Ciabe
Ciabe
About
- Username
- Ciabe
- Joined
- Visits
- 158
- Last Active
Comments
-
@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3418943#Comment_3418943
Play Blight or Nurse only.
You will win a lot eventually
I was referring to survivor soloq. I have a relaxing 80% kill rate on killers I play. I just don't enjoy it as much. I end up feeling bad in how one sided the games are.
-
Went from losing 80% of survivor games to 90% with healing nerfs in soloq. Most days I see no escapes. I haven't seen an open exit gate in a few days now.
I feel like soloq exists just to provide killers with ego boosts. Games aren't even close. A working mmr system would sure be nice.
-
Yep, MMR seems to be severly broken in this game in the name of short queue times. Can't let those top players wait for low level fodder to slaugther.
Proof of this is simple. In a good MMR system you will eventually reach an equiliberium point where you go 50/50 on your win/losses. In DBD you can easily lose 90% of your survivor games over hundreds of matches and never get easier matches.
-
@NotAnotherDoctor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3418624#Comment_3418624
This take is legitimately asinine.
Some people live out in the countryside in the middle of nowhere. Some people only have one internet provider to choose from.
You can't just suggest they stop playing online games because of a bad connection.
It is not asanine. You just have to pick games that aren't ruined when people drop in and out. Disconnect in DBD wastes ~15 mins of 4 other people's time everytime you dc, or 1 hour total.
There are literally tens of thousands of multiplayer games out there. Many with round times of 1-4 mins or not ruined by a single dc. Go play one of those if your connection is unstable.
-
Each killer has its own MMR rating that you get matched against. In an ideal MMR system you reach an equiliberium point with each killer where you go 50/50 win rate (although Behavior seems to think that should be 60killer/40 survivor).
So yes, your favorite killer like has creeped into higher MMR than a new killer. Just lose 5-10...or 100 matches and you'll get easier matches. All your survivors mmr are linked...and I still haven't found bottom after 500 losses.
-
@TheEternalOne said:
Appreciate all the feedback. helps me understand a little...
I play survivor mostly, but have been trying killer to do daily quests...
its just beyond frustrating, but i guess thats what happens when you miss out on a game for 5 years hehehe I do really enjoy it, and from players I have met, they say the game is a million times better today than it was... so be glad i didnt play 5 years ago :)~
Each killer starts with a new mid range MMR unless you run one up real high then they all default high. So if you are lower mmr killer, your first game or two you will get rocked likely on a new killer. Just go in expecting that or sit in the basement until they exit.
As for survivor, the mmr system is practically non existent. It does not balance out after a few games. My escape rate is under 20% over the last 400 games and I'm still constantly matched against very good killer players with a complete scatter shot of survivor skill levels from the occcasional looping king to complete potatos that crouch walk the whole map while someone is in obvious chase. It doesn't matter if I soloq or SWF, I'm always way WAY outmatched by the killer it finds. Last game I did 4 gens (165 repair points!), 5 unhooks, 7 heals, escaped 3 chases, and we still lost. It feels like a 1vs1 game at times with the teammates I get.
-
Sort of. Buy auric cells on a store,then use them to purchase season pass. Regain 1k cells from finishing the pass and they can be used anywhere. I used that over multiple seasons to transfer 3k from epic game to steam. Everytime you purchase it seems to pull from store specific cells first and then refunds generi universal cells.
-
On pc (120 fps monitor with unlocked frame rate) I try to hit them usually but only succeed about 10%. 5% of time I go early and explode. I have not improved at this at all even with hundreds of hours and practicing out of game on trainer websites. It feels totally random and unfair. I also choose not to play rythem video games because I fail at even easy mode of those.
-
It is so much fun to be first, second, and third hook and out of the game in under 3 mins. Yes, many killers do tunnel and it works very well for them. I managed 10 games in a hour. 1-2 minute queue, 1 min load (looking at you potatos out there), 3 mins including chase time and I've been hooked 3 times, no others hooked yet or sometimes even injured. It makes this game so very fun. And yes, I am actually trying, but this mmr system works so awesome. Gives me a nice 90% loss rate.
-
It's already so weak as is. I like to run it, but 85% of my games it never activates even once. If anything it needs a buff. Make it work against screams and gen pings (things that show your gen while you are working on it).
-
A game can be super fun and people will still instantly bail the instant they start to lose (or even bail while winning, 3 gens down and they dc on first hook). You need incentives/disincentives to keep people invested. When we sit down to play any game be it board or video game, we have a mutual understanding that we will see it through, or at least pass the first bad dice roll. If you make a game so "fun" that no one ever loses for a moment, it will be boring.
-
@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3193708#Comment_3193708
no stop ruining all decent perks, they just need to revert it it was fine before 6.1
It is ruined in its current form and encourages new players to learn bad play tactics that bring down their games. 50% is the max it should ever be. At higher than 50% it becomes superior to having a teammate heal you which it never should be. Teamwork should be encouraged, not punished.
Currently 16 seconds for teammate to heal you, but that's 16 seconds for 2 people (32 total) + time to get together + risk of being near teammate. Selfcare at 50% would be 32 seconds for one player and no risk of being near someone or time spent running over to someone. Not to mention the advantage of immediately splitting after an unhook. Self care is too strong at 50% with no conditions.
-
Since this thread got so much more traction than my own I want to point out the 39% survival rate isn't reality for the majority of players. It is far worse.
@Ciabe said:
Edit: This is NOT a discussion of SoloQ vs SWF. Enough other threads arguing that.
Statistics are the best liars.
I don't doubt 39% is the actual mean of escape rate for all survivors from all matches globally. However, that is masking a very big lie through omission with selective statistical presentation. Pre Patch BHVR happily released perk usage rate by MMR tier to justify itself. Note how they did NOT break down escape rate by MMR this time. The reason is quite simple.
