Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049000#Comment_4049000
I also don't understand why people always try and argue using "top MMR" as a statement, when they have no way to know if they are Top MMR in the first place.
The matchmaking feels like the wild west at times.Comp really. There's a reason that the rules for comp have massive restrictions for survivors outside of like 3 killers.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048792#Comment_4048792
There is a difference between average and below average player who actually plays the game versus an xbox game pass/epic games store Leon Kennedy/Sable Ward. There are players with thousands of hours who are just average and below average, and that's okay. There are also players who play 4 hours a month who are below average. These are the players some of these discussions on balance are catered towards. Huntress does not need 7 hatchets, yet here we are. Nemesis did not need 20% hindered on contamination whip, yet here we are.
The unfortunate fact is that these two demographics are grouped together when talking about balance. If you wanted competitive integrity, you'd completely ignore the players who lack any experience in the game and hope that they actually learn how to play instead of lowering the entire balance of the game down to their level. The rules of chess don't change just because the majority of new players are awful at chess.
I would much rather bring characters who dominate S and A tier down to an appropriate level and expect players who wish to play them at lower MMR levels to improve their skill over the alternative of making them run rampant in high MMR. I don't want any more 1950+ win win-streaks on killer. That is completely ridiculous and is laughably embarrassing to have that be something that is possible in a PvP game.
My point is that you are basically saying that "X thing is broken because top level players can exploit it" and when people point out the stats showing that thing as actually not being that good the answer is "average players drag that down and inflate other ones"
You don't get to do that without also contending with the fact that there are 5 viable killers at the top level. Either:
- You balance the game around top level players
- You balance the game around average level players
It honestly seems like what you are asking for is that the devs balance around average survivors, but around top level killers. Which is quite frankly hella biased.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048814#Comment_4048814
You are literally the first person to bring up ghoul in this thread, no one else did. They did not give the kill rate for any of the killers in these stats. It could be 60%, it could be much higher. When they gave us stats with the kill rates all members of the top 5 had over a 60 percent kill rate (early last year). When we did get it split into both Freddy still had a high kill rate in high MMR and for all we know Sadako and Pig could be just outside the top 5 we were given since they didn't give us the full list. Hell, Vecna had a 66% kill rate in all MMR in those stats and then they went and buffed him. All Conveniently ignored.
On the other side, the only survivors that even really move the needle are four mans in high MMR and they still don't break a 50% escape rate but I see so many people claim these teams are unbeatable, stats prove them wrong. With the current game setup there isn't even a way to nerf them without also hitting much more casual SWF who sit right around expected 40% escape rate.
If you scroll you can clearly see several comments were removed.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048778#Comment_4048778
These stats are from August 15th 2025 to September 25th 2025. Hardly anything to prove your point. It's been about 3 months since then, and there is a ton of nuance with perk and other killer balancing where these stats are essentially meaningless. You are also forgetting that 80% of matches are in average to below average MMR, where killers like Onryo and Freddy dominate.
And the answer i always get when talking about balance is we shouldn't balance for the top tier players because as you say the vast majority of matches are with "average and below average" players, so we need to be balancing around them.
Guess what, you can't have it both ways. If you balance the game around average level players, you must do that, and by definition that means that ghoul and nurse and blight are fine (and in the case of nurse she needs buffs) because they are always much lower in the kill rates than other killers.
If however you want to talk about balancing around top tier players, and that ghoul/nurse/blight are a problem. I would be happy to have that discussion, but then are you ready to deal with the consequences of that and the fact that at those levels we have like 6 killers who are even viable at that level out of the 40+ we have?
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2 things.
- I don't understand what you are trying to show me here because this is maps and we are talking about a specific killer
- If you read i mention nightlight because its the only current data we have (albeit very small and slanted for sure), and then immediately start talking about OFFICIALLY RELEASED STATS from the developers so again, not sure what you are talking about here.
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@ConsAnthroid said:
Everyone knows that aura perks for Killers sucks, because Nurse can abuse them too much.
Current Haywire is literally useless, because Singularity exists…
Why behaviour just don't nerf the perks on the specifically problematic killers and let other ones use it no problem?
Keep 80% treshold of Haywire to just Singularity, Hag and Twins. On other killer this perk should not be as neutered.
Same goes for gen regression perks. ######### killers should have them stronger while strong killers should have them weaker (Blight, Nurse, Spirit).
Aura perks: just cut the duration on Nurse by half, if perk has no set duration then reduce range by 30%.
It is really simple and I don't understand why after 10 years we are still bottlenecked by couple of killer who can abuse a perk while the rest of the roster will have 0 value from it.
It's very simple stuff to program.
Edit: Remember Agitation + Starstruck? Nurse can't use any instadown perks because of this combo - which I don't mind actually.Let me ask you a question here.
If we already don't have killers that are balanced properly with each other (excluding perks) why would add even more variables for them to balance for each killer? It would be far easier to simply make the killers just "balanced" rather than try and change perks to behave differently on different killers and add even more complexity on top of an already complex game.
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@Jay_Whyask said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047827#Comment_4047827
You can't use sub par gameplay as an example of standard play.
That's like saying Hillbilly is a terribly balanced killer because it takes too long to walk from point A to point B, & the chainsaw takes too long to break pallets.
The top clown main Arinad talked about t his alot. Basically the old version of clown the speed up bottles were hard to use and didn't give as big of an impact as the slow bottles so people would often ignore them leading to a bunch of problems with it, so they made them easier to use and buffed them. Then they buffed them too much to the point that the slow bottles were useless and you instead only used slow bottles.
Then they tweaked the numbers slightly so the speedup bottles are a little better than they were, and the slowdown bottles are a little worse than before. Resulting in exactly what BHVR wanted, to make clown a little bit easier to play and give him a slight buff.
