Rogue11
Rogue11
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- Rogue11
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939153#Comment_3939153
it's like with other games, big part of League players barely plays anything else, big part of CS2 players barely plays anything else too. But dbd has even bigger problem due to general community mindset.If its just like other communities, why would it have an impact on our community behaving differently?
you can, because winrate in dbd as an asym game is calculated completely different and thus killrates are the priority to look upon because they are more accurate way to determine overal average percentage of wins per side. Survivor escape rate is based on INDIVIDUAL escape/die outcome (not team where 3+ men escape counts as a win), while killer outcome is based on...how many survivors are killed. It's really not nuclear physicsIt's not nuclear physics, but people who are arguing that its somehow balanced are trying to find a math that justifies their bad math
All possibilities give a lopsided killer advantage over survivors even if we take your win rate percentage as what happens:
1: Kill rate vs escape (BHVR's), 60 to 40
2: 50% win rate, killers win 10 to 15% more than they lose
3: Use killer win rate and survivor escape rate. Even then, even if we cherry pick two unalike things, its still killers. That's killers having a winning experience of 50%, drawing 10 to 15%, and losing the remainder, while survivors have a win rate of 40%. Even if you count all the draws as losses, that's still killer winning 10% than survivors.
The game isn't balanced. It's not designed to be balanced, that's fine, its balanced in the killer's favor.
If the game not being balanced is "fine" they wouldn't need to create multiple systems to try to force survivors to continue playing matches that are over in the first two minutes.
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@Abbzy said:
Why is nurse most op killer? Because she is free so the game cant be pay to win, now seriously he is strong but not that crazy and his mobility is now same maybe worst than blights and yes he can move fast around map (in indoor maps he will be slower) and he can get injury pretty fast but, he will have to chase you and down you with m1. He cant brute force you like blight when he breaks pallet and is right behind you in no time + he cant down ou with his power (actually he can but he needs vault something with his power just like wesker and you need to stay still for him to do it).
yea lets compare him to wesker (an actually well balanced killer). Hmm way better mobility, entirely free injure, power aims for you, cooldown when canceling or vaulting is half as long, and skill floor is in the basement. idk i'm starting to think op has a point…
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This system should really only be active when 2 survivors are left, as this covers the vast majority of scenarios where survivors stop attempting to make any objective progress.
It should also deactivate as soon as 1 of the survivors is slugged or hooked to not reward slugging for the 4k.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936074#Comment_3936074
Many of those newer tiles were designed with the fun of M1 chase in mind, why? Because the previous iteration was too strong for them; it required you to be M2 or have some kind of strong Chase Power that turned them into 50/50s or forced a mistake. Half the Killers in the Roster do not have a strong Chase Power.
most tiles are perfectly playable for M1 killers. the newer tiles play more like they were designed for killers to play blindfolded and still win
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932826#Comment_3932826
can you inform me what exactly is the true reason behind lasting 20s against M1 killer in first chase and then deciding to give up on hook?
Maybe that maps are so terrible you end up with gens spawning in complete dead zones or pallets that are so weak that even if you somehow get a stun you still get hit. Its sad to think a killer player would feel like they actually outplayed anyone by "winning" a chase at some of the current tiles.
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What's the point of making each new version of 2v8 entirely killer focused instead of improving the survivor experience (the side that isn't attracting enough players)? Shouldn't the hype of playing killer with a friend be enough of a draw considering the long queue times in every previous attempt?
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@radiantHero23 said:
I think its not as bad as nurse, but if the game wants to thrive overall (lower tiier killers be viable across the board) both need to be tuned down. Nurse needs a rework and blight needs nerfs to his base power.
Right now, they are "fine" because the game is partially balanced around them existing. This is the problem though. If the game is balanced around those killers, then other killers are awful in comparison. If the game, however, is balanced more towards the lower tiers, those two (and a few more) become way too oppressive. Its a problem one way or another.
Nurse in particular will always be a bottleneck if not reworked.
How are these killers balanced for the supposed high tier impossible mmr killer games when he's still nearing 70% kill rates at the top 10%?
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916412#Comment_3916412
The irony. People can hate facts and math all they like - it doesn't change reality.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916416#Comment_3916416
If you don't understand these basics, then I don't know what to tell you. I tried explaining them as simply as I can. If you don't grasp it at this point, well, it is what it is.
Let me try dumbing it down for you further:
If you view it as 4 different 1 v 1, a tie is impossible for each 1 v 1 due to the nature of 1 v 1. If you view it as a team, then both sides must both equally neither win nor lose. Killer wins with a 3k+. You cant have a killer get absolutely no win and the survivor "team" get some winning (2 winners on their team). That by definition has survivors winning more than the killer and in turn is not a tie - the survivors would have made out better than the killer IF you viewed it as a team game.
