StarLost
StarLost
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323557#Comment_3323557
I think you're thinking of the DC (Disconnect) timer, not the DS (Decisive Strike) timer.
Hahaha so I did.
DS...eh. I still see it plenty, and I see it in comp. 80 seconds though...sure? Hell, could make it last until you perform a conspicuous action.
@Akumakaji said:
As far as I recall there has been a lot of asking to revoke the stun to the old 5s, even from the killer community. While in the past getting stunned from DS was a constant thing to keep in mind and play around, nowadays its just a nusiance and can be basically ignored in all but the most special of cases. It was only the 100% free escape during EGC that rubbed a lot of killers the wrong way, with lot of situation were they had absolutely no option of getting a kill and everyone got away scott free.
The deactivation during EGC would have been enough.
5s was a bit much to be honest.
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@Deathstroke said:
60s timer is way too short and I purposelly have to go down to get value out of it. And if you go exactly down that there is only few secs left of it. Killer will not pick you up fearing someone tries flashy save some even seem to still count it. The reward is only pallet stun with current ds so it definetely could be lot longer than the old 5s stun. It would actually work as decent anti-tunneling perk agains't killers who walk.
EDIT: No ice cream until I learn to read.
The issue isn't the timer.
It's that it resets by you getting a cup of coffee.
What other games do is make the penalty only decay after playing x number of games without DCing.
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@solarjin1 said:
Just being unfun isn't enough of a reason. The game is full of unfun mechanics. (tunneling, map offering, super safe loops, camping, flashlight blinding at every pallet, etc....)
What could u even replace these offerings with?
Whataboutism.
Also - 'unfun' in this case is a euphemism for 'completely busted'.
@FMG15 said:
Those offerings are extremely unfun for the other side and just promote the unhealthy aspect of the game. Last year, BHVR released a good amount of unhealthy maps with broken RNG (especially GoJ). GoJ has way too many strong loops plus the main building and that's the exact reason why survivors love to send me there when I play Billy or Bubba and unless I run strong addons this can be gg before the match even started. On the flip side killers will bring strong maps as well especially midwich. Both sidesare only bringing the maps that will favor them and that's very unhealthy especially because it screwes the other side over and makes the gameplay very frustrating. Map offering would not even be that big of a deal but the fact that so many maps are just favoring a side too much make them very unhealthy for the game. At this point BHVR should get rid of them
Forget strong loops. The GoJ main structure can spawn as a literal infinite if you run the windows right.
But the answer isn't to remove map offerings. It's to fix the sodding maps.
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@Krazzik said:
I would mention that there's a lot of gen slowdown/regression/blocking perks and many of them are pretty strong. Most of the 'genrush' perks aren't actually that good.
Haddie's one that you cleanse a totem and then do gens faster, it's awful and no one uses it.
Rebecca's one where you heal someone and they do gens faster, it's awful and no one uses it.
Vittorio's one where you get chased near someone doing a gen and they do it faster, it's awful and no one uses it.
Even Yun Jin's one where your teammates get hooked and you get tokens you can spend to instantly get gen progress, which is actually a 'decent' perk, no one uses it.
The only gen-speed perks survivors commonly use are Prove Thyself, which is decent but it's impact is not as strong as most people imply it is, and is mostly used for the bloodpoint bonus, and Hyperfocus, which is only decent with Stake Out -and- a toolbox, -and- is still ultimately heavily RNG.
The 'genrush' meta is mostly just good survivors prioritising gens efficiently, which has a FAR bigger effect on match length than any 'genrush build'.
Nah.
Haddie's thing is actually decent.
HSFP (Hyperfocus Stakeout Fogwise PTS) is absolute nightmare fuel if it's an SWF. I had a game on Ghosty where they sent me to Gideon, and I...literally couldn't kill them fast enough.
They weren't even running me well. Just run run pallet run run pallet down.
In the meantime a gen has popped. And by the time I've hooked, another is half done. The game lasted...maybe 6-7 minutes, and perhaps half of it was me trying to defend gates.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
Boil Over. I despise that perk.
This.
Holy crap is BO obnoxious on indoor maps.
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@DyingWish92 said:
Often I see most streamers and/or DBD YouTubers rank Myers as the worst killer, bottom 3 killers in the game, or D tier. Which I disagree with easily because his instadown power is highly underrated especially in endgame scenarios. 3 survivors alive, all of them fully healthy, one of them procs adrenaline and makes a dash for the 99d exit gate. Majority of the killer roster would be completely screwed here and at least 2 of these survivors would escape. But because Myers can instadown in tier 3 it forces the other survivors to flee from the gate rather then open it for a free escape. If you hold your tier 3 at 99% before end game many situations like this can occur where you can turn a potential 1 of 2k into a 3 or a 4k just by using his power. Did I get lucky with all the survivors being grouped up at the same exit gate, Yes. But even so how many other killers on the roster can turn this into a 4k with this exact scenario??? Don't have to worry about body blocks either which is HUGE. I'm not saying he's A or B tier, but I always felt he sits in C tier somewhere because you never feel likes it's over at endgame if you keep your tier 3 in your back pocket when needed. With that being said his base kit is horrifically outdated and needs tweaks.
No, he's bottom 5 for sure.
The only reason he has a higher kill rate is because of TSP and to a lesser extent IT3.
Outside of these, Myers can be looped...almost forever. I'd have to dig up that one Otz video where he basically just got looped for the entire match on Eyrie.
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@calem said:
I would say you get more variety out of Slinger - because he can make use of m1 perks like Sloppy, STBFL, etc. and stealth builds are way more effective (against competent survivors) since he doesn't have a lullaby. I'm a Huntress main, but I feel like she doesn't have much diversity in terms of builds. It's either aura reading and/or gen slowdown.
I personally don't think either killer is as clunky as people make them seem, it just takes some getting used to (and as long as you're okay spending a lot of time in-game reloading). Slinger can hit some CRAZY shots over certain loops and in-between little gaps that no one ever seems to expect, but at the same time certain latency issues can make some shots hit directly on the survivor but it doesn't register and they keep running away.
In terms of add-ons, Huntress definitely has more "fun" ones. Or at least, add-ons that can "replace" certain perks (like the reload speed is interchangeable with Iron Maiden). My personal favourite is the aura reading purple add-on mixed with Lethal Pursuer. Deathslinger add-ons are just... reload speed, mangled, etc. Not very interesting. And the Iri add-on that inflicts exposed over 14m or something is so rare to get off I just can't seem to justify using it.
My vote would be, if you want variety like you said before, 100% Slinger. If you want more wins but more 'repetitive' gameplay, then Huntress.
Weirdly, Huntress seems more varied to me. Slingers addons seem really dull.
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@Wowie said:
Unironically learned a decent bit from both JRM and Yerv. Scott Jund makes some interesting plays you can learn from but he's kind of a goober otherwise.
"Guides" don't really work for me, so I learned from watching people play normal matches mostly, and I recommend learning that way because it's a little more fun than a 30 minute video dryly repeating survivor tips and breaking down tiles.
JRM is decent, as is Spooky, but they...grate for some reason. Ditto Ayrun, even though I like his playstyle.
I really struggle with Scott. No idea why, but he's just not my thing.
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Hi OP.
I couldn't really say on how much I see dc's.
The data excludes DCs. I'm saying that suiciding (and to a lesser extent AFKing) is ridiculously common for survivors, but killers can't 'suicide', they can only DC. Those kill rates would look very different if you took quitters out.
I can walk you through the napkin math here if you'd like. That 60% is very misleading.
I would then counter that soloq has to run a perk slot for what swf gets for free
Info perks are so valuable for soloq but you can just hope on a call with friends and get that for free.
Yes. These are true statements.
And?
Unless BHVR do a complete mea culpa on their statements regarding design philosophy, they aren't going to balance SWF and solo differently, and the game has to be balanced around SWF.
No way out with noed is a very strong end game power spike.
Not regression or really slowdown, as NWO is barely going to help you in games where you're losing. I like it as a perk, but it more often works as a tool to secure an extra kill or two at endgame. NOED is a horrible crutch of a perk that I never run.
Corrupt is still fairly solid if you are going against strong teams.
CI is the one I forgot. It's...good-ish, but the only killers I'd really use it on are Hag and Trapper.
Regardless, my point is that 6.1.0 was designed to open up the meta slightly.
Then Overcharge got gutted on the PTB and Thana was nerfed to *worse than it was originally*.
So once Eruption is nerfed, we're going to have less variety in the regression meta than we had before.
And the most sleeper perk is Gift of pain
GoP is an awful perk. Just...awful. It can work on instadown killers, but you're generally better off with Surge.
16% would be a bit meh on it's own, but add in SH reliance and it falling off if you get injured, and it's just crap. GoP is basically code for 'let me get a quick bodyblock in then go heal in a boon'.
If a killer has good down pressure (Nurse, spirit, blight) you can get amazing value from this perk.
These are the exact killers that wouldn't want GoP, because they frequently injure multiple people. GoP could be slightly useful on instadowners.
I was running gift of pain, agi, pain res on trapper and had some great games with it.
GoP was barely doing anything. You were getting your value from Agi and PR, which is a solid combo, but you're putting all your eggs into the SH basket and some maps will just RNG your entire build. I've had Midwich, RPD, Eyrie and MD games where all 4 SH perks were together, in a part of the map you'd never go to.
It feels really bad because it's one thing or another. It might not be camping all the time but then it might be tunneling. Personally I feel like a see camping more than 1/20 games. Then again it might just be that the negative experiences stick
Trust me, it's the latter. I don't have any stats from before 6.1.0, but it's substantially rarer now and a lot of different folks have remarked on this. It still happens, sure, but it has never been less powerful than it is now, at least in recent memory.
Unless you're on a chainsaw or maybe an IT3 Myers, it's a huge gamble.
There were rulebooks for both sides on release.
You're...still talking about the one by Samination, right? Or the one by Jaimie?
Both of these are parody.
Why are you taking parody seriously?
Ayrun is a .01% player. There is a massive difference even going down to top 1%.
And?
There's a massive difference going down to the top 1% of killers too.
I find camping to be a cheap and a extremely boring tactic for both sides. I'd much rather play a full meta loadout and go for hooks than be perkless but having to camp/tunnel.
Sure. Camping sucks. Aside from fixing a couple of exploity tricks to bypass BT, there's not much more that can be done aside from removing hook grabs (something I've suggested in multiple threads).
But, yet again, this is another topic.
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50% would be smurfing? the top 5% of killers are around 61% on average. I would say it is safe to say they are at the soft cap and that is also taking into account swf. Is it really unrealistic to assume that soloq is down to 35% while swf is around 45% on average?
Okay, here's the thing.
Again, going off my data I see a quitter in around 25-30% of games. Those stats excluded DCs, so let's be conservative and say 15-20%.
Now, SWFs escape 10-15% more than average, and have very few quitters. But that's a 3 or a 4 stack. So...let's say those are rare enough to be ignored.
That's why those 60% kill rates are probably fine by the devs. Because once you extract quitters and AFKers, it probably looks a lot closer to 50-55%.
