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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236766#Comment_3236766
So you counter my 'speculation' with a whole heap of your own speculation. Okay?
Yes, my speculation is speculation. As BHVR does lower the MMR for Killers you've never tried it makes it unlikely that there are sufficient players that are so high in MMR that their MMR for a Killer they've never touched would still be in the top 5% and that they would exist in such large quantities that they could massively reduce the kill rates of a Killer with a 6.18% pick rate at the top 5% MMR especially in a game with as many players as DbD.
My speculation is speculation but it seems more reasonable than your speculation that there are these hordes of new Nurse players whose Nurses also happen to be in the top 5% of MMR even though they never touched the Killer and a new Killer has a lower MMR than your main Killer.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236738#Comment_3236738
Uh... They said d/cs are not included. Console users are included. The third one is obvious..
So, yeah, I know all of that?
DCs should not be included because they taint the data. Also, how do you know the players at high MMR are learning Nurse? Do you have any stats or evidence to back up your claim? It seems pretty far-fetched to me that players who are in the top 5% of MMR never touched Nurse and managed to get their MMR so high that their brand new Nurse was also in the top 5% of MMR and they exist in enough quantities to reduce the kill rate by more than a slight amount if at all.
The 5% MMR wasn't this is the top 5% by PC, then by console, then by soft cap, it was the top 5% period. The console players on it were obviously good enough on console they could get in the top 5% of MMR.
You have no proof or evidence that anything you're suggesting is more than pure speculation. Killers have separate MMRs so the Nurses included in the top 5% were Nurses in the top 5% period. If you want to speculate that's fine but it's just speculation and nothing more.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236684#Comment_3236684
Where is this evidence that nurse is fine? It has already been proven that the stats mean nothing when it comes to nurse.
There isn't a single piece of evidence that suggests she is fine.
I have no idea who that SWF team is. But how am I ignoring them? SWF is broken/imbalanced at the top level too. Didn't think I'd say that? I'm not a survivor main. I’m not a killer main. I want each side to have balance, something many players in this thread simply cannot say.
It hasn't been proven that the stats are invalid. The devs have cautioned that the stats for the Killers aren't the complete picture but the stats are not invalid. The stats are telling a story and that story does not support your narrative. Just because the stats don't say what you want them to say doesn't mean it's invalid.
So, once again, where is your proof and at what level is Nurse broken? It's not at low and mid MMRs, it's not at the top 5% of MMR, so at what level is Nurse broken? And, if that level is only a small subset of players why should their opinions override everyone else's? Part of the reason DbD is successful while so many other similar games have failed is because they want players at all skill levels to have fun.
So, once again, where is your evidence apart from the best players, both as Killers and as Nurse, win a lot which is to be expected and where exactly is a Nurse an issue if there is no issue seen in over 95% of MMR?
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236579#Comment_3236579
It is a statistical improbability that a tournament player and someone who has been high up in multiple categories on the stats site (was #4 in hatches closed, top 20 for a long time until I couldn't play as much) is in the top 5 percent?
It is already proven that those stats mean literally nothing to nurse. Why do you keep mentioning that?
I feel like this is bizzaro world, these forums. People who don't have experience in something trying to insist to those that do that everything is/isn't fine.
There isn't a single piece of evidence that nurse is fine. What is there, though? Consistent displeasure for years about how oppressive she is, by players who are at a high level. But I guess she is fine because you 4-outted a nurse a few times.
Awesome, if that's accurate then you're complaining about the top 1% or less of Nurses. Once again, BHVR should not balance a game that is based on participation solely on such a small subset of players. If this were a competitive sport like major league football that depends on spectators, sure. As it is, no. Video games need to balance on participation unless they're in the very few,which DbD isn't, that ended up being able to go completely competitive.
You still have not given any evidence there is anything wrong with Nurse. The stats don't show it. All you point to is cherry picked streamers while ignoring the Nurses that get beaten by Henz and other such SWFs. All you bring up for evidence is people complain on forums. People complain on forums all the time about everything.
If you want Nurse nerfed because you have a personal issue with Nurse feel free to express that. It's a feeling; this is a forum to express yourself. However, you don't have one shred of evidence to back up your statement while there are pieces of evidence that discredit your statements. If you don't find Nurse fun that's a reason to complain but also please keep in mind there are other people that enjoy Nurse, both versus and as, and their fun needs to be considered as well.
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@Murgleïs said:
I have never seen a killer slap me on the hook during my 2000h of DBD.
I have. It's rare but it happens. It probably happens more in other regions.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236241#Comment_3236241
"Nurse is not even close to the issue you think it is," says the person not experiencing the issue to the person experiencing the issue.
SWF is a balance issue. Nurse is a bigger one.
