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@dugman said:
Cool stats. Otz’s stats look a little similar to mine in some ways. His kill rate is a bit higher (I’m running about 70%, he’s 76%), which makes me feel like maybe I’m higher MMR than I thought. 🤷♂️ Also his top killers including Doctor and Sadako and Freddy line up with mine. I think that might be because they’re basic chase killers so don’t need as much regular practice to be good with them compared to, say, Nurse or Huntress, for example.
Also this lines up with my own experience for the new RPD maps being pretty killer friendly and corn maps being not so killer friendly.
Thanks for putting in the work on this, it’s interesting. 🙂
Im actually quite certain that the top killers are more like that due to them having a playstyle that focusses on not chasing survivors much. You'd be surprised how quickly killrates increase if you stop a chase after injuring a survivor. Because either they heal up, keeping 2 survivors busy at the same time, or they dont heal up and you can down them when you catch them off-guard.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
How long is the cooldown? I am just wondering because there were legit times when you thought you had an angle and had to cancel and restart. I am interested to see how long in between each time it is.
Its too long to miss. At this point they honestly should bring back blindness based on brightness. Flashlights are good items, but their addons are horrendous. I did a quick review with friends and deduced the following:
Medkits: 1 relatively bad addon, but still usable(abdominal dressing)
Toolboxes: 1 horrible addon thats practically useless(Spring Clamp, only reduces your sounds, but not the sounds of the generator or your teammates) and 1 niche addon (Instructions)
Maps: 3 addons that are useless for the rainbowmap, but okay for the green one, 1 meme addon(glass bead)
Keys: all solid addons
Flashlights: half the addons(yes, exactly half) are basically worthless, anything less than 20% blindness duration is not worth much, brightness doesnt do anything at all, and flashlight accuracy basically does nothing at all. The only addons worth running are: Broken Bulb, Sapphire Lens, Intense Halogen, Long Life Battery, Focus Lens, Heavy Duty Battery and Low Amp Filament. The rest is either useless in-game or useless because there are addons that do the same but better.
With this Flashlight nerf, I really hope they do an addon pass for the flashlight. Odd Bulb sounds nice, untill you realize all it does in-game is increase blindness duration by 25% while reducing battery life by 14%. Intense Halogen increases duration by 20% with no drawbacks. So why would you ever use the Odd Bulb?
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@oxygen said:
Seeing items and what survivors people choose is fine. Everything else should go in my opinion.
Personally my biggest gripe is that Killers could take perks that can fully negate an item and perhaps even certain perks. If I have a daily archive to blind a killer 8 times in 1 single game, and therefor brought a flashlight, flashbang and blastmine, the killer can just slap on lightborn and make it impossible for me to do my challenge.
I do think its important to show that a survivor has equipped an item, but not which item.
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I think Pig is overall fine. But I think that an active beartrap should give away the location of their specific key after 2.5 minutes. Since you can only reach 2.5 minutes if you've been chased by Pig while wearing the trap, or hooked/downed during that time. Once the key is revealed, triple the jigsaw search speed.
This would give players the possibility to prevent forced head-popping by bodyblocking the player who was tunneled. This is pretty much the only thing you can give to survivors without heavily nerfing the standard Pig gameplay.
On the other end, I do feel like Pig's basekit crouch speed needs a buff. Ghostface has access to an instadown and crouches faster. Pig would really benefit from faster crouch speeds, since players would gain triple speed after 2.5 minutes, Pig cant use this crouch speed to camp and proxy-tunnel survivors to let the time go down, since other players can bodyblock.
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@oporopolist said:
"They even SPECIFICALLY left out people who had their character to P3 level 50."
You are missing the point I think. Why would their be a boost for P3L50? You already got P9 for them. The whole point was +2 bonus P for each of the *****old 3 levels***** of prestige!
Sure, but before they changed it, my p3lvl50 characters with all perks would be prestige 15-ish, and my character that was p0lvl50 would be about prestige 2.
So yeah, they specifically left them out
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@CosmicScarab said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200522#Comment_3200522
Slugging is the counter though. Against good altruistic survivors they will go down in the open for flashlight saves or near pallets for pallet saves. You can't hook trade if you aren't able to hook and there is where slugging as a counter comes in. With slugging being removed there is no counterplay and swfs just get stronger and stronger.
Not really, you're assuming that the changes mentioned remain the same untill they go live. I can practically assure you that Rancor will be reworked. Let alone that things like Mangled could also afflict self-recovery now.
Why do you think that the only perk afflicting self-recovery, knock out, only reduces it by 15% right now? Because it would be overkill if it was less. Slugged survivors already take forever to pick themselves up, if they have the right perks, no need to slow that down further. I mean, sure, Pentimento has 30%, but whenever a killer gets 3 stacks of Pentimento, they are on their way to light the other 2 totems.
So really, I am certain that either Rancor will be reworked to slow down self-recovery, or that Mangled will affect it.
The logic comes down to if you are able to slug for longer than 45 seconds, you can also hook survivors and not lose pressure.
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@mischiefmanaged said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200522#Comment_3200522
Hook trading is really only employed by bad survivors. It's mostly just a suicide pact and gives the killer a bunch of free pressure and easy chases. It's not good strategy for the survivor unless the person being traded with is about to enter second stage or be sacrificed and there's literally no other choice.
The altruism I'm talking about are pallet saves or other flashlight saves. Slugging is also the primary way of punishing survivors who grouped up on a generator and prioritized it over healing themselves.
If you are never picked up from a slug, it's because your team misplayed massively or you crawled to a corner where the killer couldn't find you so you could try to wiggle out. Playing survivor is a team game.
You might find it boring but I find games involving slugging to be some of the most fun. There's nothing more boring than chasing one survivor, downing them easily, then repeating that while the other 3 survivors stick to generators. Chasing multiple survivors at the same time and interacting with multiple survivors is fun for me.
Bad AND Altruistic survivors.
As for pallet and flashlight saves, eh, not really that altruistic. Its standard gameplay, if you're nearby or in need of stuns/saves for archives, its very selfish. In full SWF's its altruistic, but thats a very small amount of players.
As for playing survivor being a team game, thats kinda the issue: There is no comms, no pings, no aura's on where your teammates are, no info on how far a generator is progressed while someone else is on it. Survivors are a team untill they are about to die, then they are on their own. If you are never picked up as a slug, yeah, your team misplayed, but YOU are being punished, not your team.
As for chasing multiple survivors and wanting to slug, there currently isnt really any perks to slow down self-recovery other than Knock-out, and even that one is very minor. The reason for this is due to there being no self-pick up.
I am almost guaranteeing that Rancor or Bitter Murmur is going to affect self-recovery. Because they are too similar right now with Rancor no longer having the instakill. Other than that, I can even see Haemorrhage and Mangled affecting self-recovery now because of the self-pickup.
