Predated
Predated
About
- Username
- Predated
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2156875#Comment_2156875
I mean you could say that Billy can get consistent 4ks without perks or add-ons but I'd argue most people couldn't do that some very good killer players could but they probably also do it with significantly weaker killers, bottom of the line is that if someone has more hours and practice then you they should win all the major content creators for dbd have thousands of hours in the game and as such should win the majority of their games even with handicaps.
I have a shitton of hours in the game aswell. I win the majority of my games aswell. Many, MANY killers cannot win games without perks and/or addons. Killers either rely on their addons, or on their perks. A killer with 0 perks and addons should have no chance against a team of survivors with 3 items and 16 meta perks. Yet, Nurse, Billy and Huntress did. Huntress later had a slight adjustment because lockers were made less common and forced her to spend time getting out of her way, so she started to need perks. Nurse got gutted to have only 2 blinks, so she started to need perks. Billy simply needed to follow that pattern.
Did they do it well? No. Can they improve him with the current setup? Definitely. That doesnt take away that Billy needed a nerf with upcoming changes. And I rather have a killer that's used in 60% of games for 4 full years be put on the shelf for a while as they make the game more enjoyable for the entire roster as a whole.
Billy needs to be looked at again, but there is a whole list of killers that are underperforming that need attention. Billy has had full attention for years. The day that Billy gets revisited is going to be a joyous day, we dont have to pressure the devs to fix a killer that only underperforms in high red ranks, when there is killers that barely perform well in green ranks.
-
@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2156921#Comment_2156921
If you face plenty of billies without addons then where are they now? Nothing has changed so surely they had no reason to quit playing him right?
You need to set up a survivor at a loop so you can get a curve hit.
The roar is grating to the ears and his sounds in general are just way to loud. why does he require a sound cue? give me a solid reason that survivors must know what a killer is doing at every single moment.
The maps have changed and many can't be played around as billy any more. There is more stuff littering the map to stop chainsaw sprints, the loops curve or have bits of junk that prevent curve chainsaws, leaving you to be a simple m1 killer for most of the match.
I watch someone on twitch who mains billy and he complains about this constantly
You didnt read, again. As I stated before. Either of the nerfs would have been okay, both at the same time would not.
"why does he require a sound cue? give me a solid reason that survivors must know what a killer is doing at every single moment."
Counterplay. Strong powers require good counterplay. If there is 0 information between going down and being healthy, there needs to be a cue of some form. In the case of NOED, the killer is visibly faster. In the case of Haunted Grounds, there is a notification. In case of Bubba, he screams too. In case of Huntress, she plays a lot more careful with her hatchets(which is why infantry belt+iri head was so ######### broken).
Just as a killer, you needed cue's for a DS being in the game, which you no longer need now. You need cue's for pallets being dropped across the map, you need cue's for skillchecks being missed. Or are you going to argue that they should turn it back to 2016? When you only heard missed skillchecks and rushed vaults and dropped pallets if you were close enough?
-
@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2126988#Comment_2126988
How is changing the requirement to 5 gens completed hard?
Because that means it cant work on the final survivor. A key working on the final survivor is fine. If there is 4 survivors with keys with 1 gen left, it would be fine.
Let alone that changing anything in this game can drastically affect completely unrelated things. Adding a 5 gen requirement could also mean that hooks no longer stay up as long as 5 gens are remaining. Or that survivors can open the exit gate when 5 survivors are hooked. Or that Devour Hope gains stacks for fixed gens(altho, I wouldnt be too against that).
-
@reeves7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2156875#Comment_2156875
A good survivor will sidestep,at red ranks billy was average without double engravings or instasaw. Bubba now can zone survivors way better than pre or post berf billy,so to say they nerfed billy due to zoning is an invalid information. You can’t even explain yourself why they nerfed him so we all agree here
Bubba doesnt zone survivors better than Billy did, Bubba has more locations to zone a survivor, but he cant do it infinitely. That's the difference. Infinite zoning vs better zoning.
As for Billy not being able to curve, that's more due to players no longer being able to adjust their mouse sensitivity and due to hitboxes on walls in general being more realistic.
As for sidestepping, no chance. You needed dead hard to sidestep a decent billy because he could do a 360 spin when he came out and still hit you.
And I explained myself plenty. I agree with either nerf. I dont agree with both nerfs being implemented at the same time.
-
I think they easily have the skill to do so, but they have not have any monetary reasons to dedicate work hours into that. I hope OTV will change that a bit.
-
@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2161973#Comment_2161973
That's not really how sexual representation works. Nurse is not confirmed to be straight, she's confirmed to have a heterosexual relationship.
Be honest: do you actually believe that? Because these arguments are never used except when LGBT representation comes up.
Ah, perhaps because those arguments only exist in a reference frame of character creations. From a writing perspective, its never good to solidify sexuality for the same reason that it's never good to solidify the sexuality of any human. How many people come out of the closet when they are 30? Sexuality is not something that's static. People can lose interest in certain traits, they can gain interest in other traits. That means that someone who is a total Chad with 95 girlfriends in highschool, while being disgusted by the thought of sharing a bed with another guy. While that same person could be a total Chad 20 years later with 95 boyfriends and be disgusted by the thought of sharing a bed with a girl.
So yes. As long as sexuality is not confirmed, you cannot use that as an argument. At best, you can complain about the amount of heterosexual relationships vs any other, but lets be real here, we only have what, 5 mentioned relationships in total? Statistically seen, them all being heterosexual relationships is completely fine. There's like a 90% chance of any relationship to be heterosexual(I mean, hyperbole, not accurate number as I am lazy to look up more accurate numbers). So lets say, I have a dice that has a 90% chance to roll a 6. Meaning if I rolled it 5 times in a row, there is 60% chance of you picking all 5 heterosexual relationships at full random. But, we're not dealing with a random cast. We're dealing with a selected cast which easily scews the number. Not only that, we're dealing with a cast from different era's. Era's where homosexual relationships were heavily looked down upon.
So yes, considering the low amount of (past) relationships that have been confirmed, I dont really see an issue with the current state of affairs. Heck, they have implied some people to have had other relationships or have implied interest in same-sex.
And that's not even including the fact that demisexual, pansexual, bisexual and a whole list that I cant be bothered with in listing here, that can still be portrayed to be a heterosexual relationship, even though neither of them are straight. Nor the fact that some of the characters are licensed and that their sexuality is bound to their license.
So all those things considered, yes, confirmation of sexuality matters if we're talking sexual representation.
-
@Northener1907 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2162224#Comment_2162224
S-Tier Spirit has S-Tier add-ons. So what?
And that makes Spirit so much worse as a killer in general. What's your point here? Do you want Old DS back? Survivors are all S tier characters, so why nerf DS? Same logic
-
@Callmehandsome said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2162155#Comment_2162155
So many things are wrong what you said. Good nurses and spirits don't need Coup de Graces. Majority of their perks will be just for tracking. Also lucky break timer didn't go down in PTB unless they have changed that.
"Good nurses and spirits don't need Coup de Graces."
Exactly, which is why Coup cannot be made stronger. Cus good spirits and nurses will have no reason to not run it. Or do you want old DS back? Good survivors dont need old DS. They rather rely on perks like Camaraderie.
"Also lucky break timer didn't go down while slugged in PTB unless they have changed that."
But it did prior to the PTB.
-
@Bard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2162224#Comment_2162224
By that argument you could justify making every Nurse add-on description read "-1 maximum blink charge" with no secondary effects.
A good base power doesn't justify bad add-ons.
Freddy even more so, because his base power isn't even THAT good, it's just boring and easy.
Oh, so by your argument, Lucky Break should last 180 seconds? No justification gutting it all the way back to 45 seconds, right?
-
@AhoyWolf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2162677#Comment_2162677
I'm sure that it didn't got changed from 30% back to 40%, from my sources it's still 30%.
And what are your sources? The dbd wiki? Because the DBD wiki doesnt update their numbers instantly. There are things from 5 patches ago that still remain on there. Heck, before I altered it, people added on the wiki that 4 vigil's stacked up to 80% reduction, even though 4 vigils stacked is closer to 40%.
-
@reeves7 said:
Thats good
They literally removed that from all other maps, so no, its not good.
-
Except that it got changed back to 40%. It got nerfed in the PTB from 40% to 30%. Then on release they changed it back from 30% to 40%.
Considering you have addons and perks that are very strong with quick map traversal, having 2 portals less is fine.
-
@justbecause said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2161395#Comment_2161395
Yes but no add on should be that powerful to mori you out in second out of game once one surv is out 3 others are screwed
I mean, to get regular Tombstone, you need to get a full survivor worth of stalk more, while being a 109% killer. Sure, you could theoretically kill all 4 survivors in one go, but Survivors can finish 4 gens in that same time.
Essentially, Tombstone Myers is trading hooks for instakilling and movementspeed reduction. Essentially, you become an even worse version of Myers, for the sake of killing people by hand.
Tombstone piece Myers, however, has little to no negative consequences. It's able to kill every single person in the match if you gather your stalk wisely.
Tombstone Piece needs a rework. Judith's Tombstone is fine.
-
@DbD_Enjoyer said:
Doesnt it only works once per match? If thats the case, idk why ppl would call it OP...
the 90 seconds was slightly OP for the reason that in theory, it means 4 survivors can be injured and silent(when running Iron Will) meaning all you can do as a killer is patrol gens and hope they dont fix gens together.
That's it. However, the weaknesses of Lucky Break:
- it continues counting down, whether you're healing or on the hook(but not if you're downed anymore). Meaning to get the most value out of it, you need to heal, a lot. You literally cannot do gens if you want to keep Lucky Break Value.
- You still hear footsteps and grass. If there is nothing to listen to, footsteps easily give away their location.
I think reducing the time to 80 seconds would have been fine. It already dropped the original 180 seconds to 90, and its not like Lucky Break with Dance With Me was OP before.
-
@tesla said:
Some changes that could make keys a little more balanced:
- Add an animation like opening chests
- Make animation of jumping longer, so it takes longer for multiple survivors to jump in, maybe adding a delay from one jump to another
- Trigger a loud noise notification to the killer (maybe with a distinct sound) when hatch begins to be opened
- Purple key can only open hatch to one survivor
- Decrease frequency of keys in the bloodweb and chests
This way they can keep the achievement "Where did they go?" and decrease the annoyance of constantly lose matches to keys or the stress of wondering if the survivors have a key and are tracking the hatch.
The frequency of keys in bloodwebs is already tiny. In fact, you're more likely to get an ebony mori on every single bloodweb, than 4 survivors are to be likely getting a key on their 4 seperate bloodwebs. So the frequency is fine
Chest rarity should be higher, agreed. BUT I feel like the chest in the basement should offer a higher tier of items in general due to it's location. Survivors being able to get a key from non-basement chests without running Plunderers should not be a thing.
Hatch animation shouldnt be added, using a key is already a rare occasion and the person holding the key should essentially have a free escape. Nor do I think multiple survivors jumping in is the issue, as survivors gathered together to make a hatch escape and if the killer is close enough he can close it before they escape.
Conceptually, the key isnt an issue, the real issue is that keys remain in the game when the person holding a key dies. If you kill the person with a key, the key should no longer remain in the match.
-
@Drixpy_Jayyy said:
I think its alright but im still disappointed in the freddy changes
The only disappointment I have, is that the devs did the thing again where they come up with 2 good ideas, and instead of choosing 1 of the 2(less traps OR less speed), they did both.
-
@OmegaXII said:
One thing I’m concern is Open Handed + Kindred.
Free killer aura in 32 meters from hooks is kind of broken, especially in small maps.
Lets be real, it’s very common for killers to be within that range while chasing another survivor. This just makes mindgame impossible until survivor is unhooked
You do realize that with the old open handed and kindred, you could have 48 meters, right? Let alone that it's not free. It requires 2 perk slots and a person being on the hook.
