UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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Something I see often on either side is Survivors unhooking before the killer has had any real time to leave.
I've regularly seen multiple survivors come off gens and start sprinting towards hook to make a fast save, and wondered why on earth they freely invite tunneling... just waiting 20s so the killer has to decide whether to commit somewhere makes a big difference. I even have builds that benefit unhooking that I've had to stop using, because getting a survivor to stick a gen is really hard.
I saw a game against a Spirit yesterday, where she very quickly ran back to hook after gunning down Maria early... made it really clear she was tunneling. Survivors instead of leaving her on hook a while, the safest place she could be, unhooked her in 10 seconds... She was dead in maybe 100s from the start of the match... we still squeeked out an escape, I got out alive mostly cause I ran object of obsession and resilience and I think she took her foot off the gas thinking she had the game in the bag while I cranked gens.
I avoid taking an exhaustion perk cause I'm trying to get better in chase without one. To my frustration, one of my most successful builds is Deja Vu, Stake Out, Fast Track, Off the Record, simply because Survivors are so unhook happy, and I'm the only one who sticks gens for a few seconds just to see what the killer is doing. Doing this I can usually get all my stacks. I take OTR in case I get tunneled to try and discourage it, and give myself a better chance of building up/using my stacks.
Point is, tunneling is effective yes... but there are a good number of survivors who make it frustratingly easy to tunnel.
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As @Aven_Fallen says, originally the name made more sense.
Though my head cannon spins a yarn along the lines of each of the gens has been rigged with a trap to alert the killer at 70% and masks the killers approach with the noise of the gen.
Lot squinting and head tilting... but it kinda works...
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684608#Comment_3684608
I mean it is still a buff in that regard, because once people realise you cannot be blinded they won't try anymore, whereas with this version they might not notice it so quickly... So I would say it is still an improvement.
Appreciate it mate! I think its the best of both, still gives the benefits people want of Lightborn, but actually can see multiple instances of benefit, while also still giving survivors something in return instead of just a 'Nope'.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684561#Comment_3684561
Oops... fair observations my guy, truthfully, I have not used the perk for so long that I forgot it actually gives the aura already... :D
I guess the short version of my suggestion is to grant the blind trigger so that the survivor thinks they've blinded the killer, but actually have not. This fake out however is not an insignificant buff, and something you can catch out the same survivor or a team of SWF survivors multiple times if you act it well (unless its a full flashlight save)... and can lead to people continuing to try instead of just going to crank gens. I added the other effects to compensate for the potential value it now offers, as opposed to the current version, which is survivor tries once, sees you have Lightborn, and you never see any value from it again... if that makes sense.
So I guess the change could also be buffed to be, "grants the blind trigger", and call it a day, but denying a lunge could be argued either way as something the kilelr does themsevles as part of the subterfuge, or is counterplay offered to compensate for that buff... I personally think the trade off of losing the lunge is worth it for the potential value Survivors thinking they can blind you brings.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684562#Comment_3684562
The idea would be no, you can't flashlight save. You get the blind proc, it counts as blinding the killer, but the killer is immune to being stunned by flashlights is the idea. That way the survivors still have a way to know for sure that Lightborn is in play, but it otherwise provides the killer with more value out of the perk.
Also following that misunderstanding @LazyClown, your argument makes a little more sense! Apologies my guy!
I've provided a revised version with this in mind!
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@Xernoton said:
Help me out here. How is this a buff? Right now you can't get blinded, meaning the upside of not getting stunned by blinds is already included, you see that survivor's aura for 10 seconds and you have normal vision the entire time. But you suggest to impair the killer's vision, nerf the aura duration and include an upside that's already there and you would take away the killer's lunge for the time of the blind. So to me this just looks like a nerf.
I guess survivors could get the "Killer Blind" BP event, which would hide it but you could do that with Lightborn now and it would be way better. Or you leave Lightborn as it is and it would still be better.
I think it's good that Lightborn makes you immune to blinds. It's the ultimate anti bully perk. No flashlight save shenanigans, no blinding after every pallet drop and you don't have to deal with flashbangs and their issues. Like sound occlusion and the ability for survivors to glitch themselves into the killer to guarantee a save. Overall, it's a huge quality of life improvement for when you want to play a bit chill. The killer only has 4 perk slots, so if they want to limit themself to 3 perks, then I don't see any issue in Lightborn countering flashlights completely. Especially since your idea wouldn't make flashlights much more useful either way.
Oops... fair observations my guy, truthfully, I have not used the perk for so long that I forgot it actually gives the aura already... :D
I guess the short version of my suggestion is to grant the blind trigger so that the survivor thinks they've blinded the killer, but actually have not. This fake out however is not an insignificant buff, and something you can catch out the same survivor or a team of SWF survivors multiple times if you act it well (unless its a full flashlight save)... and can lead to people continuing to try instead of just going to crank gens. I added the other effects to compensate for the potential value it now offers, as opposed to the current version, which is survivor tries once, sees you have Lightborn, and you never see any value from it again... if that makes sense.
So I guess the change could also be buffed to be, "grants the blind trigger", and call it a day, but denying a lunge could be argued either way as something the kilelr does themsevles as part of the subterfuge, or is counterplay offered to compensate for that buff... I personally think the trade off of losing the lunge is worth it for the potential value Survivors thinking they can blind you brings.
@jonifire said:
Are you able to flashlight save with it? I‘m just asking, because I‘m unshure whether I misunderstood something.
If yes, I would also make that, it takes 80%longer to blind the killer. Then it would still have the counter to flashlights, but you could still save someone.
All in all it would be a lot better, I really dislike that it currently can hard counter a whole build.
The idea would be no, you can't flashlight save. You get the blind proc, it counts as blinding the killer, but the killer is immune to being stunned by flashlights is the idea. That way the survivors still have a way to know for sure that Lightborn is in play, but it otherwise provides the killer with more value out of the perk.
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@Royval said:
Lightborn is healthy for the game. If you have a challenge gg go next isn’t that serious
Don't disagree, but do you believe this reworked version would detract from that health? Would it be the same? Or would it perhaps enhance the health of the game?
I tend to think the latter.
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@LazyClown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684495#Comment_3684495
If you are going for a kill and you get blinded you only see the survivor that blinded you, THATS A NERF. omg the low level garbage pisses me off so much sometimes. THINK THINK PLEASE
I'm going to give you the benfit of the doubt, and assume you understand that seeing exactly where the survivor is going and being able to perfectly follow (something most killers can do without taking Lightborn), while also having the survivor not aware that you can perfectly see them... is not a nerf... if being able to see all terrain perfectly is that important to you, you can argue that the dark effect can be removed... but the core idea is that survivors still "blind" the killer, but that blind basically has no effect. This is far more interesting than just doing nothing...
So before you go about attacking people with "Low garbage" perhaps it would behoove you to engage in the disucssion and address the points raised in entirety instead of tunnel visioning on a single largely irrelevant point my guy.