So honestly, dont worry about that part too much. Worst case scenario, chasing multiple survivors isnt gonna be viable for a short time. Which is honestly not too bad. I mean, survivors have been forced to watch their teammate hide or get killed for 4 minutes while they bled out. Chasing survivors 1 at a time is nowhere near that horrible. Less fun, sure, but still a better temporary option. Preferrably, they will merge Bitter Murmur and Rancor into one of the perks, while the other gets a rework so you have a 20% slow on self-recovery on downed survivors. Giving you plenty of time to end the chase, pick up the first survivor and be on time for the other one too.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3192017#Comment_3192017
i got no notification of your post. your suggestion is more specific but general layout of how keys worked was similar to old keys. hatch is bad design because hatch mechanic towards killer is rng mechanic for the killer where there is little consistency for the killer to control hatch escapes. Technically, you can memorize the hatch spawns location on every map to improve your consistency however the survivor can also do that.
let us imagine this scenario, The killer, hooks random number of times and he killed two survivors. There are two survivors remaining and say 3 gens have been completed. With your mechanic or dev old hatch mechanic with keys, The deciding factor whether killer wins or loses is based off whether survivor finds the hatch and both survivor jump through the hatch. It discounts anything the killer did precious to get into win position in order for survivor to still win. it does not make much sense for the killer player that worked hard to get into winning position to lose randomly. at that point, hatch is suppose to be more of closing to the match similar to end game collapse where your trying not lose as survivor and the killer will win the match. the only difference for him is how hard he wins which is why 3k and 4k is almost same thing in DBD. Its like, did you win ultra hard or just win? Same thing in the end. this another reason why kill-rates are misleading in dbd for killer because the killer can lose a bunch of times with 1-2 kills and also win bunch times with 4 kills even though 2 kills meant nothing and 4 kills made no difference in winning compare 3k.
This is why some players used to compare keys to mori's because they allowed survivor to "skip"' their generator objective similarly how mori's allowed you to skip the survivor's hook-states. Brand new parts that completed gens in 5 seconds were same story. that is in short why I do not like the items too much in dbd because they ended up being too game-changing.
TL:DR you definitely shouldn't be playing for win when the killer is in a winning position.
Yeah, but here's the problem with the end of your statement: Survivors arent exactly a team. Their ratings are individual. So if the killer is in a winning position, you should play for your individual escape and get out while you can. The killer still wins, you just dont get screwed over by your teammates.
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@mischiefmanaged said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200427#Comment_3200427
If you notice, I haven't mentioned anything about the automatic Mori mechanism. I've only complained about the basekit unbreakable and how the pickup speed is ridiculously fast for how powerful it is.
If you slug all 4 survivors at the same time, sure let's just end the match. No need to wait 4 minutes for the bleedout timer. If your problem is with the 4 minute bleedout after everyone is slugged, then sure give the killer a win.
But this change isn't just a "the game is over if everyone is slugged". This is a basekit way to prevent that situation from ever happening and removing huge parts of killer gameplay and strategy.
Slugging is THE counter to altruistic survivor play. If someone is under a pallet or going for a flashlight save, slugging the person and going after the altruistic survivor is THE play. And it then requires a third survivor to come for the pickup which takes somebody off of a generator. If the survivors leave them slugged to prioritize a generator, then you get two hooks (which a generator for two hooks is usually good for the survivors in my experience). If they go to pick up the slug, you delay the game a bit and prevent a generator from popping.
Now the survivors get both! Just because someone threatened to do a pallet or flashlight save. With the new unbreakable, it's actually a better idea to leave your teammate slugged. There's no reason to get off of your objective to go pick them up. The amount of time spent going to pick them up and the risk of grouping up with your teammates is worse than just leaving them slugged to pick themselves up. It completely removes that aspect of the game.
Yeah, its because slugging is boring. And Slugging isnt THE counter to altruistic survivor play. Hooktrading is. Slugging has been an issue for 2 years now where its simply too boring. You can spend 32 seconds recovering and never be picked up. Thats horrible game design.
As for picking up teammates, yeah, sure, with Unbreakable its a good idea to leave your teammate slugged. IF the killer slugs. With the way that killrates have been going, the main factor why there is a 39% escape rate is due to slugging. This needs to be closer to 50%. Combatting slugging is THE way to fix that issue.
Does it mean that 3k's are going to be less common? Yeah, definitely. But thats supposed to be like that. Slugging currently gives an unfair advantage. The fix that will be live on PTB will still give killers an advantage, but it will no longer be unfair.
Are there some issues with this? Yeah, in very high MMR there is, but the fix to that would be to increase pick up and hooking animations, and slightly increase movementspeed while carrying a survivor.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3192045#Comment_3192045
I’m not sold on this idea but if survivors where given a guaranteed escape it would me the same would go for killers.
Oh yeah, but killers already have certain ways of guaranteeing kills. Like camping with certain addons(or bubba), tunneling against SoloQ(which guarantees an early kill with practically no risk), slugging for a 4k etc.
Those matter right now, because there is no survivor equivalent to it. Give something to survivors that is relatively equal, and killers who camp and tunnel have the risk of giving survivors a free escape, survivors are given the incentive to not go for hooks and remain on a gen to unlock their escape, and killers can counterplay that by keeping them off gens. Essentially, the more killers intervene with survivors, the more likely they are to get more kills, where if killers dont intervene with survivors, the less likely they get more kills.
Currently, this isnt the case. Killers are incentivised to intervene with 1-2 survivors(out of the 4) to try and rush their first kill, and because it can be hard to cooperate as survivors, they can often get a kill with 3 generators remaining against soloq with a second kill relatively close.
Personally, the only thing that killers need, is basekit devour speed buff. Once they hooked a survivor, give them 20 seconds of 10% increased movementspeed to find a new target ASAP, and you can prevent pretty much anyone from escaping early on without finishing all gens.
In the end, if you both play optimally you have an EGC where only 1 survivor could have a guaranteed escape(if they didnt die already), and the killer could camp for a guaranteed kill. Giving both sides an equal option to escape. And killers rushing kills would be met with survivors rushing their personal escape.
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@HugTheHag said:
The whole purpose of the update is to make Moris more common and appreciate the animations better ??
Why would the moris be removed from Rancor and Devour Hope ?
I get that the effect given in return for Devour is theoretically equivalent (though it's really not as good since if you down someone in a dead zone, you can't kill them as quickly anymore).
But a big part of using Devour Hope (or Ebony Moris) is to see the Mori several times in the game. Specifically Devour, to be rewarded for playing fairly with cool animations.
Devour Hope was already a fragile perk since it could be broken anytime once people realise you have 3 tokens, now at 5 someone can break it after you've downed the survivor, on the way to the hook, and now it's just a normal hook ?
And if that survivor is one that already had 2 hook stages from earlier in the game, Devour 5 gives you literally 0 value from it ?
I really, really detest this change and hope it will not come to live...
Devour Hope is personally the biggest gripe I have with it, Rancor doesnt really matter much tbh. But even then, I see this as a positive change.
That gives the devs a mean to consider a bleed-out to also be a tie through MMR(right now, Devour, Rancor, Bleedouts and Mori's give the Killed effect), and on the other side, it gives Devour amazing synergy with hook perks now. Like, having 1 gen left, 5 stacks of devour and 4 survivors alive? Hook them on Pain Resonance to buy yourself some extra time while not even needing to care if the survivor is dead.
As for the Mori's. Lets be honest, they are mediocre with the 2 hook requirement, and too powerful with only 1 hook requirement. They were due for a rework. What I do wonder is why the Mori's dont increase the amount of survivors being Mori'd too. Cypress making the killer kill 2 at the same time, Ivory 3 at the same time and Ebony 4 at the same time. It would add a niche animation thats actually very challenging to get, while also guaranteeing a shitton of BP even if you dont make it.
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@mischiefmanaged said:
I mean unbreakable will literally be the best perk in the game and Twins will now be completely unplayable.
