig intact, where interrupting a survivor at select moments ensures sub-optimal choices from the survivors overall and buys pressure and time.
In the same breath, these changes eliminate the 2 most hated parts of the Pig's traps.
- That hopeless situation where it's impossible to get a head trap off even if you find the final box.
- Being constantly reset on progress by a Pig forcing you to scream.
We want people to enjoy playing against the Pig, and our hope is that these changes keep the tenseness of the head trap, while also eliminating the nastier play styles. A Pig trying to head pop you, can't just use a scream to interrupt your progress. The Pig now has to actively push you off a box, which will activate the chase timer pause. We envision moments where people who don't know about the head trap being unable to pop while searching will be holding their breath hoping they can get their trap off in time, while those players who are aware will be holding their breath, hoping the Pig doesn't find them in that moment (similar to how being the last survivor committing to open the gate is a rush hoping the Killer doesn't happen to find you at that moment).
With this, we feel the Pig will be nicer to play, maintain her fear factor for survivors without being obnoxious, and be more engaging and fun for everyone.
Thanks for taking the time to read!
Signed the Society of Swine
Ship it! Nice work!
Approve of all additions and grammatical corrections ^^
Edit: Unless anyone has anything they'd want to add, does anyone want to volunteer to do the honours? :P
Also just because I have to cleanse myself of this awful pun... SAWciety of Swine. I know it's pure pain in text form... but I had to put it somewhere to get it out of my brain xD
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I feel like you need at least one reasonably strong slowdown perk/combo even at low levels to function. You dont have to take full slowdown... but you do need at least one perk for it. Something like: -
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
- Deadlock
- Grim Embrace
- Surge
- Dead Man's Switch
- Thanataphovia (Plague/Legion)
- Hex: Ruin (with support of some description)
I've tried taking full aura/anti healing perks, and the issue is you only need 1 chase to go bad, and you can fall irreparably behind...
I've taken a liking to Lethal Pursuer, Barbecue & Chill/Gearhead, PGTW and then another aura perk of choice recently... as after a hook I can bee-line it for a gen and stand a decent chance of getting a solid Pop proc... but ofc Distortion can ruin that day... so it's still a pain.
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Edit: Preserving for austerity when the PTB forum closes. 🤘🐽🤘
First of all, BHVR, we are a humble group of Pig players who want to thank you for turning attention to our Killer. We would like to go on the record as saying we believe your intent for the Pig is coming from the correct place. We have discussed the changes at length and this is our findings regarding our beloved lady.
Her Chase
Enhancing her chase is a welcome improvement many of us have been eagerly waiting for, and we certainly approve of these changes to her crouch speed, crouch movement speed, and ambush duration/recovery. These changes have made noticeable differences in her performance at a variety of loops, such as the car loop tile on the Garden of Joy map, going around shorter loops around tiles, going around rubble & objects into straightaways, and expanding on the number of tiles she can catch survivors on in general.
However, despite these buffs she is plagued by the same issues as before, where using any pre-dropping, any semi-decent pallet, and holding W to run away as she attempts to ambush, will still beat her. These same tiles and strategies lead to her buffs becoming relatively negligible in practice; crouching makes her lose distance while the survivor simply drops the pallet and runs away to gain more distance, ergo she is prevented from using her killer ability. This makes her ambush and crouch buffs unreliable to use across a variety of similar situations, and is apparent on even her strongest maps for stealth/ambushing like Midwich. We do not think the current list of changes will bring about the intended outcome of keeping the Pig viable in their current state.
We would appreciate more buffs in this department. With this in mind, we know you cannot make her unreasonably strong, so we encourage you to take into close consideration the slowdown brought on by her Reverse Bear Traps (RBTs). Promoting unfun playstyles is the last thing we ask for, but it is apparent that these initial number buffs are just not enough to bring Pig past how she performs currently overall.
Why RBTs need toning down
We acknowledge that buffs to her chase will require a tradeoff, and the strength of her RBTs should absolutely correlate to the strength of her chase. Throughout a number of recent updates, there has been a rise in the number of strong scream perks, which has facilitated a less engaging and unfun playstyle for the Pig. Chasing off Pig boxes and forcing pops was always possible, however, the time efficiency of doing so was quite bad due to the need to force a survivor to let go, and the timer is halted while in a chase. With the addition of perks like Hex: Face the Darkness and Ultimate Weapon, interrupting boxes has become both easier and more viable to force head pops, with little counterplay for survivors outside of Calm Spirit. We do understand that something needs to be done about this playstyle.
Why the current nerfs aren't the solution
The current nerfs are:
- The Pig can no longer see the auras of Jigsaw Boxes
- Reverse Bear Traps now have a base timer of 3 minutes (was 2.5 minutes)
We want to stress, these nerfs do not solve the problems players are having with Pig.
The extra 30s makes forcing a head pop kill longer, more tedious, and less profitable, but ultimately it doesn't prevent a Pig from doing it. It is just as much throwing the game as before; however it just means the obnoxious Jigsaw box playstyles require a more direct commitment to do. It does not prevent the Pig from tunneling the first surv they see with a trap on their head. There have been massive discussions about how this hurts regular Pig play, which have typically gotten quite heated so we won't be dredging that up again, but these nerfs affect every Pig regardless of play style, even if the overall time denied survivors from searching boxes is the same. Survivors have counterplay if they work as a team and delay gen pops in line with when survivors get trapped; just allowing 15 seconds for the survivor to get a head start on boxes is enough to prevent a head pop. This +30s change undeniably hurts the overall pressure provided by her Jigsaw boxes, and working around and accounting for that pressure was always what drew people to the Pig, similar to how setting up as Trapper and having it pay off down the road was immensely satisfying, even if the Killer isn't especially strong.
The denial of auras is more an annoyance than anything, it means that the highest level of Pig play will result in a need to memorize Pig box spawns, which is just an unnecessary irritation and makes Pig less accessible to newer players because of the random spawning algorithm. On indoor maps, because they are small maps you can even accidently run into a survivor doing the box cause of how they spawn, and effectively tunnel head pops just playing the game... Futhermore, it doesn't address the problematic play style at all, as the Pig's who want to tunnel or force head pops will run Hex: Face the Darkness, Ultimate weapon, and maybe even aura perks to simply chase down survivors they want to pop anyway. Again this is hurting the regular Pig play style more than the problem Pig play style.