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@TicTac said:
To give feedback, to vent, to discuss ideas with others or something else?
Because reddit is a cesspool and impossible to actually have a conversation with anyone because everyone's just farming karma and at least here i can have a real discussion. If you have the "wrong opinion" there people downvote you despite the fact that the purpose of the downvote is to show that the post is "bad" not that you just disagree with the opinion.
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@DeFragment said:
It's the map of god pallets. How is this map left unchanged for so long? There is rarely any mindgames going on there.
Its one of those annoying maps because for some killers its a great map, while for others is completely miserable. In general though the map is horribly designed because its just god pallet after god pallet, and then when they are gone, there's nothing. There's like 1 or 2 windows on the entire map.
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@Terror_Misu said:
I think it's because it really doesn't exist. After this long and everyone on the same page about wanting it, they have no reason not to other than… they are unable. That's my take.
How MMR works has actually been figured out at some point. There are several youtube videos about it and there were ways in the past to get your mmr that have since been patched out. So we know it exists at the very least.
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@SWFruinGames said:
Is it ghostface? Artist? Im tired of rubber banding nurse, tiny pixels blocking the creation of a patrol path of the knight, xeno tail bug.
Please tell me a killer who is least or not affected by bugs.
Maybe Wraith? I don't think i have seen any bugs with him.
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I mean, what is her power really? She can catch up to you a little bit faster after hitting you? And has a few number bumps to some basic things? And then loses the ability to break pallets (vaulting pallets sure aint worth it anymore unless its a god pallet, and even then its probably better to just break it and move on)
Couple that with the fact that body blocking her is EXTREMELY powerful. Someone who isn't infected just comes and body blocks and she can do nothing other than switch out of her head form, infect the new person, then switch back, and by the time she does that the other person is long gone.
Have you done the math on her abilities at all? Like lets look at a basic 4.6 killer like say, trapper, right?
When a survivor gets hit, they gain 14.4 meters of distance on the killer for math purpsoes
Against a trapper:
- 4.6 m/s movement speed
- Has to be within 3.61 meters of a survivor to hit them (while they are running away) with a lunge
- After hitting a survivor, takes 15.5 seconds to catch up to the survivor and land another hit
What does krasue in head form get?
- 4.8 m/s movement speed
- 14.4 m/s max lunge speed (same distance though) which changes the max distance from 3.61 meters to 5.6 meters
- After hitting a survivor using headlong flight it takes 7.35 seconds to catch up to the survivor and land another hit
So, she gets .2 m/s faster, has her lunge distance to land a hit increased by 2 meters, and can end a chase running in a straight line 8 seconds faster than a powerless killer.
What does she trade for that?
- Has to infect you first.
- Spend 1.2 seconds turning into a head
- Gets stunned longer in head form
- Can't fully control her lunge (limited to a 45 degree angle)
- Can't break pallets can vault over them, but its so slow now its almost useless at the majority of pallets.
- Massively weak to body blocks from uninfected survivors (requiring you to spend 2.2 seconds switching back to body, infecting them, then spending another 1.2 seconds switching back to head)
Do i really think that is worth it vs say like? The new myers? Or Pinhead? No
Do i think she was ever as OP as (i can literally end a chase in 8 seconds) Nurse? Hell no.
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@xoreyna said:
I hate to beat a dead horse but if Chaos Shuffle has done anything, it continues to prove that the Hag is in a horrible state right now.
I know this is something the community brings up every now and then (I've even brought it up a couple times) but until the devs finally address her or acknowledge how bad she currently is, it’s worth continuing to talk about. She’s in desperate need of a proper update. She’s been in the game for 8-9 years now and she’s received so few meaningful updates. Outside of the lightburn change and the music changes, she's only gotten number tweaks. But that's not enough for a killer who's been in the game as long as she has.
She's incredibly outdated and Chaos Shuffle just further proves that because most of her add-ons are almost completely useless and some do next to nothing. Why would anyone want to use the add-ons for the trigger range or trigger duration when they're not worth bringing and the setting speed and teleport range add-ons are a million times more useful? If I'm not mistaken, there are only like two add-ons maybe that are not in rotation for her in this game mode but what's the point when she can get Waterlogged Shoe? It's an iri add-on of hers, but it's quite literally detrimental to her kit because it makes her an M1 killer with no power. At least her traps can hinder survivors, I guess? Or she can get Scarred Hand, which again, makes her an M1 killer with no power. But her phantasms have collision… which is… niche. And terrible.
Having niche add-ons wouldn't even be so bad if almost all of Hag's add-ons weren't absolutely garbage and useless. Because there's also Grandma's Heart and Disfigured Ear. More completely useless add-ons that don't benefit her kit in anyway. And mind you, these are all high rarity, purple add-ons. Her only good high rarity add-ons are Rusty Shackles (purple) and Mint Rag (iri), and outside of that, the only add-ons worth using are the setting speed and teleport range ones. And that's not even addressing the fact that half of her add-ons don't synergize at all with the other half, and one can make the other completely defunct, and it's not worth the gamble at all to play her in this game mode when I can end up with virtually no power and no perks.
She is loooong overdue for a meaningful update to her kit and add-on pass and I hope someday the devs will finally listen and bring her some well-deserved changes.
She needs a rework really, but if they did nothing else, i don't think she deserves the 110 killer status anymore, give her a slight bonus to lunge range (think like wraith) when teleporting to a trap, so if you do it immediately you can actually get a hit, then make it so her power can't be used near hooked survivors and when you hook a survivor it makes all the nearby traps disappear.
Basically, just give her a few nice buffs, and make it so her power can't be used to camp while not actually camping.
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@Chocobo said:
I love playing against this killer but I haven't seen her for more than a month now. What happened?
