Skitten56
Skitten56
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Pain Res is strong but fine overall. However, it should only really work as long as all 4 survivors are alive. It should reward spreading hooks, not tunneling 1 survivors out and then making the game miserable for the last 3. I would even be okay with a buff to it as long as it deactivated when a survivors is out of the game.
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@CammyChameleon said:
After doing even more testing, I have come to this conclusion. If we are going to Keep TV auras and 1s tape insertion, the ability to turn off additional TVs needs to be removed, because being able to turn of 5 TVs with one run is dumb. Also don't turn of the TV you put the tape into (Target TV). I get taking it out, but putting it in doesn't make much sense for a 70 second cooldown.
If all of this isn't happening then I think the Survivors turning off the TVs need to be shorter, because they can just do the gen in that 70 second period next to them, and we have no way to apply any slowdown to them/ condemn stacks. Just grab the tape, and then no mobility, no condemn, (basically her whole power is gone).
If we are going to Keep TV auras and 1s tape insertion, the ability to turn off additional TVs needs to be removed
Completely agree. All 3 of these things cannot stay together. They just make her counterplay to strong and easy for survivors compared to how much harder it is to build condemn now. Survivors can just deny mobility, deny condemn, and have wall-hack info on you teleporting around them. Even if they do have condemn, they can remove it in your face mid-chase easily. Something has to change.
I've said it a bunch here but the best solution is to just hide the white TV auras from survivors carrying a tape; this would make it so survivors can easily find and turn off the first TV, without giving all the extra TV info to experienced survivors who can flawlessly do the counterplay. Such an obvious solution that helps her against strong swf doing the easy counterplay, without punishing new players and soloq.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645717#Comment_3645717
She's actually pretty good now.
The only thing I would add is the 2 second insertion. Nothing more.
I would be 100% fine with the 1s tape inserts if BHVR did anything to address the TV auras. Simply just making it so survivors can't see the TV auras in chase or when holding a tape would be enough for me. Without a change like this, good survivors can have so much info and control over your power.
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They 100% should add the firecrackers and fireworks toolboxes into the bloodweb. They denied us the event but at least give us the fun items. I loved using the toolboxes and making all the fireworks pop. Saved up so much BP just for this one event and they don't have it. Its a major downer.
I seriously hope BHVR will consider to have these items in an event in the near future.
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@Astel said:
It is good but would be better if it can be increased to 120
The increased FOV also increasing the possible blinding angle is ridiculous. Nobody should be punished for using option for accessibility. The blind angle should be fixed value.
Nobody should be punished for using option for accessibility. The blind angle should be fixed value.
If an FOV slider like this was in the game since release and it affected the blind angle like it does now, I can guarantee no one would be complaining about it. They would just select the mode they are comfortable with and accept the rewards and downsides for using whichever value they select.
As @Felgoose said, if a feature gives players an advantage just for clicking a button in a menu, it is perfectly reasonable to have some minor downsides to balance it.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
TV auras are the #1 BIGGEST issue with this new iteration.
I thought on paper that overall Onryo 3.0 is superior to Onryo 1.0 in every way, EXCEPT, after I played many games, I realized that these TV auras are far too powerful, allowing survivors to counter Sadako's power too easily. It has already been pointed out how survivors can simply turn off TVs near generators, denying Sadako of her power. Spending a few seconds running up to a TV, and one second to turn it off is far too easy. Next, after you're done slamming out a gen that Sadako can no longer teleport to, you can just run across the map, turning off TVs as you go, return your tape to its target TV, and then start working on the generator near that. It's very problematic because her power is too easy to disable, it's too easy to relieve condemn, she has quite a poor stealth ability despite being a "stealth killer" (more on that) and is just a M1 killer in chase.
I have played and seen many games recently where within the first minute of the match, Sadako teleports to one TV, chases one survivor, then three more TVs are shut off in quick succession. That's 4/7 TVs shutoff at the beginning of the match, and there's simply no way to quickly go over there to disrupt the survivors who shut off those TVs. Can't stop them from working on gens. Can't inflict any condemned on them. Your only reasonable options are to continue trying to chase one guy with no chase power, or drop that chase. Guaranteed they'll just run up to another TV, shut it off, and start working on the generator near that as well.
It's also been pointed out that survivors seeing the auras of TVs is also detrimental because this means they also see their auras when they shut off. That means instant verification of if she has teleported to you (using VCR addon or not!) and survivors can also easily tell when you try to teleport ahead of them. They can simply turn around, and you've lost even more distance.
A big part of what made Sadako fun was the ability to teleport to survivors mid-chase.
Here are changes I would suggest for potentially the most fun and balanced Sadako:
- NEVER show TV auras by default. Survivors may briefly see the aura of a TV near them when they get a stack of condemned from it.
- Only reveal the aura of their target TV briefly when they first pick up their tape, and when within 16m of it.
- Powered TVs put heavier static on the survivor's screen when they are at risk of receiving condemned stacks. They also emit audio cues to help survivors find them.
- It takes three seconds to get a tape from a TV and shut it off. Realistically, let's say it takes some time to make a copy.
- If you already have a tape, it also takes three seconds to shut off another TV, and you get ANOTHER tape.
- Each extra video tape you acquire grants you an additional stack of condemn.
- It only takes one second to return a tape to your target TV. However, that's a one-second animation PER TAPE you have picked up.
- You relieve three stacks of condemn once ALL your tapes have been inserted into the target TV.
- While near a powered TV or holding a cursed tape, you hear and are affected by Sadako's lullaby.
TLDR what should this accomplish? TVs are harder for survivors to find, but not frustratingly difficult (minus multistory shenanigans). Disrupting Sadako's power takes a bit more time investment, but far better to attempt this before you are in trouble, not after she's found you. You can still quickly return tapes, but if you have been cocky and shut off more TVs than necessary, you might pay for it. Holding onto a tape or leaving a nearby TV powered has additional risks, as she might be able to sneak up to you demanifested.