If you are trying to read a survivor going down at a pallet that won't really work since everyone and their mother runs dh and that counters playing dropped pallets with dh up. Just like there are issues with soloq there are problems with what survivors have. The only way I see you countering it is when you see a survivor looping and then drop working on the gen. Like its really not worth spending a perk slot and then on top of that having to take time off gens to avoid the perk. I would also say that it's unhealthy to have solo survivors to jump through hoops to avoid the 40 seconds regression.
I mostly read them by how they're moving. I would say that, before a survivor goes down, almost all of them move a certain way as an attempt to juke. The second I see that, I release. If they keep running in a straight line, I stay on.
I would also say that aura reading is essential in solo. It's hardly a wasted slot.
Running the killer for a period of time is a lot to ask when there is bad MM. That's another problem with soloq imo. Like, yes you are not wrong in saying players should be able to hold their own but it just doesn't happened like that. The other players get punished for the game not making an equal squad.
MMR could be tightened up a bit, sure. But again, that's not this thread. And it also cuts both ways - sometimes you'll get a weak killer and decent teammates.
Would say killers still have a large amount of slowdown perk even without eruption
Do they? Everyone and their mum knows how to play around Penti+Plaything. Deadlock is...fine, but can actually work against you. Surge is niche. Overcharge is a terrible perk that gets brought a lot for some reason, much like Thana. Ruin is hot garbage, as is Oppression. Pop is extremely mediocre.
Unless I'm forgetting one, that leaves PR+DMS and CoB. So now we're back to a perfectly static regression meta.
reassurance counters the counter to otr. If you want to counter otr you can proxy camp and hit the survivor that got off hook right away. They need to make it so you get 1 save but it works with endurance. That would make it like ds because right now the perk straight up doesn't work when you are getting camping and tunneled.
Proxy camping is entirely fine, and is mostly a nothing term. It describes everything from trapping a hook to simply defending it.
I would call a camper a person that guards the hooked player when no survivor is around.
Shrug. Then yeah, maybe 4%. That's hardly anything to get your underpants in an uproar over. The only time it's a real issue is when it's a killer that can bypass End (as I said before, these need to be fixed) and maybe a Billy or a Bubba.
https://youtu.be/_n5E7feJHw0If the killers need to camp hooks vs soloq rn then that tells me they're bad. Remember I'm a day one player. I was there when the rulebook was made.
The survivor rulebook is a troll post that basically boils down to 'just let me win'. Nobody takes it seriously. Well...I hope they don't.
Again, referring to when you started almost cuts against you here, because it either means you haven't played that much over the years (or you'd be Ayrun level) or...yeah, actually what I just said.
'Bad' is subjective in a game with MMR. But again, let's say that MMR doesn't work right and that killer is just completely outclassed. I definitely don't think 'bad' here works.
Here's how camping operates on the ground, generally.
- Someone wants to facecamp at first down. That's obnoxious as it's usually a chainsaw. That, again, should be tweaked, but it's a different dicussion.
- A killer knows that the current team they are facing is going to be impossible to beat playing standard. So they decide to camp, in the hopes that this pulls everyone to the hook and they can try to get back in the game. To me, that seems perfectly valid.
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@yauniqua said:
The fact that the KiLLaH MaiNz keep pointing out the hyperbole of your title "10k hours" means that you actually are on to something and they don't want to face the fact that between lag and low input/high output gen popping perks (BUSTED!) that this game has completely 180'd the health of this game.
What hyperbole? The OP doubled down on that claim later in the thread. Unless...is this an alt?
What health? The game was Solo << Killer <<< SWF before 6.1.0. Now it's Solo <<< Killer << SWF. Sort of a lateral movement. And I've heard nearly every survivor streamer I've been watching over the past while talk about how much more fun they are having now...so?
Except he is no where near what you see from the survivors at soft cap. It's like saying killer pre 6.1 wasn't in need of buffs because the best players were winning games as killers. It simply is not indicative of the game state.
No, he's an indicator that you can do solo queue and still escape the vast majority of your games. Now, take someone with 5k hours, about the upper end of what I generally face. Let's say they escape half the time. That's still healthy.
I take "not that bad" as a small negative with "fine" being neutral. Hey, how bad is this injury? It's not that bad. I take that as minor problem.
And this is what I meant about semantics. Moving along.
Eruption doesn't have counterplay for soloq. If the killer kicks gen and leave I either tap and find another gen, gen tap(LOL), or hope a survivor doesn't go down before I complete the gen.
You know what - I'm a terrible survivor. But I'm going to be playing a fair bit next week, so if I see Eruption in a game I can record a few and show just how accurately I can usually predict when someone goes down with Empathy. Just need to figure out where to upload it.
Maybe...50-60% of the time within 10 seconds? And I can bet that more experienced survivors can do that far more reliably. How about we trade? You do your Demo claim and I'll do mine.
Unless you are saying that the counterplay is LOL just don't go down 4Head.
Yes, being able to run the killer for a while isn't just counterplay to Eruption, it's what survivors are supposed to do.
It's all about game delay. I don't see how it is relevant if it is regression or game delay, as both slow down the game. Thana is also game delay not regression.
Not sure what you're talking about to be honest. Nobody runs Thana, for the same reason that if folks like the OP gets their way, nobody will run Eruption.
Well the problem with OTR is killers can bypass it unless survivors use reassurance. The way you fix that is most likely reverting OTR and bringing back DS. If it aint broke don't fix it
DS is still a perfectly fine perk. I see it all the time in comp play. And not sure what reass is about here, because - yes - some killers can bypass Endurance, those cases need to be fixed, but that is not this discussion.
I want to say from 2018-2021
Shrug. You're welcome to your opinion. I think you're wrong, but whatever.
All I can say is - it wasn't until 2021 where they fixed most of the survivor-side exploits, and they still haven't fixed all of them.
Devs want killers to have a 60% kill rate.
And?
The problem with that kill rate is that it's not reflective of the game on the ground.
3 genning and camping/tunneling players out. Why would you 3 gen off the rip? You chase the first player and try to 3 gen with the hook. You now get pressure since the survivors need to save while you are defending a 3 gen at the same time. And I see camping all the time. If a killer falls behind they camp often. Sure if they control the game they won't do it much but when they fall behind I see it quite a lot.
I would include that in 'from the start'. Again, one game in about 550 now.
Define camping? Because I get called a camper constantly because people literally tried to unhook mid chase and I downed them.
Again, in the dataset I'm building (going up another 100-200 games or so, then posting it), excluding games where a killer camps to get 1 kill at endgame (which I don't think anyone is going to whine about unless they are really petty), is defending a hook because a survivor ran out in plain view or followed them or similar, it would be around...5% of games? Between 4% and 5% I'd say.
And okay, let's take your hypothesis here. If killers are having to camp in order to win games...what does that tell you?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323223#Comment_3323223
He'll definitely call a spade a spade when a killer is playing like a Subway gift card is on the line in a regular match, but he's not like most big name survivor streamers whose entire playstyle is predicated on facing a baby killer.
I don't mind bluntness.
What I mind is what I've seen thus far. The second you go down? Complain about either lag, perks, the map, the killer, the killer playing 'weird', the killer playing 'unfair', being sweaty etc. And that sort of thing grinds me.
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@Audiophile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323291#Comment_3323291
“with bad matchmaking no one pushes gens correctly”. Was the correct verbiage.
It’s pretty sad but also indicative of why I need to not waste my time in these forums. You didn’t respond to any point with a logical counterpoint. It was all some variation of “no, you’re wrong. I can say what I want”. I could give a crap if you believe my hours or not. All my points about the game are patently obvious to anyone that plays a lot of solo survivor. I’m not wasting anymore time on talking to brick walls. You can take pleasure in knowing I won’t respond to you anymore. You made the short list of forum folks i won’t waste my time with.
If that's what you took away from my responses, then you may well be right and should just stop. And no 'I'm right because I think I'm right' is not much better. That's circular.
You...aren't. I don't think you said a single accurate thing in that post.
But I will say this. If you've spent 10k hours doing something that makes you so incredibly and visibly miserable, then that's on you I'm afraid. Either find a SWF, switch to killer, or maybe look at a different game - something that isn't team based, maybe?
@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323295#Comment_3323295
The problem with using aryun is like saying a killer like blight needs to be gutted because momo can win 99.8% of his games. We have stats stating that the top 5% of mmr killers are around 60%. Aryun just isn't what you see at the soft cap.
Not seeing how that is moving the goalpost. I'm saying this ######### is a dumpster fire and you seem to be saying that its not that bad. You have downplayed how bad certain things are. You did say eruption has counterplay or something like that before. When it comes to 3 gens you say its the survivors fault unless they did it at the start. That's bad rng and not bad MM. Things like that downplay how bad the game can be.
And you can bring soloq up closer to swf. Eruption is much, much better vs soloq than it is a swf on coms. Camping and tunneling are much, much better vs soloq than a swf on coms. They're widening the gap instead of closing it. Sure you can't have soloq right there with a 4 stack, but at the end of the day the game has some serious problems that only affect soloq. If I play with 3 other good players then bad MM doesn't affect me. Eruption is completely countered if a swf plays well on coms. Killers can't camp or tunnel if I'm in a 4 stack with everyone running OTR and Reassurance, but gl with that in soloq because it just doesn't work. OTR is counter by proxy camping with reassurance being a counter but soloq survivors have no idea if it's in play or if someone used it. It feels like soloq is more there to just pad the stats.
This is why the game was better back in the day. I could bring BT and DS and have killers chase me. The frustrating things about soloq is it's always something. If it isn't bad MM then its camping, tunneling, or killer doing a 3 gen. Back in my day killers actually chased players.
If I'd said 'Blight was unplayable and terrible' then linking me a successful Blight main would have been perfectly fine.
'Not that bad' is miles away from 'fine'. Which, yes, is moving the goalpost, in this case by putting words in my mouth. I mean that, as the obviously sub-optimal way of playing this game, it's far from as awful as folks make it out to be.
Yes, Eruption has counterplay. No counterplay is 100% reliable, or else you've got a useless perk.
And, once again - no, that's not what I said (again, see why I feel like I'm wasting time? You can't even frame my responses honestly). I used what you described as an example - someone went down in the middle of a natural 3gen. That is 100% on them.
- Eruption is slightly mediocre versus coms, but it's also one of...what? 3? Good, reliable regression perks left to killers, precisely because of QQ threads like this. Thana? Overcharge? Ruin? And I can guarantee you that after Eruption gets axed, all that happens is the exact same complaint threads about PR+DMS.
- ...How the hell do you 'fix' tunneling without buffing SWF? You already have baseline BT, perks like OTR and Decisive Strike.
- Ditto camping.
- This is true of most of the issues that solos struggle with. Those issues are, at a certain level of play, absolutely essential for killers to contest a game against an SWF. Now, if you wanted to totally rework the game to remove tunneling and camping while massively buffing killers so that an SWF isn't an autoloss, then...fine? But you may as well ask for a gold played Ferrari. It's not going to happen.
- Mate, everyone from Ayrun to Dowsey to Otz has remarked how much less they see camping and tunneling now. And I've watched games from 2017...there was tons of it.
- 'Pad the stats'? What stats?
- Killers chased you...what are killers doing now? I'm still putting together the dataset I've mentioned a few times in other threads, but less than 7% of the games I played or watched had what I'd call camping or tunneling (no, I don't count defending a hook when there's a survivor obviously nearby, or ignoring someone I hooked before if I find them again either). I saw 1 game in over 500 now where a killer deliberately went for a 3gen from the start. 3gens outside of this are something survivors are responsible for.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Deathslinger's add ons get a bad rap. Both killers have limited options if your goal is to win a game. Huntress is going to want wind up, cooldown, or aura reading. Slinger is reload, prison chain, and cigar.
