Skitten56
Skitten56
About
- Username
- Skitten56
- Joined
- Visits
- 1,949
- Last Active
Comments
-
At least weak Fog Vials with unlimited charges could still be used as budget Distortion. Now they don't do anything in chase but you also can't use it as much as a utility to hide your aura or scratchmarks. 2 uses is just not good enough to justify over other items.
Something has to give if these items are to be useful. I personally hope they reverse the fog density nerfs and then balance the items by giving each Fog Vial its own unique # of charges based on how effective the Fog Vial is.
-
@Marc_go_solo said:
Definite overkill with this update. I would have at least thought they'd align it with Key or Map charges, so maybe 4-6 goes, depending on rarity.
I hear what they're saying about balance, but it's clear even in theory 2 charges is not enough, especially with the weakening of opacity.
100% hope they do your suggestion.
The number of charges a Fog Vial has should depend on its rarity and how dense the Fog is. -
I think it would be best if you undid the previous nerfs and then balanced the density of the fog and the number of charges based on add-on and item rarity.
So if you have the best Fog Vial lets say it has 2 charges, and if you use the iri-add-on to make it even better it gets reduced to 1 charge so you have 1 time amazing use. But if you use the weakest Fog Vial, lets say it has a default of 4 charges, because even with the best add-ons, it still isn't as good as the best one.
This would allow BHVR to balance the vials based on how the character is using them. The stronger chase focused Fog Vials would be much more limited in use, whereas the weaker Fog Vials that don't block all view but still hide scratch marks/auras could have more charges allowing for creative use without blocking the killer from seeing anything.
-
I think Boons are generally in an okay place right now.
Boon: Illumination however makes me so depressed and disappointed in BHVR. I get that they want it to be a new player friendly perk but it could also have some value for experience players if they buffed it a bit.
If they instead changed the secondary effect from,
- "If you have a lit Boon Totem, you cleanse or bless Totems 10% faster"
to now being,
- If you have a lit Boon Totem, you bless Totems 100% faster
then it would be useful as a method of transferring a boon from a safe location to a high risk high reward location and help justify the boon set-up investment time.
Or maybe give it a secondary effect as a trap Boon where it works a bit like Blastmine so that when the killer snuffs the Boon, it stuns and blinds them. After all it is Boon Illumination.
-
I think Chest builds could be a lot more viable if they added at least 1 or 2 more chest per trial, and also buffed the perk Specialist to give an additional charge per token. The Appraisal buff was a huge boost to towards making Chest builds useful in matches as it helps with the critical shortage of chests.
I completely agree with @sizzlingmario4. The main issue right now for chest builds is the lack of chests and as a result, any chest build basically requires Appraisal. Chest perks are already pretty weak and barely break even imo given they use 1 of 4 valuable perk slots, so giving more opportunities to use said perks wouldn't hurt.
Given that Chests no longer take priority over killer objects, there shouldn't be a huge issue with adding a few more per trial. Also adding more chests on maps would also make killer perks like Hoarder and Human Greed more useful.
-
@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980693#Comment_3980693
Everybody agrees people who don't deserve it should not get punished, but there is no harm in getting flagged.
You're probably right, but it would be nice if BHVR could make it didn't flag in the first place. Like there is no way a survivor could actually get themselves killed in under a minute, Would be nice if the system could recognize that and not punish them.
The system is never gonna work. Players give up all the time and aren't hit with it. It only seems to be popping off when players are dealing with extreme instances of tunneling and cheating where they aren't at fault, but the system still flags them with bias.
Yeah, that is pretty why the system has been bothering me. This is the first time it has affected me personally but I've seen multiple posts of it hitting others in undeserved situations.
-
@Emeal said:
Did you lose grade Yes or Not?
Not yet but if a person got a few unlucky a few games back to back it is possible. I hear that getting tunneled out quickly also still applies it. So it is not outside the realm of possibility of getting a few bad games.
Your insinuation that it doesn't really matter because I did not lose Grade progress from this one even is irrelevant and not the point, even if it is unlikely to happen for the average player.
The point is that this system shouldn't punish or build progress towards punishing players that get killed 20 seconds into the match by a cheater, or those who get tunneled out quickly by a strong killer.
-
Tomes definitely felt more satisfying to do, but yeah I get the feeling BHVR didn't want to support and do maintenance for all the old challenges.
I believe they mentioned having extra special challenges along side quests in the near future which would be great. A new set of difficult challenges outside of the regular rift quests would be very welcome.
I want BHVR to add some actually challenging challenges again so I can test myself. Also really hope they bring back stuff like Orange Glyphs. It is fine if they reset every new rift for maintenance purposes, just give me something interesting to do other than hook survivors x times, or do x amount of gens.
-
Remove her lullaby
Disagree. Instead make it non-directional map-wide so VTR doesn't make her stealth useless.
Remove lock-on limit
Could go either way on this one. It would help but I don't think it would fix the main issue with her against teams that know her counterplay and shut her down.
Add-ons (not really just me ranting about iri tape)
I don't want BHVR to rework Iri-tape. I actually love the design principle of it. Release Onryo could be played as a high mobility killer because survivors wanted to avoid turning off TVs. However with the reworks survivors will basically always turn off TVS. This add-on is essentially the only thing that makes her feel like old Onryo mobility-wise. However it is flawed.
A letter to BHVR:
BHVR please realize the massive design flaw within Iri-Videotape. The add-on is designed to change up her playstyle for a mobility focus. The add-on makes it so TVs don't turn off when she teleports which in theory should give her really good map mobility. In exchange for TVs not turning off, BHVR did a fair trade off by removing her ability to apply condemn by teleporting.