TV auras are 100% the biggest issue with her right now. It baffles me that BHVR has not taken an easy compromise decision to just hide TV auras when survivors are carrying a tape (aside from their drop-off TV). This would easily fix most the issues with TV auras while still allowing survivors to be able to find their first TV to grab a tape and avoid condemn.
The TV auras make condemn so weak against good survivors and also allows these survivors to easily find and disable her TVs which limits her mobility. There simply must be some sort of restriction because right now the auras give way too much info to survivors.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Boon: Illumination could do with a lingering effect once you leave the Boon's radius, and the bonus action speed should be increased to like 20%.
Deadline should provide a bonus to Great Skill Checks while active.
Champion of Light is pretty good.
The bonus action speed should be either increased, not have the requirement of the boon being active, or have it work if any boon is active. It is just too restrictive at the moment.
Personally I would love it if they changed it to be something like this, "When you have a lit Boon Totem, you bless Totems 60% faster".
This change would actually create some interesting gameplay by allowing a survivor to spend time to boon a totem in a safe area and then quickly being able to move it by booning in a more dangerous hot spot location. Its the only way I see the perks secondary effect being useful with a numbers buff. Without something like this is it basically never the right call to move your boon totem if it is already active and not snuffed by the killer.
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I love the gamemodes concept and I have had some fun matches with it as killer as well as survivor. Unfortunately for survivor right now many killers are just camping, tunneling, and slugging. Survivors with no perks or info do not have the tools to effectively counter this. This makes the gamemode rather painful as a survivor.
It would be very good if BHVR implemented some basic countermeasures. Maybe basekit unbreakable for the gamemode, and basekit OTR would be very good. Also if the killer is within the anti-camp radius, they should have their Terror Radius.
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Maps work just fine. I got one and was able to use it to break a 3 gen. Shame I got slugged and bled out for it though since it was the last gen and the killer had an ego I guess.
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It would be a lot more fun if killers were not slugging every single game. I feel like this mode really needs basekit unbreakable. Killers in general seem to be camping and slugging a lot more in this mode. Maybe it is because they struggle to find survivors?
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@OrangeBear said:
What's up with the sound when onryo damages a generator? It's a bit much.
I love the new sound for it. Her sound design has always been amazing and this is just another aspect of it. I would be sad if they removed it.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643129#Comment_3643129
Rickets pinwheel should at least hide her lullaby and have a bigger range. It‘s a bit a stupid concept.
In my opinion the iri tape is just a failed concept. As base kit no tv cooldowns cool, but it’s just a too big nerf to her. It would be great as a grey addon or anything besides iri as one of those bloodpoint addons.
I think hiding the tv auras when holding a tape won‘t solve anything, but who knows.
I'd rather them use the Clump of Hair add-on for any lullaby changing effects. Its already a bad add-on but it has a stealth focus so it would make sense.
I have to disagree with you about Ir-tape being a failed concept. I think it is a great concept, it could just use some minor tweaks.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643773#Comment_3643773
Can you expand on the 5v5 game mode you were talking about? I don't really understand how that would work. So you'd have two matches occurring at the same time and each match would be fighting to finish first, get more points, hooks, etc.? Would they be on the same map or just two separate games?
It was a gamemode floated in BHVR's last survey. IIRC the gist of it was that each team would have 4 survivors and 1 killer. Each team would be fighting to have the most generator progress while the other teams killer tries they best to disrupt them. I assume winning meant having them most gen completion before the match time ran out.
I loved this concept and I think it would create interesting gameplay while still being easy to balance within the framework of dbd's current system.
I also loved VIP where the game is over if the obsession dies and the rest of the survivors are tasked with trying to protect them as long as possible.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643729#Comment_3643729
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643747#Comment_3643747
It could be the most unbalanced stuff ever, but I want to play it.
I can respect that. I mean for your sake, if it didn't use up too many of BHVRs resources for other gamemodes I have no problem with them having it as an occasional game mode. I just wouldn't want them to pick 2v8 over other gamemodes if we can only have a few.
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@GeneralV said:
Patiently waiting for 2v8.
Personally I'm completely against 2v8. It'll likely be a nightmare to balance and result in the least fun chases and gameplay out of all the suggestions I've seen.
5v5 would be much more easy to balance since its just 2 games of what we currently have playing out at the same time. It would be a much more interesting and fun concept in my opinion to see 2 teams each with 4 survivors and a killer performing a tug of war against each other; this compared to seeing 2 killers completely destroy a survivor in chase while the rest play gen simulator.
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@aprilghost_yt said:
I wanna humbly offer my own take on these new changes. OBVIOUSLY these will have to be experimented with. It's much easier for me personally to theorycraft about the balance of condemned because that stuff really comes down to time vs gen progress in many cases. Chase buffs are harder to visualize...
HOWEVER, in my mind, this is a very very healthy change and a GREAT solution. This is even better than PTB in my mind!
Regards to hook lock-in: Locking in 3 stacks isn't perfect, I would have liked 4 or no limit too, but I suspect we might never win that argument. It means getting survivors to accept that she's a "buy-one-get-one" hook killer, and while I believe that's actually balanced and we Sadako mains understand that it could be balanced... I can't blame non-onryo mains for hating that idea lol. I also believe that 3 as a limit is a MUCH easier pill to swallow thanks to the chase buffs, which will actually help us get hooks and may even make 3-hooking survivors viable at a higher level of play, in some situations.
