UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@mikewelk said:
https://twitter.com/g0rejira/status/1766161396339786066?t=nQ6glDsmHuQXifofkip-DA&s=19
I just don't understand how people enjoy facing Skull Merchant when stuff like this happens so often. They got outplayed at the most unsafe loop on RPD and got rewarded for it??? Yes, the survivor could've crouched, but they would have got M1'd anyways since you need to compensate for server lag and crouch for longer than necessary due to it. Can you even argue that it's avoidable?
Yeah, I'm not a Skull Merchant hater myself, but objectively speaking there are still problems with her kit due to the lack of counter play. 1 of the big issues affecting Meg here is there is no way to remove a stack once she has it, so having 2 at the start of this clip kinda meant she was a done deal no matter what happened....
I'd be interested in your thoughts on my proposed rework:
@UndeddJester said:
I do not have as much hatred for Skull Merchant as others do, and I do think the excessive hatred of this character and insta-quitting against her is unreasonable for sure... but there are objectively problems with her new design that one can't in good faith ignore.
I've argued many times I really like the new scan lines approach to her kit. It isn't binary like the old AoE scan system, and sneaking past the scan lines to head for unhooks, move to gens, etc, is something quite unique to SM. It also offers some skill expression where the SM herself can time direction shifts, which is cool.
I've read many discussions on Skull Merchant, it's usually quite hard to pick out useful feedback from the scores of "just completely rework her" or "just delete her", however there has also been a lot of constructive feedback. Taking the most frequently discussed points, these are the problems with Skull Merchant to my mind: -
- Her kit is overstacked, she pushes 1 button and gets so much for it with basically no thought. There is skill expression in this new set up, but there is no need for it, cause her drone does all the work anyway. Off 1 button she closes loops, goes undetectable, scans get perfect real time mind game info, gets speed boosts, builds up an injury with deep wound and broken, gets hindered after that. It's so stacked up on 1 ability.
- Just like Trapper, some people hit her drones even when not in chase. This would be fine, except this grants SM additional speed against whoever she is chasing, through no fault of their own, punishing a survivor for not making a mistake.
- No means of recovery from gaining a stack. Once it's there it's there for good until you get claw trapped or hooked.
- Taking time shutting down her power doesn't really do anything, because she can recall a drone immediately and just plant it new... in fact it's worse because you basically alert her to your presence.
A lot of people talk about bringing back her old kit now the 3 gen system is in place. I feel like this would be a mistake, but there were some cool things about her old kit that could make a return.
Proposed Rework
- Standardise her speed boosts to be 3% when chasing a scanned survivor, 5% when chasing a claw trapped survivor. Other survivors getting scanned has no effect on her current chase. This keeps a survivor responsible for what happens in their own chase.
- Each time a survivor is scanned, their lock on tracker on HUD turns red to indicate they are on SMs radar. It turns yellow when they are no longer on her radar (12 seconds). This feeds back to the survivor the state of Skull Merchant's power on them to assess the situation accordingly.
- Hacking a drone while on yellow lock on removes a stack. Red lock on will only disable the drone as normal without removing a lock on stack. This ensures a survivor still has to avoid the beams if they want to remove a stack, and can't just yolo up to a trap to eat a stack and instantly remove it. However it does reward them for doing so successfully.
- Remove the deep wound from being claw trapped, and just have the injured and broken state as the penalty for a claw trap. A free injury state is already plenty, and broken means a careless survivor cross map actually gets their penalty even if already injured.
- When scanned again with a claw trap, remove the hindered effect, instead now apply deep wound and the claw trap turns red for the same duration as a scan (12 seconds). Vaulting a pallet with a red claw trap will break the pallet. This will not disable the claw trap, it will instead return to yellow. Her claw traps breaking pallets was a unique part of her old kit. This gives counterplay to survivors via windows but with SM able to read all mind games and moving at 4.8m/s permanently after you, and with bloodlust, you're in trouble.
- IF Skull Merchant is too weak - Apply a 5% hindered effect for 3s to make vaulting windows a slow vault. I don't believe this is necessary, as you can take perks to deal with windows. E.g. Bamboozle, Hex: Crowd Control, etc.
- Recalling a unhacked drone is instantaneous. Recalling a hacked drone requires SM to spend 2 second re-establishing communication with the drone to recall it, her movement is slowed by 85% (1.2m/s) while doing this. This means she can't just keep throwing down drones haphazardly, and a survivor disabling a trap can actually hinder the Skull Merchant. If she runs out she either has to stop to get a broken drone back, or she has to pull a drone from elsewhere that she may want to keep.
Final Thoughts
This probably isn't going to change a lot of the deep rooted opinions of her, but it does at least remove some of the more frustrating and overstacked elements of her new kit, gives her some of the cooler parts of her old kit back, allows good survivors to use their skill against her, and gives a little more information to the survivors to understand what is going on.
Thoughts?
I doubt it'd make her a popular killer, but the hope is to remove some of the more annoying interactions of her kit and at least give Survivors something they could do.
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Huntress on console was a surprise, I expected it to be God awful... but I could actually hit hatchets fairly decently.... yeah I'm not winning any competitions, but it's actually not too bad at all, and a lot of fun to try for long throws.
Another was Singularity on console... I actually posted a bit of a fit about how hard it was to tag survivors on console... but as time has gone on, I've realised I was trying to play them like a generator monitor killer rather than a chase killer, and I wasn't using my ability to shoot the survivor grom my hand to chase after them. Once I got the Singularity mindset down, HUX is actually pretty awesome...
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I hope everyone is aware that Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy. Being very emotionally attached to a specific killer, or spending an enormous amount of time playing a specific killer, doesn’t mean that person understands that killer better than other people. And it certainly doesn’t mean their opinions should count more than other people’s opinions.
Maybe not, but time and practise leads to expertise and knowledge, and there are things like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Someone who doesn't play the character much is more likely to be ignorant of things beyond the surface level due to a lack of experience, and furthermore be unaware of just how much they don't know. This means they are more likely to make flawed assertions about what is best for the character.
Regardless of experience though, we should all strive to remove our bias as much as possible, support our arguments with evidence, and most importantly be willing to listen to and factor in the thoughts and experiences of others to refine our arguments or even change our opinions entirely... but you should also employ reasonable scrutiny, as without scrutiny we poison the well.
If someone makes a well supported argument, only a fool doesn't listen, even if you don't agree, but if you're someone without much experience, there is more onus on you to do your due diligence and ensure your argument is well informed and well supported with evidence if you want to be taken seriously.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671128#Comment_3671128
I am A okay with these suggested changes too for sure! 🙏🏼Truly. Thank you for your time. Means a lot! ❤️
(To be fair, new survivors are already getting stomped by her. I don’t think it’ll much different otherwise one way or the other but as I said, I like your changes) 😄
Hahahaha, it's the same problem as Pig and Pinhead, you can only weaken the side quest so much before it becomes irrelevant...
Maybe after someone has been condemned 3 times in range of the same TV we need a sprite of One Pump Willy appearing on the screen shouting "For the love of God! Grab a Video Tape!" XD
Seriously though, nerfing that global portion and bringing back the old skill expression, as well as fixing up some quirks as you've highlighted here... Onryo would be pretty engaging... the more I think about it, the more awesome it sounds!
She's on the cusp of being really awesome!!! She's so close.
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@ays12151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670843#Comment_3670843
About Green Chilli Add-On. I was thinking and maybe you are right. I made another idea for this Add-On.
All good friend! I would not claim to know myself, I'm just prodding and provoking thought! 😁
1) I just know that the chilli add-ons are pretty good, and the original version you had here made him even better than than taking both add-ons, which... sounds like it becomes his best add-on. 😅
This new change looks like it would be as good as taking both chilli add-ons, but with a little extra bonus, which in conjuction with cleaning up his basekit, makes him pretty scary, without making him oppressive. Nice change!
@ays12151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670843#Comment_3670843
1) Chainsaw Window would be increased by 0.5 seconds in base kit (same as current Award Winning Chili) and Chilli Add-On from my list wouldn't increase it. With this Add-On every Token duration would be 3 seconds (increased from 2.5 seconds). It would be strong Add-On, but I made his Add-Ons in the way where it will not be Overpowred. In my Bubba Concept with even best Add-Ons, Bubba wouldn't be even close to for example Blight, Nurse, Spirit etc etc. He would be B+ Killer and with the best Add-Ons maybe A-.
2) Only Tantrum from bumping into an objects.
3) I didn't want to decrease Tantrum duration by 1, 2 or even more seconds, because it would look very weird if someone would run this Add-On with Chainsaw File. For example 2 or 3 seconds Tantrum would look very weird. With Speed Limiter Bubba should be limited in some situations and this situation is what you mentioned. Good Bubba can hit Survivors through the windows and don't Tantrum.
2) Spot on, makes sense
3) Ooooh! I missed that combo... Fair shout, objective withdrawn!
In that case, solid rework there my guy. Bubba looks scary with these changes, becomes very potent... but gets some nice weaknesses to get rid of his more obnoxius playstyles. Ship it!🤘
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670898#Comment_3670898
First off, I want to thank you for your thoughts and your support, allow me to help make things a little more clear. Thank you again for your message. 🙏🏼❤️
2) Don’t remove lullaby. This is not my suggestion, however it doesn’t need to show up on the VTR.
3) Buff wellstone. An addon that reduces the cooldown when a survivor shuts off a tv. 📺
4) Original value was 1 stack upon taking the tape. Every 25 seconds 1 stack of condemn was created. They can increase it to every 30 seconds but it needs to be there.