-
Ah yes, because an A tier killer needs S tier addons. Preferably, D tier killers need S tier addons where S tier killers need D tier addons. This is fine
-
@Altarf said:
For reference, Gearhead and Coup de Grace were deemed too strong, despite neither being particularly good. If Lucky Break's considered balanced enough to bring to live, then I have a feeling we're going to see a lot of Stridor spirits.
Seriously, though, why were Gearhead and Coup nerfed? They weren't too powerful or even very strong in their PTB states, and now literally nobody uses them. Ever.
Thing is, Lucky Break's timer goes down when survivors are on hook too, its not as strong as people think.
As for Gear Head, the reason Gear Head cannot be strong is because Pop and Ruin are strong. As for Coup, it's because of Spirit and Nurse. They are already strong killers that can guarantee hits.
It's not that the perks themselves were strong, it's because their combinations could be insane. Which is why Any Means Neccesary was 80 seconds at first, because IF 4 people ran it, that means 1 reset pallet every 20 seconds. Which is insanely powerful considering how long loops can be extended. They later ended up lowering the timer because killers tend to break strong pallets instantly, so getting use out of Any Means Neccesary was already extremely niche. However, Nurse and Spirit have not been altered, so Coup cannot be buffed. Pop and Ruin are still strong, so Gear Head cannot.
-
@Demogorgeouse said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2160034#Comment_2160034
Nurse is confirmed straight. No sexual representation is out da window.
That's not really how sexual representation works. Nurse is not confirmed to be straight, she's confirmed to have a heterosexual relationship.
So far, the devs have stated that people are free to implicate sexuality upon their characters as long as it fits their lore and as long as it is unconfirmed.
-
@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2156875#Comment_2156875
Pre nerf nobody used billy without the "unfair" addons. This is all you can remember him as looking at your post.
Post nerf billy is the same as pre nerf billy without addons only he can't set things up or do much thanks to the overheat and this is why nobody plays him.
Way to much effort for little payoff and requiring survivors to make massive mistakes. The animation, sound (roar and volume) and fov changes are the icing on the cake to making him miserable to play.
"Pre nerf nobody used billy without the "unfair" addons. This is all you can remember him as looking at your post."
Wrong, I've faced plenty of Billies. Plenty of Billies who didnt use any addons at all. Some not even using any perks. If they ran perks, it was always BBQ, Bamboozle, Enduring and Spirit Fury to negate his only weaknesses.
"Post nerf billy is the same as pre nerf billy without addons only he can't set things up or do much thanks to the overheat and this is why nobody plays him."
Which is mainly false, he can do most of those things still, he just no longer can traverse the map as quick. The issue is that once he gets close to overheating, there isnt much you can do other than eat through the overheat mechanic, which is boring, or wait for the overheat mechanic to dissipate, giving you very limited choices in either using his chainsaw to gain distance, or using his chainsaw to zone people. THAT is why no one plays him. It forces people to make very hard decisions. Billy was never about setting things up. He was always about covering the map quickly and being able to shorten chases massively by using perks to block windows and spam his ability to delete pallets very quickly. Considering pallets in general have been reduced, this instantly buffs old Billy as he no longer needs to deal with those pallets and only has to care about windows instead.
"The animation, sound (roar and volume) and fov changes are the icing on the cake to making him miserable to play."
The roar is fine. Bubba always had a similar roar and no one complained. Billy had an 0 sound cues to tell survivors the difference between a revving and a running Billy. So yeah, a sound cue was needed, and a roar fits him lore-wise. Perhaps the volume needs to lower a bit on the killer side as killers tend to already increase their volume to hear people breathing and footsteps, which the roar is meant to make more difficult to hear, but it shouldnt deafen the players. The FOV makes him miserable to play. The animations are fine.
"Way to much effort for little payoff and requiring survivors to make massive mistakes."
Which is actually false, as you said, post nerf billy is the same as pre nerf billy. So there is no change in effort. The only change is that the timeframe of using his chainsaw has been massively reduced, with no way to take any advantage if you exceed that timeframe. While Bubba also no longer can infinitely rev, but he has addons that take advantage of him exceeding the timeframe. The only bonus Billy gets is that instead of 30 seconds, it will take 15 seconds to go back to 0 charges. In those 15 seconds of overheating, Billy should gain something he can use other than just being a regular m1 killer instead, at the very least addons that give him something he can actually use.
-
@onemind said:
Limitations
1 you cannot remove a part of their power completely
2 you can't only change addons/addon pass
I've been playing Myers a lot the past few months to the point where I've ended up quitting him because map reworks have done him very dirty.
So lets see the list of changes I would make:
- The stalk movementspeed addons need a buff.
- He should be able to stalk multiple survivors at once.
- Distance should have less effect on his stalk rates.
- You shouldnt be able to walk through him.
- His footsteps need to be softer when in T1.
- His T1 addon needs an increase in movementspeed.
- His T2 addon should not slow him down(he still has a red stain and you can read his aura, especially with the new OoO)
- His purple instakill addon needs to be removed, it should be only his pink one, instead, the Tombstone Piece should increase the range of his lunge(essentially his t2 lunge being roughly equal to his t3 lunge, while his t3 lunge would be equal to a coup lunge, which sounds insane, sure, but considering Spirit can run NOED, I dont think its too insane).
- His needs addons affecting vault speed(I mean, he is the one killer that has a basekit quicker vault)
- His brown addons need to actually do something, rather than being worthless versions of yellow addons and an addon that should enable a (shorter) lunge while in T1, meaning he could actually use a perk like Coup while in t1.
- The reflective fragments should work similar to Oni's Bloody Glove, cumulative rather than flat.
- If a survivor with stalk points dies, their remaining stalkpoints should be divided evenly over remaining survivors.
- In the case that point 12, 2 and 3 make it potentially too powerful, the stalk requirements across the board for unlocking longer T3 or the pink instakill can be upped a bit(tbh, I think it's quite fair if both pink addons in this scenario would require the full 40 points rather than only 30 points, as he can reach it much faster while stalking multiple people, meaning each pink addon would add 15 points instead of 10 points each).
- Addons that actually increase the available Evil in the game. Regardless of the logic here, Myers is still an M1 killer, and we have killers with similar mobility(Bubba) that always have access to an instadown. Or killers with a similar ability of bodyblocking a survivor and instadowning them because of their ability(Huntress with Iri head, Oni, Plague, Trapper, Billy, Bubba, Oni, Ghostface, Twins(yes, Twins can bodyblock with her main body, then swap to victor to injure, while keeping a bodyblock and downing them after)). Or killers that can bodyblock survivors and easily catch up to survivors(Clown, Deathslinger, PH, Blight, Spirit, Nurse, Wraith, Huntress without Iri head, Hag, Freddy, Doctor). So I dont see how any addons improving Myers' existing basekit essentially broken. At best, he could be like Clown where he is insanely good in 1v1's, but isnt that good in map pressure.
-
@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2156295#Comment_2156295
i mean he definitely got overnerfed no matter how you approach it whether it was slight or major. The general consensus is he's pretty bad right now and useless compared to the other choicea. All he needed was really a addon pass.
Just like Bubba got overbuffed.
And I disagree, Billy needed a punishment on zoning survivors. His movementspeed reduction was practically non-existant and he didnt need any perks or addons to get consistent 4k's in red ranks. So yes, Billy needed a nerf in his basekit too.
So what did they do wrong? A lack of variable addons. There are 2 addons that are linked to overheating, and the only good one of those 2 is a brown addon that increases the cap by 20%.
So what would I alter?
- Big Buckle instead of reducing the TR by 8 meter while overheating, making Billy undetectable(he already has 2 addons making him undetectable WITH his power, so why not without his power?)
- Black Grease, instead of it's very weird and niche use right now, instead add 5 or 10% movement speed while overheating(which would go nicely with the above Big Buckle AND current Tuned Carburettor)
- A brown addon to actually speed up the normal heat dissipation in exchange of slowing down the dissipation massively while overheating(which would improve his basekit AND gives him more use out of the above Buckle and Grease, but would be severely punishing if used improperly).
Essentially, giving Billy a playstyle that can only work if he Overheats, adding an extra layer onto Billy that he now so desperately needs. Old Billy was kinda boring, as there wasnt much mindgaming to do with him. You either reached a window in time, or you were downed. You either dropped a pallet in time, or you were downed. Right now, giving Billy players to 99 their overheat mechanic and actually give them a beneficial situation(being undetectable AND being 120/125% MS for 15 seconds is enough to hit a survivor before they can drop a pallet and gives you enough speed to close the gap before they can reach the next tile, let alone that STBFL would actually do wonders in this situation).
Essentially, I agree with the reasons of his nerf and also agree with the concept of current Billy. I dont agree with the endresult. They need to fix his cam, and give him more variety in addons to make him fun to play again.
-
@IOIOO said:
Straight to the article and yes its about face camping, and don't you tell me that face camping has multiple counter plays and I am just "bad", Ill tell you what, I probably have more hours then any of you. Once killers get 1 kill then a 3 v 1 is already hard enough.
Some of you are gonna say "then gen rush". Scenario: a face camped survivor can buy times of 3 generator. Then its 3 survivors vs 1 killer, and then the killer choose the weakest survivor to chase and down him immediately, proceeds to face camp, then you and your teammates are doing gens. The killer knows no one is coming then comes to you and when your teammate knows he will be going for the save. Now the killer goes back to the hook and get a double down. You are the last survivor and your injured, gg.
"Its simple, make camping bannable", said by a pig main.
I mean, mathematically seen:
If you're with a team, you have 120 seconds to fix gens, which is already post-chasing. Meaning that most of the time, at least 1 generator is about to be finished(if not multiple generators having progression).
It takes 3 survivors 80 seconds to do 3 gens. Leaving you 40 seconds remaining, which is enough time to finish 1 more gen with 3 people. You have free reign in this scenario, so you can break 3 gens near instantly, making it impossible for the killer to do anything about it. That's 4 gens gone for 1 survivor. 3 survivors with 1 gen left can use a key, or they can split pressure over the already survivor 3 gen to guarantee the final generator being finished.
And that is assuming survivors started working on generators once the first survivor got hooked. Which is rarely the case. Most commonly, 1 generator is being worked on by 2 survivors. Meaning that generator is very likely to finish before a survivor hooks, and in the average match, its very likely that 2 gens get fixed in that same time. Meaning that you have 120 seconds left to do 3.5 generators on average with 3 survivors. Which is enough time to finish gens and go for a suicidal hook bomb with BT.
The biggest issue here, is that survivors are not able to ping. They cannot communicate that they are being camped. If (solo) survivors had access to a ping system where they somehow could communicate if they spot a totem, if they are in chase, if they are being camped or if they almost finished a gen. Which would raise solo survivors very close to SWF in terms of communication, then the devs can buff killers accordingly. Because the solo survivor experience is the biggest reason why killers that dont seem to need a nerf because of SWF, still get nerfs because of solo survivors.
-
@QwQw said:
Dbd is Swf-sided. Not survivor sided.
Even with SWF, its only SWF sided if they decide to split up and do 3 gens at the same time from the beginning. Otherwise killers tend to be able to deal with it.
Yet you still have people saying base genregression is fine because Ruin and Pop exist. Which is technically true, but that's like saying slugging is fine because Unbreakable and WGLF exist. It's not. Being forced to rely on very specific perks to fix a vanilla mechanic is terrible design.
