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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296872#Comment_3296872
The deterrence to not tunnel is suppose to be survivors being good at the chase. Technically decisive strike was also a deterrence for m1 killers to not tunnel because the 5 stun lasted so long that survivor could hold-W for like 25 seconds in perfectly straight line with zero risk which produced artificially long chases with no merit whatsoever. It was entirely lose/lose situation for weaker killers. It was mild annoyance for stronger killers like blight because they could catch-up very quickly and just see it as regular 2nd chase. With weakening on of decisive strike, its like that for all killers now.
Punishing killers for tunneling will not stop killer tunneling because its their objective to kill. Its like trying punish survivor for tunneling generators.
You have to give incentives the killer to go for fresh hooks and take chases with survivor with less hook-state loss. Currently, a killer that does not tunnel is literally play the game on ultra-hard mode and survivor is playing ultra-easy mode for killer purposely forcing themselves to play bad. Killer's tunnel because they want to win as well. If you want killer to not tunnel, then become good at 1vs1 chase such that tunneling is punishing for the killer. Other then that, stop complaining when the killer optimizes their objective.
You are assuming:
- deadzones dont exist
- survivors having the resources available off hook
- survivors being able to read minds and know someone is being tunneled the moment they are off hook
And there is incentive for killers to go for fresh hooks: chases are shorter after the nerf, creating deadzones is faster, generators take longer, bloodlust increments are faster so its easier to dedicate to a new chase too.
You would be right with "Currently, a killer that does not tunnel is literally play the game on ultra-hard mode" If that wasnt the exact same logic applied before the nerf. Genregression was arguably at equal quality as it is today, and arguably it currently is worse since a quarter of the genregression perks need communications to reduce their impact(Let go of the gen, im close to a hook. Let go of the gen, im about to be downed. The killer kicked my gen at tile X(if the killer knowingly uses Overcharge or Call of Brine)).
Besides, if you were facing a SWF, the 2 or 3 gens would pop by the time you can tunnel anyway, and the killer would be chasing someone else. In SoloQ, this isnt really the case. This change would almost exclusively benefit soloq, while rarely benefitting SWF at all.
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@Crowman said:
If a killer able to tunnel a survivor out of the game and the survivors have gotten no gens done. That's the fault of the survivors. Punishing the killer for the survivors playing poorly is the wrong way to balance the game.
Things that are needed to give solo survivors that are not on comms that capability:
- a way to find out where teammates are, basekit.
- a way to find out what survivors are doing, basekit.
- a way to find out where survivors are going, basekit.
- a way to find out where the killer is if another survivor spots them or a teammate is being tunneled, basekit.
- a way to find out whether or not the killer is camping or not, basekit.
In the case of SWF on comms, you're 100% correct. Yet, most players arent 4 man swf, and among them, a huge portion also isnt on comms.
As for punishing the killer, its not really, its adding a risk in the early game. There is little to no risk for the killer to tunnel at 4-5 gens remaining, especially if the killer has mobility, yet the reward is cutting down survivor generator potential from 1 popping every 90 seconds, to 1 popping every 180 seconds if the killer doesnt go for hardcore generator regression after a kill. Thats doubling the game length required for survivors for 1 early kill, while survivors have to deal with less resources to face the same issues.
That should be a scenario creatable with risk. Its not punishing the killers, killers have more than plenty of options to create a similar situation without tunneling, its just reducing their options by 1 for the duration of the first 2 or 3 generators. Meaning if 2 or 3 gens popped, you can still tunnel someone out, or you can still tunnel someone out by tanking a 3 second stun prior to that. It is just a means of deterrence and adding a risk.
The other option is buffing survivors once 1 survivor dies early on due to tunneling.
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@Ryuhi said:
Why would you come up with a hypothetical scenario involving 3 people working on 1 gen at the start of the match and not have it finish before the first hook?
Its a more extreme situation, but the point was that its a perfect setup to go for other survivors and have a huge chance of killing them all before the game ends, but instead of doing that, people tunnel.
Why would you in a situation where you can engage with other players without risking a loss, still go for the same player? Because its even less risky and the reward is much larger.
The fact that this happens coughcoughsoloqcoughcough, means there needs to be a deterrence.
Because I can also include more common scenario's, where a Nurse faces 4 random survivors, or when a Plague pukes on gens while running Ruin, and certain survivors literally refusing to touch that generator untill the infection is gone, or when a Legion runs around and a claudette with a medkit decides to use selfcare every single time to save the medkit for "when it matters".
Tunneling is simply an issue, you either have a lot of perks and basekit mechanics against it, giving the reason "we cant spend that time on other survivors, so we are forced to tunnel early", or basically no effective perks and basekit mechanics, giving the reason "we have no reason to not tunnel early, and there is a huge benefit". Neither reasons should really exist.
There needs to be a deterrence early on to the point that the killer could lose the game(and so that everyone, including the first one found, to have a chance at fun. People literally DC early on if tunneled because they know they are not going to enjoy the rest of the game), there needs to be room to tunnel in the mid-game to give the killer room to turn a game around, and there needs to be nothing preventing a killer from tunneling in the end game to get all the kills they still can get(personally, basekit BT should also be removed there) so that survivors have to work their asses off to pull off a rescue).
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@ByeByeQ said:
Decisive Strike is still a problem perk because of how Dead Hard was reworked. Now players, usually with entirely meta chase builds, are trying to be entirely offensive (often in every sense of the word) to entice killers to tunnel them and then are using DS to get rid of their mend and "recharge" their Dead Hard.
Decisive Strike is not an anti-tunnel perk. It is an offensive perk. It cannot be buffed without removing this synergy with Dead Hard.
If it is meant to be an actual anti-tunnel perk, it needs to be reworked.
Even under that logic, I dont see an issue with DS being a 5 second stun or locking a mobility killer in place for a bit. People use DH in that way to get some use out of DS, not the other way around.
Besides, its completely optional to not tunnel there. There is 3 other survivors.
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@FMG15 said:
Not a bad idea honestly but I see no reason not to revert the stun duration back to 5 seconds since it deactivates in endgame anyway
The reason is head-on. Appearantly, jumping in a locker for DS, then jumping back in for a Head-On stun was not considered nice.
I understand it back when people could use DS, then Head-On, and then flashlight save for as long as the flashlight had battery left, but the final part has been removed.
If you are willing to tunnel someone, and that someone has DS and Headon, then both those perks are a potential deterrence from tunneling.
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@Starrseed said:
To start this. Camping and tunneling sucks for the game experience of the survivor. That's a fact. It's also a fact that there are time where it is the right call to camp or tunnel.
So I think most of us can agree on that we want camping and tunneling to be as little as possible. Bhvr could do that. Bhvr could make it less effective so you almost always loose when you do it and that it's only the right call in certain situations.
But and here starts the stuff many people don't want to hear. But that would mean either buffs to killer or nerfs to survivor.
If we take really toxic 5 Gen camping and brutal tunneling where you ignore the others even if you could easily get others on the hook aside it's you often feel like it's the only right call to camp or tunnel.
I want to focus more on tunneling since I think camping is a bad call most of the time aside from endgame. Tunneling is crazy effective and there could be made the point that it is to effective. It feels very bad for the survivor that get tunneld and many survivor tent to say killer that do it are lazy or do it to be toxic and I certainly won't deny that those players exist.
What I want to point out is that since bhvr atm does nothing about it the game now is kinda balanced with tunneling in it. If we would take it out doesn't matter how but let's say it's gone tomorrow Kill rates would drop significantly and not because killers are lazy and don't know how to play but because many rely on it since for most killer a typical game Beginns like this.
You search the first survivor start the chase and since there are still all pallets on the map you most of the time get the down when the first two or even three gens pop. So now you are at a point where if the survivor don't screw up it goes down hill. One is on hook one gets chased one rescues one does a Gen. by the time you get the second hook the first is saved and the fourth gen is probably almost done rince and repeat you are probably at three or four hooks by the time gates are powered.
Oke I know I know this scenario expects the survivor to don't do things like two people go for unhook but what I wanted to show with this is its nothing the killer influences. If the survivor don't screw up that's how it goes. And when bhvr finally gives solo q what they deserve and gives them more info so they don't screw up this will happen even more.
So the killer tunnels because the chances to get a kill that way is higher the game gets better to manage with one less survivor.
I thin when bhvr finally addresses tunneling and camping and helps solo q survivor should not be surprised to either see big killer buffs/survivor nerfs or since it's bhvr don't see them for a year and see q times up to 20 min
To end this I want to say it again. I don't want to defend hard tunneling and facecamping in any way all I want to say is since bhvr don't do anything about it for so long it now is part of the balance.