Tape editing deck I agree but if they bring back OG tapes, this would apply to this addon so shutting off the tv as soon as they take it to the furthest tv away would be best. I like your idea.
Thank you again for everything ❤️
(I edited a bit my original post)
Good stuff! Cheers for the clear up!
In that case, I don't really have any objections. The tape condemn build up sounds a little high in conjunction with the global TP effect. The main concern would be if condemn is too good, Sadako will go back to aligging for it again...
My worry is a new player will quickly get smashed with condemn if they don't grab a tape, and there are also concerns for certain maps where her condemn build up can be absurb, namely Gideon and alike.
In conjunction with your changes, how would you feel about: -
- Tapes grant a slow build up of condemn at a rate of 1 condemn every 25s.
- Any survivor within 16m range of a powered TV when Sadako teleports to another TV grants 0.5 stacks of condemn.
- Any survivor within 16m range of the TV Sadako telports to gains 1 stack of condemn. Survivors of different elevations will only get 0.5 condemn.
This would hopefully curb some of the oppression she has against low level survivors by giving a bigger buffer to grab a tape before it starts getting crazy. It obviously makes her less destructive on certain maps, and it also make the choice to grab a tape actually meaningful... it is probably in your interest to grab a tape, but doing so will mean you have to start moving to deal with it, so turning it off or not is not quite so binary a choice.
This also makes her lock in a little more meaningful, because each lock in (even if it's just 2), means that the tape build up becomes exponentially harder to deal with as the game goes on.
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I don't disagree with anything here, but your suggested changes are a little unclear, as they are mixed in with your discussing her issues. Your list of changes as best as I can figure are: -
- Improve TV spawns - Agreed. ✔️consistency is good if possible.
- Remove Lullaby to prevent visual lullaby radius from revealing her - Not so convinced. ✖️ Agreed for gameplay... though her creepy audio is really cool and on point for the character... I'd like ideas on how to keep her creepy lullaby in the game... Maybe instead of removing it, making it really large like 48m, so you can't really tell where she is or if she's coming to you or not? I dunno, open to ideas.
- Lower the cooldown? Buff Welstone add-on? - Dunno what you mean here.❌ ... it's not in your add-ons section... so I dunno what you mean here.
- Tapes with passive condemn - Agreed. ✔️ what rate though, considering Sadako can teleport 3 times in 15 seconds for 3 stacks, this can't be too strong. (I can't find the original value anywhere :S)
- Tapes again? See above. ❌
- Tape insertion 1.5s - Agreed. ✔️1 second is a kinda bonkers fast.
- Addons:
- Clump of Hair/Mother's Mirror - Not so keen in conjunction with (2)✖️ If her lullaby is going and she is getting her condemn pressure back... should her stealth be getting much stronger? As someone wIthout the Visual Terror radius it's quite hard to see her coming or work out where she's coming from. I'd feel happier with one or the other.
- VCR - Agreed ✔️ Make the aura part of the add-on too?
- Tape Editting Deck - Agreed ✔️Perhaps leave the TV on for 5 seconds after it's been turned off? That'd be cool.
I think it's also worth thinking about mutli story maps like Gideon or Midwich, where it's stupidly hard to keep condemn off you. Perhaps an elevation effect might be worth considering?
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@ays12151 said:
I made some changes to my last post about my Bubba Buff Concept and I want to share it in here.
The Cannibal | Base Kit Changes
On the screen you can see my suggestions to change Bubba at his Base Kit. I nerfed his Chainsaw while being very close to the hooked Survivor. It would be much easier to juke Bubba and make him to trigger a Tantrum. Additionally the penalty for this Tantrum would be tremendously increased from 5 seconds to 8 seconds. Furthermore I would increase time required to charge a Chainsaw while being near the hook by 20%. It would give Survivors a chance to do a trade at least. Time required to trigger a Tantrum with over revving would be 3 seconds instead of 5. I wanted to make it 2.5 seconds, but it wouldn't work with Add-Ons that increase charge time.
Other changes are buffs to his movement speed and Chainsaw Sweep duration. Additionally, according to last Hillbilly Buff I would also increase his movement speed during the Chainsaw's cooldown.
I would add new Score Event for Chainsaw Hits in Brutality Category. Bubba has massive problems to earn Bloodpoints in that category. It's hard to reach even 5 000 Bloodpoints in this category.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AHHCDQNWERDD/image.png
The Cannibal | Add-On Changes
I tried to make his Add-Ons very carefully. It's very easy to make Add-Ons too strong while buffing also Base Kit of the Killer Power. According to movement speed buffs I slightly nerfed The Beast's Marks & Knife Scratches.
Note: Chainsaw File Add-On would decrease the Tantrum duration & time required to recharge a Chainsaw Charge only when the Tantrum is triggered by bumping into an object.
Note: The Beast's Marks & Depth Gauge Rake Add-Ons have massive penalties according to the advantages these Add-Ons can provide.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1ICRGQCB9UXN/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GY1W9CAT2KJP/image.png
Most of his Add-Ons here would be useful and wouldn't be too strong in my opinion. Strong Add-ons would be very good in right hands, but in the same time these Add-Ons can easily provide a high risk for less experienced Cannibal players. On my list I don't see useless Add-On in my opinion. Cannibal has no mobility and that's why he needs to be strong in chase. I don't believe Cannibal with these buffs would be strong. In my opinion his level would reach to B+ - not higher, because lack of mobility give many solutions for Survivors to outplay him.
Let me know your thoughts and maybe some your ideas? Have a great day!
Most things look really good... just a couple of questions:
1) Chilli
Regarding the green Chilli add-on, with the base chainsaw speed increase, and the base duration increase, 20% here means he gets 3 seconds chainsaw dashes moving at quite a pace. I assume you are including the Chainsaw Dash windows here? Or is that windows remaining at 2.5 to only effectively apply to his final dash?
Only reason I ask, is as a layman, if the 3 second dash is combined with a 3 second dash window, that gives more than both Chilli add-ons combined currently, which if he's moving faster at base, makes this add-on look pretty frigging strong, especially for a green, and when combined with Iridescent Flesh or Beast Marks to nudge things up even further. If it keeps the 2.5 window however... then that effectively only make his last dash benefit from chilli... so that's a significant difference.
I'm a Bubba scrub, so I don't really know... but it sounds strong, and I know Chilli's are a popular add-on. ^^
2) Iridescent Flesh
The 5 seconds lock on tantrum, I assume that only applies to tantrum from hitting terrain, not tantrum built up from revving? Cause you seem to have done quite a bit of work to make hook camping ineffective... and yet this add-on seems like it can remove it ^^
3) Tantrum Charges 4 & 5 - Speed Limiter
For Speed Limiter, the fact you already don't instant down is a pretty massive penalty... and likely you'll be hitting walls trying to make your single hits count... and without a down on a healthy survivor, a tantrum of 7.5s is pretty damn punishing here. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the tantrum reduction, like the opposite to beasts marks?
Otherwise, pretty damned solid far as I can see.
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Kindred is pretty nice, shores up the weakness by continuing to provide your team auras even when you get hooked, or find other players needing healing while someone else is hooked, as well as give you killer info.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670266#Comment_3670266
I understand your perspective but nevertheless it is an extremely common playstyle for this killer—because it works. Tunneling a vulnerable survivor out who is unable to participate in the objective is more efficient than spreading pressure. It’s just like the Sadako condemned strategy, really: while it’s not the way the character is meant to be played it catapults her kill rates because it offers no real counter play. Maybe it doesn’t work so well with high level players but low to mid where most players fall, Pig’s ability to harass survivors with RBTs cleans house. I’ve done it myself a few times. It’s cheap, easy, and virtually guarantees a 4K. In my experience players will prioritize trying to remove the head trap over anything else. And if you keep pushing them off the boxes or even slug them, they become desperate and essentially throw the game or simply die to the trap.
While I understand where your point is coming from, 1 thing that just doesn't make sense in your argument, is how is doing this more effective than regular tunneling at low MMR? You can go for it if you want... but it's extremely inefficient.
If you go after a head trapped survivor either chasing or downing them, you pause the timer. That is literally identical to regular tunneling... as the head trap might as well not exist, and any notion a Pig RBT helps you tunnel by virtue of survivors panicking to get a trap off, loses out with even a minor level of thought spared to the myriad of Killers way better tunneling than Pig... e.g. Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Xeno, Demogorgon and ofc Pyramid Head, and whole slew of others with way more efficient anti-loop and chase down powers...
If you try to kill a survivor by crouching after them to pop their head... you end up wasting so much time doing this. It's 2 and half minutes... 3 survivors left alone for that length of time should be able to pop 3 or 4 gens easily, even in the lowest of low MMRs and even with things like Deadlock to slow them down... Do also bear in mind they already popped 1 in order for the trap to be active, and that also doesn't count any of the progress they got during the time you had to chase or down the survivor...
Maybe you're referring to some kind of hybrid playstyle, where you regularly check in on boxes.... but then ofc if we assume you're trying to trap multiple survivors, there is also the possibility they complete searches and they had the 1 or 2 trap all along, unless you get at least 3 out, you can't bank of a 4 box trap to net you your kill... and if you're getting 3 traps out there, you're leaving time for people to get traps off... so I just can't see how you can call this a genuine gamebreaking problem that needs hefty nerfs to resolve...
If its such a significant problem, why isn't it done by every Pig player? It isn't... because it's crap and doesn't win you the game most of the time against anyone even remotely competant.... and even if you constantly score 4ks, you're gonna go up against people where it won't work eventually... and once you reach that point it'll almost never work. They'll happily tea bag you to death with 1 hooks and 0 kills.