-
@musstang62 said:
Solo is a mixed bag. Some games are pretty fun. Some games you get hard tunneled out of existence because a fellow survivor unhooks without BT and immediately activates their stealth camouflage. Other games, you don't make it a foot away from the hook because you got farmed without BT. Other games, you run the killer for 5 minutes, then as you go down, you see the 3 yellow auras of your teammates hiding behind a bush in the corner of the map
If you're seeing the pattern, usually solo isn't miserable because of the killer. It's usually miserable because of the teammates. I'd love for SWF/Solo/Killer to be balanced equally, and I do think SWF is currently a bit busted, but I do also understand why people would want to play SWF when solo can be a bit maddening
It's essentially both ways tho. Solo is either miserable because of the killer being a pussy and rushing out 1 person ASAP because there is no DS, or your survivor teammates being pussies and hiding as soon as the killer gets close, even though they have been hooked 0 times and everyone else is dead on hook(for those ######### actively doing this: it's better for 1 survivor to be on the hook with 3 survivors being alive and running around than having 3 survivors running around and 1 survivor being dead. Survivor on the hook=killer has to keep track of their status. Survivor dead=killer no longer has to care about a player).
-
BHVR should add more customization to custom games anyway. Right now, the only customisation you have is
- Allow all paid KILLERS or not(so you're left with only 5 killers, yet all survivors remain free to select).
- Allow all perks or disable all
- Allow all maps or force 1 map
- Allow all items AND addons, or disable all items AND addons(you cannot even disable items and addons seperately)
- Allow all offerings or disable all of them.
That's it. That is all the "customizability" you have in custom games. What they instead should do is:
- Be able to disable specific characters(for example, Ace because of his silence, Spirit because Spirit)
- Be able to disable specific perks(no reason to be running toxic perks when playing with friends OR allow tournament settings to disable certain perks like Prove Thyself).
- Be able to disable multiple specific maps.
- Be able to disable specific items and addons(iri head isnt fun in customs, nor are keys, but the host could decide)
- Be able to select which offerings can and cannot be used.
Which is the very least a custom game should have. Then, if they want to get more spicy with custom games:
- Be able to adjust specific numbers, for example, increasing the amount of stacks you can get on STBFL, reduce or increase the time it takes to do gens or totems. Increase/decrease base values. This both allows players to come up with proof of concept for showing the effect that a slight change of numbers can do(an example in my case would be testing out what happens to Myers if you increase the speed of his stalk movementspeed addons), while also keeping the game fun to play with friends even if there is a dire update that ruins the fun in online matches.
- Being able to adjust the amount of players on either side. Which on its own gives DBD content creators reasons to play together, let alone allows newer content creators(OTV for example), to have more people streaming the same game, drawing more attention to DBD as a game as a whole(and thus more pressure for the game to have balanced gameplay, which, again, is easier to do if players can adjust numbers in custom games and give feedback to the devs).
- Being able to let the spectator(s) go into freecam(again, both for tournament reasons and to give content creators more freedom for cinematics, which can be done only with modded DBD)
- Being able to lock or unlock survivors from spectating post death and who they are able to spectate post death(tournament reasons mainly).
- Last, but probably not least, being able to swap the killers main power. Which already exists in the game and leads to a lot of weird, but funny #########.
Essentially, give players a reason to keep on playing the game through custom games if online gameplay gets too stale.
Heck, I wouldnt mind a seperate launcher for custom games if it would screw too much with the normal game. It would make sense that with the way DBD is made that any adjustments in custom games could somehow interfere with the real game, so having a seperate launcher that's like the PTB for this kind of custom game would 100% be worth the efforts.
-
@Kebek said:
He's got a lot of control over the chase which survivros don't like. You can't have any 100% foolproof way to counter him, you have to read him which extremely hard vs good slinger so many survivors just dismiss it as a random guessing when it's far more then that.
I generally love facing all strong active chase killers, be it slinger, huntress, nurse, spirit, PH etc. All of those you need to read and can't just rely on visual looping keeping you completely safe unless you get greedy or out of position.
It is essentially random guessing tho. Just like how Pig's traps are virtually RNG, even though it really is not(if it was, the average trap removal should be 2.5, but its lower than that due to the key being guaranteed in one, you dont have a 25% chance of removal each try, you either have 100% or 0%).
As for "reading" a deathslinger shot, you can at best read the area he can flick to, which can literally be a 360 no scope. So yes, you dont dodge deathslinger, he misses. If deathslinger doesnt hit you, he either failed his aim, or he didnt read you properly. The only way to "dodge" a deathslinger is pretending to be in his head which is guessing which move you would make next which is something survivors need to do anyway. Except that in the normal scenario, you only have to do that kind of decision within M1 range, against Nurse, you have at least the time it takes to charge the blink to move(which would be fine if Nurse only had 1 charge in chase, and 2-3 charges out of chase), but deathslinger? That 2 meter radius normally in which the killer doesnt see you in 0.3 meters, is increased to 9 meters, in that 9 meter range, its practically impossible to dodge deathslinger if he instantly shoots at the center of your hitbox unless you have Dead Hard.
Spirit, Nurse and Deathslinger have a large area where its 100% impossible to counter them. They make the mistake, you dont make the play. Nothing you can do as a survivor. Even with Huntress, who has a larger area of dealing damage, can be played(I mean, not with the new hatchet speed addons, which is probably going to be meta). I'm fine with the 2 meter radius around the killer essentially being impossible to dodge unless you somehow confuse the killer with a hail mary(which isnt really a play, its literally ignoring everything and just going for the highest risk move) or have dead hard.
Using hail mary's as an excuse to claim a killer is fine(hail mary's are the only "counterplay" against nurses, deathslingers and spirits at a large range), is like saying BNP commodius toolboxes with Prove Thyself can easily be counterplayed by just running Pop and getting a down within 20 seconds. It's simply not counterplay, its a rare scenario that might help out at best, but rare scenario's are not counterplay.
-
@IWasLeft2Die said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2140922#Comment_2140922
Id love to know where you got those numbers since the average is 2k for the best killers besides freddy according to the Devs themselves (and Freddy is getting nerfed now anyways)
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/200114/kill-rate-pick-rate-charts This chart has been relatively similar over the past few years, in red ranks alone the kill rates are even higher(especially on PC, where Nurse actually has a 85% killrate).
-
@BananaBlooD95 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2141340#Comment_2141340
It's because of latency. On the survivor end they started the animation of vaulting before getting hit by the shock.
That same logic should apply to grabs. On the killer end, they started the animation before survivors can run away
-
@Kirkylad said:
I'm a huntress main and I don't use the iri head and infantry belt combo because I think it's to overpowered. I myn't try iri head now with the other new iri add on, may be a fun combo to switch up play styles every now and again, may even make STBFL viable on her.
I love running iri head with deerstalker gloves and iron maiden, its a 1 shot forced reload build.
-
@whammigobambam said:
Base doctor no perks F tier
Discipline range add on with some good exposure perks. S tier
The perks are a situation that is creeping. Not the killers.
I mean, that really depends on the doctor tho, I've played doc no perks no addons on rank 1 and he still plays better on average than myers with full perks and addons
-
Most chapters on release have been questionable purely due to the devs wanting to release it to get console statistics. Even though in most cases, there is enough feedback to already fix/start fixing 95% of the issues.
Heck, even Descent Beyond and Silent Hill were quite bad on release. Descent Beyond might have been amazing for killers, but old Undying was too powerful, it could carry green rank killers to a point where they could face the average red ranks. Which is terrible overall.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2134380#Comment_2134380
One point I am going to address because it's a pet peeve of mine: Killers statistically overperform at red rank. They do not need to run meta builds and sweat with Nurse or Spirit to have a chance. With rank-based matchmaking, kill rates have been ~70% for years now at red rank. Averaging nearly a 3k in a world where the hatch always opens for the last survivor makes it clear that killer is performing extremely well. Maybe there are unicorn SWF hit squads out there that regularly dominate even the best killers, but if they exist they are necessarily extremely rare compared to red rank players. As a result, killer does not need more net buffs so long as DBD uses rank-based matchmaking.
With skill-based matchmaking, this might change at the highest slices of skill. If those unbeatable SWF hit squads truly dominate the best killers in the world, this will prove it, and if changes need to be made at that point to adjust the balance in high-skill matches I'm sure the devs will tweak things. Until MMR is running and performing well, though, if you're a red rank killer, you should be performing well. If you're not, it's not regression's fault. It's not the game's fault. You're probably just not as good as the average red rank killer. If you're not performing well and want to get better, look at your own play or even ask people on the forum. If you are already performing well and you're aware that killer overperforms at high rank with rank-based matchmaking, stop asking for buffs.
---
If you're not willing to reevaluate your positions, you're not going to get better at the game, and it's also not worth my time to reply further. The fact that you can't even accept that giving up distance for free in a chase will tend to reduce the length of the chase, while simultaneously making the same argument when you say that regression needs to be stronger to compensate because killers are losing too much distance and therefore time when they decide to kick a gen mid-chase, is Exhibit A that you're just here to disagree.
By all means, keep kicking those gens when you shouldn't, keep asking for nerfs to bail out your unwillingness to improve your play, and keep assuming that you know more than other people about playing killer. You're only hurting yourself.
"Killers statistically overperform at red rank. They do not need to run meta builds and sweat with Nurse or Spirit to have a chance. With rank-based matchmaking, kill rates have been ~70% for years now at red rank. Averaging nearly a 3k in a world where the hatch always opens for the last survivor makes it clear that killer is performing extremely well."
Killers statistically overperform due to the following reasons:
Red rank survivor mains are objectively worse at the game overall than red rank killer mains. Killers have an easier time picking up survivor gameplay and are practically guaranteed to be red rank survivors, where survivors need to learn a lot of things before they can touch red rank killer.
Once 1 survivor is dead relatively early on, its easy to snowball the rest.
Once killers have slugged more than 1 person in a short amount of time and see a 3rd injured person, they can very easily decide to slug for a 4k and win that game. Let alone that they would be forced to slug to achieve this, to stop gens from progressing. Slugging is not the solution to genspeeds.
Sometimes you get your 4k with only 5 total hooks, because you were only able to hook 1 survivor early game, with 3 generators popping, then the rest of the team not healing up and just pushing gens, triggering NOED which can easily lead to a 3k.
Because the end results are similar, does not mean the killer performed well.
Killers can snowball extremely hard in a singular moment, regardless of their overall performance. Survivors do not really have resources to combat it.
So while I agree that on average the game is fine, that doesnt mean it actually is. Because it's purely done through people playing nice, not rushing gens all the time, killers not rushing kills. I mean, do you think Nurse is easy to defeat? Statistically, she only gets a 2k on average, so Nurse is a terrible killer, right? Or not even this game, did you know that hate crime is a minority group in race based crimes, which is a minority in direct assault, which is a massive minority in crime overall. Does that mean it's fine because hate crime is statistically negligable? THIS is why statistics dont really say too much. It's at best an indication, but it needs context.
"With skill-based matchmaking, this might change at the highest slices of skill. If those unbeatable SWF hit squads truly dominate the best killers in the world, this will prove it, and if changes need to be made at that point to adjust the balance in high-skill matches I'm sure the devs will tweak things."
MMR would only prove my point further. This is general knowledge amongst players who have decent gameknowledge. I have enough experience and am not biased to my own skill. I know when I made a mistake, I know when my opponent made a mistake, I recognise when my opponent got lucky or when they calculated it prior to it. You have no clue how often I have faced killers who only won due to rushing a kill, you have no clue how often I have faced survivors who won due to rushing gens, regardless if they played well simply because the killer I played lacked the ability to finish chases and doesnt really have much power in slowing down gens(Myers has this a lot, especially because there is a limited amount of times you can instadown, even though you have killers like Bubba that are faster, equally mobile AND has a basekit instadown always available). You dont need MMR to prove the point, when players who play both sides already notice things they can and cannot improve upon. I have played games as killer that were so against my favor that even if I played absolutely perfectly, I wouldnt be able to win, let alone get more than 1 kill. The only vanilla mechanic I would have was rushing a kill, which was disabled due to old DS. I have also played games that were so much in my favor, that I could hook everyone once, then everyone a second time, before survivors could finish 3 generators simply because there were no usable tiles(the only reason making your position that "genregression is fine because of statistics" semi-valid, FYI, if there are no tiles to loop, gens cannot go fast enough, this is why The Game is extremely killer sided once all the pallets are gone)
--
"If you're not willing to reevaluate your positions, you're not going to get better at the game""
Except that I have been re-evaluating my positions, a LOT. You simply seem to be ignorant about the base mechanics and point to statistics to prove your own point.