What are your opinions about it
Since the devs have decided to keep bloodlust 3 in the game and even buff it, I think a fair trade off would be to add an early game protection to survivors where tunneling them out would be extremely hard. Basically a basekit DS untill 3 gens are finished. That way, you can still get a ton of hooks, and get 2 hooks on survivors who touch gens or totems early, but its gonna be really hard to tunnel them out early on. Aka, a much higher risk on tunneling, for a huge slowdown. That would be fair from a design position.
In return, I think Bloodlust shouldnt lose all stacks after kicking a pallet. I think it should reduce 1 stack of bloodlust instead and increase the breaking speed of said pallet by 25%(but only when kicked, not when broken through an ability). That way, you dont need to wait for another bloodlust stage to catch up, are faster at creating deadzones and can close the gap quicker after breaking said pallet. And I am still for an "out of chase" type of bloodlust, where if you are out of chase for longer than 20 seconds, you gain a 10% haste boost. That gives some mobility to slower killers and allows for some niche plays(like Pig or Ghostface crouching towards survivors, altho ghostface reveals need to be fixed)
That way, there is a deterrence to early game tunneling, but also a basekit mechanic against early-droppers and against holding W against killers like Myers.
@C3Tooth said:
That's a fact. It's also a fact that there are time where it is the right call to camp or tunnel.
There is always the right time to camp & tunnel.
- If you manage to early down, tunnel & camp them will leave other survivors dont have time to complete 5 Gens.
- If you down them later, tunnel & camp them will give you 50/50 chance between survivors complete 5 Gens and escape, or attempt to unhook and you can get free hits.
- If you down them in end game, tunnel & camp to secure a kill.
The first one shouldnt be "right time to camp and tunnel" tho. Having a survivor out really early is simply a lost game, there is no surrender button, so survivors are forced to wait untill they are dead. Especially since there is no risk to it, and the reward is huge. A huge reward should come either with at least a decent risk.
Personally, I would say tunneling at 2 gens remaining(or 3 when you're certain one is about to pop), is fine. I would love to see a basekit DS that triggers as long as there are 3 or more generators left. Especially now that its only 3 seconds.
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@barsw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296741#Comment_3296741
No stacking buffs just normal speed 70-75 % its not that hard .
Even then, its quite absurd. 75% healing speed means a good survivor can heal in a chase. The 50% made it possible with Botany Knowledge(BK being 33% back then), but even then it was quite difficult. Heck, old Botany Knowledge and a Medkit was pretty much needed for that with maybe desperate measures. But 75%, even without stacking, means you can progress at any point you can stand still at.
People who are able to trigger an exhaustion perk twice in 1 chase are people who can heal themselves up with 75% speed.
And in all honesty, 35% isnt bad on its own. The reason why 35% is bad is because of Mangled affecting the speed. If the 35% speed was flat, ignoring all anti-healing debuffs, it would actually be really good again.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280145#Comment_3280145
Survivor add ons are fantastic. They can add charges to medkits, silence sabotage efforts, and spot a killer aura while looping!
Killer addons(in general) are fantastic, they can instadown, they can speed up charges, make you undetectable, reveal survivor locations and even their aura's.
Survivor addons are meh, medkit addons are only good due to the power of the medkit itself, sabotage toolboxes are fairly mediocre and while bloodamber is really good, keys are not worth running as the rest of the addons are extremely mediocre and require perks
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@Nazzzak said:
Honestly, what helped me as a solo player was letting go of the goal of escaping. Now, a successful game to me is simply one where i pulled my weight, pipped, and walked away with decent bp. Escape is a bonus. The game genuinely became more enjoyable after that. And it also helps when I get those potato team mates too, as I find them more amusing rather than frustrating. I know that train of thought isn't possible for everyone, but it's definitely what keeps me interested.
That's all fine and dandy, the issue is more that the main reason why camping and tunneling is ever so effective is due to a massive gap of information. DBD has been balancing killers with SWF in mind, but they haven't been balancing too much with Solo in mind.
I remember a statement about a year and a half ago where they said straight up aura reading between characters(aka bond with infinite range) would be too much info and would be somewhat exploitable. But I've played some matches where I used Bond and Open Handed for maximum range reading while using small maps. It honestly was fine. And I had done it on comms too. All that changed was having to explain my position if people wanted to take a hit(especially if people weren't familiar with a specific map). The only reason I would state against it, is because it would make quite a lot of perks useless(Kindred, Situational Awareness, Empathy, Empathic Connection, Aftercare and No One Left Behind)
Right now, I think the best thing to do is simply make the "patchwork" perks basekit for survivors. Aka, if a SWF can easily call it out, it shouldn't be a perk. So let's look at the full list by placing the perk next to a call out:
1. Buckle Up - "I'm (roughly) at X%, you can/can't pick me up"
2. Better Together(or Situational Awareness) - "I'm on the gen near X, come help me/don't lead the killer here"(not including the aura reading ofcourse)
3. Empathy/Empathic Connection - "Let's meet up and heal near X"
4. Bond(sort off), I just wish there was a survivor instinct button. So you could press it and you get a survivor heartbeat on where they roughly are. You can even add a killer heartbeat if they are within 16 meter of a hooked survivor. Giving effectively kindred to survivors, without giving away auras
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3272725#Comment_3272725
No. Just... no.
Pyramidhead add-ons on legendarily bad. You have the two range extenders, and that's it. EVERYTHING else is garbage. Unless you are somehow in love with "Undetectable while standing on your own trail".
Honestly, IMO that is a designer mistake. I am 99% certain that Pyrhead was originally designed with the trail starting under his feet(being undetectable as you lay down trails AND when you walk on them later), but they later moved the trail backwards to fit with the blade animation.
Having the trail moved 0.5 meters forward so he stands on it while using it, and considering the fact that when he was released his other addons were lessened in power because he could basically guarantee hits and they for sure knew.
So what probably really happened is that the addons and power were considered balanced as a total package, but then due to the practical guaranteed hits, PyrHead was adjusted and he no longer was a balanced package.
Like, lets say I test a killer with relatively mediocre addons, but his power is really good and he has a nice addon that makes him undetectable while placing down his trail. Then a part of his power gets visually adjusted so it looks nicer, as a playtester, I am not going to consider that they changed the way the power works mechanically, so I say he's still fine. It's not the fault of either, and since PyrHead is viable enough, his addons arent really a priority either.
We know that Blight(mainly alchemist ring) and Twins are being worked on, Twins having the higher priority, mentioned in the q&a nearly a year ago. Simply because we also had the prestige rework, the meta rework, Mori Rework(still not released), Gameflow improvements(we kinda had some, gens are slower and basekit BT, but thats barely any improvement when considering solo survivor being in the worst state since release), that all needed to be tested too. So with Twins and Blight changes being announced in january last year, and neither having reached PTB or live servers, simply indicates there is a lot to be tested. PyrHead for sure is on the list, all he needs is his trail being moved slightly ahead so he stands on it while he generates it, turn the "Right of Judgement" effects into "Tormented" effects and remove the timers(so blindness and oblivious while tormented are permanent if you never cage anyone, pretty good addons if they work like that), and suddenly, both the recharge time and duration addons are also worth more because those 4 addons are being used more often. The only bad addon after that is the Scarlet Egg, and that one can be easily changed by giving aura readings for 2 seconds rather than killer instinct.
And yeah, you could always want stronger addons, but both sides can easily argue that. If anyone is in need of an addon rework, its survivors in general.
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The thing with Knight is that he is a very good camper and tunneler while shutting down loops. From a surv perspective, there is no real interaction, from a killer perspective, his power outside chase doesnt do much, even though most of the design makes it seem like it should.
So basically what you have is a patrol mechanic, which really isnt that good. Jailer, which is the least useful one of all(Carnifex and Assassin both have the ability to either injure a survivor or keep them busy). And a situation where its better to just spam m2 quickly than it is to set any path at all.
That's basically a huge part of the Knight not being usable, and a tiny part thats really boring to play as and against.
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It's probably easy to fix, but it's not game breaking enough to issue a hotfix specifically for that one check, nor is it appearantly gamebreaking enough to disable the map.
While there are a few that link up that make it danm hard to finish that chase, most killers have ways around most of the spawns.
As long as the average chase doesn't exceed 60 seconds, and the average killrate doesn't go below 2.5, it's manageable.
I personally understand people wanting the hotfix or a killswitch, but nothing gamebreaking is happening with it yet.
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Honestly, most pallets are weak against the vast majority of killers, there are 3 that are near impossible to mindgame, but almost every other one is doable for killers since there is constant vision and thus very easy to maintain chase. Then there is only 1 window other than shack that is some use as the rest of the tiles have gaps that either make fast vaulting very difficult or have gaps that allow the killer to maintain a similar distance.
