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Predated
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"DH got buffed"
- distance is cut in 3 so you cant DH for distance to windows and pallets
- survivors that have deepwounds dont benefit from DH
- survivors get deepwounds from DH when before they did not
- time is reduced from 1 second to 0.5
What exactly got buffed here? Please? You never explained what the buff was.
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@wimpy said:
That bug has nothing to do with Dead by Daylight. This is the cause of the problem and a solution is described for your reference.
yeah, exactly, there was no way I could deduce where it was coming from, but it was literally just DBD and discord. Everything else just worked fine. Both discord and DBD just recieved an update, so it could have gone either way.
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@stvnhthr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333816#Comment_3333816
No they did not fix it. I can run around a corner and hit dh before the killer even knows I am coming, I dart out in front of him, dh, turn white when he swings and hits (he is reacting, so he is hitting his button after me) and I will go down. I get the points, screen upper right says I successfully performed dh, I hit my key first, I turn white showing the hit was dh blocked, and I will go down. When you say I am not successfully using it, you mean I am not being successful at using it in a way which works in the current game environment. In other words, I did not use the perk in a way other than the perk's description describes.
Yes, and the points you got would also have been reverted. And besides, you would be an exception here, as every single other instance I have seen of DH works exactly like its supposed to.
This is a scenario of where video footage would be needed on both ends. Because these are things that could have happened:
- you were going around the corner with DH, but DH input didnt reach the server untill the killer already swung(this is possible, the game predicts where you are going to run, so if you arent properly connected, the killer will be able to hit you)
- you did use it too early, and the game desynced(which requires you to verify gamefiles to get it fixed)
Thats pretty much the only realistic reasons I can conclude without any video evidence
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333792#Comment_3333792
survivor instinct.
Exactly, I've called it that before a few times, but for some reason, people never really grasp the concept when I call it Survivor Instinct. It would be such a huge help to soloq, while actually being bad for SWF(it does reduce visibility afterall), so no chance of it being abusable. At best, a 3 man SWF can know where their teammate is hiding, no more hiding in that danm closet all game Dwight.
The only downside, is that it makes it a lot easier to sell out teammates to the killer, let alone heavily reduce the value that survivor aura revealing perks have(altho, lets be honest, most of those are called out by SWF anyway).
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332956#Comment_3332956
Remember Skybilly? The reasoning behind removing that was because it was unintended. It wasn't broken. You got no advantage by doing that. It was just fun. They removed it anyway and made him feel even more clunky than he already was. If the sole purpose of removing techs is to remove unintended things, then they should remove all of them without exceptions.
You're assuming the techs are unintended when they work mechanically the way they are supposed to. Skybilly didnt really work mechanically the way it was supposed to. Skybilly created a few scenarios that were either impossible to get out of(even if done through the player's own merit), and a handful of moments that were giving an advantage. I remember a Skybilly with Tinkerer hitting me from the sky with the pink undetectable addon, thats a huge advantage over non Skybilly's and a factor no other killer really teaches you. And sure, that might be really hard to pull off, but its also a ton of extra angles to consider.
Thats not even considering the technical standpoint of what caused skybilly to exist behind the scenes in the first place. They are recoding the game on the background. Every big update, quite a few old files from blueprint are replaced with scripts and codes. It could be that skybilly's existance heavily relied on quirks that blueprint caused and are not easy to implement through the new code too.
We can go over a whole list of arguments why Skybilly should or shouldnt be in the game's current state, personally, I dont think he fits with the current existing addons. There would be too much going on for a single killer to keep track of.
If it is at all possible tho, I do think they should add a "skybilly" addon or addon combo, just like there are addons that pretty much bring back old curve billy. There are a few that are in dire need of a revision anyway.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Wiggling out of a killer's grasp is meant to be a challenge.
tbh, that 1 second difference made it from a 50 meter carry distance to a 45 meter carry distance. Both cases, more than plenty to hook a surv and still a challenge.
Nowadays, the extra wiggle effect means a killer drops down faster, in quite a bit of cases meaning they are more than 5 additional meters away from a hook, thats not even mentioning Boil Over, which increases the chances further and reduces the time needed to wiggle out too.
Wiggling out is a challenge, sure, but with the existance of Scourge Hooks being high risk high reward, that 1 second was big enough to not make it. That 1 extra second actually required skill in the sense of hitting all skillchecks that were quite hard to hit. Now, its actually even easier to pull off. I can down myself near drop down city and make it extremely difficult for the killer to hook me without falling down, and if I am talking with a SWF, you can bet your ass that the nearby hooks are already being sabo'd the moment you pick me up. At least the old version allowed the killer to choose to go to a nearby hook, or even a hook thats close to a hole. Nowadays, if you get downed near a hole, you pretty much wiggle out.
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@Ghoste said:
Devs want to keep the TR uniform, so it's either 24 or 32 or 40. I would be cool with 24m TR for Trapper.
That used to be the case when TR's were indicative of movementspeed/mobility. Nurse was always an outlier, Myers is too, Deathslinger and Wesker both have bigger TR's than their movement speeds. Honestly, I wouldnt mind if Trapper has a reduced TR based on how many traps he is carrying(making him have 0 TR for a while if he uses Trapper Sack) while also removing all setting sounds for survivors that are outside of the TR. That way he would have more room to place traps undetected.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333770#Comment_3333770
Server validation actually punishes the killer for having good ping, because if the killer and survivor both have good ping, then the survivor has a more accurate view of where the killer is and what they are doing, which makes it easier to dead hard on reaction, or to predict when they should dead hard.
Basically, what you say is that a survivor shouldnt have accurate view of where the killer is? Thats not a punishment, thats intended gameplay.
The same thing goes the other way around. Killers have a more accurate view of where the survivor is and where they are going. Bad ping would mean that a survivor goes one direction at one moment, and then is completely the opposite direction later on. If the killer has bad ping, and the survivor has good ping, then you have a similar situation of the killer having good ping and the survivor having bad ping.
Server validation doesnt punish anyone in particular, it just removed the exploit that bad ping killers and survivors had.
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@stvnhthr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331264#Comment_3331264
This is the sort of unhelpful remark which you should avoid making. This is an actual problem with the game working as intended. The developers have been unable to fix it for three years. No one is asking to change the game and make it so you can kill killers.
But... they fixed it like 1 year ago. Dead Hard is now a dedicated action. If a killer downs you if you "succesfully" used Dead Hard, then you didnt use it succesfully. Back in the day, killer ping was the main deciding factor for your Dead Hard to actually work. But now, if the killer's hit arrives at the server before your dead hard arrives at the server, then they simply hit you. If they arrive in the same order, Dead Hard even has priority.
So really, this is either a ping issue or a skill issue on your side.
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@RainehDaze said:
There are four Survivors in a game.
Four Survivors could potentially ban up to 12 Killers total.
Aside from the absurdity of one side dictating what the other one is even allowed to play (seriously, imagine you gave Killers three perk bans--think how that would go), co-ordinated blocking would mean some lobbies could lock off nearly half the roster and build to be even more immune to the rest.
I mean, yeah, but at that point, it would be at the cost of the survivors. If a high mmr SWF locks out all killers that are capable of performing at their level, by the time they enter a game with a killer thats left who hasnt been picked for another, more competent matchup first, they would be queued for 1 hour before they get a game.
Personally, I rather give the option to only lock out a killer specifically if they have appeared more than 5 times, and have that lock persist for 3 games and have a reset every single day. Even with a 4 man swf playing, they would need to play against 12 different killers over the course of 60 matches(with roughly 4 matches per hour, would mean they would need to play 15 hours in a row) to block all 12 of them.
This way, its kinda a win win. Players who love playing against killers like Nurse would never really block them, those who hate to play against Nurse would have to play against 5 Nurses first before having 3 guaranteed matches of no Nurse. This also reduces the amount of DC's as a bonus, since players need to legitimately end the game for it to count.
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I think the only thing missing is a way of having a general indication where your teammates are, rather than guessing where they could be based on the last time you've seen them
I would love to press a button, then have a killer instinct-like heartbeat appearing where my teammates are(killer instinct doesnt really show distance, just direction), or better yet, something thats similar to Doctor's Static Blast/Bitter Murmur where you can see an instance of the survivor lingering over a few seconds in the general direction. So you know which survivor is where, but only when you triggered the effect, and only which direction they were going the moment you triggered it(if they were running).
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303748#Comment_3303748
Eruption, Call of Brine, Deadlock
all locked behind a pay wall.
Those arent the best options tho
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@TOFFU said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309899#Comment_3309899
dude think 60% killrate is true....its 25% true
if dount realise.... at same post they say 60% killrate they say NURSE IS D TIER
have your own brains
ppl who say that KILLERS ARE GOOD are the only ppl with skill issue . bec you cant go up and see what good survs are and real game is
And Nurse, with the lowest killrate, still had 56%. As for the devs saying she's d tier? nah.
