Philscooper
Philscooper
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@adam1233467 said:
Hi guys, I hope all of are doing well
I was playing survivor yesterday with my friends, and one of the matches were against a kaneki, and ok, nobody wants to play with the new vecna and I don't mind kaneki so much, but this match was really awkward because, every time he was vaulting right after me on pallets, I was insta dying, every single time, I wasn't trying to vault back, I was just going around the loop normaly.
I thought I was just bad at the game, but afterwards I played some kaneki matches to test this, and I was getting the same hits that my kaneki was hitting me on that match, and I was confused, I have a clip of me playing kaneki to give you guys a example.
As you can see, Renato didn't tried to jump back over me, he was just running from me, and suddenly he just dies, like, he instantly dies without any explanation, and this is not something rare, its very common.
I'm afraid once people realize this exploit, people are going to abuse this like crazy and the hate for kaneki is just going to increase, he is already a not very cool killer to go against to some people, and people will think this is a intentional mechanic of his and hate him way more.
I hope BHVR don't waste time on this and killswitch ASAP.
That "bug" has been in the game since 9.3
Allegedly its a ping issue and not a "hitbox/mechanic" issue.
Even though this could've been avoided but not injuring survivors when near vaulting in the first place.
(Seriously, he does not need that on top of his free injury ans blight chase power)
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Aaaand its from a liecense perk.
Yup, wont get killswitched, thanks bhvr.
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@Mag1cian said:
Rn this killer is one of the most oppressive ones and very terrible to go against, it's just Krasue / Ghoul all over again.
- Spam of Vine attack with no cooldown is terrible, cd need to be at least 4-5s
- "Rabbit Remains" blue addon is absolutely braindead, guaranteed 20s exhaustion is dumb especially when distance is the main counter to this killer you literally cannot use any exhaustion perk against this
- You hardly can bodyblock agaisnt this killer to help your teammates and basekit mori even more incentivises to tunnel with easy counter to DS
- Vine attack / Undergate attack hits even when you're out of range and it feels awful, I guess it's not even related to ping cuz I played against players with 30-40 ping and it still hits you even when you're one step away from the attack, maybe it's hitbox, I don't know
- People quickly figured out that aura readings is busted on him and can see you multiple times in chase for 5-8 seconds spamming Vine attack removing any mindgames devs were talking about when facing him but that's again related to his cooldown, he shoudn't be able to use it like a machinegun
So once more and more players gonna figure out misarable playstyle on him people just gonna dc against him, he's just out and alread boring and misarable to go against (when killer know what he's doing).
Its not as bad as the two.
Its just really bad if you want to cheese with him by holding power and using aura perks to get garantied hits. (Unfortunately distortion sadly does not help whatsoever, since its been gutted)
Its also feels like hes in power and gets power 24/7 even when you "play the counterplay"
Alot of maps also just benefit him more than it harms, preschool is open, the game is open and can hit you from any elevation.
He also just doesnt get effected by tiles as much as anyone else.
Even if you use perks against him, like scene partner and eyes of belmoth, he can still hit you because he just got lucky, held power for 30s or the map is just abysmally bad to play against (rpd, coldwind, dnd map/borgos)
The only reason why he is not this hated, is because ghoul and blight is 10x worse and cheesy than the first ever could be.
I have seen people try to abuse plaything hex perks with thrill, penti and hivemind, but its honestly just like every killer who could run it.
I just wish his power wasnt so spamable and he actually gets punished for missing or holding his power for way too long. He does feel very bullshit when you have to dodge so much and barely get to waste time.
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@Classic_Rando said:
It’s clear that DC penalties are still not harsh enough
Not like you can avoid them regardless how harsh they punish dcing.
If anything, it would've been better if they let people replace themselves with a bot rather than be forced to throw the match just to avoid the penalty.
Bhvr will never fix the issues that survivors dislike.
But that doesnt mean you cant reduce frustrations.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048792#Comment_4048792
I love when you bring that if we balance around mid/low level players we will need to buff Nurse. Few people realize this.
People usually think that "mid/low level" only refers to randoms who don't know how to play survivor yet, but when we consider killers too, the situation gets strange: Blight and Nurse would need some buffs and Sadako, Pig and Legion (and Lich, now) would be the biggest issues in the game since the have really high killrates on low MMR.
Also, Ghoul is the epitome of "balance for lower skill level" design philosophy: he is easy to understand, has some skill ceiling and can make newcomers face veterans in the same ground. Do people really want that? Killers that play for themselves?
From the replies of literally every platform.
People want easy s-tiers like kaneki and survivors to take 1000+ hours to "get good", they want easy matches but dont really want to admit it.
But the moment they have to do something other than tunnel with s-tiers, they cant possibly imagine the game playing out that way, y'know, zoning, using powers optimally, 3 gen defending, awareness against "bully" tactics..
So they :
defend s-tiers (even nurse or old thombstone myers)
Defend why soloq needs to be utter trash, because of usually some "but swf" or "low tier killer" excuse.
(Because by their logic on killers, pig should never be buffed, otherwise people would be forced to play more sweaty swfs, if this sound stupid, it is)
Any indirect way to kick a dead horse as much as they can before complaining and hurting themselves more by having more sweaty swfs overall.
Sure, the stats might suggest a normal rate, but i doubt on high mmr where most sweats usually are (which isnt hard to achieve tbh), killers will probably get a lower killrate due to the constant swf battles they are thrown...even if its 11% odds you get a swf.
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@Name_Unavailable said:
Another easy killer, garunteed hits, nice. 👍️
The thing i dont like going against him.
Is that when survivors use the clock, he still has a noticable 40s of power usage still being able to use.
Which isnt that problematic...if he isnt able to hold his power.
If he holds his power, he is still faster than you, so you have to hold w, but in most spots of the map, you really cant afford too, so if you go back, you already lost the chase, the only thing you can do is fully go back and pallet stun him, but this rarely will happen, especially with more experinced the first's.
I have found to be enjoyable to play against if you know how the user plays him, does he go for full predictions of you holding w?, does he risk double backs?, holds power?.
Compared to ghoul, he still needs to have a minimun of 4 hits to down. He doesnt just quickly get free hits, he still has to earn and still take time to gain power, injure you and down you.