Thankyou! @C3Tooth it's perfect! Nothing but love BHVR, but the quote was too good to pass up on🤘🐽🤘
Our Proposed Solution
Instead of the nerfs proposed, we aim to target the issues Survivors are facing directly:
- An active Bear Trap can no longer trigger while the survivor is still searching Jigsaw Boxes. (While searching, the timer will stop at 99.99%, and letting go at this point will immediately kill the survivor)
- And either: -
- Screams do not interrupt survivors working on Jigsaw boxes. <- (Direct scream nerf for all scenarios, WE PREFER THIS)
- Letting go of a Jigsaw box will regress progress at a rate of 1 c/s <- (Better future-proofing for other types of interrupt, but screams still can cause a pop if on the last box and the timer is spent... maybe rare enough to not matter?)
These changes maintain the threat of a head trap and keeps the macro game of the Pig intact, where interrupting a survivor at select moments ensures sub-optimal choices from the survivors overall and buys pressure and time.
In the same breath, these changes eliminate the 2 most hated parts of the Pig's traps.
- That hopeless situation where it's impossible to get a head trap off even if you reach the final box.
- Being constantly reset on progress by a Pig forcing you to scream.
We want people to enjoy playing against the Pig, and our hope is that these changes keep the tenseness of the head trap, while also eliminating the nastier play styles. Any Pig trying to head pop you, can't just use a scream to interrupt your progress, they now have to actively push you off a box, which will pause the chase timer. We envision moments where people who don't know about the head trap being unable to pop while searching will be holding their breath hoping they can get their trap off in time, while those players who are aware will be holding their breath, hoping the Pig doesn't find them in that moment (similar to how being the last survivor committing to open the gate is a rush hoping the Killer doesn't happen to find you at that moment).
With this, we feel the Pig will be nicer to play, maintain her fear factor for survivors without being obnoxious, and be more engaging and fun for everyone.
Thanks for taking the time to read!
Signed the Society of Swine
@radiantHero23 @Nun_So_Vile @Vanishlord @UndeddJester @AbsolutGrndZer0 @BlackRose89
We will be monitoring this chat, so if you want to sign these changes too let us know in this thread or via PM!
Cheers!
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@Vanishlord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657830#Comment_3657830
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657833#Comment_3657833
So we are agreed. I guess unless anyone else joins this disscussion due to the limited time frame for feedback I think so far everyone disscusing the two ideas the majority of us have agreed on @radiantHero23 you're idea seems to be the way to go at the moment. As Nun_So_Vile said this buff needs to be done right it could be ages before there is another. So my fellow Pig council members how do we proceed?
Suppose a summary thread signed from all us Pig mains that covers: -
- Acknowledgement of the problems to solve.
- The buffs are very nice QOL changes, but ultimately the scenarios it actually makes a difference are not that prevelant.
- The changes don't solve what they want to solve (screams and being box camped).
- The nerfs hurts all types of Pig players, not just the trolling ones.
- radiantHero's changes we propose instead to actually solve the problem.
- Signed the Society of Swine. Plz sign with us 😁
Don't think we need to linger on points long, we already have a few essays through the forum. Quick Points are gonna be the way I think. I can mock something up at lunch time and throw up for review in a group PM unless someone beats me to it.
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@Vanishlord said:
@radiantHero23 @Nun_So_Vile @JPLongstreet @UndeddJester @AbsolutGrndZer0
Since we are disscussing solutions and alternitives to this nerf, we need to agree on one and all try promote it we also need to incorporate survivors into it.
So far Jester and Hero's ideas removing the screams sounds like the way to go as from my disscussion the screams is one of the big problem survivors have.
The only thing I would add on is if we do end up with the extra 30 seconds the last bit of this post would help a bit.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2V4L6EJXS3P9/image.png
(ignore my bad highlighting)
This for me is kind of a worst case scenerio as it still isn't ideal but it is better then the PTB state.
I do think just nerfing scream builds for pig is enough. Lets keep brainstorming people!🐷
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Personally I like radiantHero's idea, simply because for anyone not in the know, which will be most of SoloQ, I can see it being really tense just making it to final box and not being sure if they'll make the timer. Anyone whonis in the know will be praying the Pig doesn't turn up... similar to how my chest pounds as last survivor opening the gate... which sounds cool.
The scream not interrupting nerf is a necessary evil to halt the main complaint, even though I don't like some screams interrupting actions and some not... Cage's perk always makes me naturally let go cause I forget I can keep hold.
Tbh, I'd rather take both my and radiants nerfs than the 30s timer.... At least we would retain our pressure gameplay while also hitting the more brain dead strategies. If we REALLY have to go to war to prevent the 30s nerf, I'd push for a regressing progression box and impossible to pop head trap while searching. If box auras come back as well, I would be signing on the line for them to take this pair of nerfs in their place.
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Far be it from me to misrepresent the collective will of the Glorious Snoot Society:
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657268#Comment_3657268
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657270#Comment_3657270
I saw a suggestion in this thread that I liked actually:
The Jigsaw boxes instead regress at a rate of 1 c/s when a survivor lets go. Its a simple change but it does 2 things: -
- Makes scream builds basically non-effective, as the survivor basically loses only a second of progress. This nicely doesn't betray what we understand about screams as an "interrupt" mechanic (the perks that already do this kinda irritate me)
- Makes it so that pushing someone off a box actually requires the Pig to commit. Merely letting go cause you saw the Pig briefly going by doens't reset your progress, it has to be a conscious decision by the Pig to pose a threat to the survivor, and a quick look and walk away isn't gonna cut it.
What do we reckon to this suggestion?
I always liked @radiantHero23s suggestion:
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405718/are-the-devs-serious
Its so sad. They seem to severely lack understanding of how to balance these kind of powers.
Im just gonna post this here again:
Best form of nerf to RBT:
- survivors cannot die to the timer running out while searching a jigsaw box
- survivors are not interrupted by screaming while searching a jigsaw box
Nothing more is needed. These nerfs would be in line with the buffs she is getting. The nerfs proposed in the notes are overkill.