And I play in High MMR, a lot of killers are good. People who think they are bad are people who either cant acknowledge they have been outplayed, or people who have tried the same tactics 10000x and failed 9000x and still think their tactic is a winning one.
Sure, the highest mmr doctor wont be at the same mmr that the highest mmr nurse can play at. But Nurse's high mmr ceiling isnt even met by SWF. SWF's ceiling is somewhere between Blight and Nurse. As for "what good survs are and real game is". People are "good" survs if they win more than 50% of their games. The "real game" applies to everyone playing. If you're talking tournament tactics, that's not the real game. That's only 0.1% of the game. The tournament scene is TINY, compared to the game.
And if you are like "these killers are not viable at tournaments, and thus need to be buffed", that same logic can be applied to survivor perks and items. Because funnily enough, most of killer perks ARE viable in tournaments. In fact, some of the worst normal gameplay perks are amazing in tournaments because they almost solely counterplay tournament strategies. Monstrous Shrine was always amazing in tournaments. Forced Penance too. Both were the best at countering tournament levels of play.
Seriously, looking at data from the game, the majority of killers hover between 65% and 75% killrates. The average killrate is at about 69%. The 61% came from the top 5% players. Considering a 2k isnt really a tie MMR wise(you gain most mmr from your first kill, the least mmr from your last, this also means 2 kills gains you MMR, not as much as a 3k would(especially if the 4th went through the hatch), but you still gain MMR). Having the top 5% of players being at about 2.5 kills, is quite significant. Especially considering that realistically, you are expected to lose 50% of your games. Killers need to learn to lose more often. Winning 80% of your games earlier simply meant you werent in the right MMR scale. If you lose more than 50% of your games, you're simply not good enough with that killer to be in that mmr scale.
There is no MMR scale where players have to wait extremely long times for matches. Some MMR scales have less players than others, meaning you basically have the same 3-4 groups of SWF and 1-2 solo players and the same 7 Nurse players in the highest of MMR, but thats only natural. An MMR scale should ultimately become a bellcurve, that means if you're not at the highest point, you should expect to lose more often.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3314549#Comment_3314549
Except they will stop doing this and will wait for Stage 2 before leaving, if the last Survivor has a chance of jumping free.
As people have said, it was changed for two reasons:
- There's no point in getting off the hook. The Killer will just wait & smack you.
- Survivors were being spiteful and waiting out the full time of both phases simply to BM the Killer and make him wait as long as possible to leave the match.
Sorry but, if you're the last one dead; you're dead. Deliverance means nothing when the Killer literally has no other place to be except right at the hook, waiting for you to jump off.
1 has been changed. Basekit BT happens no matter how you are unhooked. That 10 second 10% haste and Endurance gives you plenty of room to reach the hatch or gate, if the killer smacks you, its an additional 2.7 seconds with 50% haste on top of that.
2 is a good reason tho, but easy middle way: give 10 seconds for the survivor to unhook themselves. That is enough for 3 tries or for 1 deliverance. If the survivor doesnt try in those 10 seconds, end the game.
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@Th3Nightmare said:
I read the developer update and I laughed.
The Eyrie of Crows is not the only surviving sided map, I will name: GARDEN OF JOY, Eyrie of Crows, GIDEON MEAT PLANT, SPRINGWOOD, HADDONFIELD, somes AUTOHAVEN MAPS, somes Mc MILLAN MAPS, and somes COLDWIND FARM MAPS.
I am surprised to see changes to the nurse and the knight that only 1 month has passed, since... other killers need it more than the knight: PIG, Sadako, FREDDY KRUEGER, the TWINS, and much more... all this seems unfortunate to me...
When are we going to expect changes in killers that really need it? The development and balance changes of this game are GOING very slow.
Eyrie of Crows is the only map that is TOO survivor sided. There are plenty of survivor sided maps, just as there are plenty of killer sided maps. Neither really matter untill the rates shift too much.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309377#Comment_3309377
The Game is survivor sided unless the killer is :
Blight, Nemesis, Nurse, Legion (with Iri button), etc.
I would love for Otz to do his "clown challenge" again vs Hen's survivor team.
Everyone knows which maps favor survivors. The stats show it too.
Big maps = recipe for failure for all killers that cannot move faster than normal.
The stats show that The Game is close to 50/50, for all killers.
Azarov's Resting Place is the second biggest map, much bigger than Eyries, slightly smaller than Mothers Dwelling. Yet one of the most balanced maps available, especially for slower killers.
The Game is one of the smallest in the game, including the fact that it has 2 floors.
What matters on maps is tile connection, generator spread and hook spread. You can have a map the size of the old swamp, if the tile connection is horrendous, the generator spread easy to patrol and hooks available the way they are now.
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@Th3Nightmare said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309372#Comment_3309372
Because Otz says so, does it already have to be? No.
I'm a 2016 player, and I tell you that this map is survivor sided.
I'm a 2016 player too, and I tell you that the map is actually balanced. You need a different mindset while looking at The Game. If you look at the individual chases, yeah, its a strong loop into a strong loop. But what if another survivor is forced into the same area? It's a str- oh wait, no pallets, no loop. It's a deadzone, into a deadzone.
The Game is about setting up deadzones and forcing survivors through the same area's. Each loop taking you somewhere new in the end to create a bigger deadzone. If survivors can still chain tiles by the time you have 4 hooks, you have failed to understand the way the map works
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@Milo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309752#Comment_3309752
Yeah that.
But I'm curious, how do killers know who is the weakest from name alone.
A lot of people play on steam, those with the least hours tend to correlate to the weakest survivor, especially in a swf
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307353#Comment_3307353
Which means 2k with ocassional 3k for killers if we distribute the survivors killed across all games. As killers MMR only go up with more than 2 survivors dead because how it works, killers are doing just fine.
Stop throwing the 61% killrate without even understanding it as an argument, please.
39% escape rate does not equal 61% killrate. The killrate is actually closer to 75%.
Reason being, a full game lasts about 15 minutes, so killers can get 1 4k, 1 1k and 2 3k's and be at 70% killrate. Survivors can have 6 matches in the same time, be tunneled in 2 games, die in 3 others and escape in 1, leaving to an escape rate of 15-ish%
Escape rate should be around 50%, killrate preferably at 70%
As for MMR only going up when a killer gets more than 2 kills, not really. It can go up with only 2, it can go down with 3. It depends on the MMR of the survivors you're facing. Having a survivor with 5000 hours and the rest being at 50 hours, with you being only 150 hours, you can gain mmr by simply killing that 1 survivor. It's an extreme case, but possible.
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I mean, personally I would say the adept challenge can do with a 4th perk, as long as they use their personal 3 perks. Everyone has access to common perks in the first place, so why not allow the 4th slot to be any random perk?
Other than that, 3k+hatch should give Merciless. Hatch doesnt spawn untill everyone else is dead in the first place and slugging for the 4k should really be discouraged.
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I personally hope the effects for survivors arent as obvious. Once survivors know its a Spasmodic Breath Nurse, its not too difficult to counter it.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
People will still fail to win against her and yell for more nerfs.
Blink attacks being special attacks is BS, by the way. The Nurse literally can't attack normally, because she's slower than Survivors.
So it's more BHVR giving Survivors what they want while not even thinking about how the nerfs work in a real gameplay setting in the slightest. Kind of like how they nerfed her Blink to begin with, while forgetting (or ignoring) that it's not only her offensive power, but also how she moves around the map.
You do realize that this closes the gap a little, m1 attacks are special because they take dedication, no shortcuts. Nurse literally is a shortcut. Not a single M1 activated perk is one that Nurse needs to perform. None.
As for Nurse cant attack normally: Matchbox and Spasmodic Breath. There you go, now you can use m1 perks on Nurse.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305379#Comment_3305379
As for what killers need basekit, well, no, they dont need a deterrent for survivors tunneling gens, as they have multiple basekit mechanics for that already: 1. patrolling gens 2. chasing people off gens. 3. hooking people for pressure. 4. slugging people for pressure. 5. killing someone. 6. keeping people injured. 7. creating deadzones around gens. 8. depends on the killer power, but thats something that indirectly pressures survivors consistently. If you are a Bubba with Tinkerer, I cant spend time looking at my gen because you are most definitely going to start revving when you're close enough to hit me and when its most likely too late for me to react. It its a Trapper, I need to know trap placements or I might be toast.Your list here is actually pretty amusing, points 1 and 2 are essentially the same thing, point 5 would be tunnelling which is the issue you are complaining about, point 6 is almost not an option considering how common COH is, and point 8 is really only relevant on certain maps/certain gens/certain killers/certain perks.
Lists however are fun, so lets talk about the defenses survivors already have against tunneling.
1. Basekit borrowed time
2. Additional anti-tunnel perks
3. Not unhooking right in front of the killer
4. Actually waiting for the killer to leave before unhooking.
5. If you unhook in front of the killer place yourself between the killer and unhooked survivor.
6. Dont unhook and run away, follow and hang back a bit so they killer may think its just you they are chasing, and actually take aggro.