High MMR SWF survivors probably have an escape rate of 50-75% going off data I can find and I think most true high mmr killers would concur. Those high mmr survivors also play a lot of games. So you have a small subset of your playerbase, maybe 10-20% who play lots of games that are skewing the number higher to 39% (which already seems painfully low).
So this means our low and medium mmr survivors are likely seeing escape rates of 15-25%, 30% tops. My own data from just under 400 games since 6.x patch pegs it around 15-20% (yes I'm probably low tier mmr now) and I've seen similar data sets from others.
What we need is escape rate broken down into MMR ranges and SoloQ vs SWF. Would also be interesting to average every players individual escape rate, then take a global mean and median of all players. This would remove impact of a pro survivor playing 1000 games in a week vs casual playing 10 games in a week. If there is a huge difference between the mean and mode, that would heavily indicate stats being skewed by a few highly skilled survivors. Same thing is done in economics, looking at the average/mean income isn't helpful because you have a few outliers earning tens of millions of dollars while the median shows your more true "average".
I'm also unclear how they intend an elo based mmr system to function if they aren't aiming for a 50/50 win rate. Seems like they were really close to good pre patch with 47/53 (although even that was getting skewed by high escape rate survivors). If most of your survivor player base sees under 30% win rate and killers get over 70% win rate, your mmr distributions are going to look like two inverse curves. Fear my mspaint skills to see the issue. How are you going to make good matches when each player base is lumped together on each end? With two different pools you have to match between, you would ideally want them to be similar shapes. This is probably why high MMR killers had bad queue times early on before they widened the spread.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TPJJM9MWMGFK/image.png
Edit Update - Adding this here because I posted it farther in.
Because people don't seem to understand how easy it is to produce a 39% global escape rate while at the same time having terrible escape rates at lower mmr tiers here is some example data of the kind I would love to see from BHVR.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5NTYRHTJ91T1/exampledist1-jpg.jpg
In this case, look how easy it is to get a global 39% rate while having vastly different escape rates for different mmr groups. This does not indicate a healthy balance and 39% hides a very ugly reality.
Now that first example is assuming equal play rates. As no surprise to anyone, pros play a lot more than beginners.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3ZVVOQQWMU8G/exampledist3-jpg.jpg
Now in this case I'm assuming the top 10% of players play up to 5 times (2nd top tier playing 4 times as much) as many games as the bottom 25% of players (big assumption on my part although conservative I suspect). I have also towned WAY back the escape rates on the upper end and mid tier, yet I still end up with just 39% global escape rate they are reporting. If we had kept my first assumptions on the top tier escape rates that would require even worse escape rates for the bottom tiers to reach the 39% when weight for game frequency. The other scary aspect is only 25% of the player base is seeing an escape rate over 50% while 75% see escape rates of 25% or worse in this scenario.
My ultimate point is that reporting a 39% escape rate is masking a huge issue in the lower 50% (or maybe 75%) of survivors. Public data on the lower 50% of players is non existent outside our own records. High tier play stats is more accessible and we can weigh in the smaller population size into the data.
Yes, my data is all hypothesis. I'm making a point that we need more data from BHVR because what they have provided is a extremely misleading and deceptive in attempt to mask a severe balance issue for a large percentage of the player base.
Because people don't seem to understand how easy it is to produce a 39% global escape rate while at the same time having terrible escape rates at lower mmr tiers here is some example data of the kind I would love to see from BHVR.
In this case, look how easy it is to get a global 39% rate while having vastly different escape rates for different mmr groups. This does not indicate a healthy balance and 39% hides a very ugly reality.
Now that first example is assuming equal play rates. As no surprise to anyone, pros play a lot more than beginners.
Now in this case I'm assuming the top 10% of players play up to 5 times (2nd top tier playing 4 times as much) as many games as the bottom 25% of players (big assumption on my part although conservative I suspect). I have also towned WAY back the escape rates on the upper end and mid tier, yet I still end up with just 39% global escape rate they are reporting. If we had kept my first assumptions on the top tier escape rates that would require even worse escape rates for the bottom tiers to reach the 39% when weight for game frequency. The other scary aspect is only 25% of the player base is seeing an escape rate over 50% while 75% see escape rates of 25% or worse in this scenario.
My ultimate point is that reporting a 39% escape rate is masking a huge issue in the lower 50% (or maybe 75%) of survivors. Public data on the lower 50% of players is non existent outside our own records. High tier play stats is more accessible and we can weigh in the smaller population size into the data.
Yes, my data is all hypothesis. I'm making a point that we need more data from BHVR because what they have provided is a extremely misleading and deceptive in attempt to mask a severe balance issue for a large percentage of the player base.
-
@Entitled_survivor said:
From a business standpoint streamers are like salesmen for your product,,streamers being unhappy with how games turn out with cheaters and being forced to endure being held hostage or taking dc penalties make your product look really bad to potential customers,,Also may i ask what other thing should they prio before cheaters ?
What to prioritize first? How about new content, new features (ai players?), balance (perk updates, map fixes), new events? Every game has cheaters, they are only being targeted because they are live streaming. I picked up this game from their content uploaded to youtube. Watching live is boring like watching live broadcast tv...not to mention impossible as a parent with kids when you can't dedicate more than 5-10 mins at a time to watch something.
-
On killer I consider 2k+ a win, draw at worst if I barely got those two kills. 6+ hooks and 0-1 kills I consider a tie to close loss.
On Survivor I consider 2+ escapes a win. If only I escape gate then a slight loss. Hatch is a cop out draw.