The result should mean that she loses all her condemn pressure and game slowdown in exchange for map mobility. HOWEVER, in practice, it results in her having no condemn pressure and slowdown while also having limited map mobility. Why? Because survivors can just turn off the TV (which they see all the auras for even though there is no condemn threat) risk free. The moment survivors realize you have this add-on, they will just aggressively shut off your TVs without ever worrying about getting condemned. This leaves Onryo with NO condemn pressure and very limited map mobility as the only TVs which will ever be on will generally be away from where all the survivors are.
BHVR please fix this, it is really simple. Do just one of the following changes:
- When using Iridescent Videotape add-on, survivors can no longer see the auras of TVs.
- This would make it harder for survivors to systematically turn off her TVs, resulting in her being without a power for most of the match due to the add-on. Instead survivors would have to pay attention and seek out TVs to turn them off, thus slowing down their ability to completely shutdown her power.
- When using the Iridescent Videotape add-on, when a survivor is carrying a tape, until they drop-off their tape, they can no longer interact with TVs other than their drop-off TV.
- This would allow survivors to counter the add-on like normal, but now they would have to do tape runs in order to turn off TVs, greatly reducing the effectiveness of 1 survivors running around the map disabling her TVs and resulting in her being powerless due to the add-on. With this change Onryo would either have mobility or at least get some slowdown, unlike currently where survivors will just take away her mobility at no risk or cost.
- When using the Iridescent Videotape add-on, survivors that grab a tape get ticking condemn at a rate of "X" until they drop-off their tape.
- This would balance out the risk reward of the add-on. By adding a threat to doing tape runs, survivors will no longer be able to freely just turn off her TVs at will resulting in her being powerless due to the add-on. With this change Onryo would either have mobility or at least get some slowdown and condemn pressure, unlike currently where survivors will just take away her mobility at no risk or cost.
Just simple changes like these would drastically make Iri-tape the mobility add-on it was designed to be instead of a survivor add-on which it currently is.
- When using Iridescent Videotape add-on, survivors can no longer see the auras of TVs.
-
I actually like her mori though. Simple but cool. If BHVR is going to add new stuff for her, they should replace existing content. Add a new mori to a new skin or something but please don't remove what we have for those who like it.
Her ambush charge time is actually fine now imo. If it was faster I think it would get pretty oppressive.
Pretty much no chance BHVR considers making Rule Set No.2 basekit. It would be pretty strong and it punishes newer players which is something they are very much against recently (See Onryo's TV auras always being on when in range for survivors). I'm just glad they still allow it as an add-on because given their design and balancing philosophy recently, I feel like they're more likely to remove it than make it basekit.
-
I've been trying it myself and have come to basically the same conclusions. Range is too short, duration is too short, and you can't run add-ons to fix both which leave it pretty useless.
Worst part is sometimes when I use it if the killer is close to me but behind a wall, it won't show their aura at all. Idk if it is a bug or a range issue. It can be hard to pay attention if the beam is close enough mid-chase, but it definitely feels like it is not functioning as it should sometimes.
-
@ChaosWam said:
I'm just gonna say it, we kinda have to blame ourselves.
At least, all of us who demanded they keep haste stacking as a thing. Sure, BHVR should have known haste clown would be a problem, but the haste stacking is REALLY making it worse.
My complaints about Made For This before the nerf were about this exact situation too, either side, haste stacking ruins the loop-based meta this game has evolved around.Haste stacking is mostly fine as long as a delicate balance is maintain. It adds build variety and generally isn't a problem.
Notice how before the Clown changes, Clown was fine and only a select few would complain about them.
The issue isn't haste stacking, it is the changes to Clown making Yellow Bottles vastly over-perform and not require skillful play with both bottles like old Clown. BHVR should just revert all the Clown changes and then start over with small buffs like the increased reloading speed.
-
Fog Vials should be strong if they are to be competitive and worth bring over other items. I don't know how much these nerfs will affect them but I am worried they might go too far.
Ideally Fog Vials should be balanced by limiting the number of charges and having the good add-on increase the cool-down for them. This would let them be strong but also make it so killers will only see them a few times a match.
Personally I think it would be fine if the better Fog Vials were limited to say 1-2 uses and performed very well while the weaker ones like the Brown Fog Vial could just be a minor annoyance/distraction but have say 5-6ish uses and shorter cool-downs.
-
Not going to play against bots. I either play with a Hoarder build or anti-Clown build, or just not play after I get sick of he abuse.
If the next hotfix doesn't fix a good chunk of these issues I'm going to be seriously disappointed in BHVR. I really wanted to buy the new Lara skins but no way I'm giving them anymore of my money until they can prove they can restore the game to a playable state in a timely manner.
That said, if Streetwise isn't killswitched or fixed in the next few days I'm done giving BHVR money until they re-earn my trust by fixing all the lingering bugs that have been in this game for months. It is just beyond embarrassing at this point and I don't know why we put up with it.
-
@GenJockeyNance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977063#Comment_3977063
I think they had an idea, a vision for what they wanted to do - I believe there's this idea/theory floating around (don't mark me on this I could be very wrong and if so, feel free to correct me) they wanted this special tile to spawn in any map if a walking dead character was in play and it didn't work out resulting in leaving.... This as the final result. I would've rather them be honest that their vision didn't work and didn't want to give us an incomplete map, doing the IP dirty so they're pulling it to rework which would be released at a later date but nope. Never happened. Instead we get stuck with this most basic, beta, ugly play test I have ever seen in this game.
I hope they can get special tiles working. It would be really cool if they would go back to chapters that didn't get maps and add them as well. For example for Sadako Rising having a tile spawn with her Well if she is the killer would be pretty nice.
-
Imo the biggest issue with her design right now is how engaging in the counterplay also disables her mobility. It allows good survivors to hurt her on 2 fronts. The balance of risk and reward is not even. Survivors turn off TVs for little risk since doing tape runs are as safe as ever, but they get lots of reward for this action as they avoid condemn and also shutdown her mobility.