In my thousands of hours in the game I have gone up against a full tourney death-squad only a handfull of times in public matches. They are not common. They are hard to set up. They don’t happen a lot. Does that mean they aren't imbalanced? No, but that issue pales in comparison to the nurse issue.
Nurse has an extreme advantage over equally skilled survivors all the way up until those death squads I mentioned, where they are about equal.
"if the Nurse player is better and has better rng, the nurse wins. If we're better, we win."
It just isn't true...nurse's mechanics allow her to perform higher than the player using her's skill level. That's what OP means. That's what nurse is. I'm baffled you think survivors are on equal footing with nurse. They aren't, apart from the situation listed above.
Like, sorry, but you're just wrong.
Just like playing SWF allows you to beat a killer higher than your skill level, Nurse allows you to do the same. It's just fact.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236254#Comment_3236254
1) I did. Read again.
2) This guy doesn't think nurse is the best killer/best in those aspects of the game. That's all anyone needs to know about his credibility on the subject of Nurse and balance..
The only issue you're experiencing is one you created for yourself. Nurse does not create a situation where they have an extreme advantage; it's just their counterplay isn't greatly enhanced by maps where there are virtually infinite pallets and semi infinite loops. The issue is more likely your skill versus Nurse and that you're not dealing with the counterplay.
I'm not in the top 5% of MMR for survivor and I really doubt you are because it's a statistical improbability. In any event, the stats for the top 5% of MMR do not indicate an issue and only attempts to invalidate the stats based on your personal feelings have been made.
If there is an issue where's the proof it exists outside of a group of people who are largely the exact same people making multiple anti-Nurse threads? Nurse isn't unbeatable by the highest level survivors and gets bodied quite regularly at the mid and lower levels. The top 5% MMR doesn't have an issue with Nurse so where is the problem? The top 1%? The top 0.01? No game that depends on participation should balance solely on those levels.
So, once again, other than your personal opinion, where is your proof that Nurse is a wide spread issue? Disliking a Killer simply because you don't know or don't want to learn the counterplay or the top 1% or less of players are really good with her but no other level has an issue is not a reason to nerf anything.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236250#Comment_3236250
I am sure many people enjoy Nurse, but when the majority does not, clearly there is a problem. That is where the '2 or 3 Surv's game being ruined' claim comes from. It is like if you play a 2v2 on a team slayer map on Halo and most people agreed to not use the rocket when playing 2v2s. It would partially be the company's fault for not altering the map from the 4v4 default version for the 2v2 playlist, partially the individual's fault for using the rockets, and partially the community's fault for not boycotting the game until the rockets were removed from 2v2s on that map, reduced in ammo, slowed respawn rate, or otherwise changed. Most people still enjoy the 2v2s (or the rest of the game), and a slim percentage like using rockets on 2v2s, and it is that difference in opinion where the clash is for Nurse in this analogy.
I do find it strange that you would dislike going against a Killer where the most individual skill is put on display on the Survivor's end though. If you are a 'god'-looper he is not a problem. Also barring the rift skin's bugged pay-to-win silence, he has plenty of visual and auditory tells for his appearance/arrival, giving Survivors plenty of opportunity for counterplay. Also unlike Myers/Plague/Oni/etc. you cannot be penalized by the Killer's Power for your teammate's failings, as Ghostie has the individual stalk bars on each Surv. He also is only limited to basic M1 potential, barring on demand red-light removal and crouching for medium height loops. The core kit is still based around 4.6 ultimately though.
Overall the DC problem is what I view as a symptom of not having a ban system as described in my other post. A ban system could prevent Survs and Killers from feeling hopeless and not wanting to play from the onset, and still allow the majority of the game to be accessible when only a comparatively small thing ruins an individual's experience enough to drive them to DC.
Also I don't know if I clarified in this thread, but I don't hard DC. I might become demoralized and sit on gens when I see my teammate crouch into the basement for the 5th time in a single match, but I still try to progress the match. I just understand why people would DC (see above basement croucher for one example among many*), and see the penalty against the DC being symptomatic treatment, instead of treating the disease so to speak. It is a poor band-aid fix that has long overstayed its welcome, and the source cause needs to be properly addressed.
*[EDIT: I DO NOT ENDORSE DCs, I am simply saying I can understand how someone else could reach that incorrect result. Sadly I believe I have to clarify because I was falsely warned in the past for 'endorsing' something I wasn't endorsing.]
You don't have a source or statistic to say 'most' people don't like going against Nurse other than your own personal opinion. Your 2v2 analogy also isn't applicable as there is no previous agreement to not use Nurse. There is an implied agreement when you play the game that the game will be played as intended and Nurse is part of the game as intended. The only person who is breaking the agreement and ruining a game is the DCer.