He feels like a mix of trickster because open areas will just screw you over, and nurse, because you need LOS blockers or you will be hit over loops since they dont matter or even hinder you. (For example, vaulting over a window, he can easily hit you since you are stuck in position)
I would probably still prefer the first over ghoul any day since he still has to earn those hits to down you which you can reasonably avoid alot more than anyone can try with ghoul.
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@Teroo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049503#Comment_4049503
No one likes being injured for free with no effort
Do you dc against plague and legion too? Learn to play injured, this is genuine skill issue, ghoul is fine
Their powers is around being injured permamently injured.
They dont just get an injury like :snaps fingers: and another s-tier ability on top of it.
Plague and legion dont just dash or teleport. while you are injured.
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We are never letting dbd evolve arent we...
Oh well, cant wait to genrush with my swf.
Have fun guys.
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@ManOMaker said:
No changes to the new Teamwork perks? With the 5% repair bonus just you and 1 friend can complete a gen in ~22 seconds if you build around it.
Is there to be an expected nerf?Not even hyperfocus can do gens this quick.
I wish this is a new genrush perk but it really isnt.
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@Robotfangirl67 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048321#Comment_4048321
Oh a wizard would have been amazing. But maybe they will down the road.
Never after the vote we have,
Especially if the blue haired woman wins.
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@ClumsyApe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049503#Comment_4049503
Ghoul is fine. It's more blight and nurse u should be worried about.
Nurse NEVER will be ever changed. (I hope im wrong but she hasn't been changed besides bug-fixes for years, they rather nerf predator than change her)
And blight already got nerfs so he is unlikely either, including killer mains also defending that "blight is fine" after his hug-tech and addon changes.
Ghoul has yet to really get knocked down his s-tier status and hes more likely to be nerfed due to his justifable hate, of his gameplay loop not promoting a healthy and enjoyable playstyle.
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No ghoul nerfs...?
Guys, cmon its been 9 months...hes still the most hated killer since skull-merchant got released.
We really have to bring out the "everyone dc's against this killer",
until bhvr acts, dont we?.
I dont know what else we are supposed to do, feedback doesnt work, even content creators and fog-members said he is not healthy the way he is.
No one likes being injured for free with no effort, through the wall, while having more chase mechanics on top of it.
No one likes going against ghoul when other killers do more effort for less.
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@Malkhrim said:
map offerings being gutted are just more useless clutter that no one asked for.
This is not true AT ALL. Many people asked for Map Offering nerfs or even complete removal for years. LOTS AND LOTS of people. Way more than the "bese-kit kindred and bond" you mentioned, that I barely even remember people asking. Check old forum posts if you doubt that. Map design has always been one of the most talked about problems in this game and one thing that always lead to complaints and rants was how people could simply use an offering to pick the most problematic, one-sided map in that favored them. Specially survivors, since there are four offering slots for the survivor's side and only one on the killer's side, and for a long time there were way more survivor-sided maps than killer-sided ones.
mostly used by soloq or low tier killers like doctor or vanity mirror myers,
(yes i know everyone used them, but it mostly effected were the weaker side)This is also NOT TRUE. Map offerings were a very popular tool for tryhards in both survivor and killer sides. It was very, VERY common to see tryhard sweaty SWFs bringing a map offering (and no more than one, since they only needed one to have 100% chance of going to that map). Hell, everytime I noticed I was facing a TTV streamer, I would use a sacrificial ward in case of a map offering, and often someone actually brought one and it was cancelled by the ward.
As you played more and your MMR increased, you started facing survivors who were more skilled, had more hours of gameplay and higher-prestiged characters, map offering also became more and more common. The times when MMR was the most strict and I kept facing 4-man prestige 100s all the time was also the time I needed to bring sacrificial wards almost every match because of how insanely often map offerings would appear. And they would often not even take to an extremely survivor-sided map, but to a map that they knew better how to spread and run loops more consistently, like any form the Macmillan State. Map offerings were a tool for survivors at their STRONGEST, most optimal, not at their weakest.
And do you know who else used map offerings, specially Macmillan State offerings often? NURSES! Yeah, many Nurse players loved to bring an offering to a map they knew well how to navigate in so they could destroy survivors more easily. All you had to do is play survivor after 2 AM, at the time there were less players and many who stayed were people who play a lot, and there were great odds you would start seeing these tryhard Nurses with map offerings.
A lot of what you said in your post were just mentions on any survivor nerfs and assuming it was a nerf specifically to solo queues but not SWFs, but it isn't like that at all. SWFs used a lot of styptics and syringes, BNPs were nerfed too, and Chucky isn't a killer designed around SWF, hell, he doesn't even have the high mobility to deal with the biggest strenght of SWF!
No one asked for more bloodpoint clutter.
The map offering being gutted effected soloq and low tiers more than the "tryhards" ever did, if at all.
Even if those nerfs werent designed to harm soloq, it did in fact do more harm to soloq than it ever did to the top tier killers or the swfs using them.
Chucky's original designed that came in his first iteration, was designed to deal with swfs. (Which was very obvious to witness)
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@TheTom20 said:
The issue with solo que is the team mates not the tools or the killers.
Im sure that will convince people to play soloq again.
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@Elan said:
Feel free to place your opinions here? Are they fair? Should be increased, decreased? Do they create unfun or boring gameplay?
I wish they made it to 6, because my god it takes way too long to proc.
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@top500spiderman said:
Buffing survivors just for solo q is silly
Bringing the baseline closer to the top doesn't fix anything, ul still get tunneled, slugged and ul go against more S-teir killers.
Nerf gen speed multipliers to DIRECTLY nerf swfs, then adjust the current S-teir killers. Does that not help solo Q?
If solo Q is miserable and the devs seems to be balancing around swfs, then bring the top closer to the baseline.
these changes will and i qoute :
" ul still get tunneled, slugged and ul go against more S-teir killers." -
@Venusa said:
Chaos Shuffle honestly just highlights how useless most survivor perks are when you’re being aggressively tunneled.
It doesn’t matter what random perks you get, you don’t even have the chance or time to use them if the killer is determined to remove you from the match ASAP. What’s supposed to be a fun, chaotic experience of discovering and experimenting with perks turns into the same bullcrap 5-minute games where you barely get to play.