-
@Jay_K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3197407#Comment_3197407
Whilst I do agree that removing DC penalties for everyone is a bad idea allowing streams who apply for it have no DC penalty would be fine. Last time this topic came up in regarding to streamers having no DC penalties resulted in so many people moaning "Thats unfair that only they should get no DC penalty".
bottom line is Cheaters target streamers. for general players like use we are very unlikely to even see a cheater. I have never been in a match against a cheater unless its a subtle cheater which i couldnt care less about.
However
What I don't agree with is your statement saying that they should just upload games and not live stream it. Live streaming is their full time job. Yes most streamers (not all) also upload to youtube but majority of their revenue comes from live streaming on twitch. I think its unfair to just outrite say "well don't stream the games and just upload them".
Streamers shouldn't have to stop doing what they love just because a select group of kids decide they want to ruin it. Behavior needs to address this and address it NOW or they are going to find that all streamers are going to use their influence in the community to stop people playing which will have a massive impact on the game.
I haven't dug far into streamer income, but I do know most of the big names get 10-50k views for each youtube upload which is far more than they have live on Twitch. So the big names aren't exactly struggling.
That said, I don't know that it is really BHVR's problem to make sure streamers can optimally monetize their activities. It is in BVHR's interest to have positive content created that indirectly promotes their product obviously. However, I'm not sure how much obligation they are under to cater to them. Software developers burn money like a wildfire and chasing down exceptional exploits that primarily affect .01% of your playerbase might not be the best return on that money. Most games just handle cheating reactively with the reporting system, getting banned and having to rebuy the game usually filters them out fast enough (counter strike always had cheating surge after Steam sales would take price down to $1-3 per key). I'm unsure why that mechanism isn't work well in DBD while it is adequate in many other FPS games.
So in the meantime, if creators want to make content they still can. If the big name live streamers have to take a break from live broadcast...I'm not shedding a tear. If anything opens up opportunity for small name streamers.
-
It's very short sighted. Removing dc penalty will result in 90% of games being ruined. Every game will have 1 of the 5 players rage quit in the first 1-2 mins over anything. No one will commit to stay in a game the moment it looks like they might lose. They'll just bail and jump to the next game. Spooky doesn't seem to realize how self destructive this would be. He would never have good matches to stream because they would all have a dc in them from someone.
Better solution is to expand the streamer program so they can dc without penalty. Alternative is they just stop live streaming and only upload recorded matches. As he admits, majority is stream snipers. Without the live streamers, the obvious cheater would be bored and go to other games.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3197096#Comment_3197096
Im not high mmr and i see cheaters very often, latest one were able to blind me from the sky, and teleport around the map.
2 days before, i was playing Wraith with the addon so i could see gen progress, there was a survivor that soloed a full gen in 25 about secs, with no toolbox and no perks to boost speed. He did attempt to hide it by joining the match with a toolbox, but i "disarmed him" with franklins.
And there are a lot of cheaters like that guy, where you barely notice it, another example was a 4 man SWF, i managed to down them all but when i picked one of them up, he escaped as if he was using DS, but I had not downed the guy before, and i did not get the DS debuff icon. But he managed to save the rest. Had i been a new player, then i might not even have noticed it. (and he didnt even have the DS Perk)
Most cheaters do it so that you barely notice it, for example a little faster run speed, or like the gen repair speed, i would not have noticed with out that addon in my Wraith game.
Two types of cheating, the streamer target and the subtle cheater that wants an edge. I obviously never witness the streamer type. The subtle one has been very rare for me, maybe 1 in 50 games I've actually noticed. It is obviously a problem, but there are cheats on both sides so I think we can still generate better data than the blanket "39% escape rate" they have provided so far. Nothing will ever be perfect and no game is ever free of cheaters. If anything, cheaters is usually a sign of a games success. People don't tend to cheat unpopular games unless it is trivially easy.
-
@jesterkind said:
I've never fully understood this argument. Surely if you're dropping far enough to be matched with absolute babies, you're also getting matched with at least comparably low-skilled killers?
It's been my experience that the matchmaking can toss you into some mildly frustrating lobbies from time to time, but it's hardly the only thing that ever happens. Mostly just bringing the closest thing to a self-sufficient build you can is a good insurance against that.
You would think that, but it doesn't seem to be working that way. There is something wrong with how mmr is working lately. I have made a couple threads on this already.:
@Ciabe said:
Low survivor MMR is just plain broken since the 6.x patches. Since the big version patch as survivor I have lost 271 games, won 53, with an escape rate of 16%. The more I lose, the worse my teammates get, but killers stay brutally good. Nurses with perfect teleports, blights, plagues, etc (except for last few days which is 100% wesker). I've watched enough streamers to be able to identify competent killers.
As for teammates, we usually finish with 0 gens completed unless i did them myself. The few games I win I have 160+ gen repair points because I had to do 3-4 gens all myself while still unhooking and healing teammates. Rarely I'm matched against a very new/poorly played killer and get the easy win or the killer is just losing on purpose. Lately I'm commonly downed before I can even touch the first generator, thank you Weskers throwing me into a dead zone corner with no protection.
In theory I should be getting easier killers (if not the easiest/newest/weakest), but from what I've been reading there is some mmr floor. Once you reach mmr 1600+ everyone is lumped into a pool together and you mostly can't drop out of that group no matter how much you lose once you reach it. This just isn't fun like this.
Pre 6.x patch I typically had a 50% escape rate as survivor (no, I didn't use any of the perks that were nerfed hard). It feels like they are tuning this game for the top 5-10% of player base and those of us in the bottom 25% get a brutally unbalanced matchup. Yes, I have tried SWF with voice chat and we still are lucky to get a 1-2 man escape at less than 50% rate. Yes, I know survivor pros with 5k+ hours can get out all the time, but I'm only at ~200 hours which should be enough to escape against equally matched killers.