Thats not to say that there is obviously a bug in the code skipping the pallet check, because last time I checked the RNG tiles are not supposed to spawn a pallet within 8 meters(and even then, there is like a chance that it won't) and the only pallets that skip that check are static pallets. And I've seen 3 weak pallets spawn in a triangle that was either barely 8 meters or within 8 meters(I am not going to spend time trying to figure that out).
This either means that the minimal pallet distance is reduced or even 0, or that there is a bug in the spawn chance where literally every pallet that can spawn, will spawn.
3rd possibility, a potentially cruel test to see if pallet count still matters more than pallet strength.
In any case, the only killers I've seen struggle a bit on the map are stealth killers and Trapper. Mainly due to their powers kinda requiring to be not visible.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3272612#Comment_3272612
They didn't test it. The PTB was bugged so that the buffer was during the entire pickup animation. +.40s buffer is entirely untested unless they have a QA department which honestly I'm not certain they do.
You are ignoring the fact that playtesters exist, most of them having many, many, many more hours than the average veteran.
So yeah, the 0.25 part was tested, they added 0.15 to prevent laggy killers from picking up survivors and having no counter(because laggy killers would finish the animation before the server recieves it, making them immune to it), and it gives laggy survivors the ability to readjust their beam as it otherwise would need to be frame perfect.
So you have a situation where one side basically gets a free perk, and the other side has to be absolutely frame perfect every single time or they cant use an item. For those players, 0.15 was added to compensate, making everyone vulnerable and give every survivor a relatively equal chance.
And thats not even talking about the fact that flashlights only really have 5 useful addons, 6 if you count the halloween bulb too, out of 14 total, and out of those 5 usefull addons, only 3 are used because they do the same thing as the others, but better. Thats only 20% of the addons. Its objectively the item/power with the least variety because of that.
Not a single killer ability has only 5 useful addons, most of them have at least 10 useful ones. A lot of killers tend to stick with the same 3-5 addons because they are simply the best, but they can run out and there would be enough back up.
So as of now, yeah, enough testing has been done with the flashlight blinding. Since there were basically 3-4 frames where you could blind the killer before they could look away before, we basically went from 0.08 to 0.4. Thats from 4 frames to 20 frames, out of an animation that lasts 180 frames.
Remember that originally, the pick up animation lasted 5 seconds, you could use instablinds to the point that you had to look up/down permanently because a single beam being able to hit your face was a save, and brightness actually could give you a variety in how late you could be for a blind save. Then they removed brightness having effect on the blinding speed(its now a static time), and they nearly doubled the speed for a pickup. Making the blind nearly frame perfect.
Since Lightborn was changed from decreasing the blinding speed(giving you even less room) to fully disabling the blindness effect for killers, and dedicated servers sometimes making blinds impossible, flashlight needed some extra wiggleroom as compensation.
Because while yeah, it sounds unfair, look at it from a gameplay perspective. You have an item that can only be effective while the killer is in an animation, and even then they can just use a perk to deny you that, and having only 6 killers who have an ability that can somewhat be countered by flashlights, but even then not really because Nurse can blink before you get the lightburn, Artist can send the crows 2 seconds before you get rid of them, Myers and Ghostface dont need to look at you specifically, leaving only Wraith and Hag, where Hag has addons that can make her instantly respawn to her traps being removed meaning the only killer that gets countered by it is Wraith.
Would you use that item over, lets say, a key that can show you the killer's aura? Or a medkit that can self heal you up more than once? Or a toolbox that can reduce a single generator from 90 seconds to 70 seconds? Or even a map that allows you to find that one pesky totem for the sake of a boon, hex or a totem perk?
I dont think flashlights are done either btw, I feel like by the time they are done, lightburning Nurse and disabling crows is going to be faster, while Wraith finally gets less punishment from being stunned from a lightburn.
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@HellDescent said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3271304#Comment_3271304
Oh yeah, there's nothing like having a meat hook going through your heart or a collapsed lung for an adrenaline boost
I mean, thats how the body works.
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@Jay_K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3271312#Comment_3271312
But how does that make it balanced for both survivor and killer. If a survivor unhooks in the killers face thats on the survivor. the killer shouldn't be punished for that (this is a reason im against the base kit BT but thats gonna forever be in the game)
Neither should the unhooked survivor be punished for it. Basekit BT is only as good as its duration, and 10 seconds doesnt combat tunneling.
If basekit BT was all survivors had, I would be proxycamping hard with DeadLock, Grim Embrace, Pain Resonance and Dead Mans Switch. The first time, they are going to be unaware of the pain resonance, DeadLock slows down the game and I just have to patrol a 3 gen.
If we're going to compare mechanics, in this scenario, the killer shouldnt be able to break a pallet when they have just been stunned, or very current, they shouldnt be immune from locker based blinds. Yet they are.
And how is the killer punished for that? You literally have another survivor who unhooked in your face, you can hit them, you can down them and replace them on the hook. Thats not a punishment, thats a free hook.
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Ah yes, the floor is made of floor
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I've quit DBD on 3-4 occasions. Once right after release(ironically, about 5 days before the legacy prestige changes were made public, I still wish to this day that I recieve 2 more items for Legacy Meg as I had the BP to do so), once around late 2017, then played a bit on and off again in 2019, then had a 3-ish month break before I "truly" returned. And in between I've had a few weeks where I wouldnt be on at all either.
Its how I managed to keep finding the game interesting and fun enough to play. People take the "just play a different game" or "do something else" a bad argument because the game should be fun and they shouldnt feel frustrated after 3 hours of gameplay because other games dont have that either.
To that, I personally laugh, because the games they referred to are/were known to be the most salty or toxic communities. The reason they probably didnt notice, is because they barely played the game compared to DBD. I can say with 100% certainty, I dont play League of Legends anymore because everytime I came back, my teammates were toxic. I dont play Overwatch anymore, because everytime I played a strategic character that has to carefully place things and then be able to bait opponents in their traps, I was considered bad and horrible(I still have a clip where I basically got all 6 kills while doing nothing because I read them all like an open book), if I picked a character I was still a noob because I wasnt able to take down the opponent's tank efficiently enough.
DBD has, with all toxicity considered, quite a healthy community. Most toxic behaviour isnt actually toxic behaviour because the intent wasnt toxic. And even then, you can simply turn off End Game Chat and avoid all toxicity. Once you get frustrated, dont push on untill you are satisfied, just take a break. An hour, a day, a week, a month, a year, whatever you need untill you have fun again.
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@Moxie said:
It is almost as if they need to make the 4 survivor players have more fun as opposed to the single Killer player.
We can argue/discuss the degree but obviously survivors need to be slightly over-tuned as they constitute 70% of the player-base.
Survivors overall are undertuned tho. If the average state of the game would mean 50% escape rate for survivors and slightly more than 50% killrate for killers, then sure, it might be slightly overtuned for survivors.
But right now? Escaperates are less than 40% on average, and killrates are at 60%
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@illNicola said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/355492/let-survivors-do-their-glyphs
So when the killer is doing a glyph the game stop, survivors drop gens, healing or whatever their doing only because the killer must do a glyph. It doesn't make sense what you say. You do the glyph if you have time, because I bet if you see the killer doing a glyph you run away from him, you don't wait.
Killer does a glyph in less than 2 seconds and does so when they have time or happen to pass by, survivor spends an average(!) of 10 seconds per glyph. The only times they casually walk by and are able to spend time on it, is if they have a team that does gens while they do so or all gens are already finished. Any other time, and its gaining the killer bonus time. The killer doesnt really lose any time realistically.
So yeah, best thing you can do is wait out the glyph a little, or make sure you hook them next to the glyph and dont tunnel.
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They need to rebalance flashlights in general, with the current state of things, 65% of flashlight addons either have 2+ addons that do the same thing but better, or addons that dont really do anything at all.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
I also feel like flashlights are pathetic now. They should have let you click like 3x before going on cooldown and I have no clue why they changed where they point. I also feel like the buffer is likely overturned. They nearly doubled an untested value. Insane.
I mean, they tested it, and it somewhat counteracted the flashlight cooldown to the point that it didnt need to be frame perfect to save someone. The only thing I am kinda questioning is why they made the latency difference 150ms when 100ms would have accounted for anyone up to 50ms(latency is 2x ping). Now up to 75ms wont be screwed over by servers, but on the other hand, if you're far too early with flashlights while lagging, its almost guaranteed to hit.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Worse case then when Artist came out. I bet I saw her on her realese day more than this Killer. On the other hand the new Survivor is the best seller from this chapter. I saw plenty of shirtless skins on him as well. I quess the best seller this time around will be the Survivor, while the Killer will be on the lower side.
I quess people don't like worse Artist that has less gameplay and takes way less skill.