I don't like to be overly dramatic and make fun of a bunch of people who are, but this is a terrible update. Slugging is both a valid strategy and commonly a required strategy for the killer to win. Getting multiple downs very quickly and snowballing is an absolute requirement at high levels of play. Making it so unbreakable literally causes you to pick yourself up repeatedly every 20 seconds makes it the strongest perk in the game.
Twins is already a priority due for a rework, and I dont think they will release this on live servers untill they altered Twins too. Any strategy that is repeatable and viable that requires players to not play the game for 4 minutes is simply an unhealthy strategy.
Besides, Slugging in general is simply super boring, being unable to do anything for 4 full minutes while being forced to stay in the game is boring. Not even talking that there basically is no risk for killers to end chase quickly.
This is a very healthy change, and a very neccesary one. There might be some downsides to it in higher MMR, but thats negligable compared to the downsides the current system has. Let alone that those downsides are much easier to fix.
Thats not even talking about the simple fact that a downed survivor is a survivor that cant work on gens. And Unbreakable wont be the most powerful perk in the game. Maybe for current meta, but that meta will change. How many killers do you think will slug for 22 seconds after knowing Unbreakable can pick survivors up multiple times? They wont. They will spend maybe 10 seconds on getting a second down, and then be forced back to hook or have that survivor being downed again.
Thats a very healthy risk factor. You decide to use the slug to either slow down the game while you chase someone else, or you pick up the slug to get a hook state. Right now, there is NO risk to slugging someone. Its literally just a free hooked survivor without needing to hook.
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@Ciabe said:
Statistics are the best liars.
I don't doubt 39% is the actual mean of escape rate for all survivors from all matches globally. However, that is masking a very big lie through omission with selective statistical presentation. Pre Patch BHVR happily released perk usage rate by MMR tier to justify itself. Note how they did NOT break down escape rate by MMR this time. The reason is quite simple.
High MMR SWF survivors probably have an escape rate of 50-75% going off data I can find and I think most true high mmr killers would concur. Those high mmr survivors also play a lot of games. So you have a small subset of your playerbase, maybe 10-20% who play lots of games that are skewing the number higher to 39% (which already seems painfully low).
So this means our low and medium mmr survivors are likely seeing escape rates of 15-25%, 30% tops. My own data from just under 400 games since 6.x patch pegs it around 15-20% (yes I'm probably low tier mmr now) and I've seen similar data sets from others.
What we need is escape rate broken down into MMR ranges and SoloQ vs SWF. Would also be interesting to average every players individual escape rate, then take a global mean and median of all players. This would remove impact of a pro survivor playing 1000 games in a week vs casual playing 10 games in a week. If there is a huge difference between the mean and mode, that would heavily indicate stats being skewed by a few highly skilled survivors. Same thing is done in economics, looking at the average/mean income isn't helpful because you have a few outliers earning tens of millions of dollars while the median shows your more true "average".
I'm also unclear how they intend an elo based mmr system to function if they aren't aiming for a 50/50 win rate. Seems like they were really close to good pre patch with 47/53 (although even that was getting skewed by high escape rate survivors). If most of your survivor player base sees under 30% win rate and killers get over 70% win rate, your mmr distributions are going to look like two inverse curves. Fear my mspaint skills to see the issue. How are you going to make good matches when each player base is lumped together on each end? With two different pools you have to match between, you would ideally want them to be similar shapes. This is probably why high MMR killers had bad queue times early on before they widened the spread.
I really feel like the devs should add a way to escape. Personally, I feel like if you've done 2 full gens alone, you deserve to escape. If you've done 4 gens together, both of you deserve to escape(so basically, finishing a gen together gives half a point, finishing a gen solo gives a full point and with 2 points you can escape).
You would give solo survivors the option to stick around to help teammates, or get out early when things go down south. And these escapes actually granting MMR to survivors and removing it from killers, not a "tie" like hatch.
I feel like this would solve Camping and Tunneling quite a bit(because if you're Bubba in a basement, at least 2 survivors can escape and the 3rd one could find the natural hatch.), it would give a reason to killers to not ignore people on gens and it would basically remove slugging for the 4k in a 2v1 scenario(because at least 1 survivor is able to escape early).
Yeah, you could heavily screw your teammates over, but on the other hand, you could also be spared a 4 minute slugfest.
It also gives a means for survivors to exit a game early on without needing to DC or suicide.
It would give reason for individual MMR for survivors, punishes killers who make games boring and gives reason for survivors to stick on gens if they can.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3179142#Comment_3179142
this used work like this with keys. hatch spawned if 1 person died and 1 gen was remaining or if 2 survivor died and 2 gens were remaining. it lead to cases of just losing randomly from 3 people escaping from the hatch or last two escaping. often 1 from far exit gate and another from the hatch.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3179081#Comment_3179081
its team game. 4,3,2 escapes are win for the survivor and 3k/4k is a win for killer. that's always how I saw it. the survivor win conditions are easier because its suppose to be that survivor has "harder" time escaping because killer is supposedly stronger and is favoured to win.
team based MMR would be really good, but a lot of people complain about their teammates being trash and blame them for losing, so individual mmr is suppose lead to less toxicity regarding that. it would be more accurate for survivor but could prove be a little toxic. At the same time, I don't think mmr needs to be super accurate. it should be vaguely accurate unless you just want the game to be super ultra competitive. I see dbd more as casually competitive. its suppose to be fun to play dbd, but have little bit of matchmaking to it.
Not really, the way keys worked was based on how many survivors were left and how many gens were done in total. Im talking if you finished 2/5ths of gens on your own, you deserve to escape. If you fixed 4 gens together, both of you deserve to escape.
Now, that might screw over the person who is being tunneled, but the main reasons why killers tunnel, is because no one can escape. Add the threat of people being able to escape, and killers have less reason to tunnel
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@LinkToReality said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3179112#Comment_3179112
Open Handed does not make the aura reading on Wiretap larger. That said 14 meters is still further than people realize.
Yeah, bit late, but I found out. And 14 meter is a lot, IF multiple people are running it. I think 14 meters is fine, but I do feel like Open Handed and Wiretap is a fair combo. The only "bad" part about it is that the killer doesnt know.
So I'd say: let the killer know that they are being spotted thanks to Wiretap, cap the distance at 20 meters(14 meters is not large enough to see a killer coming and get away. Even on The Game or Midwich barely gives info, even with the 80 seconds, unless all 4 people run it).
So I'd say either a basekit increase in range, or reduce basekit to 12 and add 8 meters with Open Handed. Either way, let the killer know they are being seen.
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@Blazelski said:
I just read it because perks are always one of the most interesting factors of gameplay for me, and I was particularly interested in this part:
"When you’re in that situation, you use the elements I mentioned before: does it have good synergy? Is it good by itself? Is it thematic? Does it allow for interesting gameplay situations?”
Considering this was in the paragraph about Ada Wong's perks, I have to wonder; how did Low Profile become one of the perks to make it into the game? Originally it only worked when you were the last survivor in the trial, and everyone immediately knew it was terrible. Since it got buffed, now it's only quite bad, but still.
Synergy: Only with Left Behind, Sole Survivor, and maybe Clairvoyance. All perks that are irrelevant because no one runs them, and even if they did...
Interesting gameplay situations: Precisely the opposite. The survivor is encouraged to play selfishly and stealthily, which leads to frustration for every other person in the match. I'm presuming if it's supposed to lead to interesting gameplay, it should also lead to healthy, non-frustrating gameplay, which this doesn't.