Her release version was the opposite, where survivors didn't want to grab tapes to avoid condemn. This meant that TVs would be left turn on giving her mobility when she didn't have condemn pressure. It also allowed survivors to do a risk assessment to whether condemn risk from turning off a TV was worth it for disabling her ability to teleport to their gen. This was much healthier for her balance than what we have now.
Now that we have map-wide condemn, returning to the old system would be pretty OP, so I don't see it happening. Too many players would be unwilling to go back to single target condemn over map-wide condemn.
It would be nice if the mobility add-on Iri-videotape didn't let survivors also completely shutdown her mobility since the add-on removes her condemn power. It is silly that the add-on removes all condemn threat to survivors but still allows them to freely and safely turn off multiple of her TVs which completely shuts down her mobility.
I wished they had just made the of iri tape basekit, gave her the pallet stunn immunity, condemned lock in and some number buffs back then. She would have been a perfect killer.
100% this. This is pretty much all we wanted, but BHVR has a nasty habit of doing changes that are so limited they are meaningless or so heavy handed they completely charge or break things. Unfortunately their reworks for Onryo fell more into the last category.
-
@ThatRyanB said:
I appreciate the different perspectives in here! If you don't mind me interjecting to ask two questions (since I'd love to share this feedback with the team):
- What is one change that would increase your enjoyment of the Map item rework?
- What about for the Key item rework?
Charges! Both of these items went from being able to be activated numerous times per trial to only a select few uses. Yes you now get a set duration after each use which lasts a while, but usually you don't need that whole duration to get the information you needed. As a result, both of these items get less total value of a trial than compared to before, thus making them less useful.
Maps:
I've tried using maps in a chase build but it is just not worth it over other items atm. This is especially noticeable when using the add-on Crimson Stamp to reveal the killers aura. I even used the add-on to increase the aura read time but it is just so underwhelming. Either the range is too limited or the aura reveal feels to limited. The cool-down hurts the add-on as it would be nice to be able to charge it up again once the killer aura reading runs out. In general either the charges are too limited to feel like I get good value, and the maps are not strong enough to justify over toolboxes or medkits in most cases.
It would be nice if maybe one of the maps functioned like the old maps (but doesn't allow add-ons for obvious reasons) so people who enjoyed them still can. Especially for the Bloodsense Maps where leaving Pools of Blood behind you allowed for fun mindgames. The old tracking ability of maps was also nice and it is a shame to see it go.
Keys:
For keys, the main issue is the number of charges due to reasons stated above.
I do like the ability to open chests. Lara's perk Specialist and the new buffed Appraisal combined, actually make chest builds somewhat viable which is great. The new key change helps waste less time which is nice.
However, outside of that specific use and hatch opening, Keys are worse and less useful than before. Now they have built in survivor aura reading but that was very easily achieve by add-ons before, and now the ability to read survivor auras is heavily restricted compared to before due to how the charges work now, instead of 30-ish readings on a good Key, now you are limited to only 6, or 8 if you bring add-ons. This is even worse for Blood Amber add-on.
Blood Amber
The main strength of Keys in the past aside from opening hatch was the Blood Amber add-on. However as mentioned above this has been nerfed and is no nearly as useful compared to before due to the following 2 issues.
- Survivors get less aura reading time from Blood Amber now. (4 uses with the best key is really low considering the killer can also see you!)
- Ideally remove the add-on debuff of reducing charges, or increase Key charges overall.
- The killer can now see you back when using the add-on.
- Given how few charges it has currently, this feels unnecessary. Ideally either make it one way aura reading or increase the aura reading duration.
To make this add-on more balance I would fix either 1 of these 2 or both. Resolving at least 1 of these I believe would make Blood Amber more useful again, and thus Keys more useful.
-
In their defense, maps are probably the hardest thing for them to balance in the entire game. A lot of thought and effort I'm sure has to go into tile spawns and how strong certain loops / main building will be in respect to those possible spawns given the map size. Not to mention how various aspects of map design all affect the killer roster in different ways.
That being said, they do seem to be especially bad at it. Just looking at the most recent Haddonfield rework is eye opening. That map did neeed changes but BHVR went over the top and did too many things at once. They made it smaller, while also nerfing the houses, as well as removing houses among other things. Now it is probably the most killer sided map in the game. I guess it is no longer survivor sided anymore though so mission accomplished for them.
-
@SkeletalElite said:
Would be a great opportunity to declutter the junk on bloodweb. Move the map offerings to brown, get rid of all the garbage brown offerings that you'd never use and let the map offerings take their place as blood web filler and hte massively overinflated blue category gets shrunk down.
The Brown BP offerings 100% need to go. So much pointless clutter. I don't even care if BHVR compensates us with BP, they are useless and it would be nice to get more useful browns in the bloodweb.
-
Please do bring it back BHVR, it only has to be a few days but I would love to see it again. Also give Meg her My Little Oni hair as a special cosmetic.
-
I play a lot of Pig and while it is true the dash add-ons feel needed to get the best value with her dash. I do like how the add-ons basically set you up to play either trap head-pop/slowdown Pig, or dash Pig.
It is like picking your flavor of Pig, pick one and be strong in it while falling back on the other. Probably more balanced than Pig being really strong at both. I don't think she would be busted like that, however I would hate for BHVR to nerf either her dash or traps to compensate for it.
In short, I am satisfied with how she is atm. Probably best to let the new buffs stay as they are for now and gather data on the numbers to see if she needs more later.
-
It is getting close to breaking for me. I love this game but I'm not sure I want to keep putting money into it with how everything I love is bugged, breaking or rendered unusable. It is insane for example that people can pay for cosmetics that get bugged and not fixed in a timely manner. It is insane that some killers powers have been bugged for months now with seemingly no clear timetable for BHVR fixing them or even seeming to care.
