Skitten56
Skitten56
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Deadzones on Crotus were actually part of the map balance for m1 type killers. Crotus is a big map with strong tiles, but they were spaced out by the deadzones which helped limit the ability of survivors to chain them together.
Deadzones or areas with limited resources are not something that need to be completely removed, map balance just needs to take them into account. Some maps should have very few deadzones based on size and design. Other maps should have a few deadzones or have areas that can quickly be made into deadzones, usually this is for larger maps as the deadzones help non-mobility killers on those maps.
Crotus is a large map and I wouldn't want it shrunk down like a lot of other maps recently just to make it more balanced with these pallet changes, rather I would want it to stay the size as it currently is. Large maps have their own playstyles and that variety makes dbd more fun and interesting, deadzones between tiles are a way to help keep larger maps balanced.
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Myers rework was really bad and low effort. Skull Merchant being gutted for this long is ridiculous and insulting to those who spent money on her.
Springtrap is a fair and balanced killer though, and new Sadako is not that hard to understand if you look into her new power.
However, one thing really bothers me is you saying Pig is suddenly dashslop since her QoL updates. She was always a dash killer, just her dash was weaker than other and could only really be used at certain tiles.
BHVR actually handled Pig really well. They didn't destroy her RBT potential (although they did try) while they also buffed her dash in a meaningful enough way that it is a threat on a lot more tiles and survivors can't just leave the tile the moment she crouches and make it to the next one, but also making it not a free hit like newer killers so that she still feels rewarding.
I wish BHVR treated more killers like how they handled Pig and not just straight up gutting them and reworking them like Myers and Skull Merchant.
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Artist is fine, maybe could use a few tweaks but not any significant changes. They are strong but they take skill to use. This means they are healthy for the game. It is fine to have killers that are hard to play but reward skillful play like Singularity and Artist. If players want to play easier killers, they can play something like Ghoul, Dark Lord, or Clown.
Also for the love of the Entity do not do a rework for Artist. After all these botched reworks, how could anyone thing reworking a more or less perfectly fine killer is a good idea.
If I were to tweak Artist, maybe make birds have more vertical hitbox for maps with elevation and maybe add an extra .5 sec for swarmed birds to disappear so Artist has more time to get snipes.
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Just reverse the add-on, so that now using the add-on gives you the new reworked Myers and then everything else is reverted to old Myers. Win for everyone.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
To be honest, I don't think the Krause "scamper" is unfair. Her vault time is 1.7s after the ptb, they nerfed it. Chucky's scamper was only 1.3s
I agree with you, but combined with the rest of her kit, she is utterly unstoppable in the hands of a good killer.
They need to address the lack of recovery cool-downs, her spit having auto-aim, and survivors staying infected after getting hooked. Only after those changes can we start talking about her actual balance.
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@Roaroftime said:
Play solo q
I play soloq 99% of the time and the changes were horrible for killers and would have ruined alot of fun plays survivors could do as well. I wasn't a fan of the changes for either side as a result.
Some of their perk changes and basekit features were so utterly boring imo. Basekit Regression in the form of Pop was not well thought out since it tended to favor stronger killers while weaker ones wouldn't get much use; should have been passive like grim or Pain Res. Also no need to give basekit BBQ and delete the existing perk. Honestly too much to mention was bad, PTB had too much going on by having such changes along side a chapter release and a major character rework.
BHVR should have kept a few of the changes though into live. Reducing the penalty from 6 to 3 hooks would have been fine as a start. And letting survivors recover at least once for free should have been fine.
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Anti-tunnel changes were awful and horribly implemented on the PTB and should not have hit live in such a state.
That said BHVR is fumbling hard lately for survivors. Fog vials still not buffed to have charges based on rarity or stronger fog, no anti-slug changes but nerfed OTR, and Ghoul / Krasue were somehow deemed fine to release.
I don't blame survivors for not wanting to deal with this atm.
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@Dadeordye said:
The anti-tunnel and slug changes were a MASSIVE handheld for survivors.
BUT I can see that BHVR also want killer players to be handheld. Krasue's auto aim, Clown with insta Yellow Bottles, Trickster since the last rework…
There's a difference between making the game "more accessible" and "more easy".
God damn it!
I'm part of a Whatsapp group where an imbecil said "Krasue is so fun!" and them people replied "she is broken because she doesn't have ANY cooldown for anything" and the imbecil replied "even better then"🤦♂️Yeah, handholds on both sides will kill the game by making it incredibly boring. The less skill expression the more the game will just feel like players going through the motions.
BHVR needs to stop, take a step back, and rethink how they want the future of this game to look.
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At this point I can't see BHVR returning Onryo bad to single target condemn, even though returning to release Onryo with the QoL buffs and part basekit Iri-tape would be fine.
BHVR will also likely never revert to hiding TV auras across the board, The auras help newer players and the white auras for killer objects being visible is consistent with their new standardization. I just don't see a point in fighting a losing battle. Better to fight for hiding the auras conditionally when it won't hurt new players but will help Onryo against skilled players, such as when holding a tape.