Well, this has been the case ever since Twins TBH. Mainly because the perks have synergy with other killers too. Its not that I dont like playing Knight, but I dont want to play the same killer for longer than 2 hours. So yeah, the first 2 hours you're only gonna see 1 killer, the rest is gonna be other killers with perks of the new killer, then normal gameplay again.
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@Adjatha said:
If you were supposed to use your guards in a 'control and guard' sense, they would've made them last longer. Like, a LOT longer. That tiny duration says "use it when you see a survivor," which works against you because they get more info than you do, it has a long start-up, has a 'turn off' button the survivors can tap, and you lose sight while placing it for some reason?
Seems like yet another killer designed and balanced by the Survivors Deserve More committee.
Thing is, he kinda needs to be. Not because survivors are 4x as many as killers in general, but because he is very good at camping and tunneling.
He barely needs to stand still to activate his power and he can get a double hit off 1 survivor before they can unhook. If his power is like it was promoted to be, he will need to be gutted around hooked survivors. Not even talking about window drops and pallets being absolutely useless to use against his AI. So if you're hooked next to a drop, get unhooked and the knight is close? He just gives you the AI to chase you and he goes the shortest route himself.
Personally, I rather have the opposite. Especially considering the devs didnt want killers to be able to easily camp someone out
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
I don't know what their deal is with Trapper. Dude is a relic and clearly needs some significant changes.
He did gain a lot of significant changes, and the game itself has recieved a lot of significant changes that help Trapper a lot. Like Dead Hard's change, Off The Record and DS not working after the final gen is done. A new sort of NOED that helps Trapper immensely as the only counter to it is opening the gates(and thus make Bloodwarden a lot more powerful on him too). Chase has been sped up by about 15%, which is really good for killers like Trapper.
The one problem that he has now is his traps being extremely hard to hide. Mechanically he is solid, practically, his power only has the use of scaring away survivors from 1 single loop. Hide his traps and his power is really good
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@fake said:
No...
Change the name of the tar bottle to "environmentally compatible dye". Instead of just turning the trap black, change the effect to "changes the color of the trap according to the map".
That would either make that addon a requirement to play trapper, or still make him very map reliant if he doesnt use the addon. Hence it being needed as a basekit.
Also, changes the color of the trap according to the map is very vague. Because The Game has white, grey and blue-grey sections. That would heavily limit the area of the map you can trap effectively and makes counterplay against that very easy by avoiding those parts of the map. Adding a cameo on the trap that basically redirects lightrays from the floor onto the trap is practically the same effect as transparancy, but much harder to make look good.
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@Flopiyutiop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267493#Comment_3267493
I agree that Blink should be treated as M2, would it be just as a matter of consistency. But, at the same time you have add ons that allows her to Blink 2 times almost instantly after fatigué, so we really need to have some part of the map that can grant a chance at escaping, and having long corridor structures as the only LOS on a lot of map is also à big oof to me.
Oh if we're going in depth on some of the Nurse issues:
Nurse doesnt need 2 recharge addons, the yellow one can be reworked into something else. I would say the green one due to her 3-blink addon, but you could also give 3-blink Nurse a slightly bigger recharge penalty or a bigger fatique penalty on her 3rd blink.
Using her m1 asap+fatique shouldnt be the same cooldown as waiting for fatique, because Lunging gives her additional distance that waiting for her fatique doesnt do. Unrelenting actually makes this beneficial too. Missing a hit should increase her fatique/decrease her fatique movementspeed even further.
DS should deplete all charges on killers that can close gaps quite effectively(Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Wesker, Clown and Twins included) and block charging for the duration of the perk stun. The reason no one runs DS and prefers Off The Record is because its absolutely useless against these killers who are already quite good at tunneling.
These 3 changes affecting Nurse alone(altho the DS one I would prefer to be implemented like that) would give survivors plenty of room for counterplay even on open maps.
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@Little_Kitten said:
Let all maps be like Lery: no, just no thanks 😂
On the other hand, as Predated rightly says, the advantage of Lery's walls (and fortunately) is that they are thin enough that the nurse is not affected by the blink in place due to the classic : "Ha ha, your destination was in a solid wall, so your blink will be a 0.1m blink" 😁
Its really a shame that RPD is the odd one out. Not sure about the new Gideon Meatplant, as the old Gideon did have thin walls too, but The Game is quite good on Nurse regardless of walls as far as I know. Even Hawkins had super thin walls that allowed for instablinks.
Lery's has god tier Nurse potential since the entire map is a flat plane, and has a lot of straight walls that she can pass through. The only reason I think why Nurses hate it is because they are used to looking where survivors are going. But on Lery's that only matters on corners. Lery's is a map where you have to assume you're phasing like Spirit while playing Nurse.
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@TheycallmeLix said:
Not trying to make a us vs them thread, so let’s keep it civil.
Killers: Pain Res/DMS/Eruption/COB/Overcharge/Deadlock and NWO.
Survivors: Dead Hard/OTR/Sprint Burst/Adrenaline/DS/Windows and Boon totems.
Honestly, I really prefer the old meta cuz this new meta is really annoying to go against and it didn’t change much if you look at it right now. People still bring Pain Res and DMS and Dead Hard with OTR almost every game. Old meta was so much better, and less stressful to go against then the new meta.
What are your plans thoughts about it? And is the 80 sec on a gen gonna comeback or is gonna stay 90 sec gen time forever?
I think the 90 second gens are fine if DBD decides to place the Ruin and Thana change on other regression/slowdown perks too. Ruin and Thana thrive as long as all 4 survivors are alive, but once 1 is dead, they are useless. The biggest issue of this meta is that you can tunnel someone out as a killer, reduce survivor efficiency from 1/1/1/1(1 on a gen, 1 in a chase, 1 on a hook and 1 rescuing/healing) to 1/1/1(1 in a chase, 1 on a hook and 1 having to bounce between gens rescuing and healing). So you reduce survivor gentime from 1 done every 90 seconds to 1 done every 180 seconds or so, especially if they still heal up. Yet Pain Res, Eruption, Call of Brine, Pop, Jolt, Overcharge, Gift of Pain and even Dying Light still work at 100% power. So from a survivor perspective, Pain Res goes from reducing just 15% extra time on 1 gen, to being capable of fully regressing a generator because there simply arent enough survivors to combat it.
I think generator blockers overall are still fine in the current meta, but the regression power gives killers a massive benefit for tunneling(even though devs wanted to reduce the ability to do so).
Survivor meta is overall quite fine. Windows of Oppertunity is just meh and you can memorize most, it mainly helps with finding pallets. Adrenaline is easy to counter with NOED or Terminus. OTR is a fair perk in most cases(altho I am of the opinion that using any item that isnt required to use(the box, vaccines, sprays) should count as a conspicious action. Maps give away where the hatch is for example. Flashlights allow you to rescue a survivor who is being carried(which IMO is worse for a killer/better for survivors than unhooking). Keys literally allow you to see the killer or see teammates. And Medkits+toolboxes are already in a position where actively using them is considered a conspicious action, pulling all items in 1 line would add some logic to gameplay while also being able to buff/nerf some of them accordingly), Sprintburst and Dead Hard are both fine. The worst perk IMO is Hyperfocus.
If Hyperfocus loses some of its power, or make it significantly harder to hit after 3 stacks, I would say survivor meta is fine. Killers would need gen regression perks to either be like exhaustion perks or they need those perks to stop having (as much as) an effect once 1 survivor is already dead. Either that, or survivors need to start getting more action speed(faster totems, faster gens, faster heals) bonusses once 1 survivor dies.
Personally, I am in the place of reducing gen regression once 1 survivor is dead, because then there is a lot more room to buff certain things on the killer side that currently irk me. Like locker searching speeds, lighting up the auras regardless if they are in your vision or not, adding a basekit 10% haste that lingers for 10 seconds once a survivor is hooked, having haste if you're outside of chase for too long, increased window vault speeds.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267471#Comment_3267471
Oh, no! You can't say that nursing is a problem everywhere! Don't become like all those people whose only arguments are to make overgeneralizations in order to appear convincing! 😣
However, the issue of LOS RNG is super complex.
I had pointed this out elsewhere, but so much Lery, for a nurse is .... too much. Just too much. Too many walls, too many angles, too big a map, help, help.
On other maps, it seems infinitely complicated to calculate their "efficiency" in terms of LOS : it depends on so many parameters : how does the nurse play ? How do the survivors play ? Do they know how to play a nurse ? Can they play with bluffing? The double bluff? The triple bluff? Etc.
Lery's is actually my favourite map to play Nurse on. But that is maybe because I kinda memorized the layout of that map through vault master myer builds. Indoor maps have the most static layouts of them all to the point where Lery's is 99% predictable in layout. Its the most static map that isnt licensed.