Now it also seems like BHVR wants us all to log in daily like a job in order to finish rifts doing daily challenges instead of being able to play longer sessions during our free days. The moment I can't finish the rift on my own time is the day I stop caring about doing the rift and buying passes. I don't want to feel like I have to do a job away from my job daily just to keep up. FOMO stuff really irritates me and at a certain point it is just not worth the hassle to even bother with it.
I hope they slow down on content a bit and actually fix the game. Right now the only thing killing DBD is BHVR themselves.
-
They needed to be nerfed a bit for sure. Getting blinded from behind was absurd. However in typical BHVR fashion, they went too far with their changes and now flashbangs feel practically useless. It is sad but that is the state of them atm.
-
It is honestly embarrassing at this point. I'm pretty sure this whole obsession with Jim exists because people are just so used to all the constant bugs during matches with every new patch, so suddenly having a bug in the loading screen is novel and worth talking about.
Seriously though, they need to get their stuff together and fix these bugs instead of pushing out new content.
-
@CrossTheSholf said:
For what it's worth, us clown enjoyers did not want this.
Yeah its crazy how BHVR took a fun engaging killer like Clown which required skillful use of bottles, and then turned Clown into throw yellow bottles at feet for haste with little skill or effort. Clown had a small group of people that loved his power and knew inside and out, and BHVR should respect them by reverting his power back to how it was.
As an Onryo main I felt this during our reworks. 1st rework was generally strong, but absolutely boring to play imo compared to release Onryo. I still miss having to strategically teleport to get condemn and also having survivors countering condemn not disabling my mobility.
Its changes like these that really make me question if BHVR doesn't play or understand their game before making decisions and forcing them on us. Really wish they put more thought into their balancing process.
-
Definitely against removing them from the game. They add much needed variety to the survivor role and the game overall. I think them being strong is fine. The bring back and element of stealth to the game and makes it so that the item is not trash filling the bloodweb.
However they should have less usability. Either cap how many time they can be used, or make the cooldowns longer. I personally think that the add-ons should affect the cooldown time.
-
@Hiagmsp said:
.I’ve been a Sadako main ever since she was released — in fact, I started playing the game because of her, as she’s always been my favorite horror icon. However, I’d like to suggest a few changes to make her feel more threatening.
MANIFESTATION / DEMANIFESTATION:
Change: Make the lullaby while demanifested spread across the entire map.
Goal: Survivors should still be aware that she’s demanifested, but they shouldn’t be able to tell that she’s nearby just by the lullaby getting louder.
TVs/Tapes
Change: Completely remove the survivors’ ability to see the auras of nearby active TVs.
Goal: This would make the TVs more unpredictable, forcing survivors to search more carefully and increasing their tension.
Change: Increase the interaction time to insert or retrieve cursed videotapes from TVs to 2 seconds (as it was originally).
Goal: Give Sadako more time to teleport to a TV before being interrupted, and prevent survivors from easily returning tapes right in her face during chases.
Change: Survivors can only carry one tape at a time.
Goal: To prevent survivors from completely negating your Condemned pressure and map control.
CONDAMNATION:
Change: Remove the mechanic that blocks Condemned progress when hooking a survivor.
Goal: This mechanic works against the most effective gameplay style for The Onryō — focusing on Condemnation — and slows her down unnecessarily, especially considering her extremely weak chase potential.
Change: Survivors holding a cursed videotape should passively gain 1 stack of Condemned every 24 seconds.
Goal: Make cursed tapes a real and constant threat for those who carry them. This also pays homage to the original films, where failing to copy and spread the tape within 24 hours brought people closer to death — in the game, this would be 24 seconds without delivering the tape.
I believe these changes would make The Onryō stronger without making her overpowered. They would reduce her dependency on map layouts or survivor mistakes, while enhancing her unique Condemnation mechanic and creating more consistent pressure throughout the match.
Change: Make the lullaby while demanifested spread across the entire map.
100% should do this. She gets punished hard by the Visual Terror Radius feature and currently it essentially means she has no stealth. Good change, BHVR please do this.
Change: Completely remove the survivors’ ability to see the auras of nearby active TVs.
BHVR would never do this due to how punishing it would be to new players or players who don't know her power. I agree it hurts her against good survivors but I can't see them changing this.
Counter suggestion: Make it so survivors carrying a tape can only see the aura of their target TV for their tape drop off.
This would mean survivors would see TVs at first and understand what to do but also make it so they have to drop off the tape in order to get information on TVs afterwards.
Change: Increase the interaction time to insert or retrieve cursed videotapes from TVs to 2 seconds (as it was originally).
I agree, tapes are too free right now. Should be reverted but I also think other changes are much more important than this one.
Change: Survivors can only carry one tape at a time.
Goal: To prevent survivors from completely negating your Condemned pressure and map control.
I disagree, I think it is an important part of her counterplay and survivors. It is balanced by survivors getting a stack per TV they turn off.
HOWEVER, The Iridescent Videotape add-on removes condemn as part of her power AND makes TVs turn off for longer when survivors grab tapes. This is EXTREMELY punishing to Onryo against good teams as they will leave her without mobility and without a power due to the add-on.
It should 100% be addressed so that when running the Iridescent Videotape add-on, survivors cannot turn off other TVs while holding a tape. Or at the very least make it so they can't see TV auras or only see them when NOT holding a tape. Since she no longer has any condemn threat this should be well balanced.
It is crazy to me that there are killers with equal or better mobility in this game that also have lethality, but Onryo's mobility add-on comes with massive downside of removing condemn threat (which is good for balance), but also lets survivors completely turn off that mobility as well leaving her as a true m1 killer.
-
I actually like the swamp map. Maybe rework some of the tiles but I really like the uniqueness of the map. Although many seem to dislike it, the tall grass adds variety to the game, which I enjoy. The map plays differently to others which is a good thing and gives stealth killers and trap killers a chance to shine.