You queue up after work hoping for something at least fun, and instead your time is wasted: load into a match, then get tunneled out immediately like the killer’s life depends on it. Rinse and repeat.
Modes like Chaos Shuffle are proof that killers don’t need incentives, MMR, or rewards to tunnel, they do it simply because they can. The devs have shown time and time again that this playstyle is promoted, and ultimately ignored. You can nerf or buff perks all you want, but killers will still tunnel even when there’s no reason to “win” or climb MMR.
Sorry to say, but survivor gameplay is miserable, and Stranger Things Part 2 isn't going to cut it.
Not just tunneling, but how badly designed most perks are, 90%, maybe more are very conditional, situational or downright not worth using at all.
Rookie spirit, see any generator thats being regressed, thats all it does, so when no gen regresses. It does nothing and it a gen does regress, what are you going to do while you are already busy healing, rescuing, looping or already doing gens?.
Distortion : if you have a token, aura revealed by the killer is supressed and scratchmarks reduced
Recharge tokens by being chased.
Useless if killer doesnt run aura.
Conditional due to the limit of forcing people to be chased rather than do the objective, resulting in no appeal to the stealth playerbase.
Roadlife has the same issue.
The list just goes on and it gets WORSE.
Killers have such variety, : hexes, vaulting, kicking gens, anti-loop, haste/slowdown, undetectable, oblivious, aura, exposed, tunneling (STBFL), slugging (Third seal, forced hesitation), (sometimes) addon variety. Anti-heal, anti-exhaustion, anti-item/chest.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
…Meanwhile, the phase 2 changes would have nerfed the low tier killers, and lots of people were ok with that…
With deadbydaylights stats ruling in place and even with the moderators even stating.
If those implementations were going to be so devistating as some people have said for low tiers, which would have easily shown on the stats.
They could have emergency buffed these killers, revert and take away these changes in a hot-patch and see the data comparasion or nerf survivor as a compensation, maybe exhaustion perks, genrush or other meta alternatives, to breed out a fresh era this game desprately needed.
BHVR WANTS, all killers to have a consistent pickrate and 60% killrate, that has never changed and it never will.
So giving dbd the chance to evolve more than just a tunnel/floor/camp simulator and experiment would've been fine in the long run.
There is no ruling to protect survivors though,
If any killer has a high killrate, above the avarage, they usually wait months or years to even act accordingly, if at all.
Kaneki alone is proof of that. Hes the most conplained killer, for 9 months and yet, He's still on top of the roaster.
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@Borglaw said:
man, I really messed up. I got banned from the discord server. Is there any way I can reach out to somebody to appeal? I got a dm from elemental and it says if I need to discuss my ban then add the crew member. Well…I don’t think the crew member is accepting my request… like, I really want to talk about this. I’m not a bad guy, I just had a bad moment. I’m sorry.
yeah its basically ggs, they dont care.
good riddance honestly since they endorse literal p3d0's on their server, let homophobia and griefing slide.
if literally any other server can deal with it better, maybe the "offical" server isnt that good to begin with.
i do very much wished bhvr would just scrap the old mods and hire new ones that arent offline 24/7. -
@RockPaperHook said:
Every killer is a human or a humanoid killer. Humans aren't the only horror creatures. A spider for example is a creature used in horror plenty of times.
edit: (nvm i thought this was a survivor post)
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If ONLY we could've gotten a wizard survivor but noooooo.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048164#Comment_4048164
But tunnelling a survivor out and running 4 gen regression perks is still the best way to win. Could you please elaborate on what you mean by "every strategy" because running gen perks and tunnelling hasn't really changed all that much.
When the devs actually looked at that and tried (very badly, in my opinion) to fix/change that, the pushback they got was so big it never made it to live.
The only strat i can tell from the past notes to be nerfed.
Is hit and run and unable to punish survivors healing on hook.
Undetechable is unchanged.
Aura got buffed, distortion is gutted
Oblivious got buffed.
Some exposed perks got buffed like friends til the end (which only s-tiers obliviously, so thanks bhvr).
There is nothing else that has been nerfed besides that unknowns window vault, gaining a hatse boost if you injure, vault window and you vault aswell....which supiror anatomy exists as a replacement.
The only hex perk that got nerfed was pentimento.
(Which you wouldnt be winning against a cordinated swf anyway).
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@Langweilig said:
Maps overall became a lot worse than they were before the pallet density. Midwich, Hawkins and lerry‘s have gotten a lot of pallets removed and it wasn‘t even mentioned in the patch notes. Skull merchant map (forgot the name sorry) and disturbed ward got shrunken heavily and got a lot of loops nuked. The other affected maps from the update got a lot of terribly bad pallets now, that are super easy to win as killer and as survivor they are just frustrating to play since there is most times no good way to play them. Then some maps have like almost no windows while the pallets are terrible. You drop the pallet the killer runs around and hits you. You vault it, the killer just hits you or runs around and hits you. Add ping and hit boxes on top and it feels ten times worse. It doesn’t seem like it really matters how you play as survivor. I would like loops that are fun to play and not just a struggle where one tiny mistake instantly gets you killed while the killer can make thousand mistakes and even gets rewarded with bloodlust.
From the promised anti tunnel almost nothing cane through, except those lousy +5 seconds of endurance/haste, that do not really help against tunneling at all and are annoying to deal with as killer in endgame. Tunneling got made even easier by nerfing/shrinking of a lot of maps. At least give us the elusive and no hook notification sound. It would make tunneling more annoying for the killer and give players more time before the killer notices an unhook happened.
Lastly medkits got a hefty undeserved nerf with the explanation that it would be too much with the anti tunnel and pallet density, but guess what got reverted + nerfed further than it was before and what didn‘t. The syringe is kinda pointless now except you wanna do a head on clip for YouTube and the styptic is the worst medkit addon and it lacks creativity, because we already have more than enough charge addons.
The other survivor items don‘t feel much better! Keys are pointless after the killing of the bloodamber addon. Maps are pointless after becoming a worse version of WoO and getting rid of their old function. Fog vials do absolutely nothing after their underserved nerf the second week of their existence.
Playing survivor feels like you loose content every update, like you get punished for playing this side and you keep getting nerfed while killers get buff after buff. Some killers are way too OP and are still untouched, which is so questionable to me.
