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Philosophical question of the day: If a thread is only one month old when it gets necroed is it really a necro?
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@tippy2k2 said:
It's probably the closest thing to BM I do as a killer. If there's five gens left/beginning of the game and you try to suicide on hook right away, I will put you on the ground and leave you there.
Whether you DC or lie there, you're getting a time penalty if I have anything to say about it...
Definitely. Everyone else used offerings, etc with the expectation that the game would be played as normal. Someone who is selfish enough to ignore that deserves the bleedout.
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@Lobos said:
Seriously, quit crying about OP survivors. You've already established that you are a new player by your lack of knowledge about the game. You just parrot things you hear on streams and act like it's from your experience and it's fairly easy to see that's what you are doing.
Go play Survivor only for a month and experience it yourself or just stop making posts. You are starting to look like a troll poster.
Starting?
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@Katzengott said:
So you guys really think they exclude games from the stats, where even just 1 surv DCs?
Or kills himself early on the hook?
Definitely. As soon as someone DCs it screws up the data. The killing themselves early on hook probably can't be detected but it's one of the reasons why BHVR has aimed for a 60% kill rate. A survivor DCing early throws the odds to the Killer side. If BHVR balanced around a 50% win rate that would functionally be 40% or 45% against a group where all 4 survivors tried and unfair and frustrating to the Killers. So, to compensate for survivors killing themselves on hooks BHVR has to aim for an overall kill rate higher than 50% so that a game where all four survivors stick around can have even odds.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244171#Comment_3244171
I guess the analogy could be applied to Nurse. A new player will get stomped by survivors, while he tries to learn her. Which can result in a horrible experience. Now this simply can be prevented to a certain point with the difficulty indicator we currently have for every killer. So a new player wouldn´t attempt to learn Nurse, while still learning the basics.
Clear indicators, tooltips, tutorials and bot modes could certainly help new players to get a grip of how the game works and how to improve.
When i ask to balance the game around top players, i´m not asking to make the game less accessible or harder for new players. I´m just saying that the considered skill ceiling for balance decisions should be higher.
For example, in tournaments killers often hard camp and rely on NOED to get a 2 or maybe 3k. Despite the fact that perks/loadouts are heavily restricted to prevent certain combos. Best action here would be to have official non restricted tournaments where the best players show what is possible when everyone can equip what they want. Then take those matches and balance around them to make the game overall more balanced and fun for everyone.
If your position is that BHVR doesn't include higher skill levels enough I don't really have an opinion on that topic. You could be correct; I don't know and I don't have enough information on it so I'll steadfastly sit on my fence on that issue. The part I care about is making sure new players and intermediate players are also considered and if BHVR can change things to make it more enjoyable for the top without sacrificing the other player ranges that sounds like a good thing.
I'm definitely not opposed to any changes that enhance the player experience in a net positive; the reason why balancing for the top talk makes me nervous is because I've seen balancing around only the top leads to unenjoyable, dead games more often than not. If a change can be made that enhances the overall gaming experience be it at the bottom, middle or top I consider that a great thing as long as all ranges remain enjoyable to play.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243810#Comment_3243810
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243820#Comment_3243820
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243953#Comment_3243953
But why? You all state that it would make the game less appealing for new players. But you don´t explain why.
Balancing around top players makes sense, because even a potatoe player will eventually get better. While good players can´t beat the balancing thats set up around bad players.
Imagine for a second, that the 15% higher escape rate of SWF would instead be a 15% higher kill rate of a killer. So instead of 60% of the top killer, he´d have a 75% kill rate. There would be a massive outcry of the community. Demanding (rightfully) the immediate nerf of said killer. But for SWF thats ok. Sounds weird, doesn´t it?