To be honest, Huntress feels clunkier than Deathslinger to me. You reload more frequently on Deathslinger, but you don't need to walk over to a locker to do it after 5 shots. And you'll hate the locker placement on some maps with Huntress.
Perk diversity is more or less the same. Aura reading and slowdown. You don't really need chase perks, although Brutal Strength can be nice.
I think Deathslinger is really fun. You can get really creative with his shots, and there a shocking number of skill shots to hit with him. Cracks in shack, cracks in tiles, basically anywhere there's a hole.
A lot of people will say Huntress. But I vote Deathslinger.
It's not that they are bad, it's that they look really dull.
Same problem as Artist.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323291#Comment_3323291
You didn't reply totally to the right person.
The reason l bring up stream sniping is because it is a moot point to bring up. I bet money he used that build and a 2k killer will chase the 1600 survivors and not the 2800. This means the way you lose the streak is by someone sniping him and causing it to end by not allowing him to get to end game for his free escape. Implying soloq is fine because of this is just faulty thinking.
I replied to you and the OP, who posted after you.
I gave Ayrun as counterexample - people can do bloody well in solo queue. And I watched those games, as well as his more recent streak attempts (where he'd get 5-8 in a row, then lose - still bonkers). There were a few where he hid and abused the exploit to never get crows, but most of them he played out straight. Very, very good survivor. And killers chased him all the time...because sadly, we can't see MMR in game.
I never said solo queue is fine...(see what I mean by moving the goalposts?).
I said that solo queue will always suck, because it kind of has to. There is no way to bring solo and SWF up to the same level, and you can't balance around solo queue without completely screwing killers over.
I used Ayrun - again (sigh) - as an example of how solo queue isn't quite as bad as everyone carps on about.
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@Jensen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323259#Comment_3323259
In my opinion its not that important as it is for killer. I would call it pretty mutch the standart that the survivor wins the first chase. Its compareable with a doubledown of the killer at the start. a doubledown, brings a killer at least 3 maybe 4 downs and the survivors have done nothing on the gens.
But thats a double down. The killer is in the same situation when Since 3 other guys were making gens you only have maximum 4, but more realisticly 3 gens left until you have your first hook.
Remember that the survivor only have to do 5*90=450sec gen. If you fail the first chase, and hook on the 2nd, 2 Survivors did the whole time gens. And one did like 50% of the time a gen. So your first hook comes like at 90sec, that means 2.5 gens are done when you are at your first hook.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323027#Comment_3323027
I agree with both. I dont say that i have a solution to the problem, just wanted to ask you guys how you think about the situation
Mm. Okay, think of it this way.
I load in, the Claudette goes down almost immediately. It's a Pig.
This gives the killer two stacks of STBFL, an active trap, a Pain Resonance+DMS on my gen and now I need to go and unhook her, or someone else does.
That's two survivors off a gen and a killer with momentum.
Now, the Nea unhooking the Claudette misplays and gets grabbed, trapped, no PR this time but another DMS. And that's basically GG right there.
Of course not every situation is quite like this, it could be better or worse. But that's what I mean.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323277#Comment_3323277
Because I'm talking about how I would think he would lose the streak? What are you even on about.
Though the fact you didn't counter shows I hit the nail on the head. =)
No, it shows that I'm either being baited or am arguing with someone who is arguing for the sake of arguing. There are few things less productive than bickering over semantics on the internet, and we've basically been doing that for a while now. I've honestly lost track of even what your point is for a while now.
If you want to get back to that...fine. We were talking about SBMM versus RBMM and whether the game is better today than in 2017 overall. Otherwise, I'm just wasting my time.
I’m a 10k hr survivor main.
Firstly, I doubt it. Secondly...so? As a wise man once said - 'my bum has been a bum for a long time, but it doesn't mean it ever says anything worthwhile'. Playing the game for a long time does not make you automatically correct.
It just might mean you've been wrong for longer.
You can’t tell me I’m wrong about the games I play every day.
No. But I can tell you when your logic is wrong, or you have a bad opinion.
The game is balanced to swf
As it should be. Because the alternative would be massively unfair to killers. Survivors can choose to play solo or in an SWF, killers can't.
Most games (~85-90%) are solo
I'd have to dig up the post, but if I recall the stat that BHVR gave, this is untrue.
Matchmaking is awful and RARELY creates an all high mmr team
Objection, your Honor. Speculation.
Broken killers and builds destroy solo teams (Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Perma Mike, Coxcomb Wraith + Indoor map, etc
Broken SWFs and builds destroy killers. Yes, this game is not perfectly balanced, but you can't talk about balance on one side without looking at the other. Nurse is getting nerfed, and she's on the radar. Blight will almost certainly be next. Spirit...meh. Outside from one addon combination (which has been bugged for a while now) - are people still moaning about her? Myers needs a rework, sure. Wraith...no.
Camp/Tunnel playstyle destroys solo teams (with bad matchmaking pushes gens correctly)
With bad...what? No, I don't get your meaning here at all.
Hit validation is gone so we still get downed even though killer gets pallet stunned
And? Latency cuts both ways. I'll get pallet stunned from a meter away, or whiff a hit because the survivor isn't where the screen is telling me they are.
Various survivor gameplay issues seem to be acceptable to devs (same button for closet/vault on console, constant ‘failed skill checks’ giving away position without failing a skill check. Just stopping an interaction.)
*Laughs sadly in killer*.
- Console control issues are something else entirely. And, again, cut both ways.
- I've literally never seen that issue. Can you link a video or something?
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322297#Comment_3322297
... which doesn't even remotely apply in this case.
Yeah, it really does. Because all the moaning boils down to 'she can trap stuff and teleport, and I can't just literally run through the trap and escape because it snaps my camera'.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323250#Comment_3323250
There has been no goalpost moving? Op basically implies that killers with low hours can kill high hour players. I gave examples of how I agree with this in general for soloq and gave examples of this in my own experience. Saying its rng or the stars aligning is not a counter point to how a player used a certain strategy to easily win a game they shouldn't have won. It was eruption, camping/tunneling, and bad MM.
So lets talk about Ayrun. Wasn't he in Oracle when they were a top team? Didn't he play in hexy's tournament and play in the finals or semi-finals? So you are now using what I would say is a 2800 player to talk about how soloq is fine because he can do well at 1600.... I haven't watched the streak but I'm going do this crazy thing and predict what he did. Sole Survivor+ wake up and maybe a key+ hatch offering. When soloq team shits the bed and he can escape with a build built around the expectation of your team shitting the bed. Don't worry soloq fine is just fine just give up half your build and say f your team. I'm also guessing the streak ended with him being sniped and a player tunneling him out of the match. If I am wrong I would love to see the stream/youtube vid.
You claimed there was no goalpost moving...and in the same post move the goalposts again by talking about stream sniping.
Yeah, no. Let's call it here. Because we've been going in circles for a while now.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323125#Comment_3323125
It matters less to me what the perk does and more that it needs restrictions to when it can be used. Make it usable once after a hook, make the cooldown apply on kick instead of down. There are options other than being effectively always active.
I prefer alternatives to gen blocking because that can make the perk even stronger in some scenarios, depending on how it's implemented. A DMS style block (only if the survivor is 'hit') isn't nearly as bad as a deadlock style (forces you off the gen) but it's still not a great solution imo.
I'm also not sure why this one perk specifically needs to be locked in at 40+ seconds of slowdown. No other perk provides nearly that much value unless the gen is left to regress freely by survivors. It already provides more regression than Jolt (with infinite range), and that's if no one gets 'hit' by it. Or maybe you're trying to say that Jolt, pop, pain res, etc should all be at least 30% to compete with the 40+ seconds of slowdown on a single perk slot? Either way, Eruption is an outlier.
And since it came up, deal with toolboxes, BNP, and make Hyperfocus not work when using a toolbox. Multiple things can be broken at the same time.
As of right now, anytime after the start of the game, you have to assume that every gen has Eruption. Even a gen at zero when I get there isn't necessarily safe. It's like playing around pain res, except it's a random duration every time someone becomes injured. Doable, but less consistent and far, far more reliant on luck. And god forbid you get a situation where someone gets grabbed while healthy, there's no amount of 'skill' that will predict that.
Sure, it'll be easier with the chase indicator when it's live. That hasn't been an option for the past six months, so why would I talk about it like that's a tool I have readily available now? Will it help? Sure. Does that change my opinion that I think Eruption is terrible perk design? No. The indicator will be useful, but Eruption still needs to have some restriction to when it's usable.
Sure. Let me explain.
- It already has restrictions. It requires a kick, and then a down before that gen is done, and for the people working on the gen not to let go.
- 40 seconds...think of it this way. With the conditions above, and the loss of regression time, it's a high risk/high reward perk that is about on par with the original Eruption in terms of power, but without the incap.
- This is just sort of proving what I'm saying. People say that it's the incap that's the problem, and just to rework it but not nerf it. So we suggest ways to rework it but not nerf it. And then exactly what I predicted would happen happens, and it immediately goes from 'well no, we actually meant we want this perk gone so nerf it'.
- How is it an outlier?
- Yes, multiple things can be overpowered. But when one of these things is being used to counter those other things, then nerfing one makes those things even worse. And...yeah, let's get real here. BHVR isn't going to touch survivor perks or items because A. If they were, they'd have done it already, B. They've always been very reluctant to nerf survivor perks unless those perks are literally breaking the game (and even then, cough OoO) and C. Survivors have been complaining relentlessly since 6.1.0.
- Then we make it work off hooking, buff the numbers accordingly - and you'll be right back then demanding a nerf. Because, again, this is how it always goes. As you've proven here.
- Sigh, if we're really going to go back in time and complain about things being a certain way...I've got 6 years of killer suffering to go through, so pull up a chair.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
I love huntress, I'd consider her my main now - but I think slinger is actually actively more fun. I don't think he's as clunky as everyone says, even after the ads nerf (which I am actually in support of anyways). I think he has less of a high skill cap than huntress but you still need to read people just as you do with hatchets BUT you can spear them through the tiniest holes in loops and buildings to build on top of the aspect of reading people.
I also think he is easier to learn and easier to aim with too - hitting a hatchet over a loop to hit the tip top of someones head is a lot harder than with the spear. I have been playing him a LOT lot more lately and been having a blast.
I still have to mute the lobby screen though because I physically can't listen to the spitting noise he makes because of reasons I don't want to dive into on a forum post.
I'm not too concerned about 'ease', I'm comfortable enough on killer that I'll figure things out fast.
I'm more concerned with:
- Variety. Does this killer always play the same way?
- Fun. Is this killer clunky?
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@Jensen said:
Hello i play mainly killer and i wanted to ask you what you think about the first chase.
In my opinion the first chase is way to important for the rest of the match, if you make the chase but cannot catch the survivor (for example because hes a better player as you) you nearly allready lost the game, because 2 gens will normaly pop in the next few seconds.
And your 1vs4 5gen became a 1vs4 3gen.