Agree or disagree with me. I‘m just describing my frustrations with the balance decisions of this game.
They let fog-vials die in a week but let kaneki run rampant for 9 months.
They let haddonfield be a empty map for months but change hawkins to not only nerf main, but nerf EVERY OTHER DECENT ROOM HAWKINS HAD.
The railing room?, the rails got broken and it has a window, any other room?, pallets seems to be reduced.
Spawn-rules just universally nerfing survivors across the board.
Anti-camp speed nerfed, its slower than it was before with the ramp up.
It just makes no sense for me to be playing survivor when i get punished just for playing for my team, playing for fun or playing for support.
If im not playing ds unbreakable, i will be tunneled out, someone else gets tunneled out and there is close to nothing i can do about it, because bhvr for some reason stopped caring entirely.
No casual player thinks survivor is easy, no one.
I can name alot of people who have said killer is easy.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043868#Comment_4043868
We don't know that it was "completely scrapped" they tried multiple times with it and failed because they were going about it the wrong way. But nowhere have they confirmed that they just "aren't doing it anymore" as far as we know its still happening while they revisit the implementation of the changes for a later PTB.
Secondly, Ghoul does not have a "very high pick rate" that is massively higher than other killers. If you go by nightlight.gg, ghoul has about a 5% pick rate. That means you see ghoul in 1 out of every 20 games. While that is unofficial data, the last time BHVR released official stats, yes the data showed Ghoul's pick rate at about 5% for japan, and 4% for the world. So going by official stats across all players, its actually 1 in 25 games
There are currently 41 killers in the game. So if there were an even distribution of killer players on every killer, you'd see an average pick rate of about 2.5%. So You see ghoul a little under twice as often as you would assuming a purely even distribution. Which again, in the grand scheme of (1 out of every 25 games) that ain't it chief.
And again, looking at nightlight.gg Ghoul has a kill rate of about 49.84%, pretty much dead even at 50% (which actually if you look at the devs stated goal of 60% kill rate is quite bad, but that is a different discussion), and the last official stats didn't give us kill rates, but put ghoul at EIGHT in terms of lethal killers, with the top 10 being:
- Lich
- Freddy
- Sadako
- Dredge
- Pig
- Twins
- Blight
- Ghoul
- Skull Merchant
- Oni
"Nightlight"
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043779#Comment_4043779
Ad ons have never been changed according to change log
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Y8F4FB8PNB2S/image.png
Correction: some ad ons have been changed going into the ad ons but mostly buffed.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QLDDHWQVXIKR/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X8NGV2JKJ7UD/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/04GT5KBGG1X8/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/38SU4DGEXJ7A/image.png
Overdrive billy didnt fall off because of some addon rarity changes.
It fell off because they changed the BASEKIT aspects of his overdrive chainsaw to the point that most people cant just chainsaw and hug walls or curve as much as they could've before.
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@Xray said:
I can't even believe thats a sentence i even had to type but this has been bothering me since the Shape's rework. Michael now does everything that chucky can do but better. Chucky can make himself undetectable but it only lasts for a certain duration, while Shape can just push a button and he gets all the undetectable he wants. Chucky can sprint forward to hit someone, well Shape can do the exact same thing but Shape's dash is a instadown and he can break pallets with it while chucky has to equip an addon to do that. The only advantage Chucky has on Shape is that his dash can make him jump over a window during his dash which is not that great considering Chuckys dash controls like a drunk rhino. So i ask you BHVR why? Why did you take michael myers and just make him chucky but better? It shouldnt have been this way, was it that hard to just gigabuff him to atleast mid to high c tier in his old state before you lost his license? Shapes identity is gone because you gave him Chucky's identity instead.
Yeah dont ask me why chucky got this treatment but ghoul didnt.
"Hey we know you dont like free injuries, so we did it again AND added blights power with it!"
And everyone is somehow still confused why ppl dc against him....hmm...i wonder why.
Naw, must be a skill issue.
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@Detromen said:
Can we just do something that would make the Atlantic ocean between Low-tier and high-tier killers smaller?
Many killers need changes. I would like to list some ideas.Give Nurse a blindness effect while holding M2. It is a small change, but it would make the games against Nurse much better. I dont think it would affect good Nurse players because they safety blink anyways. But it would make aura perks less effective in chase while not making them completly useless.
Blight should be 110% Killer and he should have a cooldown on his power after breaking a pallet like Kaneki. I would like to see more variety with his add-ons too. Since I see only double speed Blights. And frankly other add-ons are kinda meh. So why would they use something else then Iri and double speed add-ons.
Please make the Rusty Flute add-on on Spirit partialy basekit. The difference between having the add-on and not having it is just night and day. I think she deserves some love too.
Give Ghostface the Drop-Leg Knife Sheat partially base-kit if nothing else, my boy deserves it. Frankly buff his add-ons that arent used or change some entirely some are pretty useless for him.
Trapper needs modernization. He is very outdated. I dont say you rework him completly. But I think he needs to get some love. I would like to reffer to a video from MintSkull. I really liked a lot of things about the ideas for The Trapper that would make his gameplay more fluid while keeping his identity. If anyone wants to watch the video here is the link: https://youtu.be/lF7GVvHlwfY?si=hN-gXMBW0AMUs0od
Give more lockers on the maps, especially on the locker deadzones. Dredge deserves it. There is a lot that could be done with The Dredge. Like make the useless add-ons actually good. The Sacrificial Knife an Iridescent add-on, it sucks. Before I even get to move from the locker the 5 seconds are already expired, please buff it at least to 10 seconds it so useless of an effect for add-on of this rarity.
But most importantly FIX THE GAMEEE!!!!
Lot of killers feels like im driving in half broken car. The buggy mess The Knight and Houndmaster is. Maps should be fixed too their hitboxes sucks so much like what would win? Twig or a chainsaw? The game says that the Twig would win. Fix the Deathslinger, you claimed to fix his hipfire bug, but you did not. And on god why are we nerfing add-ons on mediocre killers? The fact that they are most used is not because their strong, it because the all other options suck.
Sorry for the little rant.
