TAG
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@Peanits said:
There seems to be a misunderstanding here, by no means is a Killer not supposed to kill. The key is that you need to make sure that both sides always have a chance to win, even if that chance is very slim. To use the pig, as an example, if you got chased for a minute after the End Game started and then trapped, you simple would not have a chance to remove your trap escape by the time you get saved (especially now that the End Game timer is two minutes). You would have to win the lottery and remove your trap on the first box.
If you create a situation where someone has no chance to win, it feels like a waste of time. If you know you're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it, it's going to feel awful. You'll just want to get it over with as fast as possible. The same would go for the Killer side as well. If you were in a scenario where you could not possibly win, you would have a miserable time.
It's a tricky to strike a balance in an asymmetrical game, but it's important to make sure that everyone in the match has a chance up until they win or lose, whether losing is dying or getting sacrificed, or if losing is all the survivors getting out the gates.
"To use the pig, as an example, if you got chased for a minute after the End Game started and then trapped, you simple would not have a chance to remove your trap escape by the time you get saved (especially now that the End Game timer is two minutes). You would have to win the lottery and remove your trap on the first box."
Just pause the EGC timer while someone has a trap on. Ezpz
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@GrootDude said:
@se05239 just use the traps for pressure, that’s what I’ve done.
She isn’t trash tier now.
Until they pressure you into throwing your traps away by popping all the gens. :P
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@se05239 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/445093#Comment_445093
@TAG But the traps are still useless once the final generator has popped.
I know. I was just correcting that person on that.
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@Mithandris said:
They should change the requirements for RBT activation, it has happened to me that a generator is repaired seconds before I put an RBT on a survivor. RBT's could always activate after she put the trap on a survivor, until the last generator is repaired. This could work very well with the changes on how RBT's work inside her TR. So, if she tunnel one survivor, the others will do gen rush and her traps will get useless, or she can hunt other survivors, slow the game a lot and maybe even getting a 4k.
They're reverting the change to timer pausing within the Pig's TR.
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@FeelsVeryBadMan said:
Can you hear that? Listen closely.
Yup, exactly. It's the Forum Mains. They all ready to tell you that Legion is now garbage tier and the worst killer in this entire game. @TreemanXD
Oh yeah?
*ahem*
HILLBILLY.
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@Delfador said:
I really dislike adjusting killers' powers according to their addons.
Pig, imo, needs buffs to her base kit.
90% ms in crouched mode is awful. In order to solve this problem, pigs are forced to use whisperer + monitor and abuse to not lose the map pressure.
Her ambush attack is so useless that pig mains go for the uncrouch rather than using her own power. This is one of the most important reasons why combat straps were really powerful and pig mains wanted them as base kit.
Her ambush attack can be used to get the hits around unsafe pallet but to be honest, other 115% ms killers can get those hits too. It doesn't make safe pallets unsafe as far as I know.
As if these are not enough, her power is based on pure luck. People might come and say, well, the luck might be on your side but I have to disagree. Compared to other killers' powers like billy, hag, spirit, huntress, nurse, even if survivors search all 4 boxes, it doesn't put her in top tier.
Imo, they should solve these issues, make her crouch mode more bearable, ambush attack more useful, and RBTs less RNG dependent.
I mean, yeah, a bad Killer shouldn't be made less bad solely through add-on buffs, but she also just has a LOT of bad add-ons that could stand to be buffed.
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@anarchy753 said:
Agreed on Rusty Attachments, only left it separate since it'd be incorrect to say it doesn't increase the stalling of RBTs or is useless, it's just far less useful than basically any other application of Mangled.
This is a very fair point. I do agree that of the four add-ons that penalize people wearing RBTs, Rusty Attachments is the only one that actually synergizes with the RBTs (even if it does a bad job at it).
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Pig. :(
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Heeeey, someone who also finds every add-on you listed as bad. Though two differences:
1) I used to lump John's Medical File into this, but I was convinced that it was actually not half-bad when used with Video Tape. I still think they could both use tiny buffs to make them both not strictly worse than the same Uncommon add-on (Video Tape).
2) While I think Rusty Attachments is the best of the RBT penalty add-ons, I still would not give it a pass. I'd rather just use Sloppy Butcher.