Best compromise for addressing TV auras and strong survivor counterplay while not hurting newer players would be to hide TV auras from survivors already holding tapes and either increasing the amount of stacks for turning off a TV when holding a tape, or giving survivors ticking condemn if turning off a TV while holding a tape.
Same with returning to ticking condemn without restrictions. For similar reasons as to TV auras, I don't see BHVR doing this so its best to argue for it conditionally such as when survivors hold onto a tape for longer than 120 seconds or something, and then they get ticking condemn as mentioned above.
I do like your suggestion of the flickering buffs as they would allow for more mindgames which she could use as an m1 killer. Also strongly agree with increasing the TV interaction from 1 second to 1.5 seconds.
Add-ons:
It is hard to comment on the add-on changes since your suggestions for them assume your new power idea is in effect, however there are a few that are worth pointing out.
The add-ons changes you suggested that I really liked were the following:
- Cabin sign - Allowing Onryo to break survivor tapes on m1 would help a lot with punishing suriviors that feel safe enough to ignore condemn until chase and then insert the tape in the killers face.
- Well Water - Giving survivors a stack on gen completion would be a nice effect, nothing major but could catch survivors off guard if they rush gens over condemn management.
- Tape Editing Deck - Adding a new effect to Tape Editing Deck where survivors within 3 meters of a TV get extra additions stacks would be great. This effect could replace the current primary effect of survivors starting with tapes, as that effect of survivors starting with tapes is actively detrimental to Onryo.
I would also like to take a moment to tell BHVR that Sea-Soaked Cloth and Ricky Pinwheel need to work when TVs are NOT powered on, instead of how they currently work around active TVs. The counterplay for this killer with the reworks pretty much assures survivors will never be within the radius of an active TV for more than a few seconds, rendering these add-ons virtually useless.
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Even if she was balanced for that kind of game balance design, it would still be horribly unfun if implemented within such a system.
There is nothing fun about getting easy downs due to an OP power in order to force quick chase times. or going down quick with no counterplay options because BHVR decides punishing killer mistakes is unfair.
Designing / balancing killers the way Krasue was is a HORRIBLE mistake we're seeing play out LIVE.
Their design and balance direction as of late is just terrible in general for the game and will lead to bad outcomes. I'm deeply worried for the future of the game at this point. Killer powers and map rebalances have been utter garbage as of late.
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My presets never even saved the names and just reset every time I would boot the game up. I was listed as a known issue so I thought they'd fix it in a patch or 2. Now somehow they managed to break it even more for other players? You wouldn't think it would be that hard to have names save, but BHVR is BHVR.
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BHVR forgot that large maps are balanced by having Deadzones. So instead they decided to shrink maps and add more pallets to fill the deadzones.
Map variety is going downhill.
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BHVR is breaking dbd more and more every update and this is what we are spending our time discussing?
Does it look a bit out of place? Sure. Is it worth it to complain about something you see for 2 seconds before you hit play game compared to the numerous bugs, horrible implemented features, and trend of changing gameplay making the game worse and worse? No.
TLDR: It is fine. More important things to worry about in dbd right now than the banner.
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I appreciate that they tried to preserve old Myers for those who love him, but yeah as you point out, this add-on just completely fails to create the old Myers experience.
BHVR needs to fix this add-on if they don't intend to do a full revert of his power.
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Leverage should not be nerfed as long as Resurgence exists as it is.
Healing is as easy as ever and anti-heal perks are weaker than ever. Leverage was one of the last perks stopping survivors from being healed basically the moment they got unhooked and now it is nerfed for seemingly no reason.
Leverage was a perfectly fine perk. Extra duration does basically nothing for it but the reduced slowdown on healing is a hefty nerf. Better off running gen regression for slowdown.
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I probably won't play Myers again unless they revert him. I spent money on him to play with the old Myers' power, not this new one.
Really makes me not want to buy newer killers since I don't know if they will just decide to rework them on a whim.
Went through that already with my main Onryo where the 1st rework just was not fun for me anymore and I basically didn't play her for 6 months. Thank god the current Onryo rework at least feels somewhat like release Onryo.
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OTR, Leverage, and Monitor changes are insanity.
If BHVR is going to try and make major changes to the game like removing haste stacking or anti-tunnel. They need to do it all comprehensively and at all at once.
BHVR can't make major changes to the game like this and only update a few perks at a time. Haste changes might not have been rejected so strongly if BHVR actually spent the time to update all the affected perks, killers, and add-ons.
Leaving in the perk changes that were clearly changed to work with the anti-tunnel changes is just lazy. This community deserves better than this.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
I’m torn, because i don’t really like the rework but I’m sick of getting tombstoned without a single hookstate because someone else fed him to 99. I don’t think being able to kill a survivor without hooking them a single time is healthy and all forms of it (save devour) should be removed.
BHVR could have fixed Tombstone by doing 3 simple things:
- Remove Tomstone Piece add-on. Way too easy in an average game to take 1 survivor out with it which makes the rest of the game difficult.
