Skitten56
Skitten56
About
- Username
- Skitten56
- Joined
- Visits
- 1,949
- Last Active
Comments
-
@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639338#Comment_3639338
Completely agree, her current iri is only a downside. They should bring back her old iri tape, which turned TVs back on.
Old Iri-tape would be welcome to see again too. However the current Iri-tape only has downsides because BHVR had not think it through and did not limit the survivors ability to turn off multiple TVs. If BHVR addresses the issues with this, then the add-on is actually good and worthy of being an Iri. The add-on makes it impossible for you to turn off your own TVs, only survivors can. This gives you very strong map mobility and if skillfully used, strong map pressure. It gives you info on where survivors are if they do take tapes, and if if BHVR addresses the issues, it will also give you slowdown. Do not underestimate how useful an on demand teleport can be for map pressure. This is why old Iri-tape was so good even when not playing for condemn.
-
@NickMilian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639329#Comment_3639329
i know what the add-on does, my point is for an IRI add-on you are taking away her strongest trait and that is to build condemn on survivors and add pressure to them throughout the duration of the game. I would say by removing this you are effectively removing her power and you might as well play any other teleportation killer in that instance, like dredge or freddy (who at least both have some kind of anti-loop too).
This could easily be one of those meme brown add-ons for extra BP, not her iridescent.
Having access to such high mobility can be 100% worth the trade off in the hands of a skilled Onryo. Its a teleport but unlike the other killers you mentioned, it has no cool-down and can be used at a will. With the proper adjustments so survivors can't just run around rapidly turning off every TV, it is 100% worthy of its place as a strong Iri-add-on that augments her power in a fun and unique way.
I know many Onryo players focus on her condemn pressure, but some of us also know how strong her old map pressure was and know how to take advantage of it. This add-on will be alright if BHVR fixes it so survivors can't abuse it.
-
@NickMilian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639147#Comment_3639147
Agree, at least her first version had Iridescent Tape - the current version is so bad and I can't believe they made it an iridescent add on that removes her entire power LOL.
The current version of Iri-tape does not remove her entire power. Her power is condemn as well as the mobility gained from Projecting. The add-on shifts the balance between these two all the way to the mobility side by removing the TV cool-downs from Projection but removing any condemn pressure. This would be a perfectly fine add-on if it were not for a major issue.
The issue is that survivors can remove her entire power when running this add-on. Without any condemn pressure, with no downsides to grabbing and holding tapes, and with longer TV cool-downs, survivors can easily have someone go from TV to TV using the auras and completely deny your power. This is completely broken and makes the add-on worthless against smart teams.
BHVR needs to make it so when running this add-on, survivors carrying a tape cannot interact with any other TVs until they drop their tape off. They should also hide TV auras other than the drop off TV when holding a tape.
-
@aerie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638870#Comment_3638870
as someone who uses FOV slider for accessibility, it having a downside is inherently punishing me for basic accessibility. so i heavily, heavily disagree with you. i think punishing for accessibility is really disgusting, actually, and i hope it gets fixed.
Its an accessibility feature that everyone is going to use for its advantages just like the Visual Terror Radius feature. The people who need it for accessibility reasons are in the minority, and without a drawback it is just a straight buff to anyone who uses it and essentially punishes anyone who wants to stay on the old FOV for not taking advantage of it.
I'm all for accessibility which is why I'm okay with BHVR adding the FOV, but if your accessibility feature gives you advantages over other players, it is completely fair that this comes with downsides. You are getting an advantage, even if you are using it for an accessibility reason.
-
@aerie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638293#Comment_3638293
mhm. i remember them mentioning to consider fixing that, but with how slow fixes can come, it probably won't happen for years :)
They shouldn't fix it at all in my opinion. There is nothing broken with having a larger blind angle when you have a larger field of view. Setting your FOV up high gives you a competitive advantage. I think it is perfectly reasonable that this advantage comes with a small drawback in return.
-
@CammyChameleon said:
The changes we need are simple: Revert To PTB Onryo AND BUFF That Version. She needed BUFFS from the PTB not nerfs!
- No more cooldown for condemn
- Hidden TV auras, survivors can so easily avoid it with this on, it's almost impossible to spread it.
- Remove Hook Changes, Lock in was fine and incentivized hooking over slugging!
- Tape Times Back to 2 Seconds, even INCREASED to 2.5 seconds
- Please Change her Iri add on back to what the OG one was, the resetting TVs were on PAR For a pink addon! This new pink add on sucks...
- It took me all 5 gens to get ONE survivor Condemned with this new Onryo, and even then they still made it out the door because no Chase Power + No TVs near the gates = Free hold W to escape.
- I'm okay with the condemn cool-down. I think if it is what BHVR feels they need in order to reduce how strong her counterplay is for survivors, then that is an acceptable trade-off. It is quick enough that it isn't a huge issue unless you are really teleport spamming. The biggest issue with it was their justification for why they added it which showed a completely lack of understanding on BHVR's part in how survivors will approach her counterplay. BHVR must address the issues regarding her counterplay though, especially if they intend to keep changes like this in her kit.
- The TV auras must be addressed though. A good compromise is to hide TV auras aside from their target drop off TV when holding a tape. That way survivors can grab a tape to start the counterplay but once they enter chase with Sadako she has options to spread condemn.
- The Lock In hook change nerf was way too far. The cap needs to be at 4 stacks locked in per hook at the very least. Otherwise Onryo is better off slugging. Ideally remove the cap but if it is decided there needs to be a cap, it needs to be set high enough that Onryo can mori before 2 hooks or slugging becomes preferable.
- Tape times back to 2sec are a must imo. Specifically the insert speeds. If they want to have the tape grab duration be 1s its not as bad. But Inserting a tape in 1sec just allows survivors to wait till the last second and then insert it in your face. 2.5s I think is too long though.
- I would be fine with the OG Iri-tape coming back. It would give Onryo a way to counter survivors trying to turn off her TVs as she would have some control over when to turn them back on. If not the OG Iri-tape they need to make the changes that I proposed in my main comment above. Mainly that when running the add-on, survivors wh are carrying a tape cannot see TV auras other than their target drop off TV and not interact with TVs other than their target drop off TV. Otherwise the add-on can easily be abused by survivors to leave her powerless.
-
@Dreigonix said:
You killed her. She's legit unplayable now. Congratulations. Are you happy? All you had to do was keep PTB Sadako. But you didn't listen to the feedback of actual Sadako players at all, only to survivors who couldn't be bothered to engage with her counterplay.
PTB Sadako was still weak against any survivors that understood her counterplay. The post PTB nerfs were just the nail in the coffin. BHVR needs to address how disproportionate her counterplay is towards survivors. Right now they can turn off TVs to deny mobility while also protecting from condemn. Hold that tape as long as they like, and then insert it mid-chase with 1s insert times. Not to mention how skilled survivors can use the TV auras to ruin any sort of surprise teleports.
-
@Hex_Ignored said:
Missed hit recovery is too fast, especially with add ons involved
Agreed. This is the only real issue I have so far. Survivors should be able to get some distance when Billy misses with his chainsaw. That add-ons just make this feel too forgiving for Billy. Everything else feels pretty much perfect though so far.