There are lot more things that we could mention and I want the community to put some ideas here. But please avoid conflict between each other. Lot of the problems that affect gameplay is related more to a lack of knowledge on counterplay rather then things being too strong. I think the an understanding between the Killer and Survivor side would be benefitial and healthy for the community. But BHVR should do more in teaching the players on mechanics of the game. The Tutorial is propably more outdated then The Trapper him self. But if you struggle against killers you should ask someone with experience on how to play against him preferably someone who plays him.
(Kaneki should not lock you in place when he hits his power.)You could but more people shout to just nerf survivor or buff killers which no one USUALLY the devs dont take seriously.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/462849/who-is-the-least-buggiest-killer-rn
Trapper.
You literally have no power thus it can't bug out on you.
2 years ago, he had a bug with his traps that made it float above the ground instead of normally staying down.
So, he is not safe.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047813#Comment_4047813
Nurse and blight are s-tier, kaneki is no longer s-tier only his OG version was and maybe the one after first nerf but his addons arent as oppressive as they were and he has more limitations now after two big nerf phases so thats for s-tier.
S-tiers are easy? I dont know but blight isnt easy in terms of mechanical use of his power and some goes for nurse she is totaly different gameplay wise than other killers, only thing that makes them easy is when you understand their power after some time and learn how to use it than they are easy for winning because their powers can do a lot compare to all other killers and whats with that "but You", me? what did I did wrong let mass homicide maniac escape from jail? I think you are little hypersensitive here.
The biggest dilema here if you buff soloq like giving them strong antitunnel you will buff swf too so you will have to compansate the killers because the gab is huge between your s-tier blight and d-tier ghostface but thats something people like tru said since 2020 that if you want to make global buffs and changes and dont be scared or bind to the fact that you cant because one character isnt almost effected by it and others are totaly screwed by it like lower tier killers at the bottom than you must make the gab the smallest as you can but thats too much work now and one of reasons why things like antitunnel changes failed in first place.
But here we are, arent we?
Damn if only you could give the same advantages swfs have when playing....
Its not like you cant give soloq bond or kindred since swf alr know that infomation via callouts.
Its also somehow impossible to nerf s-tiers and buff low tiers instead of just overall buffing and nerfing one side.
But yeah, you are right, impossible to do, im sure nerfing soloq 7 more times will eo the job.
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@tjt85 said:
Get them to watch this 11 hour Otz video on every Killer so they can get an idea of the right counter play. Then get them to watch the 10 hour sequel!
https://youtu.be/xHFHiLcCmTk?si=NWP8ZuT1-oKa0phP
Obviously I'm being a little facetious here. I know Otz has published shorter beginner focused videos, too.
The point I'm making is that DBD is not at all a friendly welcome to new comers (or even lapsed returning players). There's a crazy amount to learn before you even begin to feel like you've started to understand how to play. It took me a while to figure out that DBD is designed around giving the Killer free rein to be as ruthless as they please. There's almost nothing you can do to help your friends Survive a Killer's attention if they're so dead set on eliminating them.
The way I see it, there are two ways to enjoy this game. Firstly, be ultra casual. Never care about winning at all. Take nothing seriously or personally. I had the most amount of fun when I first started playing and had zero expectations beyond hoping for a good scare or two. It was only later on when I stopped feeling the fear that frustrations started to bite.
Or secondly, be a total sweat and go all in and learn everything that you can. Become super obsessed and dedicated to improving. It takes a certain kind of stubborn personality to persevere with this game if you really want to take things more "seriously".
I bet it's the players that fall between these two extremes who eventually hit a wall they just can't push past (this is where I think I am). Maybe your friends will be reminded that DBD just isn't for them. It's definitely not a game for everybody and that's OK. I'm not even sure it's a game for me anymore and I'm 1000 hours into the weeds.
But hey, survivors are being handheld im i rite? 😂.
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Naw, let everyone use toolboxes since those are def more problematic than a smoke bomb…
(See the irony of the killer mains shooting themselves in the foot for nerfing a minor thing that most ppl didnt care about?)
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Stealth is gutted and aura perks/tracking got buffed so this is just a thrower suggestion.
They cant loop because that would take so much to learn while killers learn how to use power, tunnel, slug and zone with 50hr max.
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@UUolf said:
"got frustrated and quit" as any reasonable person would do?
the living garbage developers literally buffed myers to vault vaults in 0.2s in tier 2, and 0.1s in tier 1, pick up bodies insanely faster, break pallets insanely faster, etc, etc, etc, without even needing perks to do so.
they made him disgustingly, insanely overpowered, just so that unskilled children would buy him to have pay to win victories.
same thing with anime kid.
they've made an insane amount of killers overpowered now, and will leave them that way.
Myers isnt even that hard, you hold w and chain tiles and predrop if you feel like he has enough to hit you.
Though i agree, they made a variety of killers just piss easy and extremely hard to counter.
Singu's emps are useless and takes more effort to counter than his ability to reuse his ability, not possible to do if he has 2 cams on a area.
Knight's are able to spam any guard on anyone 24/7 with close to no counterplay when caught in a guard while in chase.
Kaneki, blight and nurse still are the most powerful killer with close to little to no counterplay. (Or they take 50hrs to master while survivors need 1 or 2k of hours of experince)
Spirit has an addon combo that does the tracking for you. (Which atleast exists because of accessability issue, but the same havent been done for survs)
And they keep releasing unviable survivor perks while releasing overtuned killers.
Honestly, them quitting is probably for the best, this game cant be saved.
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@TicTac said:
To give feedback, to vent, to discuss ideas with others or something else?
Someone needs to make sure that there isnt more crazed ideas added to the game.
Lightbringer was one of them....
Idk why the devs want 2v8 to be like 1v4 when 1v4 is not fun due to its balancing.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047618#Comment_4047618
You cant denny his name does have a point.
But kaneki, nurse and blight is fine?.
If s-tiers werent so easy and barely ever nerfed due to people like YOU defending him, more people would be more inclined to nerf survivor and buff soloq.
But here we are.
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@BongoBoys said:
I really don't like when a perk is designed and it becomes super OP when used in a SWF but useless in solo queue. I think thats something we should be avoiding.
Theres bond and kindred but forcing soloq to use these perks seem counter productive
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How can anyone take you seriously with that name...
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@DeFragment said:
It's the map of god pallets. How is this map left unchanged for so long? There is rarely any mindgames going on there.