I'd look at VHS for an example. There's no doubt that the top skilled Monster players has a good chance to beat the top skilled Teen player teams. However, the skill floor for Monster is higher than the skill floor for Teen so, while in theory, everyone could improve to that point people weren't willing to spend dozens of games getting losses so they could stand a chance. They just stopped playing. I brought it up during beta as I pointed out, in my first 20 games played concurrently at each side, I had six times as many wins on Teen as I had on Monster and a new player isn't going to stick around for 40 to 50 games to win 5 of them (as an example with Monster).
It can be different in a symmetrical game as characters will have similar characteristics and might just have minor variances or even the same abilities reskinned (eg. The Old Republic or WoW pvp). However, by definition, an asymmetrical game has to have wildly varying characteristics as it's multiple people versus a smaller number of people. The more variation in abilities from one player the less individual success is determined by each player's abilities and level of experience (eg. camping and tunneling is definitely counterable but the skill floor for countering tunneling and camping is higher than the skill floor to do it so newbie Killers crush newbie survivors with it but then struggle in higher MMRs since they haven't developed chase skills or timing as to when to tunnel and camp since they just crushed newbies previously).
In practicality, since people are playing games to have fun they won't nor should they play if they can't have fun because a skill floor or game mechanic hinders their success to the point they don't have fun on the chance they might have fun later. A very few people will continue but most will just stop playing and that would kill the player base. Unless the game can be popular enough and competitive enough that it can become a spectator sport balancing around the top would leave the game with a tiny playerbase and possibly not even enough money to run the servers in the long run. To succeed as a game where you want participation you have to consider all skill levels.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3242996#Comment_3242996
Why is this absurd?
Every single competitive multiplayer game gets balanced around the top players. Not the bottom ones.
According to the official stats, SC is the most used survivor perk. Do you really want to balance the game around players self caring in the corner of the map?
The point you're not considering is that games are balanced around all players; not just one extreme or the other if they want to succeed. With a very few exceptions balancing a game around a small group of players on either side kills player retention.
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@Eelanos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243176#Comment_3243176
Isn't this the exact opposite side of the problem, though? It wouldn't be the first time I lost a match because everyone wanted to "actually play the match" and no one wanted to "just hold m1".
In fact, many of my most frustrating games come from matches where the 3 other survivors chase the killer to play hero and show off and I'm the only one "not playing the match".
Also, stealth is a very legitimate strategy. In solo queue I've lost many games, and won many games on my Killer games, simply because the survivors wanted to swarm the hook and/or mess with the Killer. Playing overly cautious can result in a 4K but I see more 4Ks from playing recklessly than cautiously.
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@Lobos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241609#Comment_3241609
He is streaming right now and at 239 wins with 394 Moris in the streak as I'm writing this. And still going!
Wow, that's a lot.
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@Zeidoktor said:
A thought occurs to me, it's it possible the devs aimed for 60% instead of 50% on order to account for those hook suicide and lower skilled players?
If those factors are going to inflate the numbers, then it would make sense to aim for a number higher then actually desired to account for them.
It's more the hook suicides in my opinion. Survivors doing that means the devs have to shoot for a higher than 50% kill rate to be fair to Killers. Otherwise, the game would be unbalanced in favour of survivors in a game where 4 people stuck around.
So, once again, selfish people stop the rest of us from getting nice things
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@Rovend said:
i dont know, i truly hate getting matched against nurse, but i would still play the game normally unhooking and everything.
I still have hope that someone of my random teammates can actually loop her for more than 15-20 sec because i cant.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243199#Comment_3243199
i dont know how nurse can possibly have that 52% kill rate, every single game i have played against nurse in the past 4-5 month have always ended with 4k (Mainly because i play SoloQ only and for some reason every single nurse player i get has like 3k-4k hours minimum and plays like they were in dbd World Cup).
The only explanation i can think of that low of kill rate if because people can get so frustrated playing against her that they DC and make that matches not count in the total stats.
Out of curiosity, do you play Nurse? The reason why I'm asking is because I semi-regularly play Nurse because the only way to learn Nurse's chase mechanics is to versus her a lot (which is out of my control) or play her (which is in my control).
