UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@ChuckingWong said:
They have just moved on from one broken killer to another. Its sad that ... a majority of killer players enjoy doing this. I tend to be pretty forgiving in this game when I play killer but some people are.... taking their frustrations out in a video game and will do anything to win, including using horrible tactics (camping, tunneling, broken add-ons) to using broken killers ie: Nurse, Billy, Blight.
Sadako was never in need of buffs and certainly did NOT need what she had last patch. Maybe an update to her addons and the manifest no pallet stun. But the rest was a complete joke, I suspect defenders of this 100% only play killer side in this game. There is no way anyone who plays both roles thought this playstyle was fair or intended to face.
No data ever released by the company ever suggested she needed a significant buff. This is purely on the players that were struggling with her that had issues. Many wished for her to be brought back to what she was before the update. She is now back to what she was with little bonuses here and there. Which is fine.
However,
Billy is now in this unfair and broken category. He was buffed so much that its put him above blight (without broken blight tag of course) in power. His turn radius, his collision reduction, 0 overheat, 0 cooldown, movement speed, map traversal... ALL rewarded with overdrive which empowers all of these... All with a one hit down mechanic and can cancel/fake his power at any time. This is not where we should be putting killers in terms of their power, its too much. I dont blame survivors from inting themselves against him.
Similarly no data suggested he was struggling to such a low degree. I am guessing most of these changes are on the heels of people getting, a minority of their matches I might add, competitive SWF opponents that make the killer feel powerless. SWF is a complete broken version of playing this game we shouldnt be balancing anything killer side to match that level of play. Every killer out there already can stomp solo pubs just fine currently(this is excluding broken grim embrace and its combos).
To the developers:
Stop making changes to killers because people are upset in competitive SWF matches. Solo's are stomped, in the majority of matches, no matter what killer you use. I would also guess most SWF's (party friends, joking around) are stomped as well. The high end of grouped survivors are not what we should balance killer power around.
Thank you!
I have a lot less sympathy for SoloQ players than most tbh, because the problem you've got is people don't bother to learn how to play the game, and you can't balance around these people either.
I have less than 1000 hours in this game and been playing since May, so of everyone here, I have a pretty good idea of the "new player experience in modern DBD" than most... yes it is a monolith of a game to learn, but there is so much content available for it, anyone who wants to get decent at DBD can do so quite easily. I got to a capable level I'd say within 100 hours, maybe 2 months, which was easier than Counter Strike back in the day, which took me nearly half a year. Bear in mind, I also have been playing DBD with severe arthritis in my hands due to a genetic condition. SoloQ is not as bad as people say.
The problem with a lot of players I see again and again is they don't check their egos at the door, and they don't bother to learn how to play against atypical killers.
Pinhead absolutely crushes pub teams, to the point where for a while I didn't like playing him because everyone I played against had no idea how he works and made no attempt to deal with the box. However I liked and still like playing against Pinhead, because he's decently strong without being oppressive... I have that opinion because I actually bothered to learn how he works, and anyone who knows how he works knows Pinhead is not that strong, yet he absolutely crushes soloQ. Tbh, and not to be an elitist jerk... I've never understood why people struggle to learn facing Pinhead at all. His power is pretty simple and straight forward to understand to my mind, yeah it crushes you the first time, but after that you should be able to figure out and understand what the threat is and what you had to do... and I faced him a number of times in the throngs of noob central before I played him myself.
Old Sadako was in the same boat. She only really scored well because your average pub player didn't bother to learn how she worked. Though a number of people love her old design, she objectively had a number of design problems. I probably wouldn't have buffed her the way BHVR did, but her original incarnation was certainly not perfect, and did need buffs.
I'd cite her 100s cooldown on a TV after teleport vs. 70s from survivor disabling the TV as exhibit A. This is completely backwards and a baffling configuration, that I'd use as the obvious daft wrong answer in a multiple choice test for students studying game design. Requiring an iri add-on to turn those TVs back on as the main way of her becoming viable only highlights how daft that set up was.
Sadako just like Pig and Pinhead was actually quite weak, she only scored well on kill rate because all of these killers have the same thing in common... they are not intense mechanics killers, they are killers you actually have to think around and engage with their slow down mechanics. People say its hard to learn all these different killer powers, but for anyone even remotely interested in genuinely learning DBD, it is not hard, it just takes a little passion and effort. I am proof of it.
PTB Sadako was the nearest to perfect incarnation that Sadako needed, and I was hyped to play both as and against her... and I'm quietly hoping they just revert her back to PTB, preferably with @radiantHero23s fixes.
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Can anyone tell me what the "after moving 16m away from hook" trigger on Grim Embrace is for? I actually can't figure it out. AFC prevents camping in that range, so it ain't that..
My only thought is it gives the killer a chance to get a head start on heading towards gens before it pops to have a better chance seeing survivor leave gens? Other than that I got nothing...
You change it so that it is immediately triggers on hook, and that resolves the problem as you usually let go for Pain Res anyway. This neuter the power of DMS immediately.
I can see instead a build like GE, Pop and Nowhere to Hide being a good combo instead, and DMS does fit there.
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Someone get onto Spooky Loopz and convince him to play tiny Nemesis. It is only now I realise how much I need it.
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Tombstone Piece I agree, Judith Myers Tombstone I don't agree.
JMT is actually balanced with a very hefty trade off in both stalk time and movement speed. Myers with JMT is a 4.24 m/s killer with no tools to catch up other than PWYF, and (without Tombstone Piece in the picture) is fairly easy to spot given how much time he needs to stalk, and can be pretty easily countered by lockers, and for brave survivors, windows and pallets.
He needs to completely deplete the stalk on 2 survivors before he can even start getting kills, and the time he takes against any even halfway competent team is liable to lose most of the gens if not all of them.
Myers is the most roleplay effective killer in DBD, a license that is almost shocking accurately to its source, and JMT is an iri that further supports that, and is not something that should be casually thrown away.
Though it is a bit of a juggernaut to read, I will throw my rework for him into the equation, as despite the lack of feedback, I'm still pretty proud of it, the main point being what he needs is some assistance with detection and map mobility, in combinations with some QoL and greater power spikes in EW3 to bring him off the bottom tiers:
@UndeddJester said:
Myers is not on the list for a rework in the first half of 2024, but given BHVRs recent work rate, I have faith him and Freddy are in their plans. As such, this is my last suggestion thread for Myers, before I trust BHVRs eventual plans (I solemnly swear!). I'll add my thoughts and reasoning in spoilers afterwards... but the short is, these are additions that don't change his core mechanics much... and there is a strong reason I went this route instead of the complete rework route.
TLDR
Basekit changes:
- Stalk pool for each survivor replenishes at a rate of 1 stalk per minute after 5 seconds of not being stalked.
- Stalk gains a bonus 10% stalk rate when stood completely still during stalk.
- Myers base movement speed is increased to 5.2 m/s, and is reduced to his EW tier when less than 32m from any survivor. (Mark with a debuff of his EW Icon)
- EW2 - Pallet break time is reduced by 7.5% (2.16s)
- EW3 - Pallet break time is reduced by 15% (1.98s)
Add-On changes:
- Tombstone Piece: Stalks survivors +20% faster while stationary. Survivors replenish stalk pool at a rate of 2.5 stalk per minute.
Quick Points:
- Allows better stalking at long range when not moving to better reflect the films, and rewards positioning well. (See Stationary Stalk Bonus section)
- Allows him to move quickly and 'sense' survivors with a built in Whispers to start stalking. (See Movement Speed increase while at distance)
- Ensures he keeps his power all game, and prevents rats from blocking his power. (See Stalk Pool Replenishment)
- Makes his EW3 more potent to account for loss of TP execution.
- All 4 changes make Judith Myers Tombstone more viable, without removing it's main balancing weaknesses, so the threat of instant execution Myers remains real.
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To try and add something useful to this conversation, I think it is important to consider where Nea herself was as a Punk and the connotations therein:
Nea grew up in the small town of Hjo in Sweden. She had a happy childhood even though her mom and dad worked hard. As the opportunity to move to the US became a reality she started acting out. Her parents didn’t really pick up on this as a reaction to their move. Nea was forced to leave her friends and life behind.
This would mean that depending on what part of the US Nea was in, lace code might have been prominent enough to warrant a second look. From what I can gather, it was a significant part of US punk culture particularly in California, but I'm not so sure about states like New York (Which I would guess would be more likely for a Swedish migrant). Apparently it was never a thing for punk culture in the UK. If lace code is still carrying the same historic meaning in the US today, and that is where Nea was living when she became a punk, then yes the OPs point may actually be valid here depending on the State.