Because a bunch of streamers hopped onto the "She's more OP than nurse" bandwagon even though she wasn't (like really? More OP than nurse, come on now) and they nerfed her a few times so now she's below average and gets massively countered by a good SWF that knows how to body block with the person who isn't infected, and then she literally just does nothing.
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@random1543 said:
I'm getting a fair few killer that play like they are newer which is really rare to see in my normal matches.
Stuff like swinging early and missing hits, getting fov teched over and over and just macro plays that baffle me vs 1v4 I see this once in a blue moon.
teammates are also bad sometimes but that feels that same as normal 1v4 in solo q 😂only thing I can think of is it uses different or looser MMR because people cant pick their builds, has it been confirmed anywhere?
I believe it works like the PTB does for content. At some point before the event, they snapshot your MMR, and then set your MMR for the event to that amount. Then playing in the event does not actually change your mmr whether you win or lose, so if you started at say, 1500 mmr, you'll stay that for the duration of the event.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4045769#Comment_4045769
This says to me that the base gen speed is too fast, when survivors dont have anything to boost gen speeds and killers dont have anything to slow gens down its pretty much all on basekit terms, so if killers still feel they need to tunnel it says a lot about the need for slowing down gens.
It is. In general i have always thought they need to do with gen defense perks what they often do with killer addons. Buff the basekit, nerf the addons. In this case, buff the basekit, nerf the perks.
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Higurashi: When they cry
Could be another legion style killer where its multiple people with different skins but the same power.
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@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4045675#Comment_4045675
Except they do that even in normal matches. So your logic doesn't apply. What's another reason?
Sure, people who are trying to win are going to use the strategies they think are best for doing that. But in my experience playing survivor not EVERY game is tunneling. I was responding to OP stating that every single game they have played has tunneling, providing an example as to why they might be seeing an increase in the amount of tunneling happening.
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@sethrollins said:
I played 10 games and in every game every killer just tryhard ultratunneling beasts and survivors without perks can do nothing against it.
What about to give survivors DS in this mode?
This comes up every time this mode comes out.
The game is balanced around killers taking at least 1-2 gen defense perks. If you play a mode that actively doesn't let you do that, the killers need to do something to even up the odds.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044656#Comment_4044656
Quite rich to say this as the person who said that the AFC is busted, because you chased yourself around shack long enough to trigger it without realizing that the Survivor who you chased was already gone 🤡
Ah yes, because if i don't play absolutely perfectly every time i must be trash. I'm guessing you have never made mistakes before and have a 100% win rate? I could probably dig in your 17k post history and i'm sure i'd find you saying something pretty stupid. Also i had to post that, what a year ago? 2 Years? What the hell are you doing with your life where you are digging through years worth of someones post history to try and score fake internet points? Pretty sad if you ask me.
And then on top of that post it in a thread that has nothing to do with what you are even digging for.
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@Vtech said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043876#Comment_4043876
I know that list is clowning with those rankings.
Its the official data. Which means either:
- The data is correct and you just don't want to believe it
- The data is not correct and BHVR is incompetent
- The data is not correct and BHVR is lying to you.
I suspect its probably accurate, as this is looking at the entire player base. And the reality is, most players, are really really really bad at this game.
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@AlreadyTracer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/462379/so-still-no-ghoul-changes-huh
Ken is fine, all of you are just showing how horrid you are at looping. If you struggle against this killer it's literally just because you were crutching on that W key against everyone else
It always does make me wonder what type of killer these types of players want to go against.
- They complain about the macro gameplay map control killers like skull merchant and knight and sadako (who then gets nerfed and reworked 10 times).
- They complain about anti-loop killers and ask BHVR to stop making those.
- They complain about the anti-shift+w killers like ghoul and blight and complain about those.
- They complain about stealth and hit and run style killers like wraith.
Like legit, at this point what type of killer do you want to play against? Because at this point it seems like you don't want to play against any of them.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043889#Comment_4043889
I'm not disputing official stats as in the picture you showed, just the part in comment where nightlight is used as they are fan made and can be manipulated by the people who upload (just not uploaded matches that are lost or won)
He is still top 5 in pick rate meaning he is on the higher end of killer that are picked being tied for second/ third out of 41 is not a low pick rate. regardless I don't think if a killer is unfun to verse should be ignored just because his pick rate is low.1 in 25 games.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043876#Comment_4043876
Uh there are almost 40 killers in the game, if ghoul is top 5 and he has just came out this year that is a pretty high pick rate if he is beating 35 other killers. all the other killers on this list bar spring trap are older killers.
edit; you mention nightlight, nightlight stats are useless and are fan made. I could go and only upload my loses to nightlight and just withhold all the wins.I literally linked you the OFFICIAL stats. And yeah, he's top 5, but again, do the math. With a 4% pick rate (official stats remember, nightlight actually says he's higher). That means you see him in 1 out of every 25 games. An average game of DBD lasting about 8-10 minutes, even on the low end that means you see Ghoul about once every 3.5 hours of gameplay. Which is pretty significant.
Also if you actually read my post (which it is obvious you didn't) i told you there are 41 killers, not "almost 40"
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043851#Comment_4043851
Stop the cap We tried to fix the tunneling which in your own is universally hated but that got shut down, scrapped and made pallet density scarce by entitled Killer players afraid they can't tunnel someone out at 5 gens.
Furthermore Ghoul has a very high pick rate due to how easy of an S-tier he is you can't go without a session of having to dredge through a bunch of matches going against ghoul as Survivor. It's no over exaggeration when people say Ghoul is the most hated Killer for a good reason.
We don't know that it was "completely scrapped" they tried multiple times with it and failed because they were going about it the wrong way. But nowhere have they confirmed that they just "aren't doing it anymore" as far as we know its still happening while they revisit the implementation of the changes for a later PTB.