7. Also follow to set up a potential pallet save or body block if the killer does down the unhooked survivor.
8. Heal the person you unhook.
9.If the person is on death hook and your not give yourself up as a slug or take a hook for the team to allow them more time to get away.
10. Unhooked person should not be body blocking for the person who unhooks them, that is giving permission to tunnel.
11. Finish gens before the killer can tunnel someone out.
As to your suggestion of a basekit DS, there is no way that you could possibly balance that, and its funny because they really tried, removing it in endgame and disabling on conspicuous actions and it was still unbalanced and had to be nerfed. If DS had actually only been usable for anti tunneling purposes, then maybe, but seeing as for years survivors were using it offensively against both tunneling and non tunneling killers it just cant happen.
There is one other problem with that idea and that is when it comes into play, almost all anti tunnel perks have the same issue, they kick in once the tunnel has already started and doesn't take into account Intent. Punishing tunneling when it happens is all well and good, but instead Imagine if we just made tunneling a lot harder, here is my Idea.
1. Basekit borrowed time stays.
2. Basekit Guardian (Perk would extend just like borrowed time)
3. Basekit 10 sec OTR (Perk would extend to full length)
4. 10 sec Quick and quiet no cooldown
5. 10 sec Calm Spirit
This right here puts the survivor speed at 4.68 m/s making them faster than the killer for 10 seconds so the killer has trouble keeping up and making up the ground if they tank the hit, they leave no blood or scratchmarks and make no sound and have their aura and screams blocked and dont set off crows, eliminating all tracking but visual tracking. The quick and quiet can be used, as an example, to fast vault for lithe, or jump into shack and while line of sight is broken jump in a locker or back out the window and get away.
These changes would do 2 main things.
A. Makes it alot harder tunnel.
B. Eliminates alot of incidental tunneling due to a killer accidentally following the wrong survivor.
This would be a pretty big buff and since it would cut down alot on tunneling, you are going to need to give the killer a little bit back, and my recommendation here is pretty simple give the killer Info on the other 3 survivors, since we ate blocking all info on the unhooked survivor.
1. 4 seconds of killer instinct on all 3 survivors
2. Unblockable aura reading for 6 seconds on the survivor who unhooks.
Thus will further deincentivise tunneling by helping fixate the killer on other survivors, and act as a bit of additional distraction for the survivor off the hook to get away.
Not gonna try and turn this into a big list so:
- Basekit BT is great against the lower tiers of killers, practically non-existant for higher tier killers
- those are perks, I was talking basekit mechanics
- Oh yes sure, let me try not being unhooked by a teammate who I have 0 control over.
- I mean, at least chasing off survivors off gens is different from patrolling gens, some killers cant, but a lot of killers can. This point assumes point 3 was solid
- assumes point 3 was solid
- assumes point 3 was solid
- I would only discount this because you're looking at the POV of the non-hooked survivor, I'll agree with trying to go down under pallets or in the open if you have a buddy with a flashlight.
- Not really possible if they(or you) are being tunneled, if you are capable of fully healing a teammate/being healed, the killer was pre-occupied with someone else and thus wasnt tunneling
- While a good tactic against a killer refusing to hook anyone else, it does counteract point 11, as that are not possible with this in mind
- Then the killer wasnt tunneling, irrelevant
- Since you brought it up in 2, let me bring in: Pain Resonance, DMS, Overcharge, Call of Brine, Eruption, Gift of Pain, Thanatophobia(mainly plague and legion), Corrupt Intervention, Dead Lock, NOED. Generators being 90 seconds a piece while someone who is being tunneled has been on the hook for less than 60 seconds. Dead Lock and NOED alone make it possible to camp someone out and still get a second kill. Someone who tunnels tends to spend less time than a camper due to reduced animation speeds. Not even talking about survivors needing coordination to do so.
So, out of all points, point 1 is kinda valid, but only against lower tier killers, and point 7 is kinda valid if a pallet is in reach. 11 doesnt matter because of comms and killer perks, 2 is literally a perk. There needs to be a BASEKIT option that deters killers from tunneling, and there isnt really any. A survivor team who is perkless and itemless cant do anything against a tunnel without comms, while a killer who is perkless and addonless can prevent survivors rushing gens.
And its really easy to add in a basekit DS that is balanced: Disable it after 2 gens have been finished and only have 1 charge(since if 2 people get tunneled before 2 gens are gone, you're doomed to lose anyway). BAM, no real way to abuse it.
You dont even know why DS was nerfed to 3 seconds, do you? Because it wasnt due to it being unbalanced. It was because of people using DS and Head-On together. You could jump in a locker, stun the killer, jump in the locker again, stun the killer with Head-On before they had a chance to step aside, then jump in the locker again and have a friend ready with a flashlight save to stun the killer again. This is why flashlightsaves in lockers are now impossible, and why DS has been reduced in time to no longer have Synergy with Head-On(as 5 seconds to charge Head-On is simply too long). DS with 5 seconds and conspicious actions was literally just an anti-tunneling perk. If they tricked you later on, then they didnt to anything for X seconds, meaning you basically had a 3v1 for that entire duration, just so 1 survivor could stun you for 5 seconds. That is a LOT of wasted time for the survivor, only a mild annoyance for the killer. Let alone that there is nothing wrong with using something as an offense either. Pain Resonance and DMS are meant to be defensive perks, yet you only see them being used offensively too. DS before conspicious actions was a bit unbalanced, sure, but even then, you could just eat it and get rid of it. It was only really busted in tournament level squads, and lets be honest, do you win more often against those squads? I doubt that. With your logic of nerfing, Calm Spirit and Self-Care were OP perks.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3306622#Comment_3306622
No it’s not better than those. You also vastly underestimate the cost of kicking a gen. Between walking over, kicking, and walking back you are on average wasting close to 10 seconds chasing no one. That’s 10 sec x4 survivors = 40 seconds. You are losing almost half an entire gen to survivors for EACH kick. Now if you wanna be more generous and assume 1 survivor is on a hook that’s still 30 seconds, 1/3 of a gen each time. That is extremely costly. So it’s not just kicking a gen, that is a hefty cost.
You vastly underestimate the amount of times you casually are within range of a gen that needs to be kicked regardless, because its closer to finishing. Then you apply the basekit 2.5% on kicking(2 seconds gone instantly, minus the excess regression from other perks), the kicking time being faster since 6.1 saving you almost another half a second, combined with casually passing by and thats pretty much no time lost.
And 10 seconds of chasing no one, with 4 seconds going to the gen, 2 seconds kicking, 4 seconds back, basically means you went to a generator that is nearly 20 meters away from you. Just as a matter of perspective, that is going out of your way on Midwich to kick the upstairs Library generator while coming out of the classroom next to it(assuming the door is still closed), and then for some reason walking all the way to the classroom. You dont really do that unless you are already on your way to check. If the gen is far, you're gonna kick it anyway, if you're on your way down, might aswell kick it, otherwise you leave it.
Seriously, the only reason you think this perk is bad is because you're looking at impractical things. You dont go out of your way to kick a gen for current Eruption. You do so because you either had other perks that also work while kicking(like CoB and Overcharge), or because you happened to pass by. And from my experience, just passing by makes me kick easily 3 gens(which would cause a 15% regression on all in my case). Dead Lock can be played around by simply touching 1 gen(the one that is most out of the way) for half a second, then go on other gens 1 by 1 to fully avoid Dead Lock. Sure, its gonna take a bit longer than normally, but with 2-3 survivors on it, that means on average, 3 gens will still pop in 100 seconds and DeadLock doesnt do anything, even if you interrupt them.
This Eruption would also force survivors to work on less gens to keep the regression at a minimum, which is similar to the deadlock tactic, but you'd incapacitate them for 5 seconds, on top of the 2.5% flat regression you apply on kick, in addition to the 5% kick per gen. Excluding other perks that can coexist with it. All in all, the cost is only huge if you kick gens regardless of context. But if you just casually kick gens while they are near, the cost is near 0 but the pay-off is considerably huge.
Seriously, you're underestimating things here. Only on maps like Mothers Dwelling or Shelter Woods where the gens are spread out far while the map itself is also big(compared to Azarov's Resting Place, which is equal in size to Shelter Woods, but gens arent as spread out) is the perk truly going to suck. But CoB and Overcharge also suck on those maps.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305559#Comment_3305559
If the identity of a perk lies around the most busted status effect in the game, then that perk's identity needs to be reevaluated.
To be fair, the only reason its busted is it's duration. Hinderance, Broken, Exhausted and Exposed are all a lot more busted overall. Its that there arent really many killer perks or addons that inflict them, and most that do, are quite inconveniant(blood echo, for example, only works on those who are injured and when you hook, most exposed perks and addons require work, the only addon I know that is actually busted due to little effort and maximum gains is Clown's Pinky Finger if you miss, you give hinderance, making it easier to hit the second time, really easy to apply, practically guaranteed to work for quick downs)). Incapacitated isnt the issue, its the lack of info around its application.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3306615#Comment_3306615
Personally i would be fine with 10-12 sec as that would allow you to get set up for an unhook or to a different gen, but 5 sec does nothing for regressin because that regression is gone in 1 second, so you could scap the incapacitation but you would then need a 20 sec gen block like merciless storm and have the block only apply to gens being worked on when the down occurs.