However it's also not an automatic issue, because if lace code is no longer practised in Punk culture in California, or she is canonically from a completely different part of the US that didn't have lace code, then it doesn't apply.
@insomniac_743 I know far less about US Punk culture, would you mind citing and sharing any knowledge you may have (I assume you are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am).
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Quite the philosophical debate here huh? At what point do you draw the line about who and how small a group it's OK to offend?
For example the f-word regarding homosexual men is an American word that has become so widespread in that particular usage that it transitioned into British English, but where I come from, for my entire childhood it meant a type of meatball similar in composition to meatloaf, and took a while to become socially taboo here because no one understood the American meaning. Obviously can't use it any more because it has now predominantly become used that way in the UK as well, but it would not be taboo were it not for the homogenisation of American and British culture via the Internet.
If you do this for every culture and sub-culture, you're bound to hit a point where everything becomes offensive to one culture or another, and where the western world has such a mixed culture now, there aren't really rules for any culture, as every individual falls on the various scales somewhere, and any assumption you are making based on their suspected culture is probably wrong...
Regarding the case here... a significant number of people won't have a clue about this part of Punk culture... even among punks... so the argument is valid one... but what we're effectively debating in this thread is how few people know about it, and therefore how much does it matter?
Just throwing this out there... I'm offended by Boy Bands.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640699#Comment_3640699
Thanks for the info! I'll test the speed from the browser and see how I go. Kind of funny that the portable Nintendo Switch works smoother than this 😅
Yeah, I think Sony was attempting to compete with the Switch, but to do so had to find a way to get PS5 games on a handheld device...
Which is... ambitious at least... but the only way they could even try was to try to stream to the Portal instead of having its hardware run the game itself...
It's effectively a wireless TV with a PS controller stapled on trying to send all the video data over the Internet 😁
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640679#Comment_3640679
Cheers. I thought I had a good internet connection, but if it's stuttering then I'm guessing not?
It might be to be fair, more often than not upload speed is an afterthought, because your average user only needs to download really with minimal uploading.
You can test it with https://www.netmeter.co.uk/
Preferably from your PlayStation browser if possible to account for your Playstations connection to your router as well. You'll also need to check the network where you're connecting your portal as well (though I doubt this is where any bottlenecks are, if you're on 5g or WiFi connection then you should be getting bandwidth in Gigs).
I'm trying to think how you'd test the portal itself, because the quality of it's WiFi adapter and its connection to the network will also be a factor as well... but I'd guess that wasn't the issue (hopefully).
Regardless it should help you narrow down what part of the system is slow for you.
EDIT: also depends on PS Remote Play, and what it allows. For peace of mind with the portal, try playing it via remote play from inside your own network, cause if it isn't able to do that, you've go no hope 😅
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Your big issue is that you're dependant on the connection from your home network to your PS Portal.
Remote Play can be used with a mobile data connection or Wi-Fi. Broadband internet with at least 5Mbps is required. For a better Remote Play experience, a high-speed connection of at least 15Mbps is recommended using either Wi-Fi or mobile data connection
Most home Internet connections don't care about upload speed and your average hoke network I would doubt is really capable of the kind of upload speeds you would want to do this smoothly.
I think the main advantage of the Portal to my understanding was if your family was watching TV or whatever, you would be able to play the PlayStation still without having to move it or set up another TV.
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@H2H said:
Apparently this is not a bug: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/404001/save-the-best-for-last-is-bugged-on-slinger-actually-bugged#latest
Guess that's the trade off... though it seems weird that Deathslinger seems to be thrown on the after between MFT and STBFL.
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Apparently the MMR system has an individual killer score, and an overall killer score. So if you're new to Hillbilly, your score with him is low, but your overall MMR score is high... so you will get survivors somewhere in the middle.
One way of looking at it, if you are losing consistently, your overall MMR is dropping so you'll be facing easier and easier survivors as time goes on, so your capacity to learn will fall in line with your level, and tbf, the Deep end isn't a flawed way to learn if you go in with the right expectations.
I'm not convinced the old system for matchmaking was better at all, as you only need to look at the PTB to see what non-MMR games are like. Heck I'm convinced that the reason Sadako got gutted was purely because feedback from the PTB came from people who literally didn't read the patch notes and ignored tapes the whole game.
The number of bambies is staggering... I had some notion that only experienced players play the PTB... because what casual goes playing a development test build?
Yet... I've been playing less than 1000 hours, and yet some of the survivors I've seen in PTB footage make me look pretty damned competent... Admittedly I've been obsessively playing and consuming DBD content like a taller, hairier, more horror inclined version of my high functioning autistic nephew... (seriously you should see that kid on Geometry Dash... it's almost scary... I'm very proud of his gaming acumen 😅)... but still.
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@GeneralV said:
February 7th, if I am not mistaken.
And its only on for a week? Damn... I'm not gonna get back home in time to even see it. 😥
I wonder how it's gonna work... is everyone gonna be in the event by default? Or I wonder if the changes to the menu are there to facilitate creation of a separate "event" queue.
It'd be really cool if there was like a weekly events queue players can hope is for casual play and goofing about outside the main game. Effectively being the "unranked" queue.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639644#Comment_3639644
One Pump Willie made a whole video about this. Basically survivors can't be bothered to pick up tapes.
It was crazy too, cause I've only ever seen him being a pretty cheerful and upbeat guy. He was making it entertaining and funny, but you could tell he was genuinely annoyed about it.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639435#Comment_3639435
I never knew why everyone blamed Sony. Thank you for that information.
Aye its all available on a quick Google search. Of course, this was information from 2019, which is coming to nearly 5 years ago now.
Who knows what the situation is now, especially since the COVID games market boon, companies will be wanting to attract players more than ever after that highly successful few years.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Twins really has potential to be popular killer. Victor is fun to use. But i really hate so much to slug survivor and make Charlotte move to pick survivor up. This is boring and that's the only reason i don't play them so much.
They added amazing way to pick up survivor for Chucky. I hope they make Twins similar too, so i can play them. I am waiting for Twins update.
One thing that would make that less of a complete chore is if they would let you go straight back to Charlotte on a down.
Like yes Victor's recovery is long as hell to limit slugging, fine, but if I wanna go back to Charlotte to hook, just let me...
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639276#Comment_3639276
Cross progression as a technical constraint is not hard. The hard part is cross-play, which they have already have. Likely it is a policy situation. My understanding on cross progression for most games is that sony has a horribly policy where like, if they lose a percentage of revenue of their cut when you do cross progression, you have to recoup their "loss" from your other platforms based on a percentage of sales.
Basically, sony makes you pay for things not on their platform if they think they aren't making enough money from you on their platform. Pretty terrible imo.
The fact it's not available on other platforms either kinda throws shade on all console platforms in general tbh.
Only reason Sony gets flack is the actual official Sony policy has been leaked, which is actually an illegal document for someone to have shared, as anyone with access to it is under an NDA... and you can bet other platforms have the same kind of agreements.
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I'd probably suggest waiting for mid chapter fixes, there are a few issues with the latest patch that might annoy a tad....
@radiantHero23 said:
DO NOT PLAY SADAKO
I shouldn't smile... but I can practically feel your rage vibrating through my screen 🤣
I'm quietly hoping the kick back BHVR have had on this will putlshbthem to revert back to PTB Sadako at the very least. 😁
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Huh... I made this suggestion... using how PWYF works for this change to STBFL... I was not aware of it myself that PWYF behaves that way on Deathslinger and especially not Trickster... so I can't really criticise BHVR too badly since I made the exact same oversight... 😒
So with that being case this sounds its an issue that both perks could do with their logic modifying to account for both killers...
I guessed BHVR had PWYF stack loss tied to scoring events, which is how they discounted certain special attacks on PWYF and not others... If that assumption is correct, it sounds like PWYF and STBFL are counting on the events:
- Speared for Deathslinger (then is getting a seperaye proc again for the basic attack). This should be changed to 'Off the Hook', as the basic attack will handle it on its own.
- Trickster Knives I would guess is Blood Bonus? Not sure if Trickster scoresper knife, but if so, should be changed to Blade Hit.
Ofc if I'm wrong, may revolve around some weird logic that loosely defines 'attack'... which may be trickier to solve.
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Man, I get exponentially irritated when facing spin techs.
1 or 2 I can tolerate, and I can deal with them well enough, it just takes far more effort and screwing around to manage on console than I would like, and quickly erodes my usual desire to play fun and chill.
There have been plenty of times I've caught a spin techer near basement as the final gen is powered, and I'm a little ashamed to admit I hook them downstairs with this kind of energy...