Ask the jigsaw liecense lol.
I bet they would but the amount of pig cosmetics or changes she had suggest they rarely come in contact for it
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Im SURE they will nerf kaneki and bring out overpowered killer again, so people shelf out their money for em.
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@NotJared said:
It's almost impossible to play a full match of Killer in Dead by Daylight anymore since Survivors have been granted the ability to disconnect if they've been downed twice.
It is genuinely awful and kills my desire to want to keep playing, because Survivors are taking advantage of it to use it like a free disconnect button.
No matter what I do, Survivors will quit over the slightest inconvenience. Anytime I play a Killer they don't like or something doesn't go the way they want it to, they run up to me and force me to down them until they're out of the game.
If I ignore them, they'll either do gens unless I kill them (and they won't put up a chase, griefing the game for their teammates) or just body block me in chases against players who actually want to play the game until I am forced to down the player who's body blocking me (griefing me).
If they do this twice, they get to disconnect for free!
I try not to reward this behavior by not hooking them when this happens, but since the new Abandon scenario was introduced, downing Survivors that are intentionally griefing the game allows them to force me to either get them out of the game as fast as possible, or if I try to ignore them then they are rewarded by being allowed to disconnect with no penalty.
The Downed-Twice-Abandon-Scenario either needs to be modified in some way to prevent intentional abuse, or this kind of behavior needs to be reportable and temp-bannable. It is genuinely so difficult to play a regular match anymore.
Im sure this couldnt have been fixed by making killers not have the most abysmally yet piss easy power design.
Its not like unknown exists with the perfect power and counterplay, naaaaaw lets make more killers like ghoul and gaslight everyone that survivors need to have 2k hours while this killer needs at max 50 to perform well.
But hey, just a skill issue.
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The perks i got on survivor were useless 95% of the time unless i got ds and managed to get tunneled.
When i played killer, it wasnt great either but worst case i can just tunnel with my killer i can pick freely and still win 100% of my matches.
This just says alot on the survivor "variety" we have.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
Remembering back to when Doomed Course released, this perk was easily the most hyped part of the chapter, a perk that let people trade hook states around, which could help Survivors keep their teammates alive if used correctly. There were two prevailing opinions, on one side you had killer mains decrying this perk as flagrantly overpowered and would serve to further divide the power gap between the high tiers and low tiers, on the other you had Survivors mains being extremely happy they had a additional anti-tunnel option that was at the very least interesting to use.
There was a 3rd opinion however, that being my opinion, the opinion that this perk is not worth the code it’s written on or the space it takes up on the perk list, people on DC’s launch were calling it the newest Meta perk, calling it game-changing, calling it whatever, and then about a month later the perk’s use rate promptly fell off of a cliff and everybody moved onto the next supposedly meta defining perk. My opinion has slightly softened but since Doomed Course came out I have seen StB used a grand total of 7 times up until I tried using it myself to see if I was right or not, 5 of which ended in a Killer victory, and all of them happened within the first 2 weeks of the chapter’s launch, I have legitimately never seen it used since except when I was running it, now that could be down to me just simply playing less because ARC Raiders and Monster Hunter have me firmly in their grip, but it does raise a question.
So, if Shoulder is so strong and meta defining, why isn’t it used more?
Let’s first start by seeing what the perk does. If you have StB equipped, you can press an alternate button to unhook a Survivor, doing this will transfer that Survivor’s hook state to you, make you scream, and Expose you for 60 seconds. On paper this feels like a fair trade, keeping a player in the match for longer at your own personal expense, played well it can heavily tilt the match in the Survivor’s favour, played poorly it can give the Killer a free kill.
Let’s be clear on one thing, I am not saying the perk is bad, what I am saying is that the perk is not worth using and is kinda overrated.Let’s first list the perk’s weaknesses that I feel a lot of people overlook before moving onto why it isn’t worth using.
Reason 1. StB has a massive amount of risk to it.
With the vast majority of Survivor perks in DBD, there is minimal risk to either you or your team if you misplay. Perks like Deliverance or Unbreakable for example, you might get caught out first or the killer might not be slugging aggressively, in which case they don’t do anything, or you could be running something more obviously risky like No Mither or Weaving Spiders, perks that have strong effects on paper but carry a large amount of risk to yourself that make them not as good as they could be. Shoulder, to me, fits into the latter category. A lot can go right with the perk, but a lot can also go wrong. The killer might find you during the 60 seconds of Exposed and down you easily, your teammates might get the unhook before you can, the killer might just be playing in a way that makes the perk impossible to use or just not effect the outcome of the match that much. In the few scenarios where it goes right Shoulder is great, but in my opinion a lot of people tend to overlook the many scenarios where it can go horribly wrong.
Reason 2. Opportunity Cost
Something I feel not a lot of people really consider is the fact that every perk in DBD has a opportunity cost, running a perk for situation X might leave you out of luck if situation Y happens, in DBD's case you could bring a perk dedicated to anti-slugging, but that means that slot isn't used for a different perk to make healing faster, or some anti-tunnel, or something to help in chase, etc.. It also means that slot isn't being used by a different anti-slug perk that might work better in a specific scenario, Unbreakable only works when YOU are downed, versus WGLF which works when your teammates are downed, they both do the same thing, just in different ways.
Shoulder is, primarily, a anti-tunnel perk, which means it's competing with the likes of Babysitter and Decisive. Now, in pure mathematical terms, Shoulder is better then DS in this niche, DS only benefits the user, becomes inactive if you do a objective, and is disabled in end-game, Shoulder can be used on 3 other people, is always active until it's used, and can be used in end-game. The problem I have with it comes from the aforementioned risk involved, the worst DS can do is you missing the skillcheck and the perk doing nothing, as stated before the worst StB can do is get you killed early and give the killer the chance to snowball. You're trading something that is virtually guaranteed to work for you and you alone in exchange for something that could potentially swing the game in your favour or completely ruin any chances at a survivor victory.
There is also something to be said about real life costs. Now that Halloween is out of the game DS is a common perk findable in the bloodweb for everyone, StB is a DLC perk that requires you to either spend money or grind the Shards needed to unlock Taurie, then grind the BP needed to prestige her to unlock it for your preferred Survivor. A free perk compared to a perk that costs time and/or money, not exactly a hard choice for a new player that might not stick with the game long enough to want to buy a DLC.Reason 3. StB does literally nothing for you as a individual player.