Its kinda the point that the 5 seconds of incapacitation doesnt do much for regression, which is exactly why the stacked regression would be where the perk shines most. Its not really uncommon to be able to kick 3 gens before you down someone. That means you have 3 gens that have basically Pain Resonance and a mini DMS. The whole point of the change is that in a SWF, we can be on a gen, have a friend say they are about to go down, have 1 person progress the generator and another one waits untill they are downed. Then there is 0 seconds of regression too. That is the main issue with the perk. So while that 5 seconds is back in 1 second of survivors working on it, you still lose X% based on gens kicked.
The only thing I would change is applying the incapacitation in an area around the gen, so letting go of the kicked gen doesnt circumvent things, while also meaning that running away from the gen would pretty much grant the same result in regression. So it gives you X% guaranteed(which is 5% minimum) and 3 seconds of regression if survivors happen to be on the edge when it happens. And sure, they might be able to keep pushing the same gens, but it doesnt negatively affect Solo survivors(who dont need any additional pseudo-nerfs already) while it gives you a lot of time to go back and kick them again.
You have to keep in mind that this is in combination with other perks existing, if Pain Res, CoB, Overcharge, Pop and Eruption couldnt stack(like exhaustion perks, something I would really love over the current stacking), I would nearly double the regression of all individual regression perks and I would even consider Eruption to be fine as is. The whole reason the incapacitation can be 5 seconds max is because you have to consider perks like Pain Resonance, Thrilling Tremors and DMS leading to gens that cannot be worked on for nearly a full minute. And having any generator unprogressable for a full minute is maybe fine early game, but in a 3-gen scenario? Impossible to finish. The best chance survivors have at that point, is to not work on gens at all and wait for the killer to kill the rest of the survivors(which might aswell be hostage keeping at that point)
Its kinda the same issue back with Ruin and Pop before the meta overhaul. You couldnt buff Surge, Eruption, Thana or Gift of Pain, because of Ruin and Pop existing. Eruption is kinda the exact example, Eruption the way it is now cant exist, because COB+Overcharge, or Pain Res+DMS also exist.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305379#Comment_3305379
"What killers need is something like Fire-Up."
The only killer I've ever found a use for that perk was Michael Myers before the 6.4 patch (the one that killed mobility perks). Bamboozle and Fire up no longer give Michael Myers (as well as Legion/Wesker) faster movement speed through a window.
Generally speaking the killer should break every pallet faster than the last pallet as a base mechanic (it could literally be just a base mechanic change where every pallet/wall breaks 0.1 seconds faster than the last pallet. Survivors should take +25% longer to heal every injury (so if you heal 4 times the 5th heal is going to take 200% longer than normal).
-"Survivors need protection in the early game that they lose as the game continues"
If the killer has two bad chases at the start of a game then that's usually a loss. Deadlock greatly slows down the game to help mitigate this. The killer needs something to make sure that survivors can't drag out the first chase. There is no way to come back in a game where you lose the only good three gen on the map and 3 generators with your first down unless you have some crazy setup like you are playing trapper and put all of your traps around the basement (but then they just dont go to the basement).
"As for what killers need basekit, well, no, they dont need a deterrent for survivors tunneling gens"
If you lose 3 gens in the first chase (including the best three gen) then the game is likely over. You tunnel the first person you hook and then face camp the other person to death at the end of the game. That's boring but that's what DBD has become because that is efficient play.
I don't remember when exactly it was changed but survivors used to die much faster on the hook. Considering we have Rebecca's perk that time should probably be reverted. Hook timers used to be 45 seconds per stage and were changed to 60 seconds per stage. Efficient survivors use the extra 15 seconds to finish generators. The intent was to give survivors more time to rescue the survivor (as well as make camping less rewarding).
Think about a game with 6 hook states. Imagine the difference between having 360 seconds to make saves vs 270 seconds to make saves. The old game severely punished survivors who had the mindset "gens before friends". Ironically the increased time to die on the hook is probably pushing killers to tunnel harder than ever before.
"The only killer I've ever found a use for that perk was Michael Myers before the 6.4 patch (the one that killed mobility perks). Bamboozle and Fire up no longer give Michael Myers (as well as Legion/Wesker) faster movement speed through a window."
Yeah, AS A PERK, hence why it so desperately needs to be basekit. Plenty of killers can get value from the stats, but its never worth the slot. As for no longer giving the faster movementspeed, cant find it anywhere. Must be a bug if it affects Myers. At best I'd see Legion and Wesker having that changed, as those are technically not vaults, but ability animations.
"Generally speaking the killer should break every pallet faster than the last pallet as a base mechanic (it could literally be just a base mechanic change where every pallet/wall breaks 0.1 seconds faster than the last pallet. Survivors should take +25% longer to heal every injury (so if you heal 4 times the 5th heal is going to take 200% longer than normal)."
This would affect Solo a lot more than SWF, and it barely touches SWF. Especially if you include breaking walls. Same for healing slower. Generally a bad thing, unless you also want to reduce generator times back to 70 seconds per gen and give them permanent info on each other.
"If the killer has two bad chases at the start of a game then that's usually a loss. Deadlock greatly slows down the game to help mitigate this. The killer needs something to make sure that survivors can't drag out the first chase. There is no way to come back in a game where you lose the only good three gen on the map and 3 generators with your first down unless you have some crazy setup like you are playing trapper and put all of your traps around the basement (but then they just dont go to the basement)."
If the killer has 2 bad chases at the start of the game, thats most likely due to dedicating to something they shouldnt, or not dedicating enough to something they should. And that isnt a thin line either. As for dragging out the first chase, the more dragged out the first chase is, the quicker the next ones are. Same logic applies to losing good 3 gens, you dont really lose good 3 gens and 2 bad chases unless you have 0 priorities. As for not coming back, what are you talking about? Killers have the oppertunity to end the game at any point. 1 gen remaining, 0 gens remaining, gates being opened. All situations where the killer still can get a 4k. Will it be less likely? Sure, but impossible? No. Survivors have it the opposite. If they make 1 tiny mistake too many, and the game is unwinnable unless the killer starts making a lot more mistakes. The killer can make as many mistakes as he wants, if a survivor cannot capitalize on that mistake in that moment(hence, the huge difference in SWF and Solo at the moment), your mistake didnt really matter.
"If you lose 3 gens in the first chase (including the best three gen) then the game is likely over. You tunnel the first person you hook and then face camp the other person to death at the end of the game. That's boring but that's what DBD has become because that is efficient play."
No, its not. The devs have even stated multiple times that the first 3 generators are kinda meant to be popped. If you lose the best 3 gen without starting your first chase there and survivors still finishing 3 gens, thats kinda on you. 80% of the hooks are done between 2 and 1 gens. The first 3 gens give you 1 or 2 hooks, the next 2 gens give you up to 10 hooks and the average amount of gens finished is 3.5. So thats pretty much entirely false. In fact, a lot of killer players seem to think losing 3 gens is bad. But if you pushed the survivor in the area of your future 3 gen, then there is no real way you should lose hope with losing 3 gens after 1 chase, because then you have a deadzone in your 3 gen area, and you lost 3 gens you clearly didnt care about.
"I don't remember when exactly it was changed but survivors used to die much faster on the hook. Considering we have Rebecca's perk that time should probably be reverted. Hook timers used to be 45 seconds per stage and were changed to 60 seconds per stage. Efficient survivors use the extra 15 seconds to finish generators. The intent was to give survivors more time to rescue the survivor (as well as make camping less rewarding)."
It was changed when gens were upped from 70 to 80 seconds, so that a killer couldnt camp 1 survivor, then use a mori, before survivors even had a chance of finishing 3 gens. As for Rebecca's perk needing to revert that change, well, with that reasoning, Ruin, Pop, Pain Res, should reduce generator times to 60 seconds per gen. And yes, the intent to give more time to rescue and making camping less rewarding PERFECTLY fits with the increased time on hooks. The longer a survivor stays on a hook, the longer the game is a 3v1. If you dont camp, survivors have more chances of unhooking, making it basically a 2v1 for a while as 1 is rescuing. If survivors stay on gens and wait that extra 15 seconds, you have more time to dedicate to the chase and still be in a 3v1 scenario. The only time the extra 15 seconds is bad, is if the killer is camping or proxy-camping. And Dead Lock made Rebecca's perk be pretty much a neccesity, as the only time Rebecca's perk is useful, is when someone is camping or when someone is right next to the killer when he hooks(at which point, going back to a gen and work on it is costing you time). The only things you can fairly buff on killer without gutting perks, is action speeds.