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@LazyClown said:
Never ever, that lightborn change where you don't get blinded ever is probably one of the best and most needed changes for a perk I have ever seen in this game. Survivors got a lot of buffs in the flashlight/flashbang department, let killers have something.
Always welcoming criticism, but would appreciate you elaborting on exactly why this is a worse trade off?
The killer does get something... they get to see the survivors aura and some view of the world around them, they can't be flashlight stunned when picking up a survivor (to my knowledge the main reason to take Lightborn), and they get a degree of masking the effects of the perk so survivors aren't immediately aware it's in play...
The only thing the killer really loses is the ability to lunge while they are blind, to at least give some counter play to survivors if they realise it's in play. Of course if this makes the perk undesirable, maintaining the baility to lunge can be an additional effect, and of course would also be a giveaway that Lightborn is in play.
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A play style I tried out while doing Skull Merchant challenges yesterday across 5 games or so was to drop drones at generators only, and use Brutal Strength and Bamboozle to play around loops with regular m1 killer mind games (thereby removing the much hated close down loops strategy).
I was experimenting similarly to see how effective Skull Merchant would be if you took away her anti loop potency. You would not believe how many times I still got scans and claw traps out by doing this... Funnily enough I only had 2 players quit while I did this play style, 1 of whom was instant before they even saw what I was doing, the other was after he putzed it completely and fell for the simplest M1 mind game in the book of walking backwards at shack while on death hook.
I don't camp or tunnel, with the exception if noone goes for the save withing 40s, I will start making my way back to hook to cut survivors off, and if I'm body blocked from going after the unhooker after an unhook, I will take another hook stage.
I got a 4k in 1 game, 2 3ks (1 DC), a 2k and 1 4e. I'm not even using my power and I'm still getting middling results.... if I play Trapper, its 10 times harder and I'm basically a worse version of him with this style... Needless to say, it's hard to draw any conclusions from such a small sample size... but it looks to me like survivor effort plays a big factor.
The 4E was the game where you could see the survivors actually tried.
Edit: I also went against a couple of SMs yesterday who after the teammates who quit removed themselves from the game, took mercy on us and let us unhook and keep resetting before letting us go.
Skull Merchant's strut BTW looks hilarious when she moonwalks by in the distance xD
Just a little note to say not all Skull Merchant's are evil, 3-gen holding, camping, tunneling, trolling monsters.
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@Lynxx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683614#Comment_3683614
The thing is she's had such a bad reputation for so long I don't see anyone's opinion changing.
It does appear that way sadly. Hoping that General V is right and eventually people get bored of hating her, like Legion.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683791#Comment_3683791
I'm talking about before Buckle Up received its buff. It used to be that it only gave Endurance to the survivor who got picked up.
Also I still tend to see both perks being used individually on the regular so I'd have to disagree with that claim of the two perks already being dead on their own.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683812#Comment_3683812
The only problem I find with this change is that it would make the old survivor speed build of MFT + Hope + Power Of Two + Blood Pact come back again, but even stronger since MFT would be replaced with Buckle Up which would be 2% higher than MFT.
10 seconds though? MFT was permanent, Buckle Up would only be enough to stand an OK chance of reaching a tile then would run out.
Ofc if you get all that up in EGC... would be kinda earned with all the restrictions you'd have to bypass to attain it...
@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683812#Comment_3683812
I think the diversity it grants by switching the endurance is good since you get 3 versions of the combo
Self sacrifice, FTP + Buckle up
Normal combo with activation, FTP + WGLF
Neutral recovery combo, Made for this + Buckle up
Rather than FTP + Buckle up just being the best version of all 3, more build diversity
Definitely, I feel like that's the Nirvana every set of similar perks should aspire to. Similar in strength but offering different flavours in line with your personal taste.
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Personally it's when a player DCs or SoH.
I don't see why everyone else should be punished. I basically play out the game as normal taking maximum hooks, and whoever doesn't quit, doesn't give up on their teammates by being a rat, and doesn't become toxic, I'll let them all leave.
I also tend to do the same for the last survivor. Long as they keep trying to win, and don't become toxic, I'll usually let them live. It's especially rewarding when playing someone like Skull Merchant (who I only ever put drone at gens and hex totems, always play normal mind games at loops).
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@bjorksnas said:
Switch the endurance effect of buckle up and were gonna live forever (only picked up survivor gets endurance), now the stronger version of the combo requires some kind of activation or the survivor or more perk investment (made for this might still activate it).
It buffs a bad perk and makes the combo more involved
That makes more sense, and at least make it so it requires an unhook/protection hit/save first. The fact made for this requires you to be injured first kinda kills a lot of the toxic elements, and at least let's the killer get a foot hold before it starts.
I'd be tempted to give a small speed boost (say 5%) to Buckle Up as well to help reach a tile, as just endurance for the picked up survivor on its own might kill the perk.
Buckle Up
When healing a Survivor in the Dying State:
- The Aura of the Killer is revealed to the both of you.
- Completing a Healing Action on the dying Survivor grants that survivor Endurance Status Effect for 6/8/10 seconds.
- Completing a Healing Action on the dying Survivor also grants you both 5% Haste for 6/8/10 seconds.
This would still keep Buckle Up decent on its own and open up synergies with Made For This.
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See how you stack up!
Edit: Why on earth is this here? I think I posted this to the wrong thread....
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683168#Comment_3683168
You are a saint.
Literally.
I feel like a lot of my burnout with dbd comes from no variety. Ive been stuck with surge + bbq + lethal + stbfl for literally years now because it works so well. However, this got extremely monotonous over time. Im gonna try new stuff now. Thx for this revelation friend!
♥️🐽♥️
You were pure chase Pig, that's awesome 😁😁😁
I did also experiment with replacing Pop in build one with Unforseen (I think it's unforseen... the new Trail of Torment perk). That's also quite fun if you want to have something a little less meta, Amanda is naturally quite small, so being able to run upright at full click caught a few people off guard 😁
Hope you have fun! I enjoy trying weird and quirky stuff in this game... I'm still trying to get Hysteria to work on someone... xD
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Edit: TLDR - if you abandon players who are genuinely trying against Skull Merchant, then you're the problem. You don't allow anyone to objectively assess her or learn anything against her, because you doom the whole team from the get go.
To be honest, from my perspective, he's completely on point.
It's so frustrating the Skull Merchant bias, and I'm sorry there is bias. I'm not at the pro survivor level, I'm still building my skills, and I'm not at the point I can say I can comfortable loop against Clown or Wraith or Bubba without making glaring mistakes still. I still am actually trying to learn how to play against Skull Merchant. I rarely see them, so I don't get the chance often...
However these people just giving up, dooms the game so I can't even try. I lose one chase, however long I last, and that's it, I die on hook. No second or third chance to have another go.
I understand the theory behind why Skull Merchant isn't that fun to play against, and am always trying to think of ways to make her more enjoyable. I for one like the concept of having to Metal Gear Solid past her drones to work on gens, go for saves and alike... at loops it's obnoxious sure, but still if I've not done anything stupid the Skull Merchant is no worse than Clown at loops.
