Skitten56
Skitten56
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- Skitten56
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@jesterkind said:
I think it'd probably be smarter to buff her crouch rather than mess with her default stats. If she moved faster while crouched, she'd get better results than just having a smaller terror radius while standing.
Honestly, I don't see the need to slow her down at all. She can't M1 until she stands back up, it's not like she'd be broken or able to abuse moving at full speed while stealthed.
They should at least do one or the other. Whether its the Terror Radius or Crouch Speed she could definitely use something.
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@leviivel said:
I don’t really need to make this post long, this perk is going to be atrocious to play against in coordinated teams.
with pick up time being roughly 3-ish seconds, that allows a second survivor to stay at an atleast EXTREMELY safe 20 meters away. Meaning if the survivor being picked up on pallet is guarenteed to get to safety with basically nothing the killer can do about it.
the perk was fine as it was, increase the duration of the speed by a lot to make it a stronger option for sabos (because sabo-ing is kinda trash rn) or give it a shorter exhaustion duration like you did with Smash hit.
and please, i don’t wanna hear the arguments of: “well it’s not as good in solo queue.” (Every perk isn’t as good in solo queue lets be real) or “you’ll barely ever see it.” (SM had an extremely low pick rate and took priority to get changed) or even “not everyone knows the pallet save timing.” (Dumbest thing that could possibly be said).
I don’t wanna ruin fun but this perk change is so atrocious.
It might be over-tuned but I think we should wait and see how it functions in practice first once it goes live and then judge. Also I think it should be a pretty strong exhaustion perk. Exhaustion perks are already limiting and are supposed to be a powerful tool at a survivors disposal. This one only lets you get a speed boost when the killer picks up a survivors. As a result its use is even more limited and mostly only usable for altruistic saves. As a result I think it is reasonable that it be strong enough that players will be able to get sufficient value out of it like other exhaustion perks. On that note they should probably buff Smash Hit a bit more either in speed or hidden scratch marks to help it offset the risk more of going for a dangerous stun.
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I just had this happen to me and was super confused. I was going to submit a bug report but decided to see if anyone else had made a post yet about it and found this post. I can say it is definitely not fixed as of the time of my comment. Hopefully this will be addressed soon as the possibility of getting 2 or more BNPs on 1 survivor each in a same game is something that is rather powerful and game changing.
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Onryo is just so boring to play now. Survivors not doing proper counter-play makes this even worse and you are practically handed a free win. Very little skill involved compared to before. One of the worst reworks BHVR has done imo.
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I would support a majority of these changes. Mostly just because the rework really destroyed her fun mobility and teleport aspects in exchange for a more boring condemn playstyle. Some of your suggestions are too strong or complicated and would need tweaking but overall it aims to address some of the issues within the rework.
Your suggestions about TV changes would help resolve her mobility issues within the rework where having a TV available when you need it can be inconsistent and somewhat rare. Not to mention the awful 10 second teleport cool-down that is only necessary due to the shortsighted map-wide condemn upon Projecting. Disagree with the delays on teleporting as her seamless instant teleports are what makes her a unique mobility killer compared to Dredge or Freddy (I hesitate to call her a mobility killer now due to the rework though as her mobility nerfs make her teleport mostly only useful for condemn gain rather than chase or gen harassment and are much more inconsistent compared to before).
Shame most people won't read the wall of text but the crux of the issue is that the rework severely limits any playstyles she has except condemn, which many survivors and a good deal of Onryo mains are not happy with. Condemn itself involves less skill to build up and also has less interesting counter-play. The lack of skill involved in spreading condemn allows her to dominate soloq and games against inexperienced players making her feel incredibly unbalanced and oppressive. However the nerfs to her kit aside from condemn result in her performing worse against skilled swf teams compared to before. This is bad for the game and leaves Onryo in a unhealthy position.
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The simple solution is to just have a button survivors can press to automatically bleed out under specific conditions. I think the following conditions would be reasonable:
1: If there are only 2 survivors left in the trial and 1 or more are slugged on the ground
2: If all remaining survivors are slugged on the ground or hooked (maybe not allow it if one of them has Unbreakable, Plot Twist, or Deliverance active as they may be able to turn things around still)
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@Venusa said:
It's so funny how all Onryo enjoyers asked for was a fun chase power that makes her viable outside of condemned playstyle and the devs took that as "let's make the most dreaded and unfun playstyle the easiest and mainstream way to play her"...