For the tape interaction, I am a fan of that being at 1 second. When it was 2, STBFL or sloppy butcher became an obligation, because why wouldn't you block someone fully from cleansing in your face? I hate being funneled into a certain build or playstyle, so removing it as a possibility kinda chilled me out in a way. The idea, it seems, is to prevent cleansing by hooking tape carriers and achieving lock in at least once, and now we have a chase power that can actually help us get hooks...
And this is where we get to the part where I'm not 100% confident in my theory, but 4m/s manifest speed SOUNDS nutty to me on paper. I've heard people call it minor, but in my mind that's actually a really really good buff I never expected. We now lose zero distance while manifesting. Combined with the increased demanifest invis and the immunity to stuns while demanifested, the Sadako 'manifest mind games' just became 'manifest free hits'. Especially paired with telephone or reiko's watch- we are basically a stun-immune SPIRIT at short range.
This chase buff changes EVERYTHING in my mind. Iri tape becomes way more viable because we actually have map pressure without condemned. Lock-in at 3 becomes (well, maybe not STRONG but acceptable) because it becomes the groundwork for EITHER 2 more hooks or 4 more stacks of condemned as the situation demands.
Lastly I agree there are still some add-ons I'd love to see reworked or improved at some point, but this is the best looking basekit I've ever seen for her and I'm just really happy about it!
Very well thought out and expressed. I agree with you over most of this though I still would prefer 2s insert times, or at least 1.5 as a compromise.
The chase buffs are very welcome and I do agree it is an acceptable trade off for them to not give us 4 stacks of condemn lock. The Telephone add-on is one many thought was a bit too weak to justify using but with the Manifestation buff, this add-on got an indirect buff as you alluded to, so now it is in a good spot. As you said, this is the best look basekit version we've probably ever seen of her, certainly the best we've seen recently.
Iri tape becomes way more viable because we actually have map pressure without condemned.
I would like to agree with you here however I still need to voice my concern in the hope that BHVR will notice and address the one glaring issue with this add-on. It is simply far to easy for a single survivor to go from TV to TV, turning them all off for a long 84 seconds. This allows survivors to essentially completely shutdown her power without and risk in return. It turns what should be a fun mobility add-on into a potential liability as using the add-on removes all condemn risk and if survivors abuse this, they also leave you with significant;y limited mobility.
I would love to see BHVR modify this add-on to either hide TV auras when holding a tape (other than their drop-off TV), or make it so when using this add-on survivors carrying a tape cannot interact with TVs other than their drop-off TV. This would still allow for counterplay with the add-on from the survivor side while not enabling them to completely shutdown her power.
Lastly I agree there are still some add-ons I'd love to see reworked or improved at some point
Absolutely. I hope they have plans to address some of them. In my opinion Rickety Pinwheel, Sea-Soaked Cloth and VCR require the most urgency.
Overall I am please and its a step in the right direction with Onryo. I think we all realize and know condemn is a hard mechanic for BHVR to balance and I appreciate the time and effort they seem to be putting in to try and make this right, even if they are taking it safe by slowly making small adjustments.
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I like the Manifest and Projection buffs. I think these will increase her chase power a bit and provide a nice QoL increase to those playing her.
The condemn cooldown being removed is good if they don't plan to address her counterplay issues (which seems to be the case sadly). If BHVR did address these issues such as the TV auras and the 1s tape insert speeds, I would be okay with them keeping the cooldown.
Condemn Lock
I personally think they needed to make condemn lock in at 4 stacks to reward good condemn play. Especially given how much easier it is to remove and counter in this version.
If they don't make it 4 stacks I fear many Onryo players will just slug since hooking may not be worth it. At 3 stacks Onryo basically has to play a 3 hooks game while also spending extra time to build condemn, this could make condemn worse than traditional hooking for some and result in it just being a slowdown mechanic. Why should an Onryo player who wants to focus on condemn hook if hooking doesn't result in any advantages?
At 4 stacks however, there is an incentive to hook over slugging. A Onryo can lock in enough stacks to make the effort to build condemn and the effort to spend time picking up a survivor and hooking them worth it. This is critical if BHVR wants to avoid Onryo players slugging.
If they address the issues with her strong counterplay like TV auras and tape insert speeds, 3 stacks is perfectly fine, but without these changes though it should really be at 4 stacks.
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It appears the coming changes will be the following:
- Condemn teleport cooldown will be removed
- Increased the number of condemn stacks that can be locked to 3 (was 2)
- Increased Projection movement speed duration to 2 seconds (was 1.5)
- Increased movement speed while Manifesting to 4 m/s (was 3.68)
I like the Manifest and Projection buffs. I think these will increase her chase power a bit and provide a nice QoL increase to those playing her. The condemn cooldown being removed is good if they don't plan to address her counterplay issues (which seems to be the case sadly). If BHVR did address these issues such as the TV auras and the 1s tape insert speeds, I would be okay with them keeping the cooldown.
Condemn Lock
I personally think they needed to make condemn lock in at 4 stacks to reward good condemn play. Especially given how much easier it is to remove and counter in this version.
If they don't make it 4 stacks I fear many Onryo players will just slug since hooking may not be worth it. At 3 stacks Onryo basically has to play a 3 hooks game while also spending extra time to build condemn, this could make condemn worse than traditional hooking for some and result in it just being a slowdown mechanic. Why should an Onryo player who wants to focus on condemn hook if hooking doesn't result in any advantages?
At 4 stacks however, there is an incentive to hook over slugging. A Onryo can lock in enough stacks to make the effort to build condemn and the effort to spend time picking up a survivor and hooking them worth it. This is critical if BHVR wants to avoid Onryo players slugging.
If they address the issues with her strong counterplay like TV auras and tape insert speeds, 3 stacks is perfectly fine, but without these changes though it should really be 4.
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@jonifire said:
Could you make reikos watch 50% again please and make her time she is visible shorter or increase the frequency she is invisible.