Good by itself: Absolutely not. A fairly strong (but not incredibly strong) effect that activates only in the direst of circumstances that will be very rare regardless... is obviously not good.
Thematic: Sure. This is honestly the one part of the perk process I don't care about, but sure.
Conclusion: So out of the 12 perk ideas that were created for Ada, how did one that failed 3 out of 4 checks for quality get submitted?
P.S: We could also have had this discussion about Better Than New, but I don't think there's a need, and at least that one doesn't encourage terrible gameplay.
Well, you are missing the secret 5th check: would the perk be too powerful?
You'd be surprised how many perks were released on PTB with an additional restriction that felt like it was literally there just to prevent a perk from being OP because they sounded strong in theory. Like, theoretically, having no scratchmarks, blood or grunts of pain for 90 seconds is powerful enough. You can do like 4 laps around the map and your only issue would be crows. Funnily enough, the perks that sound weak often end up being the ones getting restricted later down the line because they had much stronger implications. Circle of healing, in essence, didnt sound too strong. The biggest reason why I would consider CoH too strong, on paper, was due to a lack of regression during healing. Haemorrhage has fixed that issue. I would say the 75% was the perfect balance for CoH considering the revamped Haemorrhage debuff, especially since a ton of perks and addons already apply this effect as a secondary to mangled, which already drops the healing speed quite a bit, and 75% would be slightly faster than Self-Care, making it worth placing and actually making it something for the killer to worry about if left ignored for too long, but could still be ignored for 2 chases worth in most cases. But yknow, a 25% difference didnt sound too odd.
That was untill it was revealed that CoH had overlap.
Its reasons like that why certain perks in the PTB are super safe. Removing basically all tracking except crows from survivors means all survivors need is Calm Spirit and they can run around willy nilly without you knowing where they are. That is a very strong power to have when no survivors are dead.
Is it strong? Depends, I personally consider it quite a powerful perk right now. Not gamebreaking in terms of 1v4, but it definitely makes the 1v1 a lot harder.
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@Hensen2100 said:
Nope. Not at all. I only consider myself part of a team if I am in a SWF. Other than that, all my teammates are disposable potato's
If I want to play a true team game, there's plenty of titles for that. DBD is every man for himself imo, if the killer is slaying the games play out more like a BR than anything
My biggest issue with that is that your fellow survivors impact your chances of survival. So survivors are a team even if they dont want to be.
I have gotten the opinion that Hatch needs a rework and would be available to those who finished 2 gens alone or 4 gens together(or 1 gen alone and 2 together). They can decide to leave early, which is especially nice if your team are complete potatoes, or stay for more BP and aid their teammates. This hatch would be different in the sense that it does give you MMR, but less than if you were to escape through the gate. This hatch is only visible to the killer and the survivor in question, and the killer can temporarily close the hatch, but it would open again everytime a gen is finished.
The benefits here would be that a survivor can be removed early from the game that isnt negative for that specific survivor, but still positive for the killer(a survivor leaving early could grant a 3k in a match that could otherwise be a 1k). It would also set a personal win condition on survivors that doesnt fully rely on their teammates. And no one can claim that its a free escape either. It still grants the killer to get a 4k but adds another patrol option, or the killer could try to force that survivor out early on.
This also gives the killer an incentive to chase multiple survivors, because if the killer tunnels, 3 survivors can escape within 4 minutes. If the killer doesnt tunnel, chances are low that more than 1 survivor can escape early on, but the rest of survivors are forced to stay in the trial for the full 10 minutes.
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@VentingSylar said:
"Bug fix" or not. Having blast mine go away after it runs out severely hurts the perk. Especially considering how much gen progress you need to even activate it.
Now personally I think it should both the same 33% and 80 seconds that wiretap is. But if some deem that too strong then 50% of a gen would be an adequate buff and give it the 80 second duration.
Wiretap I personally think is fine for the most part. I just think its range just needs to be buffed to 20 meters. Then it'll be perfect. I just feel like 14 is just way too small of a radius.
What do you guys think?
For Blast Mine I understand the cooldown, for me the issue with Blast Mine is that you have to touch a generator for 3 seconds to even place it. The activation time might be a bit faster IMO too, because lets be honest, if you placed one, it takes forever to get a second one and the killer often kicks the gen anyway. I dont think Blastmine is powerful enough to impact a killers game too much.
As for Wiretap, well, I do consider the 14 meters to be fine, because Open Handed exists. But I'd say the cooldown is basically there just to create 3 tiers. Instead I would say 10/12/14 meters of aura reading. People might say that it would give too much info, but lets be honest, even on a map like Midwich, having 4 wiretaps and Open Handed might give a huge range of vision, IF the killer never damages the generators.
Maybe there is an issue with generators being completed, and that would be a fair statement as that would be perma vision, but even then, I wouldnt really think too much of it. Because to finish multiple generators with Wiretap active is a difficult task, and it would be a natural reward.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3177832#Comment_3177832
In every single language too like it's not just an English-only issue but it's a problem in Japanese, German, AND English (and apparently, French and Polish too but I haven't checked those)
I mean, its probably a callback to the perk itself, which would be auto translated. So if you put 1 there, it would be 1 for everyone, but if you call perk_selfcare, it would show up differently to others.
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@Crowman said:
The best strategy to win as killer by far is to eliminate a survivor as quickly as possible. You would need to massively change the game to change that fact which I don't see the devs doing.
Tunneling, camping, and slugging have all been stated by the devs as acceptable tactics. Getting upset at the killers for playing within the game rules and not your imaginary rules is a "you problem".
Yeah, and this needs to be replaced by a punishment, the more gens that are remaining when the first kill happens, the stronger remaining survivors are in pushing gens and lasting longer in chase untill all gens are finished.
That way, killing 1 survivor ASAP is no longer the best strategy and could even turn the game around if the killer is too greedy for a kill.
I personally believe the healthiest balance for the game is if, on average, the first survivor dies with 1 gen remaining, then the second dies, on average, when all gens are done, then, again on average, the 4th survivor will escape and the 3rd survivor has about a 50% survival rate.
That would give 2.5 kills for killers on average, keep the gameflow fun throughout the match in general and punishes greed.
The slowdown patch literally made survivor greed much harder by slowing down gens, making chase overall shorter and granting a basekit mini-Pop on kicking a generator. So why not a patch that punishes killer greed by granting a mini-DS on being tunneled? And if they still push on to kill due to whatever benefit they gained through soloQ by increasing all survivor action speeds by 10% for each generator remaining when the first survivor dies, untill all gens are done?
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Well, you do realize that Wesker has as a basekit:
- High mobility with his ability, even with the "slow" cooldowns, he still gains distance. Thats a huge benefit
- He can instantly carry survivors without having a longer cooldown on his ability, even if these survivors are full health
- His ability is quite powerful in loops.
So really, why does his power need to be better?
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164596#Comment_3164596
What is it like being so embarrassingly objectively wrong? Devs have repeatedly stated slugging for 4K is a legitimate tactic. Guess what they’ve also done? They’ve also stated numerous times that survivors hiding and refusing to touch gens at all is a reportable offense that requires video evidence to be submitted. They’ve also stated over and over that doing so counts as refusal to participate in normal gameplay and holding the game hostage.
Survivor goals are to power the gates and then escape. Which is why doing gens is a part of the game.