Click to view the GIFHopefully with the FOV changes my murder trigger stays off...
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@TetroXyD said:
It didn't take me long to encounter the anti-3-gen system in-game. I mainly play Singularity (which involves a rather defensive gameplay) with Surge and Nowhere to Hide (a setup where generators often regress). Even when playing casually, due to my perks, especially Surge, I've already come across some matches with generators almost stuck in the mid-game.
I even believe I've observed survivors intentionally bringing every generator they come across to 1% progression so that each generator quickly experiences its 8 regression events.
On paper, this system seemed good. However, in practice, the system interferes in "normal" matches where it is not supposed to be necessary. Worse yet, some survivors might already be attempting to exploit the system to their advantage.
That's sneaky.
Changes I would suggest off of reading things in this thread:
- The first survivor who touches a regressing generator sets a marker at the point they started repair (the lower bound) and the point at 5% progression from that point (the upper bound). These points are not removed until either the generator regresses below the lower bound or is repaired above the upper bound. In the event of a bran new part installed during this interval, the points are recalculated based on the relative low bound point.
- A generator must lose a minimum of 5% repair progress to count as a regression event.
As an aside I know it isn't needed, but I was messing around with a Huntress who went friendly after my team all gave up and left fir whatever reason, and we checked this regression thing.
I was a little disappointed to see that there were no spikes on the gen to say it was protected by the entity... I don't need it ofc, and it'd probably confuse people rather than help... but it would have been cool to see the shiny new thing on survivor side 😔
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@Reinami said:
After just a few games, i finding that GE+DMS isn't as strong as people make it out to be for a couple reasons. Firstly, you lose a good chunk of the value of GE to the DMS since they don't stack DMS just takes priority. Additionally. To trigger the GE for the DMS to proc as well, you need to move 16 meters away from the hook. And this takes a little under 4 seconds. Meaning at best you are getting 26 seconds of value from the DMS.
Additionally, i have found that survivors after just a few games are already adapting, and similar to the old Pain res + DMS combo where they let go of the gen just before the hook happened, they are letting go of the gen a couple seconds after a hook, meaning the DMS never ends up proccing. Then you wait the 12 seconds for the GE,. and by then you only have 12 more seconds of DMS left if they hit the gen.
The big problem i see with the perk though, is the opposite problem. If survivors let go of a gen suspecting the DMS+GE combo like they did with the pain res + pop one, how the GE activates is the problem. It is entirely in control of the killer WHEN it procs, because they just move away from the hook. This means that they can camp a bit in that 16 meter range and the survivors let go of the gens expecting the combo, but that's actually the opposite of what they want to be doing in a camping scenario.
Because the combo itself has counterplay that isn't even a perk and just gameplay, and the fact that the combo itself isn't that strong and takes 2 perk slots, i would propose the following change to Grim Embrace:
Your act of servitude to The Entity has not gone unnoticed.
Each time a Survivor is hooked for the first time, Grim Embrace gains +1 Token and activates once you are at least 16 metres away from the Hook, or 10 seconds after hooking a survivor.
- 1-3 Tokens: Blocks all Generators for 8/10/12 seconds.
- 4 tokens: Blocks all Generators for 40 seconds and the aura of the Obsession is revealed to you for 6 seconds.
This means that the killer can't "hold" the Grim embrace to camp and keep survivors off the gens through this mindgame that promotes and strengthens camping. With this, they can keep the interaction between the 2 perks since it isn't that strong to begin with.
Additionally, i have found that survivors after just a few games are already adapting, and similar to the old Pain res + DMS combo where they let go of the gen just before the hook happened, they are letting go of the gen a couple seconds after a hook, meaning the DMS never ends up proccing.
Just to clarify whether or not I'm being dumb... you meant "they are letting go before the hook meaning DMS never procs".
Surely if they let go after the hook, the gen would be blocked by DMS? They need to let go before the hook and wait, which then feeds into your next point.
A simpler fix might be to change the range to somewhere in the region of 8~12m. That way if the killer camps they've got to sit in faster AFC charge range.
There is also an argument to just have it proc immediately... I assume the 16m range was to encourage the killer not to camp and leave the target hook to proc it, but this is already dealt with by the AFC, and can of course be ignored to have the killer come back... so if that isn't what it's for, I'm not sure really what the 16m trigger is trying to accomplish.
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@radiantHero23 said:
I hate to repeat myself. But this could have been prevented easily.
She was good on Ptb. If they just pushed her live with no changes whatsoever, she would have been flawed but acceptable. The nerfs just make her unsalvagable. I played 6 games yesterday. I won 2 of them. It was by old build with ring drawing and videotape copy.
If the survivor team has any awareness, her power just crumbles. It's so sad to see.
I really tried to make her work but her power limit with all these nerfs is incredibly low. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to play her. She's just too weak. That's what it boils down to.
She's still very oppressive on Gideon meat plant though because the map is horribly designed (another aspect I wrote about on the Ptb feedback). I guess if you want to win at all costs, send yourself there.
One thing that has definitely returned from old Sadako. She's a complete sweat fest if you want to do well against people that are aware. You have to outperform by a mile to have basic results.
Please BHVR give her the adjustments that she needs.
No cooldown
No limit on locked in stacks
2 second tape insertion
No TV auras shown
This has to happen ASAP!
Honestly those 4 changes + half stacks for survivors on different elevations (similar to how AFC works) and she's pretty much there.
Some add-on tweaks would be nice too, as some are still much more required than others, but at least at base she'd be decent regardless.
Viable, not oppressive, and most importantly, fun for people playing her, and I'd say outside of being completely ignorant of how she works, fun to face too.
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The craziest thing I saw in my first game against him in MacMillan, was I watched him chase a survivor left in the distance ahead of me and disappear behind the wall.
I sat repairing my gen happily, and 10 seconds later I heard his TR heading my way... he was coming not only from my right... but also behind me...
How!? How the hell does he get there without me seeing him...!?!?!?
I was running Deadline at the time, so I can only conclude he ran by in the distance with Overdrive while I was tunnelvisioned on a madness skillcheck... but it really messed me up... I genuinely jumped outta my skin when I saw him and his red light lumbering towards me xD
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Literally the first 5 games I played had a total of 12 Alan's in it (me being 1 of them). I think he's doing fine 😏
A lot of the complaints remind me of Chucky when he came out. "It's not a license I know anything about, so this DLC is worthless"... that's fine, nothing wrong with not having interest in the license if you don't know the license...
However the insinuation that the DLC is bad because of that, and the perks not being great is not really smart. You should want a DLC for the characters, and pay little mind to the perks. Perks are subject to changes, we all know this. If you're buying a chapter just because the perks are strong, you're likely making a big mistake, as there is a decent chance they get nerfed, and when they do, the people who have done this get very vocal (eh... Gabriel, Mikaela, Laurie, Sadako).
Similarly if you're ignoring the chapter and dont get them on sales because the perks are weak, you're also setting yourself up for a fall (eh... Ash, Ghost Face).
End of the day, your money to do with what you want, but I'd heavily discourage anyone buying a chapter just for the perks.
I don't know the Alan Wake series myself beyond name, but I bought the DLC because I like experimenting with perk builds, whichb s contrary to my point, but I also got it because I enjoy going for trophies, and most importantly I like to support developers of games I enjoy by paying for their content.
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Hahahaha, yes it is a nice change, and makes Quick gambit not a bad little perk at all. Great for anyone who wants to take chase instead of working on gens, pretty good for breaking 3 gens, and exceptional on small/2 tiered maps/maps with a strong central structure.
Deja Vu is talked about as being a little OP with its permanent free 6%... yet apparently some people are so greedy with their requests for buffs that 8% to likely 1, maybe 2 and possibly even 3 teammates at the same time isn't good enough... cause if it isn't so busted it redefines the meta, its trash 😏
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@CountOfTheFog said:
I thought Sadako was returning to how she was upon release? Is this a brand new rework altogether?
Not quite. They look similar but their effects were quite different.
Old Sadako's main issue was survivors just ignored her TVs, because it cost Sadako more to use it herself. She needed to predict and push survivors into TVs to build condemn on the TV she ported to, but a good player could make it work with the right add-ons, and there was one iri add-on that turned her TVs back on when she caught a survivor. This allowed her actually be reasonably potent and generate decent pressure consistently, though she did tend to have to slug a lot.