Secondly, Ghoul does not have a "very high pick rate" that is massively higher than other killers. If you go by nightlight.gg, ghoul has about a 5% pick rate. That means you see ghoul in 1 out of every 20 games. While that is unofficial data, the last time BHVR released official stats, yes the data showed Ghoul's pick rate at about 5% for japan, and 4% for the world. So going by official stats across all players, its actually 1 in 25 games
There are currently 41 killers in the game. So if there were an even distribution of killer players on every killer, you'd see an average pick rate of about 2.5%. So You see ghoul a little under twice as often as you would assuming a purely even distribution. Which again, in the grand scheme of (1 out of every 25 games) that ain't it chief.
And again, looking at nightlight.gg Ghoul has a kill rate of about 49.84%, pretty much dead even at 50% (which actually if you look at the devs stated goal of 60% kill rate is quite bad, but that is a different discussion), and the last official stats didn't give us kill rates, but put ghoul at EIGHT in terms of lethal killers, with the top 10 being:
- Lich
- Freddy
- Sadako
- Dredge
- Pig
- Twins
- Blight
- Ghoul
- Skull Merchant
- Oni
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043430#Comment_4043430
They shouldn't be looking at data alone? When 99% of the user base hates going against the killer they should take that into consideration
But that by definition would be data.
There is a difference between something being unfun and something being balanced. And given the state of the game, they have bigger things to go after like tunneling which are UNIVERSALLY hated, vs a killer that people see in 5% of their games.
Also i highly doubt "99% of the user base hates going against the ghoul" Do YOU have some kind of data to back that up?
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042747#Comment_4042747
Admittedly I have not played many competitive games and my examples are from games I haven't played in years but I do think what you are describing is not limited to dbd. I got complaints from opponents for using a specific weapon in CS and at the time I played many players viewed using an Autosniper as dishonorable.
Another example could be the spawn killing in R6S as far as I know many people found it frustrating, but I wasn't very involved with that community so harder to judge.
The point i'm making is not that those players don't exist in those games. They do, but those players are often made fun of by the community at large and told to "git gud". But for some reason the majority of players in DBD are like this.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043257#Comment_4043257
Topic is why hasn't the ghoul been changed even tho the community clearly thinks he needs to be.
I am voicing my outrage with lack of consideration to complaints against ghoul.
Edit : It is really frustrating to have a killer like the ghoul in the game for so long, I primarily play soloq and he has just been miserable to verse since he has come out, posted this out of frustration because of lack of changes too the ghoul even tho its clear imo he needs changes., edited reply because I cant post :/You ever stop to think that maybe the devs have data that shows that ghoul is fine?
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@epi said:
Anyone know how a Myers moried me when I've only been on hook once and the other 3 survivors are in dying state on the ground?
I was injured when he killed me.his perks: play with your food, grim embrace, save the best for last and pain reso.
add ons: hair brush and fragrant tuff of hair
offering: mistle toeWithout some kind of screenshot or video, its likely that you were mistaken and you had already been hooked twice, maybe you got unhooked right as you entered stage 2 and didn't realize it? Did you use shoulder the burden maybe?
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042575#Comment_4042575
I think he doeesnt need anything because he can catch up fast especialy after grab where you will be enraged and have 3 leaps which two are with slide and that vault well before it could hinder you every time (and it didnt kidnap tech) survivor could vault shack while goul vaulted enraged behind him and if that survivor huged the shack and didnt run wide (like against ranged killer) he made it back to the shack window in time, so in short his vault is just busted now devs fixed kidap tech but now it gives constantly 50% hinder while ghoul is vaulting which is not needed and shouldnt happen.
But he's already just a worse blight at this point. His power isn't great at most loops, like blight he is good between loops. Difference is a good blight can actually use their power at loops if they know how to curve properly.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042797#Comment_4042797
Thing is in Rust, some servers does not allow offline-raiding, so that point is only semi-valid.
As for DotA/League and those kinds of games, if it is truly lost, you have a surrender vote option, if your team agrees. That way you don't have to sit through an hour-long game if you know your odds are highly stacked against you.
While I have never played Arc Raiders myself, I don't see this problem being any different from a game like Rust. The general idea is to trust no one, unless you know their intentions.
What this translates to in DBD terms would be something different.
Let's say for the Rust-dilemma, that you have a custom lobby with a game-rule in place, where if you try to tunnel someone out, you would be automatically disconnected, and locked out of the killer role until the lobby leader gives you permission again.
For the DotA/League dilemma, this could easily be implemented into DBD with a surrender vote function (would count as a loss) instead of surrender = DC (with penalties).
And as for the Arc Raiders dilemma, just assume that the opposite side will play in a default manner, unless you take the initiative yourself to just goof off or doing something unexpected.
And lastly, would YOU enjoy being bled out by the killer while they are BM'ing you for 4 minutes? If no, then you'd understand how other players feel about it as well, and why YOU shouldn't do it as a killer.
Those would be custom servers in rust, which DBD has custom matches. If you want to go by that logic. In the default gameplay experience (I.E. official servers) you can get offlined.
DotA does not have a surrender option at all. it is not possible, you MUST stick it out the entire match. -
@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042797#Comment_4042797
All them games you described do not have a power dynamic in the roles like dbd has.
The killer role in dbd there is never a situation where you literally cannot do anything, not talking about "oh I cant catch these survivors" I mean things like hooked survivors cannot do anything but wave there arms outside of perks, slugging survivors cannot do anything expect crawl around on the ground outside of perks.
the killer can never be put in a spot where they literally cannot do anything so comparing it to games like you mentioned make no sense as both sides can do what you describe for other games.
oh you got raided offline in rust. you can raid someone as well.
someone backstabbed you in Arc. you can backstab someone as well.