The thing that gets me about all this Skull Merchant hate, is personally it takes a LOT to make me give up on a game... because its not the Skull Merchant who is punished, its the rest of the team. If you have a player who is genuinely trying against Skull Merchant, and you quit... sorry you're the #########.
In the rare occassions I have quit (not counting dying to give hatch), (and we're talking maybe 5 times)... Usually it is something my teammates have done, rather than the killer.... and there are things that annoy me way more in this game than Skull Merchant... pretty much any strong chase killer like Blight or Spirit who runs Pop, Pain Res, Grim Embrace and immediately tunnels the first player off hook. I imagine high level Nurses are the same, but I rarely see those, and facing decent Nurses is a lot of fun.
My stupid analogy
So I just don't get it... it's like Skull Merchant is a plain boring Baked Potato and sweaty Blight is a Parsnip or a Sprout (something with a strong flavour).
Then someone saying "I don't like sprouts, but I really ######### hate baked potatoes!". Like how do you hate baked potatoes with genuine visecra? They're boring, they're bland and they need something... fair enough... but to hate them so much you won't eat dinner on the same plate?
Like parsnips or sprouts can at least kinda understand... but a baked potato? It's nonsensical to hate it that much... and that's how's I feel about Skull Merchant.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683332#Comment_3683332
Plot Twist was my friend
That's really smart... Resilience at pallets and hope for the best would have been my plan, but that's actually genius if that actually works.
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Hi Dalies and Mentlegen of Swine!
I'm coming up with new builds all tne time, and am having a blast not having to rely on on JMF and Combat straps to not get smoked at every pallet.
Just for giggles I wanted to share my current builds I'm having fun with on Pig.
1) Just for kicks
All about them kicks. The idea is to try and ensure we're finding people around gens with NTH and try and get our traps out fast. Tampered Timer and Ruleset No.2 to ensure survivors can't take their time and we're keeping as many survivors off gens as possible to allow Oppression to regress generators.
2) I see your pallet...
The goal here is to chew through pallets as much as possible. If we get good Ambush chances we take them, but if not Nemesis and Game Afoot combined with Brutal Strength allows us to break pallets and keep in hot pursuit, while Deadlock ensures we can stagger our traps well.
3) I see you!
This builds attempts to get a commanding lead early using our traps as a tracking mechanism to secure a good number of hooks while still at 5 gens. Jigsaws Sketch let's us know who is working gens and gauge if you want to let it go for pops or interrupt for Ruin, and gives us another trap for whoever gets theirs off early. Lethal is there for extending our aura reads, and if noone touches a gen, we can still find people fast and get the ball rolling. The hope is anyone wanting to crank gens we can interrupt for Ruin, and Undying preserves our hexes. We take Face the Darkness to fake out a scream builds and give us auras to keep hounding those boxes if people insist on doing head traps first without popping a gen.
What builds are my fellow Pig mains playing with? 😁
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683010#Comment_3683010
"During EGC, the killer can't afford to go anywhere else... there are no gens to patrol, they can't catch survivors at gate, the ONLY pressure they have left is that player on hook. It's then up the survivors if they want yo take a 3 man out, or try for the 4... but trying for the 4 needs an associated level of risk to matter."
Thank you that you explain it to me after I said two times that I know why this is the case.
My sole issue is that Killer players always want everything to deactivate in Endgame, just because they think they deserve that one Kill. Nothing more. Explanining me things a few times I already know will not change my opinion. (Not that I have actually an issue with Killers camping in Endgame, since, I repeat, I know why they are doing that. But I think that Killer players should not think that they deserve a Kill after they failed all game like this Billy)
... I mean OK... I guess I missed some nuance somewhere. My apologies.
I don't think anyone genuinely thinks that killers deserve a free kill, and I suppose the confusion is I don't see how disabling the AFC in end game constitutes giving a killer a free kill.
It seems like a perfectly reasonable and sensible gameplay decision to me.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682863#Comment_3682863
Nah, it is just that everything gets turned off in Endgame. Just so the Killer can feel somewhat good about a pity Kill.
Yes, I understand that there is nothing else to do at this point, but it is funny that Killers think it is fine that they suck all game and then think they deserve that one Kill.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682871#Comment_3682871
"You do realise one could easily turn around and say the AFC is a pity unhook don't you?"
Not really?
And well, comparing Comp to Public Matches is already wrong.
I'm not saying you should compare comp to public, as I say I actually support the AFC... but... the comp players aren't wrong... the killer IS sacrificing gen pressure for camping a player out.
I don't think any of us want that in the public game... but it is still true... the killer is sacrificing a LOT of gen pressure for that kill when played against properly.
What I'm highlighting is, the point of the AFC to is prevent face camping and encourage gen patrol, by virtue of the fact that survivors are given a large window to play around a hook camper. You can proxy, but it is far less profitable than the near guaranteed kill face camping gave.
During EGC, the killer can't afford to go anywhere else... there are no gens to patrol, they can't catch survivors at gate, the ONLY pressure they have left is that player on hook. It's then up the survivors if they want to take a 3 man out, or try for the 4... but trying for the 4 needs an associated level of risk to matter...
If the killer is forced to stand away from the hook during EGC, the game might as well just say, if gates were powered, survivors win and TP everyone to exit.
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@Brimp said:
Trapper, just please give him all his traps. Why is he the only killer who has to actively go COLLECT his power? (sure oni exists but you still can get information from just the orbs alone).
See I dont think thats much of a boon to Trapper really... it only really makes basement Trapper more efficient and allows trapping the crap out of a 3-gen.... which will still likely be a slow death.
The problem with Trapper is fundamentally he is incompatible with the pace of modern DBD. He still needs to walk out and set up, and unlike Hag, his traps need to be directly stepped on to get value. His traps are easier to see, easier to avoid and easier to disable. After they score a hit, he still needs to pick them up/reset them, and his set up time is not usually worth the investment... so even if you improve his set up with all traps off the go, he still suffers the same problems, and the only thing he can do in try and hold a corner.
As Trapper I find it much more fun to set up traps on the go, lay trap to cut off a loop as you grab the next off the floor, and have it get me a Snare later down the road. It may be impossible to make this good, but this playstyle is much more fun that just hugging a corner, and shouldn't be given up on.
IMO Trapper needs: -
- Trap colour pallette changes to match the realm.
- At least one additional carry capacity.
- Grab a trap from lockers on a 45 secs cooldown, where the furthest unopened trap dematerialises.
- Faster setting speed so he can actually try to keep up at loops.
He'd still be weak, but with his haste buff he'd feel pretty nice to play.
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Did not expect to wake up to seeing Corrupt Intervention being called pointless...
Whenever I see it as survivor a little part of me dies inside knowing my soloQ teammates are liable to take the time to be wandering around for 45 seconds+ not doing gens and focus on totems and chests... when they do start gens they almost always start to create a perfect 3 gen 😩
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@ratcoffee said:
I think you shouldn't lose it if the killer whiffs. Make it so it only deactivates if you block a hit with it (keep exhausted effect so you still have to escape chase after the killer whiffs, keeps some risk to it)
The fact it's already tempered by exhaustion makes this perfectly reasonable and fair to me.