Not to mention that in the process they reduced the viability of non-condemn playstyles by nerfing her mobility and some select add-ons, so now using the unfun playstyle is even more important if you want to get wins against good teams.
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@HOMOGRIMOIRE said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543581#Comment_3543581
No, yeah, I'm sure her stats point to her being strong, but that's because she's really good against solo q and any swf with a blow average skill level. A majority of players. Against them, spamming tp is braindead yet effective. There's a reason condemn builds were not fun to go against or engaging to play with, at least for me, and now that they've made that her power, she's just not fun for me.
However, she's weak against swfs/competent players, still an unignorable portion of the player base. At least with old Sadako, if you didn't care about condemn, you didn't really care as much of you went against a swf or not. There wasn't a whole lot more they could to than a soloq team could. They could be smarter with taking tapes, but that wasn't doing a whole lot, especially compared to now. Going against a swf is usually harder because they're coordinated and have comms, but that's a general thing not unique to old Sadako.
TDLR: She's stronger against the general player base, but a whole lot weaker against swfs and more skilled players, which wasn't a problem with old Sadako
100%, while she destroys soloq and the average player with ease to the point that it isn't even enjoyable, against skilled players and swf she is absolutely weaker than before. I used to play her as a mobility kill and could control the flow of the game with skilled macro play. That option is pretty much no longer available with the mobility nerfs and survivors ensuring many TVs are turned off all the time now. This leaves us with the dull and uninteresting strategy of tunneling people with tapes and teleporting every 10 seconds when they don't have one.
The rework is just incredibly problematic and they should just revert the changes. While getting wins pre-rework may have been harder, at least they felt earned and was an expression of skill. It was fun and engaging gameplay compared to what we have now.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543463#Comment_3543463
You can make her work really fast. I just find the new Sadako boring. Condemnig players is severely less skillfull and just a matter of spamming your power and predicting survivor movement a bit. Most groups cant handle dealing with tapes well, making an early mori very likely to happen. The mini mori was once a special achievement in a nmatch for clever playing (not with iri tape). I played without iri tape and got many moris with good strategy and planning in every match. It felt rewarding. Sadako right now is just watered down so that all players without much of the before needed skill can achieve what the few players did before.
I personally still hold a grudge against bhvr that they didnt listen to the feedback and just pushed it live. I refuse to give ptb feedback since then and as i said very rarely play her anymore. I had her at p66 at the time of the rework and shes still p66. Just extremely sad.
Im back to being a full out Pig main.
Well said. As you mention, winning games is less dependant on personal skill and more dependant on whether survivors know to hold tapes and if you can teleport every 10 seconds.
Just like you I barely play her now. I mained her myself and played her the majority of the time I would play killer. Now I'm playing Artist and Pig to fill the void. However, I find myself playing the game less in general now. It is not fun when they completely change how a killer works and take all the skill and fun out of them. There is nothing enjoyable or skillful about tunneling a person out and pressing a button every 10 seconds. Unfortunately the rework makes this the only viable way to play her against good teams.
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The person in the link you posted pretty much nailed it. She is absolutely less fun to play now. You either get easy wins from soloq/inexperienced players or your matches are even harder than before against swf due to the mobility nerfs. The reduced the viability of all playstyles except condemn due to the nerfs which makes her less interesting to play. The remaining viable condemn playstyle however is now boring to play since the new strategy is simply tunnel people with tapes and pretty much teleport mindlessly every 10 seconds. This is much more dull than the previous strategy and tactics required for condemn playstyles.
As a result Onryo is much less fun and interesting to play as. On the survivors side, it seems like many players dislike going against her as well due to how oppressive she can be if you are not fully prepared to counter her. 1 person not knowing what to do can easily result in a loss. The end result is just a less fun killer that is more restrictive and feels worse to play. Not to mention incredibly unbalanced.
I think my biggest complain is just how the rework feels unengaging. Before the rework I felt like the outcome of a match was dependent on my own personal skill and the skill of survivors; a competitive to see who could out best the other. Now with the rework it feels like the matches are decided on whether or not survivors know the counter-play and whether or not I can find the same person with a tape and teleport every 10 seconds. Totally dull and unengaging gameplay.
I sincerely hope BHVR reconsiders the rework and reverts pretty much all of the changes. They are just bad for the game and make it less enjoyable.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
I played PTB.
I wanted to ask for things for the killer, but its pointless.
They will do whatever they like, they seem uninterested in feedback unless its from a prominent media figure OR a social network barrage.