You lost any pressure on the enemy team, with your next chase (even if you make it this time) another gen is done (because in that time 3 people can be on generators). And you have 1vs4 2gen.
Yes...but it's just as important for survivors.
A quick down early on basically gives you control of the match for a while. Two quick kills and you snowball almost instantly.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323207#Comment_3323207
Naw nothing changing you just can't make an excuses.
If a player is bronze in league of legends they will never beat a plat player. The entire thing is that you can vs soloq dbd.
Naw not semantics. One is how many hours you want to waste vs 30 seconds. Those windows also didn't matter at the time because 2018 was dead by spirit. It was spirit with a dash of insta saw Billy and Nurse
the point is that there is a player with 2 losses in 1k games in "High MMR". The fact there's a dude with a 99.8% win rate in a pvp game kinda shows that. 998/1000 but demo doing 90/100 is crazy bahha
SxyHxy(Hexy)- If you are playing soloq survivor there is something wrong with you. 6k hours I think
Angrypug- Soloq player from the start and is now not playing this game. 12k
Crazy how legacy streamers are not playing soloq anymore because of how bad it is.
Yeah, we're in semantics now. Which is why I'm not going to bother going further on those things, especially since you keep shifting goalposts.
I will say that Ayrun did...I think a 34 escape streak in solo queue? It's nowhere near as bad as folks make out.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Bryan_S is very good. Considered one of, if not the best survivors in NA comp. But he's chill on stream. Not overly flashy or sweaty. Just good.
I like Siptonic too. He's likes to go for plays a lot more. Really chill.
Huh, that sounds like exactly what I'm looking for.
Because all the 'good' survivor streamers I've been watching...it's just a constant litany of 'omg this killer is so trash haha man I can't believe he fell for...oh he got me, dammit this killer is so sweaty'. Ugh.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323156#Comment_3323156
A player that has no clue on correctly playing loops camped and tunneled 2 weak players on a team and used eruption to completely stall the game and beat a 6k hour legacy solo player. There is no rng or star aligning here. If they don't have the eruption to stall, they lose. If there was better MM, they lose. They won because there was 2 weak players that they tunneled and camped in a 3 gen and used eruption to completely negate the progress the other 2 players were making. There is not a single pvp game you get wins like that.
Infinites are when you literally can not down a player ever. I can only recall that on haddonfield main with BL and maybe house of pain. There was also a farm map where huntress running it the wrong way would be an infinite. A god window is an infinite but you are in chase and the window will lock. Garden of joy is a god window. There were a crazy amount of god windows back in 2017 but I don't recall infinites being a issue anymore. Pretty sure at that time they already boarder up the windows and I think it was 1.1.0 where the anti infinite mechanic was added.
So a person in school is getting out of school to tank their mmr and then come online to then win games. Since you want to talk about Otz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7CH6kjvqpg&t=1717s Isn't laser like the best nurse right now? Crazy how he put momo vs laser. momo must be de-ranking off stream. It doesn't look good when you think a player like that isn't winning off skill but being paired with bad players. Expect he is getting paired with bad players it's just that there is no high mmr in this game. That is the soft cap.
So you are running a perk in the hopes the killer has aura reading? I would take 4 distortions to counter 1 killer perk all day.
Gold mmr isn't high mmr. I would even argue its more low mmr. high mmr is more like diamond. Even with the old SBMM it was low mmr in prime time. That's why players like otz could afk and then win every game. Most players thought he was lowering mmr and not understanding that the mmr was 1900 cap and +-500. Back at that time you would have survivor queues hit 10-15 minutes and games where you could basically play naked demo and still 4k. I would know because I played Demo with bbq, shadowborn, and corrupted.
The pictures n my reply of demo and Nurse builds. The Nurse weapon is legacy.
Yeah, this anecdote keeps changing so I'm going to leave that alone for now.
And...uh, I'd say all team based PvP games have that sort of volatility at times, once they reach a certain level of complexity.
Infinites...ugh, you know what, I'm not going to spend my afternoon quibbling over semantics. Let's say 'pseudo infinites' and leave it at that, because just find/replace and my point is the exact same. Old DbD had major issues and new DbD is, for the most part, far superior.
I'm saying that those matches smelled weird to me - this isn't the calibre of player I see when Supaalf plays. But again, I don't know. And I've completely forgotten what point you were trying to make there.
Distortion...I get value from it almost every single game, because almost every killer uses some sort of aura based info perk, and the only ones that make it useless are maybe Mirror Myers and Hag, with specific addons. Again - I'm saying that if NTH is pantsing you, then run Distortion.
Yeah again, semantics. Not going to bother.
Mkay? I'm just saying it's odd for a legacy player to...you know what, don't sweat it. I think this conversation has run it's course.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323063#Comment_3323063
A new player should not be getting free wins vs players that are much higher skill. This is the only pvp game where this is happening. The problem here is there is zero agency for a soloq player. Killers can be handed free wins over soloq with a gen kicking build and bad MM.
I don't know what game sense you are talking about to know when to let go of a gen when the killer is on the other side of the map. Sure if you can see the chase you can avoid it, but that's really it.
Pretty sure infinites where gone by 2017. The only thing that was left were the god windows, and if I recall correct those were changed in 2019. The only true infinites in the game was against 110 killers from my memory. However, I think even then it was only haddonfield they were a true infinite since huntress could run loops one way to be able to throw hatchets. Killers also had Spirit and Nurse, and OoO was a fairly uncommon perk while being amazing when you were Nurse. Not saying it was all sunshine and rainbows back then but you at least would get fun chases unlike what it is now. I feel like when I play survivor it's the killer playing in the most boring way possible. Also, I forgot BL was still a thing back then. I don't remember any issue outside of Hanndonfield for that perk. Can't think of any other map where that perk was a really, really bad.
When I'm talking about gold I'm more talking about ranks in other games. Silver is around 1300, Gold around 1600, plat around 1900, and Diamond around 2200. In dbd the game is Gold+. This is why higher players win all their games since they are smurfing.
https://www.twitch.tv/momoseventh has over 600 with blight with double speed. Alf also used omega blink on a bunch of his games. I'm pretty sure momo lost 2 games over 1k games played. He had his streak and then another large one he lost.
Players complained about SBMM because they were only getting Nurse and Blight at the cap.
Nowhere to hide counters the downside call of brine has. If you want to counter call of brine you stealth and then get back on the gen when the killer leaves. Nowhere to hide counters this strat since you will spot the survivor. You can stall games very well on these two perks alone.
I'm talking about making a account and logging a few sessions on the site. I had a 82% kill rate back in Oct. while trying but still looking to have fun. Aka I would tunnel off hook if it was a bad save or chase the player that had more hooks. Not doing this things I would be winning 9/10 games. Not really understanding how you think it's some insane feat. You can go watch Bronx play and win his games with meme builds. Pretty sure Scottjund also wins basically every game if he is using more serious builds, and he plays chill all the time. I'm a legacy player that has played this game since 1.0.0. That Nurse weapon Is legacy.
- Okay...but now we're talking about two different things. Yes, this game probably has too much RNG, and sometimes the stars can align and it gives one side a free win that they didn't 'deserve'. Sure. That's not an MMR issue, that's a balance/RNG issue.
- Again, you're now talking about another thing entirely. That same killer will now face stronger survivors.
- Empathy. And...why are we still talking about solo queue in a vacuum? That's like saying all killers need a buff because Trapper struggles. This game is not and cannot be balanced around solo queue.
- Infinites were absolutely not gone by 2017. Haddonfield had one until sometime in 2021 - I think you can still see it in Otz's Nemmy streak video, against a Claudette if I recall. Garden of Joy and Pale Rose still have potential infinites if certain things spawn a certain way. I started in 2019, and it was a nightmare, because *every single game* someone would run me to x pile of doodads or locker pair, go down and I couldn't pick them up. How on earth was that better?
- 'Fun chases'...ahahaha, yes I think I know what you mean. No, being able to loop a killer essentially forever, then pop DH, then run them some more, then potentially jump on a gen, get grabbed and still have DS...no. That was awful.
- Going to skip the gold stuff, as you've just shifted the goalposts hard.
- I watched a bit of that streamer and...something doesn't feel right here. Those survivors are running some weird perks, looping strangely, a lot of suicides and DCs. I don't want to make any accusations, but the last time I saw this sort of thing it was someone on another killer who it turned out was basically AFKing out dozens of games between streams to tank their MMR.
- No, people complained about SBMM because of long queues and games being too 'sweaty' at the cap, which...indicated that it was working.
- Countering NTH - Distortion. Fade away, then circle around and come back. Yes, you can buy time with it...because if you could 100% counter it effectively and you couldn't buy time with it - would that be good perk design?
- Shrug. I'm just saying - that's quite a claim and something you would need to back up with some proof. 45/50 games on Demo. While playing chill. At a high MMR. That is what you claimed - which is why I'm curious.
- What Nurse weapon? I can't see anything like that on your profile - which seems to be pretty new. Do you have a YT or Twitch channel where I could verify...literally any of this?
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323093#Comment_3323093
Yeah, I play mostly killer (70%?) and will always advocate for them. The majority of the player base are survivors so killers need folks willing to have voices that don't stoop to us vs. Them rhetoric.
I also just happen to think killers are in a good spot right now outside of lopsided maps. There are also many many small buffs you could also give underperforming killers such as: trapper starting with traps, neutering overheat, lower static blast cooldown, clown shared bottles etc etc.
Looking at my recent posts I'm defending tunneling and explaining counterplay to perk combos survivors don't like. Not seeing survivor bias there.
Yeah, I don't really want to ad-hom here, but that's not what I'm seeing from you - at all.
@Riski said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323084#Comment_3323084
The idea that some of these "common counter-arguments" are strawman arguments is fair but that's kinda the point. They're not there to shut down all further discussion but some weaker arguments that I felt were surrounding this discussion but I respect the fact that you are willing the debate that these are weak.
Maybe starting with balance points was a bad idea because my main point was the psychology/feeling of playing against. As stated in my other comments a 25-second stun isn't fun for anyone playing against it due to not being able to do anything for so long and receiving it for doing the thing the game tells you to do. If people didn't want to play the game they wouldn't have loaded it up so why would anyone enjoy not being able to play or 25 seconds? Furthermore interacting with the environment (such as kicking gens) is nice as it leads to interesting decisions making with the risk of lowering player interaction, however when you have enough perks to make that decision irrelevant and default overwhelming to yes you remove the fun part while having matches where the killer would rather interact with the environment than survivors. If survivors wanted to not interact with other players they wouldn't have loaded a PVP game.
I agree that having it block gens instead of incap would be a good idea as the survivor could still do secondary objectives such as healing or chests then and feel like they have more agency in what they do in those 25 seconds instead of sitting around.
As for balance, 10% as contingency is still good and forcing the survivor to constantly get off the gen is even more on top. I will agree that against very coordinated survivors on full coms playing as hard as they can to win it's often 10% but that is a very small minority compared to most players where the perk consistently gets too much value as it will hit people on gens at least somewhat regularly.
Finally, it's not fair to say that people need to be playing on discord to enjoy this game. If I wanted to play a game while on voice chat with strangers, I would have played a game that advertises that.
If those arguments are so self-evidently weak, then you can just ignore them. There are a ton of folks on these forums, so you can always find someone saying some silly thing - and when you post it as if that was the common opinion of killers, it actually weakens your own argument.