When I play killer I've got a 65% rate of 3+ kills and I know I'm pretty bad at it.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347038/39-escape-rate-is-a-lie/p1
-
@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3196352#Comment_3196352
More data does nothing really, we'll see what we want to see in those things anyway.
Just like what we are doing today.
Your position does not have much strength behind it no matter how much you repeat it without explanation. Our world is built upon data. Yes, you can have excess data that provides no benefit (looking at you Apple Watch sleep data), but in this case we have almost none of the data. Do we need complete match history publically available? Of course not (although some games provide that). However, I have laid out what data we do need that would prove or disprove the existence of a significant problem. If the data were to match my two example data sets, would you disagree that it shows a problem?
@[Deleted User] said:
You can hardly get any useful data with all the cheaters the game has anyway
While cheating is a problem, appears to be heavily on the high mmr side and targeted at streamers. Different discussion topic for many other threads. My 2cents is people should stop live streaming and just upload videos after. Then cheaters would never get their air time. However, I know some like the live interaction with viewers.
-
.5 second is easy to get screwed up by lag. It's just very unreliable (for legit human players). If the killer is running 300ms lag, that's over half your dead hard window gone.
-
I sometimes run Ruin without Penti...although that's because I don't have penti unlocked.
-
Duplicate post.
-
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3196352#Comment_3196352
That's interesting but is still completely hypothetical. If there is an issue with the lower skill levels what would you suggest to fix it?
Personally, I think Reassurance needs a buff as the skill floor difference between camping and countering camping is quite high and survivors need either icons or a basekit Kindred type of effect.
What would you suggest?
Solutions are going to be complicated and multi pronged, but also outside the scope of what I want to discuss here. I'm trying to draw attention to the need for more data so we can first prove the existence of a problem. Proposing fixes without knowing where the problem resides is a pointless mental exercise. We need to identify the problem, determine the cause, then we can discuss fixes.
That said, a lot of this exploded from the 6.x patch changes, such as gen times. Problems were there before, but not nearly as bad. I think that would be a first place to look for causation, but solution could be something else.
-
Because people don't seem to understand how easy it is to produce a 39% global escape rate while at the same time having terrible escape rates at lower mmr tiers here is some example data of the kind I would love to see from BHVR.
In this case, look how easy it is to get a global 39% rate while having vastly different escape rates for different mmr groups. This does not indicate a healthy balance and 39% hides a very ugly reality.
Now that first example is assuming equal play rates. As no surprise to anyone, pros play a lot more than beginners.
Now in this case I'm assuming the top 10% of players play up to 5 times (2nd top tier playing 4 times as much) as many games as the bottom 25% of players (big assumption on my part although conservative I suspect). I have also towned WAY back the escape rates on the upper end, yet I still end up with just over the 39% global escape rate they are reporting. If we had kept my first assumptions on the top tier escape rates that would require even worse escape rates for the bottom tiers to reach the 39% when weight for game frequency.
My ultimate point is that reporting a 39% escape rate is masking a huge issue in the lower 50% of survivors. Public data on the lower 50% of players is non existent outside our own records. High tier play stats is more accessible and wecan weigh in the smaller population size into the data.
Yes, my data is all hypothesis. I'm making a point that we need more data from BHVR because what they have provided is a extremely misleading and deceptive in attempt to mask a severe balance issue for a large percentage of the player base.
-
@Sheridan_LT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347038/39-escape-rate-is-a-lie
....If high MMR Survivors are getting much higher escape rates than lower and medium MMR Survivors, doesn't that mean this is a Survivor-sided game and that a 39% escape rate is actually pretty reasonable considering what it is at high MMR, and that 47% escape rate was NEVER considered low to begin with?
...What? Ideally, all mmr ranges should average 50% imo if the game was well balanced. However, I don't think that will ever occur. Realistically, the best you could probably ever hope for, even then remote, would be 40% to 60% survival rates for different mmrs. It might be survivor sided at high mmr, but that is the issue/point of this thread. BHVR won't post that data because it likely is very ugly. Imagine the uproar if BHVR posted that high MMR survivors had 70% and low mmr survivors got 15%? Killers would be ballistic along with survivors.
@sonata93 said:
I know this wasn't meant to be a solo-queue vs. SWF discussion, but I think that unfortunately it always boils down to that.
It's problematic for the game health/balance to be based on general statistics that group solo-queue and SWF together as 'survivors', without considering each of them are entirely different game experience's. If we exclude the tiny percentage of tournament-level SWF's, even casual SWF's have numerous competitive advantages: communication, coordination, and the fact they can all plan their perks/items before the match. In contrast, as a solo-queue player, you're going into a match completely blind with absolutely no idea about your teammates and their skill level, perks, etc. We can't underestimate the huge impact this can have on the outcome of the game, and equally, can make the difference between survivors getting escapes or killers getting kills. This is probably an unpopular opinion, but it's almost as if solo-queue and SWF need to be different game 'modes', as in there are changes to the game conditions.
This then skews MMR: I've been playing for 3 years and feel I'm a pretty decent/experienced survivor, however, if I have a few rough games and my MMR goes down, I then get stuck in this loop of getting matched with newbies and not being able to escape. This links into the OP's original point: in order to make meaningful and informative conclusions, we'd need to see the breakdown of escapes/kills based on MMR, and also, separate solo-queue/SWF.
If what BHVR posted is accurate, Solo vs SWF really doesn't matter much. Someone posted the BHVR quotes. The escape rate difference between SWF and solo at same mmr is within a couple percents. Now there is a lot that could be going on there to make those statistics lie as well, but not a topic I'm trying to explore here.
@crogers271 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347038/39-escape-rate-is-a-lie
I actually think there are two other points that back up your 39% is inaccurate claim
1: If a player disconnects early the game is tossed for data purposes (to my understanding). But if you play it out it still feels like you lost.