"The fact that you can't even accept that giving up distance for free in a chase will tend to reduce the length of the chase"
I do accept that it technically reduces the length of a chase, but YOU do not accept that sometimes less distance can lead into more distance. The perfect example: chase being reduced even by 4 meters can make the difference between 1 pallet loop giving you a down and the survivor dead harding to the pallet to drop it and extend the chase by another 20 seconds. Let alone the fact that decision making changes a lot based on distance, one point you might need to make a hard left and encounter a lucky pallet, extending the chase and otherwise you'll probably hold w and try to go for the tile in front of you. Giving up distance does not equal reducing the length of a chase. Random hail mary decisions will often lead to longer chases.
"while simultaneously making the same argument when you say that regression needs to be stronger to compensate because killers are losing too much distance and therefore time when they decide to kick a gen mid-chase"
You do not understand the point here. We're talking a base genregression of 300 seconds for a generator to fully regress to zero, that can be stopped from any regression at all by tapping it mid chase while having minimal punishment. Do you know how long it takes to end a chase? Like, total time. Not just the moment the chase starts, because then it tends to last 30 seconds on average, I mean the time it takes for the killer to find a survivor, the time it takes to going from downing 1 survivor, to hooking them, to starting a chase with another survivor. Even with perks like BBQ, it can take up to 90 seconds to start another chase, and that is a perk that lets you know WHERE a survivor is. If you dont run BBQ, it can take much longer. You know what 2 survivors can do in those 90 seconds? Unhook their teammate and finish 2,5 generators. The only reason we dont see this more often, is because there is no way to communicate between solo survivors and SWF's are more likely to want to have fun. So games are already slowed down because survivors prefer to go for fun more than sweat it out, it's not a secret that the average red rank killermain is a better overal player than the average red rank survivormain(with mixed players tending to be better than both). So we have a player at higher skill consistently playing against players of lower skill(which, again, nudges statistics towards killers overperforming). If killers want to play fair against survivors, they would be throwing their own game at the current state of the meta. Too often do you hear "I am playing too nice" on killers who have hooked everyone once when only 2 generators are gone, even though chases are quick and hooks are consistent. But it should be fine if generator regression was fine, right? Survivors are at 3/7th of their objective while you are at 1/3rd, not that big of a gap, right? Except that survivors only have 3 gens to care about, while the killer still has 4 survivors to care about. General rule of thumb is that at least 1 survivor has to be dead on hook with 3 gens left, and 1 survivor must be dead with 2 gens left. With 4 people on their first hook, who is going to die? Genregression is not fast enough here to keep the killer playing fair. This is why Pop and Ruin are perks that are consistently ran together, 2 perks dedicated to generator regression, not because they want to, because they feel they need to. Survivors do not have a single perk they need to equip to win a game against killers of equal skill, yet killers do need Pop and/or Ruin to achieve the same. 2 perks that are designed with gen regression in mind. That's like survivors running Dead Hard and Lithe to make sure they get away from a killer.
Not even including the fact that there is no way to speed up hooks without the aid of survivors, while survivors can slap on toolboxes and perks to speed up their own objective. And yet here you are, still arguing base gen regression is fine. If base gen regression was fine, killers wouldnt feel the need to run Ruin or Pop and rather go for perks like Madgrit, Iron Maiden, Dying Light or Sloppy. You rarely see those perks at all and they are considered filler perks for most killers. Remove Ruin and Pop from the equation, and suddenly the "overperformance" disappears.
"By all means, keep kicking those gens when you shouldn't, keep asking for nerfs to bail out your unwillingness to improve your play, and keep assuming that you know more than other people about playing killer. You're only hurting yourself."
You are actually illiterate, arent you? The comparison I made was a survivor touching a gen mid chase vs a killer touching a gen mid chase. The survivor only "loses" 2 meters with teammates touching other gens, while the killer would lose 8 meters without other killers chasing other survivors away. Meaning that with the survivor gentapping, you completely stop regression for a price that's so significantly small that it might aswell not exist. If kicking a generator mid-chase is unviable, then so should gentapping be unviable. Dont go for a double standard. Gens already take 5 full minutes to regress and in that same time you can finish 4 other generators. While for a killer to kick ANY generator, be it in or out of a chase, would also lead in at least 2 generators gaining 5% more charges than if the killer fully ignored that generator, which can be up to 30% if people brought toolboxes and Prove Thyself. The only counterplay then? Tunneling a survivor out. You cannot reliably kick any generator without risking another one, so the other option is to kill a survivor early to slow the game down.
Do you want tunneling to remain meta? I sure dont. But it is needed, BECAUSE BASE GEN REGRESSION IS TOO SLOW.
-
@brokedownpalace said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2134176#Comment_2134176
I agree with a lot of what you said so you may be right. I think the most likely change to keys will be that they take some time to unlock the hatch, maybe an amount of time that can be increased with add ons. This would make them less powerful if found in chests, which is what a lot of people have a problem with.
I also think the devs are concerned about people burning through their keys if they know a change is coming three weeks after the PTB drops. So they may have taken longer to change keys because they wanted to be really sure about the changes before releasing them. Then, if they feel the change is not enough or too much, they can adjust it in the following week or two. Basically I think they'd have plans B and C ready if they're not happy with plan A.
There is really no reason to be afraid of survivors burning their keys tho. You can simply dodge lobbies if you dont want a key. Keys are not that hard to spot. Back in 2016, now that is when keys were hard to spot.
And I doubt they have a plan b or c ready. I think keys need to be released in the anniversary ptb for testing.
I just hope they buff mah boi green key to the point of having better aura reading than the skeleton key.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2132602#Comment_2132602
Where is that 15% number coming from? That's 15 seconds of wasted repair time from a 2 second kick, which is a great return on investment in most cases, not a bar to clear before kicking becomes viable. It also makes no sense to count time the gen is sitting there regressing as "killer time" that's being wasted. Without kick-based perks, most of the value of kicking a gen as a killer comes from the passive regression. As in, you have the potential to waste a lot of survivor time without investing much time yourself.
There is no point in comparing distance lost from tapping a gen mid-chase with kicking a gen mid-chase. As I said in my last comment, you should almost never be kicking a gen mid-chase. Doesn't matter if that gen is at 90%. If you kick that gen and lose at least ~10 meters of distance on the survivor you're almost certainly giving up more time and pressure than you're going to save with that kick. You don't need to "punish" tapping by kicking the gen again. Punish them by quickly downing and hooking them so they're incapacitated, forcing a teammate off gens to come for the save, and chasing a third survivor off of their gen.
It doesn't matter if you're able to complete the tapping action itself in .1 seconds. You almost always have to deviate your path at least a bit, and therefore lose time/distance, to tap a gen. It's not as simple as standing next to the gen and seeing how fast you can hold and release M1. .5 seconds was meant as a reasonable estimate.
You can't reasonably argue that giving up distance in a chase for nothing doesn't result in a shorter chases, so I don't think that point is worth addressing.
It is 8 meters, not 13 meters. 8 meters just takes ~13 seconds to make up.
It is entirely relevant that survivors do not get passive progress from tapping a gen. As I have already said, the reason that killers need to take time to break a gen is because of the potential passive time gain. Survivors cannot walk up to a gen, tap it, and be rewarded with passive time gain. Tapping a gen is just countering a killer action that passively gives the killer value. If survivors hypothetically had an option to complete an action to make gens passively gain progress I would 100% agree with you that it should require a substantial time investment. Tapping gens is not that. This feels like playing AoE2, charging a few light cavalry into a ball of pikemen, and complaining that pikeman shouldn't be so cheap and comparatively quick to produce instead of realizing that you're not using the light cavalry correctly.
Making gens specifically harder to tap while you're in a chase needlessly adds complexity to the game and it might not even work as well as you'd think. Plenty of killers will regularly break chase just because of how their power works. The game thinks that the chase is over, but actually Nurse is just on fatigue and waiting for her blinks to charge again, for example. Survivors could just cheese this to tap gens regardless, so between this and just being able to tap gens as normal when you're actually out of chase, you're left with a mechanic that feels extremely inconsistent for both sides.
The killer is not supposed to be able to counter all gen progress with base regression. It is intentionally slow and counterable so that survivors are actually able to complete their objectives. There is an absolute gulf between "base regression is strong enough to keep up with gen tapping" and "the killer has effectively no chance of regressing any generator", and it's not like a three-gen flips a switch between one and the other either. In a three-gen, unless you have strong kick-based perks or you've already killed a couple surivors (so the tracking element is useful and you're also more likely to get mileage out of the regression), kicking usually isn't a good idea. If survivors know what they're doing they'll be pressuring multiple gens simultaneously, so any kicks will be countered shortly after you switch the gen you're pressuring. The best option is, as usual, not to kick and to prioritize dealing damage. You might not be able to get downs easily in a three-gen, but injuring a survivor at least forces them to run away to heal or makes them vulnerable on the gen. Kicking just wastes your time.
To address the BT comparison, killers are never forced to kick gens and in fact usually shouldn't be kicking them. If a survivor is tapping a gen in front of the killer and that gen has not been regressing for a while, the killer should not have kicked that gen in the first place. Meanwhile, if a survivor is saving right in front of a killer, maybe they're just farming WGLF stacks with BT or something, but they're usually just doing what they have to do because the killer is camping the hook. The situations are nothing alike. If we're just comparing any two things that relate to survivor and killer objectives we're going to be at it for a while. Also, just don't swing right away if you find people are baiting swings by tapping the person on the hook. It takes a second to unhook a teammate. That is not a lose/lose situation for the killer.
---
TL;DR The kicking / tapping dynamic is fine. Killers invest a small amount of time up front for the potential of a big payoff in passive regression. Just don't kick gens at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as killer. Asking for nerfs to tapping or buffs to kicking is just asking for very specific killer buffs, not addressing a fundamentally flawed mechanic. If survivors were overperforming there would be many better ways of tweaking game balance before there'd be any reason to mess with regression.
It seems like you're frustrated that kicking gens isn't a consistently strong option, but there's really no reason it should be. Keeping kicking a gen a calculated choice keeps the skill ceiling higher as killer, which is good. Buffing regression would disproportionately hurt solo queue, which is bad.
"Where is that 15% number coming from? That's 15 seconds of wasted repair time from a 2 second kick" It's 12 seconds of survivor repairs. But it's enough to kick a generator, patrol 4 other generators and return before it's finished, or finish a chase and return before that gen is finished. In total, that's 2 seconds+45 seconds+11 seconds=58 seconds, with 1 second left of it being finished. That is assuming the gen is being solo'd. If its 2 people fixing it, that's a total of 54 seconds. In the same time, survivors could have finished 1 gen together and work on that other gen together, giving 45+7+travel time=52 seconds+travel time. So if 2 survivors are working on a gen together before you have time to kick that generator, you're guaranteed to lose both. Even with the 15% regression, but at least with the 15% regression, you can return to the generator you kicked and potentially injure 2 survivors, slightly shortening the chase while forcing at least 1 heal.
"As in, you have the potential to waste a lot of survivor time without investing much time yourself." If you call 0.1% potential. That's like saying Power Struggle without flip flop still has the potential to stun the killer. Yes, there is a slight chance for it to work out in your favor, but that is the exception, not the rule.
"You don't need to "punish" tapping by kicking the gen again. Punish them by quickly downing and hooking them so they're incapacitated, forcing a teammate off gens to come for the save, and chasing a third survivor off of their gen." Again, how? The survivor can easily drop a pallet, tap a gen and leave the area without being punished at all. Tapping a generator is essentially free. No punishments. The only risk you take is that Bloodlust has more time to accumulate, but drop a god pallet and the killer is forced to lose all his stacks. Gen tapping has no punishment. The only punishment that is recieved with gentapping, is the survivor being bad.