Screw that, I'm not wasting time typing up feedback from testing for that treatment.
I learned that lesson with the Onryo rework PTB. We gave them a ton of feedback on the problems relating to the rework as well as how it would likely make gameplay less fun for both sides. All of it was pretty much ignored and we are stuck with Onryo that is either weaker than before when going against good survivors or destroys soloq and gets handed easy wins. Horribly balanced.
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I agree she needs changes but disagree with you on what they should do.
I firmly believe the addition of mapwide condemn upon Projection was the worst thing they did to her. It is difficult to balance and punishes soloq more than anything. Whats worse is that they reduced her mobility to try and balance it which makes her less fun to play. The reduced mobility along with the changes to demanifestation and chase interactions really force her to play all in on the condemn playstyle instead of allowing players to play her with a mobility focus.
Survivors didn't like being focused down and getting condemned pre-rework. Now that Onryo is forced to play such a playstyle even more because of the nerfs to the other aspects of her kit, this is happening even more. Not only that, building condemn takes much less skill than before. Pre-rework you had to use strategy and game sense to teleport within a specific distance of a survivor to build condemn up. You could also notice survivors with tapes and try to interdict them before they can could drop them off. Both of these options had counterplay and were engaging.
The current way to build condemn is to just tunnel people with tapes, hit them and then teleport every 10 seconds. If they pick up a tape you hit them again until they are dead. It is much less interesting and much less healthy for the game.
In my opinion the rework should just be scraped and they can either make smart changes to the pre-rework Onryo like keeping the changes to Ring Drawing, or start over with a new rework idea that isn't such a nightmare to balance.
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I would also love to see this added. It would make her more satisfying to use. It would also help provide nice feedback for times when you fire the birds and look away to do other things without having to check the HUD to see the results.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3498978#Comment_3498978
Yet ironically the majority of complaints I'm seeing are about her spam teleporting and having too much map pressure.
You are correct in that this is the majority of the complaints, but you need look at it critically and view it in context.
People spam the teleport because it is the most effective way to build condemn now. As a result, people complain about the spam because the condemn can be oppressive. However the ability to spam teleport is significantly reduced compared to before. For example, before there was no cooldown on it, now there is a 10 second cooldown. As a result, her mobility is weaker than before. If BHVR adjusts her to make condemn not a threat, then Onryo will absolutely be a worse off killer than she was previously because they have in fact nerfed key parts of her kit, aside from condemn which they have buffed.
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Interesting suggestions though it might be difficult to implement.
I think at least as a simple hotfix they should just make it so the drones can't expose when a generator is within their radius. This would help a bit at least in the short term and I feel it wouldn't be that hard to code given they already have mechanics for hooks.
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@Blueberry said:
The condemn pressure is literally all she has. If people want to start nerfing that she’s gonna need massive buffs in other areas. She’s literally trash in every category that makes a good killer good. Most my experience playing as and against her have been people not playing against her correctly and trying to play like it was old Sadako which does not work.
Exactly. They made the entire rework about global condemn and nerfed her mobility to try and balanace it. When you make her mobility weaker to an already weak killer in order to make everything about condemn, it is no surprise people are going to start playing her with a focus on condemn as well. Nerfing her mobility is what made her good and fun to play. To buff condemn at the expense of her mobility was a horrible idea. It just incentivizes people even more to do broken condemn strategies instead of playing her as a map pressure mobility killer.
They need to revert most of the changes and remove global condemn which is deeply flawed and hard to balance, and instead focus more on her mobility factor.
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I disagree with your suggestion. They have to make holding a tape the safe option because the entire rework is broken otherwise. It is the one effective counterplay and if they change this then she would be truly OP. I agree though it is absolutely silly that holding a cursed tape protects survivors.
This all really shows how the rework is completely short sighted in its implementation. As so many of us mentioned in all the PTB feedback, she would destroy inexperienced players who don't know that counter and then be destroyed by experienced players. It is just horrible gameplay, horrible design.
Global condemn is a mistake and just a nightmare to balance. They need to just revert the changes and admit that they made a mistake. Because of the potential for global condemn to be oppressive, they had to nerf her mobility and change how tapes work. The appeal to playing Onryo was the mobility. By forcing her entire kit to revolve around global condemn at the expense of mobility, she is less fun to play. It also means it is less fun for survivors because they don't like losing because 1 teammate died right away due to them not knowing the simple counter. The old design for Onryo was better because she had to work to earn condemn kills (outside of slug Onryo), instead of just pressing a button every 10 seconds and hoping survivors don't know the simple counterplay of holding a tape.