Maybe even make her longer invisible like 1,5s and then leave reikos watch with 25%.
My understanding is that Reiko's Watch is like the original Reiko's Watch again. Rather than 50%, they made the add-on 25% and then took the other 25% and made it basekit. So if anything the add-on is better since we got an important basekit effect. Someone can correct me if I am wrong though.
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@aprilghost_yt said:
@radiantHero23 @Skitten56 @MechWarrior3
(and everyone here lol)
I don't know if any of you saw Peanits' comment on the discord. I'm sure they'll announce it here soon as well. But I think many of us will be rejoicing :)
I saw it and am very excited for these additional changes. I do hope they have more unannounced changes though. There are a few add-ons that absolutely need to be looked at. Particularly Rickety Pinwheel, Sea-Soaked Cloth, and VCR which have practically no purpose within the framework of this new rework.
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@jonifire said:
The problem with Rickety pinwheel is that oblivious is useless on her, they should completely rework it or make the range bigger and make that the lullaby isn‘t shown.
Sea soaked cloth is actually useful, but the range should be increased.
Iri tape: Cool idea, yes, but old iri tape did everything what it does better, so please give it us back!
The Tv auras are in general a big issue like you and me already mentioned, it makes her already weak TVs in chases and approaches weak/useless.
I have to disagree with Rickety Pinwheel. Oblivious can be strong on her since the VTR gives her away when demanifested. Oblivious is actually stronger on her than other killers in my opinion, since survivors expect to have the VTR give you away when trying to sneak up on them. Therefore you can stay manifested and surprise them sometimes easier than if you tried to use her actual stealth.
I know I mentioned this on the other thread but I'll restate it here for anyone new. The original Iri-tape would be perfectly fine to add back into the game. However I don't expect BHVR to do this, so I am trying to provide constructive feedback on their current Iri-tape and how to make it useful and balanced as an add-on.
The TV auras are a big issue that BHVR must address. Even a compromise fix like hiding auras to survivors holding tapes would go a long way to solving most of the issues with her right now.
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I'd much rather have 5v5 mode, easier to balance since its basically 2 versions of the game happening at the same time. 2v8 mode just sounds like a unfun balancing nightmare that would die in a few weeks.
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All of these would be interesting and add new flavor to the standard game. They could even be incorporated into rotation like maps in order to not split the queue.
I personally would love to see some of their proposed gamemodes in the survey they had recently. The 5v5 mode seemed like a ton of fun and would be much easier to balance than a 2v8 mode. I also loved the idea of a gamemode where all survivors tried to stop the killer from hooking 1 survivor or they all lose.
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@aprilghost_yt said:
A final plea against the condemned cooldown!
Hey guys! Was just doing some thinking tonight and I realized something about this version of Sadako that I find very problematic. It's a bit 'mathy' so bear with me here. I'll try to lay this out as clearly as possible:
Survivor interactions currently turn TVs off for 70 seconds. This is 10 seconds more than her first version. Keep that in mind.
Gens take 90 charges at base. I'd guess the average gen time is around 90 seconds between the push and pull of perks, but who knows. I'll assume 90 seconds here for the sake of argument.
Sadako is now limited by a 10 second cooldown between condemned stacks. Actually, because Sadako is only allowed to start her teleport at 98% charge on the power meter, the cooldown between stacks is closer to 13 seconds. Condemned is applied after the crawl animation finishes and it takes between 2 and 3 seconds to complete that animation.
Tapes have few downsides now- we've established that. But holding a tape does have one critical downside: turning off non-target TVs will inflict a stack of condemned. This can and should be the 'passive' condemned gained from holding a tape. To fully complete a gen in 90 seconds, you'd have to turn off a TV twice in that timespan- only eating one stack in the process. A fine trade!
On the PTB, if survivors did not turn off the TV twice, once the TV by their gen powered up again, they could gain as many as 4 full stacks before finishing their gen in the last 20 seconds. This is the punishment for ignoring the power of the killer and the counter. This is assuming the killer has 3 other TVs up, and somehow is able to teleport to EVERY TV other than theirs before finishing them off. This is an extreme outlier situation, and I'd say a rather skilled play from the killer if they somehow gathered that information and used it. It would also be a HUGE misplay from the survivor who ignored their kill meter slowly rising over the course of 20 seconds.
Currently, in live, in that last 20 seconds, if a survivor completes their gen and ignores the TV by their gen, they are only at risk of gaining ONE more stack. (they can't even inflict condemned twice in 20 seconds).
It's the exact same as turning the TV off. It's arbitrary. There's no risk of leaving that TV on after turning it off once.
This fact SEVERELY diminishes interaction between survivor and killer power.
In fact, (and if my math is wrong here idk sue me), you could carry one tape and complete 3 full gens while only 'passively' gaining 5 stacks in the process. HUUUUUGE nerf from Sadako 1, and combined with the decreased tape interaction time and hook lock-in nerf...
Condemned is dead in the water if survivors realize this.
And that leaves Sadako dead in the well- her chase power is minimal, that leaves her map pressure fairly inconsequential...
This 10 second condemned cooldown is a disaster for the character. PLEASE revert this, and please consider raising the curse lock-in with a hook to 3 or 4 stacks (or remove it altogether)
Completely agree with you and hope BHVR will address this.
This is also why I've been strongly advocating that when survivors are holding a VHS tape, they should not be able to see TV auras other than their assigned tape drop off TV . This would make them have more pressure to do the tape rather than sit on it; it would also make it harder for a survivor to systematically turn off all the TVs to deny condemn and mobility. The requirement of it only being once they hold a tape will also still allow newer players and players in general find that first TV with a aura to stop condemn and help them figure out the counter. Its a good compromise solution I feel.