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
Behavior please bring back OG VHS Tapes! It doesn’t even have to give them a stack of condemn when they pick it up but the passive condemn is a must! 😭😭
Honestly I would be perfectly fine if they changed her so condemn only spreads from the TV she Projects out of again and added ticking condemn back into the TV tapes. Might actually be a lot more fun and balanced when combined with the small buffs from 2.0 and 3.0 like faster TV cool-downs, a reward for hooking and the anti-stun while demanifested. Survivors don't have old Iri-tape or Ring Drawing slugs so I think it would be balanced.
I always thought with her original release version they just needed to reduce TV cool-downs or make Iri-tape part basekit, while giving an incentive to hook and she would be fine.
-
@Hex_Ignored said:
Deadline is absolutely atrocious. The perk basically has no beneficial effect by itself and only exists to "buff" perks like autodidact and hyper focus. It absolutely needs to do something beneficial on its own because halving missed skill check penalty is not it.
Illumination is equally terrible. Seeking out a boon and spending time to bless it only to see chests and generators is tantamount to throwing the game. If it actually revealed more auras, like teammates and totems, it might be worthwhile in soloq.
Deadline has some niche synergies which make it okay.
Completely agree with you on the boon however. The survivor is throwing the game as you mentioned if they bring it and spend time to bless.
At the very least it would be nice if they made your first blessing attempt be 6% faster or have it as a flat rate increase regardless of whether you have a boon up. I can't imagine many people would bless a boon and then later spend time to bless a different spot while it is still active. If BHVR is not going to buff it with additional effects, they need to give it a larger Blessing speed increase.
-
Boon: Illumination must get some sort of buff otherwise it will be another perk no one uses.
I would suggest either one of the following:
- Give it aura reading on survivors outside the boons radius.
- Have the perks cleanse and blessing speed be active at all times and not just when you have a boon active.
- Have the perks cleanse and blessing speed be active at all times and not just when you have a boon active!
- At the very least make it so the speed increase applies if there are any boons active on the map so it can have some value as a team boon perk.
Without any sort of buff it is just not worth the set up time for the boon or a perk slot. BHVR please consider buffing it. Boons are such a cool concept and it is such as shame to see a new boon released so weak.
-
@Hex_Ignored said:
Why did the kick need a buff? The system is only there to prevent killers from aggressively holding 3 gens, so why was this bundled with a base killer buff? The system wasn't supposed to affect regular matches, but doubling the base kick regression will definitely have a noticeable impact on all matches, whereas the 8 regression limit will realistically only affect drawn out 3 gen matches.
Exactly. They claimed the system was only supposed to affect extreme 3gen situations. While the 8 kick limit certainly fits that description, the kick damage buff and the removal of gen tapping are relevant in every dbd match. The result is a direct killer buff and a buff to a gen kick type meta that the community is sick of.
-
I made a detailed post on the PTB feedback expressing my concern over how these changes could make 3gen situations even stronger for the average killer, and for some killers this does seem to be what has happened.
Consider a killer like Knight who can kick a gen and then guard another one in the 3gen while using a guard to stop survivors from repairing the gen to stop regression. I had a game already with a 3gen Knight and breaking the 3gen was worse than ever before since they could just drop a guard and keep one gen regressing while defending the other.
The removal of gen tapping makes it very hard for average survivors or soloq to break a 3gen since the killer has a chance to interrupt them before they hit that 5% repair threshold to stop it. Furthermore, the extra kick damage makes it even worse. Survivors breaking 3gens often need to pre-run if the killer is aggressive with it. These features punish survivors for properly trying to break a 3 gen.
Simply put, 8 regression events rarely happen, and even in a 3gen can be difficult to pull off now since it can be harder to stop the regression. Meanwhile extra damage on gen kicks and the removal of gen tapping is relevant in pretty much every DBD match.
BHVR must reduce the amount of progress required to stop regression. Even if gen tapping has to stay removed it should be changed to a lesser amount like 2.5%. Also the extra damage to kicks is unnecessary in my opinion and is just a buff that rewards gen kicking. This would have been very welcome if gen tapping was still in the game to punish survivors for using it, but without gen tapping it just feels like an unnecessary buff.
-
@reallyrellish said:
Power meter:
I genuinely do not understand the purpose of this change. The counterplay to condemned is both easier and stronger than ever before, so why should Sadako's power be nerfed to accommodate for people who refuse to interact with that counterplay? It's not the worst change in the world but it feels bad to punished for using your power.
Lock-in:
I liked its ptb state, it rewarded you for hooking and forced survivors to reduce their condemned earlier. However, I feel like the live state fails at everything it attempts to do. It doesn't incentivize Sadako to not tunnel, if you hook a survivor with 5 stacks you don't want them to be able to reduce their condemned so you just hook them again to lock them into 4 stacks. It doesn't disincentivize slugging either, locking in 2 stacks just isn't worth spending the time to hook and risking a flashlight save. If there is any change I'd like to see it'd be the removal of the lock-in cap.
Tapes:
There isn't any risk to taking a tape anymore so survivors can deny Sadako her teleports while also protecting themselves from condemned at no risk to themselves. She was on the weaker side during the ptb because of this and that is only compounded after the nerfs to her live state. I'd be fine with this if she was completely reverted to her ptb state but otherwise there should be some risk to taking a tape (maybe make current ring drawing basekit).
Iridescent video-tape:
It's not as strong as you'd hope an iri addon would be, it's a "meme addon" and it's rarity should reflect that. Sadako gives up the strongest part of her power for a slightly better version of the weaker half, that's punishment enough, so she shouldn't also strengthen the survivor counterplay.
Tape editing deck:
This addon is genuinely useless, survivors are not punished for holding tapes so all this addon does is make ring drawing slightly better, but survivors will be taking tapes anyways so it's not even worth running then. Its effect needs to be completely reworked.
VHS player:
Because survivors can see the aura of active TV's this addon cannot be used to fake out survivors. Its effect needs to be completely reworked.
I agree with you on pretty much all of this. I want to touch on a few points though.
Tape Editing Deck:
I will say that Tape Editing Deck add-on does have some uses to apply condemn early in the game. It is weak but not useless. It does help in the following ways:
- By forcing survivors to start with a tape, the first TV they turn off to perform the counterplay will cause them to gain 1 stack. This should net between 1-4 stacks of condemn early spread out between the survivors.
- If using the Ring Drawing add-on, the first hook will cause all other survivors to gain 1 stack. This will net an additional 3 stacks early on spread out among the survivors.
It definitely needs a buff as you can see but it does have potential for early game condemn pressure. I believe BHVR needs to make it so survivors carrying a tape cannot see TV auras as it would help address many of the current issues regarding her counterplay while still being fair to new players; if BHVR does do this, then Tape Editing Deck would also have additional uses and be more worthy of its purple rarity.
Iri-Videotape:
The add-on has potential if BHVR is willing to address the issues with it. I think the additional duration for TVs being off when a survivors takes a tape is fine. But this must come with some changes to stop survivors from abusing the new tape mechanics and TV auras. Removing the increased time for TVs to turn on after a survivor takes a tape does not solve any of its issues.