A huge trick for Nurse on that map is that she can pretty much instablink through walls because they are thin enough to do so. Once you can basically travel blindly to push survivors into corners, all you have to do is rely on survivor noises. I am almost willing to bet that all Nurse needs is Stridor on Lery's and there is practically nothing survivors can do unless they have comms.
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Even with all that, the problem is still Nurse. All this does is increase the initial skillfloor of Nurse, but it doesnt lower the skill ceiling. She literally has the power to blink on top of a survivor, no matter in what position they are, and hit them and there is nothing they can do about that. Even if a survivor stands in a pallet and is capable of dropping it, Nurse can register a hit on them before they are able to stun her. You would need an absolute frame perfect pallet drop to have a chance at the hit to miss. And yes, I say chance, because the server could still decide that you were within region of recieving damage.
Personally, I rather have her skillfloor reduced a little bit so it doesnt take 50 hours to play her decently, while lowering her skill ceiling too.
Then you have the matter of fact that Nurse can also change the distance of her blink if she looks up or down. Which isnt a bad thing, but it does remove even more counterplay. Huntress has a similar thing, but you have a LOT of time to react to a hatchet that has a sudden change in arc. Not to even take into comparison that Huntress hatchets are considered M2's. Imagine if her hatchets counted as M1's, imagine how busted certain perks on her would be. That is what Nurse is.
So while I agree LOS would help a little bit, it doesnt help with perks like Noed, Haunted Grounds, Devour Hope, Starstruck, Make Your Choice, Hubris, Rancor and even Iron Maiden(one of the ways to avoid a Nurse hit is jumping in a nearby locker untill she goes into fatique, Iron Maiden makes that a horrible choice). Then you have Coup de Grace(reduced in lunge range due to Nurse), Awakened Awareness(removed the time to see aura's because of Starstruck on Nurse), Dead Mans Switch(both Nurse and Blight in this case, but DMS would have been fine for most killers), Ruin(again, also Blight), Gearhead(changed to 2 basic attacks from the PTB, because of Nurse, the only killer where this perk would actually be oppressive on), Pain Res(again, both Blight and Nurse were mainly the culprits, for most other killers, the old effect would have been fine), Corrupt Intervention(while a really good overall change, its mainly because of Nurse that it needed a deactivation after the first down). All these perks that are now below mediocre, because of how effective they are on Nurse(and sometimes Blight). Its perk changes like this that make me think how many other perks were designed sub-par, simply because Nurse exists.
So yeah, Nurse is the problem. And the main way to solve half the problems around her is turning her post-blink attack into an M2. This would also give Spasmodic Breath some genuine use other than just being a bit of a meme(and could actually be buffed to be 120% IMO)
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3246220#Comment_3246220
Whether she's the strongest Killer or not, her kill rates are not out of line for over 95% of players and lags behind many Killers for a significant percentage of the player base. To resummarize my arguments, balancing solely around the top less than one percent of the playerbase is a terrible idea as all ranges of player skill have to be able to have fun.
Well, again, you gotta look into the reasoning behind that:
- Nurse requires some time to get used to
- After getting used to her, it takes some time to master
- Equipped perks matter
- Platform matters(console Nurse is a lot more difficult than pc Nurse)
Looking at killrates and being like "this is fine" is not looking at the crux of the issue. Looking at the killrates of all MMR's. Myers seems to be nicely balanced. Yet, he's in desperate need of a buff. The biggest benefit he has in the top 5% mmr is his stealth countering most comms. You dont know its a Myers untill he either reaches t2 or if he is seen by a survivor. If he reaches t2, its often too late as a lot of Myers run Tombstone Piece, instantly killing 1, and since 1 survivor is dead after only 1-2 gens, the rest is a lot more managable.
Factors into these rates matter. Balancing solely around killrates is as much as a terrible idea as balancing around the top % of the playerbase. Just as it is a terrible idea to balance a killer towards console or pc alone.
In the long run, nerfing nurse in these ways will give room to buff her in others. I personally am of the opinion that Nurse should be moving at 100% when walking and practically standing still while charging(she moves about 1.2 meters per second, I would cut that in half). Distance wise, it means she can cover a lot more ground before deciding to blink, but if she decides to blink, she cant peek around corners as easily. Keeping her lethality very similar against SWF, but gives more room for survivors to break line of sight(the trees being thinner on all maps buffed Nurse in terms of line of sight, this would basically even that out).
Right now, its to a point where you dont stand a chance against a decent Nurse without comms.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3246213#Comment_3246213
I don't know how you got an essay out of my comment.
I also don't know how everything you managed to say ended up being completely irrelevant and missing the point of my post.
But here we are.
I mean, your post had no relevancy because you ignored the context of the post you got that snippet from. You had no point.
All you had was 1 sentence out of context to try and discredit my post, which had a lot of points that your comment also missed.
You're simply ignorant, you look at 1 sentence you disagree with, decide that's enough to disagree with the entire post and all future posts.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Using flashlight to turn off killer powers is very annoying thing and I wish the existing "counters" to killer powers by flashlight (except for Hag traps) would be removed.
I would not go the opposite direction to buff them. No, thanks. Flashlights can be pretty usefull in right hands allready for saves and now it will be even easier so no.
Thing is, flashlight saves themselves can already be easily countered by facing a wall, if not outright cancelled out by Lightborn. Leaving flashlights themselves with very little use.
As for it being an annoying thing, depends on what is required to turn it off. Like I said, blinding a revving bubba to force him into a tantrum is a good way of looking at it. You as a killer can easily avoid it in that case, but if you dont pay attention(by focussing too much on the hook for example), survivors can pull off a rescue where that otherwise would be impossible.
And again, you would also have to consider what benefits a killer. I would say to uncloak wraith, you could speed up the uncloak if a flashlight is burning nearby and slightly slowdown the uncloak(equal to the speedup) when a flashlight is on him. That way, if the survivor doesnt use the flashlight correctly, you could uncloak up to twice as fast for example. That could actually be a huge buff to Wraith. I always felt that blinding Spirit's husk, making it disappear, should also reveal Spirit again. This was initially so you could remove the terror radius, but blinding the husk simply took too long.
Reworking takes a lot of time, with a lot of considerations. Its not just simply slapping an idea onto a change, and every single killer would need to be looked at what would be a nice benefit for survivors and what would be a nice benefit for killers if survivors mess up(or if killers make survivors mess up).
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237280#Comment_3237280
By turning the nurse's teleported attack into a special attack, it would force to modify the whole game's skills working on attacks.
Because if we turn her basic attack into a special attack, she would not be able to use any skill based on the hit, which would be completely stupid.
The problem with making your second teleported attack a special attack is that in most cases, the hit is actually made during the second blink.
The first blink is often used to get closer to the target.
Sometimes you can hit the survivor on the first blink, but it is quite rare, and the more experienced survivors you face, the more anecdotal it becomes.
"You could argue that since Nurse doesn't play around loops normally that she shouldn't be rewarded normally"
That's why the survivors have to adopt a radically different behavior than if they were facing a "walking" killer.
Because the nurse is not impacted in the same way by the game environment, the survivors must use the environment differently.
I mean, hitting an m1 with a Nurse without blinking would only have that much more effect. Making her Spasmodic Breath a lot more dangerous for example. Even now, the biggest reason why Unrelenting is so underwhelming, is because of Nurse.
Lets look at the perks that Nurse wont have access to normally if her blink is an m2:
Sloppy Butcher, a scourge hook can solve that issue
Franklins Demise, which honestly, she doesnt really need anyway
Jolt, a Nurse with Pain Res and/or Ruin doesnt really need that anyway
Knock-out, no one really uses this as Nurse anyway, comms either negate the effect, or she can slug faster against soloQ with other perks
Save The Best For Last, not the main choice of perk for Nurse in general as Unrelenting would have more value, altho, I would argue that this would make Spasmodic Breath Nurse all the more lethal. So actually a bonus?
Exposed perks, which again, Nurse doesnt really need anyway. Starstruck is extremely oppressive on such a mobile killer(and Starstruck Nurse is the reason why Awakened Awareness was nerfed, so that would be really nice to have buffed again. NOED on Nurse is overkill(and Terminus would basically have the same effect as it overrides Adrenaline). Make Your Choice, for the same reason as Starstruck, would help a lot. I'd say the only shameful perks that would be missed are Devour Hope and Haunted Grounds. But again, this would give room to make Spasmodic Breath Nurse extremely dangerous.
Yet what do we get in return? A lot of killers and/or perks being able to be buffed. Buffs that M2 Nurse could benefit from too. Like Jolt being applied on special attacks too. Or some exposed perks being turned into a perk that instead of doubling the damage of an m1 into a perk that doubles the damage on m2 too.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236745#Comment_3236745
No more than 2 regression perks.
What is the composition of the build with which Supaalf is doing his marathon of chain victories, currently?