They can only use it while injured, and if you bait it out as killer, they haven't got it for 40s of walking to get it back. That's restriction enough.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Yeah, the Killer is allowed to have a pity Kill. This Billy played well, you are his 3rd Hook while he lost 5 Gens. Of course he deserves a Kill with every somewhat meaningful Survivor Defense disabled at this point.
(I understand why they are disabled, but yet a Killer who failed all game is always allowed to have a pity Kill at Endgame...)
Isn't it a bit rich to be given a mechanic that prevents a killer from face camping you through the rest of the game... a mechanic you were absolutely not entitled to because the point of the killer game is to kill survivors and camping achieves that perfectly well... only to the turn around and say not having that mechanic end game is giving the killer a pity kill?
You do realise one could easily turn around and say the AFC is a pity unhook don't you?
I don't agree with that position myself, but you do know the AFC is banned in comp because its competitive players deem it unfair on the killer, who is exchanging gen pressure for securing a kill?
It's actually quite fascinating getting a competitive DBD players perspective. Sppokyloopz has a great video on it if youre interested:
https://youtu.be/JHkthkwyuZE?si=kqvA7BP8f6_CtmCf -
@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682271#Comment_3682271
How can you say it was primarily used by good players then in the same post call it a crutch?
Bad players never used this perk to any significant degree and most of the complaints were just cope from bad killers.
The only time MFT was unhealthy was when it's stacked with Hope. Survivors should never be at or so close to killers in speed. But that only occurred during end game and required playing with three perks until gens finished.
Yeah OK, fair enough that is bad wording on my part. Been a while since MFT discussions have come up, but I'll try and clarify.
MFT gave an effective 20% distance more on the killer for every action the survivor made while injured. For your average low to medium survivor this doesn't make much difference, because most newbies and even moderately experienced players don't tend to link tiles together well, or hug tiles particularly effectively. This means that a lot of weak to mid players get caught running into dead zones or get caught at weak pallets, where that extra 20% distance doesn't make a difference.
However, when combined with WoO, every low level and medium level player can effectively hold W and run pallet to window to pallet, and regularly made that extra meter so, allowing them to clear it. I don't care who you are, this game is a matter of inches quite often. Hold W is still toted as being too strong against a good portion of the cast, and MFT just made that problem worse. Strong survivors, didn't need this basic strategy however, and could really punish M1 killers hard using the extra safety that MFT brought. M1 killers would have to swing, because MFT was allowing them to reach each window and tile just that little bit sooner and keep greeding for extra loops, and every mistake was even harder punished. It effectively forced the killer to have to go for long lunges to force the pallet to try and get it dropped. This made every chase for killers without a strong chase/cut off power have much a harder time catching them. Doctor especially would actually lose distance trying to use his power against MFT, and basically got completely wrecked during this time. Your 4.4m/s killers literally couldn't catch a survivor running in a circle around a rock... Huntress was prime a victim of this, if she didn't have hatchets, she basically had nothing vs. MFT.
Your strong chase killers like Wesker, Nurse, Blight, Spirit, didn't give crap, your anti-loop killers like Artist, Knight, Pyramid Head and Xeno didn't give a crap, but your Trappers, Myers, Pigs, Freddys and Doctors really felt it.
If you put Resilience on MFT, which most people did, and those close calls where survivors would only just make it, became even more troubling for your M1 killers, again not so much the kilelrs better suited against it. Resilience is still a good perk now for squeeking out of the way of hits, but with MFT, it was downright brutal on any non anti-loop killer.
So yes, the perk was a crutch, because it gave access to the speed boost way too easily, and could be built around with little penalty to get a lot of value with the most brain dead of playstyles. On it's own the perk was managable, but with the right builds, or a sufficient amount of skill, certain killers basically became obsolete in the game.
If you think 3% is not a big deal, i hasten to remind you Huntress had an add-on that inflicted 3% hindered with her hatchets.... Survivors correctly complained that add on was unfair, and it got removed. 3% is a big deal if it's easily available. Skull Merchant proves as such, as without the haste, she would REALLY suck, even with all the other stuff in her kit.
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Eh, I'm not really for this change. Adepts on either side are not too hard to get, and feel about as difficult as each other, rarely taking more than 2 or 3 games, and in both cases my worst luck streaks have been 7 or 8. Both sides get the rng of hatch as a factor and how sweaty the opposition is playing.
For survivor, you have little in the way of perk synergy to fall back on to keep you from taking hits, helping recover quickly or cranking gens, and tend to have to mostly rely on your raw skill as a basekit survivor; however you do have the benefit of other survivors picking up the slack.
For killer, you similarly play the killer with mostly only their raw power to help you, and without the crutch of meta perks, so have to focus on add-ons and getting the most out of the base power to pick up the slack. Again it tends to rely mostly on your raw skill with the basekit killer.
On survivor you tend to struggle to survive chase or get gens done and take the 50/50 gamble on hatch. On killer you struggle to get the job done before hatch/gates become an issue.
Both seem a reasonable and not too oppressive challenge to me, and I usually finish the Adept before the unique killer/survivor chapter achievements. (Skilled Huntress... why you h8 😭)
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681989#Comment_3681989
That's the problem you literally need to blindfold yourself to make killer challenging sometimes. Doesn't matter how good you are at survivor doing a 4man our streak or even a 3man out streak is nearly impossible these days.
Yeah but how much of that is attributable to Killers being overpowered vs. SoloQ survivors not playing well?
How many times have you seen a random player running around aimlessly for 45s to 90s trying to find a totem to break for Inner Strength or a chest to try to get a medkit, instead of doing gens? Some people are doing tome challenges. I see this kind stuff a lot, and it's only since I've been playing with some pretty high skill players that I've started to notice it.
If you wanna get an idea of how daft people can play in SoloQ, take Kindred and Empathy, and just watch what people do... it's quite eye opening.
Really think about it, if the Survivors are making these kinds of mistakes, and not playing efficiently... how weak do you want the killer to be to make it so the 1 or 2 survivors playing seriously can win, when their teammates are making these kinds of mistakes and/or being this inefficient?
I've faced SWF teams who try to goof off, hit me with sabos, flashlight saves, etc, etc, as a pre-buff Pig and I've absolutely smashed them. I've also played against soloQ teams who were all running perks like Distortion, Lithe, WoO, We'll Make It, Deja Vu, with decent medkits and toolboxes, and gotten absolutely rinsed even as a Spirit on Dead Dawg... and I didn't play noticably bad... I made no serious mistakes, I was pretty efficient with my chases, I held onto the core 4 generators well... I mean maybe I wasn't quite mean enough camping hooks and tunneling hard... but I wasn't a slouch... and I still got pretty comfortably whooped...