"You almost always have to deviate your path at least a bit, and therefore lose time/distance, to tap a gen. It's not as simple as standing next to the gen and seeing how fast you can hold and release M1." Except, that it is. You almost NEVER have to deviate from your path. Generator inside a T&L? Free tap. Generator in a Jungle Gym? Free tap. Generator in the killer shack? Free tap. Generator in the main building? unless it's Haddonfield, Thompson House, Mother's Dwelling or Coal Tower(aka, the stronger survivor sided maps), free tap. Generators part of a pallet loop? free tap. I can go on. The only generators that are not a free tap, are 4 man gens. The rest are easily a drive-by when you're running towards a pallet or a window anyway. You do not have to deviate from your path in the vast majority of cases.
"You can't reasonably argue that giving up distance in a chase for nothing doesn't result in a shorter chases" Yes, I can, you know why? Because you can gain distance too. Heck, sometimes losing distance can allow you to gain more distance than not having lost that distance would. Aka a dead hard to a window or pallet to avoid an m1 hit from a killer because he got too close, forcing the killer to walk around, which you might not have been able to do because the distance was slightly longer, meaning you would already be past the window or pallet, which already forced the killer to walk around without using their m1 gaining you distance. Let alone that getting hit in an enclosed area allows you to take advantage of that situation and discombobulate the killer a bit with misleading scratchmarks, which would have been a hit out in the open otherwise. I can think of plenty more situations where giving up distance leads to a longer chase. And even the easiest one: Adrenaline. Tapping a generator to prevent it from regressing means you have more chance of Adrenaline triggering mid-chase, where leaving the generator regressing might trigger Adrenaline too late.
"It is 8 meters, not 13 meters. 8 meters just takes ~13 seconds to make up." Eh, I'm too far with this comment to look up the original context, worst case scenario, I made 1 mistake by misreading my old comment. The overall point still stands.
"It is entirely relevant that survivors do not get passive progress from tapping a gen." How is it relevant? Again, there are already gens passively progressing from the killer POV since there are 3 survivors that are not being chased. Having potentially 3 generators being progressed with 1 charge per seconds gives that killer 80 seconds to hook you and push off survivors off all 3 generators before 3 generators pop. A popped generator cannot be undone. Generator regression is more important to a killer than getting hooks is. That is why it's irrelevant. A killer cannot hold m1 on a hook and magically make a survivor appear on there. A killer has to walk around the map to capture his objective. Survivors do not need to walk around for their objectives. Since gen regression is so important for killers, having an action that is essentially free for survivors that completely stops regression, there is an issue. That is why the passive progress is irrelevant. You know what would be equal? The killer being able to instantly down and hook a survivor within 0.1 second of the survivor being unhooked. Yet, that's not the case, let alone that there are perks preventing that from happening. Killers do not have a BT equivalent for generators that they kicked. They do not have a DS equivalent for gens that they have kicked(Overcharge actually gets close, but you can hit a skillcheck to prevent Overcharge, you cant hit a skillcheck to prevent DS as a killer). You might argue that Pop is similar to DS in effect, which is true time-wise, but that only works if they hook a survivor. Which would be like survivors getting DS if they finish a generator. As a killer, you cannot kick a generator and prevent survivors from touching it for 15 seconds. So equal actions: unhooking a survivor vs kicking a generator, taking roughly equal time. Yet one can be cancelled/paused within 0.1 seconds and the other one can be prevented by BT, tanking hits, DS and even Camaraderie. Let alone that killers do not have addons or perks that significantly speed up the sacrificing of survivors. If survivors ignore someone on the hook for 58 seconds and unhook them on the 59th seconds, they still saved the survivor in time. If killers ignore a generator for 78 seconds and kick it on the 79th second, that gen is still lost. Let alone that survivors have access to toolboxes, brand new part, fast track prove thyself, resillience, spinechill and soon object of obsession to increase generator speeds. So yeah, passive progression on generators not being there after a tap is irrelevant. This should clarify why it's irrelevant.
"The game thinks that the chase is over" You're actually wrong here. The game does not think the chase is over. You still have bloodlust after the music is gone for 5 seconds. The chase isnt over untill 5 seconds after you lost the survivor. Which means that if you re-initiate the chase within 5 seconds, the chase never ended. It just banked the points as a lost chase, but the chase doesnt end there. And if there is enough distance between you and the killer to actually not be in chase, yeah, gen tapping is fine, as it's not mid-chase. As for Nurse. So ######### what? Nurse doesnt need to touch a generator at all. Nurse doesnt need pop, doesnt need ruin, doesnt need anything other than information like Nurses calling, discordance, bbq, shadowborn, sloppy butcher, blood hound, infectious fright. Nurse is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Even more irrelevant than the argument that gentapping doesnt passively progress the generator(it actually can, btw. If you tap a gen with BNP, it will passively gain 15% progress).
"you're left with a mechanic that feels extremely inconsistent for both sides." Good, because that deters people from relying on it.
"The killer is not supposed to be able to counter all gen progress with base regression." Never argued that.
"kicking usually isn't a good idea. If survivors know what they're doing they'll be pressuring multiple gens simultaneously," If this is true in a final gen situation, it's not a 3 gen. It might be close to one, but it is not. A 3-gen gives you the possibility to have equal pressure on minimally 2 gens consistently, being able to keep survivors injured and while they run off, kick the gen they were working on to regress it to 0 while they are forced to heal to try again or try to bait you out. If you cannot afford to kick a gen, you dont have a 3 gen. Just a strong final setup.
"killers are never forced to kick gens and in fact usually shouldn't be kicking them." They actually should, generator progression being fast enough to finish all 5 generators before the killer is capable of guaranteeing a kill is enough of a factor that killers do need to force generators to regress. Which is why Ruin is ran a lot, because it removes the need to kick gens while also having better regression. Pop is used a lot aswell, but with Pop you actually dont want to kick any generator that has less than 25% progression. Killers SHOULD be forced to kick gens, and in fact kicking them should reward them in some way that punishes a survivor that taps it. Whether that's 5% instant regression or 5-10 seconds of double regression rate doesnt matter. As long as it gives a survivor a reason to not tap the generator in front of a killer that's chasing them.
"but they're usually just doing what they have to do because the killer is camping the hook." Double standard AND a false assumption. There are plenty of reasons why the killer is nearby a hook: Scratchmarks leading to the hook, the killer actually seeing you run to the hook and trying to hooktrade, the survivor nearing second stage and the killer trying to ensure second stage is being reached. Camping is actually rarely the case for BT triggering. "usually just doing what they have to do" LIKE THE KILLER PREVENTING GENERATORS FROM POPPING BY REGRESSING THEM? Seriously, double standards much.
"TL;DR The kicking / tapping dynamic is fine." It really isnt.
"Killers invest a small amount of time up front for the potential of a big payoff in passive regression." 2 full seconds, meaning up to 4 other gens could gain 4 charges, for the 0.1% chance the generator regresses longer than 60 seconds that coincides to a whopping 16 extra seconds of solo survivors touching the gen. Totally fine.
"Just don't kick gens at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as killer." Just dont unhook survivors at stupid times and that mechanic will help you as a survivor. Oh, nvm, BT. Or just like you shouldnt tap a gen at stupid times an- oh, nvm, dead hard into a pallet. Yeah, totally fine.
"Asking for nerfs to tapping or buffs to kicking is just asking for very specific killer buffs, not addressing a fundamentally flawed mechanic." So what is it, totally fine or a fundamentally flawed mechanic? You cant have both. And its not a specific killer buff, it's not like it only affects trapper. Its a generic killer buff just to have a quality of life to kicking generators. The suggestion isnt even hard to implement. They already have a similar effect in the game.
"If survivors were overperforming there would be many better ways of tweaking game balance before there'd be any reason to mess with regression." Except that generator progression vs generator regression is THE reason that survivors are overperforming in high ranks. There is literally no other survivor mechanic in the game that is as impactful as progression vs regression. If killers have enough time, you could literally add 1 billion pallets to the game. You cannot shorten the average chases, because that makes survivor very unfun to play, and killer a lot less skill full. So the average time to match up chase time is to give killers the ability to regress generators. Heck, it could even be basekit that generators start regressing normally and that Pop disables gen regression. Gives Repressed Alliance more play aswell. As long as there is some benefit to gen regression.
"It seems like you're frustrated that kicking gens isn't a consistently strong option, but there's really no reason it should be." I am actually frustrated at you being incapable or extremely unaware of playing killer. Gen progression is fine as it is, its the ratio between progression and regression that is not. Therefor, gen regression needs to be better. That is the reason that gen regression needs to be stronger. Since survivors can stop generators from regressing the instant they touch a gen, the only reasonable place to add the bonus in gen regression is at the moment of kicking.
"Keeping kicking a gen a calculated choice keeps the skill ceiling higher as killer, which is good." It really doesnt tho. In fact, giving killers more reason to kick gens normally and finally not needing to rely on Pop or Ruin would increase the skill ceiling. Killers should not require to choose 1 of 2 perks to stand a chance. That's like requiring survivors to be forced to run DS to stand a chance. Survivors never were forced to run any specific perks or perk combination to stand a chance. So why should killers be forced to?
"Buffing regression would disproportionately hurt solo queue, which is bad." It really wouldnt tho. Besides, even if it would significantly impact soloQ, all the more reason to (finally) add in a ping system. HSHS has a ping system and it actually works more reliable than comms without actively impacting the skill of the killer. Buffing regression is fine.
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2132602#Comment_2132602
"base gen regression is fine:
-assuming there will be a 3 gen
-assuming the killer can down survivors consistently while preventing survivors from breaking 3 gens
-assuming 1 survivor dies before there is a 3 gen
-assuming the map has generated with a decent 3 gen in the first place"
So we're assuming that the game is balanced around:
- Tunnelling one survivor out of the game asap.
- Establishing a 3 gen.
So... why is it bad for a killer to do these things?
how would you even come to this conclusion? The game is not balanced around getting a survivor out asap, nor is it balanced around getting 3 gens. Heck, the devs have been trying to implement things to prevent 3 gens and rushing kills to be meta and give survivors tools to punish survivors forcing 3 gens or rushing out kills.
But yeah, base gen regression is what leads a lot of players to decide to rush out a kill and enforce a 3-gen if they assume their opponent is a sweat squad, because its the only true way to use gen regression as a killer. Any other scenario and gen regression is a joke.
Devs need to give a reason for killers to patrol gens, they need to reward killers for taking time to kick a gen. Gentapping is fine as a mechanic, but the kicking vs tapping is ridiculous.
-
@brokedownpalace said:
Similar to how they nerfed moris? Or do you think their key rework will require actual balance testing in a PTB because it's likely to be a bit more complicated than the nerf they gave moris?
They tested the waters with a slight key nerf in the PTB so I am leaning towards a key nerf either once this midchapter goes live or the RE chapter. I think/hope it's coming real soon.
No, balancing keys is going to be much harder than balancing mori's for the simple fact that killers already have access to perks and playstyles that make keys useless. There was no way for survivors to make a mori useless, other than never being hooked.
In fact, I actually dont think key's will be nerfed themselves. I think hatch spawn mechanics will be altered. How would you nerf a key? Their aura readings are strong, but not strong enough to get a nerf. It's their interaction with the hatch that would be noteworthy of a nerf.
So, hatch time being reduced from 30 seconds to 10 seconds will likely remain if all gens are done(because lets be fair, once all gens are done, keys are fine). But the hatch prior to the final gen being done will hopefully only open up for at most 2 people. With the hatch hopefully no longer being open to the final survivor if people already escaped through the hatch.