Here's the other side of the perk equation. You don't know, as a killer, if you're facing a bunch of solos with meh perks or a monster SWF with PTS/Hyp/Stakeout, and you won't know until you've lost 4 gens in 3 minutes. So...yeah, about all you can do is try to buy time to figure it out.
Again - if the incap is really the problem here, then make it a slightly longer gen block (to compensate for the lost regression time)...but from what I'm seeing, complaining about the incap is really just a smokescreen for ye olde 'whatever the current killer meta is is unfun because I lost to it' nonsense.
It doesn't matter if it's a minority (I would hesitate to call it small, I think the last time we got stats, 50% of survivors play in groups of some size). It's the potential that you could be facing that group in your next game that makes killers run deep regression and come in firing.
I think that's entirely fair, actually. 'Fun' is subjective. I have fun in solo queue, but I realize that it's sub-optimal and will always be sub-optimal, because if SWF exists, then that is what is needed to be balanced around. Otherwise, it's massively unfair to killers. You'd basically be saying 'well, if you get an SWF, you might as well just take a loss at the selection screen'. So much for interactivity.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323084#Comment_3323084
A 40 second gen block is still ridiculous imo. Aside from corrupt intervention (2 mins), the only other perk that blocks gens that long is grim embrace (40s), and that only triggers once per game. The other gen block perks are DMS, Deadlock, and repressed alliance at 30 seconds, and all of those have restrictions. DMS is limited duration and only after a hook, dead lock can only block one gen, and repressed must be earned and only affects one gen. Thrilling tremors is at most 15 or so seconds.
Eruption with this effect is essentially just a grim embrace on every down, if no actual restrictions are added to the perk. And even if it isn't 'every gen' (it could be), it'll at least be 'every essential gen'.
I'd much rather have survivors be affected by an 'Erupted' debuff for 30 seconds, that reduces gen repair speed by 50% for 30 seconds and nothing else. Even if survivors stay on the gen after being debuffed, it'll take 18 seconds to break even with the 10% initial hit, and give slowdown beyond that. Give survivors a choice to work on the gen at the speed of smell or go do literally anything else at full speed.
It's not 'letting go for a few seconds' tho, that's the problem. Even if I grant that 'knowing someone is in chase' is game sense in every possible situation, it could be you're letting go for a few seconds or two minutes. You have zero idea how long that chase will last unless you have a clear line of sight to watch it happening, or you're on comms. Even gen tapping is just down to lucky timing unless you have eyes on the killer.
And until they add the 'chase indicator' for everyone, you may not have any idea that the injured, non-obsession survivor is in danger across the map. There's no amount of 'game sense' that overcomes that. Luck could, and perks that rely on lucky timing to show you auras. Or your friend on discord.
Consider what Eruption takes to trigger, and that it can be countered. 40 seconds is...frankly, the bare minimum you'd need unless your goal is just to Thana the perk (or maybe 'Ruin' the perk would be better). Comparing perks to other perks in a vacuum is pointless, because it's usually the synergy that makes it worth running.
That 'Erupted' effect would be doing this - you'd just see the perk stop being used, because now you've got an unreliable perk that needs kicking. A lot of genspeed comes from hitting Greats (which is why Hyperfocus/Stakeout is so brutal to face).
I'm going off the 'chase indicator' because...duh? We'll probably have that in less than a week. If I'm playing solo queue, I run Empathy (some folks like Bond) - and with that, I'd say that I can reliably predict when to let go more than half the time. And I'm not anything close to a good survivor.
You're completely ignoring that survivors have agency here. Take note of which gens are kicked. If someone's being chased, anticipate the down. If you waste a few seconds, you're still ahead of the game.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322942#Comment_3322942
I must be unplugged from the killer main hive mind because I absolutely feel eruption deserves a nerf.
A nerf? No. Not a chance.
Rework it so that people stop moaning about the incap? Sure. Which is why I suggested a 40 second gen block.
Also - I thought I remembered you, so out of curiosity, I took a peek at your other threads. Are you sure you're a killer main?
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@Riski said:
I feel like eruption has become the big name on the block and while most people can seem to agree that it's too strong, they're people who still believe it isn't that bad or believe it's a problem but maybe not for the right reasons.
The first thing people talk about with eruption is balance. Kicking a gen with this perk marks it and when a survivor goes down the gen loses % and any survivors on it are incapacitated for a duration. This % and debuff translate to roughly 40 of gen time if one survivor is hit. This is probably the most gen time a single perk can get you in one action of kicking a gen. This is in theory balanced out by needing to then down the survivor but in practice, this isn't a significant downside for any killer with a chase power or killers who use other perks such as Call of Brine or Overcharge to help defend the gen to buy them time. The other issue is this assumes you hit one gen or only one survivor, you can go around kicking every gen on the map if you desired and although that is unreasonable it isn't unreasonable to say that this perk will at multiple points hit multiple gens in one down. This shear amount of gen time it buys you is just too much but this may lead to some counter-arguments to why it's balanced:
1, You can dodge the debuff: In theory yes you could however if you weren't on the gens the killer wants to defend chances are the killer doesn't need that extra gen time as much. A coordinated team on comms could try to convey when they may go down but this balance idea assumes that every team is coordinating as much as possible on third-party software. Teams who don't have to try and guess when the teammate will go down however this basically requires them to get off the gen any time a teammate is injured which results in a similar amount of time lost anyway. Considering this is a perk that requires you to kick gen, a core game mechanic, and requires this level of counterplay to even try and minimise the value of it seems like an unfair trade-off. Obviously, the perk should get value but even trying to play around the perk for most players gets it as much value as if they didn't and if they do successfully play around it you still get the % lost which isn't insignificant.
2, Why are you complaining about eruption when survivors have _____ or, why talk about eruption when ____ exists in the game: surprisingly me talking about eruption doesn't mean that I think everything else is perfect, I'm talking about eruption because I think it's the most interesting issue to talk about as the perk is very unique and has a lot going on. A couple of common ones like this I hear are 1) gen speed bonuses: if survivors are doing gens in 40 seconds with prove and bnps chances are you wouldn't have been able to kick the gen anyway so I don't see how this helps combat that here and 2) dead hard: dead hard is silly and although I wouldn't say it's as powerful as eruption it has it's own problems, me talking about eruption shouldn't immediately imply otherwise. Any other arguments about eruption that follow these lines should be treated as either; we're not talking about that right now we're talking about eruption or, I agree but I still think eruption is a problem. If every suggestion for a nerf is met with "only if we nerf this first" we'll have an infinite loop of nothing being nerfed or the devs working on a single patch which has to fix every issue simultaneously which they obviously won't have the time for with going for a long period without actually fixing anything. Better to fix some issues and have less than fix none at all.
The other issue I believe exists with eruption is it leads to unfun gameplay to play against. As mentioned previously having to constantly guess when your teammate goes down is basically lucked-based and infuriating. If you don't you have been incapacitated for 25 seconds, which means you can't do anything. The only thing you can do with this debuff is run around, interact with chase objects and get unhooks but as the killer has just downed someone chances are no one is currently on a hook and you won't be getting chased as you teammate is getting hooked so you basically can't do anything for 25 seconds. I should have to explain why not being able to play the video game for 25 is not fun, if I wished to not play the video game I wouldn't have loaded it up. The other incapacitated effects in the game are tied to killer powers, both twins' and cenobites' powers apply this but they do it notably differently. The effects last indefinitely until an action is performed meaning the survivors have agency in the duration and feel like they can do something to get rid of this debuff, secondly the killer actively wants to engage with these survivors as with the twins they're injured and the killer knows the survivor's location while with cenobite the survivor has the box and the killer gains a large benefit from catching them. This means even if the survivor can't do anything for a long time they're still likely to be engaging with the killer or doing it by choice. With eruption, the killer knows they're not doing gens for 25 seconds which is more than enough time to hook the downed survivor and go to the gen they were on to defend so the killer is encouraged to let the survivor sit there and do nothing for 25 seconds.
The other unfun part of this is the meta it's created. When combined with other gen-kicking perks the killer begins to gain more value from kicking gens than chasing survivors. This is fine usually as most gen-kicking perks have cooldowns or deactivate when kicking a gen meaning the killer is forced to chase survivors after kicking the gen but not these perks. This means if kicking the next gen will take less time than getting a hit on a survivor you will do it and leads to matches where killers kick half the gens on the map before starting a chase. This is unfun as it drags matches out without increasing the amount of player vs player engagement, when I play the hit horror PVP game dead by daylight I play because I want to engage with other players in a horror environment so if a strategy means that's not happening and instead I'm stunned for long durations with the other side actively not engaging with me or my team it is understandably not fun. Some common counter-arguments for this are
3, I care about balance not fun: games are designed to be fun, if something makes the game unfun that's a problem. Balance is an issue in video games because unbalanced mechanics leads to unfun and infuriating gameplay and ultimately fun is still what you're designing around if you care about balance. We may just have different definitions of fun which I can understand, but I hope my argument can show why many people do find this unfun in a way that is a problem.
4, Surely camping and tunnelling as strategies people intend to do from the start are also unfun to play against and at least this isn't that: to start with go back to question 2 people can believe there exists more than one issue at a time. All these strategies have the same issue of the killer actively not engaging with most of the team so that doesn't mean that this is more fun just because it's different. On a more personal level, at least with tunnelling or camping matches are over quickly due to killers not spreading pressure or defending gens or survivors dying from failing to be altruistic instead of being dragged out for 20+ minutes so I think I would rather camping or tunnelling because those games tend to be over quickly. I should point out briefly that yes survivors can do things that are commonly agreed upon to be unfun, see common question 2.
5, if the strategy of gen kicking uses multiple perks why bring up eruption in particular: eruption is notably the most powerful perk on these builds and is the least fun to play against individually. I do believe it could be healthy to limit how much you can use similar perks like Call of Brine or Overcharge in a given period of time but that's a different discussion.
Before I write a TLDR there are two other counter-arguments that should be brought up that appear commonly but didn't fit elsewhere:
6, You're obviously just a survivor main who wants the killer to be weak/have an easy time: this is a bad argument on 3 bases. Firstly, you have no way of proving that, killers can think killer perks are too strong and vice versa. Secondly, if my argument is bad and based on my own emotions without good reasoning then tackle the reasoning not me as a person. Thirdly, if I was a survivor main who plays against this a lot then I should know a lot about playing against this perk. Given a large portion of my argument is that the perk leads to gameplay which is unfun to play against being a survivor main who plays against this a lot should in theory mean my argument is based on experience not theory.
7, well if it's a problem what's the solution: ######### if I know I'm not a game designer. Game design is obviously something that interests me given I've written this much about it however being able to diagnose something as a problem and treating that problem are different. If people would solve problems just by seeing that they were there and diagnosing the symptoms we wouldn't have people whose jobs are to solve these difficult and complex issues.
I also want to make it clear that I do not want to shame people who use this perk or play like this. You play the game how it is not how you want it to be because the game you want does not currently exist yet and likely never will. If you want to use this because it's effective and don't care for survivor fun in your matches then fine do that but please separate that from concepts of game balance and design.