I'm sure I'll get downvoted but In my opinion the worst thing is how a lot of people seem to want everything to play same at the expense of variety. Killer powers that force survivors to interact with the game in a different way such as Onryo or Tombstone Myers get unwarranted hate for this reason. People just need to learn to adapt to different aspects of the game, and not try to play every map or killer the same. Variety adds fun and replay-ability.
-
These would be a nice changes to the map. Balanced Landing is just so map and rng dependent as it is. It is the main reason I stopped using it. I thought for sure on the new map Balanced Landing could be used on the back dock and rear windows but it just doesn't.
It would be great if BHVR added an additional effect to it to make up for this inconsistency. I personally think the perk should reduce all the survivor's falling sounds all the time, regardless of whether the survivor is exhausted or not. This would at least give it more usability, though not really much to make up for perks weak points.
-
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959788#Comment_3959788
Thanks for the clarification. One pallet is so bad especially when requiring chests, which only 3 spawn on a map. Either make it gen progress or chase time or don‘t give it a requirement. Party pallets aren‘t strong. They are pretty bad and very easy to deal with as killer.
It's a delicate balance for BHVR due to how strong pallets can be. Such changes to pallet gameplay need to be handled with care.
However I do agree that doing 2 chests for 1 party pallet seems pretty weak. I would reduce it to 1 chest or change the activation condition like you suggest. Or make it give a regular pallet over a party pallet; this would be strong but since a survivor is using a perk slot for it and likely will only be able to do it once per match due to the number of chests, I think it would be balanced.
-
Regarding Keys and Map changes, I like the general concept of what you are going for but I feel like you have missed the mark a bit.
I won't talk about Maps since Keys are the bigger issue but overall the changes to Maps and Keys add nice variety and interactions to these items which will make them more interesting and create fun uses which should increase how often these items are brought into trials.
However some of these changes, particularly the changes to Keys, also removes what made these items really competitive. Not many people brought Keys, but a Iri- Skeleton Key with Blood Amber add-on was actually strong due to the one way aura reading on killers it gave survivors; this set-up put keys at equal level with good toolboxes or med-kits, making Keys competitive. By removing or nerfing these add-ons/interactions, in a way you are actually making Keys less useful than before even if they now have more interactions such as opening chests.
Iri-Skeleton Key from 30 sec of use to 6 changes, compared to Dull Key 5 sec of use to 5 charges makes Iri-keys feel much less useful than before. Also Blood Amber add-on being 2 way aura reading makes the add-on a whole lot weaker. Combined this causes some issues. Blood Amber add-on is the reason Keys were even competitive in the first place. By reworking this add-on you are actually nerfing keys overall and provide less reason to use them compared to Medkits and Toolboxes. Not to mention the add-on now reduces a Key's charges, which also makes Keys in general but particularly Skeleton Key already feels weaker than before. Why should I bring a Key now when other items can bring so much more value to a match, the answer used to be Blood Amber but now I don't see a strength other than free Bond perk which Keys already did before.
The new basekit aura reading on survivors is nice but this 100% could have just stayed an add-on that affects how the Key can be used. Add-ons manipulating a Keys abilities makes them more interesting. The chest interactions are interesting and open up more opportunities but overall I don't think many people will bring Key's for this, time spent opening chests is time not on objectives after all.
Overall I think the changes to Key's came from a good place and if they are implemented well, I think they will increase Key usage. However to me there seems to be even less reasons to bring a Key compared to before.
-
@Akumakaji said:
All this perks were balanced around the fact that they could stack with one another, so while its true that many would be bad now and in isolation, with this change I bet that we will see lots of changes coming and the numbers going up surprisingly high here and there. Batteries included might give suddenly a +10% speed boost around completed gens, which is now a significant boost, but because it doesn't stack with anything else, its probably okay. If what if Machine Learning gave a +12% boost? With the way it has to setup, I liked to use it a lot during the time it got buffed and comboed it with Rapid Brutality. With it being such a setup perk and gens rarely getting done one after another but in tandem, I don't remember a single instance where it proged more then two times in one game.
Without stacking, the perks new itentity will be centered around its core case, and thats a good thing.
I get what you're saying but another concern could be the downside to this.
If they buff all the perks to be strong as if they were stacked before, then players will have their "unfair" hard to counter haste at every activation, as opposed to having lots of small levels of haste throughout the match but only have really high haste at a few points when the activation conditions align right.
In short I suspect BHVR is aware of this and haste will never be as good as it was before while also ruining a lot of fun builds that were not even that good most of the time. In short, these changes you want to see in order to balance out the removal of stacking are probably never coming.
-
@Skillfulstone said:
It's concerning for the game as a whole to have such an approach to balance and this is beyond worrying for the future of perks in dbd.
Are they going to stop with haste or are they going to overall delete the very concept of perk synergy? Are we eventually going to only be allowed one Haste/Hinder perk, one gen regression/speed perk, one chase perk and one stealth perk? This would hurt build freedom a lot.
The kick limit already does a tiny bit of that since Eruption just can't be used with Surge if you don't want to accidentally hit the limit in record time and suddenly have a gen that you're basically forced to concede.
Even if they stopped there, it's still unhealthy, they're going to absolutely have to greatly buff these perks for those to be useful at all. By doing so Killers will essentially have easy access to large haste effects and while limited at one, it will still take only one perk slot. While Survivors will lose a whole niche kind of build, further reinforcing the "use only meta perks" trend and making the game more stale.
The fact that (presumably) perks wouldn't even stack with the various basekit Haste/Hinder that certain Killers have is even more limiting (I already hear Clown and Wraith crying in a corner, tons of add-ons invalidating perks and Wesker's infection officially being worthless with any Hinder perks) since that's an entire segment of a Killer's power that's made useless by a perk, why not play a stronger Killer and bring the same perk at that point? Killers shouldn't have part of their kit entirely invalidated by a category of perks, it's enough that some perks simply don't work together or can backfire.