- Make it so Myers can't use the Tombstone mori on survivors with Endurance status effect. This would stop Myers from being able to mori survivors off hook for example, and would allow for more counterplay with perks like Deadhard.
- Make it so in order to Tombstone mori a specific survivor, Myers needs to stalk them up to at least a specific % first. This would stop Myers from Tombstone moring a survivor out of the game that played well while their teammates feed him stalk.
With these 3 changes Tombstone Myers because a much fairer and fun add-on to go against.
I personally think that for the rework BHVR should keep combine Judith's Tombstone add-on and the infinite Tier 3 add-on into 1. So people can still play Tombstone but they have to stalk up a TON in order to actually mori anyone. Especially if BHVR also adds the 3 changes mentioned before.
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BHVR reworking Myers like this really makes me not want to buy any more killers.
Why should I spend my money on a character which looks really fun to play only for BHVR to completely change how they work. Not to mention Skull Merchant is STILL gutted and basically has no power right now.
BHVR needs to STOP reworking killers just because many in the community say they are weak or survivors dislike them because they are not dash/m1 chase gameplay. Myers was on the weaker side, but he was very fun to play as he was and did not need to be reworked like this.
I probably won't play Myers ever again after this rework because why would I? BHVR ruined his identity and he is basically a mixture of Chucky and Pig now. If BHVR thinks I'm going to play Pig-lite Myers, I'd rather just play Pig.
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BHVR needs to just stop doing reworks for killers that are pretty much fine. They need to finish up their current WIP reworks and then just stop doing new reworks for killers that are generally fine and only need number tweaks like Myers. Myers was weak yes, but he was fun to play and now he is turning into Pig.
I'm sick of spending money on characters only for BHVR to just change how they are played.
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Yes, just rework Purple Tombstone Piece to do this and everyone will be happy.
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I know you are addressing how BHVR generally balances alternate win conditions and not your personal solution, but I feel the need to talk about them in case BHVR thinks this would be good for Onryo.
The first is to have the ability build by being spaced out via hooks anyway, so it reasonably won't affect someone unless they'd die on their next down anyway. This is how Pyramid Head works, and how Myers is being suggested to work in this new update.
This would completely remove the unique playstyle from the game and make her a much worse Pig. Survivors would just ignore condemn unless they are on deathhook. This would leave her as a m1 killer with the worst anti-loop in the game, it would be miserable. BHVR better not think to do this with her condemn mechanic just because some survivors hate anything that isn't the standard gameplay loop and complain about condemn.
What BHVR is likely planning to do to Myers for example just because some survivors complain about Tombstone is a sin. Survivors can easily just get in a locker or stay on a generator to force a grab, (if he is in T3 anyways they would be instant downed so its not like the outcome is any different anyways).Survivors not engaging with Onryo's condemn mechanic when the counterplay is so easy should NOT be grounds to gut her playstyle from the game.
The second is to have the ability be completely, 100% avoidable by survivors, in exchange for them willingly slowing down the game to avoid it. This is how Pig is designed, and how I believe Sadako was probably intended to be designed too.
Sadako/Onryo can be played for hooks. But the way Sadako is really meant to be played is for condemn. The condemn mechanic overrides the hooking mechanic.
Instead of survivors looping the killer for at least 3 chases in order to avoid getting hooked 3 times, Onryo changes the game so instead survivors now have to strategically manage condemn and tapes. If a survivor fails to manage condemn properly, then they'll have 1 very important high stakes chase to determine if they live or die.
In my opinion condemn Sadako is completely fair and condemn shouldn't be treated as a gimmick slowdown mechanic, but a real threat and victory condition. Survivors have very easy counterplay to avoid it, (just grab tapes when you see the TV aura), and even if a survivor is fully condemned, they still have a second chance of doing a tape run, (which is not that difficult if full hp as they can just insert the tape in the killers face).
Sadako's condemn should not be designed as a general slowdown mechanic, but instead a real threat.
With this kind of design philosophy behind Sadako - and to be clear, I am not suggesting just making this change to her current power, it'd be the focus of an update that shuffles everything around to support it - Condemned moves further away from being a way to avoid hooking and becomes instead more of a reward for hooking, while still pushing survivors to manage tapes so they don't get too much build up too early.
This, I think, has her shine as the macro-focused juggling killer she's clearly designed to be. Hooking survivors makes them more vulnerable, keeping them off gens a little longer, leaving you time to keep spreading that vulnerability.I agree, her macro-focused playstyle is what makes her so fun and unique for me. If BHVR takes that away from her, then they are basically killing what I like about her.
Locking in 3 stacks per hook state I don't think would make anyone want to hook more than normal though. We already have to spam teleport to turn off TVs near survivors at the start, because if they all grab tapes at the start you lose pretty much all pressure for the rest of the match. And if Onryo does well with condemn early game, then the person Onryo hooked likely already has 3 stacks so she doesn't benefit for your suggested change.