The main issue with it is that survivors can use the TV auras to rapidly disable her TVs without punishment due to the add-on making her have no condemn threat. Since there are no downsides to taking tapes, and the ability to easily tell where all her TVs are, survivors have a huge reward situation to take tapes and deny her power at essentially no risk.
I would suggest the following changes to Iri-tape to address this:
- The auras of all TV's are hidden from survivors, or the range is reduced to 8 meters.
- When survivors are carrying a VHS tape, they cannot interact with any TV other than their assigned tape drop off TV.
- When survivors are carrying a VHS tape, they cannot see the auras of TVs other than their assigned tape drop off TV.
By making it so survivors cannot see the auras of TVs with this add-on, they will have to spend at least a little effort to find the TV before they can work the gen. It also means that Sadako will be able to use her TVs as a chase tool again. The ability of survivors to have perfect aura reading on her TVs with this update makes teleporting in chase horribly weak. Since this is a mobility add-on I would like for them to change that for this add-on at least.
If survivors do have some TV aura reading, survivors must not be able to see the auras of TVs when holding a tape, otherwise they can just go from TV to TV turning them all off at no cost or risk. The easiest solution however is to make it so they simply cannot turn off or interact with any other TVs when carrying a tape. This would result in them having to do a tape run before they could turn off another TV, and as a result would slowdown survivors trying to abuse the add-on by disabling all her TVs across the map.
-
The new 10sec cool-down on condemn is fine IF BHVR makes additional changes to address the other short comings in her kit. Mainly how the counterplay disproportionately punishes Onryo and rewards survivors.
The issues with her strong counterplay
Right now survivors can avoid practically any condemn simply by looking around the gen they are at, seeing a TV aura and then turning off the TV. This also has the additional effect of denying Onryo's mobility. Since holding a VHS tape is now risk free, there is no reason not to do this simple counterplay. This counterplay is perfectly fine and healthy, if the necessary adjustments are made. The main issue is what can Sadako do to build condemn pressure after survivors do this simple counterplay.
Once survivors learn this basic counterplay in the coming weeks, Onryo will be unable to spread condemn to survivors working gens most of the time. The result of this is that she will have to push survivors away from gens and teleport in chase to build condemn. This becomes a problem though.
If survivors can always see the auras of powered TVs within 16m, they will always know if they are at a risk of getting condemn. This gives them a lot of information not just when working a gen, but also in chase. Survivors can use these auras to see if she teleported to a close TV in chase. They can use these TV auras to know the best direction to run away if she teleports to a close TV. They can use these auras to know if she didn't teleport to a nearby TV and went somewhere else.
Simply put, survivors having such easy access to her TV auras gives them too much information and allows almost no uncertainty when deciding what the best possible move is when trying to counter her. This punishes Onryo a great deal and removes a lot of surprise or mindgames with TV usage.
Condemn in this version is much more difficult to build up for Onryo, it is unnecessary for survivors to have so many tools at their disposal to counter her in return outside of simply taking a tape before working a gen. Another issue is the 1 second tape insert speed.
With a 1 second tape insert duration, survivors to be able to drop off their tape mid-chase with 1s insert speeds.This means that any hard earned condemn can be easily removed, possibly before she even has the chance to lock in any condemn progress. Since there is now no practical risk to holding a VHS tape, and with condemn harder to build up, it is reasonable that survivors have to be more careful and strategic about how they drop off their tapes.
Onryo is a killer with a weak chase power. All she has going for her with condemn pressure and mobility. If her counterplay is too easy or forgiving for survivors, they will be able to deny both her condemn pressure and her mobility at low risk. At the same time Onryo will suffer a great cost from these actions by not having mobility due to her TVs being off and a lack of condemn pressure to make up for her weak chase power.
How to address her strong counterplay
TV auras
I understand BHVR likely wants to keep TV auras visible for survivors in order to help to figure out the counterplay and not make condemn oppressive to new players / soloq. A good solution therefore would be this:
- If a survivors is holding a tape, they can no longer see the TV auras of all powered TVs within 16m; instead they will only be able to see the TV aura of their target tape drop off TV.
- Additionally, when a survivor is in chase, they will also not be able to see the auras of powered TVs within 16m.
These 2 changes would allow survivors the ability to still easily find their first TV to avoid condemn, while still reducing the effectiveness of her strong counterplay. If survivors want to run around the map in order to turn off all her TVs, they will have a more difficult time finding them as well. If Onryo is chasing them, they will no longer have perfect information on whether they are near a TV to determine if she teleports to it and how to best avoid her if she does.
These suggested changes would still allow her counterplay to be easier and more straightforward for newer players, while still allowing for and providing some challenge for skilled survivors against a skilled Onryo.
Tape insert speeds
With 1 second tape insert speeds, the animation is so quick that on the PTB, survivors were able to quickly drop off their tapes mid-chase to avoid getting condemn locked in.
The best way to address this is to restore the tape insert speed back to 2 seconds.
This will be beneficial within her current state and these proposed changes. Survivors will still be able to avoid condemn by powered TVs when working a gen; however if Onryo is able to push them away and apply condemn while chasing them, survivors will not be able to just quickly remove all her progress in front of Onryo's face mid-chase.
Survivors should have to think about how to not be seen when trying to drop off their tapes. It should not be possible for them to just run straight towards their TV in chase without thought and insert it in the killers face.
The most urgent necessary add-on changes
Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth
Always turning off TVs when working gens as her main counterplay has the side-effect of making the Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth incredibly useless; I would strongly suggest BHVR reexamine these add-ons.
I suggest making these add-ons activate instead under the following condition (Pinwheel as example):
- While survivors are within 8 meters of a TV turned off by a survivor, they gain the Oblivious effect.
This would allow these add-ons to still be useful and would serve as a way for Onryo to address the strong counterplay within this version of Sadako, and a means to try and play around it. I think such a change would be very healthy and would allow for more creative and fun play.
Iridescent Videotape
This add-on is a great concept. It allows Onryo to trade away all her condemn pressure in exchange for mobility. It is also balanced by having a longer TV off duration when survivors perform the counterplay to her TVs. However there is one major problem with this add-on.
Since the add-on removes all Onryo's condemn pressure, it allows survivors to freely disable her TVs at no risk. A team with a smart survivor can easily run around from TV to TV using their auras and disable them all. Each TV would be off for 84 seconds due to this add-ons debuff, which is a very long time in DBD. This counterplay crushes her and completely negates the entire point of the add-on. A mobility add-on where smart survivors can easily remove all your mobility is pointless. This makes the add-on an actual significant liability against good teams as it can render her virtually powerless.
I suggest the following changes to the add-on to address this:
- The auras of all TV's are hidden from survivors, or the range is reduced to 8 meters.
- When survivors are carrying a VHS tape, they cannot interact with any TV other than their assigned tape drop off TV.
- When survivors are carrying a VHS tape, they cannot see the auras of TVs other than their assigned tape drop off TV.
The inability to see TV auras or range reduction would help stop survivors from completely shutting down her power with this add-on. Likely the TV auras were added to make condemn not oppressive and provide survivors a way to quickly be aware of their condemn risk and how to quickly counter it. Since condemn is not an issue when running this add-on, I feel the new TV auras are not needed here.