As for Ghostface, I would say Nurse is the best test of individual skill especially at mind gaming. Ghostface needs buffs still and isn't that good but I still find Ghostface annoying due to the janky reveal mechanics and whether I escape depends on if everyone looks for him while working on gens. Still, a Ghostface that's a better Killer than the Survivor overall skill level will usually win and a worse one will usually lose (after RNG). I can cheese Ghostface though with the individual map such as the Game or Fractured Cowshed vs Shelter Woods. It's far more difficult to cheese Nurse with the map. However, my personal dislike for Ghostface does not mean that Ghostface is unbeatable, if anything Ghostface is weak, just as your dislike for Nurse does not mean Nurse is unbeatable or broken. Ghostface still needs buffs and Nurse doesn't need anything but not liking a Killer is not a reason to DC.
If somebody doesn't like a Killer they should express it but not through condoning DCs or DCing themselves. DCers are at fault for ruining games and nobody else. If it's not hackers, hostage taking or a real life issue there is no reason that is not entirely selfish to DC.
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The best times for me are generally Saturday and Sunday days. I've had 6/8 escapes to 7/8 escapes each day on the weekend. Then Monday night I normally got stomped like crazy. My theory is that a lot of new Killers play on the weekend so I generally get matched with Killers below my MMR and then Monday night I get matched with Killers above my now inflated MMR and get squished back down.
The rest of the nights during the week I don't really notice a huge difference so I'm assuming that's what it is.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236049#Comment_3236049
I see you didn't read my reply to the other person. Rephrased here, by knowing people dislike Nurse so heavily, anyone picking her would bear some of the responsibility for early suicides on hook/DCs because they know that is a very common result. They queued up knowing they would 'ruin' 2 or 3 on average Survivor's experience (in a 4 Surv match), and if one of those 2 or 3 DC as a result, increasing the 'ruined' experience to 4 or 5 players in the match total, the Nurse player shoulders some (not all) of the blame there. Part of the blame also lies on BHVR for allowing those Killers and actions to exist in that state. When Nurses don't shoulder any part of that blame, is when they truly lack the cognitive awareness that people dislike Nurse to that extreme, and their skills match that cognitive awareness, in only allowing them kills through facecamping, or Survivors greeding for 4-man escapes.
I don't get to pretend my actions don't have consequences, especially when someone else does something in direct response to my actions or inactions. If I don't feed my pet fish, I can't pretend that if they try to eat each other it isn't my fault. If I play like a scumbag as Killer, I should expect t-bags when the Survs can get away with it. If I play like a scumbag as Surv, I should expect to be facecamped and/or hit on hook. If I queue up with my 'story-mode' difficulty build, I shouldn't be surprised when I get so many easy 'wins', even if that rate was artificially inflated by some people DCing to avoid such debauchery.
I did read your post. Your point is invalid though. I like playing against Nurse and do do a lot of other people. I find Ghostface extremely annoying. I don't DC against Ghostface because other people might like playing against Ghostface, I'm not the only person in the match and if I'm going to play in a team role I should put forward my best effort. The game then ends and I move on to a match I like more.
If you DC against Nurse or any Killer just because you don't like that Killer you are being a bad player in a team based role. The fault is on the DCer only and not anyone else.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236224#Comment_3236224
Oh, you mean the stats that seem to suggest Dredge is the 2nd best killer in the game? Or that Blight is barely above average? The stats that include console players who have trouble playing as killers like nurse? The stats that the devs themselves said are not to be used to support statement such as yours?
Or maybe we should nerf Wesker, a pretty well-made and balanced killer into the ground because his stats suggest he is overperforming by a lot.
Yeah..that nurse percentage means nothing.
Want to know why the nurse percentage is lower than it actual should be? Killer mmr doesn't work. The mmr system doesn't work. If you are high mmr as killer you will face the same survivors no matter what killer you play as. So someone who has put a lot of time into other killers and is really good at other killers tries nurse? Get stomped because it takes some time to learn her? That's a 0k towards her stats. And that happens a lot.
At 5% MMR you're facing other people within 350 points maximum of your MMR. That is a huge skill range but a 1850 MMR versus a 2200 MMR doesn't mean the 1850 is bad. The 1850 is a great player. A 2200 MMR Killer could also face a 2550 MMR survivor and get stomped.
Nurse is not even close to the issue you think it is. I do face mid level Nurses because I'm a mid level survivor. If the Nurse player is better and has better RNG, the Nurse wins. If we're better we win.
People throw out this straw man argument of a 'God Nurse' that's maybe, what, less than 1% of the players? Henz and his SWF death squad aren't what BHVR should balance around and neither should balancing be done around Otzdarva. Everyone I listed is just that much better of a player than everyone else so they have a very high win rate.
Perhaps the Nurse players you lose to are just better Killers than you are at Survivor? If you want to improve your gameplay that's probably a good assumption to start with.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236210#Comment_3236210
So you think nurse is fine because the nurses you faced got 0k's.
And you think you play well against good nurses when the Nurses you are actually going against haven't even learned how to play her yet.