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@Blueberry said:
That version would suck, terribly. No one would use that. Honestly just change the Incapacitated to instead just block the gen, maybe even up the regression a bit. This change makes it equally effective against swf as it is solos, now allows survivors to do other gens/heal ect instead of just standing there, and doesn’t allow the gen to keep regressing while it’s blocked. The little extra regression, maybe 15%, makes up for the other said nerfs. The issue was the Incapacitated not allowing the player to play the game and hurting solos more than swf, now that’s fixed while still keeping it a good perk. It also now has less synergy with other gen kick perks.
Not really, kicking gens isnt that hard. It sounds terrible, but its better than Dead Lock, has better coverager than Jolt etc. The biggest issue here is the communication part, but just switch the "survivors touching the gen" to "survivors within 12 meters of a gen" and tadaa, more value from the incapacitation.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305554#Comment_3305554
The incap effect is literally the entire identity of the perk. I'm not a fan of eruption either but I value it as a unique entity and I'd see that preserved in some way.
Yeah, and 5 seconds of incapacitation is plenty. Heck, I wouldnt even mind that anyone within 8-12 meters of a kicked generator gets 5 seconds of incapacitation. It would give killers 5 seconds of reaching a hook knowing none of the kicked gens would be popped. That way, doesnt matter if there are comms or not.
But more than 5 seconds is just awful gameplay.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/359475/eruption-changes-suggestion
Much simpler fix raise base regression to 13% cut incapacitated by half does the exact same thing it does now but doesnt feel terrible.
I mean, any incapacitation that lasts longer than 5 seconds is inexcusable. 10 seconds if its a killer ability.
So no, incapacitation has to be gutted down.
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@burt0r said:
Okay, it has reached a point of comedy to see the "stop the hook timer when killer is in X radius for Y time"-idea getting proposed again and again and everytime the person that posts it thinks or presents it as NOVEL, when it is already 4-5 years old and didn't work in it's iteration back then.
Yeah, but a few things have changed:
- There are less loops to be chained, let alone loops that are incredibly powerful to the point of basically being an infinite
- Generator speeds have been dropped, twice.
- Generator regression has been made more basekit
- An EGC has been added
- Toolboxes have been nerfed
- Chases have been made faster
- Maps have been scaled down quite a lot
So simply stating "when the killer is in X radius for Y time and not in chase, but there are still gens, stop the timer" is a really good method to stop facecamping early on. It gives reason for the killer to go away from the hook. Back in the day, it was a lot more abusable, because a lot of killers that really relied on camping would suffer from it, and killers that didnt rely on camping didnt really care anyway. So you were just making weak killers weaker.
Right now, not a single killer really needs to rely on hard camping or tunneling to win games. There really is no reason to camp. And the moments that would need camping, are not really early in game. So for the heck of it: "while more than X gens are remaining" could be added to the mix, so that survivors can at least finish Y amount of gens so an insidious camping bubba with NOED, Dead Lock, No Way Out and Bloodwarden simply is not viable. Because the only reason its viable right now, is because he can facecamp and survivors that are not on comms cannot coordinate. You can "easily" finish all gens and escape with coordination, but its nearly impossible without.
So just to create the clause:
- has to be within 16 meters of the hook for 10 seconds or longer, with a buffer of 5 seconds(which the game considers camping too)
- has to NOT be in chase
- has to have more than 3 generators remaining
Once all 3 clauses are true, pause the timer. If any of them is false, continue the timer. And the only thing that truly suffers in viablility is basement bubba.
And while I personally would not like this solution, it is the second best solution. The best solution is simply adding a system like pings in the game, so you can convey information regardless of comms, but that solution has been ignored for 3 years.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300283#Comment_3300283
It's not the same logic. You made that up.
Nor are they balanced the same.
They don't even PROCESS the same.
This is the single worst argument I've ever seen you make.
They are though, both progress the game for either side, both raise and lower pressure. One of them only needs to do 25% of the objectives to finish everything, while the other needs to do 100% of the objective to finish everything.
They are balanced in very similar ways, just like some killers, survivor addons are mostly ignored.
As for processing the same, well, yeah, they do. Charges per second, adding charges, slowing down the usage of charges, speeding up the action, adding a secondary function that normally isnt available, heck, even increasing the range.
The only difference, is that each killer has a specified addon that cannot be used by any other killer, while survivors have a bigger array of addons, but are usable by all of the survivors. Yet, while survivors have more addons, they have less addons to remember. If I were a killer making a build, I'd have to keep 55 addons in mind. Which is a lot, but if I were a survivor making a build, I would need to keep 600 addons in mind.
And honestly, back in the day, things were literally made with the same philosophy, you had a killer addon being able to remove 2 healthstates, and a survivor addon adding back 2 healthstates. Killers had the option to kill without hooks, survivors had the option to do gens without chase. I could go on. The balance of the game has changed towards different aspects, 85% of killer addons have changed. Only 5% of survivor addons have changed.
Survivors are due an addon pass. For the sake of consistency(having no more than 2 addons having the exact same effect), balance(adding 16 charges to a medkit is quite a busted addon, adding an addon to make your flashlight beam visually brighter to no real effect, is less useful than the 16 charges is busted) and just to give items utility that is on more equal grounds.
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@DBDVulture said:
-"There needs to be a basekit deterrence for early tunneling"
Where's the killer's basekit deterrent for survivors tunneling gens? Deadlock should be basekit. The perk should extend the lockout for 30 seconds. There should also be a rollback feature added so you cannot get 2 gens done even if both are done at exactly the same time.
I mean, what they personally should have done is not add the 10 seconds basekit, and instead add a 15% penalty when more than 2 gens are being worked on at the same time(same reduction if 2 people work on 1 gen). That would have been healthier.
As for what killers need basekit, well, no, they dont need a deterrent for survivors tunneling gens, as they have multiple basekit mechanics for that already: 1. patrolling gens 2. chasing people off gens. 3. hooking people for pressure. 4. slugging people for pressure. 5. killing someone. 6. keeping people injured. 7. creating deadzones around gens. 8. depends on the killer power, but thats something that indirectly pressures survivors consistently. If you are a Bubba with Tinkerer, I cant spend time looking at my gen because you are most definitely going to start revving when you're close enough to hit me and when its most likely too late for me to react. It its a Trapper, I need to know trap placements or I might be toast.
What killers need is something like Fire-Up. Something that increases the power of killers based on how many gens are done other than just 3-genning. People really underestimate the power that Fire-Up brings if it were basekit, flashlight saves get harder the more gens are done, pallets are removed even faster the longer it goes on(on top of the 10% basekit already), window vaults are viable with the majority of killers after just 3 gens being done, its worth to kick gens before going into chase more often because its faster, the only thing that Fire-Up would be missing, is movementspeed while carrying a survivor. This makes late game tunneling a lot easier, and gives 0 need to tunnel early on anyway.
Survivors need protection in the early game that they lose as the game continues, killers need an increase in power the further survivors progress. This might make 4 survivors surviving untill 1 gen is remaining more common, but it also means that you can still kill at least 3 survivors if you play your cards right. Giving killers more power early game defeats the purpose of punishing tunneling early game.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297550#Comment_3297550
How does new DS deter ANY TUNNELING? I have yet to see 1 killer that even pauses for a second to eat new DS when it's obviously there (like going into locker and stuff).
It does deter it a tiny bit, but only later in game. The later you use DS, the more value you get. Even then, its basically useless against half the roster.
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@Sycamore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305106#Comment_3305106
I've seen the videos talking about how PT only takes away a few seconds, but those few seconds are a massive difference when you are in game. Stacking PT and Resilience on one gen it feels like that gen flies by, if both Survivors have resilience - entity have mercy. Then just heal after finishing the gen.
You're underestimating Resilience. There isn't risk involved at all when you're a good survivor, when paired with Windows a good survivor is unstoppable because they no longer even have to guess their pathing. When you're not injured - you're just a survivor. When you get injured mid chase - then you can't be downed. If the killer drops chase to ignore the immune survivor, they are left with a buff to gen speed, and everything else - which is really bad for the Killer. It's a lose, lose, LOSE situation of all the time they wasted chasing that survivor in the first, place, forced to drop chase because they become impossible to down, and then are more of a problem when ignored. To get this benefit, you just have to get injured, which normally you should have to avoid.
Window's is just too much information for survivors - for free. Pair it with Resilience it's broken. Pair it with Detectives Hunch, and the Survivor has all the information they need in the game. There is a hidden ability Windows has, if the Killer is chasing close to you, you can track where the chase is happening when you watch pallets drop. An added bonus the perk doesn't even need.
PT and Resilience might go quite a bit faster, but for that to happen: 2 survivors have to be uninterrupted and injured on 1 generator, you not have any form of haemorrhage and spend about 28 seconds healing, uninterrupted.
In this scenario: 1. you dont really care about that generator position, so what does it matter? 2. you consider another survivor to be a more valuable target(which, is hard to believe). Or 3. you do care about that generator position somewhat, but not enough to check once every 40 seconds.
Resilience is a good perk, but it has its risks. Being injured means you cant afford working on gens that are away from loops, means you cant afford making a single mistake. Even with Windows and Dead Hard. And if a survivor is impossible to down, thats you making a lot of mistakes.