I play about four or five games with her a week and I find it helps me a lot because a survivor will do something to mess me up and then I learn what to do or the survivor will do something that makes it easy for me (and then I know what not to do).
It helped me so I'm just offering a suggestion since it might help you.
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@solidhex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241969#Comment_3241969
Are you serious? Knightlight is a competitive player and ETERNAL is one of the best teams in the world, they won an insane amount of tournaments. This was a tournament game with tournament rules, which means it's like a completely different game (every perk only once, lots of perks generally banned, only brown items or yellows, only specific add ons, map is set for every killer). They play with clock callouts to navigate which 99% of the swf's you will encounter never do.
Btw i played against this guy in a tournament and tunneled the ######### outta him, could be a 3k but was only a 2k because i sucked. They're not unbeatable under tournament rules. This video doesn't prove anything.
From my own experience as killer with nearly 4k hours, SWF is only unbeatable when everything comes together (busted items, busted perk combinations x4, surv sided map). The rest of the time there is much luck and decision making involved, for example who you chase first (the worst or the best looper, the guy with Prove who can't do gens now or the guy with DS?).
Also don't expect to win while playing "fair". Not saying it's fun or fair for the survivor but getting someone out of the game quickly is "comp standard" and the most efficient way to play the game, while going for spreading hook stages will often not net you kills. Doesn't mean that's bad though, i'm way past the mindset were i need to 4k every game to be satisfied, because i know i'm better than most players and i know that it means absolutely nothing when i get bodied by some tryhard SWF with 4 toolboxes, 2x prove and 4x DH.
I might be misremembering who it was but didn't you argue for nerfing Nurse using the same arguments the OP is using for nerfing SWFs?
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The corollary to this is when you're being tunneled and the person who happens to be on a gen in the strongest loop just crouch walks around the gen while the Killer steadfastly ignores them. It's like My friend in the Entity I'm being tunneled. The Killer doesn't want you. If you don't want to help me not get tunneled, GTFO and go do a different gen or complete the gen you're on. The Killer is ignoring you so let me buy you time so there can be at least a 3E after I go down.
To follow up on that Survivors who don't realize they don't need to swarm a gen. You don't need to do a gen in front of the Killer to prove your dominance or feed your ego; unless it's to break a 3 gen go find another gen or wait for the Killer to leave and then come back
Also, survivors that crouch walk by a hook while they aren't in a TR and, as seen from the HUD, the Killer has just injured another survivor. The Killer is obviously not nearby. Just go for the rescue.
Survivors that don't realize that if somebody second stages their chances of escaping also diminished greatly in most circumstances. As well, survivors that are scared to take a hit or hook when strategically wise to do so. Everyone on death hook running out the gate is still a 4E; if someone dies super early and the gens don't get done your next hook kills you regardless if it's the first hook or the third.
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@brewingtea said:
>Of course there are scenarios where it makes sense, such as the killer is clearly distracted and un-hooker has We'll Make It.
You're complaining that solo q players don't know when the killer is distracted or what perks his teammates have?
Because you know that lack of info isn't their fault, right?
You remember that, right?
There's literally an icon on your screen if the unhooker has We'll Make It. As well, if a survivor who is not in sight gets injured or goes to the dying state you're pretty safe in assuming the Killer is chasing the other survivor
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@JFF said:
I still don't understand why devs haven't made an official statement regarding Nurse, are they happy with her current state? Are they going to rework her or adjust the addons? Instead we have here a never ending battle between people, who religiously play and defend her on every single topic with a word nurse in it. And then we have people, who believe she's just not healthy for the game.
IMO Nurse is a balancing hell in general. Each new map they create, must be adjusted just for nurse, so she's able to blink without glitching. Every new decent perk makes her even more unpleasant to go against. She basically creates a lose-lose scenario. Majority of survivors dislike going against her, because she ignores every core defense mechanic (Pallets and windows) that is given to survivor. Daily arguments about her balance state are just tiring.
The devs aren't doing anything about Nurse because there is either no reason to or any issues with her are minor enough that there are more pressing priorities.