Survivors cannot slug the killer for 4 mins (nor should they be able too)
all them games also have comms which is lacking in dbd.Thats not true though. You get offlined in Rust by a 10 person clan, you aren't ever going to deal with that, you are just going to be reset until wipe day. You get backstabbed in arc, you are just dead, there's no coming back from that.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042747#Comment_4042747
There is no other game i have ever played where i am supposed to "think about how my opponent emotionally feels about how i'm playing and adjust my playstyle to be 'nicer'"
This conversation is constant because the emotional response to this game is higher. Other pvps, like shooters and fighting games, have more balanced opponents. Skill levels might be different, but the goals and abilities are roughly the same. If a decent killer or good survivor team is pitted against a lacking opponent, they automatically control the feel of the match, and can potentially hold the game hostage to make the other miserable. I never experienced anything remotely like this when I was playing shooters, nor did I see in-game actions that show how unhappy someone is, like pallet slamming and AFKing under hook. I don't even remember DCing being a thing in those games. I've also never seen in-game BMing anything like this one. If you get tbagged in CoD it's over pretty fast. You can get humped for four minutes in this game, and then get graphically murdered afterwards. Which brings up the narrative difference. A psychopath torturing and murdering innocent people feels different than two people in a war shooting each other. It's really not comparable to the average pvp.
Thats my point though WHY!? What makes DBD so special that someone can't sit for 4 minutes on the ground so they can die?
- How is that compared to say a game like Rust you spend hours upon hours doing stuff, and then get offline raided by a clan.
- Or a game like DotA where your teammate is feeding their carry and you are stuck in a completely unwinnable game for the next hour because something your teammate did?
- Or a game like Arc Raiders where someone tricks you into thinking they are friendly and then shoots you in the back?
Why does THIS community have such an emotional response to an opponent in a video game that spending a couple of minutes dealing with something unfun is like the end of the world to them.
You say its because they are more balanced, but like. Are they? Have you seen the win rate for the top heroes in DotA they can often have far higher win rates than a killer in DBD?
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042772#Comment_4042772
All I have said is that tunneling is not necessary to win, and that tunneling is too strong in its current state. And I'll also say that telling Survivors to "get gud so you don't get tunneled" is also lacking empathy. Killers seem to think tunneling is fine because it's "the most efficient/optimal way to play." But let's flip the card over. Imagine that Survivors can cooperate on one generator, and the number of gens that pop would be equivalent to the number of Survivors on that one gen. Example: three Survivors on that one gen = three gens pop. That would be incredibly busted, wouldn't it? And yet for Survivors, that would be the most efficient way to play. Survivors would tell Killers, "Just get gud so they can't work on the same gen." Would Killers be okay with that? What chance would the Killer have of winning at that point? That's exactly the same kind of effect that tunneling has on Survivors. So how anyone can be okay with that is beyond me.
But that is precisely the point i have been making. You say that tunneling is not "necessary to win" i agree with that. You also state that "tunneling is too strong"
Ok then, fine, its took strong, and should be nerfed or changed and its clear the devs are doing that.
Now answer to me. If my goal is to win the game, why would i not tunnel every single time? If it is strategically the best strategy for me to use to optimize my chances of winning the game why would i not do it? Now you claim its because "i should have empathy" but that is EXACTLY MY POINT. Why is it that the DBD community and the game in general for some reason is the only multiplayer game where the majority of the player base thinks that you should intentionally not use the best strategy to win the game because its "not nice" or "mean" No other game is like that. There are sometimes people who think that yes, but they are the small minority. But in DBD for some reason everyone loses all sense and decides that we suddenly need to "think of the children" and "be nice" when playing.
My question is. Why?
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042765#Comment_4042765
Them asking you to misplay is not my point. My point is that such a claim can be both unrealistic and yet still founded simultaneously. They're lamenting what led to their defeat, and misdirecting it at you instead of directing it properly at the strategies employed. And even then, just disliking an aspect of the game alone isn't enough to warrant it being changed unless the benefits are universal. The moment they clash with another player's role, deeper balance considerations become necessary.
But to the end user, they just see "thing I don't like gets ignored, other players continue to utilize it" without any of the context around things like necessity. They don't think about "is it the objectively correct play?" and instead focus on "People keep winning because they do x." That type of reductionism is what I'm talking about when trying to convey empathy for one's opponent, its about realistically rating logical and emotional responses as if you were the one thinking them.
But that is precisely MY point. There is no other online game i have ever played where players have this attitude at a large scale. Like sure, you play a fighting game, sometimes you run into someone who gets mad because "throws are cheap" or something. But its not a large amount of players, they are usually a small minority and get laughed at by the community. Like for example players like Low tier God if you know him in Street Fighter. He is like this, and ragequits all the time and he's just a person the community makes fun of.
But in DBD its different, that majority of this community IS like this and you are part of the minority if you are just playing to win. There is no other community that is like this one and that is the part that perplexes me.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042758#Comment_4042758
Oh I know this community is not the pinnacle of sportsmanship, just that its what's supposed to be there. Sportsmanship as a concept was never necessary to competition, but it improves the experience for both sides when things like mutual respect are observed.
Sportsmanship is like, after i win i say "ggwp" or shake my opponents hand.Thats a small part of it, but sportsmanship in a more pure form would be closer to not throwing sand in someone's eyes during a duel. As a concept, its supposed to be about allowing competition to be as fair and equitable as possible, as the focus is generally more on improvement (self, rivalry, etc) than the outcome of the competition. Outcome focus tends to overshadow those concepts with "whatever it takes to win," which is why its equal parts understandable-yet-undesirable under those circumstances. Handshakes after competitions aren't supposed to be just compulsory, they're supposed to be an acceptance of the outcome.