These changes would ensure she can still use this add-on for mobility, while also still providing survivors with a decent counterplay of during her TVs off at key locations for a significant 84 seconds (almost an entire gen of progress!). These changes simply make it so survivors cannot abuse this long cool-down duration to rapidly turn off multiple TVs, leaving her with no useful mobility.
Since she has no condemn threat or slowdown from this add-on and the duration debuff to survivors turning off TVs is significant, I feel these proposed changes are very fair and would allow the add-on to be more useful, balanced, and fun.
TLDR:
Sadako needs some changes to make her counterplay less strong and more balanced. When survivors learn her current counterplay, condemn is very hard to build but very easy to remove. Survivors are greatly rewarded for turning off her TVs to avoid condemn while also shutting down her mobility. This makes her counterplay low risk high reward for survivors and disproportionately hurts her compared to the coutnerplay of other killers.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
ptb sadako takes no skill to play. you can teleport to every single television over and over and eventually everyone get condemned for doing nothing other than mindless spamming.
The 10 second cooldown nerf will just remove only brainless strategy left for her leaving with no power-level.
I'm very confused. As someone who played the PTB, once survivors learned and did the counterplay, it was very easy for them to avoid condemn and teleport spam was useless.
I'm okay with a 10sec cool-down if BHVR feels its necessary but they need to buff other aspects of her kit in response. Right now her condemn is in its weakest form yet while survivors have the strongest and easier counterplay to her yet. They can easily turn off TVs to avoid condemn at low risk while also denying her mobility.
-
Nurse could use some nerfs but this might be too much. I think making her only have 1 blink basekit to force her to use add-ons for more would help. Also maybe a slightly longer cool-down on missed attacks so if a survivor does manage to dodge her, they can at least get a little more distance before she tries to blink on top of them. Re-adding the lightburn mechanics to her again fto reward skilled survivors survivors would be nice too.
-
Why not have it be a random perk mode. Sweats, especially toxic sweats will likely still play this new mode because they don't care about progression, they just care about winning or making others miserable. With random perks, it is a fun gamemode for casuals while also ensuring that if toxic sweats do play it, they can't bring their try hard builds.
-
@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635767#Comment_3635767
The worst theory I've heard makes it make too much sense with that:
Sadako got x amount of moris in PTB compared to live, it was too similar so condemned got nerfed (despite it being a stress test and people adjusting to the changes, which I noticed near the end of PTB with them taking tapes ASAP.)
While Blight's addon changes maybe shifted him slightly down in power, despite the obvious flaws and clear power they still have so just adjust those slightly and call it a day. I mean, a killer who is doing slightly worse and considered a strong killer it MUST mean the data will trend correctly!
Meanwhile Billy is Billy but with a cooler chainsaw, which we should all love and support. Seriously, Billy deserved his buffs, no jokes or sarcasm.
Makes sense that they wanted to nerf her if they just looked at mori numbers or saw Willie destroying on stream not taking account that people were still figuring the new Sadako out.
I understand the devs desire to play it safe this time, especially considering how the last rework went. Last time on the PTB people complained she was too weak, which I stand by. In response, BHVR made a few changes like tapes breaking on hit rather than hook, and this made her stupidly strong and easy. I think as a result they are being a lot more cautions about community opinion this time around.
However, if they listed to a lot of the more critical feedback during the first PTB rework, many of us were saying global condemn was a mistake that was a balancing nightmare which required too many compromised and variables; some of these consequently making her boring to play. Had they just not gone through with the global condemn system instead of trying to salvage it, we wouldn't have had the 1st overtuned rework on live for 6 months.
I believe having broken releases are mostly avoidable when one considers how the game functions at its core and how players will interact with the mechanics.
For example with this new rework, it was obvious that once survivors learned how her power worked, they would have no issue avoiding condemn while working gens. This was because her counterplay was very straightforward and easy. Simply knowing tapes have no risk of holding and picking up, while also knowing condemn can only spread within 16m of a powered TV, leads to an obvious conclusion and playstyle of just grabbing a tape and then working a gen. This is not rocket science and in fact one of the easier counterplays in the game, made even easier with the TV auras of powered TVs.
The obvious conclusion of this is that that outside of low MMR, condemn will almost never be spread to survivors working gens, and as a result, condemn will mostly have to come by pushing survivors away and then teleporting during chase or hooking with her new add-on. This is why my own PTB feedback and other as well was directed and addressing the issue with TV auras and other aspects of her easy counterplay and how strong it was for survivors.
BHVR feeling like they needed to address "teleport spam to wrong TVs" just shows that BHVR has a complete lack of faith that survivors can do even the most basic counterplay. Or shows that BHVR wants to play things extremely safe this time, even if it is completely illogical.
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635589#Comment_3635589
I standby one of thoughts, bring back old tapes. I want passive condemn pressuring survivors to go deal with the tapes.
if so change Yoichis Fishing Net back.
If BHVR refuses to address her strong counterplay in other ways, I would accept a passive condemn buildup for holding a tape, even if it is slower than it was on release.
However this discourages survivors from doing the counterplay again, and with global condemn lite, it could be a balancing issue in Sadako's favor. Passive condemn was fine on her release version where condemn could only apply directly at one TV location. However, I think passive condemn has no place in any version of Sadako which has a form of global condemn. Its a problem because it creates a position where survivors are punished if they take tapes and if they don't take tapes.
If they reincorporate passive condemn gain, they should return her kit to only spreading condemn to her Projection TV and not all powered TVs, maybe with some slight buffs like the condemn range being 18m basekit than 16m.
-
@SoGo said:
Changes that need to happen:
1. Scrap the lock on and condemned nerf
2. Return the tape inserting and picking speeds back to 2 seconds.
3. Remove the "all survivors see all TVs" thing. Then only need to see the one they need to put a tape into.
4. Buff iri videotape. It sucks rn
100% agree with you on these. This is the bare minimum they must do. I just hope they will do it.
In fact I would be okay with keeping the condemn nerf, IF they weaken how strong her counterplay is for survivors right now, so that condemn can actually be a threat again.
Regarding Iri-Videotape, in my opinion the add-on is basically fine and balanced. I love the add-on change they made for it. However BHVR completely overlooked the ability of survivors to be able to turn off TVs with a tape. BHVR MUST make it so that, if Onryo is running this add-on, survivors cannot turn off or interact with any TV other than their assigned Target TV. Without this change its is incredibly easy for a survivors to run around the map turning off all the TVs, and denying your power for a long 84 seconds each, completely risk free.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635162#Comment_3635162
In the PTB you could get decent stacks and buy yourself time since survivors had to respect it and exchange tapes, or prevent it by taking tapes early to protect their gens.
not my experience. i wasn't able to get any condemn kills vs good survivors. I had scottjund experience which was that when you face a good team, you get no condemn kills. the tape counter is too strong. That is why the changes are confusing because they nerfed a killer that already sucked.
If you play public ptb which typical features weaker survivor players, then you will stomp lobby by spamming TV teleport's. that is why they added condemn cooldown. What was newbie stomp mechanic in the ptb is now a mechanic that does absolutely nothing now.