If survivors do grab tapes early though, then it would help you be able to focus condemn on that survivors. So while I don't think your change would make survivors want to go for hooks more than normal (aside from hookless or slugging Onryos), I do think it would help her.
However, this would likely make survivors that dislike Sadako hate her even more, because now they would see themselves getting punished regardless for doing the counterplay properly. BHVR needs to be careful when balance condemn because of how strong removing a survivor from the game can be.
TLDR:
I don't think your specific change about getting 3 stacks of condemn for the first hook would be bad or unhealthy. I think it would make her more viable, but again I think survivors would complain more as a result.
I personally would rather have BHVR address Sadako by fixing her broken/useless add-ons and make the counterplay a bit harder for experienced survivors by hiding TV auras when holding a tape (other than the target TV), and also change back the TV interaction speed for survivors to something like 1.5 seconds to 2 seconds.
Such changes wouldn't hurt newer/casual players where she currently stomps but would provide a tangible benefit against skill teams that currently know they can just grab and hold onto tapes at the start and avoid most risk from condemn.
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I really hope they keep how his add-ons allow for an variety of interesting ways he can be played. Knowing BHVR though they'll gut all the cool interesting parts of his kit and he'll just have stealth mode and dash mode. yay.
Honestly I hope they just don't rework him. The rework preview did not look interesting or worth the cost of losing one of the few unique killers in the game.
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Can we please not remove any more interactive features to this game than BHVR already has. Killers are meant to have unique function and ways to engage with them. Things that make them stand out and play differently should be celebrated.
If some players had there way, any killer that requires you to think outside of standard m1 chase gameplay would be reworked to do so.
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Completely agree with you.
Basekit Pop is one of the worst parts of BHVR's attempt to balance anti-tunnel with rewards. Fast/mobility killers will be able to take full advantage of this, meanwhile slower killers will have to cross map.
The regression/slowdown aspect of these balance changes needs to be passive. Instead of Pop it should work more like Pain Res as you suggested and be passive. Requiring killers to go out of their way to kick an important gen that could be on the opposite side of the map to get their reward for not tunneling is just silly.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
It's not 360°, it's 180°.
It is definitely more than 180. I took an Oni around shack and they 180'ed from the wall into the doorway and then around the corner to get me. So at least 270.
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@Shroompy said:
How do you even get tunneled in 2v8
Oni just needs to be tonned down and should require WAY more blood than he does right now. The uptime of his power regardless of what killer is in play is insane.
If you play a fast killer like Oni or Billy, its pretty easy to predict where the survivor will get caged and just zoom across the map to get them after they get unhooked.
Dbd spawn logic is fairly predictable for things like this. Just look at where you and your teammate are and figure out the farthest spot or 2 on the map from that, and that is where the survivor likely is most of the time.
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Don't forget if Onryo uses killer instinct as well. If Onryo teleports and a recently unhooked survivor gets full condemn, she won't get the critical information on their location in order to chase and deny a tape pickup. If that survivor gets healed to full health and gets a tape, basically they have to misplay massively to not easily remove their condemn. That killer instinct info is critical for Onryo if BHVR plans to completely hide unhook info/notifications.
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@joycourier said:
I really enjoy The Shape as he is, and there's a lot of people on reddit who aren't a fan of these changes:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1n3aikv/myers_mains_rn/
Reducing the variety in killer playstyles would be a shame
For real. This game needs more variety to keep it interesting. Instead BHVR seems keen to make every killer and every match play out the same way. Killers like Myers are needed in this game to keep it fun.
Also Judith's Tombstone Myers was not a problem, only Tombstone Piece. If a player couldn't counter Tombstone Myers and complains about it, then they are part of the problem for why this game is leaning towards only 1 viable playstyle. Tombstone has easy counterplay and all BHVR really needed to do was give survivors a way to know he had Tombstone in play before they get moried.
Making Myers a dash killer is just so uninspired and boring for what was a very fun and unique killer to play and play against.
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@BlackRabies said:
Sadako got hit the hardest this patch with the anti tunnel stuff if someone been killed before 6 hooks. I don't play her, but isn't it fairly common for her to get a condemn kill before 6 hooks? This would be a rather big nerf to her removing her ability to regress gens with how her kit works.
It depends on how well Onryo can apply condemn pressure and how well survivors can do tape runs. Onryo shifts the game from survivors avoiding hooks to survivors avoiding condemn. A typical Onryo game against a good team will generally have someone get condemned moried by 1-2 gens left with only 1-4ish hooks I'd say, or no moris at all because survivors managed their tapes well.
Of course you occasionally get the games where 1 survivor won't engage in the counterplay and do tapes so the whole team dies at like 4 gens, but that is more of a survivor failing than something Onryo should be punished for. Killers shouldn't be punished if survivors don't engage in the counterplay.
Onryo is an unconventional killer, so changes that BHVR makes to address conventional play need to take Onryo into consideration and the impact it will have on her. If survivors know the counterplay Onryo is not a strong killer in the slightest and these changes will hurt Onryo for finally getting a condemned survivor out of a game that is likely already very close.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990334#Comment_3990334
the devs are actively misinforming killers now
Yeah if the HUD lies to me about game information, then I'm just done with BHVR and any faith I have left in their balance team. Utterly ridiculous if such a change comes to live.