The attitude of players of this game is that for some strange reason if i'm playing a football game and i score 3 times in a row, i need to let my opponent score a couple of times too so they don't feel sad about losing.Thats how many people think, sure, but to add to that analogy, players can be upset that a flag wasn't called at a crucial moment, the other team won with a dangerous play that could have seriously injured one or more players, or the dreaded "being held back by teammates." Scenarios more difficult to accept that are still within reason, but require much more personal temperament to not dwell on. Its up to the game's design to minimize those potential grey areas while its up to the players to better curate their emotions in response to the match.
That's an incorrect comparison. Because the other team won because a flag wasn't called is based on the RULES of the game. In our case the developers. In the DBD example, that would be due to like, a bug happening or something. Like, if a rock spawns that survivors can get through and not the killer. If the survivors use it is it "technically" cheating? Maybe? But like, i'm not going to be mad them for using it, its there.
Tunneling or slugging isn't some "bug" or "dangerous play that maybe is against the rules sometimes and its up to the refs to decide" Tunneling and slugging are just fundamental parts of the game.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042752#Comment_4042752
You came into a topic about increasing empathy for one's opponent with a loaded us vs them argument, and you don't seem to be understanding the hypocrisy in your stance. They're not claiming you should purposely misplay in order to be nice to your opponent, in fact thats the exact point they seem to be trying to drive home. If you understand that as a concept, why jump into the topic trying to make it one side's fault specifically? Reminder, this was the comment that probably got you those responses:
I think the bigger problem is that some players, mostly on the Killer side, take the game too seriously, and feel that anything less than a 100% win rate is unacceptable.It takes a universal issue that crosses roles, and tries to paint it specifically as being instigated by one side while minimizing the prevalence of it on the other. One of the most misleading things about the survivor role as a survivor is that most survivors do not play the same as any one of us, and we have no idea what they're doing when not being told in some way. I can assure you that with a prevalence of 4 to 1 in a given match, the liklihood of that mentality applying to a survivor is much higher than it is a killer, even if the tactics and methods employed are different. Thats not a point worth dwelling on though, as we can only adjust our own behavior, so the important takeaway is to just be mindful on when you are unintentionally giving that impression to your opponent. I believe that was likely the intention of the examples, outlining that its not worth getting upset at someone for playing to win when its something we all do.
But they are asking me to misplay, thats the point.
Take the example of street fighter. What if throwing my opponent 10 times in a row is strategically the best sequence of moves for me to do to win the game. Why should i "care" that my opponent thinks that "throwing is cheap".
And, if lets say for a second, that that move actually is like super OP, and i'm trying to win the game, wouldn't i be a fool for not using the OP move over and over again to try and win the game? At that point it would be up to the developers to nerf said move that is overpowered. But why do the players care that i'm using it.
Like, most people here don't like tunneling for example. I personally think tunneling is bad for the game, and it needs to go. The developers also obviously think that and are trying to do something about, although personally i think their strategy at doing so is wrong but that is a different discussion.
Anyway, the point is, if tunneling is so broken, and i'm trying to play to win the game and that is what i care about, why should i suddenly "misplay" and NOT tunnel just because its "mean" or "boring". You are asking to me to not play a strategy that will give me statistically the best chances for winning the game, simply because you don't like it.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042751#Comment_4042751
I think there is some slight merit to the argument concerning sportsmanship, but thats a concept this community just doesn't gel with for multiple reasons. Personally I would rather a rough win vs a cake walk, so long as the rough part isn't due to design flaws. The desire to win and the desire to have a compelling match should be pretty close to one another, even if one or the other overshadows a bit in a given person's mindset.
That said, its more on the game to limit extremes and have proper matchmaking to foster that environment. We can only be responsible for ourselves in that regard, so it boils down to giving your best while anticipating the worst. The rest falls within the limitations of the game's structure which sadly fosters these types of mentalities the worse people think of their opponents.
Its not sportsmanship. The attitude off this community is different.
Sportsmanship is like, after i win i say "ggwp" or shake my opponents hand.
The attitude of players of this game is that for some strange reason if i'm playing a football game and i score 3 times in a row, i need to let my opponent score a couple of times too so they don't feel sad about losing.
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@TheVarietyKiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042747#Comment_4042747
that is a good point.
I feel like the difference is the DBD matches are longer. You get zoned out by a zoner in a fighting game, at least it’ll last 3 minutes at most.But going against a bully squad? If you play well enough, it can take 10 minutes. That feels worse, leading to a larger reaction
I mean, its not just about length. There are plenty of examples of games i can give you that can last an hour plus where you basically are dead lost at minute 5. DotA, LoL etc are all games where this can occur and people don't suddenly "expect their opponent to just be nice and stop killing them so much"
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@TheArbiter said:
Bring lethal pursuer and without the offering survivors still spawn spread out, I thought this was changed?
I have a had a thread open about it since July of last year where a mod responded and asked for stuff, i update it every patch when i encounter the issue and at this point they are ignoring it completely. The silence has been deafening:
@Reinami said:
I suggest as killer you try running lethal persuer. Most games now, (with all 5 of us running bloodpoint offerings, so no offerings changing it are in play) survivors just spawn like they used to. I don't think it is actually working right.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042616#Comment_4042616
They want to win, so they do everything in their power to make the other side miserable, and they don't care how their opponents feel. All they care about is winning.
Its a game, why should i not play to win? Why do i need to "be nice" why do you expect me to not take my opponents queen for free when they hang it in chess?
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@TheVarietyKiller said:
I have seen that this game has an issue with players having a lack of sympathy towards the other roles.