What the problem for SoloQ is you have casual players mixed in with serious players. If you get 4 serious players in soloQ, you can get pretty hard matches as killer... but you get 4 survivors not on the same page (and thats the usual case)... and you get some pretty big chinks to exploit in the survivor teams armour.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681953#Comment_3681953
I remember when you were just a wee lad on the forums :)
You're overall just very chill and unbiased, very much deserving of the role if ever it makes a return.
Appreciate it mate, coming up to a year now being in these forums. There are so many people here like yourself who have been a joy to debate with and learn from. There have been numerous people who you can really learn a lot from here just by asking. 😅
There have been plenty of times I've had my own perspectives challenged, and a number of times I've had to rethink my stance or have to admit I've been completely proven wrong. There is nothing more satisfying than feeling like you come away from an argument having learned something, and you get that a lot in these forums.
I do believe being here has genuinely made me a better DBD player. Exploring the different perspectives and getting others thoughts tends to level out my own bias, and adapting other people's thought patterns into my own gameplay has helped me no end... the only scary thing is, I'm at that point in the game now where I'm startimg to get a handle on how much I don't know xD
But seriously, (and yes this absolutely shameless flattery to farm for up votes 😏), it continues to be an absolute joy sharing enthusiasm for this game with everyone here. You guys are awesome 🤘😁🤘
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Same as its always been, 3% in the hands of a good player can be absolutely devastating and specifically shafts m1 killers, particularly Doctor.
MFT is a good perk for anti-tunnel and m1 killers, especially with OTR and Resilience. It's problem is players don't get to use it for free anymore, it only works if you get tunneled or otherwise deep wounded, so you don't see majority of people bring it.
The fact you can still take an exhaustion perk and get the full benefit of MFT is a great balancing feature that many people tend to overlook.
I actually like to use MFT now, because it's no longer a crutch perk that activates every chase encouraging bad habits. It gives a noticeable boost when you need it, and if you don't make any mistakes you become borderline uncatchable.
One benefit is because its not common, and its always been a subtle effect, not many people identify that you have it.
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Console players are the real players.
We don't need no monitor brightness, mouse flicks, 120 FPS, or third party crosshairs. We play this game 100% legit 😏
Dredge is 😱😱😱
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@ChuckingWong said:
This is honestly where I am at with playing, especially during events. Survivor, at least SoloQ, is just becoming more and more of a dice roll on the outcome of the match. Very little to do with anything you are personally doing to ensure any fun or escaping. Everything up to ... just chance. There are SO many systems that just are not in place to restrict bad actors on the killer side of things, or even your own teammates, from completely ruining your experience.
This is something that Texas Chainsaw does so much better. Where you can play Solo and not have this MASSIVE reliance on what your team is doing.
On the killer side of things, if you understand how to play the game at a decent level, you have to start restricting yourself if you actually want a challenge. And even when you do, you still win a majority of your games to the point of it being a full stomp. You have to use one of the weaker killers... go in with no addons, maybe dont take certain perks, to really have a chance at losing as killer.
Might be time to revisit TCM, because this game is just going in a direction, especially with the latest killer changes, and addition, that the game is just a bit silly now.
Never played against good survivors huh? Because when you do, you get humbled pretty fast.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681874#Comment_3681874
There are already a few comments on here from others who believe they should get it.
If I had to name another off the top of my head tho, @UndeddJester :)
... Thank you so much dude... that has actually genuinely humbled me... 🧡
...and here was me thinking I'm an annoying crank who rambles on too long, trying to fit in with the cool kids... 😅
(Yes Jester... you are that too)
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680995#Comment_3680995
hack mid-chase unless they had a massive headstart
Issue is there is no point in even trying it, so why would anyone bother other than flex.
Although quite frankly I still believe that Haste can stay if Hindered goes or vice-versa.
Haste is way more important to Skull merchant than Hindered will ever be. It's quite rare for me to get to Hindered.
I think there should be something, so drones can't be ignored when injured, but I wouldn't mind nerfing hindered to like 5%.
trading removing info from the Killer for giving info to the Killer is counter-productive
Well, that's how it used to be. You denied her drones, which is not only information, but got claw trap -> mostly information. Currently disarm is kinda boring and I definetly prefered when it was more of an trade off. Disarmed had more impact, but it had draw back.
Good merchants know you disarmed anyway. Drone aura is not visible when you are disarming and aura is then higher than other drones -> but that is hard to tell on some maps...
Generally like your ideas. 5% Hindered for even just 3 seconds is a slow window vault in most scenarios that count. I've advocated for a while that her speed should be standardised. Mine took the form of chasing a scanned survivor is 3%, chasing a claw trapped survivor is 6%, to keep the survivor you're chasing responsible for their penalty, but if removing broken, then having it off anyone is good.
I also think a scanned survivor should have their scan appear in red on the HUD for the duration (for both sides) so both can easily see on the HUD when SM has the speed in effect.
Might be nice if drones placed had like an encryption build up. Drones placed start with 3 direction checks, increasing by 1 check every 10 seconds up to a max of 7. That way it may actually be do-able to disarm a drone in chase.
With your other changes, and cause of the drone proximity, she can't just recall and throw another one, which would actually make it rewarding.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681754#Comment_3681754
I dont think the aura reading is worth a perk slot. You’re better off bringing just off the record or dead hard. A key with blood amber is better. The only reason why this perk even gets play is because of the basement unhook. No one cares about the aura reading. If it didnt have the basement unhook part, the perk wouldnt get any play
If you see no value in the aura read and are just trying to Kobe, just take Distortion and Deliverance instead to ensure you aren't the first found, and after an unhook run exactly the same play anywhere on the map without the obvious tell to the killer.
Literally no point trying to use Wicked if that's what you're using it for, it's a far more obvious tell to the killer that is likely to leave you slugged in basement.
OTR and Wicked on the other hand is a very potent anti-tunnel combo. You have no whimpering sounds, and see exactly where the killer is when you unhook so can reach safety far more easily using your wall hacks to get as much value out OTR as you possibly can.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681653#Comment_3681653
the aura reading part of the perk no one cares about, its the unhook part that people like.
OK... but that's your loss. You're focusing on the hyper specific scenario where you can make a big play, rather than the subdued more consistently useful and reliable part of the perk.
The aura read off any hook is actually great for anti-tunnel, because you can ensure you aren't caught out by the killer coming back to hook; you can know for sure whether you have time to heal or not, and immediately abandon it if the killers starts to come for you AND know exactly which way to go.
Especially when combined with OTR, you can basically near guarantee you make safety and signfiicantly increase your chances to slip away undetected.
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Great QoL improvement. Two thumbs up 👍️👍️
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681665#Comment_3681665
No achievement is necessary for a normal match to finish, at all.
So what you're saying is, don't care about achievements... that's a fine stance to take, but... they exist, and BHVR created the achievements with the intent for players to go for achievements. If you don't care, fair enough, but others do, and if the achievement/challenge encourages or even requires toxic play, it's not really the fault of the player...
e.g. If I have a challenge to sacrifice 4 players in basement, I have to keep trying to take that player to basement. If they keep sitting in a corner and ensuring I can't do it, and otherwise won't try to escape, isn't the survivor the one who is not engaging in normal gameplay and thus holding the game hostage?