TLDR: The perk has very good numbers, trying to counter these numbers is ineffective and random outside third-party software and the perk is still good when countered. People can believe multiple things are problems while talking about just one. Incaptasiated without alternate objectives or reasons for the killer to engage with the survivor leads to people just not playing the game for a fixed amount of time and 20+ minute matches where one side doesn't actively engage with the other side isn't fun to play against. I'm not a game designer I don't have a proposed solution but people can still recognise this as a problem and try and make the devs aware of that.
Okay.
Let's go point by point.
- This game cannot be balanced around solo players. In an SWF, it's not hard to say 'let go'. The reason this game has to be balanced around SWF is because survivors can choose to play solo or in a team, and killers have no choice - your next game could be against a 4man.
- No, saying that killers need muscular regression perks because of how fast gens can potentially move now is a perfectly valid statement. Because it's true. If the incap is really the complaint here, then - as a lot of folks have suggested - just make it a gen block. But you and I both know that this won't even slow the QQ train down. Also - you do realize that, to get Eruption off, the killer actually needs to chase and down someone, right? I'd say that most folks care less about 'fun' than about 'winning'. Because, for most folks, winning is fun.
- 'Fun' is subjective. See above. It's all good and well to say 'well, killers should play in x way because that's more fun to me' - but A. that ignores what is fun for the killer and B. is not the reality on the ground. Balance does not occur in a vacuum.
- Irrelevant. Moving on.
- Anyone using Overcharge is playing the game wrong. This perk sucks, no matter how you slice it - and is only really useful in skillcheck builds. It takes 12 seconds to reach regular regression rates.
- Lazy strawman. Moving on.
- The issue isn't design here, really. It's pure psychology. You can follow the complaint train (comtrain?) about literally whatever the killer meta is at any point in time, right from the start. For the longest time it was Ruin. Then Ruin+Undying. Then still Ruin+Undying, after it got nerfed. Then it was PR+DMS. Then 6.1.0 happened and it was Overcharge. Then Thana. Then STBFL. Then PR+DMS again. Now it's Eruption. In most of these cases, the complaining led to these perks being nerfed into near uselessness. There are 4 survivors to every killer per match, meaning four more people to get salty and blame the killer/playstyle/perks/teammates for their loss rather than saying 'well, I made mistakes'.
Eruption will probably get Thana'd before too long. Then we'll be back to complaining about PR+DMS or STBFL until that gets gutted. And on and on we go.
Eruption...not sure what you mean by 'numbers'. It's strong if you get hit by it, but you can take steps to avoid this. You can't just talk about one thing in this game, because balance doesn't work like that. It's all well and good to say 'well, killers being crap doesn't bother me if I'm having fun' - but that's incredibly selfish.
The reason you see Eruption, CoB and/or PR so much is because...what else are killers going to run? Ruin and Thana aren't worth using anymore. Surge and Penti are unreliable. Overcharge and Oppression are terrible. Info perks get redundant and there aren't many universally good lethality perks. Because of how fast gens can potentially move - killers need to go in prepared for it.
The solution is to take some agency and find an SWF - which is super easy to do, by the way, they're always popping on the DbD Discord. Or run an aura reading perk and use some gamesense to try and let go in time.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322857#Comment_3322857
The problem isn't simply that it's an unfun perk, it's that the perk removes a player from normal gameplay. It's essentially a stun, or most games call it a 'silence' effect, where you can't do much more than move around with your character.
Most perks/effects in the game that remove a player from gameplay have either a warning/telegraph, or a form of counterplay. Sometimes both.
The biggest form of counterplay is interaction with the opposing team. So, being removed from play by being hooked or slugged, for example, has counterplay of looping and directly interacting with the killer. You can use mind games, players make mistakes, etc.
There are exactly two perks in the game that remove a player from normal gameplay, have no warning or telegraph, and do not involve direct interaction with another player. These perks are Blast Mine and Eruption.
Blast Mine must be earned, can only apply to one generator at a time, and expires after 60 seconds regardless of if it triggered. It's also generally considered one of the 'fairer' perks in the game because it has all of these restrictions.
Eruption, on the other hand, has no activation requirement (like pop with hooking a survivor), can be applied to any number of gens at the same time, and never expires. Even the cooldown isn't limiting because it's barely longer than the stun at 30 seconds, and triggers on down, not on kick. The perk is effectively always available to use.
Eruption needs a restriction to when it can be used at minimum, or reworked entirely. Maybe both.
As others have suggested - make it a 40 second gen block, to compensate for the lost regression.
Do you think that will end the moaning? (Spoiler: not a chance).
It's not the incap. It's that this perk requires survivors to be a bit proactive, apply a bit of gamesense and let go for a few seconds.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
BHVR has been releasing a lot of the older Lunar New Year cosmetics that could have been earned for free through codes recently and I wanted to gage people's thoughts on them.
Some of these cosmetics use to be rare (and while owning a lot of them on my PS4 account), I feel as if it is pointless to complain about cosmetics returning since it at least gives newer players the opportunity to be able to use them.
Cosmetics, are well, just cosmetics, I can understand being upset over FOMO but removing FOMO elements from the game by bringing old cosmetics back should be praised and not be seen with such negativity in my opinion.
It's a lose/lose for BHVR.
Put a limited time cosmetic in? People complain about FOMO.
Put those cosmetics back in? People call you lazy.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322949#Comment_3322949
The plague found a weak link and made a 3 gen around her. She was legit carried by eruption, and I think I was hit 3 times on the same gen before I gave up. If I recall correct each proc of eruption is 40 seconds of game delay while old pop was only 20.
I only remember the 100 hour players in red ranks when they made reset only go back one color. I would agree that the last part of RBMM was bad because they never did resets. All they had to do with the old system is make it harder to rank up and remove the safety pips for purple and up. I would say back in 2018/19 the game was in a much healthier state than what it is now. At least in RBMM it was more about the chases than kills/escapes.
SBMM is capped at 1600. Once you hit that soft cap you can play with players that have 2800 mmr and all the way down to around 1400. My Nurse games can have players that legit no clue how to play vs the killer. I basically never lose with the killer so it isn't like I should be playing vs new players. I've seen streamers that get 500-600 win streaks with mmr. The reason they can do that is because it's top players going against gold players in most of their games. When I play soloq it is a living hell at soft cap. So many killers just do a kick build and defend a 3 gen. If you don't see that then you are going to see camping/tunneling in most of the other games. If you lower your mmr is basically the same unfun experience.
When I did nightlight I think I had a 82% kill rate over 18 games with Demo. I had a Wesker daily and ended up getting lerys with him. I had 2 hooks with 4 gens done and they ended up having them spend legit 10 minutes to get the last gen vs a 1 slowdown killer. There is a massive difference in power from the top-end of builds to even mid-range. I would say Call of brine and Nowhere to hide is already going over the edge in terms of power. You then add eruption and it is way over the top for what killers should have in 3 gen scenarios. The only games I struggle with Demo is when players know they're in control of stack gain and then also pre-leave gens. And I don't even try to force 3 gens with the killer or focus on removing a player asap. In my opinion I would call that playing chill.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4LZ5BD5S26G8/screenshot-2023-01-20-102239.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LGQOJU8UQJEH/screenshot-2023-01-20-102344.png
Well...that's a weak link going down in a very silly place. This isn't a balance thing, this is a 'we got outplayed' thing. You were let down by a teammate.
Eruption - here's the thing. Pop - you hook, you find a gen, you dump a pop into it. There's nothing survivors can do. Eruption - you first need to kick a gen, then have it not be finished mid chase. Then you have to hope that survivors don't have the gamesense to let go, or that nobody calls it out. I've taken Eruption off my bars because even solo queue bunny rabbits are getting savvy on the timing and the hard games, the ones with a spooky SWF, make it sort of useless.
The game was absolutely not in a better state in 2019. Infinites, exploits, every map having a 'you can't pick me up from here' spot, generally more than 1. Crazy imbalanced perks like old DS and OoO. Stupid, stupid maps like Haddonfield.
Could RBMM have been reworked into something better? Sure. But it's a fait accompli at this point.
SBMM...people overestimate how many folks are capped.
No, you're not facing 'gold' players at the MMR cap. I was gold maybe two weeks after I started, and the only time you'll see a 30 hour player matched against the 8,000 monsters at MMR cap are volatility, lobby dodges or smurfing.
That 600 winstreak is Supaalf. On Nurse. With more hours on her than most people have total. And a fully stacked build. That's an anomaly, and...really doesn't prove anything besides 'yeah, Nurse maybe needs some tweaks'.
SBMM used to be a bit more selective at the higher end, but people complained about the ridiculous queue times they were getting.
Yes, we can trade anecdotes all morning, but anecdotes really don't prove anything.
Nowhere to Hide...what? The only reason this perk works is because survivors get cocky and try to hide near a gen (or I guess on indoor maps on Nurse, but this isn't Dead by Nurselight). Call of Brine is completely fine - the only reason it sees usage now is because of how mediocre most other regression perks are.
Yeah, we're not talking about an anecdotal nightlight stat. You said 45 wins in 50, while still playing chill (implied, at higher MMRs). That's what I want to see, because that would prove your point pretty conclusively.
The ball is in your court, mate. I'm always up to watch some incredible Demo gameplay at that sort of win rate...while playing chill - which was your claim. Really curious to see you pull it off.
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Pffft ahahaha. That was great.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322681#Comment_3322681
It's a game problem if a bronze player is winning games vs players much better than them. An easy way to look at it is if I had an entire group of soloq at my skill level. Now this plague is so outclassed to the point that she literally doesn't get a single hook in 5 gens(she got a 4k).
Hell I had a game yesterday were a wraith chased me and then dropped chase and ignored me for the rest of the game. Once he kills the 3 other players he then spends 5 minutes to just down me once. There is not a single game out there that allows players that are that outclassed to still win games. The funny thing is that unless I find hatch he wins those games every single time. I simply have zero agency over the game if the killer ignores me and my team can't hold their own. The only real way to escape as soloq is to make an entire build around escaping through the exit gate/hatch when you get bad teams. In my opinion that's just bad game design.
Now we go to the good old RBMM. In the 2 games I mention I can at least rank up and get better survivors. I might lose those games back in the day but I have agency in getting better players through pips. If I'm already at r1 I can simply wait for reset and rush to r1 to get better players. There is at least windows were you get good games unlike what this game is now(play swf or don't expect a fun experience).
SBMM is capped at gold. I can play Nurse with no add-ons with one slowdown perk and win 48/50 games while also playing chill. I can play demo with 3 game delay perks and I can still win like 45/50 while still playing chill. With RBMM the week before reset was when more of the casual players would be hitting red ranks where match quality would go down the drain. So if you wanted to play chill with lower tier killers you could do it at the end of the reset and play survivor at the start to get an overall decent gaming experience. I personally was always at red ranks even on release so maybe I just see things from a different perspective.
Mkay. Let's look at your examples.
- This game is very snowbally and occasionally a touch RNG. Sometimes the stars align and you get really nutty fountain spawns on Plague, for example, and that sort of carries you. But the inverse is possible too - terrible spawns and a map that basically plays itself for survivors. And that's not even the most extreme - some maps can still spawn literal, no-kidding infinites.
- Similarly, one really bad play from a survivor - especially getting grabbed at a hook - can instantly let the killer snowball. It's just...sort of how the game is. But without that comeback potential, it would be really dull.