The only reason its even remotely viable right now is scream builds... this is unfun true enough, and something that would be much healthier to target with nerfs, which none of the proposed nerfs in PTB did. However importantly, even with scream builds... the Pig is still FAAAAAR from overpowered.
Head pops only come in when Pig's are trying to win, when they get the RNG, identify the RNG, move to captialise on the RNG, and survivors meanwhile don't notice it. Radiant's game vs. Knightlight highlights this perfectly, and is a shining example of high level non tunnel Pig play... and as Radiant will admit... that game was on a knife edge that needed the RNG and survivors to make a bad mistake in order to win... You can hardly call that an overpowered killer that can't be countered.
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I get this too. Anyone needing a temp solution to this, you can save your state by: -
- Return to main menu.
- Open the options menu.
- Changing a setting. I use the Beta tab and modify the FoV slider up 1 and back again.
- Then save and close.
You'll know its saved when you see the 3 red entity claws spiral in.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669859#Comment_3669859
I got the notification it says drinks at the local watering hole
Straight up, I'll hit you up on drinkfinder.com when they actually push it live. We better not get Sadako'd in the 11th hour xD
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669859#Comment_3669859
I didnt get a notification, but my Pig senses tickled.
I appreciate that they went back on one of the nerfs. But i stand by my point, that they should have taken their time to erase the screaming-playstyle instead of punishing all Pig players.
"pushing her over the top" just made me chuckle. They agreed, that a survivor literally cant do anything against a Nurse that is on point, but little ol piggy with her smol dash is where they draw the line?
Overall, im disappointed, that they didnt do their work to make a healthy change, but im glad that they didnt just push it live.
How do you guys feel about it?
I am pretty happy given what could have happened...
The loss of Pig box auras is a nuisance, but it is still something you can account for with good guesstimation, or taking aura perks if really needed... overall its a trade I'd accept the chase buffs for.
Only concern now is the inevitable crack from survivors when she can still force head pops... but if we keep the same party line, hopefully will be fine?
P.S. I apologise... I've totally stolen your Pig nose signiature... it's a lot of fun to craft faces around... and I now can't help myself...
^🐽~
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Personally I like the idea of having a standard number of bottles, but only you only have 1 tonic bottle for the instant down effect.
The antidote would allow you to catch up and smash a survivor with it easy enough if you use it well, but a survivor can of course make use of the antidote too, and against a skilled survivor you're not able to use other tonic bottles to get the disorientation and limit their ability to reach safety at tiles anymore.
Would need the opinion of a skilled Clown, but having the Clown mostly play around his antidotes instead of his Tonics, having to be careful to ensure when he does use his tonic he can actually hit the shot AND score a hit, feels like a significant gameplay shift that would make him at least more interesting in terms of build routes.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669886#Comment_3669886
I didn’t think she needed any nerfs besides of scream builds, but that got ignored.
I hoped they buff her traps, but no.
Hopefully they surprise us.
Indeed, I think the problem BHVR has is Pig does perfom quite a lot better vs. your average low/mid player than most killers... so I was half expecting nothing to be done, and just have to eat that nerf. Just getting 1 of those nerfs removed in exchange for the chase buffs is a blessing I will not spit at, and the aura read nerf can be accounted for and worked around, whereas the 30s timer just kills all her tactile play outright.
Given what it could have been, it ain't nothing to sneeze at. 5 more days until launch... hopefully no unpleasant suprises... 🤞
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Interesting changes... not what I or I think anyone was expecting...
The timer change is the big one, I felt this was the wrong solution to Pig's trolling player problems... with this reverted she keeps her head trap pressure as well as her slowdown so her tactile gameplay and identity is still there, which is great. The box auras being gone is a bit of a nuisance, though I suppose on a rethink, you can still apply the same tactile logic even if you don't know exactly where the Pig boxes are, as long as you keep a good handle on where events are taking place and you don't get spun around...
That said it's undeniable that following survivors off hook and using screams to force head pops is very much still a thing. I do find the fact tampered timer remains untouched and most importantly scream builds untouched rather surprising... I was sure that at least one of them was up for the chop if the timer change got reverted... I guess BHVR want screams on Pig to be relevant I suppose...
I can't say I disagree with these changes... absolutely not gonna complain, I'm very happy... but I have a feeling there may still be some backlash...
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The All Things Wicked PTB has come and gone. As always, our team has discussed the feedback you’ve shared with us on all the new and changed content, and we’ve prepared a series of adjustments which will be made before this update goes live. In this post, we’ll go through each of them and provide a brief explanation of our…
@radiantHero23 @Nun_So_Vile @AbsolutGrndZer0 @Vanishlord @Atsuka_Anarchy
Well... that was not expected...
So we still lose the Jigsaw box auras... but we haven't got the extra 30s on the timer...
It is curious that screams have been left unchecked, I was really expecting that to get nerf batted... I suppose your average Pig can't really get head pops just by patrolling jigsaw boxes, though nothing to stop a Pig following someone off hook and doing it (though that is throwing the game), but the more viable strategy of using screams to do it remains unchecked.... I guess BHVR want screams to remain a thing I suppose.
I feel like there is gonna be backlash for this, so I suppose we all should stick to our same rhetoric really... but overall, I'll accept this line up of changes.
EDIT: Just for interest... I have added your names as part of an edit as I forgot originally... do you guys get a notification when I do this? Or not?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669522#Comment_3669522
I wish Plagues mori...instead of vomiting on them turned it into a kiss of death thing where she inserts the vomit mouth to mouth.
Exactly my thought my guy, that's just a baaaaaaaad day, no matter how tough you are 😬
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Singularity has to be the mori that goes hard. Having your face melted off while you're still alive is pretty nasty...
Though, if Plague's mori gets visually updated to go all the way with what it is implying, where she vomits her putrescence down your throat... that seems a slow, agonising, and vile way to go 😨
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@Atsuka_Anarchy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658118#Comment_3658118
I concur with the aforementioned suggestions. I do think that the timer shouldn’t stop even as the trapped Survivor searches since it removes the lore-wise thrill and urgency to remove the trap at the last possible second before snap It’s a climatic finish. *Live or die, the choice is yours*
But the increased Trap timer really reduces the panic to remove since they have more allotted to them, therefore gen completion is most likely STILL a priority. The choice is made easier, rather than approaching the situation more carefully and the threat is not even a factor. It never really was to begin with, it was the play style that mainly made the difference.
We can only wait and see what, if any, further changes will be made.
Aye, at least the tension is maintained by virtue of the Pig herself being able to interrupt.
It's a difficult one, because unfortunately Pig performs quite well at low MMR, so it gives her a high average kill rate... as such it's very unlikely we'd get away with no nerfs whatsoever, even if realistically we know she doesn't need nerfs.
Our suggested nerfs are still a little much, but it's better than the current changes gutting her RBTs completely...
Though the PTB was quite civil... back in the regular world of DBD it's getting a little hard to poke your head up and point out any value to RBT strength without taking suppressing fire...
O🐽o
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668661#Comment_3668661
My biggest worry for Pig is her ambush is effectively a long lunge. It doesn't take a lot of skill to use beyond knowing the tiles and timing when to use it. It is very easy to control.
so all m1 killer take no skill to play?
You make them able to wind up and charge at the speed of Spirit without being blind whenever they like, then yes.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669127#Comment_3669127
BHVR are very serious about making sure that they do representation correctly. At least that's the vibes I get from them. They got a subcontractor to make sure they were implementing it properly, and it wasn't rushed at all. They genuinely care about doing it right.
It seems that some people (not necessarily you specifically) have the opinion however that anything more than a very brief passing mention is "forcing it", though. A lot of people dismiss queer expression as "making it their entire personality", which is just wrong. I've experienced this personally.
Someone's sexuality is likely going to be a pretty big part of their identity. Same with gender, origin, etc. It's going to influence who they are as a person, and that's completely fine. That doesn't make a character one-dimensional or "token representation".
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669127#Comment_3669127
There is a lot to unpack here but as someone who is part of the community here are some of my thoughts to consider.
"forcing it unnaturally"
Never understood this claim. Do you have some examples in mind?
"Most characters in the game have no mention of their sexual orientation whatsoever... because it isn't important to their character/story."
If we are talking about DBD specifically. Yes, relationship aren't mentioned a whole lot in DBD backstories. Saying it's "not important" I would disagree. It would depend on how much character development you want.
"You could play Nader for months and never even realise she was homosexual, because none of her voice lines, her main profile, her look, her mannerisms, none of it drew attention to it."
I can't speak to that character because I don't know her. While I appreciate that yes, it's nice when media doesn't always revert to a stereotype some people are just like that and I don't see why those people should be excluded from representation too just because it's "in your face about it"
"At the end of the day people are people, and my personal view on it is, whilstsoever you have to make a big deal out of someone's race, skin colour, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation... you're not really solving the problem."
If we lived in an ideal world, but we don't. I heard this once. I can't recall who said it sorry.
"When a Black woman sees herself in the mirror, she sees a Black woman. When a white woman sees herself in the mirror, she sees a woman. When a white man sees himself in the mirror, he sees a human being."
It's rings very true or any marginalized group.
It's not usually us that are making a "deal out" of our "race, skin colour, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation"
Society is always reminding us of our status but if we ask for representation we are told we are forcing the issue.
Bit of a ramble sorry.
As I say, if its done well then no problem.
I do have quite an extensive list of examples I could point to, but I don't really want to go pointing fingers at examples for how to do it right or wrong. Such a debate would be highly likely to escalate, as we're already started to see.
My view is, when it comes to real people or fictional characters, I've related to, rooted for, empathised with and idolised male, female, black, hispanic, asian, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, old, young, straight, homosexual, transvestite and transsexuals.