The PTB version had some things massively improved like the teleport CD sas now in Sadakos favour, and Sadako could now generate Condemn to all TVs that were powered. She could also lock in condemn, which had a lot of potential to really bother survivors, meaning survivors couldn't just ignore her tapes anymore, they had to grab a tape and do her side quest once they started building condemn. However to compensate, she lost the passive corruption from tapes, and survivors had much better warning about being in range of TVs so couldn't be pushed into and condemned so easily.
PTB Sadako was still an upgrade from old Sadako though, her power now actually had the slowdown she needed to work as a stealth killer, afforded the time she needs to commit to chasing survivors down and apply pressure... but now they nerfed the condemn lock in and the condemn spread, she is now actually worse than before. She can't push people into condemn stacks as readily as she did before, survivors can grab tapes for free shutting down her teleport (which they could in PTB), but even when they don't, or their TVs come back on, they still aren't really penalised, because she can'tquickly build up condemn. Then ofc she doesn't even have her iri add-on to allow her to quickly turn on TVs and build up condemn pressure on someone anymore to account for it.
I don't think she was perfect in the PTB, but she had the potential to be a decent killer. Not particularly strong, but at least unique, threatening and fun for those so inclined.
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I don't have a definite answer with a source I can cite, but based on my own experience, I would guess it's high. PS5 is pretty crisp, and runs at a smooth 60FPS, but you obviously can't tweak anything to your preferences. On a high end PC you definitely have even sharper edges and obviously as much FPS as your system allows, and can tweak settings to your personal taste.
So as much I like this game on console, if you have the option to play it on a high end gaming rig, I'd recommend PC.
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@GeneralV said:
Greetings, survivors, killers, and both-siders of the Fog! I hope this thread finds you doing well. Thanks for joining me today.
So, Freddy Krueger is currently trending around here. Unfortunately, it is not for a good reason. This poor killer, my favorite character in the game, is completely ruined. And this situation cannot be tolerated.
It is with that in mind that I would like to present you, once again, my idea for what should be done with this character. I have been a Freddy main since 2018 and would be honored to have a shot at fixing this killer that I truly love.
Without further ado, here it is:
Power: Dream Demon
Pull survivors into the Dream World
-Survivors who are awake do not see The Nightmare.
-Once targeted by The Nightmare’s power, survivors enter the Dream Transition for 7 seconds.
-During the Dream Transition Survivors can see The Nightmare intermittently and they suffer from the Incapacitated status effect.
-When the Dream Transition Lapse, the Survivor is pulled into the Dream World.
Once in the Dream World:
-Survivor’s auras are revealed to The Nightmare when they are outside of his terror radius.
-Survivors suffer an action speed penalty of 50%.
-To exit the Dream World, Survivors can find non-sleeping Survivors to perform a wake up action.
-Failed Skill Checks can also wake up.
-Hooked Survivors wake up.
Special Ability: Dream Projection
-Teleport to a Generator in view. Releasing the button early will cancel the action.
-Survivors cannot interact with the targeted Generator.
“You have nothing to worry about. This won’t hurt one… little… bit.” -Freddy Krueger
Add-ons:
Wool Shirt:
-Slightly decreases Skill Check chances in the Dream World.
Sheep Block:
Slightly reduces Dream Transition time.
-Time to fall asleep is reduced by 0.5 seconds.
Kid’s Drawing:
Slightly increases Dream Demon range.
Garden Rake:
Slightly increases Movement speed while casting Dream Demon.
Prototype Claws:
Moderately increases Movement speed while casting Dream Demon.
Outdoor Rope:
While Survivors are in the Dream World:
Applies a moderate (-6%) Action Speed penalty to Repair, Healing, and Sabotage actions.
Nancy’s Sketch:
Moderately increases Dream Demon range
Green Dress:
Considerably decreases Skill Check chances in the Dream World.
Slightly increases Dream Projection charge time.
Cat Block:
Moderately reduces Dream Transition time.
-Time to fall asleep is reduced by 1 second.
Unicorn Block:
Considerably reduces Dream Transition time.
-Time to fall asleep is reduced by 1.5 seconds.
Swing Chains:
Survivors suffer from an increased Action Speed penalty of 60% after 30 seconds in the Dream World
Survivors only see glimpses of The Nightmare during the Dream Transition.
Nancy’s Masterpiece:
Tremendously increases Dream Demon range.
Jump Rope:
Tremendously decreases Survivors' Action speed when in the Dream World.
Blue Dress:
Moderately decreases Skill Check chances in the Dream World.
Moderately reduces Dream Projection charge time.
“I had to keep you awake long enough so when you finally slept… you would never wake up again” -Freddy Krueger
Pill Bottle:
Survivors do not see The Nightmare during the Dream Transition.
Paint Thinner:
Tremendously increases Movement speed while casting Dream Demon.
Class Photo:
-When a Survivor is pulled into the Dream Transition, all other Survivors' Auras are revealed to The Nightmare for the duration of the Dream Transition.
-Tremendously increases Dream Transition time.
Time to fall asleep is increased by 2 seconds.
“Z” Block:
Tremendously reduces Dream Transition time.
-Time to fall asleep reduced by 2 seconds.
Red Paint Brush:
-Tremendously decreases The Nightmare's Terror Radius.
-Tremendously reduces Dream Transition time.
Time to fall asleep is reduced by 2 seconds.
-Slightly reduces The Nightmare's Movement speed.
“Don’t be afraid. I can make it the way it was... Just the way you liked it” -Freddy Krueger
Black Box:
When channelling Dream Projection, the following effects apply:
-All Generators spew blood.
-Suppresses the appearance of the Husk.
“I can sleep… I just don’t want to” -Dean Russell
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OLG5TS2NT32U/image.png
And here it is! I hope you like what you see, and feel free to share your own thoughts and ideas here. We'll all work together to get our killer back!
-Signed by GeneralV, undisputed master of the Old DBD, and the most dedicated Old Freddy main in history.
Always good to read your posts friend!
Old Freddy seems like a good direction to head, however with this iteration of Freddy his power is pretty similar to PTB Sadako, with immense slowdown, a weak stealth (by virtue of being unable to attack) and a teleport to gens... with this in mind there are a few things I'm not so keen on that I'd like to feedback/share thoughts on.
Failed Skill Checks can also wake up.
I really don't conceptually like failed Skill Checks waking survivors up. It's RNG reliant, and I really don't care for the ping ponging in and out of the dream state.
I can see that players will carry a medkit (they are still the best item for survivors in the game), throw pallets and sit trying to get skill checks for self healing and spamming for a miss (like people did when everyone ran self-care)(P.S. Franklin's Value?). It also means if everyone is asleep, and you don't have a medkit or aren't injured, your only escape is deliberately reverting progress on healing other survivors or break gens, which given the huge 50% repair speed reduction, you must do. Again you're sat spamming the skillcheck button waiting for RNG to grant you one that you might not even get.
While I don't like the clocks for the almost painful lack of originality, having to race to a location to get out of the dream with Freddy in pursuit fits more thematically to me, especially with regards to thoughts I have about teleporting. Instead of clocks, I would have the survivor have to burn thier hand on one of Freddy's pipes or take a steam jet to the face or something that would hurt in order to wake up.
Once targeted by The Nightmare’s power, survivors enter the Dream Transition for 7 seconds, during the Dream Transition Survivors can see The Nightmare intermittently and they suffer from the Incapacitated status effect.
The incapacitated effect is a great touch here, stops survivors doing things in Freddy's face with him being helpless. One thing that strikes me about Old Freddy though is the way you wander around spamming your dream world yoink on survivors to pull them into the dream once you're in range. Once you have that Transition it's all about trying yo keep people in the dream as mich as possible.
The fire and forget style of this power doesn't seem very interactive to me, and in conjunction with the Incapacitated effect it seems like it'd be quite frustrating to face (especially in conjunction with my skill check escape removal suggestion above).
I think a more interesting method might be something like:
- Have 21s transition that is fire and forget, that inflicts half the repair penalty on generators for the duration of the transition.
- Have Freddy channel on a specific survivor to increase the Transition rate by a factor of 3 to take 7s (from maximum) and apply Incapacitated.
This would mean that Freddy can target a survivor to incapacitate, still put pressure on others as he goes but can't just constantly spam Incapacitate at will. With multiple survivors swarming at gates for example you can incapacitate the one opening the gate, and then they have to move to let another survivor in. Perhaps transitioning survivors gain collision with Freddy, and if he plays it smart he may be able to body block at gate, which gives him the unique property to block off a gate rush after an unhook.
Special Ability: Dream Projection. Teleport to a Generator in view. Releasing the button early will cancel the action. Survivors cannot interact with the targeted Generator.