Condemned is dead in the water if survivors realize this.
The worst part is that a lot of the survivors I question in the post game chat are either unaware of the basics of her new power and some not even realizing that she was changed. In a couple of weeks to a month once many survivors start to learn how her new power actually works, this issue will get much worse.
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It should either be removed from showing up on the Visual Terror Radius (VTR) or BHVR should find a way to make the VTR only show up when the lullaby actually makes noise.
Right now many survivors run the VTR to get an advantage in the game since it gives them extra info, and no where is this most noticeable than when playing against Sadako/Onryo.
As @jonifire mentioned, many survivors did not even know she had a lullaby until the VTR update, simply due to how quiet and subtle her lullaby can be. The VTR feature directly hurts more than any other killer and makes her stealth aspects weaker.
BHVR needs to either fix this issue within the VTR by making the VTR reflect how subtle her lullaby is, or change and add-on to modify her lullaby.
The Clump of Hair add-on which is currently a useless add-on but geared towards stealth gameplay would be a great choice. By making this add-on have her Terror Radius be either map-wide or removed, it would give Onryo players a way to counter survivors using the accessibility feature for an advantage which hurts her.
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@jayoshi said:
I know people have mentioned it here before, but this new "regressing the gen 8 times blocks it" should only be activated once there are 3 gens left. It shouldn't be activated during normal game play. This would solve the 3 gen holding the game hostage problem but wouldn't feel like you're being punished as killer doing your normal objective of making sure gens are not getting done as they are still spread out on the map.
If it is determined that gens are getting blocked just by engaging in general gameplay, then it is reasonable that it should only be active during the last 3 gens. However as a trade off for this, it is also very reasonable that they re-add gen tapping to the game.
These 2 features were clearly designed to work together. The removal of gen tapping making it harder for them to stop regression in your face, leading to additional gen regression events when the killer has to kick it later. It exists to make it fair for killers so survivors can't abuse the 8 event limit. However if this feature only applies during the last 3 gens, then gen tapping should come back. I think between 8 or 12 regression events on the last 3 gens even if survivors can gen tap is reasonable.
To not make both of these changes at the same time would be shifting the balance around more than the devs are intending.
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My only issues with Billy is how short their recover for missing their saw is, even when not using add-ons though the add-ons make this a lot worse. The other issue is how there seems to be basically nothing you can do to get a safe unhook against them if they are face camping, especially in the endgame. Feels kind of bad to just let a survivor die because there is nothing you can do. Might be controversial but I kind of wish overheat mechanics were a thing when near a hooked survivor.
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@jonifire said:
I want to add that your locker should be highlighted with an aura, when head on is active, so that you could help your teammates with a stun.
Honestly this would be such a great idea for BHVR to implement. Much more valuable than extra stun duration imo. Would make the perk a lot easier to use altruistically in soloq.
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I feel like it would still be a functional nerf. The killers could chase survivors away and then kick it with pop or something once it wears off due to the shorter time.
I feel like it is okay in its current form when it can block killers regression perks or kicking from hitting the gen. If I was going to give it a buff, I would make it so the survivor who actives it can interact with the gen to remove the blockage at will.
If BHVR wants to use something similar to your idea, I think the best way to change it would be to make it so the perk blocks all or partial damage from the next regression event for 30/40/50 seconds, but critically does not block the gen.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641318#Comment_3641318
I agree with you and all this. I think we’ve been on the same page at the same book since day one my friend.
The question is will the devs bother to read any of this and address her issues. I want to be optimistic but their history has left me with very little hope.
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My friend recently got the game and the amount of afk killers at their low MMR has been taking the experience away from them. Bad enough to the point I'm considering doing swf with them even if it takes them into higher MMRs just so they can play and enjoy the game.
It would be good if BHVR could address this as it would definitely help retain new players.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641223#Comment_3641223
I don’t believe she needs to be more lethal on Chase, it’s only her power that needs to be stronger. If they buffer and chase, then they have to weaken her power, besides not every killer has to be excellent at Chase.
I personally enjoy using her power strategically, I definitely don’t want her converted more than what she already has been, this has already been a disaster. :)
I agree with you on the lack of lethality in chase. Onryo not having a good chase power was the trade off from having good map mobility from her TVs and some slowdown from condemn pressure.
The issue with this version is that it is way too easy for good survivors to deny her mobility while also not putting themselves at condemn risk. This can leave her with no chase power, limited mobility, and little condemn pressure; this can render her very weak as a killer. This is all because of how easy and thoughtless her counterplay is, as well as how her TVs are tied to condemn and mobility.
The Iri-tape add-on was a great step in the right direction as it would allow Onryo players to decouple condemn from mobility and ideally have solid mobility as a result. However in practice is it easy for survivors to just go around and deny your power at no risk due to the complete lack of condemn threat. When running this add-on it is critical that BHVR has additional conditions which reduce the survivors ability to interact with TVs.
TLDR: Weak chase is perfectly fine if she still has her macro powers of mobility and condemn pressure, but this update leaves her lacking in all three categories.
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The soloq experiece for me right now has been watching a teammate get tunneled out at 4 gens left and then have to deal with the killer still having 3 Pain Res uses left with only 3 survivors remaining. Pretty much an unwinnable situation for soloq.
I don't mind Pain Res being strong, I could even tolerate it being strong in soloq, IF it doesn't work when the killer just tunnels someone out early. It is just too strong of a regression perk to synergize so well with tunneling.
Perks like Grim Embrace and Pain Res should be strong since they encourage hook spreading, but lets actually have killers using these strong perks be forced to hook spread rather than just tunneling 1 survivors and then reaping all the benefits.