Continuing to repeat the same flawed argument doesn't make you correct. A 2k isn't "no win" for the killer. Its 2 wins and 2 losses. 50% win rate. 50% kill rate. Almost sounds…balanced!
Or if you view it as a team, then a 2k is a DRAW. TIE. STALEMATE. STAND OFF. DEAD HEAT. TOSS-UP. Not a draw "but survivors win some" Not a draw "but the killer lost".
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916395#Comment_3916395
I see where you're trying to come from, but a 2k is a failure to win and is not a tie, it's a loss. The reality is that the game isnt a team vs team game. Survivors do not fully win or fully lose together. Each survivor gets their own win condition - they escape and win or they do not. MMR adjustments are disconnected from win rate, as thay just cares about trying to balance future matches...but thats an entirely different discussion. There are 4 different 1 v 1 matches going on every match. This makes a tie impossible, as there is no way for a killer and survivor to neither win or lose their 1 v 1 unless there's a server disconnect. That being said, there are 4 survivors the killer is facing in total, so while each survivor has their own win condition and wins or loses entirely on their own, each survivor has to have a reduced escape rate to make it fair for the killer. While survivors don't win together or lose together, each survivor having a 38.5% escape rate would put having at least 3 survivors escaping on average half of the time and killers getting at least a 3k half of the time.
A 2k is either a draw (team vs team) or 2 wins and 2 losses (mmr and the 4x 1v1 method). Stop with this stupid slight of hand.
You want to take the killer win rate from the team vs team comparison and set it against survivor escape rate in a mmr sense. It's an apples to oranges comparison and I'm beyond tired of seeing it parroted constantly.
The reality is most killers are winning (3-4k) far more than they lose (0-1k). A draw is not a loss and no amount of mental gymnastics will make it one.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916343#Comment_3916343
A 60% kill rate is slightly under a 50% win rate. You're confusing kill rates to win rates. If someone had a 25% kill rate, would you say they win 1 out of 4 matches? Of course not. Thats only getting a single kill. In case you're still confused, a 75% kill rate in a match is a 3k.
At 62.5% kill rate, killers would have an even 50% win rate on average. However, they balance around 60%, so it is more like 49%. At the moment survivors have anywhere between and 40% - 48% escape rate on average according to the official stats (48% being SWFs).
Essentially, killers have an intended 49% win rate (60% kill rate), and swfs currently have a 48% escape rate (at high MMR meaning everyone has experience in the game). With 4 survivors being in play, and to keep killers at around a 50% win rate and survivors at a 50% chance to get a 3+ escape match, each survivor would need to have an escape rate of about 38.5% (since there are 4 survivors facing the killer). As an example, if it was 1 v 1, then obviously both sides would want a 50% win rate, but since one side has 4 team members, they each need a reduced escape rate to maintain a 50% balance of both sides.
Long story short, survivors are overperforming IF we wanted to keep killers at a ~50% win rate and survivors at having a ~50% chance of getting a 3+ escape.
Now bear in mind, that's with a 60% kill rate. For killers not at 60%, whether below or above, adjustments should be made.
"You forgot 2Ks.
50% 3K+ is not really the same as a '50% winrate', because it's not just 'win' or 'lose' for killers. There's a third option that takes a slice of the pie.
If you aim for a 50% winrate, killers would be winning far more than they lose, due to 2Ks taking a slice of the remaining %. If you want killers to win as much as they lose, you'd need to split what's left after deducting the 2K rate.
Take Nightlight's stat breakdown for Deathslinger, for example, who's sitting at a 50% killrate. His 3K+ rate is about 41%. But that doesn't mean he loses way more than he wins, because his 0-1K rate is 43%, which means he's way closer to balance than what would be implied by just flatly comparing his 3K+ rate to 50%."
Since i keep seeing this blatently deceptive "math" posted every time it's noticed that killers are overperforming, I'm just going to add this consice explanation that Firellius made in another thread.
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@Waynesl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915922#Comment_3915922
If you all want to win then go play a PVE game your in a competitive asym game that's a 1v4. 55% is to low of a standard to have for killers since it's a 1v4 statically it should be 75% yet y'all are complaining about 60%
If its a competitive game it should be balanced so each side has an equal chance to win. Funny argument from the side that currently enjoys winning more.