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Just going to leave my initial thoughts here:
Slugging Reduction:
If a Survivor is left in the Dying State for a total of 90 seconds during a match, they gain the ability to pick themselves up after fully recovering.
Gradually increases crawling speed for Survivors who are left in the Dying State.
Added the ability for Survivors to recover while crawling. Recovery now occurs passively with no need to hold a button.
Perfectly fine changes. Should punish aggressive slugging without hurting standard gameplay. 10/10.
Tunneling Reduction:
When a Survivor is hooked, their hook status is hidden from the Killer. When they’re unhooked, there is no notification and their hook status isn’t revealed immediately.
This was perfectly fine until the last part. No noise notification to avoid killers going straight back to hook, great. But having the HUD lie to you is NOT okay.
Unhooked Survivors gain the following effects for a limited time:
Haste, Endurance, and Elusive (see below) status effects.No collision with other players (both Killer and Survivor).
Immunity to Killer Instinct and sees the Killer’s aura nearby.These effects are lost when the affected Survivor perform a Conspicuous Action.
All these effects (except Haste and Endurance) are disabled once all generators are completed.
Added a unique effect to the Killer hook state UI that indicates the last Survivor they hooked.
Most of this is good, but I'm completely against removing collision for unhooked survivors. Do survivors abuse it, yes. However it can also be punished and end up costing them more. The last few years BHVR has been removing interactivity between the 2 sides and this is just a continuation of the worrying trend.
Simply put, the game is more interesting and fun when there are more moments and decision points where players can interact.
After completing a “unique hook” (the same Survivor is not hooked consecutively), Killers get the following benefits:
- Bonus damage for the next generator kick.
So now those who run builds to avoid kicking gens are going to be hurt unless they go out of their way to kick gens. Why not just make it a passive effect?
Temporarily reveals Survivors (think basekit BBQ & Chili) that have less or equal hook states to the hooked Survivor.
These effects are slightly lessened for The Blight, The Dark Lord, The Ghoul, The Hillbilly, and The Nurse.
Reducing the effects for stronger killers that don't need it is a nice touch, but could be problematic. Free info can be powerful, and suddenly deciding what killer gets access to the info and does not get it will have an affect on the killers performance.
- If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial.
A permanent gen speed buff can potentially be very strong. Against good teams tunneling is often the only way to actually win when playing weaker killers. By making such teams even stronger when needing to tunnel someone out, it just hurts weaker killers even more. I would balance it by making it have at least an additional requirement.
- "If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, AND dies before 3 generators are completed, then all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial."
This would make it so the mechanic only punishes survivors that tunnel and take someone out early in the game, but doesn't punish killers that are already struggling.
Also killers that can instant kill by properly using their power like Pig, Myers, and Onryo should not trigger this effect. If a killer uses their power effectively and the survivors fail to manage it by doing the counter, such as going in a locker, grabbing tape and doing tape runs, that is just an extension of standard gameplay. Such actions should NOT punish the killer for performing them.
Killer Updates: The Shape
Just no. Instead of reworking unique killers people passionately enjoy in order to make them have more appeal to the general playerbase, maybe spend that energy finally fixing the long list of bugs on practically all killers instead.
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It was so disappointing to see what they planned for Myers. He was fun and unique for both sides, something that stood out in the game amidst the rest of the killers. Now he is basically a dash killer, which can also break pallets in power. How original BHVR.
I guess all those survivors who complained about Tombstone who didn't think about their position relative to the killer, didn't ever go into lockers during chase, and didn't just stay on a gen to waste his time in order to force a hook, are now going to get rewarded for it.
All Myers needed was Tombstone Piece (not Judith's) to get nerfed, and then get some basekit buffs that are disabled when using Tombstone. Maybe even give survivors a notification if Myers is using Tombstone add-on.
These changes from BHVR just destroy Myers' identity and how they will feel to play. I feel so bad for anyone who mains him. This is also why I hate it whenever they say they are going to adjust a killer, because you never know when they are going to do stuff like this. I find it hard to express just how disappointed I am to see these changes.
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Many of her add-ons are either weak and need changes. Some of her more troubling add-ons are basically useless since the rework flipped the survivor counterplay from avoiding TVs, into now them wanting to turn off all nearby TVs. As such I do agree she needs an add-on pass, though I do worry about BHVR removing or reworking some of the good/fun ones.
I'd like to share my thoughts on the 6 add-ons that need to be addressed the most.
Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth
When they reworked her and changed her counterplay from being avoid pick-up up tapes into grabbing tapes, they really made Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth add-ons pretty useless. Now any half-decent survivor will grab a tape the second they see a TV aura while on a gen, and given these add-ons only work within 8 meters of powered TVs, they are basically useless.
Fixing this issue I don't think is very hard. They can both be reworked to be activated when a TV is either not powered, or have them activate for a fixed duration after a survivor pulls a tape from that TV.