2: While disconnects are tossed, AFK killers probably aren't. Mercies probably aren't. So while there is a system in place to catch and throw out kills because of survivor behavior, I don't think there is one to do the same thing for killer (or put another way: the system tosses kills that happened because of something happening outside what the game intends, it doesn't have a mechanism to catch the same about escapes).\
-
I'm a relatively new player and am escaping maybe 50% of the time. But yeah, there was a period early where it was just non stop massacres.
-
On your chart, shouldn't the bottom 25% of killers get matched against the bottom 25% of players (or what ever the groupings are) - so maybe I'm not getting something but I don't see how that is a problem.
I suspect your first few games you were in the kiddie pool still. They usually group brand spanking new players (killers and survivors) before dropping them into the mmr pool. I don't know what the cut off is for this game.
The problem with the chart is an ELO mmr match making system gets long queue times if the mmr distributions don't match up forcing them to loosen match making criteria. If all the killers are lumped together at high mmr ratings, it can be hard to accurately judge weakest from mediocre killers. Most games there is just one pool (ie call of duty there is only 1 player type), but this has killer and survivor pools. So they have to pick from each, you want those curves to at least be similar shapes to match easily between.
@fulltonon said:
statistics is just numbers and has no real meaning, I doubt BHVR meant to convince anyone with that.
Statistics can have plenty of meaning. Modern medicine depends entirely on proving the effectiveness of treatments through statistical measurement for instance. Statistics are used throughout all of engineering. They can also be used to distort and lie. BHVR wouldn't have released this unless they were trying to appease people that everything is "fine".
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3195963#Comment_3195963
If they were balancing for the top, mediocre perks like Ruin and Dead Man's Switch wouldn't have been nerfed. Those are the types of changes for mid and low level play, because instead of playing around those perks, they complain about them til they get nerfed. And yet, those some people still lose to those perks.
I get that solo sucks because of matchmaking, but that's because of the matchmaking. That is no indication that the game isn't balanced for solo or that killer is OP. Fix the MMR system, and the rest will follow.
I haven't dug it up, but I remember BHVR posting showing Ruin was pretty dominate at all tiers of MMR. I don't recall DMS usage rate off top of my head.
Uhm, matchmaking isn't magic. It can't take unbalanced mechanics and make it balanced, unless you are ok whichever side is favored at high mmr having insanely long queue times. BHVR instead throws lower mmr players into the meat grinder to keep those high mmr players with someone to play against. IE: Imagine one side is far weaker than the other, mmr could balance for a while by matching pro players on weak side vs weak players on the strong side, but that is going to cause issues in the long term (see my graphic in the first post).
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347038/39-escape-rate-is-a-lie
I don't think 39% is a lie. I'm a mid level survivor and my most recent run from Ash to Iri showed 45% but that was after also running meme builds fun for about 2/3 of it. That's higher than but within the ballpark of 39%.
If you ran up to Iri 1 with meme builds, you are not mid level. You are at least good if not very good. I would expect 50-60% of the player base sees well under 35% escape rate and it is skewed high to 39% by pro players that play tons. I spent 300 games trying to push survivor to Iridescent 1 last season and never made it past gold 4, about 20% swf and 80% soloq. Before the 6.x patches I got Iridecsent 1 for 3 seasons in a row without much trouble.
-
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3191887#Comment_3191887
It's a well founded assumption. We know the devs are too stubborn to balance for high level alone, so they're using statistics created from all different skill levels, skewed results, so whatever 'conclusion' they think they've come up with us gonna be wrong every time. You don't focus on top level, you're not getting the full picture that is this game's balance.
Actually, I'm making the opposite argument. You say they aren't balancing around top mmr, I'm arguing they ARE balancing around top mmr at the detriment of the lower 50% of players. They had a good escape/kill ratio pre patch, EXCEPT at the top MMR where survivors escaped all the time. So they obliterated the top survivor perks AND gave killers all around buffs (gen times, kicks, attack speed). It helped move toward balance at top mmr, but those general killer buffs destroyed any balance at the low tiers.
@Digfish said:
I'm a fairly mid-low MMR solo-queue survivor. Tracking my own game stats on NiteLight, I've been seeing about a 40%-45% escape rate. That's for me personally and for my teammates. Pretty much lines up with BHVR's report.
I suspect you are not as low as you think. The games I am in are completely unwinnable regardless of how much you carry due to 1-3 teammates that literally contribute nothing. If you are above 40% escape rate for 20-30+ games, then you are a above average player beating the global average of 39% (which is artificially high due to high escape rates of top mmr players). Ball park I'd wager 40% would put you in top 30-40% of players.
-
Maybe not showing everyone like kindred, but some way to communicate/indicate whether anyone is moving toward or near for the unhook would help immensely. Perhaps hooked color changes according to distance to closest survivor or if no one is near 15 seconds after hook it shows survivor auras for few seconds. This is one of the biggest advantages of swf voice comms, calling out who is going for unhook and when they have to wave off due to a chase.
-
Make self care require repairing 50% of a gen between each use and make it heal at like 50-75%. That would encourage newbs to go work gens while injured (advanced tactic) and offer a reward after.
-
I don't think more communication would help. A lot of these low level newbs likely wouldn't respond well even if there was voice comms. After a few games of someone yelling at them to "get on gens and stop crouch walking while killer chases someone else" they would just mute voice comms rather than change behavior. Very few learn to play better in a stressful situation when they are clearly intimidated (hence the crouching and hiding so much).
The game has a steep and slow learning curve if you don't do homework outside the game watching tutorials and streamers on how you should be playing. The intuitive thing is to hide almost always and they don't understand the cues of when it is safe to come out (ie obsession being chased or someone else getting hit).