Edit: I'd also appreciate the distinction made between a survivor where they have a Myers staring at them survivor in a locker, vs. a Myers who is carrying them as far from lockers as possible and then trying to catch them before they make it back to the same locker.
The latter is more obviously trying to play the game and get their kill, but the end result of both scenarios seems to be the result of the same problem, where it is the survivor that is not trying to reach hatch, and is the one holding up the game.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681624#Comment_3681624
Achievements aren't part of the base gameplay, using the argument that a match couldn't be completed or played to the end because of an achievement is silly.
I've told this plenty of times but I'll tell it again, I've given the Myers his kills before for Tombstone, and multiple times they've already had the achievement for years, so I'm absolutely going to be hopping into lockers at any point in the match if I can't make it to a pallet, I've never had an achievement given to me and I'll never try to help someone out with theirs, either.
They absolutely are part of the base game, things like throwing the rest of the team under the bus for Hemophobia, slugging and sweating for adepts, even things like the Tome challenges to hook all players in basement or get 4 hooks in end game collapse.
This all encourages more unfriendly and toxic styles of play to accomplish, this stuff is absolutely in the base game.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
This is my Elodie fit. Love the way the Blood Moon top looks with these fishnets and that hat.
Strong Bloodborne vibes 🤘
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@Lixadonna said:
So petty. Heaven forbid Survivor does anything fun besides slamming Gens.
@Clee said:
This is why the game sucks.
They give us a niche perk, you try to run it, have a bit of fun, and spoil sports want to bleed you out for it.
Be the change.......
What are talking about? Making it super obvious that's what's you're trying to do, to make a play that gives you and your team more time... and you blame the killer for not falling for it? XD
That's just silly... the killer is better leaving you down there, cause you're not on gens, and someone else has to go IN BASEMENT to save you. That's a potential 2 in 1...
And niche!? The perk is an awesome perk without the basement guaranteed Kobe... 20s aura read off hook? Thats anti-tunnel wall hacks and guaranteed under hook heals... just run it normally and then use if you get put in basement.
Why are you trying to force it and giving the killer super obvious tells? You can't ask a killer to play dumb so that you can pull off a silly strategy... come on now xD
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A ban in either case is ridiculous. Both players are playing by the rules BHVR have set.
They made the achievement the way it is. They made the Killer have to go for standing executions only to get it, and they made the only true counter to it be to sit in lockers.
The killer is playing by the rules that BHVR have set; he can't grab out of locker because then he can't execute the survivor, or if he does he has to let the survivor wiggle off, which the survivor can just jump back into the locker.
Both players understand the terms of what is going on. If the survivor refuses to try and escape the match, then if anyone is to blame for taking the game hostage, it's the survivor, but even that's a bit of a stretch.
"Taking the game hostage" for playing by the rules of the achievement is stupid, and a case of the survivor reaping what they're sowing here. If you want to deny the achievement, fine... but you don't get to complain about being made to wait when you're the one who is refusing to play.
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@_Onyx_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681173#Comment_3681173
Ideally using only 2 Bottles per chase doesn't necessarily mean only using the Tonic. For example, if you get a Survivor at a long pallet tile but position yourself so that when you break it they don't gain much distance, on top of using the Antidote right on top of you before you break it, you'll catch up and be on them in minimal time.
You're spot on about Clowns being heavily punished by a mistake. But that's where the extra bottles at basekit buff helps out. Before, using a Bottle and getting nothing out of it meant you most likely would need to reload mid-chase to try and rectify it. Now you can make that mistake and have enough Bottles not to worry about the reload as much. Best time to reload is usually after you've just got a hook and have moved off to pressure the next Survivor. I use the word "ideally" a lot in Clown topics because if you have a goal play style as him, then being able to measure your current experiences in the context of the match you're in with that ideal, you get a better understanding as to whether you're on the back foot or if you're doing all that is physically possible in that match, regardless of if you've got the momentum or not. So, for example, if you ideally have a minimum of 1 Bottle, or at most 2, left after you've just got a hook and have started your next chase or pressured them off of a gen, you can use an Antidote directly on top of the gen to gain the Haste effect after you have kicked it and then reloaded to be at your strongest, and then catch up to the Survivor afterwards wasting the least time.
When it comes to unfavorable maps or tile rng, as Clown, you need to know when it's worth even using your Bottle to slow them down or Invigorate yourself. If they have a god pallet and you most likely will just get them to drop it wether you've slowed them or not, it ain't worth the Bottle. If they have a strong window into a strong pallet, getting them to drop the pallet quickly in the chase, it's definitely worth using a Bottle. This is where it all comes full circle of Clown not being as punished for having to use more Bottle in a chase to get the down because of the buff to his capacity.
It's a risky game mixing the two Bottle types in a chase, in the broader picture of it. The 05 faster activation is still too long in my opinion. If they made it activate in 1 seconds, that would be perfect.
I'd say, the only time to mix and match is if you've practiced a style with both bottles and know when to utilise it. An example, when Antidotes were introduced, I experimented with them to see if it's worth using them at close distance to get a hit directly into the Haste effect. Turns out, this is only viable in tiles where the Survivor is healthy and is gonna get to a vault and perform a fast vault regardless of whether you intoxicated them or not. Using it in a situation where a Survivor can turn after the hit and use the Invigoration as well as you is a situation I put myself in numerous times when experimenting with the Antidote.
Antidotes are best used when the Survivor is guaranteed to get distance, so you can minimise how far they can go. Tonics are best used to confirm a hit in loops that would usually waste time you can't afford to waste. Since the nerf to the blur effect, it does simplify how and when to use the Tonic, which is a good and bad thing. You don't need to use them to try to mindgame when a Survivor is pallet camping anymore. But it also means those hits what could have been turned into a 50/50 are now more in a Survivor side and you just need to get it dropped before playing around your power.
Ultimately, Clown is just one of those killers where you need to rack up that experience in order to truly feel his strength, which from reading how you speak, you know that already. That's also a reason why I am scared of any nerf or buff Clown gets, because touching the wrong thing either way, could lead to Clown being too brain-dead and a monster in chase, or you end up with a Killer that has an anti-loop power but no actual power to actually anti-loop with it lol
Solid points throughout. Nothing I can disagree with there really, thanks for the in depth explanation dude.
It is a fair concern Clown becoming brain dead if his chase is made stronger, would make him unsatisfying for people who do put in the time.
@Snowbawlzzz said:
As a Clown main, I hesitate to ask for Clown buffs because it would just look like I'm salt-posting, but years ago someone had the thought of letting Clown bust bottles on generators to make them repair slower and/or have Huntress Lullaby on them. I thought that would be a good way to give Clown mild map pressure while he chases a survivor.
I like that kind of idea.
I was thinking along this kind of line myself, where survivors get a lingering effect after getting hit with a bottle, like an intoxication effect that affects fine motor skill actions. E.g.