BHVR has access to a lot of data. Pre 6.1 DH was nerfed was mentioned because after hit validation it gave a disproportionately large advantage to the survivor and was unbalancing. Old Ruin from way back was nerfed as it gave a disproportionately large advantage to the Killer and was unbalancing.
Nurse isn't being touched currently because playing Nurse either doesn't give a disproportionate advantage, the advantages are so small that there is no reason for them to take precedence over more important issues, or any disproportionate advantage hasn't been seen yet.
When you examine the Nerf Nurse! threads you see a lot of let's balance Nurse on SupaAlf and no let's balance survivors around Hens or the hardcore survivor teams. That's self-serving. If it's okay to balance Nurse around SupaAlf it's also okay to balance survivors around Hens and his SWF death squad.
BHVR doesn't do that because it would be unfair to their players and they're cognizant of that. BHVR does take a lot of flak but quite a bit of it is unjustified in my opinion as they've shown they consider the fun of all players and consider multiple factors in their decisions.
What would giving a verbal statement do though? The people who obsessively hate Nurse would still complain and BHVR already showed with their Kill Rates there's a lot more nuanced take to things than the forums take into account. So, they kind of did give a statement but not directly. If Nurse doesn't have a disproportionate success rate for at least over 95% of MMR ranges where exactly is the problem?
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It's conditional. Is the Killer occupied or otherwise showing they don't return to the hook? If so, it saves a few seconds you can put on gens.
If the unhooker has We'll Make It and you're not in the TR of a normal TR Killer the heal should be done before the Killer makes it back. If you're running anti-tunneling perks, it was your first hook, and you can run the Killer longer than your teammates you might want the Killer to target you if you can get a heal before the Killer comes back.
If the Killer is returning to the hook generally go somewhere else but if the Killer has just injured someone else who's not in sight you know the Killer is in a chase and would have to abandon that chase to go for you.
In short, it depends on the circumstances. If you go too far from the hook though you're just wasting time.
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@Laluzi said:
I remember once vs a Hag, I was creeping towards an unhook, and this absolute derpnugget of a teammate comes barreling past me, intent on beating me to the rescue for those sweet unhook points. Trap goes off. NOED goes off (or maybe Devour, can't remember which.) 3 people hit the floor. Hope it was worth it, buddy.
Trapper I can forgive if there's a lot of grass, but sometimes he gets away with traps that are actual crimes against intelligence. The threshold where I get mad is when the same person falls for the same trap more than once.
Trapper is so funny. There have been so many times when I played Trapper as Killer and somebody tbags me and goes for a strong tile. At this point I'm thinking 'yes, it's a strong tile. I would run that tile if I were playing survivor right now. That's why I trapped it at the very beginning of the game'.
I find the people who BM Trapper because it's Trapper generally ragequit as soon as they get caught in a trap at a strong loop.
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Other than Doctor I don't see any Killer that could stall out the game in a punishable manner. Every other Killer would have to hit the survivor to stop gen progress and hooked or bled out the game is still progressing.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240939#Comment_3240939
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3239396#Comment_3239396
You obviously missed the one where I said I wasn't being serious. I was being jovial and poking fun.
I did miss it, sorry
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@Kosturko92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241479#Comment_3241479
That is the problem, they are balancing game around BAD survivors, that is a huge issue, that's why when you move past lower ranks as a killer, you don't want to play game anymore.
No, they're balancing the game to ensure that they consider all levels. Balancing exclusively at the top only works for spectator sports and DbD is not that.
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@Edilibs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241709#Comment_3241709
Yeah this is one of my builds with Lithe and with my main survivor!
That's cool; I switch to a more serious build at Iri grades to pip up earlier but I run that a lot as well.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240939#Comment_3240939
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3239396#Comment_3239396
You obviously missed the one where I said I wasn't being serious. I was being jovial and poking fun.