Killer goals are to deny escape, killing survivors in the process. Which is why defending gens is a part of the game.
Please educate yourself. Thanks!
"Devs have repeatedly stated slugging for 4K is a legitimate tactic."
Oh please, give me those statements. Ones that are recent too btw. Because they stated camping and tunneling was a legitimate tactic untill they started addressing them. Devs have also repeatedly stated that using Dead Hard to reach windows and pallets was a legitimate tactic. So please, one thats recent, and not from 2020.
As for survivors hiding and refusing to touch gens is a reportable offense. Yeah, "Survivors". Not survivors. Any survivor can hide and refuse to touch gens. In fact, 3 survivors could hide and refuse to touch gens. As long as the game progresses, there is no issue. The full quote contains the fact that survivors are not progressing the game in any mean and thus prevent the killer from finishing the game in an orderly manner.
"Killer goals are to deny escape"
No, that isnt their goal. Their goal is to kill as many survivors as they can. Not to deny escape. This is why the hatch exists in the game. This is why many people are trying to get devs to a point to either change slugging in a 2v1, or consider it holding the game hostage. Because the killer's next goal, after downing a survivor, is to hook them and then find a new survivor. Sometimes dropping and keeping them slugged is better to pressure other survivors during a chase. Slugging someone for the 4k isnt doing either of those. You do not add any pressure, in fact, you remove all the pressure in the game, because the survivor has no reason to work on gens anymore, since the hatch exists.
Defending gens is part of the game, hatch is part of the game, slugging for the 4k only became recently part of the game after nerfing the hatch, now its time to nerf slugging for the 4k
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@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164589#Comment_3164589
oh don't worry the killer will carry the survivor to the hook without fail. Whenever he wishes to do so. Including the last survivor. He is doing his task, don't worry. You just keep doing your part.
if someone is slugged you don't have a hatch for alternative escape so the hatch escape isn't among your objectives since there are 2 living survivors, even if you wish there would be only one, you.
So failing to do your own task and blaming the killer for it who is actually hunting and looking for survivors is just pointless.
The hatch, from the start of the match, is part of the game. Simply saying you cant consider the hatch without it actually spawning is like demanding Trapper to not trap the exitgates untill they are powered. The Trapper traps the exitgates in advance because he knows they can be powered, just like the survivor plans in advance to use the hatch, because they know it will appear.
So what is it, is Trapper trapping the exitgates before all gens are finished not doing his task, or are survivors waiting for hatch doing their task? You cant have trapper doing his task and the survivors not, because with your logic, gens are still remaining so he should patrol those rather than the exitgates.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164589#Comment_3164589
You do realize that is an unofficial fan wiki ran by volunteers right? LMFAOOO
With direct quotes from the game. I was too lazy to start up the game to get the data from there.
How much do you want to disprove yourself?
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@Purple_Orc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3163963#Comment_3163963
Oh you mean like 99ing the doors so you can eliminate EGC
Killers can open doors themselves to start EGC. Survivors cant suicide while downed, bad argument.
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@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164549#Comment_3164549
Sure there is not much of a risk killing the last survivor. But that doesn't make it a free kill. It's within the rights of the killer to chose the course of action and the order he wants to harm or kill survivors.
If there is no risk, then its a free kill. Downing a survivor isnt a matter of skill, its a matter of time. Having a risk means you're forced to down a survivor early, this is the skill part of killer. When there is no more risk, there is no more skill required. If there is no more skill required, its free.
As for "In which is explained what is the objective as a survivor, waiting and hiding until the hatch opens isn't among the things written there."
This completely debunks your argument for waiting and hiding.
As for the survivor objective of doing gens, well, look at the killer version countering your other argument too:
This is more than enough evidence proving that slugging in a 2v1 is the killer wasting time, not the survivor, like you erroneous try to claim.
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@SuzuKR said:
DBD players when you counter a mechanic that allows a survivor that doesn’t have to do literally anything except being the last alive a chance to escape after losing:
DBD players when you use a mechanic that doesnt allow a survivor to do anything except being forced to remain in game untill you finally chase down the final survivor, which you can do with 0 risk and no losses(you can down even the most godlike survivor within 4 minutes, downing a survivor is a matter of time, downing a survivor early is a matter of skill), be like:
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@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164433#Comment_3164433
No, it doesn't give anyone free anything. The killer must catch and kill the survivor. they don't die by themselves. There is no such thing as free kill. Unless you stand in front of the killer begging to be killed. If he chases you, it's his effort and his kill.
But what is the risk? There is none.
As for no such thing as a free kill, yeah, there is. And for the last bit, if a survivor escapes the match, its their effort, and their escape, no such thing as a free escape. Either you worked for it, or you sacrificed something for it. If hatch truly was a free escape, it would be accessible at 5 gens.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164428#Comment_3164428
Argument boils down to people don't like slugging for 4k but it's necessary as counterplay to hatch
There's some disagreements here and there but that's the gist. Half the thread is some back and forth with the words LMAO repeated over and over bc implying your laughing at someone's argument makes it less valid apparently
Hatch doesnt really need counterplay though, there are some exceptions where hatch might ruin something, but the majority of people do not slug for those reasons, they slug because they want a guaranteed 4 kill without having to put in any additional effort.
Essentially, the hatch mechanic is more than fair enough to have some unlucky RNG postpone a few killer challenges to 1 more match. Thats nothing compared to needing to finish 8 gens(not just work on 8 gens total, finishing them), which can be done in 2 matches if you're lucky, but more often than not takes 10+ matches due to camping and tunneling preventing you from working on gens, let alone finishing them. And thats the same amount of BP and rift fragments given, to a challenge that might otherwise take 1 or 2 more games because hatch exists.
Essentially, its not necessary to counterplay hatch, because the counterplay is to find and close it. If RNG on hatch is the issue, well, why not complain about generator spawn RNG, or hook spawn RNG, or tile RNG, or tile rotation RNG, or sometimes even dedicated server being the deciding factor between you hitting a survivor or it being rolled back, which is basically RNG too. Why is hatch RNG any different from those? The combined factor of all other RNG can actually lose or win you the game much more significantly than hatch can.
And thats not even the gist of it, because the true gist of it is slugging for the 4k killing the gameflow, being extremely boring for all parties involved and being the only mechanic from 2016 that hasnt recieved any significant changes.
There isnt really any perk that works the exact same way as it did in 2016, and if they barely changed, they now have plenty of counterplay. Hooks, gens, loops, maps, items(including addons), offerings, killer powers, camping(albeit not enough to prevent early game camping), tunneling, hatch, basement, chests, graphics, sound, interface, overall gameflow, chase, terror radius(first being personal, then being standardized, now being made more personal again). All this has recieved an update, rework or at the very least a decent attempt of being changed to make the game more fun for all parties involved. Slugging is the only exception, with slugging for the 4k being inexcusable when it comes to entertainment.
Now, overall, I think slugging is fine and barely needs any alteration, maybe an increase in speed to move around the map and meet up with teammates quicker and enough to make the killer think twice on where you actually dropped, but thats it. But since slugging ends up with you dying, it should be treated in a similar way that hooks are: a chance to pick yourself up at the cost of increased speed of death, and a chance to opt-out. Being forced to wait 4 full minutes to exit a game, without being able to participate in any meaningful manner, is something that should no longer exist. Give them a way to participate in a meaningful way and a way to speed up the dying progress.