Getting hit by a tonic bottle makes it so for the next 80s, skillchecks appear in pink and misty (just a nice cloudy effect that doesn't obscure but gets the idea across) , do not have a Great skill check zone, and has an additional 30% chance of triggering skillchecks. Using items have a heal/repair speed penalty of 25% (similar idea to don't use tools when intoxicated).
This would make it so that players have to constantly be dealing with skillchecks and making it harder to pay attention to the environment, with the potential to be interrupted for a big skillcheck regression miss, and of course reward Clown when he hits 2 players with a bottle at the same time. Self healing especially starts having issues here.
I think something like that would be a nice little buff that gets the idea across in lieu of losing his intoxication disorientation effect. This would also synergise with Clowns own perk Coulrophobia.
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@_Onyx_ said:
I wouldn't necessarily say he's weak now. Clown was always that killer (and this is not exclusive to him, a lot of the roster suffer with this) that no matter how good you get with him, or how well you play a chase, if the tile rng is in the Survivors favour, or the map is just too big to navigate between pressure, you will probably lose.
This is why the best builds for Clown are a mixture of detection and chase builds. You constantly need to be on someone at all times with Clown. Any down time for Survivors cripples him.
This is why the changes to Clown aren't that bad. The visibility reduction does make certain deceptive plays that you could previously attempt to do impossible now. But the 6 Bottles makes his meta add-on choices even better now. And not needing to reload as much is definitely a huge buff. Since experienced Clowns, such as myself have always said to people trying to improve with him or disprove their claims that he is bottom tier, that you ideally only need two bottles at max in a single chase to get a down. (Again, this is why I said map and tile rng cripples him)
Map reliance does seem a strong argument. That might explain why the Clown's I've been facing got crushed, especially if lowbie survivors are making fewer mistakes now the disorientation is gone (I know I certainly am making much fewer mistakes).
Trusting your opinion, as I haven't played Clown all that much... I can play him quite well and I tend to prefer m1 killers, but his concept didn't gel with me... if I want to cut off paths for survivors, I found closing things down prior and playing it with Trapper more satisyifng personally. So with that in mind, 2 bottles for a down? 1 per health state? Doesn't that mean that you barely even use the yellow antidote bottles at all in chase?
I would have thought the tile RNG would be somewhat overcome by correctly linking Tonic and Antidotes together, something the faster deploy and longer duration on antidote would help resolve, especially in conjunction with the extra bottles... the implication being knowing exactly when and where to place both would take a lot of practise and precision... a level of both which makes it understandable non-Clown mains find him extremely lacklustre. As stated prior, small mistakes from Clown snowball out of control very quickly.
The obvious point here is that if you only use 1 bottle per health state, that his means his net changes primarily consist of removal of disorientaiton for the benefit of more bottles. The visual distortion ofc destroyed low level players, but even high level players, it made them more suceptable to mind games, because keeping track of the red light and Clowns facing/movement was much harder while affected by Tonic. This is made up for with the extra bottles to reduce reloads and perhaps reduce the precision requirements of Clown... but to me it seems a pretty even trade at best...
Wouldn't we say having a heavy reliance on map RNG, where when in goes against him there isn't really anything he can do, DOES mean he is weak? As I say, I'm not really complaining, cause the disorientation messed me up hard every time... but I have noticed Clown feels much easier to go against each time I've played against him. Had another yesterday, the man had 5 hooks by the time the last gen popped.... and the kinda argument is... if the Clown's skill ceiling is so low, but takes so much practise to be affective, and STILL get smashed by RNG... why would a new player seriously consider playing him?
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If the killer hits you, he takes your droplet.... then you just need a stun...
- Decisive Strike
- Off the Record to a pallet and eat a hit as you throw the pallet in the killers face.
Heck you can even do the pallet thing right at the start of the game if you're the first survivor found... I got it literally the first game/first pallet I tried.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680225#Comment_3680225
I mean to break it down to the basics to get a hit as killer you need to outplay the survivor, to avoid a hit as survivor you don't need to outplay the other side you just need to not get outplayed... Might seem to be semantics at first but I think it is a bit more than that. The whole concept is basically that you need to force the other side into making mistakes, and very few killers can get hits despite the other side not making mistakes.
The question to these categories is at what skill level? Because as soon as you go beyond average those categories don't exist anymore in this way. Really good survivors or comp survivors won't lose against some of those killers that are average and even wins against spirit nurse or Blight can happen rather frequently. But sure if we look at the average survivor then maybe.
You don't need to master every loop, you can also just kick the pallet... Like that's the whole point, you can train to be able to outplay the pallets Gideons or you just force the drop and kick it... And most tiles have similar solutions anyway... So the effort is not that big to get a rough idea of what to do. I think for clown the 20 80 rule should somewhat apply, with 20% of the work towards mastery you will get around 80% of the result... Most tiles should work by the same rule, just some special ones require seperate plans that need to be learned first.
Some killers only have good anti loop and nothing else and are still considered really good, for example Deathslinger. I d be curious to see how the clown guide creator performs against really good or even comp survivors.
Fair enough, I mean he's not traditionally been unplayable, but most things I've seen prior to these changes rank Clown pretty low, and my facing him and playing as him tends to agree. The only reputable person I know who disagrees Clown is quite weak is the 200 page guide creator, who is probably the best Clown player, and has mastered him, and it's like... what if you sink the same time into a Killer stronger at base? Is Clown really "Balanced", or is this player just that much a freak Clown player that he evens out the Clowns weaknesses? Hard to say, but of course this was all prior to the changes.
With the recent changes, he seems easier to face to me, and on the old version, even experienced and skilled survivors in my experience make more mistakes vs. Clown bottle disorientation that can lead to hits than without. A bit like Doctor skill checks generally don't affect skilled players too much, but they go from never missing a skillcheck to sometimes missing a skillcheck, Clown is the same. They go from almost never making a mistake to occasionally making a mistake.
That to me suggests that overall Clown hasn't been buffed. At best he's had his strongest add-on nerfed, and otherwise come out even, which means he's equal/weaker overall to where he was before.
If you think he's perfectly balanced as he is then fair play I guess, and we'll have to agree to disagree.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680179#Comment_3680179
Average performance means average killer doesn't it? A bit of a contradiction to say the killer is weak because he performs average... I don't know how good Clown is when masters, but I would say at least average,maybe even better. And I would not say clown is hard to master, Billy is hard to master because of the mechanical skill, clown seems to be more of a learning thing similar to trapper, you don't need mechanical skill but knowledge how to use the bottles not necessarily be super precise how to throw them? Therefore I think hard to master is not accurate... More like time consuming to master?
I think even without tombstone he is still a lot better than Freddy... But yeah sure, people think of him as stronger because of the addon, but we should not value a single addon so highly as to push up the killer a lot because of it.
I mean that once again just sounds like weak players... That's the same with me and some nurses... I had games where I ran a nurse the entire game around the house side of dead dog, and not because of i am good but because the nurse was super trash... To evaluate whether the clowns you go against know what they are doing or not should be rather simple, do they use yellow bottles? No? - > in experienced clown or loop that is not playable... Usually it is fairly easy to tell whether or not the opposing player is decent or not...