But yeah, I think just about every single add-on you mentioned here should be buffed in some way (regardless of these upcoming Pig changes).
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@Chaotic_Riddle said:
@TAG He may be referring to the mention that the Devs made during the Q&A stream in which they discussed they might be buffing her dash and lunge if needed.
That's what I thought. So nothing actually guaranteed.
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@Maj33y said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/444502#Comment_444502
I Play Pig a lot and I never had any issues with her . Her lunge attack is Good , and Now she Received a Buff to Her Dash attack so it's Really nothing to whine about .
I know You were being Sarcastic as if i was another Cry baby Survivor who asks to nerf killers .
But to make it Clear I never had any issues with Nurse on PS4 but on PC . Nurse players Blink so Perfectly as if they were linked to you by a magnet .
And Billy only issue is his long Hitboxes . Around corners and through vaults .
Who I pity most are Legion killers . Now using the power is so useless .
"I Play Pig a lot and I never had any issues with her . Her lunge attack is Good , and Now she Received a Buff to Her Dash attack so it's Really nothing to whine about ."
Uh, what? Where does it say she's getting a Dash Buff? The patch notes say nothing about that, and AFAIK, the Q&A did not say they were buffing her Dash Attack.
Pig is weak, and this upcoming change will make her weaker IMO.
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Alright, to anyone who thinks that these changes to the Pig's endgame are good (not for Pig, just in general), answer me this: Why would it not be a better idea to just outright pause the EGC timer as long as someone is wearing an RBT? Not slow it down. Pause it.
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@NoShinyPony said:
Nice to hear that the terror radius mechanic won't make it live. However, it's still an immense nerf that Pig's endgame is dead. If it stays that way, she needs a buff to make up for this.
This. Either do something else to adjust the Pig for endgame or give her a meaningful buff to make up for it.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/442701#Comment_442701
Not quite. That was actually a neat use for it. It's more because the pig can crouch to hide their terror radius and completely avoid it anyway, which defeats the whole purpose of the change. This way you also don't have to worry about brushing past Survivors while chasing someone else and pausing their timer.
Called it.
@SmokePotion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/442810#Comment_442810
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Do you have any idea how bad of a strat you just mentioned is?
Don't get me wrong, thanks for fixing one part of an uneeded nerf. If a wrong path leads you to the right destination, who am I to complain I guess.
But it does show that you guys need to work with higher skilled players when you are making these kinda choices.
Don't think of it as an abusable strategy so much as an abusable griefing method.
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@Bug_Reporter said:
Meh, i open a serious discussion on how to improve the game and ppl think its a troll post ahahahaha!
It's because your idea reads like a troll post meant to attract people baffled by the idea and get a rise out of them.
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I may find Adrenaline annoying, but I see no issue with it starting when the Hatch closes. If anything, I think NOED is the one that shouldn't activate when the Hatch is closed since the point of that is that it's a catch-up mechanic, not a "catch-up as well as dominate when ahead" mechanic. If Adrenaline doesn't activate when the Hatch closes, neither should NOED (though I'm not even sure NOED should even activate when the Hatch closes anyways, regardless of what happens to Adrenaline).
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My thing about the RBTs for the EGC is that whatever changes made to them should be mostly relevant, if not only relevant, when there's one Survivor left because that is primarily where I think the issue lies. I don't really think much needs to be done when there's multiple Survivors left beyond just making the EGC death timer slower when someone is wearing a trap. I also think that while taking the trap off should be easier for that last person, it shouldn't be all but guaranteed; there needs to still be some chance that the Survivor will struggle a bit.
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@Mat_Sella said:
This is exactly why killer's should not see the progress of their powers, ala Plague, Legion. Give them stronger, healthier options to kill, not ones that encourage tunneling (even more).
I still don't actually believe that the Pig seeing the death timer would promote tunneling (if the change to the timer pause did not exist; with the balance change in the PTB, it totally would). That's sorta off-topic-ish, but eh.
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@pandorayr said:
here is a total rejection for the community about the changes the Pig, enough reasons to don't change nothing for now
To be fair, a few posts in a thread is hardly "the community."