Many of DBD's best perks benefit the user, which then tangentially benefits the team by keeping you alive longer or completing a objective faster, however there are also plenty that don't do anything for you as a individual player and are centred around helping your team directly. Perks like Botany, Reassurance, BT, Leader, etc. Shoulder is a perk that falls into the latter category, you give up a hook state and risk dying early to keep a teammate in the match for longer. This in and of itself isn't a problem, however, as previously stated, no other perk in the game carries the same amount of risk that Shoulder does, remember, using this perk wrong can give the killer a free win, which makes the fact that it doesn't help you avoid this risk in any way on its own particularly risky and often requires building a perk loadout around it in order to minimalize that risk.
So with those out of the way, allow me to give you the one, very overlooked reason why Shoulder is not worth running.
Shoulder The Burden is entirely reliant on your teammates being good at the game to generate value. This is where I'm going to get uncharacteristically cynical, so be warned.
Lets say you hop onto DBD SoloQ, you have roughly 2000 hours, you've been playing for a while, know how to play against most of the roster decently well, and have a good amount of gamesense. You load into a lobby and get paired with 3 other solos, the first is a Ada with roughly the same hours as you, the second is a Dwight with 5 hours total playtime, he got the game literally this morning, has no idea what he is doing, only has tier 1 perks, and hides in lockers the nanosecond he hears the killer's TR, and the third is a Sable with 1000 hours doing her adept, not exactly the worst thing in the world but still not ideal. You load in, the map is Father Campbells Chapel, you hop on a gen, and then you hear Kaneki's TR. The Ada DC's instantly because of course she does, you get chased and go down about 30 seconds later, the Kaneki BMs and hooks you, and you see the Ada bot on the other side of the map, Dwight in a locker, and Sable in the basement using Weaving Spiders. The match ends in less then 10 minutes and you find the Kaneki was running quad slowdown and doing a winstreak to impress the 7 people that watch him on Twitch, game ends, you move on.
Let me ask you a question, dear reader. Would you have used Shoulder The Burden to help any of these three other players? If your answer is yes, congrats, you have infinitely more faith in SoloQ teammates then I do.
The above scenario is strictly hypothetical and very much so exaggerated, most people you get in SoloQ aren't that ridiculous, but the point remains that the only way Shoulder is able to get value is for your teammates to be competent, which, more often then not, just doesn't happen. I played a small session to get a idea of consistently I as a purely SoloQ player could make use of this perk and you want to know what happened? I never had a chance to use it in over half my games because either my teammates unhooked before I could, my teammates were actually just useless, or I did get to use it and they died 30 seconds later anyway. You have no idea how infuriating it is to take a hook state for someone, that person to look you dead in the eyes, and then they run into the Killer anyway because it's Blight and they don't feel like playing that match out.
Now, is this the fault of StB itself? No not really, but at the same time, if a perk is meant to facilitate teamwork and actively requires you to sacrifice yourself to help other people, what exactly are you supposed to do when the people you are sacrificing yourself for are either next to useless or are actively trying to die anyway? Not use the perk? The perk that takes up 25% of your loadout and could have gone to literally anything else that would have benefited you more? Are you starting to see why I don't think this ######### is worth using? Yes, I am being cynical, yes, most of these problems are solved by just getting a friend to play with you, but that doesn't change that, in SoloQ, Shoulder is more often then not a waste of a perk slot, it carries too much risk and its ability to get value is almost entirely out of the user's control. I do not like perks like this, and its use rate reflects that.
These same problems apply to perks like Duty of Care and Last Stand btw, remember when people were screaming about how overpowered DoC was prior to the PTB? Wanna know how many people I saw using it on launch? One person, ONE.PERSON, and that doesn't even count because I was that person, I was the only guy on Orela's launch trying to seriously use DoC, and I got almost nothing out of it, and Last Stand? I have genuinely never seen it used outside of TWD's launch week when it made you invincible when vaulting. Lemme repeat myself, the perk that people were theorising was going to be extremely annoying was only used when it was BUGGED TO MAKE YOU INVINCIBLE, and as soon as it got fixed its use rate also fell off of a cliff and has legitimately never done a damn thing in any match I have played since it got fixed.
Stopping myself before I go off on a rant, what is the conclusion? Shoulder The Burden is a good perk in the wrong game. It is designed to keep players in the game for longer in a game where the majority of people either do not know what they are doing, don't care to know, or are trying to go next anyway because they're up against Kaneki for the 8th time that day and don't want to deal with it. The only way this perk will ever see a uptick in use rate is if a switch gets flipped in the DBD playerbase's collective conscious and people decide to start taking the game seriously.
But, is this necessarily a bad thing? Well, I don't think so, in fact I want more perks like Shoulder, perks that, while yeah are difficult or outright random to get value out of, at least encourage unique playstyles and can have massive rewards, big playmaker perks that can go amazing right or horribly wrong make matches more fun and keep them from being entirely one-sided stomps, we should have more then a tiny handful of perks that have that sort of potential, I just want those perks to be reliant on the user being good rather then relying on other people, appealing to what the majority of people want gets boring, especially when all they want is strong stuff that generate free value for existing.
TLDR: Shoulder is a good perk in the hands of people that know what they are doing, it's just bogged down by the fact that the DBD playerbase, at large, don't know what they are doing or don't want to play to begin with
G'night
Its not used is because why would i risk myself to use it on someone who cant loop and will die 20s anyway?.
Why should the perk punish me so severely just for playing for my team (even wake up got nerfed) than use selfish perks and just wait for hatch?.
Any chance it had for soloq, died after its nerf post ptb.
If it was free, MAYBE it would've been decent but it isnt.
Babysitter does alot more for those people than shoulder ever did. Not by alot but it extends their chase by 30s (if they dont loop like a complete bot)
Killers dont like swfs, yet want soloq to be nerfed more and more, they get their wish but still whine about swfs, as if they didnt cause soloq to be this way in the first place.