A simple cap to Haste in order to avoid extreme situations where a Survivor can be faster than the Killer would be enough. And that would still allow buffs to Haste perks which are really weak (Dark Theory for example) and open the door to new perks without limiting perk options too much.
Killers powers and add-on 100% need to be taken into consideration and either buffed or allow them to stack with haste/hindrance perks.
A simple cap to Haste in order to avoid extreme situations where a Survivor can be faster than the Killer would be enough. And that would still allow buffs to Haste perks which are really weak (Dark Theory for example) and open the door to new perks without limiting perk options too much.
If they do insist on trying to limit haste stacking, I think a cap would be the best solution, rather than just destroying a bunch of fun combinations and builds.
-
@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912130#Comment_3912130
While yes it does remove synergy, it does so with the intention (key word intention, it requires accurate execution) that the perks will be able to stand on their own merits, as haste builds for both Survivor and Killer were gimmicks at best. Removing gimmick synergy that doesn't help you win much in the first place, in order to create more enjoyable perks on their own merits is absolutely the right direction.
There is a fundamental difference from a design standpoint between perks synergizing and perks requiring each other to even have a viable function. I'm totally fine with "haste builds" not being a thing. I'm excited about making builds centered around a single strong haste perk as the keystone of the build.
I WANT there to be only one regression perk if they were all buffed heavily to compensate. This is a really good direction for the game. If you can't stack 4 haste perks or 4 slowdown perks, build diversity goes UP, not down. You have MORE options, and each feel powerful enough to be worth the slot assuming BHVR balances well. And I don't think it's fair to just blindly assume that they won't.
The issue with the current PTB is that not enough perks have been adjusted.
The issue with the current PTB is that not enough perks have been adjusted.
Anyone following this game for a while easily predicted this would be the outcome. Balancing for BHVR seems to be trial and error, and they seem to have a history of pushing through changes that have problems and then figuring the rest out later.
As I said in another post, it'll probably be literal years before they finish slowly buffing all the perks and even then there will be a few that are forgotten and just ignored for even longer. All the while build diversity and the fun around it is going to be reduced as people are just going to pick the highest haste perk for the most common activation condition 9/10 times leave the rest in the dust. I hope people like slowdown and meta builds.
If they do force this change through, I think the best solution would be having haste from killer powers and add-ons as a separate kind of haste that can stack with haste perks. Basically just make it so haste perks can't stack, not all forms of haste.
-
First off, just do tapes and manage condemn. Basically never work a gen with an active TV (which you can see the auras of now) and you will be fine most of the time. Other than that do tape runs as needed.
As for teleport spam, she pretty much has to do that now to be viable with the rework.
With her release version there was a health balance of risk reward. Survivors could either turn off a TV to deny mobility, but have ticking condemn which they would eventully have to deal with. Or they could ignore the TV but risk Onryo showing up and chasing them. Either way Onryo either got condemn pressure or map mobility.
Now with current Onryo, survivors taking a tape denies her mobility and condemn. This means grabbing tapes is no longer a risk/reward trade off but instead just all reward and shuts down her power. As a result in many cases Onryo literally needs to teleport spam in order to keep TVs off so survivors with high condemn can't easily grab tapes and remove condemn. Once a survivor has a tape now, they basically are guaranteed to remove condemn as long as they are not injured and willing to in a worst case scenario trade a healthstate by removing condemn in her face and then getting hit.
This versions of Onryos risk/reward balance being in survivors favor means that she has to play in such a way to be viable. Using TVs just for mobility doesn't really work anymore since survivors are almost always going to try and turn off the TVs in their area (thanks to the auras). Condemn and teleport spam (to apply or deny tape pickups) is pretty much the only serious way to consistently play her thanks to BHVR's reworks.
-
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Players: OMG haste of broken, even 3% completely destroys the game.
Devs: we hear you, we deleted that perk.
Players: thanks.
Devs: actually, you have a point, we're fixing all of the haste interactions.
Players: wait, no.
The issue with release MFT was that its activation condition was too easy and given survivors vs killer sizes and the existence of 110 killers, the perk could feel pretty bad in the hands of good survivors. Stacking with Hope was awful to go against but it was an endgame combination so I didn't have an issue with it myself.
I'm, pretty confident BHVR is not going to take the time to properly balance out the removal of haste and hindrance stacking. The amount of killers with basekit effects, and then their add-ons, on top of perks is going to kill a lot of build variety if they don't get it right.
If I have an add-on that gives 5% haste, why run a perk that gives 7% even if it is stronger than before. People are just going to run the one that has the highest number for the activation condition that they run into the most and ignore all the rest.
Imo, removing haste stacking is going to be a horrible change for the game. I'll be glad if BHVR actually gets it right and it ends up being great of course, but given BHVR's track record at balancing this game I expect a massive train wreck that won't get fixed for years to come.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911556#Comment_3911556
Yeah I'd be okay if they made it not give a stack when you destroy it. The fact of them having to waste time finding another and that you prevented their stacks clear is good enough to me. She's just an m1 killer with no "real" anti loop, so to me this is fair. The tape insertion speed is an issue, however if we got tape destruction on hit then the insertion speed is acceptable. If we don't get tape destruction then yeah it definitely needs to be longer.Them putting it in right in your face is quite annoying.
Completely agree, should be one or the other.
As it stands now unless they are injured before you find them, they pretty much can just remove the condemn in our face in exchange for a health-state. Even worse is that if a team is coordinated enough and understands her power, they'll turn off the target TV beforehand to deny the teleport, making even trading condemn for a health-state not guaranteed.
Letting us break tapes or increasing the insert time would at least let us gave a better chance at punishing survivors when they misplay and ignore condemn until too late.