Furthermore, the changes to tapes go completely against the spirit of her character. Tapes shouldn't serve as a shield to protect survivors, they are cursed tapes. The old version of Onryo nailed this aspect where survivors were generally only in danger of condemn when they "watched"/took a tape. It was a risk reward system. You could deny Onryo her power at critical moments such as the last gen almost being done or to deny a TV near a survivor needing to be unhooked.
I won't touch on your add-on suggestions but the rework add-on changes in general are appalling and utterly baffling. In general they need to just accept this rework is a complete failure and bad for the game. They could easily revert most of the changes and keep a few of the good ones like the change to Ring Drawing or the initial TV cooldown times.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The devs seem to be on a streak of making pointless changes for the sake of needless consistency and/or being thematic.
Couldn't agree with you more. It is absolutely maddening. Firstly it is a asymmetrical game so it is okay if there is some variation in how things function. Diversity makes the game generally more fun and more interesting. This helps retain players. Secondly, when they do it at the expense of gameplay or enjoyment it just makes no sense and I have to wonder why they seem to want to force through such decisions.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think it’s just whiplash from how the optimal strategy to defeat her has basically done a full 180.
Originally, you countered her by….doing nothing. Just play as if you were fighting a generic m1 killer and you’ll be fine.
Now, you actually have to interact with her power.
I say give it a few more weeks for people to learn.
I agree that people will start to catch on but once everyone gives her the Plague treatment and does the one counterplay, then she will start to struggle due to the nerfs to her kit to try and make global condemn not oppressive.
Also survivors had to interact with her power before the rework. If you wanted to do a gen in peace, take a tape. If you wanted to get a unhook without her coming out of the TV 3 meters away, take a tape. Not to mention anytime she teleported near a survivor, that was also an interaction with her power. Good Onryos could build up condemn with Iri-tape and create the need for interactions as well.
Furthermore the changes to tapes are just silly. They are "cursed" tapes. You write, "Originally, you countered her by….doing nothing". This was actually how she was supposed to be. She curses people who watch her tape. As a result, most of the time you only used to be in danger from condemn when you grabbed "watched" her tape (ignore bad slug strategy that got rightfully nerfed). You are supposed to fear them and not interact with them. Having a tape on you was when a survivor would be in the most danger during a match because Onryo could find they TV point and make their life very hard.
Now survivors holding a tape functions to protect them. There is no curse or danger. The rework just goes completely against the spirit of the character unlike the original design which nailed it. The rework also is just bad for balance and creates incentives for players to play the game in ways which make it less fun for everyone.
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The rework is just badly designed. Building up condemn is braindead as you can just press a button every 10 seconds or slug people with tapes. The counterplay is simple to just hold a tape at all times but if you're whole team isn't on board someone will just die very early and the game is ruined.
The rework just punishes newer and inexperienced players while the nerfs to accommodate global condemn punish Onryo against experienced players. They nerfed her mobility, as well as her chase by nerfing her ability to do manifestation mindgames. She is a weaker killer than before but this all is reliant upon survivors not knowing the exact correct counterplay. This is simply bad game design and frustrating for everyone all around.
Global condemn is a huge issue because it is a nightmare to balance since it has high potential to be oppressive as we can see. Because of this potential, everything else about her kit has to be balanced around it which is why there are nerfs to her mobility which was the fun part of her kit. Condemn is now the focus of her character as a killer instead of mobility, and at the expense of mobility. This means Onryo players are incentivized to go even harder into condemn strategies. These changes they have made just make her less fun to play with more traditional playstyles and instead encourage and incentivize less fun condemn playstyles.
They need to just drop the whole rework and either start over and try again, or make small changes to the old Onryo like the changes to Ring Drawing and TV cooldowns.
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@ARTRA said:
I guess excel sheet says Watch its used a lot, that ""must mean"" Watch is OP not that other addons are awfull.
Also would be nice if TP have no cooldown like before (now) BUT apply condem mapwide have 15 seconds CD. So Sadako keep mobility but cant spam teleport to apply an insane amount of condem in short time.
The changes to Reiko's Watch are some of the most baffling and ridiculous changes that they pushed through. I honestly thought that they only included it as leverage to say they compromised when they inevitably would have to walk back some changes. I don't say this lightly given they are developing the game, but the fact that they were serious about Reiko's Watch shows a lack of understanding in regards to Onryo, her strengths and weakness, and her power in general.