For example, if a Killer complains about the game being survivor sided and bully squads and Gen rushing, they get so many unsympathetic comments about how they need to get good. Survivors complain about killers tunneling, slugging and running full slowdown, killers will immediately say they have to (which they kinda do need to do, but that’s besides the point.)
I feel that this comes from ignorance. My suggestion? Go play the other role for a few hours.
It lets you see how bad it is to be tunnelled or slugged at five gens by a Myers (true story, happened one time to me and my friends). Survivors will see how miserable it is to face a bully squad, have two gens pop by the first hook or get t-bagged at the exit gate.While thats true that people should play both sides, i still am always perplexed by the attitude of players of this game.
There is no other game i have ever played where i am supposed to "think about how my opponent emotionally feels about how i'm playing and adjust my playstyle to be 'nicer'"
If i'm playing street fighter, and i'm playing guile, and my opponent is zangief, you can bet i'm going to try and win by throwing 100+ fireballs while they try to get close to me. I'm not going to "empathize with my opponent about how boring that is and make the choice to NOT throw a fireball because that would be 'too mean'" Nor am i going to be the zangief player and expect my opponent to stop throwing fireballs. Nor am i going to get in close with him and start a throw loop and decide "maybe i'll just throw them twice instead of keep doing it because its mean"
It is very confusing to me that for some reason in this game and this game only i have to "think about my opponent and be nice"
Like, am i supposed to just play chess and see my opponent hung their queen and think "ah that would be too mean to take their queen for free, i'll be nice and not do that"
If a playstyle is inherently unfun for boring to play against, it is not up to the players to not play the style for fear of upsetting their opponents. It is on the developers of the game for allowing said style of play to exist, and perhaps, as in my street fighter example, it is actually designed intentionally to allow for that style of play, that could just be the answer. But you would never cry to the other player about it just because they did something "boring"
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041113#Comment_4041113
While I mostly agree, there are restrictions on killers as well, are there not? Not as many IIRC, but that would make sense due to the 1v4 nature and a lack of cross player synergies or necessity to offset shared agency. Feels more like a focus on individual aspects rather than overall roles, which could then mean that there are more broken things on survivor than killer, but I don't know if it's quite that simple. That said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040801#Comment_4040801
I just don't agree with using statistics as some type of "silver bullet" in these types of discussions when they are incomplete data. Things like
You are winning 60% of the time even against swf from mid to high mmr GLOBALLY.mix personal and overall scale in the same statement.
Youin this case would either have to apply toall players who are ever playing the killer role, specifically for those matchesif wanting to stack it withglobalstats, as it would be a different pool from the individual whos data you do not have. After all, the infamous killstreaks from killers like blight far exceed 60%, meaning that they have zero influence on another killer player's statistics nor adhere to the limitations of the aforementioned 60% average. Simply put, its a loaded statement meant to invalidate someone's experiences, which is more arguing than discussing.Overall, I don't agree with statements regarding comparing roles to have any permanence in regards to "The Heirarchy" due to how much concepts like skill, tactics, game sense, etc influence outcomes. We have more agency than that in any role, even if that agency is sometimes limited at times. People can certainly have their opinions on which are easier or harder than others, or even which the game's current state favors at any given moment. It sways a lot more than people seem to realize, with even the pallet density issues causing overall balance to swing back and forth as they kept screwing it up. But the most important thing is to not catastrophize extremes as absolutes, only considerations when focusing on such topics or their influence on the rest of the game.
There are restrictions on killer, but those restrictions are usually not related to power, and also are based on tier lists for the killer. For example, nurse is gonna have some restrictions yeah, but like, ghost face hardly has any, and you play on his best map.
The restrictions on killer are usually around making the game more fun to watch. For example prior to myers rework, you couldn't use tombstone. That wasn't necessarily because tombstone was OP in comp level play, but its boring, everyone just runs to a locker and then either get grabbed or nothing happens. The survivors probably win anyway, and the game is boring.
The restrictions on survivors are much more significant, only 1 perk copy per team for example. If it wasn't all 4 survivors would probably run the same 6 perks.
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040145#Comment_4040145
"Standart games only, low stakes matches excluded"
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/UDKAYZBTQEBC/smartselect-20251228-105010-brave.jpg
You are winning 60% of the time even against swf from mid to high mmr GLOBALLY.
Is this just denial?, like, im so confused where you get this from, i see no links or evidence anywhere where you would do such a claim.
"At high mmr, the game is survivor sided"
WHERE!??.
Comp play kinda proves it. There are massive restrictions on the survivors and usually (outside of nurse/blight) the killers are heavily favored by playing on their best map, or allowing certain perk combinations that make those killers much stronger.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040348#Comment_4040348
Just weird that they chose characters that we've never seen over the age of 16 when there was a plethora of other options.
Netflix gets what netflix wants. They probably are the more popular characters. I'm not sure as i've never watched stranger things or gotten into any of the stuff about it. Given that they already lost the ST license for demo a while back they probably want to make super sure netflix is happy this time around.
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@BigKingWoof said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040146#Comment_4040146
There's nothing I can do when I"m on the ground. You killer mains can hit the survivors out of the gate, but you just aren't emotionally stable enough to so much as look at them.
You can do plenty on the ground, you can crawl around and look for a teammate to pick you up and get you back into the game. If all 4 are slugged you can just DC at this point so nothing to worry about there.
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@BigKingWoof said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039993#Comment_4039993
Buddy…why are you letting them tbag you at the gate for 2 minutes? That's a problem you're making for yourself. HIT. THEM. OUT.
I seriously need to understand something. Why are killer so thin skinned? It's tbagging. It happens in every pvp game, but dbd is the only game where tbagging is seen as such a detriment to someone's mental health? For god sake, read what you said "Bleeding the killer of his sanity". If such a mundane thing is THAT harmful to you, maybe pvp games aren't for you. You all make tbagging out to be the worst crime imaginable. It's pretty pathetic.Why are you mad about the killer bleeding you out on the ground for 4 minutes?