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Some additional thoughts of mine: The Pig nerf has made it so that all traps that have not been used by the time the last Generator is finished are useless. Therefore, the best strategy against the Pig, who is supposed to be a Killer that is good at slowing down the game, is to go hardcore Gen Rush because the faster you power the Exit Gates, the more traps that will be made useless because they are still in the Pig's inventory.
Agree? Disagree?
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Bait thread
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@ClogWench said:
Can't wait to play as the black clad, knife wielding, mask wearing killer...oh wait.
Ah, but this one is sponsored by T-Mobile!
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@pandorayr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/440607#Comment_440607
The pig changes only
Sorry, I wasn't clear with what I meant. With "Changes in general for the EGC," I was referring to the idea that Pig needed some change to prevent her from being overwhelming during the EGC.
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@TatsuiChiyo said:
I can't play PTB so obviously my opinion doesn't mean much, but I do think most of Pig's changes make logical sense.
EGC was primarily made to end games being taken hostage. Now is there not only a time limit to leave, they are even letting the Killer start the countdown. And while I feel it would only add to the tension to have a RBT to deal with, I understand why BHVR doesn't want to force Survivors to have to stay in what could become an unwinnable situation. Everyone could end up playing Piggy, Survivors would DC, I understand the decision.
What I don't understand is why the timer stops just because they are in my TR? RBTs only activate if a gen is repaired while you have it on, which is either the Survivors fault or the fault of another Survivor. And it's not like the timer keeps ticking if you down and/or hooks a Survivor. But with this new TR change, it feels like what was once a punishment on the Survivors is now also a punishment on Piggy. What I mean is that for RBT to count down, Piggy has to either roll the dice and hope the trapped Survivor doesn't get the correct boxes, or crouch and move at half speed (If that even works).
Again, I can't play PTB, so maybe it's not as bad as I'm thinking, but that TR timer change to me seems like a completely random and unnecessary nerf to a Killer who could have gained a surge in popularity and brought some change to the game.
The logic that something needed to be done for the EGC to prevent Pig from being too much is certainly reasonable. The solution being to effectively take away all RBTs she hasn't used when the last change is finished is not reasonable at all IMO.
(Note that I say this also being unable to play the PTB)
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Changes in general for the EGC? Not sure, but possibly.
These changes specifically? No, and I am against them.
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Count me in as a Pig main dissatisfied with these changes.
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@My_Dude said:
And if you both find the hatch at the same time due to a chase?
What then?
What if you are in the middle of a chase, and the last survivor dies and the hatch just pops right infront of both you as you down them?
Close it before they get to it? It could just as easily open behind you when you're closer to it than the Survivor.
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@rha said:
I don’t hate it because I don’t keep my traps for endgame. Don’t get why 150% of all Pig players are suddenly playing end game Pig. In days where everyone is complaining about gens getting done too fast it’s strange to see this many people who can’t wait for survivors to get the gens done so they can finally start playing.
Plus, my favourite aspect of the Pig is still her ambush attack to outplay survivors in chases. Much more fun and more interactive than RBTs that you just put on and then let them go to get them off at some box. And that ambush has just been buffed earlier this year, which changed way more for Pig play than the current PTB changes.
It's not even about dedicated Endgame builds. You no longer have the option to hold on to any number of traps for the Endgame. If the game goes quickly before you can make much use of them, they just rot. It's basically a glorified way of saying "The Pig loses all unused Reverse Bear Traps when the Generators are powered (or when the Hatch is closed, but that is not as relevant)." It means Pig has virtually no Killer power during the Endgame because the Ambush certainly isn't going to do much during that point. It's often a good idea to hold a Trap or maybe two during for the Endgame to be able to continue slowing down the game even at the end, which is when a Killer would have the hardest time.
All this, plus another nerf that is actually a buff for griefers.
On a more personal note, I find the RBTs much more fun as a Pig than an Ambush that is better used by uncrouching than by actually attacking with it.
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Thing is that I don't really like the idea of the RBT being made useless (though that's just a personal opinion more than anything). I prefer making it much easier for that Survivor to get it off over making it as though they're not wearing the trap at all.
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As far as point 1, what do you think would be a good way to remedy the issues you are bringing up?