Well I was kinda meaning that it seems to me you have to be a fair bit better at Clown than the respective skill of the survivors to go even. When I was saying "average", I was talking relative.
Balanced killers should be survivors vs. killers of equal skill should mostly go even, such as Ghost Face, Huntress, Demogorgon.
Overpowered killers would be survivors vs. killers of equal skill resulting in more killer wins, such as Nurse, Blight, Spirit.
Underpowered killers would be survivors vs. killers of equal skill should result in more survivor wins, such as Myers, Trapper, maybe Sadako.
To me Clown always fell in the latter, where at even levels of skill will usually result in Clown getting ties or beaten, and wins come from Survivors making a horrendous mistake. This has been what I've seen from content creators and my own experience as and against, and suffice to say you shouldn't need to master every loop and tile in every map to be beating scrubs like me and my level.
As Clown when I've faced a good set of survivors you really feel it. This happens on all killers ofc, but on Clown (prior to these changes) it doens't take many mistakes for a game to start slipping irredeemably away from you. There is a reason he tends to be ranked low. His problems is he's basically got 1 thing, really good anti loop. So I'm not saying that a good Clown player will not be able to win games, but it seems to me the relative skill level of Clown needs to be higher than on other killers in order to win, and he has a pretty clear skill ceiling that at best makes him only average (and that is debatable).
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680167#Comment_3680167
I mean there are a lot of killers that require a lot of work and time investment to get good results with and people still took the time to learn them, for example Billy, before the rework, ofc currently all the effort is basically worth it. I don't know man, I didn't read it entirely either, because 200 pages is too excessive and I don't particularly like clown. But he is capable of good results... Just because it takes a lot of effort does not mean he is weak, you could say he is weak unless you take a big amount of time to learn him, but as far as I'm concerned, that would be a good thing. It should take you some time to learn how to play a specific killer... Would be awful if every killer is as simple to learn and master as for example legion.
I mean ofc he would not recommend it... It is a 200 page guide xD The majority of players probably play more than 1 killer and the amount of time it takes to work through that and remember the stuff is just completely out of balance for the casual gamers. Which is fair, like I said I'm also not too interested in it, but that does not mean there is no potential.
I would say it is a buff... The blurry effect didn't have much of an impact on decent players, and just because 1 iri addon got nerfed shouldn't result in such a downgrade, because in that case you are only taking into account one addon... That's like saying Myers is a better killer than he is because of tombstone piece.
You could however say his average strength got increased but maybe his max strength got slightly decreased, we could compromise on that I think... But as it is an iri addon you cannot run every game unless you have excessive amounts o BP spend on him I don't think the nerf to that addon is too big of a deal for his overall strength.
I never thought of clown as weak, his chase is actually quite good, it is just that he has nothing besides his chase... I guess the two extra bottles give him slightly better map control... But yeah... I still like Scott's changes for clown with the teleport feature, the whole concept was quite fun ^^
I mean, I get what you're saying, but Hillbilly is rewarded now because he's been buffed... for years he has only been played by a handful of players, who yes have mastered and can play him well... but even with their mastery, is outclassed by a good portion of the roster on much less masterful players... doesn't that by definition mean that the killer is weak? Difficult to learn, hard to master, and average performance when you do master him?
Regarding Myers, he absolutely IS artificially propped by Tombstone Piece. He similarly can't be buffed because that add-on exists. Myers is one of the weakest killers in the game (for the record, I love normal Myers, both playing against and as)... but the only reason he has any threat at all is he MIGHT (and probably does) have Tombstone Piece. I've usually been killed when he's somehow managed to stalk himself up to EW2 99 within 40s of the start on a teammate then surprises me with an instant pop Tombstone Piece stab.
It's fair if you see Clown doing well. I'm asking for peoples experiences, but my experience thus far facing Clown, is he's been smashed every game... as I say, I barely even saw him in 3 games, because it took him so long to catch anyone, I never needed to come off gens to help the team. Clown has always been my achilles heel, I play awful against him, and even I was able to waste so much of his time when he came after me in the forth game... I don't have a big sample size, cause I rarely see him, and few times I have, he seemed to get beaten up. 3/4k everytime, and even the 3k, was cause it took him an ages to tunnel out 1 player.
If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but he doesn't look particularly strong right now.
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Y'know, initially I thought that was a terrible idea.... but when I actually think about it... dropping from height is usually a death sentence anyway, as unless you have BL, you are probably going to eat a hit 90% of the time unless you drop SUPER early... there are few places you can realistically drop from and expect to reasonably get away with it without BL.
With this hex in play, it's a guaranteed wound, but the survivor gets a speed boost off the injury to make some distance, but won't make as much distance as they would from eating a hit after the drop...
It actually feels niche enough to warrant consideration. Balanced Landing being affected too is probably fine, because you'll recover faster from teh drop, and get both +50% from BL and +65% from the post hit boost as well... so BL would actually get mad distance off this... It's a more interesting idea than I initially thought.
Although i think the name needs work... Sprained Ankles as a perk sounds pretty funny...
"I Hex you! WIth sprained ankles!"
One shudders to imagine the cruel, insidious, depravity that lies behind such eyes... xD
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/408595/so-clown-looks-pretty-weak
There is a 200+ pages clown guide, Otzdarva made a video about it, and the guy that wrote it basically explained how to outplay every loop in the game, clown is not weak, people just don't play him well enough, me included. And the blur effect felt quite useless anyway, so I Don think it changed much about his power to remove it.
Ok... but why would anyone read a 200 page guide and practise for 1000's of hours on a M1 killer who has no additional utility or strength outside of closing off loops to get to that level instead of playing a killer you don't have to master to be effective? Maybe Doctor? Artist? Dredge? Cenobite?
I don't even like Clown, playing as or against, but being as unbiased as I can be, the man has for years been touted as a killer needing buffs, but couldn't ever be given them because Pinky Finger exists, and any buff would make Clown oppressive with that add-on. That is actually something that I can quote Otzdarva saying himself. If we're going to reference Otzdarva, that very video you're referring to, he points out that he tried the suggestions in the 200 guide, and I'm paraphrasing, but his conclusion was there are some good and very interesting points, but it's not something he would recommend to majority of players.
Clown finally got that add-on nuked, and has had the visual effect taken off his tonics, in exchange got 2 more bottles, and a half second faster antidote cloud spawn, and a 1s longer antidote speed boost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those nerfs seem to outweigh the buffs, or at the very least go even... but if he was supposedly weak without Pinky Finger... what exactly has changed to say that Clown is now balanced?
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679893#Comment_3679893
in a shocking development, it turns out the Crow of Judgement might in fact not be a crow, but a grackle! a bird unrelated to corvids!
(this is like, entirely irrelevant but i gotta dump this info somewhere)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/01QO4MOYAO8M/image.png
^ bronzed grackle
I left this thread more cultured than I came in. Thankyou.