-
@Blueberry said:
As Skitten mentioned I don't think they would do this much of an extreme change and tbh I don't think she needs this much anyway.
Some very solid addon changes though. She currently has a lot that make no sense.
I actually like her current teleporting. I do not think it's mindless at all, there is depth to it. Onryo has a much higher skill ceiling than most people realize.
You touched on some if not most of these, but I think these are core issues that need fixing rather than a heavy rework:
- Tape destruction on hit returned - She currently has basically no counter play to tapes. Your only "counter play" is preventing them from picking it up in the first place. Once they have it you're screwed. Hit destruction gives her some agency over this. I think this is fair given she doesn't have "real" anti loop so hits don't come easy. The alternative to this is passive condemn with tapes coming back but I don't like this as much because it's free, hit destruction alternatively is not free, it actually requires the Onryo to play well. If they aren't willing to budge on this Ring Drawing should absolutely be base kit.
- Remove lullaby - This makes absolutely zero sense. There is no point in being Undetectable if you put out a lullaby telling them you're there. You might as well just remove the Undetectable at that point because it's the same thing as a terror radius. It being directional makes no sense either but the lullaby has no point in existing anyway. As long as the lullaby exists she isn't a stealth killer. Everyone knows she's coming and pre runs.
- Stop having chests get priority placement over killer items - God this is a pet peeve of mine. Anything that adds chests be it coins or event offerings screws over our TV spawns and throws them all away from gens. This also affects killers like Xeno and Plague in similar ways. Just make it prioritize spawning killer items before chests instead of after. That easy.
Her Manifest/Demanist is on a verge of useless and isn't a real anti loop in any shape or form but if they fix the aforementioned things then she doesn't need this. She shouldn't have good anti loop if she gets the above changes since we need to focus on making her strengths strong but her weaknesses apparent. Her bad anti loop is her weakness.
Her directional teleport sound is also a major issue and defeats the point entirely, however I don't want to get too greedy. Manifesting/Demanifesting also shouldn't slow her down for how trash it is. If we can just get the above bulletin points though it will be huge. These changes I mentioned are much simpler and easier to implement.
She has a ton of addon issues as you touched on and many of them look great. I'll save my thoughts on all her addons for another post as this is already a lot.
Her Remote Control and Bloody Fingernails are also just so good and so pivotal to her play style I don't see how I would ever take them off no matter what improvements we made to her other addons. They feel too required for things she needs. She doesn't have room to run any other flavor addons. So while asking for these base kit would seem too much probably, I don't see any other solution. She relies heavily on Fingernails for hits/downs. It's like non negotiable.
You have convinced me that breaking tapes on hit is healthy with 3.0 provided they don't get stacks upon hit. I was worried about how it was implemented with 2.0 and cautious but you made a great argument.
Grabbing tapes and removing condemn, sometimes even mid-chase is pretty easy right now. Such a mechanic would make it so survivors can't just hold W to the TV if they have high condemn and instead would actually have to engage a bit more with the killer and consider sneaking around to avoid getting caught. And as you have mentioned, even if they do get spotted doing a tape run, Sadako being an m1 killer makes it difficult for her to get hits.
As such I support having her power make it so that upon m1 hits, tapes survivors hare holding break to her power; if not basekit, at least make it an add-on.
-
@tuttoinunavolta said:
I've been maining Sadako since her first iteration and im really happy with the spot she's currently in. It sucks that she's been bugged since her last rework though, we still haven't had the chance to try the effects of her demanifested flickering buffs since last year. I think if that ever gets fixed (Reiko's Watch's fix was also just partial) she'll be almost perfect.
The only complaints I have are:
- Iri Tape wasn't well-thought out. The game-changing idea was great, but the fact condemn doesn't exist anymore means the survivors can just pick up a tape, shut down every single TVs in the nearby area and completely nullify her teleport power with absolutely zero downsides. They should make it so that when a survivor is holding a tape, they can't turn off other TVs aside from the one that's highlighted (and the one they picked the tape from, of course). That or give them 2% of hindered for every extra TV they turn off, I don't know. Turning TVs off against Iri Tape is just too free as of now.
- Tape Editing Deck is a bit silly. They left this add-on unchanged between the various reworks, but now it straight up just gives a big starting disadvantage to Sadako. The 6 seconds reading AFTER a survivor cleanses (thus, removing Sadako's one way to get to them quickly) is also too measly of an advantage for that big starting disadvantage, especially since this is a purple add-on too. An entire rework would be better but I think even simply doubling the aura-reading time would make the add-on a viable option.
- The time it takes for survivors to reinsert a tape should be increased, just by half a second really. In the current state it's a bit too easy to just put tapes back in her face during a chase. I had a game as survivor where I had 5 stacks of Condemned on me, parried her attack with Dead Hard in front of a tv and managed to nullify the condemn progress before she could down me again. I think a tiny tiny tweak, to make that slightly harder but not impossible, would be ideal.
As of now, all her add-ons that affect demanifestation/manifestation flickering are kinda pointless just because of her long-standing bug. But if that gets fixed, I believe some of them (mainly Reiko's Watch) will become very much worth using. As of now, there's little reason to not just run Nails + Iri Tape every match.
They should make it so that when a survivor is holding a tape, they can't turn off other TVs aside from the one that's highlighted (and the one they picked the tape from, of course).
Been arguing for this change to Iri-tape since the rework. Would solve one of the main issues with the add-on and help offset the lack of slowdown due to the more or less removal of the condemn mechanic.
I love Iri-tape add-on as a concept but right now smart survivors can just abuse it and potentially leave you more or less powerless.
-
@Rogue11 said:
If there are perks that are so awful / selfish that knowledge about them would drive teammates away, why not change those perks?
Some people enjoy running non-meta or spicing things up occasionally for a game or 2.