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I know a lot of people have suggested making the EGC timer slow down as long as a Survivor is wearing an RBT, and while I think that fixes the problem for EGC involving more than one person, I do think there would still be an issue with EGC happening after there's only one Survivor left (when the Pig closes the Hatch). I put out a bunch of ideas for Pig buffs (and nerfs) a while back, and I do think one in particular would be relevant: "As long as there's only one Survivor left, they should make it so a) it only takes half as long to search through a Jigsaw Box b) Good Skill Checks count as Great Skill Checks when searching through a Jigsaw Box." I initially had this balance idea lumped together with a Pig buff that would make the RBTs snap if someone tried to jump into the Hatch while wearing one, but I think it could work here as well to make sure the Survivor can get their trap off quickly. With that, plus slowing down the EGC timer while someone is wearing a RBT, I do think that the traps would be much more manageable without compromising the Pig entirely.
Oh, and I still think the change to the TR is going to backfire.
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I believe OP means the specific idea of using the timer pause to find a Survivor and then crouch tunneling to chase a survivor with an RBT while the RBT timer still counts down because 0 terror radius = timer does not pause.
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@LilBit said:
They put on the stop timer thing so it deters the piggie from chasing survivors from jigsaw box to jigsaw box or downing them while using the jigsaw box.
Honestly when I played piggie I was unsure most of the time of when the timer actually started on a bear trap. I thought it already started when a gen finished. But I have been in games and seen the timer start in different ways so I wasn't sure.
I knew they were going to nerf her a bit due to the end game. Was just hoping it wasn't major.
"They put on the stop timer thing so it deters the piggie from chasing survivors from jigsaw box to jigsaw box or downing them while using the jigsaw box."
Assuming the actual gameplay reflects the patch notes properly, it actually incentivizes crouching to run down the clock because Pig having 0 Terror Radius will mean she will never cause the timer to pause.
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@powerbats said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/438773#Comment_438773
While I understand that with the new end game collapse it had to be changed since otherwise she could just ensure they died. The one change they could make it that they apply the blindness effect or say the exhausted effect for 60 seconds.
I accept that it probably could not be left as was, but I think (again, can't test it myself due to PS4, so I freely admit I could be wrong) that the changes to her endgame go well beyond preventing her from being too problematic during the Endgame Collapse and instead just makes her bad during that point. I think something else has to change in her favor if this is going to stay.
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@Huntar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/437106#Comment_437106
Why not just increase the chance of the first box rewarding a key? Make it so the first box has, say, a 75% chance of rewarding a key, with a +5% chance with each further box. As always, the last box would have 100% chance.
This would make it so they have a chance to escape, while not completely ruining the Pig's entire end-game pressure.
That's not how the boxes work. You don't have X% chance of finding a key in a box. One box is the correct one, and all other ones are wrong.
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To do what? Tunnel the Survivor with the RBT? How is that a good idea?
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@GhostrickSpecter said:
That means you have to use the RBT right before the last gen had finished, that's it :3
Somebody: Her RBT is useless now cuz it doesn't click when the Survivors within her TR...
Me: Ever heard of Pig's crouch?
That's a bad strategy that's only really going to be useful for griefing, IMO. Three people bumrush the gens while the fourth is basically screwed.
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@ClogWench said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/438415#Comment_438415
I'm aware of all that. I'm trying to say that she wasn't exclusively endgame oriented. Her abilities are solid at stopping the endgame from coming. Yeah this patch was an unnecessary nerf to her, and I think she should get some form of compensation buff at least, but I think it's a bit of an overreaction to say she's the worst now.
Ehhh, I'm gonna have to disagree with that. I think they CAN be useful at stalling the endgame, but I think that's kind of a crapshoot at best (and now made worse with the timers pausing within the Terror Radius). Sometimes you just get crap RNG and don't do anything meaningful in stalling, which just means lose the gens faster and you risk losing unused traps. Absolute worst in the game? Not so sure about that. Bottom tier? I could see a case being made for that now.
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@Bithard said:
What have they changed?
1) Traps now only become active when a Generator is finished; they no longer automatically become active once all the gens are finished.
2) Traps no longer automatically kill the Survivor when they cross through the Exit Gate unless the timer is active.
