Onryo still needs Changes
Holding Tapes Hostage
An extremely unfun and honestly degenerative strategy has started to emerge where players will begin to hold tapes hostage for a period of time to prevent themselves from gaining Condemnation. If The Onryo player isn't around them at that time, they can freely do the objective without much worry of gaining stacks.
This is not a strategy that should be encouraged, so I think the following should be done to make it more threatening to hold a Tape:
- Every 15 seconds while holding a Tape, Survivors gain 1 Condemn stack.
This presents a threat to Survivors that attempt to carry tapes for long periods of time and gives The Onryo just a little more map pressure and passive slowdown.
Cycling Tapes
Another strategy that has been floating around is Survivors simply cycling tapes around and thus preventing Condemnation from doing its job. Though this is effective in the slowdown department, this dramatically reduces The Onryo's pressure against coordinated teams.
To remedy this, I suggest the following changes to make cycling tapes less effective:
- Whenever a Tape is inserted into a TV, that TV will now have an interaction cooldown of 60 seconds. This prevents other Survivors from using the same TV to insert Tapes in.
- Survivors will now turn on TVs whenever putting a Tape into a TV that is off. This TV then has an interaction cooldown of 60 seconds for that Survivor.
This will make it harder for coordinated teams to cycle through the Tapes as effectively and gives The Onryo some more time to be able to act against Survivor teams.
Some Add-Ons Aren't Created Equal
Strategies with The Onryo have been surfacing that allow the Killer to effectively play a different game against Survivors, particularly due to several add-ons that need adjusting. Others may also need to be adjusted due to their overall ineffectiveness.
This is not good, since her weakest add-ons are simply not good to contend against her currently strongest add-ons. As such, this is what these add-ons need to be altered to become:
Videotape Copy
- Movement speed while manifesting is increased by 10%.
Cabin Sign
- Reduces the time it takes for a TV to turn back on from Projection by 8 seconds.
Yoichi's Fishing Net
- Reduces the cooldown of Projection by 2 seconds.
Sea-Soaked Cloth
- Survivors within 16 meters of a powered TV will suffer from the Blindness status effect.
- This effect lingers for 7 seconds after leaving the TV's proximity.
Ring Drawing
- Survivors that perform a healing action on an injured Condemned Survivor gain 1 stack of Condemned.
- Condemned Survivors that are healed from the Injured State lose 1 stack of Condemned per Survivor that healed them.
Rickety Pinwheel
- Survivors within 16 meters of a powered TV will suffer from the Oblivious status effect.
- Survivors with at least 3 stacks of Condemned will suffer the effect until they are under 3 stacks.
Mother's Comb
- When The Onryo manifests by any means, the duration of her next lunge attack is increased by 33%.
VCR
- All TVs play the Projection effects when The Onryo projects to a TV.
- Whenever The Onryo hits a Survivor carrying a Tape, the last 2 TVs turned off by Projection will be turned back on.
Telephone
- Survivors within 7 meters of The Onryo will scream and reveal their location to her upon witnessing a Manifestation.
- Survivors who scream when witnessing a Manifestation are Hindered for 3 seconds.
Distorted Photo
- Whenever a Survivor gains a full stack of Condemned, their aura is revealed to you for 5 seconds.
Iridescent Video Tape
- Survivors that are fully Condemned can no longer remove Condemned by any means.
- The Condemned threshold is increased by 3 stacks.
Comments
holding tape hostage is the counter-play to sadako. the way you remove tapes is by m1 the survivor to knock it out of their hand or hooking the survivor.
I love new design for killer items. this is how killer item should work. they should introduce like a new gameplay loop for the survivor with the killer having input in decreasing the effectiveness of the counter. the tapes are like most well designed in killer-item in the game.
what a staggering difference is sadako's tapes vs items like nemesis vaccines and singularity emps...
I'm confused. If you read every other recent thread on Sadako there are killer/Sadako mains saying to literally do this (grab and hold a tape) as a counter to her persistent ability to transport and shut down TVs.