This takes a long time to straighten up. Keys arent really as powerful as the older mori's were, not even close. Heck, keys and mori's are now the closest in balance they have ever been. Mori's used to be the counter to BNP's. Once BNP's were nerfed, nothing got close to the BS that was the ebony mori. It's a bit gutted now, but it's been reigning most overpowered ######### in the game for 4 full years. It deserved to be gutted.
-
@Lord_Tony said:
the mori nerf was lazy
and they should have nerfed moris the same day they nerfed keys
Mori's were gamebreakingly strong. Keys are bullshit, but not gamebreaking.
1 Ivory Mori could guarantee a green rank killer a 4k on red rank survivors. It takes red rank survivors to guarantuee a 3 man escape against a purple rank killer.
Arguing that Mori's were fine because keys exist is simply killer mains not having a clue on how both sides play. Mori's removing 1/4th of the team without it being a hex, without it being a perk, without it being an addon that requires a shitton of stalking, simply hooking 1/12th of your total hooks to win the game, vs a key that requires survivors to finish at least 4/5th of their objectives to have 3 people escaping.
I mean, even if you say finishing 4 gens isnt hard, getting 1 hook, waiting 15 seconds for BT and then holding m1 is literal childs play.
-
@vladspellbinder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2129376#Comment_2129376
I've got all the set up for streaming on Twitch (sans face cam) and even not counting that have recording software. I just don't fire it up when I play because I'm playing for fun and the majority of matches I do play are not worth recording.
But every so often you have that one game where dumb and or insane things happen and you wish you had it recorded... .
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2129388#Comment_2129388
This is the first I'm hearing the "check point" idea. One thing to keep in mind is that new people are always coming into the game and onto the forums so ideas that are old hat to you are new to them. I only recently started the game, end of 2020, and have only been on the forums for a few months as of this posting so I'm trying to play catch-up on a lot of things.
I'm not really sure how I feel about having Ruin, even a weaker version of Ruin that stops at key points, being a base-kit sort of thing. It always feels bad as Survivor when you get a gen to the high 90% of completion and are then chased or, worse, grabbed, off of it and when you can finally get back around to the gen you find no other Survivor came by in the time you were gone and it's now either totally dead or in the low 20%. I've been there as Survivor. It makes me want to cry when it happens.
So if there were check-points there would need to be more of them and not less. Maybe something like every 15% was "banked" unless the gen was in "regression mode", which is either active Ruin or having been kicked and not repaired since the kick. It's easy enough to gain 15% and being caught out between those marks won't feel as bad when you can get back to the gen as Survivor. It's also give Killers a bit more reason to kick a gen after downing someone, because if you can get it under one of the check-points before another Survivor comes along and then bother that gen again once they you get more regression.
The only issue when it comes to having check-points is how it would interact with Surveillance. Maybe add in a fourth color for when a gen hits a check-point instead of regression being stopped by a Survivor? I'm not sure if they go from white to red if they hit zero or not or if they hit yellow for a moment before going back to red. Maybe when it hits the check-point it just goes right back to red without having been yellow. Bit of an odd duck.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2129599#Comment_2129599
The repair speed hinderance shouldn't be too high, and I think 30% is just too high. The point isn't to prevent Survivors from repairing gens early to but make the game more fun both both sides. Also I think the main two conditions should be either to escape a chase or change health states. so if the Killer finds you and they either choose not to chase you or do chase you and you slip away you're no longer hindered. It's basically to same as having started the chase but doesn't take into effect until the chase is over.
And really almost anything that gets people to Do The [bad word]ing Bones is a win in my book. Helps me as Survivor, fewer chances for NOED, and helps me as Killer, keeps them off gens for some time.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2130010#Comment_2130010
When I play Survivor I'm pretty much always playing Solo, very rarely do I ever get to play in a SWF. I'm often teamed up with two and three person SWFs though. You are ignoring that if you do anything to a less than four man SWF you'll be hurting Solo players.
I consider myself to be a Killer Main, for every Survivor game I play I play maybe five or six Killer games. Having said that I still say that we shouldn't try and nerf SWF but instead should in some way buff Solo. And then once Solo is on-par with SWF and Killers are starting to underperform then we buff Killers. At no point in time should there ever been a penalty for playing with your friends. For every team of four de-pip squad hard-core gen-rushers out there there are many more teams of four friends who just want to casually enjoy their game of cat-and-mouse together with someone they don't know as the Killer. There is no way for the game to tell two groups apart so anything you do to one will impact the other and make it less fun for the casual people.
And if I haven't made it clear yet my whole goal is the make the game the most fun it can be for everyone. I know you can't totally please everyone but you can make it so that there more people that are happy than there are people that are unhappy, and punishing you for playing with your friends isn't the way to make people happy.
Unless they are the sort of people who like that sort of thing that is. Which I play Dark Souls so... .
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2130286#Comment_2130286
In my example game on this very post I have that exact scenario you talk about early in the game. Getting the Tinkerer proc and bothering two people on a gen, hitting one before looping back to the other person to chase that person off as well and getting a hit. That gen didn't get finished until later in the game. Ruin did it's job and I did mine. I was putting pressure on people to give Ruin time to work. I wasn't always bothering two people at once but I was constantly in chase and I was getting hooks often enough that it didn't feel too bad. At many points I knew where three or all of them were at because of various reasons and most of those times the answer could be summed up as "Not on a gen".
Ruin didn't go down until three gens had been finished, and by that time I had single hooked everyone, second hooked one person (who was saved in the middle of ->) and was in chase with a third who I'd already injured and was in a good position to down because they were in a dead zone.
My problem was that I felt like I was applying decent pressure and gen were still getting finished so fast. There never seemed to be any time only one Survivor was working on a gen, it was always at least two people, so I was really sure it was Prove Thyself but it wasn't.
I will freely admit I'm not the best Killer player, and that I have a lot to learn and get better at. But saying basically nothing more than "Apply more pressure" is not constructive advice. How can I apply more pressure? Without tunneling someone out of the game how can you apply more pressure when there is only one of you and four of them? Slug? Because the answer always seems to come back around to either tunneling or slugging and I don't normally do the former unless someone has been toxic and I don't do the later for a 4k but will do it sometimes to slow things down a bit.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2130515#Comment_2130515
A minute is a long time in this game and 50% is super punishing AND being Oblivious is basically a free hook to every Killer ever, the only reason it's not broken on Nightmare is because of the kid's song. If this was done only the extreme masochists would ever play Survivor and that'd kill the game more than the lack of Killer Players ever would.
Being hooked should already be punishment enough for getting caught, no reason to slap on a repair penalty as well. And, again, a minute is a really long time in this game. The Haste effect is also better than D.S. and is really what D.S. wants to be: true anti-tunnel. You can't get tunneled if the Killer can't catch you after all.
If you gave Survivors a reward for others dying it would encourage them to be less helpful to the teammates while at the same time also encouraging Killers to slug more often. While the idea seems nice at first glance it isn't in-line with what is intended to be normal gameplay.
I'm all for adding to base-kit gen kicking. 2.5% is really reasonable, I normally say maybe 1 or 2 personally but 2.5 isn't a bad idea. But this topic isn't about base-kit kicking or regression, no matter how many people keep bringing it up. If you have an active Ruin the whole game kicking never comes into play.
If this was done then everyone would switch to using Brand New Parts the way I use Brand New Parts: for the last 25% of the gen, making it pointless. I pretty much always wait to use my toolbox to finish a gen, this includes when I run B.N.P. so making it highlight a gen does nothing to it, unless you also add that it can only be used on a gen under 50% or something like that, which would be a big nerf.
I don't mean to be mean and just shoot down all of your ideas but my goal is to make the game more fun for both sides, not just for Killer. While it most likely won't be possible to make things fun for Killer without making them harder on Survivors in some way there should be something that can be done to make it at least some what more fun and interaction on the Survivor side. Just slapping penalties on them is neither fun nor interactive.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2130540#Comment_2130540
Lack of mobility with stupid large maps. I was playing a slow Killer as well so "lack of mobility" was probably a key factor in why the gens felt like they went by so fast.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2130572#Comment_2130572
I'd rather not get quick time events please. They are one of the things that is putting me off of Home Sweet Home: Survive. I don't mind skill checks because it's the same key every time and you get a good warning. Having to worry about what key to hit is what annoys me about Q.T.E.s and what H.S.H.:S. has going for it, being either "Q" or "E" is not fun to me.
I'd be all for adding more skill-check to gens, but have it so that only a few of them have the "Great" area on them, being more like an Overcharge check or an Autodidact one. Because if they are just base skill-checks having more of them would defeat the purpose because good Survivors can hit that "Great" more often than not and those 1% jumps add up over time. This would interact oddly with Stake Out but it could be changed to say like "for checks with a Great area Good" or something.
"How can I apply more pressure? Without tunneling someone out of the game how can you apply more pressure when there is only one of you and four of them?"
My main rule of thumb has been: if 3 generators are finished, 1 survivor needs to die. Regardless if the only survivor that is dead on hook has just been unhooked. One of them needs to die. It's not really tunneling, because you already hooked people extremely fairly at that point, and they made the mistake of finishing the 3rd gen before you had a chance of getting someone else dead on hook. Sometimes tunneling is needed. Survivors wont hesitate tapping a generator you just kicked, survivors wont hesitate using DS at 59 seconds, survivors wont hesitate using dead hard to a pallet to extend the chase. So why should you hesitate removing someone from the match if you need someone gone?
The only way to punish gens going fast, is by making a kill go fast. I prefer hooking everyone twice if I get the chance to, because I enjoy giving survivors the chance to learn, especially since matchmaking is kinda screwy right now, but if I notice a team can handle their own and they are going too fast, they are forcing my hand into killing their teammate. Besides, if someone else was unhooked without you actively going after them, and them crossing your path later on at 3 gens, they ######### up and deserve to be hooked even if they are dead on hook. Tunneling requires you to actively go after someone who was unhooked recently. If it's been 30 seconds of you not actively chasing them and they happen to get across your path, it can no longer be considered a tunnel. I've had cases where I hooked the same person twice in a row with 5 gens remaining, simply because I couldnt find their teammates. I literally spend 40 seconds checking every single gen to find a survivor and looped back on the generator close to the hook to only find the survivor who got unhooked. Sometimes games be like that. Dont be afraid to get hooks on people. As long as you dont rush them out of the game, they've had plenty of time to heal up, work on gens or get their teammates to tank a hookstate.
Essentially, you seem to be too afraid of people getting mad for being tunneled. Sometimes tunneling is the only way of turning the tides. Do not throw your own game to satisfy your opponents, they wouldnt throw their game to satisfy you either.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2130311#Comment_2130311
1) If you're chasing someone around a gen you just kicked, you kicked the gen at a bad time. If you're chasing someone around a gen you kicked a while ago, you still got good value out of that kick regardless of whether the gen was tapped. Gen tapping mid chase is also not without risk. If you take .5 seconds to stop, tap a gen, and get back on track in the loop, you're losing 2.3 meters on a 115% killer, which translates to almost 4 seconds of chase time. That might mean you get one less loop around your pallet, you get hit just as you're vaulting through the next window instead of being safe, etc. It should generally lead to shorter chases, which may or may not be worth the regression time you save. It's a calculated risk, just like kicking the gen the first place.
2) If you decide to kick a gen instead of chasing a survivor and give them 8 meters of distance for free, you kicked the gen at a bad time. That's not a problem with the kick mechanic. That's the killer being an idiot.
That "actual logic" is ignoring the fact that regressing a gen gives continuous and passive value until survivors return to a gen. One two-second kick can give the killer up to 80 seconds of passive regression time. Tapping a gen, on the other hand, does not give any passive gen progress. It just stops regression. The math should also not work out such that killers are guaranteed to get value out of a gen kick. It has always been a calculated risk and always should be. Otherwise it's just a completely braindead mechanic. Requiring 10 seconds just to counter regression is ridiculous. Imagine playing against Ruin with that. Granting instant 5% regression from a kick is a lot more reasonable, but the mechanic is fine as is; it's just one potential balance lever the devs could pull if killers are ever underperforming. That regression is not necessary to counter tapping, since you can already counter tapping by not kicking gens without kick-based perks when survivors are right next to them.