Hmm..
And yet the Nurses in the top 5% of MMR don't have a kill rate that would support your statement. If you don't want to learn the counterplay that's on you and a you problem.
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@Orochi said:
Nobody is going to give you videos of them losing, stop with that crap too. Just because nobody gives you videos doesn't mean s*** either.
Counterplay to Nurse: make lucky guesses the whole match
I did. I like playing against Nurse and I like solo queue. Partially it was because certain posters accused me of lying so I recorded 75 consecutive games and posted them online and gave the link.
I had a 45.3% escape rate overall so I lost just short of 55% of the games. I think in 20% of the games we got stomped. However, none of the losses and stomping were from a Nurse. In fact, it was a 4E during the trials we faced a Nurse.
The fact that you can't effectively play against Nurse and don't like playing against Nurse doesn't mean everyone has that problem. Play Nurse for a few weeks and you'll have a much better idea of her limitations.
The link to the videos, by the way, is in my profile discussions in case you want proof I recorded both wins and losses.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233371#Comment_3233371
Is one match indicative of the entire game? There are a wide variety of potential experiences that can occur, and disliking less than 10% of those experiences is more than valid.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233433#Comment_3233433
Strange to say "ruin other player's experiences" in a defense of playing Nurse. A Nurse pick in and of itself ruins a very high percentage of the player base's experience(Blight too, to a lesser degree), so by picking that Killer, the Killer player chose to statistically 'ruin' 2 or 3 out of 5 people's experience if we were to follow your logic. Also if it ruined one of those people's experience enough to cause a DC/quit, the Killer pick was indirectly responsible for ruining the experience for everyone else that wanted a 'real' match, possibly rising that to 4 or 5 out of 5. It is possible to not know that people don't like playing against Nurse/Blight, but that requires such a disconnect from reality that I don't think their skill level would be able to support killing Survivors other than through facecamping, or Survs throwing for the 4 man out.
Also the 'might' is the issue, they might have a 'real' match, or they might have the 5th Blight match in a row. I cannot blame anyone for being sick of any Killer on 5 times repeat 1/29^5 (or ~.000005% of matches) or Nurse 1/29 (3.4% of matches). That is a solid ~96% of 'real' matches. Some games have connection issues preventing more proper matches, so that is an acceptable margin of failure in my eyes.
Some people bring scummy things, and by doing so they prove they want an easy 'win'. These are the people who should be playing a single-player game since they want to play a multiplayer game on 'story-mode' difficulty. What is the issue with their opposition shortcutting to the mostly foregone conclusion? Especially if they brought a meme build that can't compete with their opponent's scummy build. What is the difference in the 'win' happening at the 2 minute mark instead of the 20? 18 minutes of people's time and energy being saved for a potential 'real' match, the kind of match that brings people back to the game, enjoying their time, and willing to spend more money on the game. Theoretically I have a greater chance of winning against a Starstruck Nurse when I get the 4% kobe, than when I get rescued by a teammate. It is the best chance of success, which is sad given how low that chance is. I'd say about 90% of my teammates get caught en route (either from them being bad, them giving up on seeing Starstruck, or the Nurse's intel perks), which compared to my cumulative ~11.5% 3 Kobe chance, is better to go for the Kobe.
Now other games have a feature to ban unique characters that would otherwise be unenjoyable, overpowered, or ruin your experience. I would have a Killer ban system for Survivors, that allows 1 ban per 5 Killers released/not killswitched (5 now at 29 total, and 6 when the next Killer is released at 30 total). (SWF would either use the lobby leader's bans, or cycle through each person's bans to create a list of the max bans Eg. 3 bans for (1)Nurse/Blight/Doctor and (2)Nurse/Plague/Oni would take Nurse(1)/Plague(2)/Blight(1)) That way people who hate Nurse/Blight don't have to go against them, people with epilepsy or issues with strobing/flashing don't have to go against Doctor, and people with emetophobia don't have to go against Plague. Similarly I would give Killers a map/realm ban at the same 1/5 rate. That way Blight doesn't have to cry about swamp, and stealth Killers won't have to tear their face off attempting to play on Blood Lodge.
Nurse is a part of the game. If you are DCing just because you're dealing with a part of the game, especially over something that occurs less than 10% of the time, you should stop being selfish and go to a single player game or role such as Killer.
By DCing you are only spoiling the experience for four other people. If you have to DC over something that occurs so infrequently you should not be playing in a role where people rely on you to put in a good faith effort.
The DCer is the one at fault for ruining the experience for other people; not the Killer, not BHVR, only the DCer.
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Nurse has a low kill rate in all MMRs. At high MMR she's above the median but not even in the top 5. The data released doesn't support any nerfs to Nurse.