-
@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347038/39-escape-rate-is-a-lie
Interesting post, I'd be very eager to see the survival/kill rate spread based on mmr and swf/solo q. Average of 39% means that the lower end of players, (which is usually a large portion of the playerbase) are probably dying an inordinate amount pf the time.
Exactly, even better if we could see how this changed with the patch.
@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347038/39-escape-rate-is-a-lie
Once again dont go off the stats, they dont actually show any useful information as theres too many variables you dont see, a common one is a DC. While a DC is void the others are not meaning its stil a 1v1v1v1 (if you didnt know that's how behaviour treat escapes/kills, they use the 1v1v1v1v1v1 aspect). This means a killer is likely to get more kills and those survivors will die. Not to mention this rating includes all MMR brackets.
As for personal escape rates Im far higher than 39% escape rate as a solo Q. Would be even higher if some games wasnt a SBMM mess with randoms never doing a gen lol
This is false and self defeating. Common anti science argument. Something is complicated (to me), thus it is too hard for anyone to figure out. They likely have the ability to exclude all games that involved a dc, although that would be interesting to see as well. Your next argument would be suicide on hook which may or may not be easy for BHVR to rule out depending on how what data they store. Also, BHVR posted that after a dc the mmr impact to other survivors is greatly reduced.
That said, dcs and suicide on hooks have lately been about 1/4 or less of my games. Usually the game is clearly lost by that point (ie: 2-3 down at once and multiple hooks with 0 gens complete). Maybe 1 in 10 is someone quitting too early or even while winning. That's just out of my own collection of about 400 games I've logged since patch. It has gotten better than shortly after the big 6 patch. At the mmr level I play, Dead Hard and DS weren't big factors even before the patch (you can see that in BHVR's data), so most of these didn't notice that change. My theory is gen times has probably been the biggest factor. Low Mmr survivors just can't loop long enough so the killers keep finishing a chase and resuming gen pressure too fast to finish any.
-
So I like to lock both for efficiency and maybe that's wrong. Most times dredge is in a hurry when he comes out trying to jump a survivor. If he choose to break a lock instead of chasing me...great? Also, him breaking locks with m1 is only a little faster than when he warps to them (has to notice, stop, aim, animation). Him breaking them with m1 is about same time as survivor locking it, but there are 4 survivors so matching survivors action for action is a losing game for killers. That's why boons that get snuffed are still helpful to survivors for instance. Spend 14 seconds booning, killer takes 2 to snuff, but still has to locate it and walk over. Killer has to be 4 times more efficient. IE: hooking survivor takes two to three out, 1 hooked, 1 going to unhook, 1 being chased.
-
Each killer has it's own mmr and it jumps a lot while trying to place your killer at first. I'll get curb stomped first game then coast through next two before finding a happy spot.
That said if one of your killer mmrs gets high enough, your others start higher initially too. That said, killers are absolutely slaughtering survivors on the low mmr side atm, so if you are struggling you might just doing something wrong strategy wise or perhaps playing a harder killer. I'm pretty poor at killer and still get consistent 3-4ks on Legion, Wraith, Spirit, Huntress for instance. If I played them more eventually it would creep higher.
-
@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3188367#Comment_3188367
Definitely not that much. I don't have the exact numbers handy (and our MMR wizard is still off), but to give an idea, the distribution of players across MMR is a bell curve. Very few people are at the low end of the spectrum, most people are near the middle, and very few people are in the highest end as well. The soft cap will pull in some people who are already close, but not that many.
Can you escape the soft cap once entered? You talk about mmr should be self balancing, but I'm literally at 300+ loss deficit on survivor and nothing is changing. When am I going to start seeing wins again? My teammates keep becoming bigger potatoes while killers stay mediocre to pro. Does it think I'm throwing/smurfing and not letting my rating actually drop so I can get better matches?
-
@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347038/39-escape-rate-is-a-lie
"I don't doubt 39% is the actual mean of escape rate for all survivors from all matches globally."
If you don't doubt that, then why you write a wall of text arguing that not global stats matter.
The game gets updated with features, or balance changes based on global stats they don't make a separate patch constructed towards every player's skill level, every region's pickrate, and so on. The game patches are globally applied so ONLY global stats matter even if you love imagining every single scenario in the book.
I was acknowledging my Title is slightly clickbaity, but also with a gem of truth. Literally, the 39% is probably true, BUT what they are trying to say with it is not true. ALL survivors are not seeing 39%. Some high mmr survivors are seeing much higher than 39% while the rest of us are well below that.
You are acknowledging a game balance issue that hits every game, I'm not arguing that one way or another. However, I am arguing against BHVR balancing around the pro subset of top 10% of players and creating a miserable playing experience for everyone else. That does not endear a game to last. Game devs need to aim for a balanced experience for your middle 50-75% of players and it feels like that isn't being done and they released stats to try to deceive people about that problem.
@YubelTheWitch said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347038/39-escape-rate-is-a-lie
Honestly from my point of view i agree what they are saying is a lie, but is a lie also what are you saying, is already since the the new DLC of project W that i see "AN ABYSSAL" difference compared to the previous one, i don't wanna joke but "i think" my escape rate previously (more or less) was around 45% like every 12 games i escape atleast like 4-5 games...with this new chapter you know how many times i escaped "IN 70+ MATCHES?" ""LITTERALLY 11 (maybe 12-13)"" (and was only versus dredge, bubba, mayers and legion) which...i would say...they are enough weak...that's the reason...i don't know you bud but what you are saying is a lie aswell, the state of the game imho is a completelly slaughter...is litterally a nightmare play survivor
"STILL" there is a good things about all this story, i still got it iridescent 3 as survivor even after this clown killer fiesta that should be rivisited by the devs, i don't play at all SWF, i can understand that if you soloQ ofc has to be really hard to play "but not impossible"
Perhaps. I don't feel like they have changed anything as drastic and dramatic in the Project W to differentiate it from the massive 6.X changes, but individual experiences will vary. I personally went from 45-50% escape and kill rate pre patch to 15-20% escape rate with 75% on my killer win rate when they changed the perks and gen times and that has stayed consistent pre and post Project W. Project W just added a new killer and mostly irrelevant survivor perks (resilience sort of hinders face camping and hyper focus is a pro perk only).