I don't care what the origin of a character is, if their morals and values are in line with my own, or at the very least I can understand their morales given their circumstances, then we've got a character I will enjoy... but whoever a character is, yes their relationships form a part of who they are... but it is a relatively small part of a person. It is their beliefs, morales, principles, skills, desires, weaknesses that define a person...
Their actions in the face of challenges, and overcoming their weaknesses is why we root for and respect them. We don't respect someone because someone or something just tells us how great they are, and a lot of stories involving diverse characters are too afraid to give them flaws or weaknesses to overcome, because that doesn't pass tne vibe check for diversity and inclusion.
Anyway, that's what I want in character... a person, a human being, with flaws, weaknesses, ambititons and values I can empathise with.
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As someone who is not part of the LGBT community, I want to say I have no issue with more characters being homosexual, trans, or whatever.
What I would say though is there is an argument for less is more and being subtle. One of the big failings of modern entertainment in both movies and games is where people try too hard to meet diversity quotas, and end up forcing it unnaturally, and peiple can smell that BS from a mile away. When you set out to make a character specifically to fill a diversity quota, it is very hard to make the character genuine, because there is this natural need to highlight which diversity quota you're hitting.
Most characters in the game have no mention of their sexual orientation whatsoever... because it isn't important to their character/story. Take anyone's backstory and try to find a place to slot it in naturally... it's very hard to do without it being forced.
One of the best LGBT characters I remember was a character named Nader from Dirty Bomb. There was essentially nothing to tell you that she was a lesbian, except an innocuous line hidden deep in the long version of her character backstory in tne back end of her profile that said something to the effect of "when you make the decision to leave your wife to rejoin the mercenary lifestyle, there is always gonna be tension". It was something you discovered naturally without even looking for it. You could play Nader for months and never even realise she was homosexual, because none of her voice lines, her main profile, her look, her mannerisms, none of it drew attention to it. She was a character first... who happemed to be lesbian, and it wasn't at all in your face about it. David is similar in this regard. There is almost nothing to tell you he is gay without you actually looking for it.
At the end of the day people are people, and my personal view on it is, whilstsoever you have to make a big deal out of someone's race, skin colour, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation... you're not really solving the problem.
So sure, have more LBTQ characters, but don't force it. If you make the fact they're LGBT their entire personality, and the only reason they are being added to the game, you're setting that character up to fail.
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@BlightedTrapper said:
I'm glad to see a Pig main actually embrace moving more towards a chase-oriented playstyle. Every other Pig main I'm seeing on here is throwing a huge fit that they can't abuse her miserable tactics anymore.
You think so? Most of the Pig mains I've seen have been pretty reasonable, level headed, fair, and quite accommodating to others point of view, regardless of whether or not they agree with each other or not. There is only 1 instance I can think of (outside of obvious trolling) where the discussion boiled over to being quite uncivil, and it was posts like this one that stirred the pot in that direction.
Most examples I saw in the PTB were similar to this thread, where both sides of the debate took the time to respond at length to arguments put forward by people and generally been reasonably strong at presenting arguments with pretty strong evidence and sound reasoning one way or another.
If that's how you represent those discussions, I'm afraid I have to call you out and say it kinda seems like everything Pig mains in favour of RBTs say is just white noise to you, and just gets straw manned into "tunnel for head pops, toxic pig main".
Thankfully there are quite a few people on this forum one can have a solid conversation with.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668877#Comment_3668877
That's why it should work like Overcharge. If you leave the gen, you will still get skill check. If you miss, you will lose 10% progress. That would be fair for both sides.
What would your thoughts be on counting as a missed skillcheck if the killer hits you during that skill check?
The scenario this would matter is, for example if a killer comes to grab you on a 99'd gen, but gets rewound by the server to instead m1 you, but as you run, you get a skillcheck. If you hit a great, you still finish the generator in the killers face while running away, even though you got grabbed on the killers screen.
Edit: Alternatively skillchecks hit while running away only count as goods, and thus do not progress the gen to avoid scenarios such as this?
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Regarding the ambush change... I'd prefer it be triggered at roughly 60~70% of her ambush charge. If used in conjunction with an ambush charge speed buff, would be quite nice.
Though the loss of the memes is the big sad.
@Blueberry said:
They could make her anti loop the best one in the game and I’d still rather have her current version. We already have a dozen other killers with an anti loop, we don’t need another. Her macro play with traps is what made her unique and fun. Better anti loop isn’t making her more fun than what we’re losing, regardless of how good it is.
In a completely isolated conversation about the roar though, yes, the roar playing so early is a huge part of what makes it weak. Make it after the charge is complete.
Indeed. Everyone loves dash killers though, so her dash is where people want all the buffs to go, and unfortunately anything that doesn't feed into the basic gameplay loop must be nerfed to floor. I am waiting to see what BHVR will do, I am quietly optimistic they've got this.... but the way a big portion of the community is pushing her concerns me.
My biggest worry for Pig is her ambush is effectively a long lunge. It doesn't take a lot of skill to use beyond knowing the tiles and timing when to use it. It is very easy to control, so it's balance is the fact it can be countered by dropping pallets and holding W away from tiles. This strategy is a little too good in live currently... so the buffs are welcome, but pushing too far this way is a mistake to my mind.
Other killers with dashes, like Wesker, Chucky, Oni, Hillbilly, Blight, Nurse are all offset by the fact that using their dash requires precision and takes some skill in of itself to aim... Pig's dash does not do this, which is why it is weak. A strong Pig dash would be more like a 4.6m/s Spirit who can see... if it becomes a really good dash that wins most exchanges, it'll become cheap with how easy it would be to use, and that's what people will complain about next. Pig will become a no skill, cheap anti loop killer the way she is being pushed, and hated just like Skull Merchant, Artist and Knight because of the "no skill" anti loop they possess.
We're killing her head trap macro gameplay, to make her a dash killer.... and she'll always teeter on being too weak to rival any strong anti-loop killers and need her slowdown to artificially prop up her weak anti-loop, or it'll be too strong for loops, and the Pig will be a hated cheap anti-loop killer.
If worst comes to worst, I guess there is always Trapper and Hag if people want to play a more tactical killer. Finding quirky little trap spots for Trapper and maintaining your web on Hag is quite fun.
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@Caiman said:
Hillbilly should have an add-on that disables Overdrive, at least. Then combine it with Cracked Primer Bulb for the ultimate Billy meme build.
This 100% would be awesome. (I vote for Speed Limiter as the add-on).
It would be a really nice touch, because their rework makes Hillbilly stronger, more viable, etc, but this add-on would effectively allow people to play "classic" Billy.
Considering at his release he was the most loved killer in the game, that would be a great nod/homage to OG Billy, rather that it just be buried in patch versions and the annuls of history. The fact a number of his add-ons have also been made basekit, means you can effectively play original Hillbilly and celebrate DBDs history without it even really being a meme.
I also think it'd be great for learning Billy, as you could play this add-on to get a feel and work on your precision for Billy at base, then upgrade to Overdrive Billy once you've learned the fundamentals.
Please do this BHVR.
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@RobinVouz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667761#Comment_3667761
I don't think my suggestions takes anything away from her slowdown however. You're still able to track where boxes are, as you actively find boxes through patrolling generators, and can still time how long a survivor takes off traps. I disagree with this being an unnecessary annoyance (re: shared forum) as it's not going to be difficult to remember where these boxes are. Compare this to killers such as Pinhead, Wesker, Nemesis and Singularity who can interrupt survivors countering their power, but don't have auras for these counters. This change brings Pig in line with every other killer, and I believe is the only killer able to track these counters until now.
This update simply stops holding your hand and makes it more difficult to do so (and arguably increases the skill required in doing this). People used to Pig won't have an issue with this, as they'll generally know where boxes spawn from playing as Pig across difficult maps anyway. I also don't think this will be as detrimental to newer players as suggested (re: shared forum). Her slowdown is also still the same as it was and untouched - she still has that unique slowdown. The only thing this stops is forcing headpops, where forcing insta-kills isn't healthy for the game for any killer. You're still able to do the above, you just don't have the auras to do so at the very start of the game, nor are you able to have a survivor die in front of you. While +15 seconds is enough to deny a headpop (re: shared forum), I think it's worth remembering the vast majority of games are also solo queue where survivors won't delay generators, nor will they consider this. I think it's very important to look at this across skill levels and scenarios the most effective counters to Pig all require consistent teamwork and communication. Regardless you're still able to interrupt the box searches, it's just no longer right in front of you.
She's still able to get kills via mindgames, and if anything this is still the optimal way to play her (mindgames through concealing her terror radius, through her ambush via flicking or heading one direction only to head back, and of course remembering where box locations are). Survivors will still be running mindlessly into you, and I'd argue there's going to be more cases of trapped survivors running into you due to the increased timer making them risk the odd altruistic event here and there which overall leads to a more reactive game.
I do agree about how problematic scream builds are however, though feel I'm sitting on "keep the changes and remove scream interruptions", as the timer is unfortunately too low when it comes to playing against newer survivors who haven't had experience playing against Pig, which is also likely where this change came from. I think this is something important to keep in mind.
Regardless, I really do appreciate your engagement and even just taking the time to sift through the very long post. I really like the healthy discussion, and it's nice to see different perspectives on these changes 💜
Indeed it's been pleasant ^🐽^
Regarding your points, I suppose where I sit is I don't see any value to tracking boxes at all now. Yeah you can do it, and interrupt survivors on jigsaw boxes... but why would you? Your time is more valuable than the survivors time, which means if a head pop is impossible, even if you see a head trapped survivor, there is basically no point to doing anything related to that survivor unless they are giving you a massively free down, or literally picking their nose and wasting huge swathes of time. Literally you just ignore a head trapped survivor, period, almost without exception.