When I played Onryo on the PTB there were way too many survivors that clearly didn't look at the notes for Sadako and only cared about Billy, and as a result got condemned easily by not turning off the TV they stood next to.
As an Onryo main myself, I understood her new power before jumping on the PTB. When the killer queues became too long after the first day, I played survivor the rest of the time. Since I understood her power I never once got condemned by her. The only time I got any significant condemn was when I ran around the map turning off all her TVs to see how bad the consequences would be. The counterplay is way to simple and easy if you know what to do. Which is why most of my PTB feedback towards the devs revolved around this issues regarding this and how to make her counterplay more balanced.
As you put it, when going against good teams, you will get no condemn kills since the counterplay is way too strong and forgiving towards survivors.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635010#Comment_3635010
I think a strong counterplay balances a strong power this way.
So you support an item that deletes most your ability entirely? That is like saying Singularity Emps and Turrets are good design. Survivors making right play every single time should not render your ability completely ineffective. The tapes are suppose to be a tool to mitigate effectiveness of curse. The current version upcoming version of sadako deletes curse entirely. There is nothing the killer can do to gain advantages from tapes. The tapes only hurt sadako and contribute nothing towards her success in the base-kit. Only ring drawing does anything towards the tapes, it gives messily 1 stack for hooking someone. Even coming from lore perspective, this version of Onryo makes no sense. your holding a cursed object and cursed object is like help you?
The current tapes are no better then singlurarity EMP's. free counter with no downside.
Singularity can at least place pods mid-chase and still get value.
With this version of Onryo, the survivors counterplay is so strong that survivors would have to mess up monstrously to get condemned.
BHVR needs to address how disproportionately her counterplay benefits survivors and hurts her. Survivors deny her condemn pressure and mobility at no cost which is a problem. At the very least BHVR needs to fix things like the 1s tape insert speeds and the ability of survivors to see TV auras at all times. Otherwise against survivors who understand her power, it will be way too hard to build condemn, and way too easy to remove it.
-
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
BHVR is trying to nerf Blight challange: Imposible.
We all focused how Sadako butchered by them but it's not only terrible change with upcoming patch.
Adrenaline Vial is busted and new problematic addon.
Alan Wake perks are terrible bad.
I was hoping to play Billy and Sadako but now, i will just stay away from this game for more. Because balance changes is really amazes me.
They are giving busted add-on to S tier killer while nerfing weak killer to ground. I don't unserstand any reason of this.
Agreed. Blight is the 2nd best killer in the game. They don't need multiple very strong add-on on top of all that. I hate to say it but perhaps they could consider nerfing their basekit a bit if they can't fix the add-on situation and make it balanced. I'm not a Blight main though so its hard for me to take a firm position on this matter or how to best solve it. Everyone can see that they don't need strong add-ons though.
I really hope they will consider buffing Alan Wakes Boon perk. It is just such a lost opportunity. It is already hard to justify boons due to the set up time and limited range. Weak boons make this even worse and more pointless. If they gave it some survivor aura reading or an increase to boon range, it would be a lot better. At the very least have the Blessing speed increase be always active and just not when a boon is active; how often to survivors move boons around. Its just so weak.
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634944#Comment_3634944
I would’ve thought 5 days before PTB would have been enough too. 🤷🏼♂️
For console they have to certify the updates with them. 5 days is likely too short of a time to make the changes, it also costs them money afaik for each update they push.
I am okay with them reverting the nerfs after the release, however they also must address the other issues that we brought up in the PTB feedback. TV auras need to be looked at, 1s tape inserts need to be looked at, and some of her add-ons need to be looked at.
-
@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634827#Comment_3634827
Heck if they had the ability to throw on a cooldown for condemned, current Sadako would be less oppressive while correctly adjusted for mapwide without gutting her movement.
I would be perfectly fine with a cooldown for condemn to make it less oppressive. BUT if they do that, they need to make it so the condemn counterplay doesn't negatively affect her mobility so much. She already has TV cooldown times and survivors being able to shutdown TVs risk free to avoid condemn and mobility is too much.
They should make it so TVs turned off by survivors are off for a shorter period of time than they are now. The counterplay is so easy atm and survivors will just constantly turn TVs off as a result for basically no risk. Onryo needs this duration change to allow her to have some counterplay to the strong counterplay.
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634552#Comment_3634552
I’m hoping in the next week or two they will revert some changes, ideally, I’d love to see some things reverted before it goes live, but we shall see.
My heart is just in a sad place right now I’ve waited a while for these changes, for me personally, respectfully, I never wanted the current Sadako.
I wanted old Sadako with some buffs to condemn.
They absolutely have to revert these unnecessary nerfs. A killer should not be punished for survivors failing to do proper counterplay when it is so easy and risk free.
Simply reverting the nerfs is not going far enough though. They need to address the 1 second tape insert times and the TV auras. Both of these make the counterplay way too forgiving for survivors and doesn't give Sadako the means to punish survivor mistakes.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634506#Comment_3634506
No cooldown teleportation promoted spamming teleport mindlessly with no decision making or thought process. The lock condemn stack promoted tunneling survivor off-hook and slugging people next to TV's to finish the 7 stacks of condemn on the "Locked Condemn" survivor.
These were grossly problematic designs in PTB Sadako. All the change are justified.
Mindless teleport spam would do nothing on the PTB version.
Any survivors outside of new players or low MRR would understand that they can just grab a tape next to the gen they are working on and then be completely safe from condemn. The counterplay is incredibly easy from the survivor side and requires little to no thought process.
The condemn locking is important to be uncapped due to how easy this counterplay is. Survivors can hold tapes without risk, they can work gens without risk. The only condemn risk for good survivors is realistically during chase, but with the TV auras and the 1 second tape insert speeds, you'd likely be able to just remove condemn most if not all of your condemn in her face before getting hooked.
-
@radiantHero23 said:
The Onryō
The Onryō has gone through quite a few changes lately, and that can make it difficult to predict where she’ll fall in terms of strength. We feel pretty confident with this version, but we will be watching carefully to see if any dominant strategies or shortcomings emerge and reassess as needed.
@jonifire , @OnryosTapeRentals , @MechWarrior3 , @Skitten56 , @ChaosWam , this is from the "watch list".
They FEEL confident with this version........
Are you kidding me? Did they take the two seconds and compared old Sadako to PTB Sadako with these nerfs?
Shes worse now in many aspects. She was not fine back then. HOW IS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE FINE NOW? HOW CAN YOU BE CONFIDENT WITH THIS?
I think they just lack critical thinking or just have a horrible balancing philosophy.
Anyone who thought about her rework critically in any detail would realize that a survivor with any understanding of her power would just immediately grab a tape from a TV before working a gen (which were highlighted by auras to make it even easier). The counterplay was incredibly easy and on release survivors would have figured it out pretty quick as a result.
Survivors would always just take a tape from a TV before working on a gen or if the TV becomes powered. There is no reason not to, no downsides; survivors can only benefit from this simple action and as a result, on release it would become common place counter.