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@deKlaw_04 said:
why are people complaining about hatch again?
Because they consider it a free escape, when its really not. Which is especially hypocritical since slugging for the 4k would give the killer a free kill.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164394#Comment_3164394
It’s hilarious you don’t realize the reason tunneling/camping/slugging hasn’t been addressed in any huge ways so far is because they’re extremely complicated to do without any given idea being abusable or gimmicky. Educate yourself, thanks.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YV1VOM57VX7N/e4322b4e-bbed-48d5-bb6f-d09d0207ddaf.jpeg
Camping and tunneling havent been addressed?
Hooktimers used to be 45 seconds, they are now 60 seconds. Basekit BT+movementspeed. Hooks no longer spawn in tiles that you cant use. Bodyblocking is much more effective. Adding 15 seconds was huge. Basekit BT+movementspeed is huge. Adding Reassurance was huge, and that is on top of perks like Kindred, DS, Off The Record, and Guardian. Hooks also turn, back in the day, they werent turnable. Making camping overall less effective. The only change that camping needs now is the removal of hookgrabs(as hitting a survivor already guarantees a hooktrade).
Slugging is literally the only mechanic that hasnt really gotten that treatment. Sure, you have Unbreakable, but that is pretty much the only perk you can run to somewhat prevent it, and Unbreakable only allows you to pick yourself up once. No Mither and Soulguard might add more than 1 pick-up, but No Mither is too easy to spot and probably gets you killed first, and Soulguard requires a hex.
Also, what was survivors breaking gamerules in your previous argument? Because survivors arent breaking any gamerules.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164375#Comment_3164375
Then go unhook them? Gigabrain moment.
The mental gymnastics in blaming a killer for playing in a legitimate manner but defending survivors for breaking game rules is amazing.
Then go hook them? Gigabrain moment.
The mental gymnastics in excusing mechanics for a killer playing in super boring ways, when all the boring ways that survivors could play in have been removed even though they were playing in a legitimate manner, but defending killer mechanics because they are killer mechanics is amazing.
Face it, slugging hasnt been touched since 2016, this is the only reason why slugging for the 4k is even a possibility. If we would add comparable survivor mechanics from 2016 back, like old sabotage mechanics, you would be one of the first people to be crying about it.
Removing all the hooks at 2 minutes in the game? Totally legitimate manner of playing. Yet, it was removed. Why? Because slugging for kills and running perks to be able to reach the basement was extremely boring. With your logic, there is no reason for it to be removed. Just slug them or hook them in the basement. Dead Hard might aswell be reverted too. Totaly legitimate way of playing, super boring to face for a lot of killers that werent Nurse or Blight, but yknow, doesnt matter.
Maybe trying to excuse the only remaining mechanic when all other mechanics have been rebalanced isnt the hill you want to die on. Slugging will be looked into regardless of your bad arguments to try and keep it, I am just trying to speed up the process.
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@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164337#Comment_3164337
who said it's 2-4 minutes. If the killer wants to, you will stay in the game, as long as he wants to keep you there, if you refuse to play. A slugged survivor can be picked up. a picked up survivor doesn't bleed out, he can just release him if he struggles, let him run a bit and still look for you again. Basically by not doing your own objectives, you will waste your own time, if the killer decides not to allow you a free escape.
Except in that case, there is an extra survivor capable of doing gens. If you just release them, they will sit on gens and keep you busy. If you go for the other one, they will be hiding.
So you would be forced to keep grabbing them, or they will die. Giving the other survivor plenty of time to do other gens.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164370#Comment_3164370
lmao. "Why is a killer able to get a 4K after dominating the match?"
Why is the killer able to get 1 kill after being dominated in the match?
@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164347#Comment_3164347
Hatch should never ever be possible for more than one person unless all 5 gens are done.
"Reward survivors for getting beaten"
Yeah, no.
Then the killer should never be able to kill anyone unless gens are still remaining. Rewarding killers for losing by camping. Yeah no.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164325#Comment_3164325
Wow, it’s almost like a mechanic that rewards hiding and doing nothing with potential escape could be better-designed. Being the last one alive isn’t dependent on only skill. It’s also dependent on luck. If the killer just never happened to go for you, that has nothing to do with skill.
You are literally saying to remove the counterplay of a potential free escape for a side that has already lost LMAO
Wow, its almost like a mechanic that rewards not doing anything special and just walking around with potential to find 1 more extra kill could be better designed. Killing the last one alive isnt dependent on only skill, its also dependent on luck. If you just tunneled because survivors have no comms, that has nothing to do with skill.
You are literally saying to remove the counterplay of a potential free kill, for a side that has already won.
But by your logic, we should also remove the ability to camp a hook during the EGC too. How is it fair that the killer can camp to get a potentially free kill when they already lost? Just let all survivors escape at that point, right?
If the killer can guarantee a 1k, survivors should be able to guarantee a 1e.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164010#Comment_3164010
I don't like VHS for the most part, but I like the way they address extreme stalemates with the Rift and Super Rift mechanic.
Honestly, just giving survivors the option to bleed out faster at 2 remaining survivors would clean it up a bit. Wouldn't work with everyone/3 alive, because that would just lead to greater slugging viability and nobody wants that. Well, I should say nobody interested in a fun game wants that.
I'd also like to see hatch automatically close and start the EGC after being open for 2 minutes. I still see killers sit on hatch and refuse to close it/play the gates. There really shouldn't ever be the option to induce a stalemate or lose scenario.
I'd actually would love to see the hatch open again after 1.5 minutes of EGC timer has passed. That way, with killer-sided gates, the killer has to be worried about the hatch, and in the case of survivor-sided gates, it doesnt really matter.
I also feel like with 2 survivors remaining, especially with the upcoming change that the final downed survivor gets mori'd, that hatch should open if 2 people are dead and 1 person slugged and not inside the Killer's Terror Radius. This gives the killer a risk of a survivor escaping if they leave the slug and forcing the EGC to start early and thus allow for things like Adrenaline to work. If the healthy survivor escapes through hatch, the game instantly ends in that scenario.
The survivor would be given the option to buy time for their teammate to find the hatch and escape, help them up, look for the hatch themselves and end the game, or wait for the killer to find the hatch to go for an exitgate.
The only potential problem I see there is that you'd have a chance of 2 survivors escaping through the hatch, but considering trying to turn a 1k into a 0k can easily turn into a 3k. This would be the equalivant of trying to turn a 3k into a 4k but being at risk of a 2k. I'd say those are fair odds.
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@WorthlessBeing said:
Sorry mate, but I ain't giving a free hatch to someone who'd rather let their partner bleed out than try to help at all. I can absolutely hide all game and get the hatch. It's not surviving that takes skill, it's surviving from the killer.
The number of people just hiding to get a free escape even before only two people remain is enormous. And I'll punish those people by a sweet mori.
Besides, it's called counterplay. What, are you going to complain that people can actually bodyblock to prevent a hook as well? Because that's the same.
A hatch is just a "You lost, here's your participation medal".
They have survived from the killer all game. If a survivor was hiding all game and then slugged me to find that survivor who hid all game, sure, take your time to find them. But in 99% of the games, that isnt the case. You have survivors who have already survived 10 minutes from the killer, some even having been camped and tunneled already.
As for a free escape, its not free. The amount of people hiding to do so isnt even that enormous. I maybe encounter 1-2 survivors like that per month, regardless if I play killer or survivor, and the only times its more often is when the rift demands people to escape through the hatch.