I did miss it, sorry
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@Eelanos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241664#Comment_3241664
Hm... I'm just spitballing, but there could be some ways like, if the match stays in a 3 gen for a couple of minutes, the furthest generator can be overcharged. Essentially, an already repaired generator can be repaired again.
Both the killer and the survivors will get a notification when this happen, pointing at the generator that can be overcharged (probably something like a loud noise notification or a hooked survivor ring).
This will essentially remove the annoying situation where survivors' only option in a 3 gen is just to throw their corpses at the killer and hope for the best while still providing some extra time for the killer if survivors were clumsy enough to 3 gen themselves.
It would be a similar concept to the end game collapse, where you cannot simply do nothing and still extend the duration of the game indefinitely.
If a 3 gen is more than an occasional nuisance a survivor can always bring Deja Vu, a decent toolbox and decent add ons. Do the gen in the middle at the beginning of the game (or as soon as the Killer is in their first chase) and the 3 gen is broken. If the Killer outplays the survivors on the strategic level the survivors don't need a do over.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the UB basekit a bundle package with the Last Man Standing mori? In that case, Killers get a win condition if all survivors are down.
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Wiretap, Blast Mine, Residual Manifest. If the gen isn't kicked we see the Killer's Aura. If the gen is kicked, the Killer can't see auras for 30 seconds.
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I think it could inadvertently lead to more early tunneling and camping unless low mobility Killers got mobility buffs which would lead to the same situation we have now but with a bit more spacing. Or perhaps just more gen slowdown stacking. Low mobility Killers have very few options for map pressure so removing one would increase reliance on the others.
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@PPRG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241568#Comment_3241568
Too be fair he does sound whiny however usually when you see those kind of kill streaks on killers they also have 20,000 hours on the game let alone how many hours on that killer exactly
And you can find these on most killers onepumpwillie is pushing a 200+ winstreak on sadako last i checked but once again these people put thousands of hours on these killers and dbd as a whole
Onepumpwillie got bodied by Hens. Is the 200+ win streak after that? I'm curious; I honestly don't know the timing.
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Why do you say Blight needs a nerf?
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240947#Comment_3240947
Just because one person isn't considering other people's feelings, doesn't mean they are the only one to do so.
Are you arguing that people shouldn't play a specific Killer because someone might not like that Killer? If so, does the same logic apply to toolboxes, medkits, flashlights and Survivor perks?
My position is that people are free to play the game as intended by BHVR and by hitting the Ready button you are agreeing to play the game as intended. If you want specific restrictions there are custom matches. As long as no game rules are being broken and there are no exploits I do not get to say how other people play nor do they get to say how I play.
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I think it's just a case of people not understanding how her power works. Now that the mechanics of this strategy are becoming more well known it'll probably become less effective. Right now a CoH is a huge impediment to the entire strategy if people just self heal. If basekit Unbreakable makes it to live, the strategy is dead in the water.
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I'm hoping Twins and I'll insert my constant, shameless plug for solo queue status icons here.
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@Lima24927 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241482#Comment_3241482
Not interested in teaching you anything, you can create a thread or search youtube videos, i guess all the 500 teams that faced Supaalf aren't aware of your unique, brilliant, genius idea of how to fool a 1000+ hours nurse player, let's just make the nurses over shoot the teleport !! easy !!
Okay, so you don't know because you don't understand Nurse's mechanics.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241482#Comment_3241482
*Grabs popcorn waiting for the response excited how deep the hole will be dug this time*
Pretty much. What makes this completely ironic is that the response came in while I was posting an argument against someone stating that Survivors are OP and can get huge win streaks. My argument was, wait for it, balancing around the top outliers would be unfair to the majority of the playerbase. I'm sure all of the people here stating that Nurse should be balanced around the top will be rushing to defend the OP in the other thread and stating that Survivors should also be balanced around the top level SWFs.
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Okay, explain to me how the Nurse can avoid overshooting or blinking to the bottom level then in that scenario.