Iridescent Videotape
I love the concept of this add-on where you trade condemn pressure for mobility. However in reality against knowledgeable teams it just means you have no condemn pressure and no mobility. Survivors just have too much control over her power if they know what they are doing. Without the slowdown from condemn pressure, you'll basically never have a useful TV to teleport. Strong survivor counterplay is reasonable when she has condemn pressure, but with this add-on the counterplay is too free and too punishing to her.
I think there are varying solutions to this issue. In short BHVR needs to make the counterplay more restrictive and difficult to survivors when running this add-on. The following are a few suggestion on how to achieve this:
- Limit how often survivors can grab tapes, such as not letting them turn off or interact with TVs other than their tape drop off TV while that survivor is holding a tape.
- Limiting a survivors info on TVs, such as removing the auras of TVs with the add-on, or hiding the auras if the survivor is holding a tape.
- Make it less punishing for Onryo when survivors do turn off TVs. Reducing the TV cool-down for TVs turned off by survivors from the current 80+ seconds to instead something like 45 seconds would do wonders.
- Give it some functions of the original Iri-tape. Make it so that when hitting a survivor within 8 seconds after manifesting, 3 random TVs turn back on. This would still allow survivors to have the strong counterplay, but also reward the Onryo for getting hits by resetting some of those TVs on long cool-down.
Clump of Hair
This add-on is just so weak. It doesn't really matter if Onryo is visible or not because survivors will still have the directional lullaby to know she is coming.
This add-on should be reworked to serve as a means to manage her lullaby and make her stealth viable. BHVR could rework this add-on to achieve this by doing one or a few of the following:
- Give the add-on an additional effect: Extends Onryo's lullaby, making it map-wide.
- Give the add-on an additional effect: Removes her lullaby when demanifested.
- Increase the add-ons effect so that it decreases the range at which Onryo is visible while demanifested by 8 or 10 meters.
- Give the add-on an additional effect: Reduces the range at which her lullaby can be heard by 8 or 10 meters.
VCR
This add-on has always been weak, but the reworks have only managed to make it weaker. This add-on is essentially only good at scaring newer players or those who have not gone against Onryo that much, and once they realize what is going on, it loses all value. Good survivors can easily counter this add-on since they can now see TV auras for free. All survivors need to do when they hear her teleporting is to look at the TV aura, and if it turns off then they know it is their TV and to run. It used to be survivors would have to be cautious if they couldn't directly see the TV, but now with TV auras the add-on playing sfx for all TVs is useless. This is not even getting into the fact that good survivors will never be near a powered TV to begin with since the counterplay is to always turn them off now.
This add-on should be reworked to help address how strong TV auras are for skilled survivors without punishes newer or less experienced survivors. This can be done by giving this add-on the following additional effect.
- While survivors are carrying a tape, they cannot see the auras of TVs other than their specific assigned tape drop-off TV.
As mentioned this change would make this add-on useful and allow Onryo players to help manage how strong TV auras are for skilled survivors without punishing less skilled ones since it still allows for them to see TV auras without a tape.
Tape Editing Deck
Unless you are using this add-on as a very bad Lethal Pursuer, this add-on just gives survivors a jump start to countering Onryo and removing any condemn pressure you've built up. This add-on was fine for release Onryo, but with the reworks shifting the counterplay from avoiding tapes to now always grabbing tapes, it is now essentially a survivor add-on in most circumstances.
To fix this add-on I would buff the secondary effect to give the add-on more power compared to the cost of losing all your starting condemn pressure.
- Change the secondary effect from
"Anytime a Survivor inserts a tape in their target TV, reveal their aura for 6 seconds"into Anytime a survivor interacts with a TV, reveal their aura for 6 seconds.
This would give Onryo consistent info across the match and help justify the horrible upfront cost downside of giving survivors tapes at the start.
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I don't think having tapes break on m1 hit is a good idea. We had this on the last rework and I believe it was the main reason she was oppressive. Not having the condemn stack with the hit would help balance it but I think it is best to avoid.
I do 100% agree though that survivors need some sort of consequence for holding tapes. Right now her counterplay is too easy and punishes Onryo too hard by letting the survivor remove condemn pressure as well as restricting her mobility. 4 survivors doing tapes properly in a match just feels awful.
The only way to counter survivors doing tapes is to teleport spam and keep TVs off, which of course survivors then complain about, but it is literally the only viable options due to how easy the counterplay for them is.
As for solutions, I don't really see an easy way forward. The main problem with the reworked Onryo is how BHVR shifted the risk vs reward aspect of her power.
Onryo's release version gave Onryo punished survivors for getting tapes by giving them ticking condemn, so most survivors ignored the cursed tapes as they should. However if survivors decided they really wanted a reward like Onryo not being able to teleport to a TV, or them wanting to lower their amount of condemn, then survivors would have to take a risk by grabbing a tape in order to achieve the reward the wanted. This created a power balance between survivors ability to counter Onryo, and Onryo's ability to counter survivors.