But that's not even fun to do for either side. Holding anything hostage is not good design, if you remember what happened with Twins.
the problem with twins is that there is no drawback to not doing it. you delete killer ability to pressure the map because of m1 killer problems. this is still a problem to this day for the twins. with sadako, she gets something out of it for you holding tapes and she can still use global passive of tp after hitting you a couple of times before you pick up another tape.
Uh... Holding tapes hostage IS the counterplay to Sadako, and you are supposed to play around it by getting to tvs before survivors or alternatively reading their movements so you can make an educated guess on where they are going with them.
Also, on your proposal
Big no no, this should be basekit not an add-on. And videotape copy is fine as is, it's a very strong add-on.
NO! TVs already turn on realy fast, 8 extra seconds with no downsides is way too good.
Perhaps? But you already recover your power fast enough in my opinion, I think this would make some situations miserable for survivors.
Garbage, especially now that survivors are more incentivized to grab tapes, both this add-on and rickety pinwheel should be change for something different.
Cool concept but way too strong at 3 stacks, 5 stacks seems way more reasonable.
Actually really cool concept, this is how it should work lore wise.
That sounds like fun but I feel like mother's comb is really necessary for newer Sadako players to learn how to adopt the condemned playstyle, I would rather have the effect you propose put into a different add-on
This sounds ok but at the rate at which TVs turn back on I don't think it would be particularly strong, but I guess it's ok for a purple
This is just distorted photo but worse
Holy crap NO! You would basically have perma info on every survivor and you would know exactly when they gain stacks, this is way too much info for Sadako.
This sounds like garbage, 3 stacks is way too much (you would need to teleport 14 times instead of 10 for survivors to reach max condemnation). The effect really isn't worth the downside.
So is not ok to hold tapes to avoid condemn as a counterplay but is ok to slug to bleed out and refuse to hook so she can just teleport everytime to apply condemn? Because that's what most Sadako players are doing
It's a bad rework. To solve the problem, they have to revert the changes and do something different.
Nerfing or changing her slightly will not make the problem go away.
This killer was fun, unique and engaging.
Now most of what was fun about her is gone.
Nice to see people want to see changes though.
However, regarding, that almost all of the Ptb feedback was ignored, I would not get my hopes up that any of the feedback here will stumble upon attention.
#bringbackSadako
I disagree with your suggestion. They have to make holding a tape the safe option because the entire rework is broken otherwise. It is the one effective counterplay and if they change this then she would be truly OP. I agree though it is absolutely silly that holding a cursed tape protects survivors.
This all really shows how the rework is completely short sighted in its implementation. As so many of us mentioned in all the PTB feedback, she would destroy inexperienced players who don't know that counter and then be destroyed by experienced players. It is just horrible gameplay, horrible design.
Global condemn is a mistake and just a nightmare to balance. They need to just revert the changes and admit that they made a mistake. Because of the potential for global condemn to be oppressive, they had to nerf her mobility and change how tapes work. The appeal to playing Onryo was the mobility. By forcing her entire kit to revolve around global condemn at the expense of mobility, she is less fun to play. It also means it is less fun for survivors because they don't like losing because 1 teammate died right away due to them not knowing the simple counter. The old design for Onryo was better because she had to work to earn condemn kills (outside of slug Onryo), instead of just pressing a button every 10 seconds and hoping survivors don't know the simple counterplay of holding a tape.
Furthermore, the changes to tapes go completely against the spirit of her character. Tapes shouldn't serve as a shield to protect survivors, they are cursed tapes. The old version of Onryo nailed this aspect where survivors were generally only in danger of condemn when they "watched"/took a tape. It was a risk reward system. You could deny Onryo her power at critical moments such as the last gen almost being done or to deny a TV near a survivor needing to be unhooked.
I won't touch on your add-on suggestions but the rework add-on changes in general are appalling and utterly baffling. In general they need to just accept this rework is a complete failure and bad for the game. They could easily revert most of the changes and keep a few of the good ones like the change to Ring Drawing or the initial TV cooldown times.