On old Pig is was rarely profitably to go after survivors with head traps outside of forcing it with scream builds (at least since her RNG got locked to 12 searches guaranteed with 5 Jigsaw boxes, which was a great change)... but occassionally, it was profitable, and being able to identify those opportunities (especially if you accounted for that possibility coming up) was very satsifying, even if overall the Pig is weak... Like Trapper, it feels good when a plan comes together, even if more often than not you're eating pallets and teabags to the face 80% of the time.
There is a truth, that some players actively threw the game jsut to ensure a person died... I can't deny that... and I guess the conclusion of this debate is, if this nuanced part of her play has to be sacrificed on the altar to ensure that noone can be a jerk, then so be it... but... make sure you actually make it so that noone can be a jerk via nuking scream builds too and then go hard making her a viable dash killer.
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@RobinVouz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667690#Comment_3667690
Thanks for the reply! My proposed feedback overall does emphasise the power over the traps as I feel a passive power shouldn't be something that should be strong to begin with, versus a more powerful active power. Her active ability is overall still not as strong as say Chucky or Wesker, and one that's still situational and harder to use to tunnel survivors. I think the traps shouldn't be something Pig should think about other than putting on survivors, and instead it's something survivors need to think about. I think it's easy to ignore the fact that spending three seconds to put on a trap that steals up to 48 seconds of the survivors time (more with the Gears add-ons) is still an incredibly powerful ability regardless of whether you get a kill. Regardless, I feel a Pig tunneling a survivor with the ambush, which is an ability the survivor can interact with and try to avoid, is still overall much healthier than Pig forcing head trap kills at Jigsaw Boxes where survivors rarely have time to even heal up.
I think the Chucky and Wesker comparisons are very fair, but Chucky is notoriously strong to the point I feel he needs rebalanced himself, with Wesker being in an overall okay position, with perhaps his slowdown passive rebalanced in line with Pig's passive being brought down. I also think Chucky's stealth capabilities should further be reduced to help retain Pig's identity, as Chucky's stealth and dash are currently better than Pig's. I think it's worth remembering that Pig is one of, if not the original dash killer. While this is 'homogenising' her as a dash killer, I think this instead focuses on buffing her ability to make her stand out more compared to other dash killers which is why I've tried emphasising this. I'd disagree about her having nothing interesting of her own as she's still a stealth killer as well (which is again why I'd like Chucky to see a reduction in his stealth). Otherwise, she's currently a killer who can insta-kill with traps with a weak dash power, which just isn't healthy nor fun for the game in my opinion!
Oh a point I forgot to add!
If we're gonna continue on with the current nerfs to her RBTs as in the PTB, then yes 100% agree with your changes. If the goal is to make her RBTs lethality non-existant, and purely for slowdown, then yes, absolutely, go all in on her dash.
The scream change needs to happen, cause that is the problem playstyle, even with the changes. So nuke that, then jack her dash up. Won't be a fan of it myself, but at least she'll be somewhat viable, so thumbs up for that! ^^
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@RobinVouz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667690#Comment_3667690
Thanks for the reply! My proposed feedback overall does emphasise the power over the traps as I feel a passive power shouldn't be something that should be strong to begin with, versus a more powerful active power. Her active ability is overall still not as strong as say Chucky or Wesker, and one that's still situational and harder to use to tunnel survivors. I think the traps shouldn't be something Pig should think about other than putting on survivors, and instead it's something survivors need to think about. I think it's easy to ignore the fact that spending three seconds to put on a trap that steals up to 48 seconds of the survivors time (more with the Gears add-ons) is still an incredibly powerful ability regardless of whether you get a kill. Regardless, I feel a Pig tunneling a survivor with the ambush, which is an ability the survivor can interact with and try to avoid, is still overall much healthier than Pig forcing head trap kills at Jigsaw Boxes where survivors rarely have time to even heal up.
I think the Chucky and Wesker comparisons are very fair, but Chucky is notoriously strong to the point I feel he needs rebalanced himself, with Wesker being in an overall okay position, with perhaps his slowdown passive rebalanced in line with Pig's passive being brought down. I also think Chucky's stealth capabilities should further be reduced to help retain Pig's identity, as Chucky's stealth and dash are currently better than Pig's. I think it's worth remembering that Pig is one of, if not the original dash killer. While this is 'homogenising' her as a dash killer, I think this instead focuses on buffing her ability to make her stand out more compared to other dash killers which is why I've tried emphasising this. I'd disagree about her having nothing interesting of her own as she's still a stealth killer as well (which is again why I'd like Chucky to see a reduction in his stealth). Otherwise, she's currently a killer who can insta-kill with traps with a weak dash power, which just isn't healthy nor fun for the game in my opinion!
Is fair points. Though I guess it depends on what you find fun I suppose. A lot of the arguments around this Pig rework tend to fall to the black and white extremes "Pig force head pops" vs. "Pig dash buffs and RBTs purelynfor slowdown". I personally saw it as far more of a grey argument.
Did you ever see the feedback in the PTB section from was worked on collaboratively with the Pig mains in this forum?
There is a link to the backup version:
@UndeddJester said:
Edit: Preserving for austerity when the PTB forum closes. 🤘🐽🤘
First of all, BHVR, we are a humble group of Pig players who want to thank you for turning attention to our Killer. We would like to go on the record as saying we believe your intent for the Pig is coming from the correct place. We have discussed the changes at length and this is our findings regarding our beloved lady.
Her Chase
Enhancing her chase is a welcome improvement many of us have been eagerly waiting for, and we certainly approve of these changes to her crouch speed, crouch movement speed, and ambush duration/recovery. These changes have made noticeable differences in her performance at a variety of loops, such as the car loop tile on the Garden of Joy map, going around shorter loops around tiles, going around rubble & objects into straightaways, and expanding on the number of tiles she can catch survivors on in general.
However, despite these buffs she is plagued by the same issues as before, where using any pre-dropping, any semi-decent pallet, and holding W to run away as she attempts to ambush, will still beat her. These same tiles and strategies lead to her buffs becoming relatively negligible in practice; crouching makes her lose distance while the survivor simply drops the pallet and runs away to gain more distance, ergo she is prevented from using her killer ability. This makes her ambush and crouch buffs unreliable to use across a variety of similar situations, and is apparent on even her strongest maps for stealth/ambushing like Midwich. We do not think the current list of changes will bring about the intended outcome of keeping the Pig viable in their current state.
We would appreciate more buffs in this department. With this in mind, we know you cannot make her unreasonably strong, so we encourage you to take into close consideration the slowdown brought on by her Reverse Bear Traps (RBTs). Promoting unfun playstyles is the last thing we ask for, but it is apparent that these initial number buffs are just not enough to bring Pig past how she performs currently overall.
Why RBTs need toning down
We acknowledge that buffs to her chase will require a tradeoff, and the strength of her RBTs should absolutely correlate to the strength of her chase. Throughout a number of recent updates, there has been a rise in the number of strong scream perks, which has facilitated a less engaging and unfun playstyle for the Pig. Chasing off Pig boxes and forcing pops was always possible, however, the time efficiency of doing so was quite bad due to the need to force a survivor to let go, and the timer is halted while in a chase. With the addition of perks like Hex: Face the Darkness and Ultimate Weapon, interrupting boxes has become both easier and more viable to force head pops, with little counterplay for survivors outside of Calm Spirit. We do understand that something needs to be done about this playstyle.
Why the current nerfs aren't the solution
The current nerfs are:
- The Pig can no longer see the auras of Jigsaw Boxes
- Reverse Bear Traps now have a base timer of 3 minutes (was 2.5 minutes)
We want to stress, these nerfs do not solve the problems players are having with Pig.
The extra 30s makes forcing a head pop kill longer, more tedious, and less profitable, but ultimately it doesn't prevent a Pig from doing it. It is just as much throwing the game as before; however it just means the obnoxious Jigsaw box playstyles require a more direct commitment to do. It does not prevent the Pig from tunneling the first surv they see with a trap on their head. There have been massive discussions about how this hurts regular Pig play, which have typically gotten quite heated so we won't be dredging that up again, but these nerfs affect every Pig regardless of play style, even if the overall time denied survivors from searching boxes is the same. Survivors have counterplay if they work as a team and delay gen pops in line with when survivors get trapped; just allowing 15 seconds for the survivor to get a head start on boxes is enough to prevent a head pop. This +30s change undeniably hurts the overall pressure provided by her Jigsaw boxes, and working around and accounting for that pressure was always what drew people to the Pig, similar to how setting up as Trapper and having it pay off down the road was immensely satisfying, even if the Killer isn't especially strong.
The denial of auras is more an annoyance than anything, it means that the highest level of Pig play will result in a need to memorize Pig box spawns, which is just an unnecessary irritation and makes Pig less accessible to newer players because of the random spawning algorithm. On indoor maps, because they are small maps you can even accidently run into a survivor doing the box cause of how they spawn, and effectively tunnel head pops just playing the game... Futhermore, it doesn't address the problematic play style at all, as the Pig's who want to tunnel or force head pops will run Hex: Face the Darkness, Ultimate weapon, and maybe even aura perks to simply chase down survivors they want to pop anyway. Again this is hurting the regular Pig play style more than the problem Pig play style.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NIY1BNHRRMCP/5u1ttouh.jpg
Thankyou! @C3Tooth it's perfect! Nothing but love BHVR, but the quote was too good to pass up on🤘🐽🤘
Our Proposed Solution
Instead of the nerfs proposed, we aim to target the issues Survivors are facing directly:
- An active Bear Trap can no longer trigger while the survivor is still searching Jigsaw Boxes. (While searching, the timer will stop at 99.99%, and letting go at this point will immediately kill the survivor)
- And either: -
- Screams do not interrupt survivors working on Jigsaw boxes. <- (Direct scream nerf for all scenarios, WE PREFER THIS)
- Letting go of a Jigsaw box will regress progress at a rate of 1 c/s <- (Better future-proofing for other types of interrupt, but screams still can cause a pop if on the last box and the timer is spent... maybe rare enough to not matter?)