Current Onryo gives survivors pretty much all reward for essentially no risk.
- Survivors can see the auras of TVs so they always know if they are in danger.
- Survivors grab tapes in order to turn off TVs to deny condemn with no consequences; this action also denies Onryo's mobility at the same time.
- Because the counterplay now is never be near a TV that is turned on, survivors will basically never be near a powered TV unless in chase, but even in chase they can easily avoid them due to the auras.
- Survivors can interact with TVs incredibly fast, which makes mid-chase tape inserts easy. So even if Onryo does catch a survivor out of position, they can still get the tape off, especially if their TV is by a good tile.
Right now there is no balance. If survivors are knowledgeable, then they have control over Onryo's power. They will just always grab tapes and never be near a powered TV, giving Onryo no mobility or condemn pressure. There are no downsides to survivors doing this. The only means Onryo has to try and regain control is to teleport constantly and keep TVs turned off, something which survivors complain about.
There needs to be some downside to grabbing more than 1 tape at a time other than the additional stack. Your suggestion of breaking a tape without giving a stack of condemn could work, but it is risky to balance. One possible idea is to bring back ticking condemn. Make it so that if a survivor turns off a TV while already holding a tape, they get a stack of condemn and also a ticking condemn at a fixed rate until they remove their tapes. However I feel like this would only create some more slowdown for survivors without addressing the core of the issue.
I think to truly fix this problem BHVR needs to return Onryo to a design closer to her release version, however at this point I wouldn't trust them to touch her and not make it a disaster.
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I was really hoping they would not extend it this time. The queue times for 1v4 are just a pain and 2v8 is just boring after the first week.
I guess it is a good excuse to play other games for a while though.
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I respect those who enjoy 2v8, but for me 1v4 is vastly more interesting and fun. The strategic element of the game is much stronger and a players actions feel more meaningful and important.
I enjoy the casual chaos of 2v8 when it comes around to relax but it gets boring after a few days. 1v4 is just more engaging and 2v8 completely destroys the queue times for 1v4. So I really hope they never make it a permanent mode, sorry to those who love it.
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Seems reasonable for a survivor side, but I don't play Kaneki myself to know if this is fair to him. BHVR needs to make sure he still has the same feeling and fun when playing him. So many tweaks or reworks to killers that they have done in the past end up ruining what made them enjoyable to those mains and I don't want Kaneki mains to go through the same thing, regardless of how much I think he needs changes.
Hopefully BHVR and the community will be able to find the right chances to make him feel fair to go against while maintaining the gameplay that makes him fun to play for those who main him.
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@YayC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988380#Comment_3988380
When I tested it I didn't notice it. It goes dark during the transition but returns to normal so this could be a platform specific issue.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988424#Comment_3988424
Reiko's watch is doing what it's supposed to, but the time you're meant to be invisible isn't as high as it should be because the base invisibility is bugged.
With Reiko's it's 1.3 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds it's meant to be. But that's still higher than what it's supposed to be basekit (even if it's only by 0.1 seconds).
Thanks for the heads up about Reiko's Watch. I'll have to bring out my manifest mindgame builds again. Also regarding the dark maps, I'm on PC and Lery's is dark for me every time when demanifested. Really hope they fix it soon because it is a really pain.
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Great list. Hopefully BHVR will take a look into these issues. On a side note, is Reiko's Watch still bugged. I've been avoiding it but maybe I missed it getting fixed on the patch notes.
@CatInDisguise I'd love to share my thoughts regarding her add-ons. Her add-ons definitely should get looked at. I don't want to derail the thread too much though so I'll just voice my thoughts on the 2 main ones.
Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth
When they reworked her and changed her counterplay from being avoid pick-up up tapes into grabbing tapes, they really made Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth add-ons pretty useless. Now any half-decent survivor will grab a tape the second they see a TV aura while on a gen, and given these add-ons only work within 8 meters of powered TVs, they are basically useless.
Fixing this issue I don't think is very hard. They can both be reworked to be functioned when a TV was either not powered, or for a fixed duration after a survivor pulls a tape from that TV.
Iridescent Videotape
I love the concept of this add-on where you trade condemn pressure for mobility. However in reality against knowledgeable teams it just means you have no condemn pressure and no mobility. Survivors just have too much control over her power if they know what they are doing. Without the slowdown from condemn pressure, you'll basically never have a useful TV to teleport. Strong survivor counterplay is reasonable when she has condemn pressure, but with this add-on the counterplay is too free and too punishing to her.
I think there are varying solutions to this issue. In short BHVR needs to make the counterplay more restrictive and difficult to survivors when running this add-on.
One option would be to limit how often they can grab tapes, such as not letting them turn off or interact with TVs other than their tape drop off TV while that survivor is holding a tape. Another option would be limiting their info on TVs, such as removing the auras of TVs with the add-on, or hiding the auras if the survivor is holding a tape. A 3rd option would be to make it less punishing for Onryo by reducing the TV cool-down for TVs turned off by survivors from the current 80+ seconds to instead something like 45 seconds.