@gemgames_86 said:
Where did you get the info of 39% escape rate.
Released by BHVR couple days ago: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/346830/stats-6-1-0-in-review
Few other stats in there are deceptive too, like not accounting for most common perk usage by what is available. It skews representation of certain perks not because its balanced but because the stronger perks are pay walled in some cases. However, not the focus on this thread.
-
Ok, this has got really off track. My point is NOT SWF vs SoloQ (although I am curious). My point IS low and mid mmr vs high mmr escape rates. There is no way low and mid tier are seeing 39% which tells me high tier is skewing the number and the truth for majority of survivors is ugly.
I'm concerned about the longevity and health of this game post update as a fairly new player myself (4 months now). If you expect new players to stick with a game when their win rate is 15-25% at the low mmr tier...that is unlikely and you need new players to sustain long term.
-
@HugTheHag said:
According to devs the escape rate variation for SWF and SoloQ is in the vast majority a matter of a couple of %. The highest mmr SWF will have an escape rate superior by 15 points of % at the very most.
So for the common of mortals, SWF and SoloQ does not make much of a difference.
That being said, I agree with the rest of your arguments.
(I'm getting big economic student vibes from this post and I'm loving it, as one myself)
Link to devs saying that? I don't doubt the difference between SWF and SoloQ is overstated or missing the actual causation. IE: Good players take the time to form SWF while poor and mediocre players don't. Poor players in SWF don't magically become pro. It would rule out a factor if they posted the %s. My issue more is High MMR SoloQ+SWF skewing the data heavily for everyone else.
Yes, I typoed in mspaint. Whoops.
Also, Engineer with Computer Science degree although college is long behind me.
@HugTheHag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3191887#Comment_3191887
Oh I didn't say all of the numbers were necessarily correct. I'm saying the effort is there to make it official looking, and assuming their numbers are correct (which they may not be), the following logic is sound.
Of course my data is suspect and incomplete. The whole point of the post is to ask BHVR to release more accurate data because what they released is deceptive lying with statistics. The issues I pointed out do not depend on my assumptions, they are a hypothesis at this point in need of research. It would be foolish to think the entire player base got 39% escape rate exactly.
-
Yes you do. Vast majority of players do not have random disconnects often enough to acure dc penalty. If you are consistently getting disconnects, it is something wrong with you or your isp. Visit the troubleshooting section for help. I've even posted lots of guides to identify the issue there.
-
@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3189770#Comment_3189770
It wouldn't make any sense for us to publish a blogpost telling you how you feel: You're already well aware of how you feel about it. That's why we read through hundreds of feedback posts from all across the internet to get a better understanding. This post is purely to give you some visibility on statistics that you normally do not have access to. It does not mean that X, Y, or Z number means you are having more fun.
A problem is you are using statistics in a deceptive way through omission. Statistics make great liars.
The omission is a break down by skill levels. You/BHVR happily used skill level break down in the lead up showing extreme perk variance at low, mid, and high tier mmr (ie dead hard dominating at high mmr). Now you are claiming things are sort of ok with 39% survivor escape rate, but that's averaged(?!) among all survivors. That's going to be biased heavily by those SWF survivor pros at high mmr who play tons of games that still escape 60-70% of the time while masking the slaughter happening at low mmr where escape rate is around 15-20%. People who lose constantly play less out of frustration typically, so survivorship bias also inflates those numbers toward SWF groups that win games.
Release escape/kill rate at different levels like you did with perk usage pre patch. Lots of people (self included) are keeping their statistics on this, and 39% would be a fairy tale dream. I'm very certain that survial rate is not consistent across levels meaning some of these changes have been extremely rough on certain player groups (like your newer and lower skilled tier).
-
There are many perks that are far worse than ruin atm. It still works well in killers that pressure lots of gens, but don't have time to spend kicking them (legion comes to mind).
-
To reach 24 hours is 9 dcs. So how many times did this bug hit you exactly? Probably not 9. Maybe don't bail so much and let your penalty time work itself back down to reasonable levels. Then random bugs will only be a 5 min bathroom break.
-
Dredge is weak against high mmr survivors with strong looping skills. Dredge is oppressively brutal to low and mid mmr survivors with weaker looping skills and lacking knowledge on how to move from one structure to another safely. Dredge nullifies distance and stealth which is relied on heavily by lower tier survivors while requiring little skill from the killer to counter. All those stealth survivor perks are basically nullified by his Darkness Revealed + teleport combo.
This is why some find Dredge brutal and others say "poo poo" he is weak or mid tier. Please don't balance a killer on how he fairs against the top 5% of survivor pros.
Full disclosure: My survival rate against dredge is around 5-10%...as in I can count them on one hand. I do love his theme as he is scary AF when he pops out of a locker by me.
-
@TotemSeeker91 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/346051/dc-penalty
If it happens once, then try again, but if it's doing it multiple times, then take the hint before you get a 72 hour penalty
To add to that. The game is not causing frequent random disconnects. That is an issue somewhere in your connection (that could include your isp depending on what country you are in), but most often is an issue somewhere in your home. Most players will see an unintentional disconnect for themselves maybe once a month or one every few hundred games. Are you playing on wifi 2.4ghz in a congested apartment building and you drop every time all the neighbors start streaming to their tablets/phones? Visit the troubleshooting forum and describe what steps you have taken.
TLDR The disconnect penalty is there to protect other players from you ruining their game.