These changes maintain the threat of a head trap and keeps the macro game of the Pig intact, where interrupting a survivor at select moments ensures sub-optimal choices from the survivors overall and buys pressure and time.
In the same breath, these changes eliminate the 2 most hated parts of the Pig's traps.
- That hopeless situation where it's impossible to get a head trap off even if you reach the final box.
- Being constantly reset on progress by a Pig forcing you to scream.
We want people to enjoy playing against the Pig, and our hope is that these changes keep the tenseness of the head trap, while also eliminating the nastier play styles. Any Pig trying to head pop you, can't just use a scream to interrupt your progress, they now have to actively push you off a box, which will pause the chase timer. We envision moments where people who don't know about the head trap being unable to pop while searching will be holding their breath hoping they can get their trap off in time, while those players who are aware will be holding their breath, hoping the Pig doesn't find them in that moment (similar to how being the last survivor committing to open the gate is a rush hoping the Killer doesn't happen to find you at that moment).
With this, we feel the Pig will be nicer to play, maintain her fear factor for survivors without being obnoxious, and be more engaging and fun for everyone.
Thanks for taking the time to read!
Signed the Society of Swine
@radiantHero23 @Nun_So_Vile @Vanishlord @UndeddJester @AbsolutGrndZer0 @BlackRose89
We will be monitoring this chat, so if you want to sign these changes too let us know in this thread or via PM!
Cheers!
But to keep it short, the Pig was a more tactile killer to my mind, with the weaker chase meaning she has to get downs purely via mind games, but the RBTs gave her the time to do so, while also providing a mind game in of themselves. Any good Pig player will tell you don't tunnel a head trapped survivor with Pig, as you aren't using the 3vs1 and slowdown it gives you if you do.
The more advanced way of playing around RBTs was to keep a mental tab of roughly how long it took a survivor to get a head trap off, and use that to determine your longer traps.
With this you could track where the boxes were and predict where survivors would likely path to get RBTs off. You can't bank on this, cause its still RNG, so you still chase other survivors off gens, but if you do keep tabs on it and you end up chasing into that part of the map, you will be finding yourself with more opportunities and pressure.
The main strength of RBTs was that they can lead to an easy down if a survivor runs mindlessly into you while on a time crunch, or if their teammates run you mindlessly towards them while trying to save themselves, only to mess their teammate up further. This is why coordinated teams tend to run rings around the Pig, these opportunities become quite rare. Deapite that being ready to capitalise on these opportunities is what separated good Pig players from really good ones. This more tactile way of looking at it was interesting, and certainly not as black/white as "force a survivor with a headtrap to die with no counter".
What has undeniably become a problem though is you can artificially create these scenarios currently with scream builds. This is what we highlight in our feedback post, and why we suggest tackling scream builds, not tne tactile play around her RBTs.
Ultimately your take would result in the Pig being decently strong. It would to my mind though remove all the above nuance from her RBTs and make her a relatively meh dash killer with a pretty uninteresting slowdown to compensate. I personally see more value going the anti-scream build route, as the Pig's slowdown is by far the most unique trait she has, while dash killers are a dime a dozen. The dash buffs are nice, but I'd be against jacking these up much further and making her a dash killer first and a slowdown killer second.
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Interesting read, do let me try and summarise to make sure I've understood correctly: -
Nerfs: -
- Immunity to screams on Jigsaw boxes.
- Chase begins even when crouched within range of a survivor.
Buffs: -
- Decreased crouching time to be similar to Ghost Face's crouch/stand up speed.
- Increase ambush movement speed basekit.
- Decrease ambush charge time basekit.
- Increase Jigsaw boxes searches by 1-2 seconds, adding 12-24 seconds of slowdown overall (144 to 156-168).
Reworks: -
- Status effects removed from head trap add-ons and move to ambush.
Would be a fine direction to go I suppose. I do approve of removing screams from the equation. To my mind, this was the only problem the Pig had. You take away screams as a problem, then pretty much all issues of the Pig go away, and I feel like all the other changes to her RBTs aren't needed at all, since without screams Pig is just like any other M1 killer trying to tunnel (and because her dash isn't especially good, she is throwing the game by not using the slowdown of her RBTs, so this is fine IMO).
Though I would argue these changes you propose pushes even more empahsis on the Pigs dash over her RBTs... to the point the RBTs basically feel tacked on to her weaker (though not that weak anymore with your other changes) dash power in an attempt to keep her somewhat passably viable, and otherwise something you don't even think about. The obvious problem to me, is with the dash changes the Pig gets better at tunneling, and so basically becomes like every other killer in the game
I do find myself wondering why play Pig instead of say Chucky or Wesker, who don't even need to stop/crouch to use their dashes, who's skill expression doesn't need to be artificially propped up by a completely uninteractive time wasting mechanic. Since the head traps are an afterthought that we just ignore anyway, that effectively noone wants in the game, I can't help but feel like my main is becoming a discount dash killer... a weak knock off of other, better dash killers.
I think a lot of the backlash comes from the fact that going this route takes away the uniqueness of the Pig, homogenising her into the camp of dash killers with nothing particularly unique or interesting of her own.
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@SxKTakes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667418#Comment_3667418
How are grades your "Objective" when they have nothing to do with winning?
However, climbing up the invisible MMR table is a goal that we have defined.
The goal isn't to climb the MMR the goal is to win the game, which results in your mmr going up. You win by getting kills, not by spreading hooks or doing as many chases as possible. Those are considered "playstyles" in DBD not "objectives".
points is the only feedback the game gives you.
Feedback doesn't equate to objective. If the goal was to get the highest grade possible each game, the devs themselves wouldn't say "kills = win" they don't care how you get the kills. They leave that up to you and your playstyle.
Passionate about it enough to create an account? 😅
I've already answered this above in previous posts.
What is winning the game? What the devs have said on twitter or AMAs doesn't matter to the overall playerbase. Look at it from your average player perspective who doesn't observe anything outside the game. If you never read anything on social media, forums or wikis about MMR, what is the game itself telling you a win is?
Kill 4 people in 1 chase and 1 hook each. At higher ranks you will lose a pip in the end score screen. Everyone has had this happen at least once to them. How, prey tell, is losing a pip not a loss?
I dunno why everyone is so passionate about this point, I don't really care, but I'm not gonna admit I'm wrong when EVERYTHING in the actual game itself is telling to you score as many hooks as possible, not kill players as fast and efficient as possible. 🤣🤣🤣
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667374#Comment_3667374
We know how it works. MMR is only based on your kills, hat's it.
DBD created it, so they made this your win condition. 1-2 kills loos, 2 kills draw, 3-4 kills win
Most information we know about it is from devs. You can't have better information than that unless you are developer yourself, which I doubt.
That's all what matters to determine "skill" right now and adept achievements are based on kills too (used to be different).
Trying to torture survivors etc. is simply lore thing, nothing else. It's not a objective for players. If so, slugging would be main objective...
If you say so dude. We're arguing semantics really, I, like you, of course understand how MMR works, and how skill is measured by the community. This doesn't really matter, but to answer your point seriously and being as objective as possible...
Every other game with the objective to win will activately demonstrate to you that you are progressing towards your objective, be that an elo rank, progressing up leagues and divisions, or by a simple scoreboard at the end of the game.
Dead by Daylight has elo, bit it isn't shown to you. DBD shows you grades. Unless you go outside DBD and look up quotes from developers (which we here of course have all done), for all intents and purposes, that is your objective as defined by the game itself.
Now if you and I want go and impose our own definition of what we want to pursue for our own intrinsic motivation, that's great. Passion is awesome. However climbing up the invisible MMR table is a goal that we have defined, not the game.
The most logical purpose and function of MMR being separated from Grades in DBD is to place similarly skilled players into games together, so that climbing up your grades is consistently challenging for you, rather than requiring you to smash bambis for the first few grades to get into more competitive games at higher ranks.
If you want more proof:
"Dead by Daylight is a multiplayer (4vs1) horror game where one player takes on the role of the savage Killer, and the other four players play as Survivors, trying to escape the Killer and avoid being caught, tortured and killed."
This seems to indicate the killers objective quite clearly. Your goal as killer is to catch torture and kill survivors.
In fairness to your point, the store page also says:
"• A Feast for Killers - Dead by Daylight draws from all corners of the horror world. As a Killer you can play as anything from a powerful Slasher to terrifying paranormal entities. Familiarize yourself with your Killing Grounds and master each Killer’s unique power to be able to hunt, catch and sacrifice your victims."
This does state your goal is to hunt, catch, and sacrifice your victims, and even says "the killing grounds", giving a strong indication you need to kill survivors, but all the in-game point scoring and reward systems stress the importance of scoring maximum hooks, starting and completing chases, using your power as much as possible and inflicting and keeping survivors wounded as much as possible.
Kills gets you very few points. That is fact whether or not you think points matter, and points is the only feedback the game gives you.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667298#Comment_3667298
Judging the objective by what skill level and matchmaking you’re placed into is way more accurate than using something that just gives you a few blood points on reset.