One anti-gen perk, one aura perk, one "exposed" perk and one terror radius perk.
So, everything should be forbidden, on the nurse...
The problem is not so much the perks as the people who face the nurse.
Even if of course, there are combos which are fatal. Ex : Midwich + Darkness Revealed 😫
This is exactly the reason why I consider Nurse to be the issue. The fact that a lot of perks have been nerfed because Nurse exists cant be counted on 2 hands anymore.
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@TheSubstitute said:
Nurse has a low kill rate in all MMRs. At high MMR she's above the median but not even in the top 5. The data released doesn't support any nerfs to Nurse.
In terms of the M2 attack, I'd rather see Pig get her attack changed back to an M1 if we want consistency. Legion is a different matter since their M2 applies Deep Wound but Pig's is just a straight movement speed buff and nothing else.
At high MMR her killrate is above 60%. No other killer comes close to Nurse.
She is still by far the most lethal killer in tournaments too, the only one coming close is Twins due to Twins being able to slow down the game massively through slugging.
The biggest reason why Nurse gets dealed with in the top 5% MMR is due to tournament SWFs and Nurse not having prepared a tournament build.
Seriously, every single high mmr survivor and killer would agree that Nurse is the strongest killer in the game. Plague makes an edge due to 3 man swfs and 1 random high mmr survivor, just a slight edge in comms. Thats not due to strength. Add comms to the game as a baseline, and Plague will drop. Same with Dredge and Wesker. 3 killers where not being able to share info between teammates that benefit heavily from it.
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Guys, look here, someone cherrypicking a single sentence removing all the context of the entire post!
I still stand by that notion. You can buff gen regression perks massively if they are treated like exhaustion perks. Overcharge starting at 100% going to 500% over time? Not an issue anymore since Call of Brine cant be stacked ontop of it. Ruin being at 300%? Doesnt matter that much, cant be combined with Pain Res and Jolt. Pop stacking power instead removing up to 100% after 5 hooks of not kicking a gen? It cant stack with CoB or Overcharge, so the overall slowdown is less. Thanatophobia reducing generator speeds by 10% per injured survivor? Cant be used together with Ruin, so overall its fine.
Genspeeds in general arent an issue anymore. Its the perks dealing with gens that are. On their own, they are often too weak to do anything significantly, giving you reasons to run more than 1. But then you can run 3, and at that point, especially for survivors without comms, its overkill and basically a guaranteed 3k.
Seriously, how could you possibly be against that idea when it opens up room for more perk variety while in general having the same regression as 2 perks combined? You could still run perks like Ruin and Call of Brine in the same logic that you can use perks like Dead Hard and Balanced Landing together. They simply no longer synergize.
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I mean, you have 4 survivors going for a very specific build and playstyle.
You could literally screenshot the opposite outcome of 4 random survivors facing against a Nurse with double recharge addons, Pain Res, DMS, Jolt and Floods of Rage and no one would be surprised at a 4k after only 5 minutes.
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@LunaticLizzie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233432#Comment_3233432
I wouldn't argue SWF is fine at the moment so much as I would argue that there really isn't much BHVR can do about the strength of SWF since so much of that strength comes from simply having access to comms, and the ability to plan out what your entire team's bringing as opposed to what just you are bringing like in solo.
One idea I had one night to buff solo que to put it on-par with SWF, so they can even the scales even just a little bit, is to just.. Let survivors see their team's loadouts in the lobby. Now, I'm no code-brainer, but I imagine that wouldn't be ENTIRELY too difficult to implement, since at least one part of that loadout is already fully visible (items) and the rest is just some perk/offering icon UI.
As for Nurse,
I can't say her potential is "higher" than SWF, since I've witnessed firsthand some damn-brutal SWFing that made me literally unable to play the game as a fairly strong killer like Artist just by three people camping a pallet with top-tier flashlights, Any Means Necessary, etc., making it so I'm kinda just screwed no matter what I do, but what I can say,
EASILY the most needed nerf to Nurse is just to have blink attacks count as specials and not basics. It's... Honestly kinda baffling that they still haven't implemented that yet, seeing as even Blight's lethal rushes are counted as specials, and far, FAR weaker killers also have healthstate-dealing attacks that aren't M1s counted as specials despite, on paper and in practice, being pretty damn similar to an M1 (Pig's dash for example, AKA M1 with extra steps).
And also,
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233414#Comment_3233414
- BHVR said themselves not to take the stats at face value
- That's lowest kill rate in the game AT ALL MMR, meaning pablogonzales2004 who just installed the game yesterday and happened to pick nurse also contributes to that statistic, as do more experienced players who try nurse a couple times and go "Man, I'm just losing over and over and over, I'm just gonna not do this and stick to a killer I can land a single attack with".
The thing is, SWF is fine, there isnt anything they can do that solo queue cant do. Yes, they could communicate info, but that is kinda to be expected and overall, modern dbd is balanced with that in mind(back in the day, being a solo survivor was basically what being a duo is today, and SWF back in the day was basically equal to what a 7 blink Nurse would be in today's meta).
People often try to point at killers and consider them to be the golden standard when it comes to balance, but realistically, that falls apart as killers dont face other killers. SWF is the golden standard when it comes to balance. Solo survivor and killers need to be balanced around SWF. You literally cannot nerf SWF without killing the game, nor can you actively buff survivor without buffing SWF(why do you think the information update, which was promised almost a year ago, still hasnt been released? It's really difficult to give survivors a non-verbal way of sharing info with other teammates, without buffing SWF. Personally, I feel like survivors need at least a killer instinct-like feature to locate teammates.). And for killers and solo survivors to be able to be buffed, Nurse needs to be nerfed(blight too, but blight needs it much less).
When you have an issue around killers, where 75% of the roster has issues the moment communications are introduced, and out of the remaining 25%, only 2 killers are capable of consistently winning against hardcore communications, then you have 2 killers who are extremely overpowered in relation to 90% of the other killers. Preferably, the gap between Myers and Nurse should be 15% in killrate when facing S-tier survivor squads. Myers being at the low end of 55%(2.1 kills on average), and Nurse close to 70%(2.8 kills on average). But right now, I am fairly certain that Myers doesnt even appear in S-tier survivor squad matches because he cant even reach that type of survivor. This doesnt indicate that Myers is an underpowered killer(I mean, his basekit does need some love, for sure, but overall, he's quite a solid killer), but that killer overall is underpowered compared to SWF.
Yet on the whole spectrum, killer is overpowered compared to survivor, but that is due to the gap between solo survivor and SWF being far larger than Myers and Nurse. Even if the current best Myers would go against S-tier survivors, he would still have a killrate of about 30% because there are many ways he can secure a kill(tombstone piece, camping with perma t3, mass slugging) and the current best Nurse would currently have an average killrate of 70% easily. That's "only" a gap of 40%, including the fact that Myers is already due a bit of a basekit buff overall.
Yet, the average escape rates of the current best SWF's can be close to 90%, where focussing on 1 person escaping can easily guarantee their win. Yet the highest solo q survivors can have escape rates of 40%. Thats a 50% gap. (gotta make a note here, these numbers arent taken from anywhere and are by no means accurate in their number, they simply are to represent the state of balance relative to each other)
Nurse is "healthy" at her 70% in the highest ranks. Especially considering the 60% average killrates. But with the rest of the killers in the highest ranks dropping to 45% or even lower means that killers need a basekit buff. But that demands a nerf on Nurse and Blight. This also allows for survivors to recieve a relatively minor buff for SWF, which will hugely impact solo survivors and close the gap between solo and SWF.
As for the most needed nerf on Nurse, well, I'd actually say she's in dire need of an addon pass. Because even if a Nurse doesnt use M1 perks, she still slaps heavily. Her recharge and distance addons are overkill for her basekit. Her other addons barely see the light of day. Make her M1 an M2, and you still suffer from those problems. Nurse without addons is nearly powerful enough to consistently face the highest tiers of survivors without relying on m1 perks. Key point being nearly. Meaning you can fully rework her addons and make her an m2 killer, and then she'd underperform. Which opens up another basekit killer buff(personally, I would focus on practically useless killer mechanics right now, like vaulting windows, checking/interacting with lockers, focussing on all 4 survivors rewarding killers and focussing on 1 or 2 being more punishing to killers which is the opposite of the current meta). This would also allow for more in-depth changes in basekits on both sides, because you could consider a variable to killers where if they are facing survivors who have higher winrates than you do, you gain a relative buff untill 1 survivor dies(discouraging tunneling), and if you are facing survivors with lower winrates than you do, they gain a relative buff that they keep untill they finished 3 gens before 1 survivor dies(meaning they keep the buff if 1 survivor dies before the 3rd gen is popped, or maybe increase the effects of the buff if that happens, discouraging tunneling). This would mess with SBMM, but it would also make a match a lot more fair as there is only so much you can prepare for. Killers cant switch characters when they encounter a SWF, survivors cant leave without penalty if they encounter a sweaty Nurse. Giving the side that is playing with the biggest handicap a buff.