In terms of the M2 attack, I'd rather see Pig get her attack changed back to an M1 if we want consistency. Legion is a different matter since their M2 applies Deep Wound but Pig's is just a straight movement speed buff and nothing else.
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Mine are fortunately about the same. I have seen a rise in BM on the survivor side and a rise in camping and tunneling on the Killer side. I assume, however, that the Killer will camp and tunnel every match when I play solo and plan for it so I'm not disturbed when it happens.
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@LylakLavender said:
As a survivor main I agree with this 100%. I have played Trapper and I feel bad for him cause he just doesn't cut it no pun intended. Unless he has an add on he gets what 3 traps to start with? At least huntress gets 5 axes to start with. #TrapperShouldBeBuffed
Two traps to start 😥
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3234453#Comment_3234453
All 4 of them in the screenshot have the sacrifice icon, and they have scores so nobody DCed on hook or anything like that to mess it up. It just didn't register one of them for an unknown reason, going off the screenshot they should have followed all of the conditions correctly. I've had this happen with multiple challenges, like the health state ones.
I had this happen the first time I should have gotten the 'Left For Dead' achievement. The other survivor died when the last gen was 90% done and I finished it while the Killer was looking for (and closed) the Hatch. I complete the gen, successfully evade the Killer, open an exit gate, run out, no achievement. I was supremely annoyed.
I did get it a few months later but my disappointment when it didn't trigger the first time was palpable.
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@Carmina_is_cute said:
BHVR confirmed that their kill rate statistics don't count DCs, so people who DC against Nurse skew the results away from reality.
How does not including games where people DC skew the results away from reality? I've had multiple games where somebody DCed early and the results ranged from 1 gen left to a 3E. In the games where people didn't get out but the gens were all done or only one was left that would have likely been an escape for at least someone without a DCer. If there is a DC, the data is tainted. The reality is what's represented in the games without DCs.
Besides, if anyone DCs on purpose for any reason other than a hacker/glitch or real life issue then they are the problem. DCers should either learn how to play Killer and stick to it or go to single player games where people don't have to rely on them. It could be not only their lack of willingness to learn how to play against Nurse but also their selfishness that causes a DCer to play poorly against Nurse.
BHVR shouldn't balance their game around players that DC. They're bad players in a team based role. That would be unfair to those that actually do play the game as intended.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
Honestly, I don't even register the survivors as tea-bagging when they crouch in the game. It doesn't bother me. Why does it bother others so much?
I don't like it when people give me the middle finger either which tbagging is equivalent to. Call me crazy that way
@LylakLavender said:
I think it's because the way the event is designed. It kind of encourages BM on some stuff. Don't get me wrong it's a unique event but what's killing it is both sides lose points when either hitting and hooking survivors and stunning the killer with pallets. If they took away the theft aspect it would in my opinion make the game less sweaty on both sides. I could be wrong but that's what I think.
Honestly, I think you're probably correct.
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@LylakLavender said:
It's not just survivors I have seen a lot of BM on killer side to. Me I don't BM the killer cause I hate it when I do occasionally play killer. This event has brought out the worse in people.
@Roaroftime said:
Yes killers have definitely gotten more toxic, especially after DC penalties were returned yesterday. I'm just glad I got all the event items when DC Penalties were off because all the sweats stopped playing because they know people wouldn't stay in their boring games so It was just baby killers.
I haven't seen a big increase in BM from the Killers in my solo games. However, I definitely have seen an increase in camping and tunneling ever since the event started. You're both experiencing a bunch of BM though as well from the Killers?
Edit: I was just going to add it makes sense some of them seemed newer as well. From my own experiences, who is going to teabag an Artist at a pallet unless they're very unfamiliar with her power?
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3234446#Comment_3234446
To be fair, there are people who make entire careers out of their skill in games. From dedicated content creators to tournament players who travel the world for various tournaments, there is potential to take pride in one's skill in a game. This ain't it tho, you're right about that.
I agree. For tournament players and content creators it is literally their job and income so I understand why they would be more invested. The OP says they don't stream and they don't play comp so neither of those are true for them.
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@Lobos said:
Here we go again.. I'd love to watch you face a good squad just to see you humiliated and have to eat your own words in front of everyone. Maybe you could learn to be a bit more humble from it too.
It's just sad that you think this is cool or tough or whatever it is you're trying to do here. Even if what you're saying is true, who cares?
Congrats on being good at a video game that your opponents play just for fun and not making any money from it. Brilliant 👍
I think the OP would be better off figuring out why so much of their ego is tied up in a form of recreation that costs money and whose only benefit is personal entertainment instead of something that actually provides a tangible benefit in their life. There's nothing wrong in being proud of one's skill in a form of entertainment but you have to keep in mind that's all it is.
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I played against the bots when I first started. Then I played against beginning players as I was brand new. It took about a week and a half before I started seeing survivors that were better than the bot. For my solo games, give me bots over a flashlight clicky clicky SWF that's just going to swarm the Killer and get killed trying to stroke their egos. I'll have a better chance of escaping.