Except you can't possibly know what that is, can you... unless you have some sort of mod or tool that exposes it to you. Having your objective be this unknown intangible that isn't represented to the player in any way shape or form doesn't make sense no?
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666922#Comment_3666922
it is to cause as much pain, fear and lost hope as possible in each trial
Maybe based on lore, but that's about it.
MMR is based on kills only...
@Blueberry said:
As a side note of your rational. You’re confusing the games lore with the games objective. Those are two different things.
While the lore may be all about pain and suffering that is not how we rank up objectively or even how the overall community sees winning for that matter.
Arguing against this with “rank” doesn’t make sense as we do not use that for matchmaking which is what is used for matching equally skilled people up. IE the invisible mmr would be our realistic “rank”. The rank we see is simply play time generally speaking.
If you were saying this back when blood points were used for ranking and that was used for matchmaking you’d have more of an argument.
Not unreasonable points, however, only MMR is affected by kills, and MMR is a hidden value/mechanic, and there is no reward for climbing in MMR beyond your own motivation to do so.
Grades aren't affected anywhere near as much by kills, and Grades are what are public facing. So it's fair to say your skill level is determined by kills, but your actual objective, the things you are actually rewarded for doing each season are far more in line with the theme than getting kills.
@RpTheHotrod said:
We need to stop nerfing perks that encourage the killer to advance the game. For example, pop only comes into effect when the killer actually downs and hooks someone. Doesn't work with slugging. Doesn't work with camping a 3 gen and never leaving them. Every nerf to these kinds of perks just pushes more and more killers to slug and camp.
@Skillfulstone said:
Pop , new GE and Pain Res being far more common recently is easily explained.
Since 7.5.0, every instances of regression counts, as such the Killer, especially if playing a Killer on the weaker end of the spectrum, must make all slowdown count in order to not end up on the defensive if Survivors are good enough to not die until the 4th gen pops since regression is very important in lategame if there are still 3 or more Survivors alive (it's also the reason why tunnelling became much worse since the Anti-3-gen system).
Pain Res and Pop offer the best regression per activations, even if they have limited uses, which makes them the logical choice in order to reduce the risks of regressing a gen too much if Survivors keep going back to the same gen. Perks like Surge and Eruption simply don't offer enough slowdown for 1/8th regression events.
Grim Embrace, especially on mobile Killers, is also a logical choice to replace regression/slowdown perks as it offers 12 guaranteed seconds of slowdown on every first hooks and 40 seconds on the 4th one, arguably offering more overall slowdown than any other slowdown perk without spending precious regression events that might be vital later in the game. Weaker/slower Killers also love this perk as even the 12 seconds makes them able to start patrolling without having to fear of gens popping before they reach one after a hook.
With every regression perks (and non-regression kick perks) being made a limited ressource during the entire trial when facing decent teams, choosing perks that can save more of that ressource is obvious.
All fair points, thanks for the feedback.
As I said in the OP, I believe the perks personally are fine and don't need nerfing. However this topic is likely to mentioned be repeatedly over the next few months, and is worth getting a conversation going to get a general consensus on how players feel.
If these perks do need any tweaks, this is the route I would go, trying to retain the value for weaker killers, while having more impact of the stronger killers (and pushing to a more fun platstyle).
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666922#Comment_3666922
We may have been miss understood, we ment all regression. From pain res to surge.
If we're really just going for these few perks then we'd say a numbers hit and not disabled. Losing full access to the perk, while sweetly karmatic for tunneling at the get go, is still to hefty to us as there are situations where "tunneling" is the smart move (examples: you can really only find one person, the unhooker farms and goes to super safe zone leaving the other at your lack of mercy, etc). If nothing else then could make it % based (wouldn't know what to do about changing Grim Embrace other than lengthen it based on gens, which is its own can of headache).
Otherwise the only thing that would keep them useful for all would be something like a rework of regression mechanics or the perks.
Oh OK, well thats quite a lot more than what I was suggesting. I don't believe all regression perks should turn off.
The reason I posted this topic is Pain Res and Pop are very common perks right now, and are perks that are used by pretty much all killers, regardless of charatcer, map or playstyle for the extra time they bring. I was bringing up these perks because they are the most popular perks right now, and kinda putting the feelers out to the community as to how they would feel about them being changed if they were to appear on the roadmap.
I think they are really good perks that keep certain weakers killers relevant and able to have some effective global pressure/mitigate their weak map traversal... the problem is they are even better on killers that actually do have that map traversal.... and in doing so, it has the effect that map traversal killers can go hard on slowdown but maintain pressure as they tunnel a survivor off hook. Their ability to apply pressure and rush back with this slowdown means the don't have much fear of survivors being able to complete all the gens while they tunnel, and they can continue getting the value after a player is dead.
The weaker killers can't tunnel as effectively simply because they can't rush across the map as quick to pressure gens and then come back to hook as needed. They either have to tunnel, or pressure gens, they can't do both; these perks for those killers dissuage tunneling, because pushing survivors off gens allows them to stay in the game. My talking points here are, if you add that penalty, this point also becomes a factor for the strong killers too, you can't tunnel a player out AND get your gen regression, it's either 1 or the other.
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@fussy said:
And if 3 gens pops and killer only has 1-2 hooks, all exhaustion / gen related / second chance perks will disable as well, yeah? If you love idea to punish for completing your objective, it should works both ways.
OK, if we want to argue without reading anything or engaging with any of the points made:
To be pedantic, your ACTUAL objective, is not to kill survivors as fast as possible, it is to cause as much pain, fear and lost hope as possible in each trial. This is indicated by the way in which bloodpoints (and thus emblems) are awarded to you in the end game, and why if you kill all 4 survivors by hooking and sacrifcing them all after 1 chase with no unhooks, it is entirely possible you depip in iri rank. Your awards are given for getting as many chases as possible (optimally 4 per survivor), as many hits and wounds with your power as possible, and as many hooks as possible. Your actual points for kills are very low, losing out on approximately 5000 points overall per survivor you immediately kill, demonstrated perfectly by how low scoring Myers games tend to be with his executions.
Ergo your argument is invalid, because this change would actually encourage your objective.
There are plenty of people who are extremely biased and blanket ask for buffs and nerfs without any consideration to either side. Please do not insult me by lumping me into that camp. I do try to be unbiased and at the very least provide evidence for my arguments, and would appreciate being respected as such.
@Rulebreaker said:
We're not opposed to turning off regression perks when a survivor dies, but there's gonna need to be a trade off as well since that's a big downside, even accounting for the dead teammate.
Is though really? Both Pain Res and GE only have 4 procs, that requires you to hook all 4 survivors, once you've done that, it's done it's work. If you've been really fast to tunnel someone out however (which lets face it a strong Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Pyramid Head really excel at), you're in a commanding lead already by virtue of a player being dead early. I did say the numbers are up for debate, perks could be buffed a little to compensate, but the overarching point is PR and GE have mechanisms to naturally discourage tunneling, which can be circumvented/undone by mobile killers who can still tunnel effectively, while still getting the full value out of the perks. Should you still be able to use their rewards while still tunneling a player to death?
If I'm honest Pop I think is fine, it's so popular because its a great perk, that also synergises with any kick perk like Trail of Torment, Nowhere To Hide, Call of Brine, Eruption... it just makes kicks better... I bring it up since it is the most popular perk right now, so it's worth being in the conversation, even if the conclusion is "Leave it alone".
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Short killers like Chucky, that feel absolutely miserable to play on this map, because he's shorter than the tall grass, and there is A LOT OF TALL GRASS in the swamp maps.
"Look who's ######### in the tall grass? " - Ash Williams
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Potential problems with a scream Pig build, Singularity chase chains could be pretty ridiculous... given the notificaiton blocks the aura, would probably take it down to just the aura read tbh...
Other scenarios exist too where the scream might be a pain/obnoxious (thankfully not Blight and old C33). If the scream is removed and we just have the aura:
- Dissolution seems fine.
- Spirit Fury seems fine.
- Flint and Steel addon for Knight looks like it'd be pretty cool.
- Knight would actually have it be a very nice scouting perk in general, since it's 32m from the pallet.
- "Shadow Dance" - Blood combined with on Wraith could be pretty strong, but it is still probably fine.
- Hard Hat on Chucky seems fine due to long cooldown using power for sneaky scampers.
- Iridescent Button on Legion seems fine.
- Kintsugi Teacup on Spirit, no auras while haunting, but would be strong.... but still probably fine.
- Lab Photo on Wesker same as Legion, seems fine.
With screams a few of these would be a bit... at the very least irritating.
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Helps the less time available players complete the rift though doesn't it? Doesn't seem like a bad thing.
I always managed to finish the rift with like 3 weeks to spare anyway.... so no difference to me if it's faster.... no real reason to have it be harder to complete really.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/406839/the-pig-vs-the-huntress
Because basically everyone runs the head pop addons and her killrate overall is rather high, especially against newer players, since side objectives can be tough if you are unfamiliar with them. In addition to that many players don't use the rbts as game delay but as lethality preventing people from getting the trap of. Besides all that aspects her traps are arguably the best game delay in the game, dragging matches out longer decreasing the density of usable tiles in combination with killer generally getting stronger over time as the maps dries out and the effective map size aka area around gens becomes smaller. This all works in Pigs favor and makes it so depute her being on the wesker side that her kill rate is still rather high.
I read "Despite being on the Wesker side" and went on a rollercoaster of emotions as I initially nearly spat out my tea... then actually realised... xD
I think BHVR has all the feedback, Pig opinions are divided to say the least, pretty much everyone agrees Huntress is on the overtuned side now.... at this point we can only wait in baited breath to see what their decision is.