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@moses_lg said:
unbreakable, no mither, and boon:exponential aren’t available to get in chaos shuffle. is there a reason these aren’t available? i understand no mither because it was actually ruining matches in previous versions of chaos shuffle but exponential and unbreakable are outliers. self inflicted anti tunnel perks are still in the mode (DS, OTR, bloodrush) so why aren’t self recover perks allowed?
i also just checked on the killer side and it seems the only perk not available in chaos shuffle is A Nurse’s Calling. why is this not available? just seems like a weird and questionable group of perks that aren’t available.
if you have any suggested reasonings for these not being available in chaos shuffle i would love to hear it because this is something i’m really confused about.
edit: just found out tenacity, soul guard and plot twist are also unavailable in chaos shuffle. seems they really don’t like self control anti slug perks in this mode for some reason since wglf and buckle up are still in the mode. it’s contradicting though because conviction is in the mode and that perk allows you to pick yourself up but maybe they think it’s ok because you go back down eventually. who knows atp, the devs really need to start throughly explaining their reasons for these things.
So killers can slug without any consequence.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FXNPGM6DTI5T/img-1122.jpeg
12,000 people have voted 🗳️ (For the overall performance of 2025)
I think this poll was a little harsh because the game hasn’t always been in this “state” that it’s in now..however I have highlighted the “No” votes and then dug through the feedback to see why. I did not vote but if I were to I would say “Kinda” Dbd has had some amazing moments! Then some not so good ones..
While I enjoy and love the work behavior puts in, truly! The focus that everyone has been talking about in this particular voting poll is “Bug Fixes”
“We just want a working game. That’s it. Nothing more. Nothing less. Nobody is or was asking for anything else. Just bug fixes. Killer fixes. So hopefully we are going to be able to put more focus into that this year. “Please 🙏🏼 from the community to the dev team…We just want bug fixes and killer bug fixes.
they did basically promise us to fix slugging and tunneling only to back off because they cant handle changing the core mechanic.
so now you got both sides pissed because killers didnt get survivors to be nerfed hard enough to win every game
survivors are pissed becaus the promise they made 9 months ago was left discarded even though they easily could let the anti-slug feature in. this wouldnt have done any buffs to "bully squads" while combating against killers who excessively slug over and over to multiple people when they really dont need to. -
@Vtech said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046863#Comment_4046863
Ironic considering MMR means nothing vs Getting Matches as fast as possible which is how Match Making actually works.
I know in THEORY I shouldn't get matched up against Epidemy or end up on the same team as n00b3, and yet I have.It still has a mmr system even if its extremely flawed.
The only thing it does is "win = mmr up / Loss = mmr down"
Which is why you still see alot of beginners in higher brackets because they either use the meta, rat themselves for a win or use the most cheapest tactics (noed/genrush) to win.
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I love how killer mains always gravitate to "but swf is more problematic" or "but they still suck"
Imagine saying that ######### as an arguement against nerfing hyperfocus or toolboxes, you wouldnt take it seriously.
"But nurse exists, thats why this is needed"
Im sure thats such a compelling arguement to point out another problem when the core problem is because soloq is so weak.
But im sure nerfing swfs will make soloq playable
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@[Deleted User] said:
Only the soloq guys who bought the game and simply want to play survivor are left out. Simply let me communicate with my teammates in the match, which SWF can do right now anyway... Are the devs scared of making the game unbalanced? Because the game is already unbalanced. Even Identity V and your own mobile game (before it was shut down) had communication. It's not a huge demand; it's a basic multiplayer feature.
Killer mains would never allow it.
Genuinely the only reason it hasnt been added is because it would give them a slight challenge on playing killer, which they never want anyway.
They easily could add kindred and bond,
Buff older killers to compensate with bunch of haste.
But they never will.
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@The_NinjaGuy said:
Good afternoon,
Is the team at BHVR working on a Nintendo Switch 2 version of DBD. The console is powerful enough to handle a better version of the game, and it desperately needs it. I can't handle 15 fps and 720 much longer.
Thank youI really dont like how they are so held back trying to optimise that console
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At most oblivious perks and aura perks for killers got buffed.
Distortion got killed, didnt recover since no one would want to chase and then randomly have no aura, no player wants that and you cant control when or how to use it.
Stealth isnt completely dead, just mostly unviable since alot of killers have basekit tracking in their kick (vecna dnd) or run nowhere to hide, bbq or lethal.
It makes no sense to run iron will when sb is just a better perk.
It makes no sense to stealth if your teammates suck.
Even when i was genrushing with peak distortion, it rarely ever got triggered.
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@Jay_K said:
Now bare with me I will explain.
You see posts on this forum every day with someone saying "nerf this" or "Buff that" and most of the time you see it and think Why…just why does that perk need a nerf or why does that killer need a buff.
The issue is no matter how hard we all try we do have a preferred side and deep down we want that side to be stronger
Now don't get me wrong I'm the same. I'm a killer main thru and thru and as much as I try and stay neutral there will always be a bit of bias in my opinion.
For this reason the wider community shouldn't overly be listened to when it comes to the balance of the game.
Sure there are some instances where its so obviously broken that even a Civ 5 player can tell and these of course need to be seen by the devs but for the most part the posts you see about this or that perk or this or that killer being to strong/to weak come from someone who has just lost to it or doesn't understand the counter play.
Now there is a smaller part of the community that have been playing this game since day dot and have probably a better understanding of what balance is than the devs themselves and these are the players that really need to be listened to and approached for balancing issues.
So i propose this to the Devs. You had your consultants which were real players with real understanding of the game (although not even sure if this still a thing) you should be looking to them for more help. Take the suggestions from the wider community and have them vetted to filter out all the posts that are not needed leaving just real balancing issues left to sort then focus on those issues to improve the game.
And a note to the wider community. I don't mean any insult by this post and i still think you should be posting with genuine balance issues or game issues but I ask that before you take to the forums to post about a a perk that needs nerfing or that survivors need a buff you actually take a moment to test and see if it truly is an issue or if you are just having a gut reaction to a bad game or a couple of bad games.Well i think its too late for that.
They probably are already constantly doing 2v8 since thats what most people prefer.
But the casual survivor playing 1v4?, yeah, never happening, they had their chance when fnaf came out.
Fumble'd the tunneling and slugging changes, seriously, no one with a casual mindset would play survivor after getting tunneled and slugged over and over and over.