This is the major talking point and I think it's great to keep this is his kit. One thing that is irksome about this addition though is as gens get completed, he loses the power to teleport. This might be fine mind you, since ofc the rest of his power is there to slow down all actions, healing and otherwise, especially as he now can block the generator being repaired with his TP... so perhaps that is sufficient trade off where as the trial goes on, he gets weaker?
That being said, how does blocking generators interact with the black box? If you don't get blocked but the gen spews blood, you know he isn't coming, if you do get blocked, you know he is, so the surprise doens't work... I'd prefer the abvlity to teleport to gens regardless of whether they are powered or not? Or would that be too oppressive in the end game?
Me being silly:
I'm going off the rails with something mad cap now that I'll just brain dump... since his TP has a pretty long cooldown, perhaps allowing Freddy to teleport to other things as well, that are near a survivor in the dream (since he has their aura anyway). Like pallets that haven't been thrown, hooks that don't have a survivor on them. Pretending to be a hanging survivor then unhooking himself, or leaning against a pallet the survivor is running to is something I can really see Freddy doing... and it gives him to power to do some mind games at loops. He probably need other things toning down to compensate, but it would be pretty interesting.
Anyway, outside of my BS, it sounds cool regardless! GL getting Freddy back :D
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Ahahaha, the judgement xD
Since there have been a few Pig builds, I will instead put up my "Always There" Dredge build:
- Make Your Choice
- Friends 'Til The End
- Lethal Pursuer
- Hex: Plaything
- Boat Key
- Lavalier Microphone
The idea is to use the threat of Hex: Pentimento to keep everyone Oblivious with Plaything, and use the 2 purple add-ons to have the Dredge function similar during the Day as he does at Night, with faster TPs from Boat Key, and the 5s auras from Lavalier Microphone + Lethal Pursuer to replace Killer Instinct. As a bonus it also opens lockers to spook survivor whenever you port around.
Friends 'Til The End and Make Your Choice give you a lot of potency to chase people down with exposed, and your TPs ensure you can get to them and see their aura/killer instinct. Have fun 😁🤘
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@Caiman said:
I can't aim her blood vomit worth a damn on console so I tend to just go for M1s against Broken survivors.
What's to aim? Unless the survivor is hugging terrain, you just draw circles in the sky 😅
In seriousness it's a mix for me on console. Once most of the team is infected, if its convenient for me to do so, I'll grab the Vile Purge. The faster wind up add-on is really good for dealing with console short comings at tight loops 😏
... though sometimes I get very frustrated when I respect a pallet, only for my baby toe to get the shadow of the pallet on it and stun me out of my power... been more than one where I'm a country mile away... 😑😑😑
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I always figured the Plague was the character to represent this kind of resurrected being from a lost ancient society trope.
For funsies I've been trying to come up with a suggestion that fits a horror trope that isn't a rip off of an existing idea, is original but catches the same theme...
It's actually harder than one would think 🤔
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Unfortuantely for SoloQ to get buffed to remove this problem, you would have to make the hard decision to change DBD to a competitive game and make Survivors truly a team.
As it stands, even semi-competant SWFs can absolutely run rings around every killer bar maybe the top 5 of the roster (top 10 if we're generous). When I'm in a SWF, the gen progress is really consistent and fast... it's rare I see a 50s chase not lead to at least 50% progress on a couple of gens, and the amount of times I see stronger killers goes up substantially compared to the weaker killers. This means that in majority of cases, survivor side is at base stronger than killer side... if you try to buff survivor side to help soloQ, you further widen the gulf between SWFs and most of the killer cast.
SoloQ doesn't play with anywhere near the same level of teamwork as SWF, through no fault of their own as the mechanisms to do so aren't there, but unless you're going to add full comms to the game, grant full view of perks in lobbies and basically push the game to be entirely about hook stages instead of kills (like it is in comp), you're gonna struggle to bring SoloQ up without also pushing SWFs up even further up than they already are.
Now you might think that is a good idea, but I hasten to add, if you make it like comp, then you have to accept that all the sweatiest and nastiest strategies need to be made viable again. AFC needs to me removed, basekit BT need to be removed. Perks can only be limited to one per player to prevent stacking Adrenaline/Decisive Strike etc. All of this naturally means that face camping, tunneling, slugging, and all the harshest methods of play are back on the table for killers, because you cannot have mechanisms preventing the killer from gaining pressure to compensate for the big advantage that comms brings to a team.
This isn't my opinion, these are the opinions I've heard from some of the best pro players in the game. So think very carefully how you want the game to be... because if it ain't comp that you want, be very careful what you ask for.
EDIT: Personally I rather enjoy the SoloQ experience. I enjoy the immersion and challenge of playing as someone trying to survive on their own, with the potetnial dynamic of other survivors not helping me/having their own plan. I personally don't like the idea of comp play at all.
If it were up to me, I wouldn't even allow SWFs outside of custom games... maybe duos at most, as I personally see Solo as how the game is meant to be played... but death of the game, etc, etc.
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@Sava18 said:
That's not a real penalty, that's looking down at your phone for a min and playing again.
The dc penalty is already lax.
This.
On the scale of DC penalties, DBD is surprisingly lenient. On other games that are dependant on full lobbies to play, they are very harsh on afk/leavers.
Honestly the fact BHVR doesn't attempt to limit suicide on hook players at all is something that blew my mind... most game devs would be even harsher on people trying to circumvent the ban system.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637312#Comment_3637312
My issue with the perks is the amount of power they give the killer when their conditions are met. I know they are conditional, but the point I am making is the amount of power they grant the killer is way too much. This is why people complained about NOED so much and why they made changes to it. Survivors were sick of losing to a killer who gained insane power once the exit gates were powered all because a dull totem was left uncleansed. Survivors recognize situations where the killer's power difference jumps too far and makes the game feel entirely in the killer's favor.
Survivors have nothing on the same level as this. The perks we do have that could give us somewhat of an advantage are insanely conditional like Soul Guard. I tried using that perk for a few days and never once was able to get any use out of it. Why don't survivors have a perk that gives them the ability to block something accessible to the killer for a duration once their objective conditions are met? You could argue it would be too much power, but that is the same argument I'm making for these perks. The whole situation is not balanced. There are too many God tier killer perks and loadouts in this game that completely demoralize survivors. The only chance you have against many of them is a well coordinated and experienced SWF team. That is why so many people prefer SWF too. Solo que is far too risky to deal with these situations.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637328#Comment_3637328
Hook sabo doesn't offer the same level of power as Remember Me and NWO. It also does nothing for the last survivor especially against these 2 perks.
OK fair enough if you think they are too strong, but I would argue as a player who plays both sides and has been in the receiving end of both, if NWO and RM are too powerful, then Adrenaline and Hope are too powerful as well.
I've been able to play around NWO and RM well enough in my games. It's rare I've seen a game where NWO and RM specifically were the cause of beating me, instead of it being the result of already being in a losing the game. Similarly it's rarely been the cause of a winning game suddenly turning into a loss. The games I've been winning we were so far ahead that the perks weren't even a factor (due to the need to charge them up).
In the same way, as killer, Adrenaline and Hope have made an already losing situation even worse, but it is rare I have been able to point specifically to Adrenaline and Hope being the cause of my loss. Similarly they have rarely been the cause of a winning game becoming a loss, because usually I got a strong upper hand befire Adrenaline and Hope even became a factor.
You say the survivor perks aren't as impactful, but any strong survivor perk can be taken by all members of the survivor team. This means of course on a 1 to 1 level, survivors can't have perks with equivalent level of power as the killer perks, because there is 1 killer and 4 survivors. If all survivors can take a perk at killer strength, it's value is 4 times that of the killer perks. This is why perks like Decisive and DH were too strong. But this game isn't a 1vs1, it's a 4vs1, and 16 perks vs. 4.
I'm sure you can understand that 4 survivors all gaining a health state at end game and running away at 150% for 5 seconds is not small potatoes, it can completely erase whatever pressure the killers has in an instant, and basically near guarantee a 4 man out in that situation. Not differentat all to No Way Out and Remember Me helping the killer have a strong chance of securing an extra kill, maybe 2.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637099#Comment_3637099
You want to know the difference between Adrenaline/Hope compared to Remember Me and NWO? You still die with Adrenaline/Hope if the killer is using those 2 perks. These arguments are without substance. I look at the situation and see that the reward the killer gets for using even 1 of these perks let alone both far outweighs anything survivors gain in the end game. Killers are given insane power buffs that do not feel like they are benefitting from a perk but rather given insane favor in the most critical part of the game. The only way to counter these 2 perks is to have more than 1 survivor alive when they activate and even still there are risks.