The interesting point is Pig is 61% kill rate overall, Huntress is 56% overall... BHVRs goal will be: -
- Raise Pig's performance up in high MMR while weakening her low MMR performance.
- Raise Huntresses low level perfomrance, while not changing her high MMR performance.
I guess we'll see where they take it.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
We have done what we can to answer her lady's call. Our messaging was on point, consistent, and has reached whose ears it was intended for. The lasting ripples in the sea caused by our unified push are still unknown unknowns, but be certain that every one of us should hold our heads high for what we have accomplished together. Be proud that we got the conversation started and that same conversation now is happening at the highest level where it needs to be.
Also, @UndeddJester said drinks were on them after all the dust settled. 😁
Hahahaha, Fermented Corn all around xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rppsm3u2maA -
Hmmmm... it was my understanding that blocking a generator only stops regression and the ability to kick a generator.
It does not block perks that damage gens, such as Surge, Pain Res or an already applied Eruption.
This is why Repressed Alliance is not a meta counter to Pain Res.
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Does make for some amusing games where I've ran Plaything on its own knowing people expect Pentimento. 😈
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Background Player is a goofy perk with how overtuned it is... like as annoying as it is sometimes I genuinely laugh watching how stupid it looks to see a Steve's butt fly past me at mach 5, poop a flashbang and wind up somewhere in Narnia 🤣
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@TheNameIsGilgamesh said:
The fear factor from scratched mirror Myers will eventually wear off. I had survivors that told me how boring it is to face it.
Heheheh I hate Scratched Mirror Myers, it bores me to tears... but what makes it worse is knowing that the killer is trying to be spoopy... and I'm the kill joy xD
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Is anyone other than me sat with a stressed knot in the stomach waiting for the end of the PTB? >🐽<
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663134#Comment_3663134
That's honestly why I'm of the opinion that the Tampered Timer is an unhealthy design, too. The only times it does anything is when it can be leveraged to force head-pops more reliably, and that's unhealthy, the Pig shouldn't be able to reliably force a survivor into their fail state without them actually failing at anything.
There is a middle ground where it's threatening without being too reliable, but I feel like this addon just swings from one end to the other. I'd really like to see it reworked, it's safer than trying to hit that shifting bullseye with whack-a-mole updates every time it goes too far in one direction.
I'm of the same opinion tbh, Tampered Timer to me was the problem add-on of the Pig. The one you used when you just wanted to try and ensure someone dies to a head trap.
Tbh when reading the patch notes about nerfing RBTs, I genuinely thought this add-on was obviously up for the chop... 20s off the timer was too much, and unhealthy... which is why I hate this +30s change, cause I feel that goes too far the other way. Obviously I know you disagree, but to me, I can't imagine having any fear of a trap at all.
Before I used to think "Crap... that first trap was really fast... if she has Tampered Timer and Gears I don't have time to heal, I've gotta move..." along with a healthy dose of "#########... Pig isn't in chase... please don't be coming here...".
Now I don't worry about Tampered Timer ofc... but I also don't worry about the trap either. In my head it's like "ah nuts, I've been trapped... now I have to do Boxes... oh well let's heal up and get on with it", along with "lool! Why are you chasing me Pig? You're pausing my Timer... you've got nothing, and gens flying... you idiot... xD".
It's a bad look to be looking at traps and finding them mildly inconvenient, to borderline funny.
Edit: Unless it's a scream build Pig with gears and TT... in which case 💀
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663056#Comment_3663056
Not gonna watch a video here, sorry, got other stuff going.
Beyond that, there's a couple of things wrong here. First, I think I've said this before but I'll repeat it just so we're all on the same page: I don't actually think the 30s extra on the timer is really going to achieve much. I think I know what it's meant to do, and what it's meant to do is definitely something that is worth doing so I've definitely defended that, but the fact of the matter is that the length of the timer has to change by a lot before it matters.
So yeah, thirty seconds extra doesn't do much and twenty seconds less doesn't do much. The Tampered Timer is not an atrocious addon, it has some effect, but I am of the opinion it's not one of her better ones because... well, like I said, the length of the timer isn't really that important. In my experience the TT doesn't actually make head-pops more common, and it definitely shouldn't do that, so at that point what am I even bringing it for? Survivors already have to do their traps ASAP if they don't want to play risky.
I think some wires got crossed in previous discussions, and that's perfectly reasonable, it happens. When I defend the nerfs from the specific complaint that her RBTs are being gutted, that doesn't mean I think the nerfs are actually going to achieve much. I've seen that big feedback thread and I think those changes are better than the extra time on the timer, but everyone always makes two statements at once: "These nerfs won't fix the problem" AND "These nerfs affect every other player very noticeably". The first statement is true, the second statement isn't.
I do think hiding the auras of the boxes is a more impactful change when it comes to preventing unhealthy stuff, though. That one I'm fine with.
As for your last question: There's a lot of things I'm not saying here, and that's because they're not relevant. I would love to see an addon overhaul for Pig, but I don't think I need to say that every single time I mention that she has some kinda bad addons, especially since she's not even close to the worst in the game in that regard.
Ah OK. I do disagree with you, I think the length timer does make a big difference, however now your assertion does make more sense, so thanks for taking the time to explain and clear that up.
My experience is these add-ons make playing nasty much easier, and I have seen a few games with the more recent updates using these add-ons that have made head pops very nasty while still exerting control on the map...
I don't like doing it, so haven't got many games where I tried it, but it did feel dirty to me. I have never asked for a nerf, cause obviously Pig hasn't been particularly strong anyway... but at least with my experience, these addons can be quite ugly.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662942#Comment_3662942
To be fair, what's changed regarding her addons?
Half of them are bad right now, regardless of any changes, and most of the bad ones are the ones that affect RBTs. After the changes, you're still gonna have the same number of consistently useful addons-- maybe minus one if you consider Tampered Timer to be a good/useful addon right now, but I don't, so I wouldn't count it myself.
You still have all the chase ones, those ones only got better. You still have the two Gears addons, those haven't changed and they're still good. Both addons that give you an extra RBT are good, though their other effects are meh. Amanda's Letter should be getting a little better due to her stealth/ambush being buffed...
Which addons are actually getting worse? The Mangled one, I guess? It wasn't exactly a good one to begin with, though.
You've said this before, and I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to say you're wrong.
Why exactly do her RBTs need to have the 30s timer nerf? If this apparently is a really good nerf that solves her problematic playstyle, how can an add-on that gives 20s in the other direction be 'not good' to your mind? How is 30s so good, but 20s so weak? How is 150s problematic to the point of requiring a nerf, 180s is fine, but 130s is not considered strong by you?
If these 2 nerfs are considered strong enough to neuter a supposedly overpowered and unfair playstyle, that are apparently required for her basekit even when people aren't running add-ons affecting RBTs, how are the addons making this playstyle stronger not powerful? Your logic doesn't make sense.
While Otzdarva is not an authority on add-ons, could you please explain why he is wrong in every one of these instances from 3:02:16?
https://youtu.be/tX-4lk-EWPk?si=aC5VL4VhomA1V5h7Lastly, can you explain why, if supposedly these add-ons are so bad you are not asking for them to be buffed? That would be sensible for a weak add-on no? Especially now that basekit changes have made these worse.
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@BlackRose89 said:
Personally I just think the two RBT nerfs she got was the wrong ones. The nerfs doesn't actually do anything to fix the main problem with pig and that's her synergy with screaming builds. A pig who wants to pop someone head will still do so if they running UW and Face the Darkness and harass the person with a trap on their head. Meanwhile these nerfs only hurt every one else and removes some nuance from playing pig. Honestly this post sums it better than I can:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/406313/a-proposal-from-your-local-pig-mains
Also I still don't think her chase power is all that great despise what few streamers and others on this thread says. She still suffers a lot from predropping and shift w'ing. Plus I say she even more addon dependent because her two chase add-ons still feel needed to make ambush feel good. Like why run RBT add-ons anymore since they got nerfed? Just might as well only run her only two good chase add-ons. You honestly better off playing pinhead since he also has a slowdown power and an actually decent chase power. Personally I just think they could do more to make her power feel better. I don't think the little buffs she got is nearly a enough especially to justify the trap nerfs.
This is one that sticks out to me as well. Basically any trap dependant add-on becomes basically worthless compared to the chase ones.
Why bother using her trap add-ons if there is no chance of a head pop.
- Tampered Timer - Worthless in every way, since traps are "just for slowdown".
- Rules Set Number 2 - Literally does nothing if head traps are "just for slowdown".
- Gears - Adds 20.4s, 36s, or 56.4s to your overall 144s of slowdown, but what's the point of that extra time if you're not using the add-ons that actually improve upon her famously weak chase? Why take 30s extra each chase when you can be more reliable in chase and ensure you get all traps out for your slowdown?
- Jigsaw's Annotated Plan - Hot trash in every conceivable way, and even if buffed, does nothing if the traps are "just for slowdown".
- Video Tape - Now RSn2 is "just for slowdown", this basically is only good for the exhaustion add-ons and otherwise serves as a budget corrupt intervention.
- Razor Wire/Interlocking Razor - Always sucked anyway, and just have more soil poured on their grave.
Honestly now that RBTs are basically no threat whatsoever and are "just for slowdown", and her chase is so much better apparently that it rivals Chucky and Wesker (if content creators are to be believed), I expect Amanda's Letter and Jigsaw's Sketch to become meta. Since survivors with headtraps won't care about them being activated or not and will be working on gens, I get a comparable amount of my slowdown, and I have wall hacks on all my anti loops to use my apparently new meta redefining chase.