As for Windows being free, I mean, thats like calling Pain Resonance free(you literally just normally play the game and take the survivor to a tactical place, just because they have a different aura doesnt mean you do more work), they both still take up a perk slot. It has no hidden ability, it literally just tracks aura's of vault locations and droppable pallets. I also have a "hidden ability" in the main game, which is callled "look at crows" if a crow flies away, there is a killer or survivor there. If a lot of crows fly away in quick succession, odds are that there is a chase.
Thats not even considering the fact how many of those survivor perks are ran because of the killerperks+ the fact that a LOT of tunneling happens very early in the game these days.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299994#Comment_3299994
Just because they both serve the same root function doesn't mean they are the same. Nor should they be balanced the same.
With this same logic, Generators can go back to the old 70 seconds, just because they serve the same root function with hooking/killing survivors, doesnt mean they are the same, nor should they be balanced the same.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299346#Comment_3299346
What false equivalency?
For starters, add ons are optional for Survivors as you don't even have an item unless you bring one. All killers have powers.
It's also a false equivalency because you literally cannot call two things equivalent in a 4v1 game. It is BY DESIGN not equal.
Addons are also optional for killers, as for not having an item: chests exist.
As for 2 things equivalent, I am not, I am calling 4 things equivalent to 1. never did I say survivor addings need to be 1:1 correspondance to killer. But they SHOULD be 0.25:1, which they arent. They are more like 0.1:1
Let alone that if items are more reliable to use, other, currently "unfair" mechanics can be reduced in effectiveness. Would be an item meta, but in return of worse bodyblocking, I dont think killers might have issues with that
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299640#Comment_3299640
It'll increase swf efficiency and cut down comm chatter by giving certain and absolute information. That is a buff. I'm glad you agree.
My concern is not merely balance, but the feel and atmosphere of the game. When I play with my group I enjoy the idle chatter, but also the call outs as to what the killer is doing. This will make that almost entirely redundant. Holding m1 without it being broken by moments of excitement or surprise sounds terribly dull to me. My gut feeling is that that uncertainty is core of why the game is so popular and without it it will begin to flounder.
It will increase it only very slightly. Toolboxes have been nerfed, genspeeds have decreased, gen regression has been made a lot more accessible(and some basekit). And giving absolute info on survivors is a SLIGHT buff(at most instinct on the killer, thats far from absolute info.). Looking at the killer and pressing a button with a cooldown to give killer instinct to teammates, is an extremely minor buff to the point of basically not buffing SWF.
As for the atmosphere of the game, well, it wouldnt really do too much tbh. In fact, in a lot of cases, it would allow players to be a lot more casual on the survivor side. And the biggest bonus, killers can recieve buffs that are a lot more significant because soloq no longer suffers from the lack of information. That would easily compensate the lack of information that has to be shared between players.(let alone that people still have to call out WHERE they are going, how they plan on running, and people screaming at their teammates to not be ridiculous as they can see pretty much exactly what they are doing).
Its the change that DBD shouldnt need, but with killers being balanced with SWF in mind, soloq needs a buff. You cannot nerf SWF without nerfing Soloq even worse. But you can buff soloq a lot while barely buffing SWF(if they benefit from it at all).
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299574#Comment_3299574
The problem is the precision. There's a huge difference between "i am being proxy camped" and seeing pinpoint exact location that allows you to sneak by and use reassurence/unhook. Same with buckle up or any other aura basekit.
Any information beyond what regular swf can tell (e.g. I am close to shack but can't specify more) is free survivor buff for everyone. It takes things away from game. All we really need is getting solo and swf to same-ish level. Meaning make as many buffs to all survivors, as possible so long as it does not buff swf in any (noticable) way.
The survivor instinct would be exactly like killer instinct. You can see where, but you cant see how far away it is exactly, let alone that the instinct triggers where the killer was, not where it is. So unless a killer is standing still, its nowhere near Kindred. And SWF can sneak around and use reassurance too.
As for Buckle Up, you can already see the aura's of people downed, it would just give progression updates. Which SWF can do already. I can say "I am ready to be picked up". Buckle Up does that too.
As for what SWF can do: "I am at 9 o clock running between the pallet and window, running clockwise, killer can hit me in 10 seconds"
That is more accurate than killer instinct can ever be. And practically as accurate as seeing their aura.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299606#Comment_3299606
It's impossible to buff solo without buff swf.
Nope, plenty of things you can add. Again, the icons, the perks, the "survivor instinct"
@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299574#Comment_3299574
You don't think it would be a benefit for swf to know where all survivors and by extension, the killer is at all times? Really? Have you ever played with a group? Does your group demonstrate flawless and constant communication?
Not really, they would have to talk less. For example: using "I am going clockwise around the killershack, between the window and the pallet, with the killer on me, he can hit me in 10 seconds" gives basically the same info as seeing a survivor around the killershack and a short killer instinct.
The SWF already knows where the killer is on the map.
As for flawless and constant communication, well, do you think their actions would be flawless and constant if they had that info?
You want solo survivor to have the same potential as SWF, otherwise you can never balance killers properly.
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@Seraphor said:
Yes please.
This would complete 2 of the 3 much needed solo survivor buffs, that would bring them up to SWF level without inadvertently buffing SWF as well.
The last would be some form of quick chat function for alerting survivors to where you / the killer are in a very vague way like 'near' and 'far'. E.g. "The killer is here!" and "Coast is clear."
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299544#Comment_3299544
This! Much better then kindred basekit or any other overboard suggestions 🙂
I personally would love a Survivor Instinct thing too, to reveal where your teammates are. Something that works exactly like Killer Instinct. Its not as exact as aura's, but its really good to know where your teammates are too. And in the case of a killer chasing, you could use that exact same method through a teammate giving his location when they see it.
Both would make a lot of perks a lot weaker, and you might as well give survivors full on aura reads of each other(personally, I dont see too much of a benefit for SWF, but a huge benefit for solo if they would, but that would make those same perks worthless the way they are now). For me, it just points out that there are a lot of survivor perks that should be basekit(buckle up is the most obvious one) because SWF has that info for free, but that is a whole different discussion.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
Firstly, no! Huntress is fair and balanced, especially the hit box being slightly big.
Second, if you are being chased by her, you should be constantly focused on her position, especially when she holding a hachet and getting ready to throw! Plus, the audio cue is distinctive enough to know she is about the throw it. You can hear her grunt, the Hachet shine sound (which let's you know that she is fully charged), and the very loud grunt and whooshing sound as she throw its.
If you are not looking behind you as she chasing you, you have no one to blame but yourself for refusing to use commonly game sense and should be aware of what she doing.
To be fair, at a certain distance, her sound is gone entirely, and it is quite good information to at least hear her (fully)winding up her hatchets while you're inside her lullaby
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298862#Comment_3298862
False equivalency. Items are not the same thing as killer powers.
Except they kinda are. Same slots, same addons logic(making the power stronger, last longer, act differently), same activation button, same design philosophy. The only difference is that killer powers do not have charges that can run out. Survivors were kinda meant to look through chests or bring in items. The balance of the game is equally dictated by killer powers as survivor items, same logic goes for offerings.
So what false equivalency?
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297224#Comment_3297224
No, they don't. /thread.
Yes, they do. Or otherwise PyramidHead doesnt need one either.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297253#Comment_3297253
How does nurse's existence make it unable to buff pig? Unlike survivors there's not just the shared basekit on killers. But I've seen another thread of people complaining about nurse even in a theoretical situation in which all other killers were on blight's level; So i dont wanna go in depth here.
I also remember the quote about mistakes being different, especially second chance perks covering said mistakes and 1 killer mistake costing the game.
Also: I'm not surprised survivors play selfish beceause I know thats what the game is about. the few times I played survivor i also did the same. Maybe I was just wrongly associating shared responsibility with my point about survivors being angry at losing a player and suddenly calling it a "unwinnable 3v1" despite the 4th player having played in that trial. But a selfish player not wanting to "tank their healthstates" shouldnt complain about losing a teammate.
As for the swf-solo gap.There are no ingame mechanical differences between solo and swf, this premise is kinda ignored by a lot of people, the devs LITERALLY cannot nerf "swf" without touching "solo" too. They also decided to not ever try to do so.
I think I'm just a salty Killer because some survivors want all that UI-icons or free aura reading in the name of emulating comm's advantage when comms dont even do that stuff that freely. Comms are a tool to be used akin to chat wheels or a ping tool like deathgardens arrows. Survivors should be more honest and say "give me free aura reading additional to the comms-emulation stuff". Or like already said I see them through my bias and theyre already that honest.
@Ryuhi also has some good points in their answer to my post.
I didnt specify any killers tho, I just said killers. Killers in general still need a buff. But they cant, cus Nurse. Same for second chance perks, cant nerf them, cus Nurse.