You want substance?
Neither NWO or RM are granted guaranteed. The killer needs to hook each survivor once, and needs to injure the obsession 4 times. They do this while basically not having 2 perk slots. No stacking gen regression, no combined info perks, no strong anti healing combos, you only have 2 slots for the rest of the trial. The killer is on a pretty harsh time limit to get both perks stacked up if the survivors are playing well.
Your contention that you're guaranteed to die is completely incorrect. That statement is an argument without substance. The killer can't tunnel you out if they want NWO and RM value, they have to spread hooks while also ensuring they kill the obsession. This can be denied by stealthy play, especially as far the obsession is concerned.
As long as you still have teammates alive and a hook state to hand (which you should vs. a killer missing 2 perks) your Hope and Adrenaline buys you at least 25 seconds even if you're bad at looping vs. majority of the roster, and 45 seconds to 1 minute if you're decent at looping, 10 seconds to get hooked, and your hook state buys you another 45 seconds before it comes to the crunch of being unhooked in time. The absolute maximum of the NWO and RM combo is 104 seconds. The math is not in favour of this combo being overpowered.
Yeah if you're in the 1vs1 you will likely lose here, but you and your team got smashed by a killer who is down 2 perks. If you don't get hatch, then at that point, you should lose unless you can find a key.
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If the speed boost can't be given aniamtion, I still think that her speed boost should at least be the direct result of the survivor she is chasing.
The fact some mook not paying attention can get scanned across the map and it is me who is punished while she is chasing me is quite annoying. Players who actually are managing to outplay/avoid her scans shouldn't be caught out by one of their amoeba teammates face checking a beam.
I'd prefer her speed be standardised to: -
- 3% while chasing a scanned survivor.
- 5% while chasing a claw trapped survivor.
This is ofc a buff to claw traps, so I'd like the hindered effect removed when scanned again though, a 15% speed swing is a death sentence... but the claw traps need an effect when scanned... you already got a health state and a 5% speed boost, so I liked the idea of a Doctor shock. Since we don't wanna poach Doc's thing though (I know @VomitMommy was quite vocal about this), I'd make it so that it only affects pallet drops, as the claw trap is on the survivors arm. Skull Merchant could get 2.5s pallet drop suppression, which harkens back to her old claw traps breaking pallets automatically, and would mean that pre-dropping against her is still effective.
Between the free health state, the speed boost, the perfect info when mind gaming, and the potential to force a pallet early/prevent a pallet drop, the ability to go undetectable and suppress her red light as she sets up a drone, she has some good tools, but a survivor can still outplay her by paying attention and hitting a well timed vault.
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@Seraphor said:
Since I feel that most people tend to main one side or the other
They shouldn't, and that's the point of daily rituals, to encourage players to use all options.
The worst people in this fanbase are almost always the "mains". Who seem to believe the other side are less than human and are convinced the game is "sided" against them.
Personally I would just increase the rewards for doing them, providing they remain restricted to encourage playing both sides.
I agree with that notion of encouraging people to play both, though I do feel like both points above achieve that goal.
I know I myself play both sides, but I had a stint where I could only play survivor for a couple of months, and I got mostly killer rituals... I've since been able to play both again, and been on a bit of a killer binge for the past months (trying to catch my killers up to my survivors)... but for some reason I'm still constantly being given Killer rituals. I don't care cause I play both, but I was expecting the rituals to flip... but it never has...
Having 2 separate tracks means you will always have rituals to do on either side, if you only play one, you only get back 1 ritual per day, whereas the other side will have 3, at all times. You boost that to have greater rewards, that's free money you're turning down by not doing them, and they sit winking in the face the whole time... especially if they get the double reward amounts. 60k bloodpoints for example is a pretty hefty incentive, especially for a new player. Put 100 iri shards on that, and I'd do them every time... hell even 50, I'd do them evne if I cba.
So I would think the suggestion in the OP would achieve the goal nicely.
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@th3syst3m said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636535#Comment_3636535
Yeah we're talking about overall balance. MMR is garbage, solo q exists, far more survivors don't work the objective compared to killers, there are other strong killers other than Nurse and Blight. Playing a weak killer and saying the game is survivor sided is like running no mither in solo q and saying the game is killer sided.
So by that logic: -
- The game is killer sided when playing strong killers, and survivor sided when playing weak killers?
- The game is survivor sided when survivors work together and organise themselves in SWFs for the objective, and killer sided when survivors are in SoloQ and not working together?
- By extension this would mean an middle of the road killer and a modestly competent pair of independent duos is a balanced game?
This would explain why high level survivors and organised SWFs tend to go up against Nurse/Blight, and low level soloQ survivors tend to go against Trapper/Myers.
This means if we're taking overall balance, the game is pretty balanced and neither sided...
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Others have already nailed it, but the other side of the same coin is Adrenaline and Hope, and unlike Killers who only have their perks to play with, survivors can take any mix of perks across the whole team and use their power accordingly. A killer with NWO and RM still has to contend with individual survivors who take gen rush, take meta exhaustion perks, take FTP+Buckle Up, etc, etc, whereas survivors can split their risk across the team.
It's not fun for killers to have 2 or 3 players suddenly pop a health and exhaustion state when the final generator gets popped either, it feels awful, but in order to have that, the whole team of Survivors have had to play the rest of the trial without a perk. What will usually happen instead is the players with Adrenaline/Hope will actively seek the killers attention to buy the time required for their team, and if you fail to identify/ignore the survivor who wants you to chase them, you're quite likely to eat it.
The feeling of No Way Out/Remember Me proccing is the same feeling as Adrenaline/Hope proccing on half the team, but for the killer is was a signficantly higher risk/investment to go for it comparatively.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636564#Comment_3636564
And greater than 50/50 is fair for the survivor? There's a reason why Dredge and Artist are considered boring. It's because if you stay at the loop you're guaranteed to get hit. 50/50's are how this game works, how every non-antiloop killer plays a mindgame at a non-pallet loop. Pig gets a similar mechanic she can play at pallets too.
Every failed 50/50 with pig might be extra seconds, but it's the same extra seconds it would take anyway if you didn't use your power, circling that loop over and over, eating the pallet, and moving on. The 50/50 is a bonus 50% chance to cut the chase short.
You're talking about 'trash' killers but there isn't a single killer with a poor kill rate...
I mean, I was operating on the idea that no... a continuous chain of 50/50s is not fair on the killer, considering the Killer has to win multiple times in a pretty short time frame to exert solid pressure. It only takes maybe 2 or 3 lost exchanges and the killer starts to fall quite far behind.
I would hardly say that Wesker, basekit Blight or Huntress hatchets at loops are 50/50s... yet they are lorded as some of the best designed killers in the game. Despite it not being a 50/50, they are liked, so my conclusion is the limiting factor is skill.
So I was merely exploring the idea that a lot of the more disliked killers were not 50/50 either, but disliked because the skill required was much lower.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636454#Comment_3636454
It's also severely underrated. I score ambush hits at loops all the time. It's usually a 50/50 but that's better than a guaranteed no hit and eating a pallet anyway.
Just kinda thinking out loud and brain dumping...
Reading this I kind realise why the "unfair" anti loop killers exist. Doesn't your point here kinda highlight the issue that 50/50s are bad for the killer?
Like how many attempts do you get back to back between running to each loop for your attempts? Every failed 50/50 is another at 10 seconds at least you have to chase to get another shot. If you take more than 45s in chase, you're now in a severe time problem, and you only need to fail a 50/50 3 times to be in the problem.
The high skill anti loops killers have a much better than 50/50 chance, but, their execution has to be on point. That's the trade off...
So if you make a killer with a less skill dependant power... how do you make it at all viable without making the killer garbage?
E.g. How would you make Artist more skill dependent instead of being able to close off loops by just plonking a crow there? The fact she can't pull up and throw quickly like Huntress, and she can't immediately wound at range is what makes her different and weaker... but tbe fact she can lock a loop is the compensation.
You could make her so that she MUST swarm survivors first (have 1 good hit with the cooldown low enough to get more crows up) and the follow up with the shotgun afterwards... but she's be a pretty trash killer doing that.
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People said they preferred faster lobbies over more accurate MMR... I'm not sure why any of this is a surprise tbh.
I keep getting this constant problem where everyone runs adrenaline and chase builds, or is running a rat build, and literally no-one takes healing or gen builds. It's not even a healthy mix of perks most of the time. It also doesnt help they're bloody allergic to generators, they sprint to and yolo unhook constantly and are totally incapable of reading the HUD.