These are all just ideas pulled from nowhere, and they all have different balancing implications, but at this point, Nurse is a monster at tunneling survivors. DS doesnt deter her, Off The Record doesnt deter her, BT+Guardian(which is a 17% speedboost btw) doesnt deter her. This alone is awful gamedesign without any indication of wanting to nerf Nurse, especially considering that they wanted 6.0 to be the update that "fixed" camping and tunneling.
Which is basically my biggest demand that killers like Nurse deserve a nerf ASAP anyway, because 6.0 was promised to be the patch that made chases overall easier, combat camping and tunneling, remove the boring slowdown meta. And what did we end up with? A boring slowdown meta, easier chases, nothing to combat camping and the changes to tunneling dont matter because the slowdown and easier chases make even killers like Trapper and Pig extremely easy to tunnel with, without too much hassle.
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@burt0r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232909#Comment_3232909
What i mean is, if they nerf nurse aka the killer with the highest potential but leave swf alone, the survivor tool for the highest potential, (which we will probably never see), then i am curious to see how the community might explode again.
And if the devs then would manage to balance for that and if it would be fast enough or be a glacial pace like Mori/nerf mistimed changes.
I mean, Nurse literally has a higher potential than the highest SWF at the moment. SWF is fine as it is, Nurse isnt.
Nurse is preventing buffs to killer. Buffing killers in general by 5% is like buffing Nurse by 20%. You need to nerf Nurse to buff killers.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216195#Comment_3216195
Oh I was a bit blind I guess XD.
True, Spirit's addons were almost all insane, but 2 S tier addons on a S tier killer are 2 too much imo especially since the Iron Will nerf. I really don't mind a lot of Nurse's addons (even recharge and range), the just need to get adjusted a bit. I'm just sick of Nurses who stack insta-downs or slow downs like Starstruck and Jolt, so I hope they will make her blink hits M2.
Freddy's slow down addons were terrible for the game, true. I never really used them, because of how boring they were. Now his addons are mostly trash, his basekit is nerfed and the perk changes also hit him hard. I would love if they would bring back more of his old kit from before the rework.
Well, a big issue with Nurse and her recharge addons, is that it makes her gap closing beyond insane.
Current basekit Nurse, if she misses you after 2 blinks, gives survivors 3 seconds to run away per blink charge, which equals 12 meters. Nurse herself can walk towards the survivors to make this distance smaller, and moves about 2-3 meters while charging and moving during fatique, if she decides to blink then. Getting a second charge gives survivors another 12 meters for up to 24 meters away from where they used to be, while Nurse can move about 7-8 meters away from where she was. Then she uses 2 more seconds to fully charge the first blink, which is 20 meters, which gives survivors an additional 8 meters, while Nurse is able to move up to another 2 meters. Giving survivors a gained distance of 22 meters on Nurse, while Nurse can move 20 meters upon blinking(albeit in a straight line). But Nurse has a second blink, and since she is within 5 meters of you, she can quite easily blink towards the survivor and almost guarantee a hit. This is ignoring line of sight and mindgames, or assuming both players play perfectly with line of sight and mindgames. But this is exactly why Nurse, even without addons, is the apex killer of the game. Extremely powerful chase power since it ignores obstacles, while forcing survivors through obstacles(reducing their gained distance even further), and its why most Nurses used to rely on Shadowborn and Aura reading perks, before Starstruck came out.
Recharge addons tip the scale of balance immensely here, and can turn an already difficult game into a nearly impossible one, especially without comms. Her distance addons also had similar reasoning there. Both addons increased the gap that Nurse could close, while decreasing the time survivors had to think to get away, with the distance addons having the benefit on top of that, that she could blink 28 meters at the same speed as 20 meters. Meaning you cover more distance, in less time. Her blinkspeed is now capped, so she cant blink faster anymore, but her distance addons still close the gap faster(albeit much healthier than before).
Having a killer who in basekit can already go toe to toe with SWF on comms, having 2 addons that make her power 10 times harder to deal with, is a bit overkill. Hence I am actually for a lot of Nurse addons being more like Spasmodic Breath, its a completely different way of having to face Nurse, sometimes even more difficult(since Spasmodic Breath Nurse uses VERY different perks in very different ways). Because then a game against Nurse isnt going to be like "did she use double recharge addons or did she use distance addons", and its more going to be like "oh #########, what type of Nurse are we going to face?".
As for Freddy's "old" kit(oldest kit), it's mostly placed into Sadako, balanced towards modern day DBD. We've basically been begging for ancient Freddy for years already(the one where you show yourself to survivors, and then go the other way while you were invisible again), while letting him keep the ability to teleport to gens. She doesnt have the aura reading(that would be extremely OP in current day meta), but she is by far the closest you can be to ancient Freddy without being too weak.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
Flashlight add-on need no changes. They have 3 main combos each exaggerating the a specific strength of flashlights.
The first is purple utility flashlight with focused len+High-end Sapphire lens. The main statistic to focus on within these two add-on is 25% Increase in range distance on a flashlight. With both add-on, It increases range of flashlight by +10 meters. Killer refers to this type of flashlight as SNIPER flashlights because these flashlight are designed for purposes of flashlight saves.
I am not joking, but you can stand 20+ meters away from killer and if killer picks a survivor up and they are not looking directly at wall, you can flashlight save from 20 METERS away. This is arguably strongest flashlight in the game because it grants teammate decisive strike.
Second flashlight is known as the unlimited flashlight, used with green flashlight. The add-on to use green flashlight are battery+Low amp filament. This is the type of flashlight that clickers use a ton because flashlight litterally lasts forever. Its super powerful vs killer like Hag or Wraith because you can just spam the flashlight to disable traps and stun the wraith in his cloak forever.
Yellow flashlight is for pallet-blinding and window-vaulting. You can use Intense halogen+Tir Optics. With both add-on, you can get 35% blindness duration. Default blind is 2 seconds, so with 35% blindness duration, it becomes 2.7 seconds. Its almost 3 second blind. Its really long blind that you can use it to mindgame loops. You can window tech killers if you blind them during a window vault. You can use it to walk forward when the killer breaks a pallet since many killer will be disoriented on their position since killer normally look down when performing a pallet action. There is advanced technique that lower-skilled killer fall for which is called chain-blinding. This is where when killer is recovering from a blind, you can chain-blind them to extend duration. With chain-blinding you can blind killer for like +6 seconds with these add-on's.
Some killer recommend running lightborn to counter chain-blinding but all you need to do as killer is look down or look up while walking forward when blinded. Flashlight is one of those high-skill cap items to use. its not too useful in soloq because of lack of coordination but you can use it.
They're just weakening flashlights because certain toxic survivor mains couldn't stop flashlight clicking in killer ears which is annoying. Killers typically has their volume a bit higher because they need to hear survivor's moaning sounds when they're injured for mindgame purposes over super loud chase music. I personally wish killer could turn off chase music. Its ultra-annoying having a survivor spam flashlight clicking in their ears.
Flashlight addons need no changes? There is literally HALF of the addons that are not worth running because they either dont do anything, or they have too many addons that do the same thing but better.
As for flashlight clicking, not toxic behaviour. It doesnt do anything toxic. It is intended to annoy the killer so they would stop doing what they do to chase them instead. That's like saying slugging at any point in the game is toxic, because its super annoying for the slugged survivor, when there are plenty of reasons to slug(baiting a teammate out, buying a bit extra time, avoiding DS for whatever reason). But its super annoying and survivors cant play while slugged.
Calling something toxic because its annoying is super entitled. Toxic behaviour requires quite a bit of the following: Unsupportive and unpleasant behaviour, being manipulative, judgmental, controlling and self-centered. So lets go down the list:
- unsupportive and unpleasant behaviour. Supportivity doesnt matter as you're on the opposite sides of each other, and since you're on opposite sides, behaviour that is supportive and pleasant to their teammates can be unsupportive and unpleasant towards you. Thats doesnt make it toxic.
- being manipulative, the only manipulation between players here is trying to gain each others trusts while being on opposing teams, and then one(or both) betraying the other. This doesnt happen with flashlights, and the other behaviour is often the most fun and memorable a game can be as both parties basically consent to it.
- judgmental, well, maybe if survivors click a lot when you fell into a hole it can be considered judgmental, but laughing about something isnt necessarily judgmental.
- Controlling, I'm skipping this one because its ridiculous to be controlled by a flashlight
- self-centered, well, again, odds are that people use flashlights to pull you away from someone more vulnerable.