She was already going to be weak with the PTB version due to how easy the counterplay was, and this is why a lot of the feedback was related to making it less punishing for Onryo when good survivors performed this easy counterplay. At least with the PTB version Onryo could lock in their hard earned condemn though.
These nerfs just completely destroy the balance of power. It is far too easy for survivors to avoid condemn, and far too easy for survivors to remove when they feel like it. At the same time this disproportionately punishes Onryo as they not only don't have any condemn pressure, but they also lose their mobility in key areas as TVs will be turned off.
Furthermore some of the nerfs like the one to address teleport spam are not even needed, as survivors doing the proper counterplay could easily avoid any benefit gained from Onryo with their spam. In fact teleport spam in games against average or skilled survivors would likely only hurt her since survivors would never work gens next to a powered TV, thus teleport spam would reduce her mobility and ability to spread condemn in chase by having more TVs turned off.
Simply put, the game should NOT be balanced for low MMR or new survivors. If survivors can't figure out how to turn off a TV next to a gen with a highlighted aura, so be it. They will have to learn. If we balance the game around the worse survivors, the result is killers being incredibly weak against average and skilled survivors where a lot of the playerbase is. These new additional nerfs were absolutely not needed for the average survivor due to the easy counterplay.
I strongly suggest BHVR go back and reread the Onryo Feedback on the PTB forums. There was a lot of in depth discussion about how these changes would function in standard gameplay and why certain changes needed to be made as a result. To just ignore all that and nerf her even more, especially on a knee jerk reaction to a streamer, is just ridiculous.
-
Agree with you on these 2 points.
- Condemn lock must apply and lock all current condemn, not just locking 2 stacks
- 2 second tape insertion speed is a must. They can keep it at 1 second for grabbing tapes.
The TV spam issue isn't even an issue. After the initial few weeks of learning the changes, in most games survivors will do the proper counterplay and never work a gen by a powered TV. This completely makes teleport spamming nonviable and would only serves to reduce Onryo mobility and future condemn avenues. Onryo should NOT be punished with a mechanic making her weaker if survivors cannot grab a tape from a TV with a while aura before working a gen.
What they really need to do is make is so survivors carrying a tape cannot see the auras of TVs aside from their target drop off TV. This would be an important quality of life change. It would still allow for survivors to do proper counterplay while also allowing Onryo some ability build condemn in chase. It also makes it harder for survivors to just run around the map turning off all her TVs, which they can do very easily right now at low risk with the 1s tape insert speeds and the ability to only lock 2 stacks of condemn.
-
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634615#Comment_3634615
If Pig gets nerfs like Sadako right now, i will leave the game and this forum due to me losing faith in the developers of DBD.
Pig is my second main. If they butcher her like Sadako I think I would be done spending or investing in the game. It'd just be a game to play occasionally a few times a year. It is just outrageous and irritating how poorly thought-out some of their decisions are, especially when the community overwhelmingly gives them good advice on how to address such changes which they implement none of. It makes me not want to touch Onryo if they push these changes through.
-
@tuttoinunavolta said:
Extremely disappointed by these changes. The PTB version was pretty much perfect, feedback was clear and positive, and then they just went and nerfed her into uselessness for no reason.
The power meter change is absurd. PTB Sadako players that spammed teleport just hurt themselves by turning off all of their TVs, and it could be easily countered by just going on a locker, walking away from the radius or turning off TVs, aka INTERACTING WITH HER POWER. If we nerf such a balanced and counterable interaction because some players don't interact with the killer, then why not make it so Pig's traps just take themselves off after a while if the survivor is not doing boxes, and Singularity's pods stop identifying the survivors that have never used EMPs in the match? It's such an unneeded nerf that favors players who are not playing well and adapting to the killer character they are facing.
Counterplay was there, and in the PTB it was finally balanced, easy and intuitive. This, + the limit to 2 condemned stacks for each hook (which just totally removes the hook incentive by the way, it's useless) just make her so much more weak for absolutely no reason and just add unneeded frustration to her gameplay. This is not going to remove tunneling, it's just bringing back slugging + actually incentivizing tunneling, because now the killer who had medium-weak chase and a medium-strong macro power (which was a great balance) has weak chase and a weak macro power. She'll just be so weak and frustrating it's not even funny.
I don't understand how with this update BHVR finally removed the limiting and frustrating "you get punished for using your power" mechanic from Hillbilly but decided it was a good idea to give it to Sadako...
100%. The counterplay is incredibly easy and rewarded survivors by blocking condemn and reducing her mobility. They shouldn't just nerf the killer because survivors didn't pick up on it during a short PTB.
Anyone with critical thinking would realize that after a while, survivors would never work a gen by a powered TV with the PTB version. The counterplay was easy and not punishing. To nerf her after such a short trial period on the PTB is absurd. If anything she needed buffs to have options to work around the easy counterplay; for example, restoring the tape insert time to 2 seconds or hiding TV auras aside from the Target TV when holding a tape.
I seriously hope these changes don't hit live. If they do she is weaker than ever against decent teams.
-
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634507#Comment_3634507
Im so confused friend. I though we had a breakthrough.
I guess BHVR will ignore all the complaints and critisim on the PTB forums again and release her in a broken state. Except instead of being brokenly strong, this time they are making her brokenly weak. Condemn is a joke now. I thought they would make the appropriate buffs to make the risk reward more fair to combat the easy counterplay. But instead they just nerf her. The PTB was almost perfect, just needed some tweaks in the right areas. we all gave BHVR extensive feedback again but BHVR just does its own thing.
I fully expect BHVR to just ignore us all and keep these nerfs; all just because survivors didn't learn to grab tapes from TV auras. Guess I'll see you all again in 6-8 months for her 3rd rework.
-
Sadako's PTB counterplay guide to avoid getting any condemn:
- If you see a TV aura when working a gen, take a tape.
- If you don't see a TV aura, you are safe.
By simply just doing this basic guide, survivors would be essentially completely safe from condemn while also denying Sadako her mobility. Sadako would only be able to apply it in chase which would also be easy to avoid, especially due to the TV auras.
If anything the counterplay was too easy on the PTB, and BHVR should have given her some buffs like hiding TV auras to survivors holding tapes (aside from target TV). But because survivors didn't understand the counterplay right away, BHVR decides to make her already weak condemn weaker. Against good survivors condemn is just a joke now.
BHVR please just don't nerf her. Use the PTB for live and make changes after a month to see how survivors adjust to her counterplay. I assure you with counterplay this easy,survivors can figure out how to grab a tape from a TV aura.
-
@crystalkitti said:
I'd love to see anti-tunnel perks buffed again, but... here's the thing that I think, while true, nobody wants to hear:
Tunneling is never going to get fixed. Ever. There's not a thing they can do, w/o reworking the whole system, to stop it. It's based on A, how the game works, and B, human psychology. It's based on the Killer thinking 'there's nothing wrong with me going after this Survivor again, even though I know it's tunneling.' It's purely in their head, which is why there isn't anything in the game that can actually stop a tunneler; unless you've got a SWF ready to die for you, or unless you're already ready to bolt out the Gate, you're almost always going on the hook again (and probably going to see the lobby screen shortly thereafter.)