Mechanically no arguments at all and nothing but support, the only thing that irks me about it is purely that it betrays a little of the idea of the theme of what's going on.
Mostly why would the timer stop mid search? Why does a scream not interrupt? (I don't like how we have screams that interrupt and screams that don't... the mechanic feels inconsistent to me).
How do we collectively feel about this alternative? If the search box degrades, screams doesn't cause a problem, survivors getting downed or chase stops progress on the timer, so having to commit to get a survivor to let go seems reasonable to me.
It seems almost as good, without the theme taking a hit. Thoughts? Anything I'm overlooking?
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@Nazzzak said:
I got mine from Forbidden Planet
Same, I have the full 1-4 collection on order for release 24th April in the UK, which looks really nice if you don't mind waiting a little for it.
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I think he's great, but he's OP vs. newbies.
As such I expect him to follow Onryō and Pig and have his slowdown gutted in favour of getting improvements in chase.
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Radical suggestion
Redhead's Pinky finger:
- A direct hit with Afterpiece Tonic exposes the survivor.
- Once you throw Afterpiece Tonic bottle you can only throw Afterpiece Antidotes until you reload.
This then basically has no problematic interaction with bottle numbers whatsoever, and has a signficiant trade off. A Clown running this will be better off using Antidotes to chase and burn resources, then when at the right moment can go for the instadown. If they miss, they likely still got the slow and a hit, and have speed bottle to try and finish the job, but is a risky style of play, for potentially great reward.
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@MagicJoe said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NOCNILOCFOTC/image.png
I saw Ricky Berwick say it looks like him. So he's Ricky Berwick to me.
Hahahahahahahha, Ricky... what an absolute Don xD
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https://youtu.be/G56VgsLfKY4?si=4yScmkYnwhW9qC4P@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3655809#Comment_3655809
I mean, obviously. You think the dark between the stars will really stop a visit from the IRS?
1 vote for Mark Hamill to voice the Entity in the DBD movie.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654587#Comment_3654587
Sorry about the late response, I was distracted by the PTB, lol
So I think a big miscommunication between us is that you seem to think I/this change is in favour of Pig being stopped from interrupting searches, and I don't think that's quite accurate. There's not actually anything in these changes stopping Pig from interrupting boxes, it's just harder to get specifically a head-pop from doing it and you have to utilise a little more tracking skill to try it in the first place.
What I think this change is meant to accomplish is twofold, in that regard. I think it's meant to communicate to Pig players, especially newer ones, that you're not really supposed to be patrolling those boxes as your primary gameplay loop, you're meant to be spreading pressure. The second is that I think it's meant to reinforce that the benefit of interrupting boxes now and then is more slowdown, not a head-pop. Find a survivor on a box, harry them away, go do something else, that survivor is forced to either double back around and risk running into you again or run to another box.
The problem with the increase-urgency addons is that they increase the risk of dying to a head trap. That's exactly why the Tampered Timer + Crate of Gears combination was nerfed, it increased the risk to the point where the survivor couldn't reasonably guarantee staying alive if they dropped everything to go search boxes, which skewed Pig's power massively from a fair slowdown mechanic to an unfair free kill. Now when you run them, it increases urgency, but only to the point where you have much less leeway to do anything else; you're still probably not gonna die unless the Pig hard-focuses you.
This is also why I don't think current Tampered Timer is actually all that good. The slowdown from the Gears addons adds up, even if it's kinda minor, but the Tampered Timer doesn't actually make head-pops reliable (which it shouldn't) nor does it actually change the slowdown numbers at all, it just makes survivors go through their searches quicker without any dallying around which can kind of backfire on you if they only have a few searches to do at all. I'd much rather see this addon reworked to be more cohesive with what her kit actually excels in, at least the Annotated Plan provides some really meagre team pressure to stop gen repairs entirely- and even then it's not good.
The addons existing doesn't mean they're inherently well designed or healthy. Killers have had dumb problematic addons for as long as the game's been out, on and off. Even so, if you were to argue that the playstyle of Pig trying to ambush searches and gain pressure that way is healthy, the fact that it's still extremely doable with those addons and just requires more effort + brainpower would still support my base claim. What a power's designed to do at base can be altered with addons, after all.
It's all good, I don't have access to the PTB so I rely on others for footage and information.
I think you're right, there is a bit of a miscommunication going on, but I get the feeling we may have to agree to a handshake on it in the end.
I understand the point you're making, that survivors aren't on gens, and having a longer timer means survivors spend more time doing other things, instead of clearing boxes, so that is even more time off gens, but time without pressure is worthless.
My main point of contention that I can't get past with this change is, OK fine, they take our auras and want us not to harass for head pops. The problem I now have is... why would I ever bother interrupting a survivor on a box at all?
I don't tunnel survivors or camp boxes, but I understand that a well timed interupt if I'm paying attention to the number of boxes searched can apply a lot of pressure... as even just the 1 interrupt can put a survivor on a significant time crunch.
By adding 30s to the timer, I can't stall out their Timer for a head pop at all (which is the intention of this change)... if they're dealing with a trap though, they aren't on a gen... so if its not possible for me to get somewhat close to a head pop, why would I harass this survivor at all? It isn't gonna lead to any questions about whether they have time to heal, come for an unhook, or stop a gen regressing, because they have plenty of time to do so.... so me interrupting a survivor on a box is a complete waste of my time in this 4vs1 game if the possibility of popping a head is non-existent.
I don't have so much concern now that I've seen that her add-ons made partially basekit haven't been nerfed as much as I thought they were gonna be (JMF is really nice). So she is not totally dead in water as a killer... but... I genuinely can't see how anyone can think that Pig is somehow a stronger killer by making the threat of her Pig boxes so low... the breakpoints on a survivors time got so much longer, that survivors can now be pretty casual about her boxes.
Noone has ever said Pig was a strong killer, but she was a noob stomper. This change does nerf bat low level Pigs quite well against low level players... same as Onryō... but against high level players, she hasn't gained enough to really level the playing field, and has lost the ability to cramp a high skilled survivors time enough with the threat they might get caught at box 4. It was already risking/sacrificing a lot to get pressure against high level survivors by interrupting boxes... now its basically slam dunking the game into the trash to even try.