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916189#Comment_3916189
So 3 or 4 killers of the almost 40 need nerfs. People only playing thes characters because they feel they need to in order to win, because the game is survivor sided. Which btw is old news
"Old news"
About 5 years old to be exact. All evidence points to the game being killer sided now, both by the devs statements (flawed game design philosophy that has lead directly to the current miserable survivor experience) and available statistics.
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
Im only up voting this cus of that last sentence.
However the game is definitely not killer sided despite the over achieving kill rates. On paper, its survivor sided, its just that making a fumble as survivor could end up costing the game for the rest of the team, leading to these skewed, over inflated stats. S Tiers should and are overperforming simply because their kits are insanely powerful, while lower tier killers also have similar win rates cus of the person playing them (A tiers like Dracula, Artist and Wesker take more skill than lets say Nurse or Blight, since their kits are actually balanced and punishing if used incorrectly)
Over achieving kill rates. Check
One of 4 survivors makes a mistake and costs the game for the rest of the team. Check
S Tiers "SHOULD" overperform and their kits are insanely powerful
Survivor sided game btw!
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915939#Comment_3915939
You forgot 2Ks.
50% 3K+ is not really the same as a '50% winrate', because it's not just 'win' or 'lose' for killers. There's a third option that takes a slice of the pie.
If you aim for a 50% winrate, killers would be winning far more than they lose, due to 2Ks taking a slice of the remaining %. If you want killers to win as much as they lose, you'd need to split what's left after deducting the 2K rate.
Take Nightlight's stat breakdown for Deathslinger, for example, who's sitting at a 50% killrate. His 3K+ rate is about 41%. But that doesn't mean he loses way more than he wins, because his 0-1K rate is 43%, which means he's way closer to balance than what would be implied by just flatly comparing his 3K+ rate to 50%.
I can't count the number of times I've seen the same abomination of math argument to justify the game continuing to be balanced unfairly in killers favor, but thank you for debunking it once again. I should really just save it as a copy/paste at this point…
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@[Deleted User] said:
Survivor is awful right now. You have a 90% chance of running into the most braindead easy to play S tier killer on the roster (Ghoul). The first killer they've released where having your monitor turned on is optional. I actually convinced my friend to play. They haven't played in 3 months. We played 4 games tonight and they promptly uninstalled.
- Are you still friends?
- Will your friend ever accept game recommendations from you again?
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I almost never bring items or offerings in solo queue for multiple reasons:
- If i see everyone else in the lobby with an item, I take nothing as a subtle message to the killer that this isn't some comp swf and maybe just maybe they won't bring in the strongest meta build and iri add ons (this has probably never worked)
- Knowing that 40-50% of my matches will be essentially over in the first 2 minutes depending on map/killer or i will be tunneled out asap with no chance to use whatever I brought. It's slightly less depressing leaving a match with 7k points when you don't lose an item too.
- I find Franklin's/Weave very boring to play against and 4 items is a huge sign to any killer to consider that build.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912959#Comment_3912959
Because nothing has even come to close to stuff like DS, DH, OTR, etc on the survivor end. In fact, somehow those perks are considered bad, and anything weaker than them are considered super bad. On the killer end, you see way more variety than ever before, because people don't know what's good on killer anymore. The devs have literally kept the survivor meta the same for 7-8 years, and the killer meta is constantly changing because every time a new one arrives it gets nerfed.
That's because killers have multiple versions of equally powerful perks that do the same thing (gen regression) while survivors have only had 2 marginally effective anti-tunnel perks for the game's existence. Survivors have had a grand total of 2 strong perks added since Zarina and both were heavily nerfed. Meanwhile just from the top 20 nightlight most used perks there i see Pain Res, Lethal, Nowhere To Hide, Grim Embrace, Friends Till The End, and Deadlock. You frame this as if the devs are "shaking up the meta" when in reality, they're power creeping old killer perks hard while keeping survivor perks the same or worse.
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Weird how as they have added more and more perks, builds have become more and more homogenous. I don't like this direction.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911890#Comment_3911890
it's a free endgame escape perk outside of that will be niche i'll use it because i use boons and i can find fun things to do with that
Did we all just forget the new killer came with a perk that blocks pallets and windows for a full minute during end game? Seems on par as far as "free" goes.
And this still won't work vs half the roster that outright prevents saves during end game hook camping or any killer with mobility.
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Oh another niche perk that may possibly have occasional use for anti-tunneling is immediately demanded to be nerfed into obscurity before release.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
It's a new map entirely. Dead Sands. it's called.
Dead Zones
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909675#Comment_3909675
Except it takes 0 perks to loop. A good looper can extend the tunneling duration no problem by looping well.