-
@crogers271 said:
From the update
[CHANGE]Introduced small buffs to Perks which previously relied on stacking.
So we're all waiting to see what the specific number will be, but it does seem to be something they are aware of.
I personally don't trust BHVR to buff all these haste/hindered perks properly to make them all worth running in their own way. Will likely take years for many survivor and killer perks to become relevant again if they push through this change.
-
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903523#Comment_3903523
What do you think about blocking the exit gates for fully condenmend survivors for 15 seconds?
Could be interesting but wouldn't be relevant in most matches. If something like this were implemented I think it would be better if fully condemned survivors just couldn't leave through the gate like Pig. Would make late game condemns a lot more intense and higher stakes as they would need to drop off their tape at a TV to remove the curse or have everyone else leave and try to get hatch.
-
I'm still disappointed with their last UI overhaul being terrible and basically unchanged and then they do this. And somehow during this time they still haven't bothered to add more then 3 preset slots for builds and cosmetics which is all I really wanted them to change regarding menu features and UI.
Please revert it. It may be incredibly minor but being able to see the exact number of something is still satisfying.
-
I'd be fine with mixing fuel gens into the main mode. However I would also want to keep standard gens around.
I personally still find skillcheck builds fun and there are some aspects of standard gen gameplay that are interesting, for example blast mine, skill check doctors. I think adding more skill checks to standard gen gameplay would make gens more interesting in general. I always lock in for merciless storm and hitting all the checks can be satisfying.
Perhaps make it so all gens can either be finished with being fueled by fuel cans/pumps, OR repaired the traditional way. This would give players options and diversify gameplay for both sides.
-
It would have made a great April 1st cosmetic. I'd love to see it in the game myself. Hopefully we'll get it next year if not this year.
-
A bit sad about it.
I know why they did it and I can understand the decision to help new players or balance. However I personally am going to miss the variety. Probably in the minority here but I like the Badham variants, just wish they were a bit more balanced.
-
Some interesting changes and ideas overall. However BHVR isn't likely to rework Onryo to such a degree. There are a few ideas here though that would be great as minor tweaks or balance changes to help put Onryo is a better place. Specifically regarding the add-ons, here is what I would propose within the frame of the current rework that is more likely to be accepted by BHVR.
- Change Clump of Hair add-on to make her lullaby map-wide or non-directional. Or tack on that effect to its existing ones.
- Current effect is basically useless and with the VTR feature, Onryos stealth has suffered a lot. As a result playing stealth Onryo is even less viable than condemn Onryo compared to before.
- Change Rickety Pinwheel and Sea Soaked Cloth add-ons as suggested but have range be 12 meters for powered TVs and 6 meters for unpowered TVs.
- These add-ons need to have their effects apply to unpowered TVs now since Onryo's rework has made it so survivors are basically never sitting around powered TVs and turn them off right away to avoid condemn. As such the current effects of these add-ons is really bad.
- Change VCR add-on to have your suggested effect of giving all survivors a stack of condemn each time a gen is completed.
- This would make this add-on actually useful for it being purple rarity and add a balanced effect. The current effect of this add-on essentially does noting, especially against good survivors who will just look at the TV aura and know.
- Change Iri-tape add-on so that survivors either can't see the auras of TVs (fine since they can't apply condemn) or make it so that survivors holding a tape cannot turn off other TVs until they drop their tape off.
- This makes it so good survivors can't completely shut down her power when Onryo uses this add-on by just running around turning off TVs with basically no risk high reward, especially given the extra unpowered duration debuff the add-on has.
- Change Clump of Hair add-on to make her lullaby map-wide or non-directional. Or tack on that effect to its existing ones.
-
I think its fair to want the slow crawl speed to stay in the game. I don't think it would be too strong if it slowed survivors crawl speed for 10 seconds after a down or something in addition to the PTB effects. I do hope BHVR will tack on this effect to the new version or bake it into a new perk in the future. It never feels good to have functionality removed from the game just because most people don't use it and play meta.
I do like Knockout's new effect however and would like them to keep it in some form. Perhaps it might need some adjusting later though for the reasons you mentioned.
STBFL and Sloppy getting nerfed was a bit criminal since are pretty much only good on the weakest killers in the game. Maybe BHVR will reconsider them someday. Knockouts main effected did need to go for the health of the game though.
-
Strongly agree with you and I love your suggested changes to her drones.
I really want them to have Skull Merchant and her drones be the best information killer on the roster, not some version of Twins. I want to be able to use the tracker and good drone placement to have constant tabs on all the survivors; to actually use the tracker and feel rewarded from it. Your suggestion of having drones lock-on, follow survivors and provide info to the killer would be a good way of achieving this. Needing another teammate to do the hack creates interesting counterplay and teamwork. All of this is in line with Skull Merchants identity which Drone Propulsion mechanic is not.
As for her passive drones I get why they want to nerf them and for the most part I agree with it, however there needs to be compensation buffs and changes otherwise what is the point of them other than Drone Propulsion launch points. Drones should still apply claw traps to scanned survivors and also provided even stronger info than before to compensate. 12 seconds of information can't be all stealth drones are good for in this new rework. Tracking needs a longer duration and Claw Traps should be easier to apply given the removal of hindered, haste, etc. Basekit pallet breaks if survivors vault with a Claw Trap would be a good way to give her some chase power and keep Claw Traps relevant. Ideally buff these aspects of her drones while removing the Drone Propulsion mechanic.
Keep going in this direction and she can be a reasonable strong and fun stealth/info killer with no need for this new Drone Propulsion stuff that makes her uninteresting. She needs to have a power but also an identity that is unique from the rest.
The information and stealth based gameplay on an m1 killer was what made Skull Merchant interesting and fun. Seeing BHVR basically make her another Twins as you put it is incredibly disappointing.