The last option which I doubt BHVR would put effort into would be to give it some functions of the original Iri-tape. Make it so that when hitting a survivor within 8 seconds after manifesting, 3 random TVs turn back on. This would still allow survivors to have the strong counterplay, but also reward the Onryo for getting hits by resetting some of those TVs on long cool-down. Also we would get that amazing sfx back into the game.
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987640#Comment_3987640
It's a casual oriented game mode. The goal of the mechanic is make each match play out to the end without a total stomp on either side. Remember, no MMR.
If anything I greatly prefer this mechanic over an MMR
I completely agree. For 1v4 it should absolutely not have any sort of catch up mechanic, but in 2v8 it feels just right since there seems to be no MMR and its just chaotic fun.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
Legion and Oni
Honestly just Oni. Legion is super easy to counter and not a problem really. Oni however is always in power and has crazy turns compared to normal so he is super hard to counter.
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I'm fine with guide not getting the gen speed back, but they need to do something else to make it better. As they are now, I think they are just too weak/uninteractive compared to the other classes.
I think a nice solution to help make the class more interesting would be if Guides had a boost to opening chests or something, or maybe get to open 1 chest instantly per hook state.
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She basically has no power but survivors still get super toxic, salty and say you are trash for playing her just because of something that happened 2 years and reworks ago.
If you enjoy m1 killers though she is still fun. She has some on demand undetectable which can be useful. Also her add-ons can give her essentially free lethal pursuer or free Brutal Strength, which is very nice to have.
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I don't mind him being in power the whole game. What is frustrating as a survivor for me though is how much he can turn. I'm sure better survivors can counter it but to me it feels very hard to counter compared to normal Oni.
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After experiencing the killer queue hell that was the last few months after 2v8 through Five Nights at Freddy's chapter, I can absolutely say I prefer speed generally. There was a period of a few months where I only played survivor even though I usually play killer more just because of how bad the queues were.
I am willing to wait 2-3 minutes max on average for a good match, after that it starts to get excessive. If I occasionally wait longer that it is fine, but those days of waiting 10-15min every time I queued was just too much.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984051#Comment_3984051
Both the tombstone addons need to be completely reworked.
It's absolutely ridiculous that Pig and Sadako had their alternate kill conditions massively massively nerfed, but Myers can still force an instant kill with far less effort, and far less counterplay.
For Tombstone Piece I completely agree, it needs to be reworked. However, Judith's Tombstone has fine counterplay.
Judith's Tombstone Myers takes some time to charge up so players paying attention can get a feeling for whether he has it or not based on how long it takes for Myers to tier up. Also he would be able to instadown in T3 anyways, so forcing grabs or getting in lockers isn't even that much different than if he wasn't running Tombstone.
Judith's Tombstone just requires survivors to be more aware of their surroundings and to make sure they don't end up in a bad situation. If a player can't find a locker or doesn't know to stay on a gen to force him to waste his time or hook, thats a problem with the player.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
The Shape gameplay update. I really hope you guys do right by my boy. Please don't let him lose his identity of feeling like Michael Myers.
I panic every time BHVR decides to go back and touch up old killers, especially killers that are very unique in the game like Myers. I really hope they can keep his identity. I love how much his add-ons affect how he is played and counted.
I worry about Tombstone the most. I know a lot of players complain about Tombstone but there are also many who enjoy playing against it. It makes the game a lot more scary/tense and creates new ways to interact with the game. Suddenly survivors need to focus on positioning and being near lockers or gens near chase in order to force grabs.
I personally do not think Judith's Tombstone add-on is broken or needs changes, however I would not be bothered if BHVR removed or heavily reworked Tombstone Piece.
As long as Myers has some form of Tombstone I will be more or less satisfied.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I totally hear the frustration here and know I personally can't change how these nerfs feel for you, but I do want to make sure the feedback I'm bringing back to the team is as specific as possible and as representative of your experiences in the game as possible. With that, it makes it easier to advocate for changes.
If you don't mind me pulling this back a step to dig into the details, I'd like to ask two specific questions:
1. Of the two recent nerfs to Fog Vials (reduced opacity; max 2 charges), do you feel that one of these in particular pushed the item from feeling viable to feeling like it's not worth using? If so, which was it?
2. If you could make one specific change to Fog Vials that'd push them towards being an item you'd enjoy using, what would it be?
I hear the more general feedback (and rest assured, it's being collected and shared with the team), but if there are specific facets of the recent nerfs that felt most impactful, I want to make sure I'm giving them my particular attention. That, and things that could make Fog Vials feel better for you (like the great suggestions of increasing the total charges a little more).- Reduced opacity. This change made them much weaker in chase which is the more interactive aspect of the item and the most fun.
- Make it so that the number of charges a Fog Vial has is relative to how well the Fog Vial performs. So a high opacity Fog Vial has less charges compared to a Brown Apprentice's Fog Vial which has more charges. That way players can have a stronger chase high opacity Fog Vial with 1-2 charges or they can have a weaker low opacity Fog Vial with 4-6ish charges.