Maybe that's what everyone wants? To me I see Pigs slowdown more of a mindgame in of itself, one where the time spent harassing boxes isn't the most efficient use of your time, but the idea you MIGHT do it, can create a subtle pressure on survivors to take less optimal choices. That less optimal choice might make the difference killing a player 30s sooner than you otherwise would have, which can totally turn a game.
Just like Trapper, when a long term plan pays off, e.g. catching a survivor who got their head trap off in the nick of time, but didn't heal in order to do so, is satisfying to the point that it offsets the fact your aren't a top tier killer. 1 game where this works can offset 4 games of eating pallets and getting harassed constantly. Now her slowdown has been made binary and dumb, where you simply just ignore survivors with head traps. Always. It's totally pointless to interact with them at all.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654547#Comment_3654547
I mean, none of those addons are all that good except for the two Gears addons, and those addons are good because they increase the slowdown more than because they increase lethality.
The idea of addons that decrease the timer is presumably that a shorter timer would mean more urgency for the survivors, but there's two major things to remember: the first is that the ability to do something with addons doesn't always translate to that thing being necessary, important, or even balanced basekit, and the second is that these addons aren't particularly amazing, you're not giving me a list of Pig's best addons here.
Those addons aren't that amazing specifically because the lethality of the traps isn't really why you bring them, and the time they detract from the timer can't be that strong - Crate of Gears and Tampered Timer was nerfed a while ago to make sure of this, because bringing the old version of those addons with a little extra work made head-pops way too reliable.
Providing more urgency is fine, it's not a bad effect to bring with addons, but the increase of thirty seconds lessening the urgency somewhat doesn't necessarily then become something you'll notice with regular/good Pig gameplay. Hell, if anything, it's more time with traps on which gives more time for other addon effects to work, more time to keep survivors off generators, and in general just more trap slowdown. You almost want the traps on for as long as possible, as long as the survivor doesn't feel too safe working on a generator with one active- which thirty extra seconds shouldn't cause, and if it does, you can capitalise on it. Remember, the change that made the average trap take more searches was a buff because they have the hat on for longer now.
None of this applies to the two bottom addons, those are just flat out bad.
I've always appreciated your argumentation friend, but on this one I have to hard disagree.
Tampered Timer and Rules Set No.2 are not slouch add-ons. We've had scores of people talk about how 4 box traps can easily get you killed, and thats why the 30s increase is needed, and these add-ons absolutely exacerbate that problem. They directly increase your chance of not having enough time to get your trap off. That is obvious and not debatable.
The Gears add-ons add 3s and ~1.7s per box, that means across 4 boxes you're adding 4.7s per box with both add-ons, or an upper bound of 18.8s total. That isn't as high as Tampered Timer with its 20s, so why are they good? Because they allow the Pig more time to interrupt... but apparently we want yo stop that...
I never said the bottom add-ons were good. Decent players can still hit the skillchecks, so the add-ons suck. However the design is that missing a skillcheck means the Pig gets a Notification and again, can interrupt.
The Deep wound directly stops you from removing your head trap, because you're bleeding out, which means it costs you time.
The point of my argument is all of Pigs design up to this point has been for her to patrol and interrupt survivors, and put pressure on to cause head pops. It's balanced by the fact that if she chases, the timer is paused, so can't just do like an idiot, but all of these add-ons push an idea of interrupting survivors on boxes, and increasing the chance of a head pop.
That is my evidence for why this argument of yours that survivors aren't meant to die to head traps is wrong.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654499#Comment_3654499
No killer has to pressure gens and most killer players would do a lot better once they realise that. Pig, like every killer, pressures survivors and mostly only uses gens as bait. As for her chase being weak, that is literally what they are buffing on the PTB, so at least confirm the changes aren't enough before doomsaying?
It's meant to be enough to get the searches off, that's the point of her power. Survivors aren't supposed to die to RBTs, they're supposed to willingly trade gen time for the guarantee that they won't die to RBTs. That's the whole point. If this change makes survivors less likely to die to either randomly getting a bad box spread and not having time, or to Pig players who aggressively harass them away from boxes, good. That means the power is working more as intended.
Do I need to point out that there's more ways of tracking survivors than aura perks, and that spending box-search time healing is risky?
Not that I'm trying to rubbish your point... but you do realise that by giving survivors more time, you allow them to commit to actions they normally wouldn't be able to?
If it were true survivors weren't meant to die to head traps, can you explain why addons exist to increase her head trap lethality?
- Tampered Timer (-20s active trap time)
- Crate of Gears (-25% box search speed)
- Bag of Gears (-14% box search speed)
- Rules Set No.2 (No auras until on)
- Jigsaw's Annotated Plan (-10s every gen completed)
- Razor Wires (20% smaller skill check size on boxes and injured on failure)
- Interlocking Razor (Missing box skill check cause deep wound on injured survivor)
All of these add-ons consume more of the survivor's time relative to the head trap timer, to varying degrees of success.
Should all of these add-ons be reworked to not interact with any head trap lethality whatsoever, since that isn't the point of head traps?
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@monochromeworld said:
cause game is survivor sided and devs only care about survivors fun
Not convinced that can claimed be when 4 killers, conveniently killers who likely use Sloppy, are getting categorical buffs that can't be argued as anything but buffs.
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I'm not inherently against conditions beimg limited time... Although for mangled does this include time on hooks, carried, or time on the ground?
Cause that would be a little poor if Sloppy Butcher for example was 90s... a hypothetical:
- 10s to ensure no saves or flashies
- 3s to pick up
- 8s to hook
- 30s to rescue
- 15s to get to safety and hide to heal...
We're then less than 30s left to go on a typical Mangled, give or take with variables above. Maybe this fine really I guess? Vigil would be good... stacking Vigil would be 🤓
60s Mangled effects seems like they'd be a little pants....
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654160#Comment_3654160
Why is it that smart killer gameplay is considered harassment or scummy?
Because the survivor cannot do anything. Their fate is sealed the moment they receive a trap with 4 searches. 2:30 is already barely enough to reach 4 boxes on some map spawns, all it takes is for the killer to be at the one you're going to once and you're guaranteed to die, potentially on first or no hooks.