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I made a comment about Boon Illumination and realized it would be better suited here. Boon: Illumination absolutely needs some sort of buff to justify bringing it over any other boon perk. Right now its effects are essentially useless. There are non-boon perks that are better for gen revealing and boon perks that are much more useful. I propose BHVR change it with one of the following solutions:
- When any boon is active, gain a 10% faster increase to cleansing and blessing totems.
- When you have a lit Boon Totem, you cleanse or bless Totems 20% faster.
- When you have a lit Boon Totem, you bless Totems 60% faster.
- You cleanse or bless Totems 10% faster.
#1: This allows the boon to have some synergy in team use. A team that wants to have multiple people running boons might see some value out of it. Still weak but could be interesting.
#2: Makes it somewhat more useful to set up a Boon and move it around. It is already kind of pointless to move your boon around when it is already active, especially given the time it takes to reset it; it is basically throwing the match. By increasing the speeds when the boon is active, it helps offset this extra time waste and could have some niche uses in a totem breaking build.
#3 This change is just the second option but making it so it only applies to blessing. With such an increased blessing speed, it might actually be useful to bless a totem in a safe area and then move it to a more high risk area. I think this could promote some more interesting boon gameplay and strategies. Personally my favorite option.
#4 just removes the requirement to have a boon totem up first. As stated in option 2, it is usually pointless to bless another totem when you already have one up due to how much time it takes. This change might make the perk useful in general.
I personally would love to see them buff it with option 3 or 4. Those changes would make the boon somewhat useful and tactical even if still somewhat niche. 3 is the more interesting and fun change of the bunch while 4 would be the most useful and reasonable buff.
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@mikewelk said:
I was so underwhelmed by it. Would prefer someone to run Circle of Healing instead and that's saying something.
It really is. Experienced players can usually work out all the gens spawns so the only useful aspect of the perk is the extra cleansing and blessing speeds. But this is basically useless as it requires you to have your boon up first. It would be much better if they went with one of the following additional options:
- When any boon is active, gain a 10% faster increase to cleansing and blessing totems.
- When you have a lit Boon Totem, you cleanse or bless Totems 20% faster.
- When you have a lit Boon Totem, you bless Totems 60% faster.
- You cleanse or bless Totems 10% faster.
With #1 it can have some synergy in team use. A team that wants to have multiple people running boons might see some value out of it.
#2 makes it somewhat more useful to have a Boon up and move it around. It is already kind of pointless to move your boon around when it is already active, especially given the time it takes to reset it, it is basically throwing the match. By increasing the speeds
#3 is just the second option but making it so it only applies to blessing. With such an increased blessing speed, it might actually be useful to bless a totem in a safe area and then move it to a more high risk area.
#4 just removes the requirement to have a boon totem up first. As stated in option 2, it is usually pointless to bless another totem when you already have one up due to how much time it takes. This change might make the perk useful.
I personally would love to see them buff it with option 3 or 4. Those changes would make the boon somewhat useful and tactical even if still somewhat niche.
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They should at least just throw in last years Lunar event to give us something. It doesn't have to be new but it is the year of the Dragon. It is a complete waste to not have the game run such a popular event during such an iconic year. BHVR please reconsider your decision on this.
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I'm glad you brought this up and hopefully made BHVR aware of this so they can make a decision on it. Personally to me its just a fashion aesthetic. We shouldn't let disgusting groups like that dictate things like the color of laces. I had never even heard of this sort of coding until I saw your post.
That being said, if BHVR wants to play it safe and change the color to black or something, I would be okay with it as it is their choice and I can understand the desire to play it safe when it comes to such disgusting ideologies.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639619#Comment_3639619
I agree with you a bit, that it could be too much, but on the other side I think it’s needed. There is no downside to tapes and that was a key element of her power always. Also the passive condemned does only something if the survivors hold the tapes for too long, which would be fine. Tapes aren’t supposed to be safe.
I don‘t know whether you read how I would have reworked her, but they could also give her a very weak global condemned and strong condemned at the tvs you teleport to. I personally loved her first version and this version has the same problems as her second version.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639706#Comment_3639706
I prefer her first version over all versions we get. One big problem of the global condemned versions is that survivors will always turn of her TVs. I really enjoyed the teleport part of her power and that you could go for condemned in her first version, but it wasn‘t forced like in the past two versions, where survivors turn off all her TVs to counter her.
One big problem of the global condemned versions is that survivors will always turn of her TVs. I really enjoyed the teleport part of her power and that you could go for condemned in her first version, but it wasn‘t forced like in the past two versions, where survivors turn off all her TVs to counter her.
Yes this is a big issue in any version of her where the survivors are encouraged to engage to grab tapes as part of her counterplay. When this is the case, survivors will grab tapes to avoid condemn, while also denying her mobility in the process. Any system with global condemn (2.0 and 3.0) forces these changes though because survivors have to address condemn aggressively and turn off TVs.
As such, I much prefer it when the condemn threat comes from only 1 TV upon Projection with a higher threat to carrying a tape like in her release version. It was harder to build up but her mobility was not punished nearly as badly. Her release version was fine perfectly balanced in this aspect; to avoid condemn survivors would have to run away from TVs if she teleported in chase. If their condemn got too high by constantly working gens in high traffic areas she teleported to, then they would have to be smart and do a tape run without getting caught. Grabbing a cursed tape (watching it) and then dropping it off (copying it) was a good counterplay mechanic and was very true to her lore. Survivors would be at the most risk of condemn when they touched her TVs.
This resulted in Sadako having a good balance of condemn pressure and mobility since her TVs would almost always be on by survivors where she needed them; this is in contrast to her reworks where TVs are almost always off where she needs them. In 1.0 if survivors really needed a TV off at a critical area to deny her power, such as an almost completed gen or to get a safe unhook, they could always take the TV tape first to deny her mobility and assume the new condemn risk that comes with it. Her release power in my opinion really was the best in terms of risk reward counterplay for her.