You being annoyed by something doesnt make it toxic. Especially if you can do something about it to instantly make it stop(i.e. falling for the bait and chasing them).
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@blue4zion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216240#Comment_3216240
I'd love something simple like this as well, I'd really like to have the broken key have longer aura reads too, as well as having its own separate model to further avoid the possible tunnel cuz "oh no key", itll still happen because some killers will fear that last survivor reopening the hatch if they close it.
If a killer tunnels because of key, when they can already slug in a 2v1, just in case that 10% of games where the killer never finds the other survivor before bleedout time and they can then use the key to reopen the gate, is simply the sign of either a super insecure or a very boosted killer.
The only reason I think killers might tunnel out people with keys is because they missed the hatch update and think hatch can still spawn with multiple people around.
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@blue4zion said:
I wish the keys would get an addon pass, as in remove most addons from the Key and make something new to use all these Aura effects.
Sure, its not as bad anymore but just having a key is like a flag to be tunneled or camped. Even if its just a broken for auras, because the killer can't tell.
It'd like to see some kind of Rune or Tome they could use instead to channel the aura effects.
I honestly think Keys are by far the most balanced addons. Its the keys themselves that need a rework, because the only key you can use the aura reading on is the Skeleton Key.
All you need to do to make the addons of the keys actually usable and interesting:
Skeleton Key: Currently 30 second aura reading+opens the hatch -> turn it into 15 seconds aura reading+opening the hatch
Dull Key: 5 seconds+opening the hatch -> perfectly balanced as is.
Broken Key: 10 second aura reading and cant open hatch -> turn it into 45 seconds of aura reading(yes, 45) without being able to open the hatch.
The broken key right now is only really good enough for survivor aura reading, and even then, its not great.
A balancing issue could be Blood Amber, but you can always counteract that by increasing key draining from 200% to 250% or even 300%.
That way, not a single specific key is worth tunneling or camping for(because they dont work unless they are the last ones left anyway), but they each have a different loadouts that are good for those keys.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216163#Comment_3216163
You can still do "regular clicking", that was the point of the change. All it did was reduce the frequency you can spam it while replacing the sound with one more akin to a mechanical "switch" flashlight rather than a button press one.
but it will affect the taunting effect that flashlights hadis literally your entire argument. If a "technique" only has any value due to it being unbearably obnoxious and/or physically affecting someone as a result of these things, it is not even remotely a healthy thing for the game.
No, you cant do the regular clicking. The regular clicking would be about 4-5 clicks per second(aka, a delay of 0.2-0.25). This is good enough to also realign your flashlight if you missed the timing by a fraction.
The delay on the PTB is more like 0.6-0.75.
"is literally your entire argument. If a "technique" only has any value due to it being unbearably obnoxious and/or physically affecting someone as a result of these things, it is not even remotely a healthy thing for the game."
Its not my entire argument at all. But its still quite an important factor. Taunting the killer to get them off your teammates is not "obnoxious" nor physically affecting someone. The problem is that currently there is no delay at all, and the presented delay is too big that its gamechanging in flashlight savings while also removing the effective tauntability.
Taunting the opponent is healthy, so clicking is fine. The problem is the 0s cooldown, but 0.6s is also problematic. That is my argument
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2162224#Comment_2162224
Hmmmmmm.....
Spirit: MD Ring, Amulet
Nurse: Recharge and range
Blight: C33, Ring, (Iri tag)
Plague: Black Incense
and btw: Freddy is not A Tier anymore. he was, but now he's more like low B/ high C Tier for different reasons (multiple nerves to his kit)
Yeah, this post is also a year and a half old, Freddy had some additional nerfs other than the addons, some introduced after this patch went live. Gotta be careful before judging things.
As for the addons listed:
Yeah, Spirit has 2 addons that are a bit strong, but thats it, almost all her addons used to be A or S tier, now she only has 2 A tier addons.
Nurse is likely going to recieve an addon pass or a mini rework(turning her blink hits into m2 attacks) or both before 2023 arrives, if not at the start of 2023.
Blight's addons are on the rework list
Freddy's addons used to all be S or A tier on an A tier killer. His basekit was already powerful and his addons were simply disgusting at slowing down games or downing people quick. Games against him were almost guaranteed to be boring and that deserved to be gutted. They did it too much, sure, but it did need to be done.
Similar argument for window setups, pallet spawns, perk nerfs etc. If its a guaranteed snooze, its always a lose.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211462#Comment_3211462
So flashlights are only capable of grabbing a killers attention if they sound like a broken rotor?
Not exactly sure how that affects the Killer's binary decision. I promise you they'll still hear the clicks if you do them. They will also still make whatever choice they choose to make.
Thats macro clicking, not what I was talking about. I was talking about regular clicking. And yes, it actually does affect killer decision making, because you'd be surprised how many killers would keep chasing me/teammates who clicked or stopped chasing survivors to go after someone who clicked the "normal" way.
It might not affect all decision making, but it will affect the taunting effect that flashlights had. I am not saying there should be no delay, but that the current delay is "quite a significant delay". Aka, its too big.
They could reduce the time by 2 or by 4, and add an anti-epilepsy mode(where the flashlight simply doesnt show a beam, instead just lights up a ball around the flashlight). Keeps in the taunting effect of the flashlight, without having epilepsy or broken rotors as a side effect, but also putting back in the moment when you are slightly off in timing and need to break the beam for a short moment.
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@foxsansbox said:
Don't understand your original premise. Survivors can still get the attention of killers in the middle of a chase using their flashlight.
Well, with the 6.3 update, there will be quite a significant delay between clicks. Not enough to take away the attention.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Yes. I would be happy if a lot of Add Ons and Items get changed, combined, deleted.
E.g. you dont need 3 Flashlights, 2 are enough. Most Flashlight Add Ons (everything aside from Batteries and the Filament) are useless.
You dont need two Maps, one Map would be ok (The Rainbow-Map) and all Add Ons which give the ability to track something can just be removed.
You dont need 3 Keys at this point, one would be enough. Same with Toolboxes, no need to have a Gajillion of them.
This would greatly reduce the amount of Bloodweb-Items in the Survivor Bloodweb. Currently they have 3 times as many Items compared to Killers, so reducing that number a bit would be great to have a higher chance to get what you actually want.
At some point I made a proposal that Items should be removed and just be replaced with a Power which can be equipped to the Survivor. And this can be further upgraded with Add Ons. This would remove all the Items from the Bloodweb and replace them with a Dropdown-Menu where you can choose if you want to have a Toolbox, Medkit, Flashlight, Map or Key. And then the Add Ons should be combined, deleted and changed to reflect this.
But this is a big rework, so I would be totally fine with revisiting the Add Ons and Items and remove some of them which are not needed anymore or dont do anything.
I disagree with things being deleted tho. Combined and reworked would definitely be the preference. More options is better. My issue with a lot of the addons, especially survivor addons, is that they dont offer many different options. I made a post months ago how I basically have 3 million worth in BP of Myers addons that will never be used because there are at least 2 better options of the same type available.
But I'll go deeper with my reasoning:
As for 3 keys, well, I'd actually be for a slight key rework: Skeleton Key: 15 seconds of aura, can open hatch, Rusty Key: 5 seconds of aura reading, can open hatch. Broken Key: 45 seconds of aura reading, cant open hatch. This would give the purple key basically the ability to only open hatch. The pink key would be a hybrid of both and be powerful in its own right, while the green key would gain a huge advantage of the aura addons, but cant be used to open hatch. 3 very different playstyles while having 3 keys.
The same could be said for flashlights: 1 based on beam range, 1 based on battery life and 1 based on blindness duration, with the addons amplifying that part or making hybrids.
Maps, well, I am honestly at a point where I am in favor of 2 types of maps, both for the purposes of the average match having basically infinite duration, but one being able to track survivor-related objectives(gens, hatch, gates, chests) and the other being able to track killer-related objectives(hooks, totems, and maybe gives away killer "scratchmarks" so you can see if the killer was nearby). This would need a rebalancing of addons, but thats kinda needed anyway.
Toolboxes, my biggest gripe isnt the amount of toolboxes, but that hook focussed toolboxes can be used on gens and gen focussed toolboxes can be used on hooks. This overall makes Commodius by far the best toolbox in the game as it can be used for both purposes. I think they need to remove some accessibility, give hooks 3 toolboxes(1 based on sabo speed, 1 based on hook respawn time, 1 hybrid), gens 3 toolboxes(1 based on speed, one based on silencing generator sounds(all sounds, not just personal repair ones), and 1 hybrid) and keep them seperated.
Because really, what is the issue with survivor bloodwebs if things are useful? If anything needs to be removed to remove clutter, its the bloodpoint offerings that only increase the bloodpoints gained in 1 catagory. Let alone map offerings.