- That Wraith game seems to be, from your description, a case where 1 great player and 3...well, players like me get put up against a killer slightly higher MMR than the 3 but much lower than the 1.
- Survivor is a team role. That means your teammates can let you down. It's why solo is the least optimal way to play this game.
- You're RBMM example makes no sense. People complained constantly that it was too easy to hit purple or iri ranks, and they were getting 200 hour teammates to their 4,000 hours. Again, MMR isn't perfect but it's way better, if only because - outside of some volatility situations or lobby dodges - it's a bit more nuanced.
- SBMM is...what? No, that's the exact opposite of how it works.
- I want to see you do that on Demo. Seriously, do it and upload those matches. Because I'm calling shenanigans unless you're smurfing down your MMR between matches. Because I'm a solid Demo player and there's no way I could do that.
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@WesCravenFan said:
People showing off the Scary Movie mask they got in the last rift.
Ahhhh...that's it. It's the cosmetics from the last rift.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322715#Comment_3322715
Thats what I want playing as survivor. I dont need to escape, but at least give me " false hope" that there is a chance that I can escape. People only do things if they know the result can be difference: think they can escape if they do Gen.
1 died at 4 Gens give no hope (yes its survivors' fault for have 1 dies at 4 Gens), there for the next survivor will suicide on hook or not willing to play. Do Gen or not, they will die anyway, so they dont do Gen, its just a simple human psychology
Weirdly (and I'll have the data up next month) - games where I camped, tunneled or slugged have the exact rate of suicides/DCs/AFKs as when I play like this.
Because most of these quitters happen on the first one or two downs, or the first time you hook someone. I've had people suicide when I was at 3 hooks, it was their first hook and they had 1 gen left. I've also had people quit the second I started playing chill, and type 'just ###### end it moron' in postgame.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322698#Comment_3322698
While I do see the OP's point, and I agree to an extent, I agree more with StarLost here.
To futher expand on how I see it, I actually play both Killer and Survivor, tending to play Killer when I am alone and survivor with my streamer friends. So, I play both with a mindset of "Do Unto Others How You Would Like Them to Do Unto You" and it overall serves me well. Yea, I get found first a lot of the time. Yea, I get tunneled out a lot of the time. Yeah I get facecamped a lot of the time. But, I can't tell you how often we have the killer come into Twitch chat after the game and say GG. Now, a lot of streamers get pissed about that, they'll get super toxic about "You camped me, you're trash" and stuff like that, but the streamers I watch don't do that. We thank them for coming in, and welcome them to our community. My DBD name doesn't match my Twitch name, so I'll tag them in chat and say "GG I was the Claire" not be angry because I feel they tunneled me. Because in the end, we believe this is just a game and we try to keep things positive always. Heck, one streamer I follow has a "Toxic Chainsaw Massacre" redeem where he plays Bubba and does all the things survivors think is toxic about Bubba, and he's gotten a lot of followers after that because when they come into his chat to complain, they are thrown by how awesome he is. They realize that in the end, its just a game and only you can choose to make it fun for yourself.
I swear, playing survivor after...maybe 500 hours of nothing-but-killer really changed how I saw the game. Because when you're on a killer in a game against better survivors, you can feel completely powerless - but the same holds true for survivor.
Now I play to win, sure, but I also tend to ease up if I'm stomping as killer and let folks pip/get some BP, finish a few gens, give them some healing to do etc. I don't farm, but unless someone suicides, I'll leave with 35k BP and they'll leave with 20k+
I like that.
One of the core problems with survivor is how stupidly their emblem rewards and BP gain is designed - it's entirely possible to leave a match with sub 5k BP and depip, for reasons mostly beyond your control. It's why I still prefer killer.
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@Saiph said:
The grind was absolutely not worse before. That's what BHVR pretends, I don't know if they really believe that it's true or are just delusional.
In fact the update made it significantly worse:
- for new players, need to grind characters to lvl 50 to unlock their perks now, whereas before you needed only the teachable at lvl 30. Considering that the first 15 bloodweb levels are almost free, that's a 2x cost. Before you needed ~20 hours to get a basic build now you need ~40.
- huge nerf to BP offering drops now as you only get trash for the first 20-30 levels of the bloodweb, then you get some decent stuff and by the time you get maybe 1 bloody party then you have to prestige again. Same applies to items btw. It has become so bad that even long time players are running out of good items/addons while before most of us had 100+ of them. Now you see streamers run perks like residual manifest just to get a flashlight.
- As killer, the best and easiest perks are now mostly pay2win (Eruption, Deadlock and CoB specifically). BBQ does no longer give BPs. The BP incentives compensate partially for this but they depend on luck while BBQ was consistent and healthy for the game.
No, it was worse. Way worse.
- You needed BBQ on killer for starters, which was on a licensed killer.
- Sure. But once that teachable is unlocked, it's there for everyone. Previously, you had to then go and unlock it on anyone you wanted it for. So if I wanted Dead Hard, but didn't want to play David it was a schlep.
- The BP offerings are as good as they've always been. I think I also see a lot more cakes/puddings than I did before.
- Eh...Deadlock is not what I'd call a 'best' perk. CoB is a fine perk, but that more comes down to better perks being nerfed. Eruption is...Eruption. It's a solo stomper, but will often do nothing in an SWF match. And...you don't need to chase the meta, because the meta is always changing. Surge is a decent regression perk and comes baseline.
Yes, there is a grind that is a bit much for newer players, but it's better than it was.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322695#Comment_3322695
Botany
Botany used to buff Medkit, which is broken yes.
New Botany increase the boost from +33% to +50%, sounds alot, but lets do the math.
- +33% makes healing from 16sec to 12sec. Save 4sec per heal.
- +50% makes healing from 16sec to 10.5sec. Save 5.5sec per heal.
Which mean, that 17% (sounds huge) save only additional 1.5sec per heal. With the downgrade that Brown medkit no longer able to heal my self.
Now in this scenario. I get a Brown medkit from a chest. I cant heal myself from it, I have to give it to teammate. If I give the medkit to my teammate, why I should use Botany in the beginning? They can already self heal faster with the Brown medkit without the need of me following them to heal.
Pharmacy
I used to pair this perk with Ace in the hole, to get a strong Green medkit and gift to teammate. Now I have to be injured. Point is, its really hard to escape chase unless you're really good and force killer to give up chase. If you're really good in chase, is healing necessary?
Now if I get hooked, then unhooked. Why I should run, find, search a chest to get a Green medkit; while I can just sit there for 16sec and healed by teammate?
That 1.5 is actually quite substantial. Over a match, those seconds add up as that's time two survivors have to do other things. Yes, Botany doesn't play nice with items, and that's fine - it's incredible to bring if you're going empty handed or another item.
Pharmacy...sure. That was a weird change, and Santa builds are fun in a group but it was a weird, weak, gimmicky perk and still is. I'm not sure, but didn't it only use to work once though? If so, then I think the changes come out - at worst - about even.
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@Warlord1981NL said:
Be me wanting to play a fun game...
Running the perks:
- Distressing
- Hex: Thrill of the Hunt
- Beast of Prey
- Franklin's Demise
I like to call this build "Gimme stuff and bloodpoints". A VERY tame build.
Encounter a group of sweaty survivors with the usual sweat builds that take me to Meat Packing Plant and use 2 Petrified Oaks, double slightly increasing the distance between hooks.
Manage to kill two of them and the last two keep going to a corner of the map where I simply cannot get to a hook fast enough to hook them. After having tried several times throughout the match, I just leave the survivor downed in that corner and go hunt the other one, because what is the freaking point?
While I am hunting down the other survivor the downed one bleeds out as I got every pallet in existence thrown at my face. Just took a while to find her in the first place and because she was good at looping it took a bit longer.
And after the match they complain about slugging and call me names... Are you kidding me?
Then don't bring petrified oak so it is feasible for me to actually reach a hook... So tired of this. They did caused it to happen, I'd rather hook em and get my points but no. Picks stupid map, picks 2x distance increase, bring wigglin perks and then complain that when downed in a corner of the map that I cannot make you leave where I already know I can't reach a hook that I don't pick them up. The hell is wrong with people?
Clearly, if you don't want that to happen then don't do everything in your power to give me no other choice... Your fault, not mine. So tired of this...
Yup. It's really annoying.
It happens on both sides of the fence, but it's way easier to go 'oh your perks/killer/playstyle lost us the game' than 'yeah, I fouled that up, my bad'.
About the only time where some salt is justified is where you get sent to a really evil map as killer (infinite GoJ for example) or someone's being cheesy/obnoxious (hard camping at 5gens with a DC'd player, abusing spots where you can't be picked up etc.).
Reminds me of a game a bit back that stuck with me.
Was playing a weird attempt at a stealth Doctor build, where I'd have Insidious and pretend to be a hallucination. It worked beautifully and I got told 'OMG ur so bad you can't even play normally' in postgame.
@shalo said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0JK0U7LKT6CS/slugtime.jpg
A zero hook game I'm ok with.
What the hell happened there lol?
But oh man, sabo players. The second I see you start, I'm dropping and chasing you. And it'll be you on the hook and then the other two have to both heal the slug/unhook the slug and you. Which is generally a snowball moment.
And...wow do they get salty about it.
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@Krazzik said:
Compared to Swamp Monster Hag, Snowman Dredge and Scarecrow Kate they are pretty low effort it's true, I guess Lunar New Year just isn't an event they wanna put that much effort into? Like Anniversary, Halloween and Christmas seem to be their main things. I'd of course love better free skins for this event but I'm just happy the envelopes will be back.
Also Haddie is not, infact, a baddie.
Snowman Dredge has basically made him my new main overnight. I hate his Cucumber The Conqueror design, but holy crap is he a fun killer.
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@Firellius said:
If we're not allowed to use DS, we'll just use Prove Thyself instead.
...DS is still a perfectly fine perk. Hell, I think I saw it in nearly every Community Cup game.
@C3Tooth said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Y484PZW7VUG1/image.png
If anyone feel the reason why survivors using Gen boost stuff is a mystery.
...Sort of.
But it's also a bit of an oversimplification.
Most of the really reliable regression perks got nerfed, with the only outliers being CoB and Erupt. But gens didn't really get slowed much, especially when you consider how many nutty faster gen perks were added or buffed out the wazoo.
Add to this the fact that info perks start getting redundant, or are nearly useless on certain killers and that chase perks, with maybe two exceptions, being pretty mediocre.
So killers bring regression because they might not have any fantastic options, and because gens are flying right now.
If you want killers to stop running deep regression, you'll need to nerf faster gen items/perks, nerf regression perks further and then buff gen times substantially. And that's probably never going to happen.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322558#Comment_3322558
It doesn’t matter if a killer understands the bloodlust mechanic; it functions regardless. This mechanic that increases a killer’s speed while they’re in uninterrupted pursuit of a survivor matters because if they’re tunneling a survivor out, it helps. It’s wholly designed to do that. And it honestly doesn’t matter if that killer has good add-ons, bad add-ons, or no add-ons at all. They can still tunnel a good survivor out. Because at the end of the day not even the best survivors can 1v1 a killer. As an aside, yea, Ayrun has run killers all match. He’s also been tunneled out and died to killers who weren’t very efficient, skilled, or strong. Because tunneling a player out—especially if they’re solo—is supremely easy.