This is not healthy gameplay. It's worse than tunneling. Furthermore there's a current tactic of using scream perks such as Face The Darkness and Ultimate Weapon to interrupt boxes, which has the same effect without even needing to tunnel.
Ideally, traps ahould only be able to kill when the survivor messes up. Not when the killer decides to casually interrupt one single box search.
Not only is this fair, but it's in line with the lore too. Amanda tried to fix the game in her favour and her hubris killed her, meanwhile John's games always had a guaranteed way out, providing you played by the rules.
They don't have the time to come for an unhook, heal, search a chest, get chased away from traps and still get the trap off, if they have 4 searches. This will no longer be the case. 30 seconds more time is enough to take any kill pressure away.
Absolutely false. An extra 30 seconds doesn’t give you the freedom to drop your box search relay. There is still the chance that your search is interrupted, that the killer intercepts you between boxes, and this can shave off a lot of time. 30 seconds is nowhere near enough to guarantee you tine to spare.
Just don't use her power to its max potential. What about Pinhead's box, would it be a nerf, if he couldn't pick it up himself anymore? Surely not. It's only a nerf, if you do that. Or Sadako's codemned moris, would it be a nerf if you couldn't kill survivors with it but it would give you simple slowdown instead?
Sadako has literally been nerfed and reworked multiple times to prevent her power being used purely for lethal moris. Skull Merchant has also had reworked to remove problematic tactics. Pig isn't even new to this as she was reworked to prevent her guaranteeing a head pop by camping a box. This is no different to that.
Kills have to be earned, and survivors have to have the opportunity to outplay the killer.
Using the Pig's power to it's potential, playing the optimal Pig game, is leaving a trapped survivor alone to make use of the slowdown it provides. It's the most basic form of killer arithmetic, that although can take skill and a bit of luck to fully realise, is still overlooked by many poor killers who rely on crutch perks.
One survivor is hooked, one survivor is in chase/directly pressured, one survivor has to go for the rescue + heal, that leaves one survivor on gens. You want the survivor that's left to do gens to be the one who is trapped. The optimal Pig game is ensuring that scenario occurs as you rotate survivors and work through your traps.
To say that optimal Pig games are where you get head pops by applying minimal pressure to one survivor who has no ability to do anything else but die, is like saying optimal Skull Merchant gameplay is holding gens hostage for 59 minutes. It might be true, but it's scummy.
I play Pig a lot, I always ignore the trapped survivor. I want to get all the slowdown potential out of that trap, and I don't want them to die to a trap on their first hook. I want them to eventually get their trap off? so that I can catch them and hook them again, I want as many hooks as I can get.
Despite this, I still get games where survivors die to traps. Sometimes without any interaction with me at all, sometimes because I accidentally crossed paths with them and delay their searches. You know what usually happens in these cases? A DC, or they give up. There's nothing satisfying in shooting fish in a barrel.
I play Pig a lot, I always ignore the trapped survivor. I want to get all the slowdown potential out of that trap, and I don't want them to die to a trap on their first hook. I want them to eventually get their trap off? so that I can catch them and hook them again, I want as many hooks as I can get.
Despite this, I still get games where survivors die to traps. Sometimes without any interaction with me at all, sometimes because I accidentally crossed paths with them and delay their searches. You know what usually happens in these cases? A DC, or they give up. There's nothing satisfying in shooting fish in a barrel.
You do? I mean I know both of our evidence is anecdotal... so it's something we'd have to just accept is true from each other... but I find it hard to believe, because I have nowhere near your hours, and I imagine I go up against weaker survivors than yourself...
I've had maybe 2 instances I can think of where a survivor got killed without my intervention unless I was taking some really nasty add-ons (and even then, cause I don't tend to pressure survivors on boxes its rare)... I actually have both recorded on my PS5, one as a trophy, one because it blew my mind that it happened.... The first one was literally my second game as Pig, and the bambi survivor walked out the gate and the bear trap popped... I didn't even understand at the time what happened. The second one I was literally walking around Garden of Joy crouched.. so I know how much of a Bambi I was....
Now I know I didn't have many head pops, because when I went for the 15 kills trophy, I was playing mostly Pig, and at the time I had 7 executions (and I never took moris, and of the killers I played didn't have executes wiuth the exception of Myers, who I also didn't take the add-ons for), and I liked the idea of going for that trophy, with purely head pops... needless to say after 2 months of not getting much progress, even if I was taking nasty add-ons, I gave up and just took a mori... OFC Pig mori is what I got for my trophy video...
All of this is to say, unless you pressure boxes, even the bambiest of survivors almost never dies... so with my assumption you are far better than me... how on earth does anyone ever die if you're running non RBT add-ons against good survivors without pressuring them? Like I barely saw it happen as a newbie... 🤔
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I want to write another dossier about this attitude of "This hurts Pigs who tunnel for head pops", but I've described my issues with the RBT change I think well in other threads.
Pig's RBT gameplay is more than just "Head trapped survivor isnt doing gens". There is a greater time management skill here than just that simply reductive way of looking at it. More time on her traps is more time for everything, and all those decisions regarding those breakpoints just got a lot easier to manage. E.g. 24s to self heal on an active trap is now perfectly safe.
The general consensus among the Pig mains I know is yes, you've successfully nerfed the Pigs who tunnel for head pops. However you've also taken a big chunk of pressure out of chase Pig players as well... and while her chase at base is better, it's not as good as the current chase Pig build who to remind you DOESN'T HAVE THE RBT NERF YET.
So yeah... you got rid of the nasty styles of play... but you haven't suddenly made her a strong chase killer, she is still lacklustre (as she should be for a stealth slowdown killer).
Onryo basically needs Fingernails to function. Without it you are nothing. I get the feeling Workshop Grease is gonna be the same for Pig.
Be honest with yourself, with these changes, do you honestly think Pig is gonna compete with the likes of Pyramid Head, Huntress, Chucky or Alien? I somehow doubt it.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
I received word about the new changes through a series of highly encrypted messages sent by @AbsolutGrndZer0. I'll paste my response here as well. These are my initial lunch break thoughts after going through the notes the first time.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653057#Comment_3653057
The Pig
In a (truly) shocking turn of events, we have decided to buff (here we go) The Pig (Run far far away and hide Amanda). More specifically, we have made improvements to both The Pig’s Ambush and Crouch abilities (Good so far). The goal with these changes is to make her Ambush and stealth abilities more useful and make her less reliant on her Reverse Bear Traps (-Karma, [Insert Fallout "everyone disliked that"]) (Ngl starting to get me a little worried).