Give me tunnelers on 2020 pre-60% deadzone maps and you might have an argument. Going down as a survivor in current maps is hardly a measure of the survivors skill.
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I don't think it needed a nerf. Along with the haste changes it's back to the same 4 slowdown perks every match.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909761#Comment_3909761
Perhaps, but the problem is each and every time this community is asked whether it wants quality matchmaking or faster queues the resounding answer is always queue times.
Their matchmaking system gets one (maybe two) chances for fair-ish trials, but as people wait it widens the acceptable range until as you said it just grabs a player.
Well perhaps given the tendancy of unbalanced matches to snowball to an unwinnable state within the first 3 minutes. And given the prevalence of survivors to not want to go through the motions once a match is in such a state. Might we want to consider that what the players SAY they want, and what their ACTIONS would demonstrate they won't tolerate demonstrate different preferences? Maybe we should allow an extra 30 seconds to get a remotely close backfill candidate to avoid such steamroll matches where possible?
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909624#Comment_3909624
The issue with lobby dodging isn't what it does to queue times, it's the awful effects on matchmaking and the devastating backfills.
Backfill is a separate issue and should have been fixed years ago to pull from accurate mmr range instead of the next available player
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140 ping is rough. me and 2 friends playing on NA got pulled to an EU server earlier today 🙄
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@ChuckingWong said:
Honestly me, just get good and react better next time.
To play Wesker's advocate, you had a high ping icon pop up at the same time you got grabbed. would like to see what that looked like from the killer's perspective though lol
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909589#Comment_3909589
I didn't say that was what you said, I said that is the reason why the change as suggested isnt implemented.
That is also not what a strawman argument is.If the perks were not balanced then BHVR would know about it and would be about to address it.
Ah yes, BHVR, renowned for properly balancing perks over the long life of this game.
You replied to my post, responding to claims I didn't make, nor did anyone else make those claims. That is the definition of a straw man argument.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909297#Comment_3909297
Because this is a VideoGame, not a War. People can run the build they want WITHOUT other players throwing a fit.
When did I say they can't run the build they want? Strawman much?
I simply suggested perks that are so bad they are essentially throwing the match (No Mither, Invocation Perks) or perks that only exist to wait for your teammates to die (Sole Survivor, Left Behind) should be considered for changes. Losing out on the potential of synergizing my perks with solo queue teammates (would be a huge help for solo queue) for the sake of keeping a handful of essentially negative-value perks doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.
When Wake Up was nerfed into oblivion recently, the rationale was to prevent it being used selfishly, even though Sole Survivor and Left Behind are far more guilty of that behavior. I would like to see this logic extended to other perks that are only used for that purpose.
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If there are perks that are so awful / selfish that knowledge about them would drive teammates away, why not change those perks?
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Nerfing niche/meme haste builds when 4 gen slowdowns still stack and are stronger than anything else.
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So any thoughts regarding the inconsistency with every other perk/item/add on that effects the same values stacking? Gen repair speed, healing speed, unhooking, opening gates, totems. Anything effecting these stacks currently. And btw stacking 4 slowdown perks is and always has been way stronger than haste perks.
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"Stop having fun with weird builds! Now go run the same 4 perks as everyone else."
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@PetTheDoggo said:
- killer meta perks don't work
- some killer powers don't work
- blood gens are basically impossible to stop unless survivors have really bad RNG
You can't really regress blood gens as killer and it takes only 3 trips to finish it by one survivor, you are also not really punished when multiple survivors work on same blood gen…
Result is you see basically only Kaneki, Nurse and Blight because those can keep pressure by simply downing survivors fast enough.
But I win against those quite often even as soloQ…
Wow weird, the same killers I only see in normal mode.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908713#Comment_3908713
I don't know why people complain about those, they're quite rare – at most, I guess, you'll get a standard chase build + toolbox with BNP, which is enough to make it feel really quick at the beginning of the game. Very rarely, you might run into a whole hyperfocus/stake out build but those are pretty exceptional.
Or maybe people are just complaining when Survivors do the sensible thing and split up (which can make early gens go really fast). Unfortunately, this event encourages the latter so much, and the actual gen times are low.
But it does mean that lack of BNP aside, I don't see most Survivor builds impacted by the gen change, and not having to sit on an aura-highlighted objective for over a minute is definitely beneficial to not being caught. It's definitely one side that's more negatively impacted, despite the supposed flaws of running around with cans of blood.
My killer games haven't been nearly as stressful as survivor during the event. Neutered gen perks gives me a chance to experiment with some lesser used chase/info perks.