And there is a difference between tanking healthstates and hookstates, and tanking those hits actually being a detriment to the game. I had a game today, where a player was being tunneled, if I didnt tank the health and hookstate but instead sat on a gen, we could have pulled off a 3 man escape. Not because I tanked 2 hits and a hookstate, but because the killer could easily continue chase on that survivor while having me hooked and unable to progress gens, causing another teammate to go off, slowing down the game even further. AKA, me not tanking things would have been more beneficial.
And while there are no ingame mechanical differences, there are a lot of meta differences. And those are important. Buckle Up and Bond(with unlimited range, which makes other similar perks like Aftercare, No One Left Behind, Situational Awareness, Empathic Connection, Empathy, Inner Focus, Kindred, Rookie Spirit and Spine Chill practically worthless) are basically basekit to them. Let alone that with the amount of information shared, any perks that can be replaced with a ping to killer location have a lot less worth too.
And you might say "just pings" are fine, but really, I've played with really good survivors who had Bond+Open Handed while I had too(just bond tho) and survivors on comms, and the people on comms were still more accurate in recieving and giving information, than literal aura reading between survivors.
Thats not even talking about perk info like Kinship being known instantly by SWF, and by soloQ its not even known, and even if it is shown(I havent seen it in ages), people already ran towards you, leaving scratchmarks and thus cannot approach the area triggering it without giving themselves away. Or perks like Dying Light being known instantly by SWF, but still takes a hook before its shown to solo. Or actually showing who is running Leader, so you dont run towards Mikaela who left equally fast as that Jeff and was at equal distance, only to notice she doesnt have it and now the heal is slightly slower(which is maybe minor, but its the minor things stacking up why SWF is the powerhouse they are right now). You cant nerf SWF without making Solo even worse, and you cannot punish people for wanting to play with their friends. So yeah, the UI images are absolutely neccesary. Me seeing someone in an animation on the opposite side of the map while hooked and not going there because I thought they were doing a gen, but they were cleansing a dull totem instead and then started going on a gen, on comms, I would have heard them give that info and join them so the generator would finish. Without comms, that survivor sinks a lot of time in that generator that will get lost.
As for the bond aura reading, I am merely talking from experience running Bond and 1 person having Open Handed with good survivors on small maps, while comparing that to times I've been with tournament squads on comms, and the fact that soloq basically needs to use 5 perkslots across the team to give them basically the same info as a SWF heavily limits their potential, let alone that that info only really works on smaller maps. And the increase that SWF gets with the same info? Well, they have to talk slightly less and look around a bit more. The biggest reason why I think the devs said that straight up aura reading between survivors would be too much, isnt because it would elevate survivors to insane heights, I barely see SWF's performing better than they do without aura reading, it just the amount of perks needing to be reworked(all of the previous mentioned ones, including some killer perks, like Knockout) to make that change happen.
As for stealth killers, well, they already kinda need a rework in how they work. Even without comms, Myers and Pig heavily suffer against higher mmr solo survs. Ghostface still stands a chance, and thats mostly due to how scuffed his reveal mechanic is nowadays. Besides, Stealth Killers got indirectly nerfed with the map remakes in the same way that Nurse got indirectly buffed: Line of Sight blockers. But a lot of killers inbetween suffer from those same line of sight blockers(like Huntress, Slinger, Blight, Billy, Clown, Plague, Trickster, Demogorgon, Cenobite, Artist, even Twins). And to spawn in extra LoS blockers would give away that you're facing a stealth killer if you dont hear a Nurse blink.
And the reason why its called an unwinnable 3v1, isnt because that 4th survivor didnt exist at the start, its that there is no longer a 4th survivor participating in the match. The whole premise of the survivor side balance of the game relies on 1 survivor being on a gen, 1 being in chase, 1 being on a hook, and 1 unhooking/healing/taking a hit for the person in chase. Once you remove one, you have 1 person on the hook, 1 sitting on gens as long as possible untill they need to leave for the unhook, and 1 in chase. Aka, you reduce gens popping every 90 seconds, to gens popping every 180 seconds if you're good. Survivors only having 60 seconds per hookstates, while gens went up 10 seconds, means there is more time a killer can afford to chase, which is a healthy change, but it also means there is more time a killer can afford to (proxy)camp.
This is not to say that killers are overpowered in any manner, thats not my claim. My claim is that there is too big of a difference between soloq and SWF that can no longer be ignored, and an ACTUAL deterrence to early game tunneling would mitigate that, since SWF's finish 2 gens before the first hook anyway.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297248#Comment_3297248
You are welcome to your opinion, but I disagree with the vast majority of what you just said, including your reasoning. Killers making mistakes early can and does absolutely cost them disproportionately, especially due to how the power dynamic works in the game. There is no point to having a strong lategame if the game ends before you have a chance to even achieve it, and/or if your opponents continue to progress faster than you are able to achieve momentum. Its the entire concept behind snowballing in general, and why "carry" types in genres like MOBAs have exceptionally worse performance if they have to catch up than they do if they get an early advantage.
I never said it didnt cost them, but it can still be salvaged. A survivor going down early? They will very likely be tunneled out early on and the game is lost. The killer having 0 hooks and all gens are gone? They can still get a 4k. Its gonna be really hard, but they can. 3 people against a killer of equal skill with 4 gens remaining? The killer would have to screw up badly and the survivors play near perfectly to turn that into a 3 man escape.
As for the entire moba comparison, sure, but with that also comes with the fact that both sides have a carry. DBD survivors dont have a carry type really, especially those without comms.
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297253#Comment_3297253
You don't seem to understand the difference between guesses and reads/estimations. There is a tremendous amount of information you can discern secondhand through other information, and its honestly one of the biggest strengths of perks like kindred, empathy, windows, and even alert. That very same metadata is part of what gives SWFs their strength, they are able to use deductive reasoning to fill in the blanks by having some of the others filled in. The argument of shared agency is that you need to be willing to accept things that are beyond your personal control, which is something that is always the case in a team dynamic in a game. Anyone who plays a support class in any game that has them is very familiar with this concept, and that you can only be a part of a team rather than try to control the actions of others. Your job is to adapt to the actions of the people around you to the best of your ability, to mitigate the damage they take/cause while boosting the damage they can cause/giving them opportunity and advantage. If you go into team based compositions wanting to force your agency onto your teammates, you will never be satisfied with anything less than teammates that are better than you as a player.
You want an issue to giving solos fill on SWF tier info? Stealth killers need to all be entirely reworked. Stealth gameplay is a concept that is already disproportionately affected by communication by design, so it becomes entirely obsolete with that level of information. You have not even considered it with your comments and instead focus on how it would make survivor perks less effective, which is a pretty biased stance that shows you aren't considering the actual implications of your suggestions. Basekit Fire-Up is nowhere near as impactful as entire killers needing to have their entire concepts reworked.
Also the classic Nurse Whataboutism. Just like how nerfs can be nuanced to affect the extremes of SWFs, buffs can be nuanced to not give disproportionate value to nurse. Don't assume its impossible simply because you can't comprehend it, as even most of the proposed nerfs that reasonable people have usually revolve around addressing her unintentional disproportionate value in circumstances.
No, i understand, I was literally going for guesses. Reading a situation or making an educated guess is entirely different. And yes, there are a lot of sources of information for soloq that are really valuable. Thing again, SWF on comms has that basekit, and they can communicate between their own perks. As a solo survivor, to synergize with your teammates perk, its a mix of luck, guessing, educated guessing and confirmation where possible. That is exactly the reason why soloq is the one in desperate need of closing the gap between swf. Yes, other people in my team can make decisions that are a detriment to my own actions, but not a single survivor should have the power to utterly destroy the chances survivors as a whole have. Just to go back on your moba example, even if the carry ######### up, the rest of the team is still a force to be reckoned with. So there are 2 solutions here: 1, buff the remaining survivors if 1 dies early on, 2, add a deterrence to tunneling so that its much less likely for a survivor to die early on. Personally, I rather see 2. It still allows for a massive snowball.
As for the snowballing, yes, its fine that there is a snowball effect, but right now, its too easy to start rolling and it starts rolling way too fast if the killer tunnels early on.
No, basekit fire-up isnt gonna solve all issues, but its the ONLY mechanic that could be added to buff killers, without making s tier killers impossible to face as soloq.
There is no Nurse whataboutism. She needs a nerf. Without Nurse being nerfed, killers in general cant be buffed. Without Nurse having a deterrence to tunneling, she needs to be nerfed to a state where you cant win as Nurse untill you're already good. Having both allows killers in general to recieve another buff, while giving Nurse only a relatively small nerf. You literally cannot nuance buffs against nurse. They tried many, many times. There simply is none. Its much easier to buff or nerf around SWF, because all you have to assume is that 4 instances of the perk can exist, and the survivors can communicate. Increasing gen regression basekit would benefit Nurse, increasing bloodlust rates would overpower a lot of killers, increasing vaulting speed would overpower quite a few killers, making pickup and hooking animations faster benefits Nurse massively, the 10 second gen increase has heavily increased Nurse's killrate. Adding exposed status effects to basekit things benefits Nurse. Adding deepwounds to basekit things(like, I would personally be interested in a short lunge to give deepwounds, its hard to get a short lunge pulled off, it would buff myers in t1, and it would add slowdown to all killers) heavily benefits Nurse. The list goes on and on. Perks like Starstruck and Awakened Awareness were actually healthy perks on release. Except for Nurse.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297207#Comment_3297207
I like the argumentation about the shared responsibility. Its funny how everyone is ignoring everything a tunneled/camped out person did before their demise. Like if the game only started with 3 survivors, which isnt what happens when someone gets tunneled out.