Like I'd never run We'll Make It and Deliverance, because that basically forces you to be the one to unhook, and I guarantee you will be the only one with those types of perks... and you'll be the only one who sticks gens when someone gets hooked. The fact Deli is not active, speaks volumes to me.
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@Shroompy said:
Id be so down as long as we get the signature lines:
Shaggy: Zoinks!
Scooby: Ruh Roh!
Velma: Jinkies!
Daphne: Jeepers!
Fred: #########!
I replayed that meme in my head reading that post, so thanks for that xD
Personally the roster that makes the most sense to me:
Fred - Felix is a dead ringer. Tall and atheltic build, and ofc blonde with that jock jaw line. Also this lore entry works too well: "Felix didn't mingle well with the other teenagers, but he did make four friends who like himself didn't quite fit the 'high-society' mould. They were often ridiculed by other teens and disparagingly called 'The Pariahs', a name they liked and gladly adopted. Instead of practising public speaking and engaging in endless debates, The Pariahs spent most of their time exploring the ruins and mysteries of the island until one of their adventures took a turn for the worse."
Daphne - Daphne is really slim and petite and Kate has that country girl figure that doesnt give me a Daphne vibe... Yui might be a good shout, as Daphne is supposed to be a fighter and know martial arts, but Yun Jin also might be on point give the fashion side of things.
Velma - While very different in looks... I struggle to think of a character more appropriate than Mikaela for Velma... her love of the supernatural and her reading books just fits. Young Haddie may also be a shout.
Shaggy - I struggle to think of anyone that fits Shaggy better than Renato actually. Tall and slim, socially awkward, doesn't like to draw attention to himself.
Scooby - Has to be Dwight in a onesie surely. Dwight isn't the bravest character, his nervousness is absolutely on point for Scooby 😅
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635543#Comment_3635543
"I realise this is kinda arguing semantics, but the point I'm consistently trying to get across here is the grade system isn't just a time spent farm. The grade system is a challenge, and challenge you can fail."
That's my whole argument. I don't see it as a challenge if you have the time. When I wasn't working I could play 6 or so hours a day and get to Iri 1 just fine. Now I just don't have the time so I'm often lucky If I get above Gold. I don't think it's because my skill level has dropped. I agree if I play less I shouldn't get as high but it adds insult to injury when I'm one pip away from the next level only to lose it to bad games and I'm all out of time to even attempt that clime back up.
"Imagine a platform game where in order to progress through a stage you only had to make a jump one time, and for every jump you made, your progress is immediate saved as a checkpoint. Kirby on the Wii basically did this, and it's not well thought of game, because you basically can't fail. Whereas previous installments of the game sends you back if you fail, and is much highly regarded, cause succeeding means something."
Well, this is a matter of opinion. There are people out there who would find it just as satisfying. Though DBD is different because there are a lot of influences outside of your control. A single player platform game doesn't have a lot of that.
As much as I hate this saying I think we just have to agree to disagree. I just don't see any compelling reason why it's important for the game's health to keep de-pipping in and you feel differently.
Ok, well it's not a part of the game I am passionate about, and I have no intention of being a jerk about it, that is not my goal at all, so I will drop it after this post and accept agreeing to disagree... but you do realise the contradiction in what you're saying? How can you say it's not a challenge, and in the same paragraph say that your skill hasn't dropped (implying it takes skill to climb), but it's a slap in the face whenever you lose a pip (implying you lost, and thus your progression towards completion went backwards)?
Surely the challenge is, in each tier of each grade, you have to consistently score highly in games enough times to earn enough pips to rank up to the next grade, if you don't score highly, you risk losing progress to your next grade. You have until the 13th of each month to succeed enough times to get to iri 1, and if not that, as high a rank as you can get. If you play less games, you have less chances... but either way you still need to be scoring higher scores in your games more often than you don't, implying you are performing consistently well vs. the players that are around your MMR (assuming MMR works).
You say it's not a challenge, despite the fact there are scenarios that you highlight as making it very hard for you to score highly. How is that not a challenge? It might be a crap challenge, it might be cheap and unfair, and those are perfectly fine things to complain about... but the fact you can lose progress, the fact you can fail to advance your rank and you have a time limit to complete it, must make it a challenge by definition, surely?
I completely understand the arguments put forward here, you can get tunneled, you can go up against Tombstone Myers, you can have games that are just bad luck or where the killer fails to exert anywhere near enough pressure and you just don't get any good opportunites to score. I've highlighted myself you can "win" and still depip, which is ridiculous. These are beyond your control and genuine complaints you can have about how pips are granted...
What I'm trying to get across is you are trying to solve the annoyance of these things that cause you to de-pip, by removing the chance of de-pipping, instead of solving the unfairness of these problems. This is known as a side effect solution, you aren't addressing the actual problem, you are bypassing the problem by removing something that itself, is not a problem. Like if I play absolutely terribly, lose all my chases instantly, do not heal or save a single person, do not progress gens, do not stun or blind killer at any point, and end up getting sacrificed without even getting 1000 points in any category, shouldn't I de-pip? Logically I should... because I played really badly... thus my progress to ranking up should logically go backwards...
It's like I'm not saying anything controversial here... if you can't lose, you don't have a game. I'm not defending grades and de-pipping, you're free to argue that grades shouldn't be a part of the game, you don't want to depip, and players should just be rewarded for playing each season. Thats not an unreasonable suggestion given the problems of how you can de-pip. In fact, a pretty strong argument is to say that the grade system is something that takes more time than skill, considering your that your skill is theoretically on the same level as your opponents, which makes your winning chances a complete crap shoot, but because your lower bound is -1, and your upper bound is +2, eventually you will get there with enough games (it would be worth pointing out the point of thie grade system is to keep your playing more often, but this has gone on long enough).
However if the goal is to "improve" the grade system, removing de-pips doesn't improve the grade system, it makes it redundant and pointless to the point yeah, it should just be removed entirely. The only counter anyone has given me thus far, is de-pipping feels horrible, and is unfair a lot of the time.... but that isn't a problem of de-pipping, that is a problem of those gameplay elements being unfair within the grading system. Why would pipping ever matter, if it can't lose progress? Why even pip at all?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635453#Comment_3635453
"but if you're gonna remove de-pips, might as well remove the whole thing. There is no incentive to climb up the ladder other than blood points. There is no reason to have checkpoints or stages, because the grade doesn't mean anything, as there is no possibility of losing. "
As it stands there is no incentive other than blood points. At the end the month if you're on Ash IV or Iri 1 all you get is BPs and nothing else. Grades don't mean anything besides to give you more BP. I fail to see why there would be no incentive. The incentive is still there if you want to get to Iri 1 for more BPs.
I mean yes, that's the only material incentive, but the other incentive is succeeding in climbing the ladder. It's not guaranteed, and as established not an easy thing to do, succeeding at completing the challenge in of itself is an incentive.
I realise this is might aound like arguing semantics, and ultimately its not really an important enough part the game to argue about vehermently... but the point I'm consistently trying to get across here is the grade system isn't just a time spent farm. The grade system is a challenge, and a challenge you can fail.
Imagine a platform game where in order to progress through a stage you only had to make a jump one time, and for every jump you made, your progress is immediate saved as a checkpoint. Kirby on the Wii basically did this, and it's not well thought of as a game, because you basically can't fail. You put in enough time you're guaranteed to get there eventually. Whereas previous installments of the Kirby games send you back to a specific checkpoint if you fail, and is much more highly regarded, cause succeeding actually means something.
Now if you want to say, I just want my bloodpoints, I don't want to be challenged and completing a run through the grading system doesn't matter to me, then fair enough. That's not an invalid point to make. However my argument is if you're gonna remove the challenge of the grading system, by virtue of the fact you can't lose pips, there's no point having it. You might as well remove it completely and just grant more points in general.
Why need to charge up your rank through the levels, if there is no possibility of regression? Might as well just give the points out immediately and cut out the middle man.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635441#Comment_3635441
I don't think de-pipping is the solution to all the flaws and shortcomings of the Emblem system. There's plenty of conversation to be had about that. I just want it removed because it's the most overtly frustrating flaw of the system. Even if we reworked it, DbD will still be a game where you can be hooked first and hardcore camped and tunneled until you are dead. Or left to die on hook by teammates who don't bother saving you. Or stabbed to death in the first 3 minutes by a Tombstone Myers. Having the game penalize me after experiencing something like that is needlessly aggravating to my player experience. Not pipping is one thing, but having pips from previous games taken away from me after a bad match is adding insult to injury.
It just sucks, and I can't think of any reason for it to stay.