Most people assumed if they ever changed Onryo, Reiko's Watch would be made partially basekit, not nerfed. I sincernly hope BHVR will look closer into this add-on because the change makes no sense unless they were only looking at usage numbers. Usage numbers does not equal performance; for example, it could just mean her other add-ons are subpar.
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I am also super disappointed. We gave so much feedback in hopes that they would reconsider many of the more problematic changes. Onryo simply was not enjoyable to play in the PTB, at least not as a teleport killer. They completely changed how she played and ruined what made her unique. They simply reworked her into something she wasn't.
She was a high mobility killer with good map presence which excelled in macro play due to her teleport power. They threw that into the trash and ruined her high mobility with a double cooldown and the TV changes, and tried to force her to be a m1 chase killer with slowdown. She still has okay map presence but because of the changes it cannot be used efficiently. It is clear that they intend to release her like this which is just appalling.
I can only hope that after seeing how she perform on the live server they consider returning her to her true strengths instead of trying to make her Pig 2.0 with worse slowdown and a dash of teleport power. BHVR only needed to adjust and address a few issue with her previous power, not make her a completely different killer all together. Anyone who played Onryo as a fast-paced teleport killer will be severely disappointed with these changes.
As she is now, she will just stomp new players and then get destroyed by experienced players without having any aspects of her kit which made her fun to play even when losing.
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@electrapng said:
Really disappointing that absolutely none of the vital feedback actual Sadako players gave BHVR about the PTB was taken into account for this “rework.” The rework removes so much of what we all loved about her kit. Smooth teleportation, using teleports for tracking, using flickering mindgames in chase, all of these things are dead now. And even worse is that it’s harder to understand how to play her, and it doesn’t make any sense thematically with her source material. The live version of Sadako isn’t the strongest, but we like her. You’ve gone too far and have alienated the players who love her.
And you didn’t even fix the condemned slugging everyone hates so much… why would you ever hook someone if tapes are destroyed on hit? The hooks spread condemn was the ONLY thing we universally liked about the rework.
Please reconsider this rework. I know that a lot of work and effort was put into it, and it would feel bad to just delete that effort, but nobody is happy with the changes. I will probably no longer play Sadako. What I loved about her is gone, and her skill expression is non-existent. Global condemn is the problem with the rework; you’re trying to balance around that mechanic, but it just doesn’t work. You’re not just making her more confusing for new players (you get 3/4 of a stack per teleport? Huh?), you’re nerfing her across the board and alienating her current players.
Yes, these change completely remove all the aspects of what made Onryo a fun and unique killer that stood out from the rest of the killer roster. Playing the PTB as Onryo was simply not fun and I only did it so I could provide as much objective feedback to the devs and BHVR as possible in the hope that they would address these core issues. Unfortunately that effort seems to have been wasted.
"Global condemn is the problem with the rework; you're trying to balance around that mechanic, but it just doesn't work."
100% this. Because they are keeping in the gobal condemn on Projection, all these changes that no one wants have to stay it; for example, the 10 second cooldown on teleporting, or the way tapes work now and why they have to be easy to remove. They need to just remove the global condemn and the affiliated changes and start over.
Also as EvilTwin mentioned above. "Sadako now has zero skill expression. She will absolutely demolish newer players and struggle even more in chase." Her changes make her simply less interesting and sometime boring to play compared to how Onryo used to be. The PTB changes also make her much harder against new players while at the same time making it even harder for Onryo to go against skilled players. This is a horrible balancing decision that will only hurt Onryo and the games killer roster diversity.
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@Brokenbones said:
A pointless rework that's ruined the character for a lot of people
Pretty much this. They completely removed her high mobility face paced maco playstyle. Removing slugging for condemn by nerfing Ring Drawing was a great change but the complete condemn rework is boring. Instead of having to use skill and strategy to build up condemn it is now just given to you for free over time. Completely dull and uninteresting. All this in exchange for some slowdown which survivors can easily remove because they refused to implement feedback regarding TVs and tapes.
Overall she is just a less interesting killer that no longer standsout from the rest of the killer roster. You want slowdown on a m1 killer that is actually effective, play Pig. You want good map control with teleports without having cooldowns ontop of cooldowns, play Dredge. Onryo has nothing going for her now.
BHVR has taken what was my favourite killer which kept bringing me back to play this game and butchered everything interesting and fun about her. I can't see myself playing her much more and as a result I will likely be playing the game less as well.