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@LunaticLizzie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3234124#Comment_3234124
Faster nurse with M2s, any day of the week. That way she CAN earn exposed downs, but actually has to earn them the good ole-fashioned way that every other killer has to earn them. I literally never argued Nurse should be slower than survivors. I never argued Nurse was particularly a problem outside of the highest highest levels of play, which is what I consider half-exposed-half-aura builds, whether they occur at "high MMR" or not (especially given that actual MMR is completely intangible to us as players anyways). Even if in effect it looks like the Nurse blinking in front of you to bodyblock, eating the fatigue in your face, then catching back up to M1 you, that's perfectly acceptable IMO.
Okay, cool. I'm not saying you said Nurse should be slower than survivors but that's part of the reason why Nurse's attacks are considered M1s. There are a lot of threads about nerfing Nurse but a lot of them are just blanket nerf calls (in general, not specifically anyone) but very few consider both sides.
I just think the arguments for nerfing Nurse's blink attacks sound more reasonable and are more likely to be considered if people take into account why they exist and make suggestions as to how to change things. Personally, if I were a dev, I would take a post that's 'hey, I think is problematic but I know it's here for x reason. Here's a possible solution' more seriously than the calls for blanket nerfs.
I think she'd still be fun to play either way but I'm just mentioning it because most people, not you, but most who complain about Nurse just sound like they don't know how to counter Nurse or don't want to learn how. Saying it feels more fair if this happens but this is also given so it's fair to Nurse players strikes a different chord.
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@LunaticLizzie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3234062#Comment_3234062
"But I still fail to see how literally any of that means it's okay that Nurse can teleport to a healthy survivor and instantly down them with her 100% special attack "basic" attack should she use one of the seven trillion exposed perks in the game, and if she knows what she's doing, she probably will be."
Please don't make me repeat myself. Nurse Enjoyers, who I do respect but respectfully tend to disagree with, cannot seem to point out why it's okay that a Nurse can run one perk to see you through walls, run another to squeeze as much exposed out of you as possible, and then run two add-ons that make getting there EZPZ, and have it actually work despite post-blink hits being inarguably a special attack, no matter what way you spin it.
Because Nurse isn't over performing in comparison to the other Killers. I personally don't care if they make Blink attacks a special attack or not but, if they do, that diminishes the argument for Nurse to be slower than survivors. If survivors just run in a straight line Nurse literally needs to use her power to make any hits. She doesn't have an option to basic attack in most circumstances which makes Exposed perks next to useless on her without Blinks.
So, which sounds better? A faster Nurse but Blink attacks are M2s or a Nurse whose Blink attacks are M1s but can't catch up to survivors without her power? I personally don't care either way but Nurse isn't over performing so I don't see any pressing reason to make changes when items such as solo queue status icons and help for Killers like Trapper are more needed.
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@LunaticLizzie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3234044#Comment_3234044
Okay? Trickle-down balancing, AKA a pretty widely applicable and, dare I say, "good" way to balance things, dictates that if things function off-kilter or too strongly at the highest possible level, then nerfing it will be fine for the lowest possible level that didn't even know you could do that.
And yes, I'm aware, even top-tier Nurse players struggle with gens and that Blight tends to have a lot more leniency anyways, I have seen Otz' video, you needn't clarify for me,
But I still fail to see how literally any of that means it's okay that Nurse can teleport to a healthy survivor and instantly down them with her 100% special attack "basic" attack should she use one of the seven trillion exposed perks in the game, and if she knows what she's doing, she probably will be.
'Trickle down balancing' is terrible for participation; all skill levels have to be considered. As an example, there's a certain other asymmetrical that tried it and has lost close to 95% of their player base.
If you want spectators as in competitive sports, sure, balance solely for the top. If you want participants and a thriving game community, consider all skill levels in balance.
And, besides, according to the kill rates for the top 5% MMR Nurse is fine. That's not the only factor BHVR takes into account but the kill rates aren't showing any issues.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233375#Comment_3233375
FYI the estimates we calculated a while ago were 6% or so of the playerbase is over the soft cap. So it's probably roughly the same people.
That makes a lot of sense.
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@jasperian said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233328#Comment_3233328
Listen to what you said. Why do all the new killers HAVE to be anti loop? Why is that even a part of the game? You shouldn’t be able to just press a single button as Artist or Dredge to make a perfectly good pallet dead. That requires zero skill to do. Or am I wrong?
What I said isnt that I want braindead M1 only killers, but I think we need killers that need to do more than click one button to make one of the only things in the entire game that lets us escape impossible to use. Especially when killers are using perks like Dissolution, Spirit Fury, Unrelenting & Brutal Strength. We have no countering and the stats show that.