Yes, but he's losing to probably a 6,000 hour killer as a 10,000 hour survivor. And a big part of that comes down to him being distracted, weird map RNG or the killer just lucking out. Ayrun is frigging ridiculous.
He's not losing to a 10 hour killer unless his cat is attempting to eat his keyboard.
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@Pulsar said:
Then something just snapped, something inside of me.
I didn't care anymore.
I didn't care about being better than Kakarot, I didn't care about being a super saiyan.
I didn't care if I lived. I didn't care about anything!
And then.. It happened
HAH
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
Whether you're a killer main or survivor main, the truth is always the same; people suck and will be toxic whether they win or lose. If they lose, they'll complain about your perks, your playstyle, your killer, your/their teammates, the map, the tiles, the game's code not being functional, or anything in between. If they win, they will belittle you, humiliate you as much as they can, all to stroke their tiny egos with a meaningless win on a casual online game.
So godspeed. Run Eruption, run DH, use your best addons, bring BNPs, bring Adrenaline, bring flashlights. Don't try to bother yourself with the enjoyment of the person on the other side of the screen, because I guarantee you they don't care about yours. Don't stroke the fires of toxicity, but don't let anyone - not in post game, not in this forum, not in any discord server - tell you how you should play the game. If you play to win, play to win. If you play to meme, play to meme. At the end of the day, you're meant to derive enjoyment from the game. If you're doing so, then keep doing what you're doing, and let the whiners whine.
Eh...I've never been a fan of this mindset.
The reality is that the toxic players do tend to stick in your mind, that's not the vast majority of the playerbase. And there is always another person behind the screen.
Bring any perks you want, but I do try to remember that toxicity breeds more toxicity, but being a fun, friendly killer/survivor tends to push that mindset forward - even if one person is salty in postgame.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322081#Comment_3322081
Eh, kinda. Survivors are gonna run anti camping and anti tunneling perks until those stop being 'efficient strategies'. Chase/exhaustion perks will always be popular. The perks may rotate a bit, but the gameplay won't.
I'd say killer meta absolutely changed. It used to be the mantra that 'gens aren't worth kicking', but now a lot of killers prioritize kicking gens over chases. Even info perks like BBQ were replaced by nowhere to hide or a fourth slowdown, so the entire build revolves around regression instead hooks or pressure. Both perks and gameplay have shifted there.
I wish survivors ran more anti-camp and anti-tunnel perks, but I barely see them. I sometimes see Unbreakable and DS, but the latter is seldom used as an anti-tunnel perk and more to bodyblock with impunity.
@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322076#Comment_3322076
Because some how they nerfed Botany, Selfcare, Pharmacy.
While Solidarity, Resurgence, Reactive healing is useless to Haemorrhage.
I dont use COH, but its understandable
Botany barely got a nerf, it's more that it allowed insanely fast medkits that seldom ran out. It's still a very nice perk.
Selfcare shouldn't have gotten nerfed. But...ugh, if we're going back and forth on this, killer has way more of those cases.
The rest...I don't think anyone ever used those.
That said:
@StupidBanana said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322072#Comment_3322072
Hope dead hard or circle of healing will get nerfed.
Survivor no variety , They use only CoH or DH again and agains.
CoH needs a nerf. It's just a problem perk and I see it every single game.
DH is...annoying, and maybe a touch OP, but I do see other Ex perks and I still like my Lithe, as DH falls apart against instadown killers or certain addons/perks.
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@Sanna said:
I recently tried getting a friend into this game and they played it for a few weeks before uninstalling. They said earning points is too slow (even though I told them the grind was worse before, but they often get tunneled out despite my best attempts to bodyblock) and they can't play killer because they get extreme motion sickness from the first person POV. I told them the game might be more enjoyable if they learned to loop a bit but they said this game isn't "casual" enough for them even though I feel like it's still pretty casual in the end aside from the pip/grades system, and regardless of how some players like to sweat like their lives depend on it.
I'm curious to hear some opinions though: do you think DBD is casual and what makes it casual or uncasual for you guys?
No.
Not at all.
Taking the grind out of the equation, I've got maybe 1,000 hours spread over survivor and killer and I still feel like I've only recently got 'intermediate' on killer and am still an awful survivor.
It's a game you'll need hundreds of hours before you'll find your feet.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322656#Comment_3322656
I've had a plague that didn't know how to play loops and beat me because she did a 3 gen and 2 survivors didn't know how to beat it. It was basically a 2v1 which we eventually lost.
I would take what OP is saying as extremely exaggerated. I can't think of a game where a diamond player can struggle vs bronze players, but in dbd you can lose games if you arn't bringing a build that doesn't rely on the other survivors for escape in soloq. MM in this game is all over the place. You can get games where people never do gens and the next where players are doing nothing but gens.
RBMM was 100% better imo. Soloq players would literally face nothing but release spirit, 3 blink Nurse, and insta saw billy while still ranking up. You would actually get games at the start that were hard for both sides and then it would go into more chill games later in the month. It gave you options if you wanted to play sweaty or more chill. I can see maybe players that were newer at that time creeping up to r1 and have a bad time. The argument I would say for that is every game for soloq is a bad time for me. At least back then you felt like there was more control on what you were looking for.
If those survivors didn't know how to beat a 3gen...then that's a 'them' problem. But you say she didn't know how to chase, which means she was chasing. So it wasn't a '3gen at the start'...meaning that you essentially 3genned yourselves.
The first sentence of the RBMM stuff was precisely my experience - just smurfs and Iri/purple survivors stomping me flat. I see that so, so much less under SBMM.
You say 'chill', and what I often hear when people say that about RBMM is that they were facing players far weaker than they were. Here's the thing about DbD - if you aren't playing 'sweaty' and still winning the majority of your games, then your MMR isn't high enough and it'll eventually even out.
That's...whataboutism. But whatever. Solo queue has always been bad. It was bad under ranks and it's bad under MMR. This game cannot be balanced around solo, because then SWF becomes nearly unbeatable.
Survivors can choose to play in a SWF. Killers cannot choose. Thus, the game has to be balanced, at least partially, around the potential of killers getting an SWF.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322607#Comment_3322607
A player much worse than one other player 100% can win. A mediocre 500 hour killer can beat a soloq team better than them by just doing a 3 gen strat. Even if you don't want to do that strat you can just ignore the one player and focus on the other 3.
SBMM is so bad that when they did a stream years before doing it they said they wouldn't do kills and escapes because it would be bad for the game. RBMM is objectively better than SBMM because RBMM would let you play on reset and sweat and then go into more chill games later in the month. It also had survivor agency unlike this trash system that requires you to rely on the other 3 survivors to gain mmr. The only time RBMM was worse than what we have now is when they removed the reset.
If you mean 'stake out a 3gen at the start and literally just run the timer down, not making any effort to chase and just pushing people off gens' then sure...but that's basically an exploit, as Peanits recently confirmed and will get you banned. You may as well say 'well, anyone can win by hacking'.
If they aren't doing that, and are actually chasing/downing then a SWF can absolutely beat them. And no, we aren't talking about 'better', we're talking about a team of 10,000 hour players versus a 10 hour killer. Those are the parameters the OP established.
Even in solo queue, that 10 hour killer will lose. I don't even think they'd have many decent perks yet.
RBMM...hahahaha no.
I started under RBMM and it was a special kind of hell. Monthly reset? It's chaos for a week. Play a lot? It really doesn't take many lucky breaks to get into purples, and then you're facing Iris. RBMM was crapola, unless you were a veteran, and...then it was crapola for your opponents.
SBMM isn't perfect, but dammit is it an improvement.
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@Marik1987 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322337#Comment_3322337
Just wait 5 days and u will see for yourself.
It's not coming in 5 days.
@Marik1987 said:
I am done with this. I dont care anymore. If u play at the daytime (right now), you have literally no chance of winning against these squads I get. They do 5 gens in under 5mins while Teabagging mid-chase and Bodyblocking. Always 2 guys at the gens, tunneling them asap, ignoring everything else. Prove Thyself, Commodious Toolbox, Boon Circle of Healing and the most broken sht I have even seen... new Deadhard.
Its time to move on to Nurse every fckin game, cant wait for this Midchapter and her 7-Blinks.
If I want to play something outside of Nurse, I should wait for the evening, when all the noobs come online.
Deadhard BROKEN as fck, 3rd health-state for everyone. In these lobbies, they almost never miss the timing. Adrenaline at the end = Free Escape, because the others have already 99% the gate till this chased survivor is there. Dont forget the Free Escape off hook with 10sec Basekit-BT and Bodyblocks, Reassurance to coordinate perfectly. Its absolutely impossible for killers to do sht then.
I can really understand why EVERYONE is tunneling hardcore and says, without Tunneling its absolutely impossible to win. I just need to watch "Comp.DBD" to see this one playstyle in every single game to get at least a 2K.
Now, with Basekit Unbreakable incoming, this will become absolute garbage. One "Killer-Patch 6.1.0", while survivors gets a buffed Deadhard, a 10sec Basekit-BT, still sick gen-speeds with their OP-Toolboxes, hell no. This game - for killers - has become way more worse than it was before.
"But Marik, the killrates have increased, so killers needs nerfs, not buffs". Yes, they increased because Noobs cannot handle Eruption etc., because they dont know when to "let the gen go". In my lobbies, you have that little things called Voice-Call: "Im going down, let go". Boom!
Tunneling, Camping, Tunneling, Camping, NOED. Thats it nowadays. You did a splendid job BHVR, but unfortunately, BOTH Sides are pissed now. But hey, soon even Solo-Survivors, which granted killers better stats, will become more efficient with your Icon-System. While all that happens, most of the killers are totally useless against these squads I encounter. I have 2.200 hours in this game, why the hell do I get guys with 9.000 hours, 6.000 hours, playing like Comp.-Teams, tunneling Gens asap.
Cant wait for that Basekit Unbreabakle. "But think about the new players and the casuels u would like to say?"
I dont go against these survivors, so why should I care?
Hex-Builds are garbage, because the totems are in front of a roof, so everybody can see them. Oh dont forget that awesome Totem in Shack everyone literally spawns at it.
You wonder why killers bring 3 Gen-Regression-Perks every single match. I will lift the secret: "BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO!" We dont have anything left besides Pain Resonance and the Call of Brine/Eruption-Combo. Nothing. Playing without Gen-Regression? Sure, I can do that, but I know the outcome by default.
@Survivors: Dont blame the killer for tunneling every game. This game is created to do it. Tunnel one out before the 4th gen is done. Tunnel the 2nd out before the exit gates are opened. Use the Altruism survivors love to do to grab someone off the hook and go for the last person. Thats the way. Mixing hooks? Dont tunnel? Yea, if u play against noobs who fail skillchecks, yes. Besides that, mixe them if u want to lose.
Hell, give us a fckin break, please!!!
Okay, a few things.
- Yes, sweaty SWFs are still obnoxious.
- New DH is strong, possibly OP - but it's a breath of fresh air compared to the septic tank the original was.
- Genrush is a thing again, and it's generally a mix of Hyperfocus/Stakeout/Toolbox.
- Some of the killer roster needs some major love (looking at you Trapper, Demo and co.) and a few maps need some work, but killers have never been stronger than they are now, at least not in recent memory.
- Yes, hexes are crap now.
- Kill rates went up at high MMR too.