And its not really counterplay, its denying an entire mechanic. Hatch counterplay is going there and closing it. You know what is the equalivant around hooks? 2016 hook mechanics where Saboteur could remove all surface hooks permanently from the game at only 2 minutes in. Thats removing an entire mechanic from killers.
And a hatch isnt a participation medal, its a reason to keep on playing. It keeps risk in the game. A survivor needs to be at risk of death while also having a chance of escape to have a reason to keep playing. If they receive neither, they have no reason to keep trying and instead just hide in lockers for 4 minutes.
Its boring, and if its boring for 30% of the duration of a match, its problematic.
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@neb said:
Why is a 4 man escape so important to some? I don't get the difference. Both sides are trying their best to secure an absolute win.
Because you've been playing as a team the whole game. I want as many of my teammates to escape as possible.
Main difference: It actually takes effort to go for a 4 man escape. Most killers can facecamp in such a situation and keep hooktrading untill someone is dead or guarantee a kill. Rescuing the 4th survivor actually creates a risk of more than 1 survivor dying.
So in short: you risk a potential multikill.
I've had plenty of games where the killer ended up getting 3 kills because survivors wanted to go for a 4 man escape. I have had 0 games where the killer slugging for the 4k in a 2v1 ended in 3 survivors escaping. Slugging for the 4k doesnt risk anything.
If slugging for the 4k gives a chance for one of my teammates to return to the match by rescuing them L4D style from a basement closet? Sure, I'm all for it, because then there is actually a risk to slugging for the 4k.
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@SuzuKR said:
Wanting the 4th kill is enough reason.
Then wanting the hatch is enough counter reason. And preventing the game from being boring would overrule that reason. So what is your reason to counter that?
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@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164141#Comment_3164141
No that's not the objective, it simply shows the progress of the hook. It's only present when he hooks someone. The killer also has the counter of how many gens are still up, and patrol and prevent them to be fixed if necessary. Killers have the objective to kill. They can do it by mori, by allowing you to bleed out, by hooking, or by any means they see fit.
I'm merely showing you that in case the game is dragged when one of the last two survivors being slugged, the killer is actively playing because he's looking for survivors, the survivor is stalling it by hiding away. The game isn't dragged by the killer at all, he's playing the game.
The time is simply dragged by the survivor refusing to play so there shouldn't be any complaint from survivor side that the game was dragged in the end when he was the one doing that, that's all. He's not the one wasting time.
Just like the generators simply show the progress on the gate. It's only present because the gate isnt powered. They are a team objective, just like the hooks are an anti-team objective. You hook survivors to reduce the survivor teamplay, survivors do gens to escape as a team. But when it comes to a solo escape? It doesnt matter if its the gate or not.
As for actively playing, well again, hiding is intended survivor gameplay. A survivor hiding from the killer is actively playing. The killer is dragging on the game for no real reason other than to guarantee a 4k if the survivor does anything. The survivor cant really drag on the game at that point, as the survivor cannot create a way to escape when the killer is actively patrolling the map, including the slugged survivor.
The time is dragged by the killer refusing to hook. The only way a survivor doesnt drag the time is by showing themselves to the killer, which, goes against survivor objective.
And you might argue that working on gens doesnt equal showing themselves, but it is. Survivors are leaving evidence of their location, which is showing themselves to a killer. The killer can kill the 3rd survivor, but is refusing to do so. The survivor is still trying to escape. Who is going against their objective here? Helping out teammates is not the primary objective, doing gens isnt the primary objective. Escaping is the primary objective for survivors. Killing is the primary objective for killers. The only time a killer has no reason to not hook a survivor, is by baiting another survivor. Slugging for the 4k isnt baiting for another survivor.
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@MsSaltyGiggles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164128#Comment_3164128
No, I didn't. Look at the new killers released. I just said I have adept on every killer. Changes went into effect long ago, that means there are killers that came out after those changes. Why are you arguing with me on this. You sound like you don't play killer that much. Just be wrong and move on.
"quite early on" Means quite early in the month. And as for the changes now, well, they did adjust the way MMR starts I guess, but that doesnt really take away from the argument as the problem persists. Basically, if I was a high mmr killer on one killer, all my killers would have increased MMR too. They didnt add an MMR decay in place untill Sadako was released, and the MMR drop is too slow to notice for pretty much all killers up untill Sadako. I didnt even attempt the new killers since Artist other than maybe reset day because the survivors I faced would be mid-mmr when I should be low MMR on those killers. The effect on the old killers lingers there.
As for playing killer that much, well, not recently, but definitely 2k hours at the very least.
The MMR issue still persists on killers like Billy, who I have never played and only leveled up to lvl 30 for the final teachable that I needed. It might not affect Wesker due to changes, but I have no reason to practice Billy because the survivors I encounter are still far too similar to the survivors I encounter when I play Trapper, and Trapper is my 4th pick when it comes to playing killer. That is the whole issue. Having adept on all killers doesnt really change that.
And its not really possible to get iridescent on 3 except gatekeeper without getting 4 kills: Devout requires 4 kills, 9 hooks and everyone being hooked once for iridescent. Let 1 person escape, and its gold(2 points per kill, 1 point for 9 hooks and 1 point for hooking everyone once=8 points). With Gatekeeper being very hard to keep iridescent for most killers, that means that letting 1 person go means 2 gold and 2 iridescent. You're not gonna get a merciless from that unless you're bronze.
I'm not calling BS on you having all adepts, but if you let someone go, odds are that you had gatekeeper at iridescent.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164092#Comment_3164092
Gates are sometimes too far apart, especially if the survivor tries to 24% the gate, hide, then finish the gate. And the survivor might have something like Wake Up or Sole Survivor to open the exit gates faster.
You can prevent that by quickly checking the corners quickly before going back. A survivor cant leave scratchmarks, so they are forced to walk, and the gate is often within walking distance.
Let alone that in many, many, MANY cases, you have 1 vantage point on maps that allows you vision on both exit gates and thus make that escape impossible, even if the survivor runs both Wake Up and Sole Survivor.
With that in mind, what is the exact issue here? That a survivor can escape by outsmarting the killer, and that is somehow a bad thing? A killer can prevent a survivor from escaping by standing still on 1 location and see both exit gates. A killer can prevent a survivor from escaping through slugging for a 4k. A killer can guarantee 1k, especially if they have access to instadowns. So why shouldnt survivors be able to guarantee an escape if they play it smart?
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@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164082#Comment_3164082
I'm not sure which part are you missing when you look at your screen.
as survivor, your objective is shown on your screen. Including to escape when exit routes are open. Until then, your objective didn't change. You can try to dismiss the fact but it's right there on your screen to see it.
About hooking or not, that is perfectly within the killer's choice. If the devs wanted the killer to hook every time a survivor is downed, they would be picked up automatically by the killer after being downed, without the killer being able to do anything about it. So downing someone and not picking them up right away is an intended part of the game, among the killers options. Obviously.
Again, here is the killer objective shown on the killer's screen:
Same logic dude. If survivors HAVE to do gens because its on the screen, then killers HAVE to hook because its on the screen. You can try to dismiss the fact, but its right there on your screen to see it.
As for doing gens or not in a 2v1, that is perfectly within the survivor's choice. If the devs wanted survivors to do gens even when the task is practically impossible, they would automatically walk towards gens without the survivor being able to do anything about it. So not doing gens and waiting for hatch to spawn is an intended part of the game, among survivor options. Obviously.