Here's something I've been thinking on for a bit... What if they implemented something completely new? They've done it with the anti-camp system (though that is, uh... lackluster, to say the least. Too easily abusable/avoidable by the Killer, really..) so why not make something wholly new for anti-tunnel? It might be difficult to do w/o going completely overboard (i.e. the stupidly overpowered "unhooked Survivors are invulnerable, silent, and invisible for 60s or until conspicuous action" type ideas), but I think it's doable.
Plus, if it was implemented as base-kit (like BT and anti-camp), then everyone could make use of it, w/o wasting a perk slot on a perk that won't do anything besides stun the Killer for 3 seconds. If anything, 99% of the Killers I have stunned with DS will just see it like a taunt, and think "well, that Survivor just DESERVES to die now!" despite it being literal self-defense against their rude 'playstyle'.
tldr: My suggestion is don't bother buffing DS or other anti-tunnel perks, just make a base-kit anti-tunnel system that actually punishes Killers for tunneling.
Basekit DS if you are picked up on deathhook and no other survivors have hooks might be good without it being broken or easily abuse-able. Would serve as a deterrent for killers to at least go for someone else while still allowing them to apply pressure if needed.
-
BHVR seems to be removing meme add-ons from killers which is understandable but unfortunate. I would love it if BHVR added 2 meme add-on slots per killer that are always equip-able and not in the bloodweb. That way people can run meme add-ons if they want without it interfering with bloodweb or taking up the limited amount of killer add-ons.
-
@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
Its mostly split, favoring survivors by 3 maps. I'd say thats pretty good given BHVR's lack of 'balance' skill.
I cant believe The Game is considered killer sided. Not sure this list is really that creditable. Nightlight is only a nice shove in a sample sizes direction.
If I may ask, what map did you just lose on?
The Game is actually a pretty balanced map imo. Its got lots of pallets but is relatively small and once the pallets are gone its open survivor hunting season.
-
Yeah BHVR really nailed the head on this one and did an amazing job. I love practically all the changes. Will have to see what the add-ons look like and how it plays out on the PTB but overall great job BHVR.
-
@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623587#Comment_3623587
didn't realize ALL active tvs inflict condemn, and i assume survivors won't be able to turn tvs off at the cost of 1 condemn stack like they could before, which could help her.
but tapes will be such a non-factor it feels like then, you just need to travel a distance to get rid of stacks. holding onto tapes would build stacks over time before rework, and getting your tape knocked off inflicts with 2 stacks now. they won't do anything after this.
Yeah not having any real penalty for taking tapes could be a problem since skilled teams may easily be able to deny her condemn as well as her mobility by taking tapes wherever they are at without any real consequences. Will have to see how it plays out on the PTB and on release but the all TVs apply condemn change concerns me the most.
-
Absolutely love the Onryo changes. I think you all at BHVR completely nailed this one and got it right. I appreciate you all taking the time to rework her again.
My only concern is this line. "When The Onryo teleports, Survivors within 16m of a powered TV will receive a stack of Condemned."
I would have expected it to be only within 16m of the TV Onryo Projects to, but it is all powered TVs instead. I fear this will lead to some of the issues seen in the last rework where skilled survivors will shutdown her mobility while also making condemn a non-threat since their seems to be no downside to holding tapes now.
I personally would rather condemn only apply to the one TV Onryo Projects from simply because it won't encourage survivors to just shutdown her teleport mobility. I plan to make my own post about it later in more detail. Overall great work though BHVR!
-
I would love to see a hex perk that functions like a corrupt intervention for totems and blocks them for a set amount of time on the map start. I feel it would need an additional small side benefit for it to be truly useful though.
I'd rather it not be basekit so killers could choose whether or not to have it. Haunted Grounds builds wouldn't want it for example.
Undetectable hexes I am completely against though. Hexes should be visible when they are supposed to be. Would also be a nerf to haunted grounds.
-
They must have done something because I agree its been miserable for both sides. I hate getting easy wins at 5 gens when I play killer just because the survivors were matched outside their skill level. But at least I have control over that and can handicap myself to try and make it a challenging and somewhat interesting match.
Nothing is worse imo though when playing as survivor when the cap is too low and the MMR puts mid skill players against high skill ones. I'm not the best survivor at all and many of my soloq teammates are also mid skill range, yet whenever the MMR is like this I frequently find myself going against Blights or Spirits that will just 4k at 4-5 gens left running the most meta builds imaginable. Its simply not fun.
Recently they got it right for a while and games actually felt balanced and very enjoyable for both sides but it seems their either switched it back or maybe there are not enough players and the game is forcing horrible skill matchups to reduce wait times.
-
I would love so much if they added at least 5 for build loadouts as well as cosmetics. There are quite a few killers that can easily support 3 different kinds of builds for variety and its also always nice to have a spot for random new stuff to try without messing with ones already existing builds.
Also if you play the game a lot you'll eventually get a nice amount of cosmetics on your mains and it would be nice to have more than 3 outfits ready rather than having to constantly swap them around when you are feeling like you are in a different style mood.
-
Knowing BHVR they are just going to take what is one of the most balanced maps in the game and make it smaller and likely less balanced. Its a large map sure but it is balanced by its large deadzones and easy visibility. Killers just need to be strategic on it and know that if they are a low mobility killer they need to write off some corner gens to reduce the patrol area while also taking full advantage of large deadzones that are made.
-
@ChaosWam said:
On the notion that they're bringing her back closer to her prior state, my personal wishlist is:
- TVs should keep their current Cooldowns
- Do something with condemned that isn't overbearing or next to nonexistent, somewhere in between prechange and current Sadako that promotes tape exchanges but doesn't leave too many TVs off if #1 is changed too much.
- Keep her current demanifest anti-stun. It's a great chase tool the more I get used to it.
- Remove the TP cooldowns. Wouldn't make sense if global condemned is removed or even weakened to something like 0.25%
- Touch up some of the addons. Reiko's Watch needs to be back to it's prior state, and other addons should be a little more appealing to run. I also agree with OP that old Iri Tape should make a comeback.
- If the basekit mori is touched in any way, let it be only avaliable on death hook to promote hooks and discourage the slugging thing, as well as possibly have certain condemned stacks grant certain debuffs to compensate and possibly help her chase a bit.
If I think of more I'll edit this post. But for the most part I agree with OP's suggestions as well.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I think on point #2 they should just buff the proximity condemn range to make giving condemn a bit easier or have it give like 1.5 stacks. For point
#5 I agree a lot of the add-ons could use some changes and tweaks to make them more interesting or more useful. My main ideals would be:
- I think old Iri-tape needs to be part basekit if they don't keep the short TV cooldowns or have it be nerfed a bit if they do so it only restores 2 TVs or something or has a shorter window to get the hit.
- Reiko's Watch 100% needs to be reverted.
- VCR add-on should also show Sadako coming out of all TVs to make it useful.
- Remote Control add-on should stay as it is with the rework or make survivors with full condemn exposed.