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@aerie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639320#Comment_3639320
punishing people with accessibility issues because "they're the minority" is such an awful and gross mentality. of course people use the new fov slider for the slight advantage but why do people with accessibility issues have to have a disadvantage just because people min max advantage on this game??? like i'm so tired of this mentality. i'm SO sick of it. you're lucky the moderation here is oversensitive because i'm trying so hard rn to be civil but i'm so grossed out you're filling my replies with this kind of stuff and i'm grossed out that you're even allowed to say it. people with accessibility issues getting told to just deal with this stuff because they're the minority is such a harmful approach and is why people are afraid to ask for more accessibility stuff, because of people like you shunning them for being in a minority
Sorry you feel this way. Again I am all for accessibility features being in the game, but it should be implemented properly.
An accessibility feature should not result in gameplay changes significant enough that the general playerbase overwhelmingly adopts it because it gives them advantages.
Accessibility features should try to reach parity with other players ideally. The VTR is almost perfectly implemented and I'm sure is a huge help to those with hearing issues. The issue with the VTR though is how it can be used by all players to get advantages over certain killers like Sadako/Onryo that would not exist otherwise. Parity with the VTR can be achieved by having a bit more of a slight delay on the visual effect appearing when a survivors enters a killers TR; this is fine and reasonable, as most general players would not notice or even hear the visual terror radius at this range. This makes the accessibility feature in line with the general player experience. For lullabys like Sadako's, there are lots of spaces of quiet or where its hard to hear, to the point that many players did not even realize she had a lullaby until BHVR added the VTR. With the VTR, it should be changed so that the lullaby notification fades in and out during these parts. Not because I want to punish people who need the feature, but because that is a change which brings the playerbase to the same level.
This isn't me hating on people with accessibility issues or wanting them not to be able to play the game unless they have a disadvantage, this is a desire for both players to be at the same level and to make it so that the general playerbase don't just start using a new feature as the new default because it is strong, resulting in a change of gameplay. If a killer is punished and made weaker by a majority of players using an accessibility feature that is a bit of a problem for the games balance and the devs should address it.
For the FOV, think about it like this. If the game always had an FOV slider since release, and that slider gave killers an advantage of getting that higher FOV with the downside of being slightly easier to blind, no one would be complaining about it at all.
It would simply be a feature of the game. Players wouldn't be here calling me gross for suggesting such a change, players would just turn the FOV up and accept the trade offs that come with it. Gameplay requires balance and its is okay for there to be trade-offs. This should not be controversial in the slightest.
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I see a lot of people suggesting that they add ticking condemn back to survivors holding a tape. However I think there is a problem with this. This is because BHVR needs to address the counterplay issues in her kit, as a priority but adding ticking condemn might tilt the scale towards the other side and lead to a Onryo where survivors can't effectively engage in counterplay. Right now the counterplay is way too forgive towards survivors and makes it easy for them to deny and punish Onryo without giving her the means to work around it. This must be addressed.
However if BHVR does address the issues regarding her counterplay, and then decides to add ticking condemn to survivors holding tapes, I feel like it is too much for survivors to have to deal with as it would put them more in a lose lose type situation. Survivors would be pushing for grabbing a tape to protect themselves but also punished if they don't grab a tape. This would be a problem. As long as there is a global condemn type system where Onryo can spread condemn on multiple points of the map by teleporting I think ticking condemn is too strong.
I do propose a compromise solution though. There has been talk about making Yoichi's Fishing Net add-on apply ticking condemn by making it look something like this:
Yoichi's Fishing Net:
- Projection no longer applies condemn. Tapes are no longer broken upon being hooked
- Survivors who take a VHS tape slowly gain condemn when not in chase. (22 sec per stack) This effect lasts until they drop their tape off at their assigned TV.
This change would provide a means for Onryo to work around survivors doing the counterplay of turning off TVs and denying her mobility. It would also discourage survivors from touching her TVs like in 1.0 to avoid a condemn threat as they would become cursed for grabbing a curse tape (lore accurate!).
The result would either be survivors let her have free control over her mobility or take the risk of getting caught with a tape and getting condemned.
It might need some tweaks but I think it would be a fun add-on to play with. I'd love to hear what you all think.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638401#Comment_3638401
Thing is, you can still tunnel at 5 gens with this, you get it once on the first hook and then just tunnel that person out. Then you have 3 more uses of it to help secure a victory in the 3v1 because those will all still be fresh hooks even though you just tunneled somebody.
I feel like the perk should be deactivated once a survivor dies, same with Pain Resonance.
Agree with you about Grim Embrace and Pain Res deactivating when a survivor is out of the game. Both of these perks create incentives for hook spreading, but they can still both be used by tunnelers. These perks should be strong if not stronger to reward hook spreading but BHVR also needs to make it so a killer who wants to tunnel can't abuse these strengths and make a 3v1 absolutely miserable.
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@Paternalpark said:
It's a boon. If coh is dead how will this be used?
By the time I've crossed a map I know where gens are. If it's indoors I'll use my brain. But a boon only helping on indoor maps is now rng dependant.
What if the boon is on one side of the map? You run there only to realize you must run back because you decided to use a boon instead of recall.
It should be reworked to increase boon radius and reduce the sound boons make. Should also make booning faster always.
It should be reworked to increase boon radius and reduce the sound boons make. Should also make booning faster always.
It should definitely have one of these as an additional effect. Boons are weak as it is, and this is by far the weakest boon.
At the very least the boons effect of increased blessing/cleansing speed should be either always active or active as long as any boon is on the map, not just your own.