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@Kosturko92 said:
Avrg kill rate is not the measuerment they should be using. Because people at low ranks die a lot, solo quee dies a lot. A SWF team at high mmr that wants to win cannot lose.
Make a tournament:
Random map, best of 5.
Killer 3 kills + hatch or 1 escape = Win
Survivors 3 escapes = Win
2 kills 2 escape = Tie
Make this and you will see how unbalanced this game is. DBD should balance the game around top mmr, then everyone will eventually have fun, right now no one is having fun.
No, the developers should not balance Survivors or Killers around the top. That would kill the game. If you can't adapt to OTR being usable after Deliverance that is 100% a you issue. The overall escape rates are about where they should be and any lowering of the escape rates would be unfair to the other players.
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@PlaysByShady said:
I've not read through the last 5 pages so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but let's try to understand what OP is saying by reversing the scenario.
What OP is suggesting, is that someone who's spent most of their 7,200 hours in-game on a specific single character should NOT be able to consistently do well with that character when faced with players who are not playing to the same level of dedication!
That's it, right?
They want an expert in something to not perform like an expert.
Get outta here!!
That's a good summary of the OP's argument.
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If you don't understand why charging a Nurse after she has wound up her blink on the second story of a map is a counterplay you're showing you don't understand her mechanics. She can't undo her wind-up so her only option is to overshoot or, if she points down, blink to the lower level. If you don't understand her mechanics that could be causing you to overestimate Nurse's capabilities.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240695#Comment_3240695
Yikes.
"their desire to make the game easier for themselves does not constitute a balancing imperative"
-Signed, person defending nurse.
Keep moving those goal posts, and using the stats which have been proven to not apply to nurse very well as your only argument.
It is hilarious, though. You say yourself that your MMR isn't very high, and yet seem intent on telling people who actually deal with the issue of Nurse that they should learn to play, and they just don't want to deal with a different style killer (such a lazy, lazy argument).
I'm not moving my goal posts. You haven't explained why Nurse should be nerfed over incredibly good Nurses that constitute a tiny fraction of the database. I doubt you're facing SupaAlf's continuously in your random games so the only conclusion to draw is that you want Nurse nerfed for your own personal benefit either at a competition level or you just can't run Nurse; either/or or both. Your problems have to be weighed against the majority of the playerbase and Nurse doesn't have outlandish performance for the majority of the playerbase.
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@Nihlus said:
The point is that no one would BEHAVE this way in person, or they wouldn't be in the game in the first place. See, you get away with being a toxic because the matchmaking is random. If you could be blocked for beign toxic, queue times would be insanely long as most of this community would only be playing with the other toxic people. I'll give you a hint, it isn't the people DC'ing.
If your friend plays in a way that's horrible for everyone else in the game. He's not getting invited to play anymore. Period.
Sort of like how nobody would play with ragequitters if they had a choice? Is that what you're referring to?
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@drsoontm said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240883#Comment_3240883
The problem of VHS isn't even the balance. It's that playing monster, win or lose, is not fun at all and pretty exhausting.
That and that habit they had to ban testers who were voicing concerns.
Of course, now, any kind of MMR is impossible as there is only a handful of players remaining. I doubt the game will ever recover.
That is true but it was exaggerated by the priority of acheiving balance at the top while ignoring the problems with and input given about the new player experience.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3239801#Comment_3239801
That's quite a way of dancing around the issue. Nurse isn't OP, its just her add-ons and perk synergies (that there is 0 incentive not to bring your best every match, and might as well be assumed in most cases) that are OP. You also forgot to mention that Nurse not being OP in that video was met with a heavy asterisk that qualified (my shortening and rephrasing ->) "make maps not garbo". Essentially all maps need equal levels of LOS blockers such as Garden of Joy, where the 2nd blink isn't essentially a guaranteed hit. It requires a read of the Survivor instead of a paint by numbers go to last seen spot, 2nd blink and swing on them. That vid basically said Haddonfield is unplayable against Nurse, and all 4 changes were still nerfs in that video. That is being compared to say Trapper's 4 buffs, Bubba's mix of buffs and nerfs (mostly buffs), and most other Killer's problem areas being nerfed but otherwise being net buffed.