Maybe it's just that after playing 8/10 survivor matches vs the busted new killer anything else feels relaxing 🥲
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908648#Comment_3908648
Most survivors don't run gen builds, because they only make the least interesting part of the game faster. The only non-genrush perks this messes with are like Flashbang, Blast Mine, and Wire Tap. And I guess, like, Aestri's perks, but those are mostly for the memes anyway.
Most survivors are running some combination of anti-tunnel, anti-slug, chase, and info perks.
Killers absolutely need at least a little bit of gen slowdown in their build unless there's a massive skill discrepancy or they're cracked at a high A or S tier killer.
Incidentally, this means I'm still losing most of the time in this mode as survivor because of all of the Ghouls, since you can get great results with them without much effort.
Survivors don't run gen perks / items? This should be news to the killer players i see complaining about "gen rush" builds all the time...
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908564#Comment_3908564
I'm just… stunned really. Stunned that you posted what the Devs actually said, that yes this is intended…
And people are genuinely still so butthurt they can't exploit a glitch anymore that they're downvoting you over it and continuing to argue the glitch should still remain.Because killer players have never flooded the forums and social media being "butthurt" over exploits being fixed? This is the precedent set from previous exploits being fixed or not.
Oni 180 flicks being the most recent example.
Multiple Chucky exploits
Multiple Blight exploits
Wesker turning after grabbing a survivor so he can always get a successful slam
There could be a middle ground between keeping impossible to counter locker flashbangs and making the perk objectively useless compared to just bringing a flashlight.
The current audio of the flashbang drop is comically loud to the point I thought it was dropped way closer to me the first time I heard it.
The angles as shown in previous posts are worse than flashlights and the limitations of being thrown on the ground, limited to 1 charge, and a longer fuse make it not worth bringing in almost any scenario.
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@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
While killers are limited in their choice of killer and perk, survivors are able to use any build they want, and event gen can be completed at a tremendous pace, depending on how it is generated. The matches always end faster than usual, whether it's an escape or an execution, so BP efficiency is also very good.
Survivors have just as many perks tied to gens as killers, so no, thats not true.
And the blood gens are very rng dependant as shown on indoor maps when all the pumps spawn on one floor and all the gens spawn on the other floor.
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@Stibfa said:
Gutting his cancel would completely destroy his skill ceilling and make him useless in any loop. the fun part of his kit is trying to body Block mid loop or land ontop/slide in the survivor, this is only possible because his cancel cooldown being this short... i honestly rather they nerf the distance from his leaps or maybe make the cancel after just his first leap longer
Nah having the best mobility in game plus the easiest first hit is just not going to fly with also having consistent strong anti-loop. His mobility and power recharge would need a hard nerf.
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I don't see what is so hard to understand about why these changes make flashbangs useless. They are now essentially a zero range, single use flashlight, with way tighter timings as you have to drop it earlier and from closer than a flashlight save. In what world is that worth a perk slot over just bringing a flashlight?
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I asked Grok if ai was bad for the planet and it says no so I think we're ok.
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I noticed this
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907505#Comment_3907505
That's just not true for killer. You have to calculate what each survivor is doing. 4 different people to keep track of. You have to see if its worth chasing certain survivors over others, destroying certain resources and waste time or do I follow up in the chase? (If its worth chasing them)
Killers have terrible bugs to deal with too that make or break chase and ultimately can cost you.
Hook one survivor → leave hook → wait 7 seconds -> return to hook → repeat until giant notification ball → hook same survivor → repeat from step 2.
This formula will win you more games as killer than anything you could do on survivor, with no macro strategy involved.
Killer has been absolutely pandered to for several years now. It's quite sad.
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I advocate for them touching it
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I'd love any of the silent hill survivors reworked, they really need it <3
Less emaciated cheryl would be great
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
Sorry when top Killers like TruTalent (Who is against most Killer Nerfs) says Ghoul needs a nerf it REALLY needs a nerf.
This might be the most surprising thing I've read this week
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Had a way easier time playing killer than survivor. No camping and tunneling Kens/Blights sweating like it's a tournament and I'm sure the survivors i got were happy to have an actual fun match. Oh and I was getting 5-6x the bp per match compared to survivor.
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@imabakedpot8o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907753#Comment_3907753
Yes, partly. AI uses lots of resources and is destroying the planet to generate answers you can find using a calculator or the internet. AI will be the death of us :’) But also yes Elon Musk.
Ew
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They would need to prevent having all the gas stations spawn on one floor of indoor maps and all the gens on the other floor...