Ambush:
- Increased Ambush duration to 2.3 seconds (was 2 seconds) (Okay, I wanted to see it longer, more in line with SnD, so I can get behind the slight number bump)
- Decreased Ambush successful attack cooldown to 2.7 seconds (was 3 seconds) (Nothing too game, breaking. Definitely on the safe side for an initial change)
- Decreased Ambush missed attack cooldown to 1.5 seconds (was 2 seconds) (I like this change, I was going to be harder on the values, but honestly it's a decent start)
Crouch:
- Increased crouched movement speed to 3.8m/s (was 3.6m/s) (So, less than JMFs value, but we'll have to see how JMF gets changed)
- Decreased time taken to crouch to 1 second (was 1.3 seconds) (This is a good change)
Reverse Bear Traps:
- The Pig can no longer see the auras of Jigsaw Boxes (This one's a tough one to take on the chin for me; Auras in this game are very useful)
- Reverse Bear Traps now have a base timer of 3 minutes (was 2.5 minutes) (Will have to see how this change interacts with some of her add-ons. I hesitate to classify this as more second-chance opportunities making their way into the game, but an extra 30 seconds will certainly make the difference between getting a kill and not on Piggy. I think we've all had a game where it really comes down to those precious seconds on RBT's timer. Not a big fan of this change overall just because a lot can happen in those extra 30 seconds. Will Gears be more sought after to combat this?)
Some of these changes make me a little nervous, but It sounds like she'll get through these changes alright for the most part. A lot of this is what the community has been asking for, which has made some add-ons redundant (which devs have acknowledged in their notes), and in need of probably more than just a numbers change looking down the line. The aura change and the increase in RBT timer i'm not a big fan of off as of now. That being said, there are a lot of good changes, and safe-by-the-numbers changes, mixed in here with the bad (IMO). It'll be interesting to see if they'll only adjust the numbers on her add-ons or if she'll have an add-on rework in the future.
I'm also kinda glad they didn't mess with her grunts and squeals in the process of tweaking Ambush.
This is a strong response. It does make sense to wait to see what the add-on changes will be. For my take on add-ons:
John's Medical File/Combat Straps
I'm hope JMF and Combat Straps aren't just halved to compensate for being partially basekit, as that makes them... pretty hard to justify for both add-on slots. If they get a little bit extra... we might be cookin'...
Amanda's Secret
Downsode is now obviously partially basekit... I hope in the add-on pass they do something about Amanda's Secret... to this day I can't see why you'd want to use up an addon slot for a Notification and 6s aura read 4 times per game... like I'd still consider it niche with a 20s aura... the only value I can ever see it having is maybe in end game? Does any more experienced Pig player know the value of this that I'm missing?
Jigsaw's Annotated Plan
This need a significant relook, cause its now trash. The +10s is basically "who cares anyway?" territory on top of 30s added basekit... and now losing 10s every gen that pops is even more "who cares anyway?". It was already pretty niche and hard to get value from, as I need 2 gens to pop just to break even, and so it needed other add-ons to support it... but now I need 3 gens to pop just to remove the basekit increase... 4 to even start getting value on this effect. The 1 extra headtrap is literally the only worth it has.... and the problem with extra head traps is they all need to be applied before a gen pops, which can be hard to do, and will be harder now survivors will be committing more to finishing gens with the extra 30s they get to play with.
I'm losing a gen for the value of this thing, and I already lost one just to turn it on, so thats 2 gens typically for any value... You could ditch the 10s penalty AND give a 20s time reduction... and it's STILL weaker than its current incarnation... required a total of 3 gens to pop just to reach the same equivalent value.
I imagien this wpuld need a total rework if we're wanting to nerf bat RBTs into oblivion. Even a 30s drop with no penalty only brings it back to the same value this was before... but that might be ok, to at least be a sudden shock and surprise for a survivor to see a big chunk of their time to just disappear, that might claw back a little head trap fear... and if 2 gens get done while headtrapped, then suddenly this is scary... but I doubt we'll see that.
Tampered Timer
This was always one of her nastier add-ons, and tbh, if you wanna remove her head traps potency, just hitting this add-on does a lot by itself...
However if we're going through with this change to give 30s base, and lose our box auras... this add-on might be fine for taking RBTs back somewhat to the level they were before. Workshop Grease and Tampered Timer seems it might be a somewhat effective Pig+ build compared to old Pig... but its questionable whether you would ever consider this add-on now. It seems better to just give up on trying to make RBTs scary and just use them as purely a fire and forget slowdown.
This add-on might be worth just ignoring completely or being reworked to something more interesting... like every "Good" skillcheck reduces the timer by 4 seconds, while a great gains you 4 seconds. You typically get 3 skillchecks per box, so even a 4 box headtrap with a full set of goods would lose you 36s... which is less that what this add-on did before.... but again, we won't see anything like this, in case of Piggy trying to interrupt, and we don't want any of that.
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The concern I have with making a lot of her chase add-ons partially basekit, is those same add-ons are being nerfed to obviously be effectively the same as they were before...
As a Pig player who runs the chase add-ons already, them now being partially basekit is nice, but all a player with the chase Pig set up is really getting is the longer ambush lunge and faster recovery... then a hefty nerf to RBTs. You went this chase build because this style of play feels good to play... but it was not the easiest/strongest way to play Pig without a lot of skill... (and believe me, I regularly feel I have a LOT of skill to build here).
The strength of Pig was always in the most potent add-ons for her Bear Traps, using the really nasty add-ons (mostly Tampered Timer or Ruleset Number 2). You were giving this up on chase Pig, and the chase add-ons were by no means her strongest combo... but it does feel nice and is fun to play.
Now bear in mind the partial basekit means you aren't getting the FULL chase Pig, you are getting a partial milktoast chase Pig... and the value of these add-ons for chase Pig is diminished by 50%.... this means you instead probably want to be using your RBT add-ons that you're now afforded with your new basekit changes if you want some decent bang for your buck... except you're getting a hefty nerf to the info on your boxes and your timer on your traps too, so your benefits are kinda moot anyway...