I accounted for the alternative DCs and how they can easily be broken down into the 'why'. You may experience more DCs with tunneling/camping/bad cereal days from Survivors than others, but can you honestly say that any other Killer has as great of a DC on the first identifying information coming into clarity? Can you honestly say that people DC more against the Onryo black circle on Survivor portraits, or the Demogorgon Shred noise, or the Oni Blood noise, or a Plague fountain, or a Jigsaw Box, or any other unique identifier tied to a specific Killer?
In more situations than not, the person not considering other's feelings is the Nurse selecting Killer. A DC against a Nurse theoretically ends the match sooner. Someone picking Nurse, on average, would want a free/easy win, and someone wanting to not go against Nurse, on average, would want the match over with sooner. As twisted as it seems, it often can result in a greater net positive outcome as everyone's goals are simultaneously being advanced. It is the wrong way of going about it, and I cannot endorse the DC in any aspect, but it still fast tracks both sides' goals. It is a rare case of something bad having a net positive result. We should structure the system so this isn't possible, so only good things have positive results, instead of bad things having even the fringe potential for positive results.
That is why I offered the Killer ban system, so people who are fine with going against Nurse can simply not ban her. It is a problem that largely fixes itself with Killer bans. I don't believe I mentioned the other aspect, but there would also be an additional BP incentive for the least banned killers, and this would include variety bans. This would give the bottom 40% lowest banned Killers a 25% variety bonus, with an extra 25% more for the bottom 20%, for a total of 50%. This would help balance Killer pick rates, and if there were reasons for lower pick rates then there would be more eyes on why they aren't picked. This way the Killers no one wants to play get selected for the variety bonus, then the players comment "hey this makes this Killer feel bad, that's why no one picks them". Ideally then these issues would be fixed due to greater visibility.
The person who is not considering other people's feelings is the DCer. You can go as irrational as you want with your justifications but Nurse is part of the game; ragequitting is not and that's why it has a penalty associated with it.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240434#Comment_3240434
Let me use league as example. Riot has maintained the largest online game ever for so long because of their bi monthly update. With that said, characters that are extremely abusable in high elo are balanced around and people in lower elo's will naturally play them less and that's fine. Some basic character's can never be good in high elo unless they are so broken in low elo it's a pick or ban champion. Obviously decent amount of champs are played in both, but there is also 160 with varying kits that can fit in both. So in dbd blight and nurse would be balanced around high mmr while pig and bubba are balanced around low mmr. That is completely fine for devs to balance this way. But it's also risky due to the fact that "top 5% mmr" doesn't factor in them going against whatever the game decides to give them. Like does it really matter if baby nurses do even worse? They will either power through and get up her skill floor or they will give up and that's fine they can play a different character. Even as a Blight main you don't allow the top to be so utterly game breaking. You rework nurse as her design has long since lossed a place in this game and you nerf blight's top 2 or 3 add-ons. But on the flip side survivor's would have to get their game breaking stuff nerfed as well.
Let's take a look at VHS and look at what balancing around the top did for those player numbers for a more similar comparison.
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@Lima24927 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240792#Comment_3240792
this is the 3rd time you say the same thing, probably running out of jokes, are you ? use google maybe you find something new to say, its too easy to proof you are wrong, you are just boring.
Okay, go ahead and prove that the Kill rates for Nurse are disproportionately out of line at all MMRs.
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The top 5% of MMR isn't invalid (and the Nurses in that MMR aren't new either) and neither is the playing experience of new players. Players in all MMR ranges need to be considered; not individuals.
Also, if we're going to balance Nurse around SupaAlf why can't we balance survivors around Hens? The reason is it wouldn't be fair but you can't say it's okay in this situation since it benefits me but it's not okay in this situation because it would hurt me.