If changing words in your argument ends up with an equally legit counterargument, its not an argument. Yes, slugging for pressure is intended. Slugging for the 4k is a side-effect that might be unintended. If the devs truly meant for you to slug for a 4k, they would have done the following:
- hatch escapes actually REMOVE MMR from killer and give MMR for survivor(this isnt the case)
- they would have made 3k be considered a tie(its not)
- they would have made catching the final survivor to be a huge risk because you leave the downed survivor alone, and they are able to progress the game(this isnt the case).
Since Hatch doesnt give or reduce any mmr, 3k's are considered a win and there is really no additional benefit from the 4th kill(this has been said a lot), slugging for the 4k right now sounds like its not intended and just a by-product. Its extremely boring gameplay-wise and doesnt benefit anyone in any particular way, it only punishes survivors.
That sounds very much like the old hatch, where 3 people could escape with 1 generator left. It didnt really benefit anyone in particular and only punished killers. Hatch has been nerfed, slugging should be next.
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@MsSaltyGiggles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164092#Comment_3164092
I've gotten adept by only killing 3 survivors and one escape through the hatch. It was 3 iridescent emblems and a gold gatekeeper emblem. It's possible to double pip if one person escapes through hatch. I have all my killer and survivor adepts - for reference.
Oh yeah, and odds were likely that you did so before reaching red ranks, or did it quite early on. The issue with killer adept is that you'd face survivors for at least a full week that know how to counterplay your killer, while you havent been able to learn the killer to attempt counterplaying the counterplay.
I have most adepts, but if I play killer normally, I'd reach gold or red ranks quite quick and if I want to adept with another killer, I would either be forced to slug for a 4k or wait for the 13th for the reset. Thats not really a good way to go about things. Adept at red ranks should be equally tough as adept at grey ranks. It being easier at grey ranks is very odd.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164092#Comment_3164092
Camping and Tunnelling rewards failure how, exactly? Mind explaining your conclusion there?
A Nurse tunnelling a dude through their 3 hooks at 5 gens doesn't seem like failure on the Killer's part to me
Failing to chase and kill other survivors for that entire duration. I mean, the dude said hatch rewards failure, which it doesnt. The final survivor survived the entire ordeal and since its impossible to do gens, is granted another way for an escape to be available. In essence, that final survivor succeeded and since its still a game, is granted another way to escape.
If hatch in its current iteration is a failure because someone gets an escape without possibly finishing all gens, then tunneling and camping is a failure due to not being able to hook anyone else.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164049#Comment_3164049
Sometimes the gates are too far apart to patrol. The last survivor in the game should always be worth 0 points, to encourage the game to end sooner.
Slugging for the 4k gives the killer an opportunity to gain more MMR, so it’s the best game decision if they don’t know where the last survivor is. If the last survivor was worth 0 MMR points, then I wouldn’t care what happens to the last survivor.
Gates are never too far apart. RPD used to have this issue. Big note on used to.
@ThePolice said:
Exactly, the hatch should just be removed as it rewards failure
Then camping and tunneling should be removed as it rewards failure, or slugging for the 4k, as that rewards failure.
@MsSaltyGiggles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/344275/slugging-for-the-4k
Alright, not sure if someone has said this already, but you will not get Adept achievements on killer for slugging. You will need to get two blood pips on killer to get the Adept achievements. This is usually 4 iridescent emblems or 3 iridescent emblems and one golden emblem, and sometimes 3 golden emblems and one iridescent emblem. If you're slugging for the 4k you will not be making enough points in the other categories to receive the Adept achievement.
Oh yeah, but especially in red ranks, you would need to slug in a 2v1 to get enough emblems to get the double pip for adept. That is kinda the issue. You can have a good game of 10 minutes, kill 3 survivors and 1 escaping through hatch and you'd still not get the killer adept. While you could have a game of 8 minutes, kill 2 survivors, slug the 3rd one and then scour the map for the 4th to get the adept.
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@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164044#Comment_3164044
No the killer has teh objective to kill you by any means he see fit. He only has that objective.
the killer in this case is doing his own objective, and looking for the last survivor, the last survivor is refusing to do his objective so he's stalling the game, simple as that.
The killer can chose any route, he doesn't need to hook someone to kill. he has the options to hit once and let go and look for others. He has the option to mori survivors, he has the option to allow survivors to bleed out, he has the option to kill them by sacrificing them on the hooks. These are all part of the game.
As survivor your objective is LITERALLY shown on the screen: X ammount of GENERATORS remaining, fix them. Your teammate is down, you should probably help him.
As killer he has nothing on the screen. His objective is simple. And he fulfills that objective by actively looking for you.
Yeah, and the survivor has the objective to escape, by any means they see fit. That is their only objective.
Gens are optional for escape, sacrificing your teammates is another.
As for the generator amount remaining being a reason for the objective, and the killer has none, well, I guess you have me ther-OH WAIT, WHAT'S THIS?
A survivor is down, you have hooks remaining, you should probably pick them up.
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@Carth said:
Nooo you have to let the person have one last freebie escape chance! Where is the killer equivalent of hatch?
The killer equivalent of hatch is to open the exitgate and camp out 1 kill.
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@pseudechis said:
It’s just counter play to the hatch spawn.
Once again we have a scenario where it’s to a killer advantage which often means it removes a survivors ability to fully participate.
Non participation is one of the threats you face as survivor it’s part of the game. The counter to non-participation mechanics is your team mates help you.
So you get downed and your team mate refuses to pick you up because it’s risky.
That’s on your team mate, but the solution is always can we punish killers to prevent this happening.
You’re also complaining about a mechanic that already has a solution, there is a bleed out timer.
If it was any shorter then you’d just bleed out quicker during the match and the complaints would be “I keep bleeding out too fast during the game.”
The typical scenario when you hook a third is they suicide on hook straight away to maximise the chance of getting a hatch escape and if they want to do that fine. But another way to avoid that is slug and hunt for the 4th.
"Non participation is one of the threats you face as survivor it’s part of the game. The counter to non-participation mechanics is your team mates help you."
This is blatantly false. If you're hooked, you still participate in the game, if you have teammates to pick you up, you are still participating in the game. If you are hooked and a teammate is being chased, you are participating in the game. You can crawl, you can recover, you can suicide. This gives your teammates an increased chance of escape or an increased chance of escaping. If you are slugged and everyone else is dead, you are no longer participating in the game. The final survivor cannot really pick you up, you are simply waiting to bleed out.
In a 2v1 and the killer slugging for the 4k, you are no longer participating. You have no control over your death.
So yeah, the only solution to this is to punish the killer to prevent this.
The bleedout timer isnt a solution, its an outdated mechanic. Otherwise DC'ing is a solution too.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
If a survivor escapes through a gate, when all the generators haven’t been done yet, it should be worth 0 MMR points for the killer and survivor.
BHVR needs to stop the scenario where the killer is punished if they close the hatch and then the survivor escapes through a gate.
Doesnt really follow any logic there. Here are ways that the killer gains MMR:
Mori's, Devour Hope, Bleedout, Sacrificing.
Here are the ways that survivors gain MMR:
Escaping through the gate
The killer can easily patrol between the 2 gates before the survivor is able to open it up, and thus they can prevent the survivor from escaping even after the hatch is closed. A survivor escaping through the gate should always earn them MMR