If a gen is at 80% and you're chasing a survivor around a tile where a gen is, you should very likely not kick that gen. The main exception would be if you're running a powerful kick-related perk like Pop, and even then it can be a bad decision in some situations, especially if you're playing a low-mobility killer. Not kicking the gen is not "giving survivors the gen for free". You need to get downs and hooks to pull survivors off gens and ultimately remove them from the game. If you're trading the opportunity for downs and hooks for some likely modest regression from kicking a gen you're just shooting yourself in the foot. You don't always need to commit to a chase, like if you're in a three-gen situation and a survivor tries to drag you away from the three-gen, but the rule about kicking holds even in this situation. If survivors are likely to get back on that gen a matter of seconds after you kick it, you would have been better off not kicking it and using those couple seconds to pressure survivors.
Being selective about kicking gens has nothing to do with saving in front of the killer with or without BT.
"1) If you're chasing someone around a gen you just kicked, you kicked the gen at a bad time." Just like touching a gen mid-chase is touching a gen at a bad time, so why not punish that survivor by regressing that gen faster?
"If you're chasing someone around a gen you kicked a while ago, you still got good value out of that kick regardless of whether the gen was tapped." For you to get value out of that kicked gen, it would have needed to regress at least 15%, which means you would have needed to kick that generator 45 seconds ago. How long does it take 1 survivor to negate that regression? 12 seconds. 2 survivors can negate that regression in 7 seconds. So, that's 47 seconds of killer time that is negated in at least 12.2 seconds of survivor time. If the survivor cannot tap that gen, the longer they chase around that gen, the more it regresses and it would actively force the survivor to leave the area or lose their progress. But they can prevent that by tapping for 0.1 seconds.
"If you take .5 seconds to stop, tap a gen, and get back on track in the loop, you're losing 2.3 meters on a 115% killer, which translates to almost 4 seconds of chase time." IF it took you 0.5 seconds to stop and tap a gen, which is false, it can be done as quickly as 0.1 seconds. Besides, that 4 seconds of chasetime, you can gain back by vaulting 1 window. And besides, if that gen is nearly finished, it would force the killer to either give up that generator to survivors or kick it. So if you tap a gen that's at 90%, you're pretty much either guaranteeing that gen to be finished, or force that killer to kick it, gaining you 13 seconds in chase.
So lets compare: 1 action taking 0.2 seconds that loses you 4 seconds in chase at best and if the opponent punishes you, their punishment can instantly be negated vs 1 action taking 2 seconds that loses you 13 seconds in chase at least, and if your opponent punishes you, you are required to negate that punishment by taking 2 seconds. But lets compare it the other way around: If you have a survivor that is at 99% of being sacrificed, a survivor can tap them to prevent the sacrifice, force a hit, trigger BT and have the BT tank the hit for you. Safely escaping both of you. Taking you about 3 seconds to unhook(vs the 2 seconds of kicking) while the killer needs 4 seconds to gain a new hook at the very least. So we have 3 seconds vs 4 seconds on killer objective while 1 survivor is interrupting the killer objective with 2 teammates actively working on their own objective, while you have 0.2 seconds vs 2 seconds on the survivor objective, while the survivor nearby can actively prevent their objective from regressing, with 3 teammates actively working on objectives with no other killers being able to interrupt them. How can you still think gentapping is fine but 5% base regression on kicking a gen is too much?
"It should generally lead to shorter chases...It's a calculated risk, just like kicking the gen the first place." EXCEPT THAT THE RISK IS NEARLY NON-EXISTENT FOR SURVIVORS. SERIOUSLY. I have played survivor for 1200 hours, I have played killer for 1200 hours. 90% of my chase time on either side has the survivor already being injured. Let alone that a lot of survivors use Dead Hard to extend a chase significantly. Dead Hard alone fully negates the risk for survivors tapping gens. The only way to actively punish gentapping is to have Pop and down the survivor who tapped the gen before survivors had time to finish that generator. So we have pressing E to fully negate the risk of gentapping, vs a full chase, a hook and walking all the way back to the gen that was being tapped to negate the time you would otherwise need to risk kicking the gen. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT EQUAL RISK. Since Gentapping has been in the game since the beginning, the only alteration is adding base regression rewarding the killer to invest 2 seconds of his time into regressing the generator with 4 seconds, punishing people gentapping while STILL losing 9 seconds of chase, while the survivor only loses 4 seconds in chase. SO EVEN WITH THE BUFF, SURVIVORS WOULD HAVE HALF THE RISK OF THE KILLER. Seriously, have you ever played killer at high ranks? Because you clearly have not, I mean, look at this, 4 ######### paragraphs just to address how wrong your first point is in logic.
"2) If you decide to kick a gen instead of chasing a survivor and give them 8 meters of distance for free, you kicked the gen at a bad time. That's not a problem with the kick mechanic. That's the killer being an idiot." 13 meters* And even if it were 8, that same logic should apply to the SURVIVOR, who decided to touch the gen at a bad time. Either way, there is an issue here. Either survivors should no longer be able to tap gens, or killers need to get a base reward for kicking a gen. Because survivors only lose 4 meters if they suck at tapping gens, while killers lose 13 meters even if they optimized the distance by giving a hit, instantly kicking the gen and having the survivor run into a dead zone. AGAIN, 4 METERS LOST IF THE SURVIVOR IS BAD, 13 METERS LOST IF THE KILLER TIMED IT PERFECTLY.
The other logic here would be to give survivors a basekit overcharge skillcheck if they were in chase, which would punish them with 10% if they miss. Either way, there is an issue.
"One two-second kick can give the killer up to 80 seconds of passive regression time." Really, do I really have to put things in caps here just so that you will have an easier time reading why you are wrong here? IT TAKES 5 FULL MINUTES. AND THAT IS ASSUMING THAT ONLY 1 SURVIVOR IS ON THAT GEN. IF THERE IS 2 SURVIVORS, THAT'S AT MOST 44 SECONDS OF PASSIVE REGRESSION. 5 MINUTES FOR 100% OF ONE SIDE THAT CAN BE CANCELLED WITH 0.1 SECONDS OF 25% OF THE OPPOSING SIDE, VS 44 SECONDS FOR 50% OF THE OPPOSING SIDE THAT REQUIRES 2 SECONDS TO START PASSIVELY REGRESSING FROM 100% OF THE ONE SIDE. YOUR LOGIC DOES NOT APPLY.
"Tapping a gen, on the other hand, does not give any passive gen progress." IRRELEVANT, Survivors do not need passive progress as there is always 1 generator being progressed, a killer cannot always regress 1 generator.
"Requiring 10 seconds just to counter regression is ridiculous." 10 seconds mid chase*
" You don't always need to commit to a chase, like if you're in a three-gen situation and a survivor tries to drag you away from the three-gen, but the rule about kicking holds even in this situation." In this situation, your logic holds up. After survivors are capable of finishing 75% of their objective and made the mistake of keeping 3 generators very close or if the killer forced that situation upon you, then base regression is strong enough to keep up with gentapping. Lets clarify this: The killer needs to reduce his patrol area enough that he can keep pressure on 3 generators simultaneously, either giving away 4 gens for free or the survivors making the mistake of not keeping the area of remaining generators maximized, only then is base genregression fast enough to keep patrolling while also focussing on his own objective of hooking survivors. Do you realize how idiotic this sounds? That means that if survivors break up any possible 3 gen early on, the killer has effectively no chance of regressing any generator.
"Being selective about kicking gens has nothing to do with saving in front of the killer with or without BT." It does tho, because hooks are the killer objective, while gens are survivor objective. It takes 60 seconds per hookstate, the only way to speed that up is by having survivors unhook their teammate ASAP, which needs to be pressured by hooking another survivor ASAP. Otherwise the 2 survivors just will stay on gens untill they need to save their teammate. So thats 60 seconds spread over 2 generators, having 2 gens around 80% while you're on your way to hook the other. Meaning that early in the game, you can lose 3-4 generators for 2 hooks. If chasing was all there was for the killer, your logic would be sound. But its not. The killer needs to hook while preventing gens from popping all alone, survivors need 1 of them distracting the killer, 1 of them consistently on generators and the other 2 either being on gens or 1 on hook and 1 saving the person on the hook. Regardless of the situation, there will always be 1 survivor objective being actively progressed, while the killer objective only progresses once he hooks a survivor. This alone makes your logic that gentapping is fine completely irrelevant. Survivors do not need passive progress as there is always 1 generator being progressed, and that progress is 4x faster than the regression is. So even if it were a 2v1 situation, as long as you are in chase, 1 generator is progressed with 1 charge per second. Meaning that if a gen were regressing that you could tap, would only regress about 25% between the killer kicking it, and your teammate finishing a gen. The fact that survivors have 4 seperate agents to consist of a team makes it nearly impossible for 1 generator to regress from 80% all the way back to 0 unless survivors actively ignore that generator for 4 minutes. In those 4 minutes for that 1 generator to regress, 2 survivors can finish 5 generators and open the exitgate. The only real way of negating this, is to already give survivors generators that are outside your effective region for free to reduce the amount of area you need to patrol. Having survivors being able to negate regression for free, while you kicking 1 generator means that another generator is likely gaining 3 full charges by the time you finished kicking it, which takes roughly 12 seconds to regress passively, the same amount of time you LOSE IN CHASE by kicking a gen, makes it an issue. So again, your logic does not apply.
The only way your logic fully applies, is assuming the killer can keep more than 1 generator regressing consistently. Which is why Ruin is such a strong hex as long as it stands, as not only does it double the rate, it also keeps all generators that people are not working on in the regression state. But Ruin isnt basekit, its near impossible for a killer to keep more than 1 generator regressing, let alone keep a generator regressing for prolonged times.
So a TL;DR of the situation
base gen regression is fine:
-assuming there will be a 3 gen
-assuming the killer can down survivors consistently while preventing survivors from breaking 3 gens
-assuming 1 survivor dies before there is a 3 gen
-assuming the map has generated with a decent 3 gen in the first place
-
@ShamelessPigMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127027#Comment_2127027
That would make Spirit hard to play, but not necessarily cap her potential. As you correctly mentioned, most good Spirits won't need scratch marks since they're already running the mother-daughter ring, but that won't make it more tolerable to go up against good spirits, just bad ones. Then we get nurse 2.0, with a similar gap between the worst of the worst and the best of the best.
The thing is, good Spirits tend to play fair if they have full control of the situation, bad Spirits dont. It wont fix the problems Spirit has, it would just reduce the salt that goes along with facing Spirit players in general.
If I face a Spirit, I am always going to assume Stridor, Noed, Pop and Haunted Grounds being used, because that's all Spirit needs to get a 4k. Even if a good Spirit would be more likely to using perks like Discordance, Thrilling Tremors, Tinkerer and/or Ruin. There is a very large portion of Spirit players that are just terrible killers and are only in red ranks because of how easy it is to play Spirit.
And as for Nurse, at least there is a challenge going against a very good Nurse, because like good Spirit players, they tend to play fair. Even its near impossible to win unless you rush gens, at least you can expect to not be rushed out of the game if you're the first player encountered. I can get black pips against a strong Nurse, I can get black pips against a strong Spirit. But everytime I face a bad killer playing Spirit, all they do is rush me out ASAP and I might aswell just disconnect.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127015#Comment_2127015
I don't see why this is an issue. When survivors tap a gen, it does not passively gain progress until 100% while they go off to do other things. When killers kick a gen, it passively regresses to 0% while they go off to do other things. It makes sense that the latter action requires some modest time investment. If done at appropriate times, kicking gens should save the killer much more time than they invest with the kick.