In response to your question you're wrong. Mindgames are a learned skill for each side. As well, you do have counters to Dissolution, Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength and Unrelenting. They're considered weak perks for a reason.
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That's great DC penalties are back.
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I'm not saying you're wrong or right but BHVR also used the top 5% of MMR; not 5% of the softcap but the actual top 5%. I always assumed that the top 5% would be dominated by SWF. If it actually does have a lot of solo players then solos can get to much higher heights of gameplay than I imagined previously. If that is the case then solo is much more manageable than what people like to portray.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233094#Comment_3233094
To be fair to the Hatchet example I love playing against a low latency Huntress, but a high latency match (myself or her) involving Huntress is a nightmare to me. Every DBD youtube channel under the sun has a compilation of BS hatchet hits, and any DC against Huntress (whether my victims or my teammates) I just interpret as a false hit and not wanting to play under such redic conditions.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233098#Comment_3233098
Or they know the counterplay, but have no intention of sweating their butts off when they wanted a chill match until they saw the Agi Starstruck or DMS/PR.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233129#Comment_3233129
This is so out of touch with reality and all too tribalistic. The opposite and equally false argument would be "All Killers facecamp if you dropped a pallet on them once, and they always run the build to support facecamping."
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233145#Comment_3233145
It also could be someone signing up to read a book and then are forced to read an entire library. Someone can easily see they are out of their depth and not like that. Similarly they could attempting a tome, and the Killer's mechanics or playstyle prevents the tome from being possible. For example a heal tome against Plague. They can't complete their goal, so they decide to move on to a match where they can, by DC or by suicide on hook or by not attempting to run the Killer at all. If we are going to apply the logic that one side can bring whatever they want, and play however they want, then the other side needs to have that same right.
Then the DCer should play single player games until they feel like sticking with the game. As well, they forfeit any credibility with complaining about game mechanics of any Killer (or survvivor mechanics if the DCer is a Killer) if they can't even stick to a single game.
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@SilentShepherd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233098#Comment_3233098
nope
I play against Blight's just fine.
However, I hate Nurse and think she should be scrapped and re-worked completely.
Regardless of whether you hate her or not, you're still being selfish if you DC against her.
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@roundpitt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232848#Comment_3232848
Most people who play nurse are bad with her. It's actually my favorite thing to do, a nurse starts charging her power, so I just run in her direction and she teleports waaaaaaaay past me.
I suspect the vast number of bad nurses are deflating the kill percentages for her.
They definitely reduce the overall kill rate. The top 5% MMR isn't showing a crazy win rate either though. I suspect the people complaining about Nurse just have a mental block about her or can't be bothered to learn the counterplay. If the Nurses in the top 5% of MMR don't have a crazy winrate who are these 'unstoppable' Nurse players? The top 0.1% The top 0.01%? I don't think the rest of the playerbase needs to be nerfed due to the top 0.1% in any role.
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People insta-DC against Nurses and Blights because they can't be bothered to figure out the counterplay and they're selfish enough to not care about the effect on the rest of the team.
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@squirtinq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232238#Comment_3232238
Many would say otherwise.
The people who DC over camping, tunneling or SWFs should play single player games instead.
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@McDoobz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232619#Comment_3232619
Just sliding in here to let you know that we received many requests from players to include Pick rates in our post, so we've gone ahead and added those in.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NUJOHCRND6VJ/tablekr3.png
Thank you, now I definitely understand why my games have so much Weskin' time.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232837#Comment_3232837
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232871#Comment_3232871
This type of argument is exactly why the devs say not to use these stats in discussions about balance. People will always use them to support or dismiss each other's opinions operating under the assumption they represent concrete fact. Neither of you are wrong, but neither of you are right basically.
I do think they should be used to dismiss incredibly hyperbolic comments such as 'Nurse has no counterplay' or, on the other side, 'DbD is completely survivor sided!'. While I can't draw really specific conclusions from the data it definitely shows that there is a lot more nuance than what the one-sided opinions suggest.
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@SilentShepherd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232877#Comment_3232877
DC's should count. A lot of people DC when they get first downed by a Nurse, for example.
Not including DC's... is wrong
I disagree because the main reason people lost is because someone DCed. I've had multiple games where someone DCed early but we still got to either 1 gen left, all gens done to 1 to 3 escapes. Some of those games were wins and the others would probably have been wins if the DCer had just stuck around.
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@SilentShepherd said:
Those stats aren't really official though are they. They're not pulled from the servers across every single game played. They're pulled from self-submission reports on a 3rd party website, by the few players who even bother to go to that website and upload photos. And they don't do that for every game anyway.
They're the BHVR stats so they are all the games played in September where there were no DCs (which would throw off the data if games with DCs were included since nobody can say if those games were winnable or not before the DC).