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@jedimaster505 said:
the game is heavily killer sided according to science and objectivity. why then the killers crying so much about it being survivor sided? let me tell you...
- their MMR is inflated
first thing which happens is a new killer curb stomps their opponent when playing at their true MMR because the game balance holds killers hands. then their MMR skyrockets and who do they go against? primarily cheaters, sweaty swfs and the best solo Q vets Dbd has to offer. then their win streak is broken and they post a video demanding survivor nerfs. like yeah, when your opponent is primarily the sweatiest upper skill bracket with a bunch of subtle cheaters in the mix, that's gonna feel survivor sided. but you're ignoring the huge percentage of solo Q players that you effortlessly massacred on auto pilot to get to that point.
2. entitlement
since killer is so easy they get used to getting 3-4k almost every match so they don't feel like they're "winning" unless they get a 4k every game. even though 2k is a perfectly balanced draw, in many killer mains eyes they see that as a loss because you can literally just meme around and get a 2k on auto pilot with even the low tier killers so it never really feels earned. they see their idols like momo and otz and true talent getting huge killer win streaks and they think they're a failure if they only get a balanced result like 50% kill rate avg. to be honest you kinda are since killer role is easy mode in 2025
3. killer main politics
I watched a recent dev live stream on YouTube and a dev said to type K, S, or B in chat to see if you're a killer main, survivor main or hybrid. overwhelming the chat was flooded with K's. there were hardly any S's and B's.
this didn't surprise me. I've always noticed how much louder killer mains are on social media. there's a killer main culture where they learned to cry very very loud on social media. the moment a sensible balance change is implemented by the devs, social media is inundated with an angry mob of killer mains posting doom videos about how they're quitting dbd.
so this scares BHVR who then reverts the changes until they are a joke (cough cough...anti tunneling, slugging and camping). survivor mains complain just not nearly as loud and the most popular streamers tend to be killer mains , like otz and true talent who are basically the mascots of dbd community. and since BHVR wants to be able to say they "listen" to feedback, game design choices get largely dictated by subjective politics instead of objectivity. cause what they're largely hearing is the noise of all those K's in the live stream chat.
more examples, Reddit killer mains have a dedicated Dead by daylight killers subreddit and survivor mains have no such equivalent. they're just not nearly as coordinated in their digital outcry. or Steam reviews, there are far more killer mains threatening to uninstall if anti tunnel changes are implemented.
4. survivor mains have learned to adapt, killer mains are stuck in their ways
survivors are always adapting to new killers added to the game, so we're used to learning new things and dealing with adversity, especially the solo Q vets. killer mains are set in their ways and not accustomed to adversity, so any sensible balance change that would make the game fair is perceived as BHVR ruining the game for killers. God forbid blight and his crutch slowdown perks be nerfed...we can't be letting momo lose his nearly 2k win streak now can we. that would be far too upsetting for all the wannabe momo blights that think they're actually good.
lastly if you think about killer mains, a lot of them play a bunch of different killers and expect to perform well on all of them. so for example they put like 500 hrs into killer role but that experience is spread across 10 different killers, which means they only have an average of 50 hrs of experience on any given killer, or maybe 100 on their favorite killer. so if they go up against survivors with 500 hrs dedicated to survivor role, the survivor actually has 5-10 times the experience in their specialty.
there you have it, the hard truth about why killer mains think a heavily killer sided game is survivor sided
Its MMR based with RNG playing a heavy factor.
- At low MMR, the game is very killer sided
- At average MMR, the game is pretty balanced, but RNG can make most matches seem like a blowout one way or the other through crazy tiles that spawn for survivors, or deadzones, or really good 3 gen spawns etc.
- At high mmr, the game is very survivor sided.
However, the RNG in this game is so intense, you could have a low MMR game that is massively survivor sided with a ton of crazy setups (although its less of a problem because the survivors won't know how to use them very well) and similarly have massive deadzones at high mmr leaving the survivors with basically nothing to defend themsevles and creating a big blowout for the killer.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039119#Comment_4039119
I've seen people say it before, but I just don't see the logic.
Setting up takes time, and if the survivors run towards you straight away, you don't have that time. Setting up also means you're effectively choosing a few generators to not defend, because your web can't be that big, but Corrupt pushes survivors away from doing those gens first.
I know people consider Corrupt a core perk on Trapper and Hag but I've never understood why unless they're not setting up, like I described above.
While i don't typically play those killers, i'm going to listen to the experts for those and listen to what otz who is a trapper main would said about it.
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@jesterkind said:
This does get discussed from time to time, and it generally is pretty popular as an idea.
Personally, though, I'm against it, because it isn't an equal benefit for all killers and some killers would be locked out of certain playstyles by not being able to opt-out of Corrupt.
Trapper and Hag, for example, would be at a detriment if they want to spend time setting up. Not only are the survivors running directly into their web before it's done, but they're also setting up that web away from the pristine, untouched generators that Corrupt blocks at the start of the match.
It's fine for them if they only want to put down one or two traps then get into a chase, but the choice for which playstyle to use would be taken away here.Myers and Ghostface, too, can benefit from knowing that the survivors are very likely to be in static positions across the map, to get some good early stalk progress in. Again, it's not just a detriment because they can definitely benefit from Corrupt too, but it takes choice away from them too.
There's definitely room to help killers out in the early game (though what BHVR's already done in this regard is genuinely really impactful), but I don't personally think this is the way to go.
I think you have that backwards for the trap killers, those are generally seen as core perks for those killer so they have TIME to setup.