There is no need to give 5% base regression for kicking a generator unless survivors are overperforming and this is intended as a lever to alter game balance. The mechanic itself is fine. Killers just need to be selective about which gens they kick. If a survivor is tapping a gen you just kicked and you're not running Pop, you're doing it wrong.
Let me tell you why you are wrong:
- a survivor can do this mid-chase. Having 0 time investment and preventing the generator from regressing progress that survivors have put in. So lets say it's a gen with 70 seconds worth of solo progress. A survivor can use 0.1 second of their time mid-chase to save all that progress.
- A killer kicking a gen for 2 seconds means a survivor can make 8 meters of distance, which requires 13 seconds to close, so a killer actively extends his chase by 13 seconds for 2 seconds invested in preventing a gen from being finished, which can be fully negated by the same survivor in chase within less than 0.1 second.
Gen regression is already about 25% of solo survivor progression(1 survivor adds 1 charge per second, base regression is 0.268 charges per second, meaning it takes about 5 full minutes for a generator at 79 charges(aka 99%) to regress). So if we use actual logic, if a killer needs 2 seconds to cause a generator to regress, it SHOULD take the survivor 10 seconds to stop it from regressing just for the math to work out. THIS is why kicking a generator should have 5% base regression added to it, because 5% of 80 is only 4 seconds of solo survivor progress and 2 seconds of 2 survivors working on it. 5% really isnt that much, it would just punish people tapping the same gen multiple times when the killer is nearby. You shouldnt be touching a generator if a killer is nearby, just as much as you shouldnt be dropping shack pallet if you're at full health.
"Killers just need to be selective about which gens they kick."
So, if a gen is at 80%, you should just not kick it because you're in chase? You should just leave it and let survivors finish it? You should just give survivors the gen for free? I mean, that's like a survivor being on a hook, and the killer being able to hit you twice without needing 5 stacks of STBFL because you shouldnt be able to unhook your teammate in front of a killer, even if that teammate is 2 seconds away from being removed from the game. You should just be selective about which survivors you unhook, even if you have BT. So if a killer is next to a hook, bodyblocking and trying to bait a hit for an unhook should be deleted from the game and just guarantee the killer a kill?
-
@vladspellbinder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2126999#Comment_2126999
It was just an idea, one I wasn't even feeling that strongly about, no reason to be rude about it. But sometimes you do need to call the stupid thing stupid so... .
People kept brining up Scott's idea but you're the first person to actually say what it was and I could never find the right video. I'm not sure how I feel about each gen having a specific item for them and not just a general item that works on any gen. There being specific items for specific gens solves the issue of a generic item spawning right next to a gen but it also causes an issue that a Survivor can pick up what's needed for a gen and prevent everyone else from effectively working on that gen, making them forced to be really slow.
Still, the idea has merit and with some tweaking of things could work.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127015#Comment_2127015
While I agree that kicking and base-kit regression is a problem my example game Ruin, which casues double base-kit regression, was up for four gens and I was able to apply decent pressure for most of the match and even so four gens got finished before I had anyone on death hook.
I was "playing fair" when I could, and not going after the people already hooked unless I came across them but even if I had tunneled someone out I'd not have been able to apply the pressure I did so they'd still gone by so fast.
My point is that it wasn't kicking but just gen speed in general. getting a buff to kicking in some fashion would be nice and really help but doesn't address the issue of how fast gens can fly. You can't kick a 100% gen after all.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127018#Comment_2127018
I actually like this idea, as both a Killer and a Survivor. It'd make the game more interactive and give the Survivors something to do instead of holding M1 the whole match.
Thinking on it you could set it up that each gen needs two items, from a choice of a spark plug, a gear, some wire, and some fuel, with each gen needing a semi-random set of two from those four. When a Survivor comes across a gen they interact with it and see the aura of all versions of one of the items that gen needs. This aura reading is not permanent but it lasts a long while and is affected by anything that deals with aura reading. Once you've got one of the items the aura of the gen you interacted with is shown to you so you can find your way back to it. Interacting with another gen will show you one of the items needed for that gen and over-rides the previous one you touched.
Gens without the items can be repaired, but can't be finished until it gets both items it needs. This will make it so all of the various perks that care about gen pro/re-gression don't become useless data. Maybe combine it with Scott's idea above and for each item missing from a gen the total time needed is prohibitively high but still feasible.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127023#Comment_2127023
I just want to point out that is all four Survivors are still alive the Hatch won't spawn until all five gens are done. So, no, four Survivors can't escape via Hatch by not finishing all the gens.
I do sort of like the idea of forcing teamwork, the problem there is it would make Discordance super powerful and pretty much an "always run" Perk much like Ruin and or Pop is right now. Maybe if this change was made make it so Discordance only goes off if there is only one Survivor on the gen or it is three or more. That way two people can do their job on a gen without having to worry about giving their location away and any solos have to worry about being found because they are alone. This would of course give a [bad word] ton of information if it goes off on four gens at once but then that's on the Survivors for not working together.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127038#Comment_2127038
The problem with punishing any SWF is that unless it is a full team of four you'll always wind up punishing the solo players that are in the same trial as them. The main thing with SWF is indeed the information shared, and the only answer there is to ban outside chat applications. If DBD had some in-game form of proximity chat they could probably get away with "banning" outside chat. Not that it could really be enforced.
There is no good answer to SWF, because "Just remove it" isn't an option because people want to play with their friends.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127052#Comment_2127052
I also like this idea. The problem is that some Killers can just out-right prevent the first gen from ever being finished so it'd be very hit-or-miss on if this would be fun or not.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127078#Comment_2127078
Hum. While my knee-jerk reaction is, of course, "FASTER?!" this idea does have some merit to it. Maybe not 50 seconds, maybe 65? Split the difference between 50 and 80. And to reset a gen you have to go and physically kick it like normal, and instead of straight resetting it goes to 50%, or 25% if you have an active Pop, and then starts normal regression (which will also hopefully be buffed) or Ruin if you have it up.
Because the main problem I have with a straight up back to zero is even if the gens are faster it'd still feel really bad to the Survivors to have to restart from scratch four times over, basically having to finish nine gens when sometimes five can be a chore. Maybe also make it so a gen can only be "unfinished" once per game, so if they finish it again the Killer is out-of-luck on that one.
And we're never going to fins a solution to tunneling, unless it is straight up made impossible. Even with this change it's still a better idea to get get one person out of the game fast because now you can just reset a single gen that got finished in the time you hunted them down. Maybe make it so the Killer loses a reset when a Survivor dies. That would give them some incentive to not go for early kills unless they don't need the resets.
I mean, Ruin only works if you keep chasing people off gens. You could have Ruin up for the entire game without having any impact because people dont have any reason to go off gens. If there is 2 people working on the same gen and you decide to chase one of them, the other one will return within seconds. That's not exactly what we would call gen pressure. That's just you making the gen repairs slower by removing 1 survivor and letting the generator regress for maybe 5 seconds at best.
You could go for an injure on 1 survivor, then go back to the gen to go in chase with the other, forcing the injured one to create distance as they dont know if you would keep chasing while you push the other one off the gen again, forcing the gen to actually regress for a significant time. If there is a survivor nearby to prevent Ruin from regressing, Ruin wont have any significant effect.
-
@Northener1907 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127021#Comment_2127021
Some teams are really good and giving me hard games. But still i am killing them. % 10 15 of my matches everyone escapes and that happening because of my mistakes.
I dont know why people talking about swf like tournament teams. All swf groups are not God. And most of them normal survivors, yes matches with them more harder because SWF teams playing good. But still i am destroying most of them.
Exactly, anyone claiming SWF is too powerful because any SWF in red rank leads to a 3 man escape is simply evidence that they have been boosted by Spirit.
-
@latinfla4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2126970#Comment_2126970
But killers need a second chance perk at end game it's their adrenaline
It's the main counter to adrenaline* I've had too many games where 2 or more survivors were injured, meaning NOED has minimal value, while Adrenaline can have guaranteed value by rushing the last gen with 3 healthy survivors only to tank hits to finish it up with everyone being healed up. While with NOED, you tend to only get max value out of it if you hit a survivor the moment their adrenaline pops.
4/5 times that I do decide to run NOED, it's for the 4% movementspeed. 1/10 times is if I expect Adrenaline and the remaining 1/10 times is if I run a bloodwarden build.
-
@Mineguy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2127043#Comment_2127043
Yeah but then they should buff them and not make a Perk that's extremely broken and makes other perks useless.
Dance with me can be triggered every 40 seconds. You have control on when you use Dance with me and you can always gain value out of it. You dont have much control on when Lucky Break is going to be triggered and you need to heal yourself up as fast as possible to get the most out of it.
As for Lightweight, that perk is only good against killers who use fading scratchmarks to guess where you are and cut you off, not against killers who trace your scratchmarks. It could be slightly buffed, like removing/reducing the sound of footsteps and maybe upping the number from 3 to 5, but it cant really be buffed too much.
"Now it's better to be injured then healthy. Because, you lose no blood and no scretchmarks."
This was almost always the case ever since release. Resillience having 9% increased action speed on everything is a reason to stay injured. Dead Hard is a reason to stay injured. Iron Will is a reason to stay injured, Adrenaline is a reason to stay injured.
The 90 seconds of no blood and scratchmarks is actually a reason to heal yourself up ASAP to get as much value out of it as possible. All the devs need to do is fix the breathing soundbug that Iron Will has to make this perk a non-issue. Incredibly strong, sure, but not an issue.
Spirit mains use Mother Daughter ring, giving them 0 blood, 0 scratchmarks and if survivors have Iron Will, 0 sound on injured survivors. Yet they can still track down survivors by listening. To counter Lucky Break, learn to listen to footsteps.
-
My latest dc stories I can think of:
I had an active DS, power struggle, Unbreakable and flip flop while being under a pallet(12 stun challenge in the rift), having healed to the point where I needed a teammate to pick me up. Then a teammate came to my rescue but the killer was nearby to pick me up. Instead of picking me up OR waiting nearby to stun the killer with a pallet, he decided to drop the pallet the moment I ran out of DS and run away from the killer, causing the killer to pick me up.
I was trying out a 4 hex build with a killer, all 4 hexes were gone within 30 seconds, there was no map. All totems spawned out in the open.
Another killer one, I had the grab animation being cancelled 10 times in a row while getting 0/8 vaulting hits that should have been vaulting hits, it literally made the difference between a 4k and a 4 man escape.
A killer was facecamping and tunneling me, I was gonna depip with only 8k bp as I couldnt even touch a single gen, might aswell leave early and grab a snack.
I personally wish BHVR would just allow you to have 1 free DC per day with no punishment, I rather dodge a game where I'm going to lay on the floor for 4 minutes without being punished 5 minutes for wanting to have fun. I never see the need to DC more than once a day anyway.
-
@Lord_Tony said:
then why have mending down at all, seems pointless its not even a healing action so no nurses calling
Mending is to slow down the game, and you dont really need Nurses Calling if they are mending. Legion is more a killer that benefits from perks like Thana and Ruin as he has the ability to constantly pressure gens and easily injure survivors.
The more survivors are injured, the easier it is to get a quick down before a survivor gets a chance to reach a loop.
If you're playing Legion like you're playing Spirit, you're always going to lose. You use your ability to hit and run as many survivors as you can, then use the remaining timer to close the gap between you and the last survivor you hit. You dont really have to care about generators with Thana and Ruin up.
-
@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/244204/what-does-mmr-aim-to-do-exactly
Well i can tell you that as a 200 or so hour rank 12-15 killer, the game isnt very fun when im up against a team of 4 red ranks with well over 1k hours each. I personally cant wait wait for mmr.
I mean, the ranking system is gonna change soon anyway. It would probably reset people back to rank 20 like it used to, giving meaning to reaching red ranks rather than being boosted to rank 4 right before rank reset and being perpeptually red rank.