The "something" as compensation for solo-swf-gap closing" mentality sadly is strong in our community because nobody knows or can agree to what that something can or should be.
Theres also the issue SWF(strategy, mentality) + Comms(3rd party tool) being untouchable regarding nerfs. Thus we can only buff solo upwards, while many people actively dont want to fairly/equitably apply that logic to the killer side too.
The issue with the shared responsibility argument is that its not really. There isnt any communications, so there is a lot survivors cannot do being blind in the game without it being basically a guess. In SWF, shared responsibility is by far the biggest argument you can make for preventing a tunnel. In soloq, not really the case. In DBD, you'd be surprised how many people are unwilling to tank a hookstate, even though they havent been hooked at all, just to grant some more time for someone who has been tunneled. You need basekit comms for the shared responsibility argument to make full sense.
Hence, the gap between solo-swf being a lot more important. Personally, I dont really see a huge issue with giving aura reading on teammates as a basekit, the other option would be giving something similar to killer instinct and HUD info, which is basically equal info. The only issue I see with it right now, is that it makes a LOT of perks obsolete or a lot less functional(Better Together/Situational Awareness, Empathy, Empathic Connection, Aftercare, Bond, Kindred(kinda), No One Left Behind(kinda), the 2 key addons). All of these are perks that arent used by SWF, because they basically have the same info already. Giving them aura readings, you can see where they are, what they are doing, and guess whether or not they are being chased. The main benefit I can see for SWF is that they can optimize the time needed in meeting up, but overall, that can be mitigated by giving killers Fire-Up as basekit.(also, Blindness magically becomes a lot stronger as survivors start to rely on that aura reading more than gamesense in the long run)
AKA, you can close the gap between SWF and SoloQ relatively easily without really affecting the killerrates. And its a lot easier to buff killers when the gap between soloq and SWF is much smaller.
Besides, there is 1 easy argument to make why its basically impossible to buff killers right now(other than Fire-Up basekit): Nurse exists.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3297192#Comment_3297192
The risk is that gens can (and often are) done in the time it takes to tunnel one person out. It's a chicken and egg scenario which you keep trying to only focus on one instead of both. Ironically the best anti-tunnel measure is to be good at looping and wasting the killer's time, as it forces them to either disengage and look for a weaker link or punishes them disproportionately for their sunk cost investment. Time To Down is a built in counter measure in itself, the problem is people are unwilling to take shared responsibility for their shared agency with their teammates, which is in itself a double edged sword. They can be extremely (in)efficient on gens, just like they can be extremely (in)efficient in chase.
You've listed a bunch of things that survivors need because SWFs can exploit that information, and have not offered a single tangible thing that killers need to bring them up to the level of the SWFs that you want solos to merge with. Even just adding time to gens does not provide a realistic degree of benefit, as gen times themselves have far too large of a variation in either direction due to perks/items/etc. Lopsided adjustments like that with a "we'll fix it later" mentality is extremely unhealthy for a pvp environment, you need to take the core issue and focus on resolution for both sides evenly in order to address the opposing sides of arms race scenarios.
"Ironically the best anti-tunnel measure is to be good at looping and wasting the killer's time, as it forces them to either disengage and look for a weaker link or punishes them disproportionately for their sunk cost investment."
To quote certain killer mains: "1 small survivor mistake can cost the game, 1 big killer mistake can still be salvaged". Mainly focussed on tunneling. You can be a god at looping, and make 1 small mistake early on and you've lost the game. The killer can be horrible at looping, waste an entire minute tunneling a survivor, and still turn the game around.
As for killers closing the gap with SWF, we cant yet, because of Nurse(Hag and Spirit, to an extent too). There is plenty of things you can do to close the gap between SWF and most killers, but things that dont also buff Nurse and that list of things is pretty much non-existent. Buffing m1 perks and basekit m1 capabilities is a huge asset for weaker killers, but you cant do that unless Nurse, Spirit and Hag get altered. Decreasing stun times would be amazing for m1 killers, yet, Nurse would be a slaughter house with Hubris. Giving killers the ability to walk faster while carrying a survivor makes bodyblocking harder for survivors, but it would buff Nurse with Starstruck. Giving killers the ability to vault faster, well, you have a problem with Hag.
Besides, the gap between SWF and soloQ has only been increasing over the years, and has been an issue since 2019. The gap between killers hasnt been as big. The gap of Myers facing a god tier SWF is merely a bump in the road compared to the gap that the grand canyon between soloq survivors and a god tier Nurse.
Normally I am all in favor of dealing with both sides equally, but since the last "dealing with both sides equally" gave killers a 10% reduction in everything chase related, reducing overall average chase from 40 seconds to 32 seconds, while all generators were increased by 10 seconds flat(which also buffed any % based slowdown like Gift of Pain and Thana, on top of the buff those 2 perks also recieved), while all survivors got to combat the camping and tunnel issues is a 10 second basekit BT(and then basically nerfing all other anti tunnel perks, when the whole idea was that perks were not needed to patch issues in the vanilla game), I'd say a patch focussed on closing survivor gaps is a lot more neccessary than also making sure Myers and Trapper can keep up with the minor buff that SWF will have due to those changes.
And personally, killers in general barely need a buff at this point in time(the only thing I want basekit is Fire-Up, having increased breaking, vaulting and pick up speed the more gens are done would fit killers in general a lot). Its mainly lower tier killers getting a basekit addon: Myers getting Jewelry(I wouldnt add more because the devs dont intend to rework Tombstone Piece), Trapper sort off getting the darkened traps, but instead making them slowly invisible, wraith getting some of the shadowdance bonus, Pig getting Amanda's Secret basekit(basically the same treatment that Wesker and Nemesis have), Freddy simply needs more tokens, Onryo needs the bloody finger nails and Clown basically needs to have Starling Feather basekit(with the addition that pinky finger needs to be limited to only 1 bottle). I can have some ideas for Doc, Legion, Ghostface and Trickster too, but honestly, assuming Fire-Up would be basekit, they dont really need much as their main issue later in the game is windows.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296817#Comment_3296817
It's almost like Survivor add ons are 25% as powerful as Killer ones. Hmm.
Not really, on average, they would be 15% as powerful overall at best. Personally, I'd say 10%. There are 55 normal survivor addons(57 including the event ones). Out of those addons, 21 being as good as useless, and 12 being extremely niche to the point of requiring more than 2 perks to make it work. A lot of killer addons barely need to care about the perks, and those who do, are basically extra perks. So thats 33 addons, out of 55, that a killer never has to worry about, even if all 4 survivors run those addons. For the Key, you basically have to worry about 2 addons, Medkits, 3 that you need to somewhat worry about, toolboxes, 3 realistically(4 if you are really afraid of sabospeed), flashlights, only 1 that basically every single flashlight user uses. Maps? You dont really need to worry about any of the addons.
So out of 55 addons, thats 9 addons that you should worry about if multiple people run them, if people run items in the first place. Thats 9 addons that are about 25% as powerful as killer addons. 2 of which being about 30% as powerful, blood amber and anti hemorrhagic syringe, BNP is annoying, but most people use them on the first gens, which dont really matter, BNP is only really powerful when there are 2 or 1 gens remaining. And that is comparing those addons to the average of killer addons, not comparing them to the most powerful killer addons. The most powerful survivor addons are maybe 10% compared to the most powerful killer addons.
Its almost like survivors need an addon pass too. Hmm.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296840#Comment_3296840
We dealt with an overpowered nasty Decisive Strike for almost 5 years before they nerfed it in 6.1.0.
Now that I've had time to experience life with this new 3 second DS I am glad they overnerfed it. Even at 3 seconds it is still a meta perk for many players.
With new DS it takes skill to get value from it. Make sure you go down in a place where 3 seconds is actually useful to you.
In other words, get good.
"With new DS it takes skill to get value from it. Make sure you go down in a place where 3 seconds is actually useful to you"
Ignoring: deadzones, mobility killers, dedicated servers deciding whether or not you still had endurance when you got hit.
With that in mind, its more luck based than skillbased. The only reason they reduced it to 3 seconds is due to Head-On. Thats it. It doesnt take much extra skill to use.
And besides, you could even slightly tweak DS to fit with the new idea, instead of working for the first 2-3 gens, it would work for 1 additional generator. That way, there is guaranteed no DS after 3 or 4 gens are gone, which is huge info.
In other words, get good, dont tunnel against soloq.