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@maximo99ac said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232815#Comment_3232815
no, a lot of nurse mains defended she being op because his killrate was low but now we can see that she is above average in kill rates so that argument is obsolete
The rates show Nurse isn't even in the top 5 and has a low overall Kill rate. The stats show she's fine.
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I would just like to point out that at the top 5% of MMR Nurse isn't even in the top 5 of Killers and she has a low overall kill rate. She is counterable and Wesker is actually more dangerous.
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@maximo99ac said:
the best part about this data is that destroys the old "nurse is fine because she has the lowest kill rate"
Nurse is fine because her kill rate isn't even in the top 5 at high MMR and has a low overall kill rate. Is that what you mean?
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232775#Comment_3232775
it was used very offensively just like new base kit bt/off the record. People were trying to get your attention as you were chasing someone else and then they hopped in a locker to force the stun.
The issue I see with that argument, though, is that there is very simple counter play; ignore them. When I'm playing Killer and see a Survivor trying to get my attention I assume there's a reason and ignore them. Why would I waste my time chasing a good looper in a strong tile while their team does gens?
It's the same thing if I'm chasing somebody and the last person I hooked gets in my way. If I can't ignore them I slug them and go back to my chase. That way I know at least two, usually 3, and, if the survivors are uncoordinated, all 4 are not on gens.
For that matter, I'll sometimes just smack the unhooked person if they stick right by me not to tunnel them but just to force them to mend before they heal.
I'm quite happy to leave a recently unhooked survivor slugged or let them sit in a locker; they're not doing gens and require another survivor to get off gens to pick them up if slugged. Overall, handling it that way just seems like its a net time loss for the survivors.
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@NerfedFreddy said:
Good data that debunks a lot of killer mains' narratives
"Low mmr inflates killrates" "Pig/Sadako is weak" etc
Wesker needs nerfs. I hope it's pretty clear to devs and won't take much time to make changes
Speaking of debunking narratives, Nurse is a lower kill rate than Sadako both at high MMR and overall. I guess that means all the calls for Nurse nerfs are just hyperbole. Nurse is fine.
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Congrats!
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I agree, I think it should be buffed. It still takes up a perk slot, it can be used to get in the Killer's way but then just slug them, you can't do anything productive without deactivating it and, on M1 Killer's, I get very little usage from it as it usually takes the Killer more than 60 seconds to down me if I have OTR. It's weak at the amount and does nothing if not tunnelled. It needs a buff.
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Not a chance. I'm not selfish enough to wreck other people's gaming experience. Anyone who does do that should just stick to single player games.
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If the survivors let a 3 gen come into being that's their fault. If the survivors can't stack up on gens enough because nobody is willing to go down then that's also their fault. It's only holding the game hostage if you refuse to down a survivor even if they're in the 3 gen area but you won't let them do gens.
That's really hard to accomplish. If one survivor is left, the hatch opens. If there are two survivors only one can be bodyblocked. If one is bleeding out, that is furthering the objective as the survivor will bleed out and the game will end.
The only way I think a Killer could realistically do it would be to have one survivor left, bodyblock them without EGC starting, and just AFK. That would 100% be bannable but just holding a 3 gen? No. If you chase too far, you lose and you're holding put trying to get a down. It's boring overall but it is progressing the game.
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@VicRatlhead said:
I was tunneled last night. It was obvious too. He was in chase with someone and spotted me and broke chase to go for me even though I was quite a bit further away than the Yui he was chasing. It totally backfired. Well, maybe not totally, I did die. The other three managed to pound out 4 gens before the killer got me to death hook though. Then he was stuck with 1 gen left and three survivors who hadn't been hooked. They had no problem getting out
How is tunneling a good strategy again? Just seems prickish. Doesn't seem all that beneficial since it removes a lot of pressure from the gens.
Tunneling only works if the Killer can tunnel the survivor out quickly and the team doesn't intefere. Otherwise, it's a detriment. Unfortunately, so many newer Killers that they tunnel and camp from the beginning, get success at low MMR, and then get to an MMR where they don't have the chase skills to pull it off. Then they get 1K or 0K after, get frustrated, and talk about how the game is survivor sided when the issue is that tunneling is low skill floor enough at the beginning you can get disproportionate success which falls apart once you hit an MMR where most survivors are at the skill floor where you know the strategies to counter tunneling.
It would necessitate Killer buffs after but the strongest argument, imo, for current DS basekit is that it would discourage tunneling enough that BHVR could balance for a healthier gamestyle.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3231556#Comment_3231556
I always found that strange when people say things like "Oh, all (insert survivor name) are like this or that". I guess maybe on a psychological level certain survivors could attract certain type of players, but overall I don't think you can judge.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3231732#Comment_3231732
Case in point to what I just wrote. I play shirtless David now and then and never play toxic.
Feel free to sub in then for the shirtless Davids on my server. I won't complain.