Yeah, I agree it sucks. Mikey especially is brutal... but if you're gonna remove de-pips, might as well remove the whole thing. There is no incentive to climb up the ladder other than blood points. There is no reason to have checkpoints or stages, because the grade doesn't mean anything, as there is no possibility of losing.
It may as well just be a blood point tally, like a pot you duplicate your score into. At the end of the season, however far you filled it, that's your reward at the end. It's effectively what the grade system becomes.
There is also the point that although I imagine the effect is small, removing depips also encourages players to leave whenever they play against a killer they don't like even more. At least if they stand to lose a pip, they have an incentive to play it out.
Again my point of just increasing the rewards per game is the better solution. If you still stand to get 40k bloodpoints, even after getting completely smashed against a killer you hate, you're more likely to stick out the game. Whereas if you need to 'pip', it's better to just leave and try for a more favourable match up.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635329#Comment_3635329
So long as the game is designed in a way where a player can be almost entirely prevented from playing the game for reasons completely outside of their own control, there is no reason for depipping to exist. It is an unfair punishment that does not encourage improvement, it does not encourage anything except additional stress and frustration.
@adaw0ng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635329#Comment_3635329
You are missing the whole point of you having no control over pipping, and which is more concerning and frustrating, over losing pips and you're trying to justify it being a thing which I will disagree with no matter what since it makes 0 sense with the approach they tried to achieve with not being able to derank + criteria for emblem system is outdated as hell and pushes boring and uninteractive gameplay in some categories for both sides (clearest example is Unbroken emblem for survivor). It's just awfully designed overall and needs to be improved.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635329#Comment_3635329
I'd disagree when it comes to pip. Even the devs and mods on this forum claim the pips are more a reflection of time spent playing and not skill. Based on this claim that's why I take issue with losing pips. It punishes people who don't have the time to invest. As for the system would be pointless. I don't think so. You still have to get that pip.
the majority of the of time I only have the time to play one, maybe two games a day if I'm lucky. So if I'm delt a bad hand there is no chance for me just to work at getting the pips back. It's not like everyone would be Iri 1 either. Even if they took away de-pipping I don't play enough that I would be making it that high up anyway.
I do understand, and I'm not saying you're wrong about the issues with de-pipping.... I actually do agree that depipping is not set up well currently... but my reasoning for it is not that de-pipping feels bad, or is overly punishing for people who can't invest the time. What I actually believe is that the REAL bloodpoint objectives of the game are not particularly in line with how survivors or killers tend to play the game, so to rank up, you have to play in a weird and awkward way to try and secure points, rather than win the game.
I wrote a big post on about my epiphany about DBD objectives here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/402823/my-game-primary-objectives-epiphany-the-real-reason-for-the-soloq-swf-gap-et-al#latest
I won't ask you to read it, cause it's long, so the short version is that survivors are highly rewarded for escapes, allied unhooks, stuns and blinds. Generators don't really give you much, only a maximum of 1250 points, plus whatever you got for skill checks (which isn't much). So playing to "win the game" for your team as survivor is not really beneficial to you. The big points gains, come from getting unhooks, stunning and blinding the killer, and at end game, you're better off leaving your teammates to die than possibly getting yourself killed trying to save them. Most survivors do try to crank gens, and at end game try to save other survivors, the prevailing idea being "4 survivors escaping is a survivor win"... but that isn't actualyl your objective. A lot of survivors will sacrifice themselves to ensure 3 of their teammates will escape, but you are actually punished for doing this... letting 3 die and escaping yourself is actually far better for you in terms of points and pips. If you want to pip as survivor, surviving the trial is your paramount goal... if you're being tunneled, drawing the killer to gens being repaired to tempt them off tunneling you is actually better for YOUR survival. I'm not saying you should be required to do this... but this is the reality of how you avoid losing pips.
Similarly Killers are not particularly rewarded for getting a 4k by killing people as fast as possible... they are rewarded for getting hooks, chases and hits (thematically inflicting as much pain, fear and lost hope as possible), but because tunneling is the most effective means of gaining control against the speed of which survivors can complete generators, the risk of trying for more points is greatly outweighed by the likelyhood of everyone escaping if you don't try and kill everyone as fast as possible. This is why as a killer to rank up in iri, you usually have to 'farm' survivors for hooks if you get the chance before you kill them.
Knowing this, I'm not sure what I'd recommend.
I don't believe removing de-pipping is a sensible solution. It still is a time sink, so removing de-pips doesn't change the fact people who can't invest the time still need to invest the time, and ultimately if you want to pip, you'll still need to change your style and be more selfish regardless. The only resolution to avoid these problems would be to remove the grades entirely and just grant more points in general from each trial you play. I don't particularly want that, however the issue to my mind is not de-pipping, its the disproportionate rewards for trying to win the game.... but as I stated in my big post linked above... when you look at DBD through the lens of what the actual objectives of each side are, BHVR seem to have stuck to the idea that every survivor should at least have the option to play for themselves.
Thematically... throwing a teammate under the bus to save yourself is not an invalid method of trying to keep yourself alive. It's like that old saying "It's impossible to outrun a bear... but you don't need to outrun the bear... you only need to outrun the slowest person".
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@czinsation said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634557#Comment_3634557
The problems I have had when going against current Sadako is the loop of teleport>hit survivors to drop tapes>teleport plus something like Ruin or Surge makes it nearly impossible to cleanse Condemn and do the objective.
Sadako should certainly be strong and threatening on her own, but not so much so that survivors can't play the game.
Oh yeah, I get that. Current Sadako was obnoxiously good at generating condemn pressure. Sloppy Butcher and any other slowdown made her very hard to play around in SoloQ.
However if you knew what you were doing, you could play around her and make her kinda weak. New Sadako in the PTB addressed that problem, her condemn could be built up well, but survivors could counter it reasonably. She had to make a more concerted effort to get condemn stacks, but by the same token the survivors had to take more time off gens to manage their condemn.
At the end of the day, she's a basic m1 killer with no chase power/anti loop. Like the Pig she needs slow down to compensate for her weak chase. With these changes, she doesn't even have decent slow down, because like before Survivors could mostly ignore tapes and rush gens against her.
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@adaw0ng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635172#Comment_3635172
I don’t know why you try to dive so deep into something as simple as this topic is. It’s a terrible design especially on survivor, you physically can’t get the requirements the emblem system is build on. It’s just awful and outdated and punishes people for things out of their control at all. Fair if pipping is hard, but depipping is just awful. That was the point of making it impossible to derank once the ranks and marchmaking were changed, because the emblem system can’t be more flawed.
I'm just pointing out there are reasons for depipping to exist, and not everyone outright hates depipping (at least not in the fashion to where it should be removed). Climbing the ladder is a challenge, and a challenge only works as a challenge if you can lose. Without the ability to lose, its purely a grind with no stakes.
Yes, depipping sucks... you're not supposed to like depipping, its a counterbalance to the high of getting 2 pips. However you can't have the highs without the lows, the lows in fact are what define the highs.
If you study game design, your intrinsic motivation to play a game is at its strongest when you're close to reaching a goal, but haven't reached it yet... every single rank is a goal. The point of depipping is set stakes to keep you playing and invested in winning, especially when you're just a pip away to the next rank.
Do you play to win harder when you're 1 pip away from ranking up? Of course you do. Do you play more chill when you dont have a pip and cant possibly lise one? Of course you do. Everyone does, because that's the psychological effect pips provide.
So what I'm saying is, if you remove depiping, you may as well just remove the whole grading system entirely and just grant more blood points rewards from the end game. Without depips the system is pointless, and I'm not saying that to be condecending, I'm being serious. If you don't want depips, remove the entire grading system completely, because it has no function without them.
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From a game design point of view, depipping adds important stakes to the game. Think of Poker without an ante. If there is no chance of losing, you just fold every hand and don't bother playing unless you have a good hand.
If there are no stakes, then the whole grade system each season is kinda pointless. Might as well just jack up the bloodpoints awarded every game and chop it out entirely.
So as annoying as depipping is, it has to exist for the rewards of getting to iri1 to mean anything. That being said, the requirements of pipping in tbe iridescent leagues are kinda obnoxious.
I can get a game where I'm tunneled hard, somehow survive, and still depip because I didn't get enough heals, saves and gen repairs. Similarly I can get a 3k and depip because 3 survivors gave up immediately on hook and 1 got hatch, so I didn't get enough chases, hits and hooks.
To my mind depipping should still exist, but I wouldn't be too upset to see the safety pip bar lowered a notch or 2. Either that or grant the survivor additonal survival points for time in the trial at least. That would help.