Thus far it is looking like Workshop Grease fast ambush charge might be a really strong and staple add-on to make use of that new lunge distance, lunge CDs and crouching transition speed... then probably Tampered Timer to somewhat take Pigs times back to the way they were. Maybe inconjunction with Last will, so you have a net of 17% faster ambush, but you get the 6% additonal speed as well... and just really go hard on ambushes.
Time will tell. I'm not doom and gloom about it, but I'm not sure her RBTs remain all that relevant when survivors can heal, tap a gen to 5%, and still ahve plenty of time to meander over a jigsaw box at their leisure.
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@Seraphor said:
So much melodrama.
Every time the topic of Pig buffs comes up, and it's fairly often, the consensus is always:
- Buff chase
- Buff crouch
- Buff Ambush
- Buff stealth
- Nerf traps
And that's exactly what we're getting.
Traps are not supposed to be a way to reliably kill survivors. Ideally they should only result in a kill when the survivor ######### up, not when the Pig stalks and harrasses the trapped survivor.
Traps are supposed to be slowdown. 12 box searches guaranteed, 12 seconds each, plus travel time. 144+ seconds of guaranteed slowdown. That's the value of RBTs, and that hasn't been changed one bit.
Increasing the time survivors have to remove their trap doesn't change how long it takes to remove the trap. Hiding auras of boxes doesn't change how long it takes to remove the trap.
There is no nerf here... unless you're a Pig who harrasses a trapped survivor to force a head pop.
This is further convincing me that Pig mains don't actually know how to play Pig. You stick a trap on a survivor then you ignore that survivor until their trap has been removed. It's the single most effective form of slowdown in the game, and the best anti-tunnel mechanic that actually benefits the killer. But instead nearly every Pig I go against tunnels a trapped survivor, wasting their slowdown potential. Apparently all those Pigs frequent this forum.
You're not wrong that the overall time aspect hasn't been altered, so I do see what you're saying. I do try to stay objective on these discussions, so even though the Pig is my chosen main, I am not close minded to any form of nerf if it makes sense to me.
With that in mind, the problem I see is a more subtle part of the Pig's gameplay is not the ability to force survivors off boxes, but the threat/possibility that she MIGHT force you off jigsaw boxes and/or being caught with little time to spare.
It is already less efficient for the Pig to chase down survivors with head traps. Her chase pauses their timer, so playing to interrupt boxes has the same problem as camping. It might secure you A KILL, but you are likely throwing the game if you're doing it a lot.
The real power of the head traps is not just the time slowdown, but the fact if a survivor messes around by taking time to heal, movimg to stop a gen regressing (esp now with 5%), playing too cautious and stealthy, or even being in a situation where they're the only one available to pull a teammate off hook before they lose a stage... any of these things can lead to a 4 box trap having a good chance of killing you. You have to deal with it reasonably quickly, and you have to make concessions on your time and often take a less optimal choice, just in case you get the bad rng trap (cause there is almost always one).
Adding 30s removes a LOT of that pressure, you now can afford the time to heal, to stop a gen regressing, etc. Even the threat of finishing a gen without preemptively doing a jigsaw box is diminished... you may even spend 10 seconds to finish a gen even while your head is going, because you're now afforded the time to.
The inability to see jigsaw boxes is an annoyance, again chasing a survivor off boxes is likely using your time inefficiently, however what you can do is "spook", push them off (preferrebly withoit chase) on your way to somewhere else and buy a few extra seconds off that survivor that may severely limit their time and options later.
I'm not so sharp on this time management stuff, but I have seen Pigs who are...and its aweaome to see. The limited time can be crucially important to her pressure, by virtue of the fact if you have good internal timing, you can KNOW that if you have 1 person with an active RBT close to popping, 1 on hook, 1 slugged, that you only have 1 survivor active at this point in time that can deal with that hook.
You add 30s on that, that head trapped survivor must have really been screwing about in order for you to have anything close to that pressure... and ofc the main point is ,having this amount of pressure against strong survivors as the Pig is rare and hard earned...
Now ofc, we aren't getting nothing for this, her chase is getting better... but... she's still not gonna be strong in chase, her chase is still gonna be a little lacklustre... and it should be, she as you rightly point out still has this slowdown... but, she is losing a lot of the psychological pressure with these changes... and that psychological pressure is already not very effective against veterans.
If you disagree, I'd be intrigued to hear the argument. I accept something needs to be done about her low MMR potency, but this feels like something that just permanently relegates Pig to play in the bronze mud.
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@radiantHero23 said:
@UndeddJester , i cant post as often due to being banned to the shadowrealm that is Maliketh´s punching bag, and because im jailed on the Forums right now, you need to call upon the other members of our secret society. We need them all. This is an emergency.
For now, im just gonna copy and post this here:
Im back from the shadowrealm (Elden Ring) and not for good reasons.
I have to quote the Boss im currently biting my nails out: "Tarnished? Why wouldst thou....why....?!!?". Its incredibly fitting on how these changes make me feel.
This is super bad. Im not exaggerating.
Lets start of saying, that the comment in the dev notes that this is a buff is not true. The overall strenght of the Pig will take a massive hit here. Her power level will remain the same AT BEST.
Lets start off with the good stuff:
- Longer ambush (2 sec. to 2.3 sec.)
- Faster ambush cooldowns (hit --> 3 sec. to 2.7 sec. and miss --> 2 sec. to 1.5 sec.)
- Faster stealth movement (3.6 m/s to 3.8 m/s)
- Faster crouching and uncrouching ( 1.3 sec. to 1 sec.).
To put this into perspective:
- Crouch movement speed with medical file: 3.959999 m/s (right now)
- Survivor base movement speed: 4.0 m/s
- Crouching and uncrouching with combat straps: 0,91 sec. (right now)
- Missed attack cooldown: doesnt matter because the player wants to hit. Otherwise, its just wasted time. Pig is not gonna use the ambush to block vaults or pallets
- Longer ambush (new effect)
All great! Great changes to make her a bit more viable in chase. Now where is the rest? ... No? Thats it?