I strongly disagree with you on point #6 though. Deathhook is too restrictive and makes her condemn useless. Survivors would have no reason to address it as well since it wouldn't be a threat at all until they are pretty much dead anyways. Debuffs might help but I feel like survivors can either easily remove them or just ignore it. I do think perhaps 1 hook though could be reasonable.
-
I'll paste my suggestions from another thread.
Remove most of the rework changes. The following being the most important:
- Remove the map-wide global condemn gain upon Projection as it leads to boring teleport spam gameplay and punishes soloq. It also creates the side effect of survivors frequently running tapes and turning off her TVs which reduces her mobility.
- Remove the 10seconds cool-down on teleports that create the dreaded double cool-down on her power.
- Revert the changes to how tapes work. Tapes should become cursed tapes again and no longer act as a shield to protect survivors. They should get ticking condemn like they used to and should shy away from touching her TVs expect in situations where they need to deny her power or remove condemn. Tapes should not block any form of condemn build up.
- Condemn should be gained how it used to be by being within a certain radius of a TV when Onryo teleports to it.
These are important quality of life changes that I believe will make her a more balanced and well rounded killer.
- Condemn should get some sort of buff such as either 1.5-2 stacks when she emerges from a TV within 16 meters or 1 stack when within 20-24 meters.
- Keep Ring Drawing nerf to reduce unfun slugging builds.
- Fully restore old Reiko's Watch add-on. Or leave the add-on the same while taking the previously nerfed portion and making it basekit.
- Keep the shorter TV cool-downs so her teleport power doesn't feel weak when not running Iri-tape. Added benefit of making her less add-on reliant in higher MMRs.
- Reinstate the old Iri-tape add-on but make part of it basekit. Nerf the rest of the add-on by having it reduce condemn build up upon Projection as compensation for having strong map presence by having TVs pretty much always on.
Perhaps controversial changes I would like to see.
- Change the Iri-Remote Control add-on so that survivors who are fully condemned become exposed until they remove condemn. If not restoring the old Iri-tape then use Iri-tape for this effect and keep the current reworked effect on the Iri-Remote Conrol add-on.
- Distorted Photo or some other add-on which removes her lullaby while demanifested.
- Increase the ranges of Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth add-ons to 12 meters or make them active regardless of whether a TV is turned on or not.
- Ideally make half of the fully restored Reiko's Watch basekit and leave the other half within the add-on as a QoL change.
TLDR:
These changes should result in making a variety of builds viable on her again and not make her so add-on reliant. The changes will encourage more fun and engaging gameplay for both sides as well. This is largely due to the interaction between survivor and killer being centered around her teleporting to TVs near survivors again compared to her current rework where she can practically teleport spam and ignore survivors until one of them is fully condemned.
People who enjoy her map mobility can play her as a mobility killer with Iri-tape even if sacrificing some condemn build up.
People who enjoy condemn builds can still run them but the changes will make players have to work for it again and will feel a lot more rewarding. Slugging synergy is gone with the Ring Drawing nerf but the proximity buffs to condemn should make up for it and make condemn still a viable strategy, while not making it toxic and unhealthy for the game.
People who enjoy her stealth aspects or more standard builds will be able to do so with a fully restored Reiko's Watch and ways to improve her stealth with add-ons or basekit changes. They will also have better mobility than Onryo pre-rework without Iri-tape due to the reduced TV cool-downs providing a better QoL when playing her compared to before.
-
@VomitMommy said:
Internet explorer, or you didn't play before her rework?
Her current version is still pretty awful and has a lot of problems imo. She just can't camp down a 3gen as easily anymore. I personally wish they kept her old kit but nerfed drones placed within the area of a gen. BHVR loves to completely rework killers though rather than do simple fixes to address their issues, like they did with Onryo for example.
-
@Dumbtecher said:
I'm actually the opposite. I want them to make it a bit more strict so that I can face better survivors more consistently as well as get better randoms when I'm playing survivor with my duo. I mainly play nemesis and I'd say he's a mid tier killer. Mainly because he usually needs 3 hits before getting a down. All I run is shadowborn and enduring as perks and marvins blood with ne-A parasite. Any slowdowns and my games become too easy and boring. I don't even tunnel unless they bring very survivor sided maps or I can tell they came to win at all costs, like bringing syringes, styptics, etc.
I guess it's different for every player, but it's extremely boring facing survivors I'm much better than. It's much more satisfying beating players that I can actually compliment while in chase.
Yeah I'm with you. I hate it when I get matched with survivors that don't challenge me. Nothing is more boring than a game that is pretty much over the moment it starts because of a skill difference.
-
"I think that survivor should have a limit time for insert the vhs tape into tv and if they don't do it in the time - they must get at least one stack."
This is just the old tape mechanics but worse. In my opinion BHVR should reverse the changes to how tapes work as well as the global condemn. It was a lot more interesting when survivors holding tapes were slowly getting curse by it and gaining condemn overtime. It also created some interesting strategy and counterplay for both sides. I would suggest a buff though that if a survivor is fully condemned and has a tape in their hand, then they are exposed and can't just unload a tape in Onryo's face. It would result in survivors needing to be more proactive about tapes and thus engage which the mechanic even more which everyone seems to love.
Also before anyone says that the old way tapes worked left no interaction with her power:
1- teleporting nearby and getting stacks was a part of her power.
2- You could always take a tape to deny her quickly teleporting to a almost finished gen or unhook.
3- Against a good Onryo you would have to eventually do a tape run or risk getting condemned
4- It was not any different than Plagues fountains; I never hear any survivors saying Plague isn't fun to go against because they have no reason to interact with her fountains. Her old tape mechanics were risk reward and played out just fine.
5- Right now her tapes are just, take a tape and hold it till you get hit, repeat and eventually drop off if condemn is a threat. Her old tape mechanics where they did not get broken actually created some interesting gameplay compared to her current tape mechanics that are just boring and simplistic.
-
I feel you OP. Your post reminds me of many of us Onryo mains months ago when they rolled out her rework and how we felt it made her a lot less fun to play. Between Trickers and Onryo's reworks. I hope BHVR will look at how they affect the people who enjoy and main them and avoid complete gameplay changing reworks to their power in the future.
Its okay to have niche killers that only a small amount of people take the time to learn and do well with. A lot of people say Singularity is a bad killer but for those of us that can play him well, he is actually an incredibly strong killer. Killers like this do not need reworks in my opinion just because a portion of the player base doesn't want to take the time to get good with them or just doesn't know how to take advantage of their strengths. I would be very sad if they simplified Singularity in a rework because of people complaining about their power.
Old Trickster could be a pain for many because of the recoil on his power, especially on console, but that was just part of the skill of playing him. I agree with OP that the rework did remove a lot of the fun and interesting nuances to his power. Simply making it easier to land hits with no recoil and increasing the amount of necessary hits just makes it take longer to down. However importantly it removes some of the rewarding skill of landing hits, as it removes some of the skill of playing them and managing the recoil mechanic. Changes to mechanics like this are what disappoint me most about the direction BHVR has been taking the game recently.
TLDR: A killer may be difficult to use or less popular but the people who do love them and perform well at them don't want the gameplay they enjoy to suddenly go away. It would be nice if they could try to balance or improve such killers without making the killer feel like a different killer by changing core mechanics.