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The issue is that the cooldown can be pretty short, and with add-ons there is practically no cooldown. A survivors should be able to get some distance if Billy misses with their power. In their current form this element of gameplay is lacking. Billy is in a great spot overall and certainty doesn't need heavy nerfs, but they do need some adjustments to make it so survivors can be rewarded for countering him properly.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639009#Comment_3639009
Stop with this incorrect timing crap. People did this same thing with Eruption too, to downplay the impact.
It's not 30 seconds, it's 30 seconds *per survivor*.
So you're already at 90 seconds with the first proc of the game, for the 3 survivors who weren't in chase... which is when people will first discover it's even in play.
And I'll also add that there's basically nothing to do in that window either. First hook usually means no one else is injured, and only one person has to go for rescue. So it's effectively guaranteed that two survivors are going to have to...
Just wait it out.
If your 'gameplay' is functionally the same as looking at a screenshot of a gen for 30 seconds, that's not gameplay. It's a ######### mechanic.
100% this. Its the old Eruption issue all over again, just slightly less bad since I guess survivors can open chests if they want while they wait. I don't know why BHVR thought this was acceptable. These 2 perks should absolutely not work together at all.
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@Selfpreservated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638122#Comment_3638122
Maybe preparing something big for aniversary
There better be if they remove one of the best events from the game. I'm going to deeply miss it and all the fireworks and firecrackers.
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This is awful. I was super looking forward to the Lunar New Year event. Its was one of my favorite events.
I hope BHVR will at least add the items into the bloodweb during it or something. The fireworks toolboxes and firecrackers were so fun to use.
Please do this BHVR, why remove a fun community event that gives fun items for players to enjoy?
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639320#Comment_3639320
Agreed. I'm just waiting for BHVr to finally add that downside for survivors. It's been months since they added it. You can see the terror radius and lullaby before you can actually hear it. That gives survivors using the visual tr a few seconds early warning which could very well mean the difference of a match win or loss. Those few seconds can mean the difference between getting to a safe loop or getting downed.
https://youtu.be/-j65wVBMqNs?si=H4F9lodAcZbcPstx
So as you said, accessibility giving a gameplay advantage is "completely fair that this comes with downsides" (your words). When are survivors getting this downside? What's unfair is when survivors get no downside gameplay advantages with accessibility, but killers have to pay a price to use accessibility options.
You are not going to see me complaining about this. The Visual Terror Radius is something most survivors run now because it can tell them the killer is coming on the edge of the TR even when they can't actually hear it. Some killer lullabys are very subtle but the VTR gives them away 100% of the time even if there is no audio playing. Terror Radius music starts off very quiet on the edges but the VTR lets a player know immediately that the killer is in range. This gives players a competitive advantage for using an accessibility feature. The VTR needs to account for this.
However this thread is about the FOV, which is why I am saying the downside on the FOV should not be removed. Accessibility features are perfectly fine to add to the game, but when these features give players a competitive advantage, players should not expect the features to come without drawbacks if they choose to use them.
It is unreasonable to think that you deserve to have a competitive advantage over other players without a downside. It might bad slightly annoying for the players that do legit need the accessibility feature but they still get the extra benefits that come with using it. Accessibility features should not be something that the general playerbase just automatically selects and equips so they can have an advantage over other players.
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After going against a couple of 3gen Knights and Skull Merchants all I can say is these changes have absolutely made 3gen killers stronger and more miserable to play against than ever from my experiences. Sure they can only kick a gen 8 times, but that doesn't matter when they can defend a tight knit 3gen and stop you from ever stopping regression, Knights guards are particularly bad for this. The removal of gen tapping and the extra kick damage just makes it pure suffering to play against these killers in 3 gen situations. BHVR please reconsider the impact these changes have on 3gen gameplay with such killers.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639364#Comment_3639364
They could just return her old iri tape and it would have the same effect with less downsides. It was such a cool addon!
I would also love to see Old Iri-tape. Old-Iri-tape would be stronger than a fixed version of the current Iri-tape simply due to the fact that it gives Onryo control over when she wants to turn her TVs back on.
However I doubt BHVR will consider restoring old Iri-tape back into her kit. Therefore my efforts for this add-on are focused around identifying the issues with the new Iri-tape and providing BHVR with feedback to help make it a good add-on and not the weak add-on it currently is. The new Iri-Videotape has a lot of potential and I love the concept, but as long as survivors can abuse the add-on to quickly turn off all her TVs and completely deny her power without a downside, it will be bad.
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@NickMilian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639364#Comment_3639364
Well it technically does have a cooldown, as the TVs will take 20% longer to turn back on if survivors take a tape and as there's no risk of being condemned, there's no downsides to them taking tapes all game and denying your teleports. You are right in saying that you don't have to play for condemns but it's also a built in slowdown without running a full gen regression build as it's a side objective to gens.
I love playing Sadako as a chase killer but I also enjoy the built in pressure / slowdown condemn applies, without this she's just an M1 killer with some map mobility and there's other killers that do that better IMO.
You are correct that if BHVR doesn't address the add-ons problems, it is a horrible add-on. But if BHVR 1 or 2 simple fixes to it like making it so they can't pick up and turn off additional TVs when carrying a tape and requiring them to drop it off first, the add-on becomes decent to strong. It would become an add-on that still allows for survivors counterplay to her power (as killer powers should) without making it so survivors can shut it down completely.
Whether this add-on is complete trash against good teams or a decent add-on is all completely dependent on whether BHVR is smart enough to realize the issues with it and address them correctly. If they do, it will be a good add-on that creates a fun twist on her power. If they do not, then it is an add-on that survivors can easily abuse to completely deny her power, making the add-on a massive liability.
I would hope that reading all the feedback about it, BHVR can make the right decision with the Iri-videotape and the Rickety Pinwheel add-ons, but then again it is BHVR so they'll likely throw all this feedback away and do their own thing.