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@Nos37 said:
No one's having fun as survivor. Why do you think it CONSTANTLY has the 100% BP Queue bonus?? No one's queueing as survivor.
Why do you think survivors start giving up on hook as soon as the DC penalty's re-enabled? Instant survivor queue. Why stick around in a bad match when they can simply and quickly go next?
It's not a constant bonus. I've seen Killer later on at night. It's also a fallacy to state that since a Killer bonus would only kick in if less than 20% of the players are playing Killers. If less than 1 in 5 people are queuing for a specific role for more than a few hours at a time there's a huge problem magnified by the fact that advertising for the game doesn't rely on Quentin for example but rather Freddy for the Nightmare on Elm Street chapter.
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@Lima24927 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240715#Comment_3240715
where is your evidence ? you dont have any, invalid.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240716#Comment_3240716
i guess you are a bit confused about this thread, this is about nurse not SWF, move on.
I do. BHVR recently released Kill Rates. I've referred to it, and so have you, multiple times.
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@Lima24927 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240702#Comment_3240702
you don't have any evidence... as each killer have different learning curves, and new players will drag the nurse numbers down by a lot, the nurse is the worst killer for new players, as it has a very high skill ceiling, while sadako is a hundred times easier in comparison, and got the highest kill rates, so your evidence shows that sadako is the best killer on DBD ? because thats what you are saying.. lol !!!
No, I'm saying the evidence shows that Nurse is not an issue for the majority of the playerbase; not which Killer is stronger.
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@Lima24927 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240678#Comment_3240678
(Latin: argumentum ad Ignorantiam) The attempt to argue for or against a proposition or position because there is a lack of evidence against or for it: I argue X because there is no evidence showing not-X.
basically you are asking for something impossible, i am not BHVR, im not a company , i cannot produce factual evidence, i can however play the game, test the killers and survivors, and listen to 10 + extremely professional and experienced game specialists that have a combined 20.000 hours of gameplay and that can describe how some killers are either too strong not strong.
there is no way to show your desired "evidence", BHVR kill rates shows that sadako is top on kill rates, is this true when you consider players with any 500 hours of experience ? nope !
One part is correct. You cannot provide any factual evidence. That makes your position on Nurse an opinion.
I can provide factual evidence that Nurse is not an issue for the majority of the playerbase which is why my argument is not what you described above.
This is done with the caveat that the Kill rates as released are not the full picture but we are unaware of any factors that would change it.
Your opinion that Nurse is OP and broken is an opinion with no factual basis. My opinion is that Nurse is not OP and broken for the majority of the player base but I do have evidence backing my position. If there's an issue somewhere BHVR will change it eventually but I'd rather BHVR work on something more important and pressing such as solo queue icons.
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3239607#Comment_3239607
Weird how no one here had anything to say about this.
For myself, it's because my argument is that balancing at the competitive level is harmful to a game and only suitable for spectator sports so how the top 0.1% or less of players perform is vastly outweighed by the other 99.9% of the playerbase.
@zarr does have an interesting suggestion just above but that's because he is aware and trying to think of ways to change Nurse at the top level while maintaining or improving enjoyment for Nurse players for people that aren't at the very top. @zarr is very knowledgeable about game mechanics and keeps the totality of the game in sight so his opinions are usually very interesting.
Most of the Nerf Nurse! threads aren't taking that into account and want to nerf Nurse because her counterplay and chase mechanics are different than the other Killers and they don't want to learn different chase mechanics while ignoring those who like versusing Nurse because her chase mechanics are different.
Considering there seems to be a considerable overlap between the Nerf Nurse! people and the people who defend ragequitting I'm not surprised they're not considering anyone else but themselves but their desire to make the game easier for themselves does not constitute a balancing imperative.
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@Lima24927 said:
every good player is an outlier to you, only streamers are good at nurse, no other players are good at nurse, lol
No, I'm asking you to provide me evidence that Nurse is OP for the majority of players. The only evidence we do have doesn't show it.