3) Timers now pause when within the Pig's Terror Radius (in addition to while being downed or on a hook) instead of while in a chase.
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@ClogWench said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/438368#Comment_438368
See the difference is that she puts on a lot more time pressure than Legion does, while also having a stealth ability that can really help shorten chases if used well. She's also not so drastically punished for using her power. I agree she lost a lot of endgame potential but I don't think it hurts her quite as much as people are acting.
I'm saying this as someone who can't play the PTB, so all I have to go on is just my thoughts, but I think she lost nearly all of her Endgame potential. Her Ambush is not helpful during the Endgame, and with her Traps being neutered, she's basically stuck as an M1 killer with effectively no power during the Endgame. I think that's probably when she was at her best (and she wasn't really great otherwise), so I think it does hurt her significantly.
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@MistressChara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/438311#Comment_438311
Ahh right, can't believe I forgot that the EGC dosen't activate when the gates are closed.
Edit: Actually couldn't you just open them yourself?
As I said before: "Even if the Pig opens the Gate herself, that's still plenty of time for the Survivor with the trap to get it off and leave through the now-open Gate."
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I think both changes are bad. The first one to me is a "We don't mind throwing this particular Killer under the bus so we can push our update through" change. The second one is a "This will have the opposite effect we think it will have" change.
I also don't understand your idea of the first change being a slight buff. It means Survivors have a way to render her Traps 100% useless by just finishing the last generator. If someone has a trap on when there's only one gen left, they can just focus on getting the traps off and then doing the last Gen. Even if they just do the last Gen anyways, the Endgame doesn't start until the Gate is open, so Survivors can sti give the Pig the runaround until the Trap is off knowing that any Traps the Pig puts on by this point are dead. Even if the Pig opens the Gate herself, that's still plenty of time for the Survivor with the trap to get it off and leave through the now-open Gate.
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What we need is for the Terror Radius change to be reverted, not for the Pig to be made even worse.
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One thing I'm wondering is if it would be a buff for the Doc if Snapping Out Of It completely emptied out a Survivor's Madness. It would mean the Doc can get a scream from them quickly again since getting to Level 1 is pretty quick.
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F. For "FFFFFFFFU-"
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@HatCreature said:
So RBT put on before the last Gen are turned on, but after the last Gen they DON'T turn on, I understand the changes but they destroyed Pig.
She was the best Endgame Killer and now she has nothing but BW and a ######### Remember Me. Like I said I get why they did this part but it still destroyed Pig.
Also wouldn't Crouching help Pig with headpops? Wouldn't this turn Pig into the new Legion? She can follow people wearing them now and force their head to explode. This is why they nerfed Legion to absolute garbage who vaults like a Survivor now.
All Pig has to do is put one on, hook em, wait nearby for a Gen to pop and creep behind them for a few minutes until they cry for PIG OP PLEZ NERF!!!
"Also wouldn't Crouching help Pig with headpops? Wouldn't this turn Pig into the new Legion? She can follow people wearing them now and force their head to explode. This is why they nerfed Legion to absolute garbage who vaults like a Survivor now."
Yup. It's still going to be a bad and inefficient playstyle, but griefers will be able to make people's lives miserable more easily.
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@PigMainBigBrain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/437257#Comment_437257
There's high rank pigs? I don't remember pig with a chainsaw or able to teleport.
Eez joke (I think).
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@Peanits said:
This is part of the End Game changes. With the Survivors on a short timer, they can't afford to go around taking a trap off before leaving. Putting a trap on a Survivor after the End Game has already started would be a death sentence particularly when paired with Blood Warden. Traps applied before the last generator was powered will still be active, so you'll still be able to
These changes are just on the PTB for now, though. We'll keep an eye out for feedback and make changes if needed.
That's a very reasonable issue to have to deal with as far as the Pig, but it genuinely seems like BHVR's solution to the problem was just to throw the Pig under the bus. Sure, traps that are already active by Endgame stay active, but now all Traps that are not used by the time the last Generator is finished are garbage. It seems like Pig went from having one of the better endgames to one of the absolute worst. I'm open to being proven wrong about this, but I believe these are really bad changes and should not be left as is without some decently-sized buffs to make up for it.
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Any input?