-
@Zoozoo563 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3181612#Comment_3181612
Thanks for the advice. Most times its so far into the game it doesn't effect much except for his points. So I'll let him decide weather he tries to play or not.
That could actually be the most critical moment. People are the most invested by then. Maybe he's the last one that can unhook or he needs to open gate while another loops?
What has he done to troubleshoot the connection? Most people don't get regular disconnects. I've only had 1 in the last 300 games and I'm suspect of that being a hacker's involvement (was strange shenanigans someone was doing just prior).
-
I'm sorry he gets so many random disconnects that his penalty time is high. If it happens that often he really shouldn't play until he can fix the connection issue. He is ruining many games for all the other players as this game is not balanced around survivors dcing in first 3 mins. Not to mention all the items and offerings that just got wasted because the game is a near insta loss when that happens.
There are literally tens of thousands of other games you can play together. Lots of coop ones that handle players dropping in and out just fine. Don't try to play a competitive team game that depends on every player to stay in for 10-15 mins.
-
If you are getting disconnected often enough, even unintentionally, that the time gets too high you shouldn't be playing until you fix your connection. You are ruining many games for others every time you disconnect. You are complaining about your time lost due to dc penalty, but consider the time you wasted of the other 4 players in the game you just ruined.
-
Some of it is confirmed by BHVR in drips and drops. I believe there was an official post in the forum once mentioning hatch was a neutral event for mmr for survivor and killer. I've never heard about moris one way or other.
There are some hacker groups that seem to get some insight into the mmr mechanics, especially those guys running the cheating killer bots that are a plague at the upper mmr ranges. No clue how or if accurate, but they appear to have some information.
-
Depends where you are in the mmr. Most weskers starting at the bottom. If you are at the top they take a while to trickle up there or they get bored after a few games. The bottom mmr where the weskers are starting is 90% wesker killers. I'm confused when I get anyone but wesker. Out of 20+ games in a day I can count on one hand the number of non weskers.
-
@allMadhere said:
@Ciabe I can absolutely understand the sentiment of hiding it in order to prevent people from worrying about rank loss etc. - but I do not think that's why BHVR has chosen this current path. They still punish players by taking their pips away even though it has no bearing on rank or matchmaking. If BHVR cared about how players felt (losing status due to poor game choices / outcomes), then de-pip would not be a thing at all. Personally I think they hid their ranking system (while leaving the unnecessary pip system intact) so that people couldn't post / discuss / complain about the disparities in rank they would undoubtedly observe. Queue times are very fast, which I will not complain about, however it is clear that this is because the rank pool is widened instead.
Public statistics would be very nice to see. BHVR's lack of transparency has always been highly frustrating. Obviously the topic of "ranked vs casual" has been discussed to death for many years at this point - I'm not sure how BHVR would implement changes, or what it would mean for queue times and bloodpoint payouts. It's definitely not a discussion that's going to be solved or abandoned any time soon.
Yeah, I'm a very late arrival to the party, so I've missed a lot of the history and arguments in the past on casual vs ranked for dbd anyway.
I'm nearing 300 losses now, but I did snag 1 more win. I came up with a theory last night based on the data those hackers put out about the mmr ratings. I suspect once you cross 1600 you enter into the big pool for matchmaking that has everyone 1600+ including all the pros at 2200-2400. The catch in their system is I suspect once you enter the big pool, you can never leave it no matter how low you drop again to prevent smurfing. On top of that, It feels like they still group survivors with similar ratings as you (hence my crappy teammates), but they just take whatever killer has been waiting the longest no matter how high they are instead of letting a low rated killer get a match first.
Couple months ago I was playing regularly with some very good SWF that likely carried my poorly skilled self above 1600. In most of these mmr systems 1500 is your mid and starting point, your bell curve of players center around that with high around 2200 and low around 800. However, DbD supposedly starts players around 800. The issue is probably 40-50% of your player base will cross that 1600 rating mark at some point if the ratings still center their weight around 1500. Matching 40-50% of your players into one giant pool is a recipe for disaster. Which effectively means they are sacrificing their beginner to mid tier players on a silver platter for the top 10% to just slaughter in the name of quick queues for them.
I would really prefer if they could just disclose how it worked instead of forcing us to speculate. Feels like the blind men and an elephant problem.
-
@allMadhere said:
If BHVR trusted their SBMM system to be accurate and effective, then the ranking would be shown to us. If we can't see it, then we can't evaluate or (accurately) criticize it...
I actually understand why they don't post it. Lot of games don't like to share it anymore. People get overly stressed if they see the number go down (Loss Aversion) to the point they won't play out of fear of losing it. That's why some games have two pools, ranked and unranked. Both have mmr numbers behind them (Normally), but they only let you see it in the ranked one or see it through a mask (like levels). Since they decoupled the ranks in dbd from the mmr though, there is now no way to know at all your rating compared to someone else.
The fact they don't even have a statistics page makes it harder too. I remember back in the day Starcraft had a win/lose rating which they dropped visibility on because they didn't want people not playing out of fear of ruining their win/loss ratios.
@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/345401/low-survivor-mmr-not-working
I can tell you that MMR issues are time dependent. When I play in the afternoon/early evening in central Europe, everything is fine most times. But after about 10-11pm you can't play soloq anymore because your teammates just get worse every minute. Killer on the other hand is quite easy during these times, whereas it can be quite hard and sweaty during the evening.
2 Days ago i played Wesker at 1am and got 2 players with maybe 100hrs (I have 5k). And I played Wesker a LOT the past days and was quite successful too.
This has always baffled me. I notice it too. At night my survivor teammates become hilariously bad and my killer games are a breeze. I'm not sure what the cause is, there is still tens of thousands of players on which should be sufficient for a fair matchup without long queue time.