Now to the nerfs:
- The Pig will no longer see auras of the boxes
- The bear trap timer is increased to 3 minutes.
I cant be the only one that sees this right? These buffs DO NOT OUTWEIGHT THE NERFS. Ever had the problem of the survivor just leaving the loop when you start to crouch? You think that problem is gone now? NO! Even with all her best addons, survivors will outrun the ambush. Due to the changes making NO ADDON completely basekit, this WILL NOT CHANGE! Im currently using medical file and combat straps every game. Both addons are give a better effect, than the one that will be on the PTB. Survivors still outrun me by a mile. These addons WILL BE NERFED AND THE BASE EFFECT IS NOT EVEN AS STRONG.
THESE CHANGES WILL NOT INCREASE HER CHASE POTENTIAL ENOUGH TO WARRANT THESE HEAVY NERFS!
30 seconds longer on traps now makes head pops almost impossible. They should not be happening every match by far, but they should also not be something that happens when the survivor has to clean their desk mid match because they accidently pushed over the Doritos.
The aura change just make her even harder to play because now i have to memorize box locations on top of all the other things. A completely unnecessary change that is supposed to nerf her head pop potential.
Both nerfs (especally the 30+ seconds) are COMPLETE OVERKILL! This makes her kill potential non eistant, therefore making traps less lethal, therefore makingh it even easier to play against her because there are 30 seconds more room for huge mistakes.
This match, i had recently is a perfect showcase of this and of why the Pigs traps SHOULD NOT BE NERFED IN THESE WAYS!
Pig on Garden of Joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z06a3UullRk
THIS IS THE OPTIMAL NERF OT THE TRAPS:
- A survivor searching a box cannot die to the timer running out while searching the box.
PLEASE TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION!!!! It comes from overe 2200h of experience and seems small, but this change is huge for the lethality of the traps, while not being as massive as the changes proposed in the dev notes.
BHVR, YOU WILL NERF THE PIG AGAIN! THIS IS NOT A BUFF.
@Nun_So_Vile @JPLongstreet @AbsolutGrndZer0 @totallynotamegmain
More to rally friends! You guys are all the active forum Pig mains I know! Please keep the rally going!
This is a butchering of her kit, the buffs are nice and needed, but they do not make her a chase killer... she is not a chase killer, she is a stealth slowdown killer... and the nerfs completely destroy her slowdown...
If you wanna hit her RBTs BHVR, you don't need much. Heck @radiantHero23s suggestion for preventing head pops while on a box and maybe reworking tampered timer would be all it would take to smooth out her nastier gameplay.
Trying to improve her chase is a noble goal, trading off for some RBT power is fine... but currently she is being gutted... her RBTs don't need to be overpowered, but they do need to at least be something you can't ignore.
Please reconsider what you're taking away from her...
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@CountOfTheFog said:
The Pig is terrifying enough 😳
She should not have stealth!
I'd rather face Skull Merchant 💀
Plz no hate Piggys.. we is the funz 🐽
Unless it's a black leather Pig... then run for your damned life.
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@radiantHero23 Oh boy... I'm sorry, you must be Summoned... though I don't think you'll like it...
So keeping level headed... my take on this is the John's Medical File and Combat Straps being partially basekit is a very welcome change.
The ambush recovery reductions for miss and hits are very much welcome. The extra lunge time is very nice, happy with that.
There is an obvious push towards becoming more chase oriented, which is not a direction I disagree with... however... I have a feeling this won't be enough for the big nerfs to her headpop potency.... if she is lacking in chase like I think she will be, I would like to see Workshop Grease also made partially basekit (even just 20% would be nice). Also a slight delay on her ambush roar would also be helpful (much as a love roar spamming).... even these I think will not be enough for the nerfs...
The extra 30 seconds is pretty massive, but the loss of Pig Box auras is a very huge nerf. I can see BVHR doesn't want Pig to be camping boxes and making it so a survivor can't get their trap off... but having both of these penalties makes her RBTs pretty weak... like I'd consider 1 of them a little harsh... but both is pretty frigging rough.
I have a feeling, Pig's high killrate in Low MMR is hurting her here... we're not likely to save RBTs I think, unless we can find a way of making them easier for low level players but still a potent threat...
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652645#Comment_3652645
I feel like the Killer's handbook for survivor consists of 1 rule. Don't give the killer a reason to tunnel you 😏
The killer rule book certainly still exists, especially since 'reasons for tunneling' is encyclopedic just by itself.
But the original 'rule book' included things like 'don't run literal infinites', 'don't permanently sabotage hooks or traps', 'don't use BNP to instantly complete generators from 0'.
All of those things have been addressed and deleted from the game. But now, the rule book has just gotten more entitled over time.
Now, it's things like 'don't play like it's comp by predropping or running to the corner' (usually while the killer tunnels like there's a cash prize), 'don't do gens until the killer builds pressure', 'don't ever use functional tiles or line or sight', 'don't hold w to counter anti loop', 'don't use any useful survivor perks above C tier'.
Which, btw, all of those current reasons (and lots, lots more) are all things people claim are reasons they tunnel.
I was posting for a gag tbh... but reading everything there kinda made my eyes bleed...
Thete isn't even a game there... Why don't we just ask Survivors to trip on hooks for us? xD
In seriousness my one rule, I'll play fair and not play mean, on the condition survivors don't try to deliberately harass, frustrate and annoy me. E.g.
- Running Boil Over Sabo squads.
- Harassing me with 3 flashlights constantly.
- Flip Flop Power Struggle pallet duos.
There are things I'll let go once maybe, but if I'll tend to be much less charitable towards: -
- BU + FTP in my face after I've already demonstrated I'm not tunneling or camping.
- Following me all game with Background Player.
- Body blocking me with OFT and Decisive Strike.
Like stuff like teabags and flashlight clicking I let wash off my back, but things like the above to my mind are taking advantage of the fact I'm not playing mean, and that's where I draw the line.
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Yikes... Ghostface and Pig get hard countered by this.
Tbh, I think all Spine Chill needs it to have its affects provided when within 36 meters and the killer has line of sight of you OR can see your aura.
That gives you a warning against aura revealing perks, which fits the theme of the perk and makes it pretty decent. Would also synergise nicely with Object of Obsession.