Orion
Orion
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This has nothing to do with which side gets more or fewer nerfs. The issue is that a lot of the devs' reasoning for nerfing killer perks can be applied to survivor perks, yet the survivor perks aren't nerfed.
If you want an old example, DS was buffed to the current 5 seconds because Enduring affected it when it was just 3 seconds and made the stun too short. Enduring was later nerfed to only affect pallet stuns because the devs (rightfully) realized it was impossible to make a stun perk that wasn't too powerful without Enduring, but also wasn't worthless with Enduring. However, DS remained at 5 seconds, despite the devs outright stating that 5 seconds was too much when the killer didn't have Enduring and using that as a justification for nerfing Enduring.
Another example, NOED. It used to last forever, so survivors just GTFO while the killer sometimes got one extra kill. When survivors complained about the perk, it was nerfed to only last 2 minutes. However, that still wasn't enough, because it was "boring" to hide and wait out NOED, so the devs changed it again to become the only hex perk whose activation can be prevented outright. Survivors still complain because they don't want to cleanse totems, but I hope the devs are done nerfing it.
Now, I doubt the devs are intentionally biased toward survivors, but it's hard to look at their decisions without thinking that they're at least a little biased toward survivors.
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@PyroGL said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1658800#Comment_1658800
Funny, I thought I was being an adult by not skirting my responsibilities as a husband, parent, homeowner, and full time employee, and not "no-lifing" DBD every night. I can agree that dealing with emotions in a healthy way is a good thing. I don't think my original post implied anything serious about my mental state, just my disgust in how the game has become too much of a chore (for me).
I was referring to "being an adult" regarding how adults deal with emotions, not in a "this is all that's required to be an adult" way.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1658727#Comment_1658727
Yeah but no game will be perfect right off the bat.
True, but they practically have a blueprint for success, yet they fail.
@PlayerLUE said:
I never thought i would read that to know if a game is better than other you should rely on it's financial success.
We can only get better from here on... mmm... right?
What other metric would you use, then? I prefer to use things like player count (which correlates to financial success in a pay-to-play game) to determine whether people like to play a game because it seems objective. If people like it, they will continue to play it. If they don't, they won't.
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@jackal470 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1658815#Comment_1658815
Good Doctor didn't know you had a P.H.D....I don't care about ur psychological advice. I was talking to you about the rift but sure you care about what you want and I'll live my life. My life is the best it's ever been so hmm I'm doing something right for myself
It's not advice, just an objective fact that I felt was relevant since you brought up the subject. There's no need to get upset.
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@jackal470 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1658800#Comment_1658800
What you said was it's not meant for everyone to finish(rift) as far as feelings I was talking about space coconut's analogy...I don't care about feelings, that's just me and my life experience. Let alone no video game ever hurt me like the real life problems men face in this society
I also didn't say that, I just said people didn't have to do them.
Since you claim not to care about feelings, here's a fact: not caring about feelings is bad for you, both physically and psychologically, as well as in your daily life.
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@jackal470 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657832#Comment_1657832
Hey dude love the video's you do but gotta throw this out there, "feelings are overrated"....I completely agree with Orion, this is an adult game, no children here to care about there feelings
That's not what I said, at all. Being an adult means being able to deal with your emotions, not to suppress them. Being taught to repress emotions instead of learning to deal with them is why men have such a high suicide rate.
@SpaceCoconut said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657663#Comment_1657663
You should read the rest of his post.
Also, think about this whenever you make this comment. It's a rough analogy, but I'm focusing on the feelings of the people involved more than the technicalities of it.
Ice cream truck parks at the park and kids run to get ice cream.
The kids who take the longest to get to the truck may miss out on ice cream because the truck will leave before they get there.
So the kids ask for help from the ice cream truck driver to park a little closer so they can have ice cream too.
Of course you as an adult can tell them that they don't need ice cream, completely ignoring the feelings that these kids had of wanting ice cream and lamenting the distance they had to travel to get it.
Try to consider the player's feelings about why they're posting and then respond.
You're right. I was dismissive and I apologize.
My point, which was later properly worded by @Todgeweiht, is that if the rifts are making some people miserable, then they need to stop doing them, because it's clearly negatively affecting their mental health. At the same time, they need to push for changes to the rifts that can make them better for everyone, but first and foremost they need to take care of themselves.
Games are supposed to be fun. If you're not having fun, it's important that you stop and find something else to play, or it could very easily grow into an addiction.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657668#Comment_1657668
With F13 and everything after people always say “oh well back to DBD”.
With DBD there wasn’t really anything to go back to.
Anything that comes out now gets compared to DBD but lets not forget this game has had 4 years of balance to get to where it is. If a game came out the all the issues 2016 DBD had now people would not wait around for it to improve they’d just forget about it and go back to DBD.
Exactly, so other developers literally have a list of what to do and not to do with their games by simply looking at DbD's example. It's like getting 4 years of balance and development, but someone else paid for and tested it.
So the question still arises: why did those other games fail, when they could very easily see what players like and don't like by using DbD as a basis?
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@Aldofer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657716#Comment_1657716
you really hate that game are you? Saying it was bad when it really wasn't, it wasn't the best game ever but saying it was bad is being dishonest.
To return to the topic, Dbd was not the bestgame of it's genre, but now it's the only one that has not been left to die and have a good playerbase simple as that and if you add the licensing (wich by the way have make the game what it is, that's why the dev won't stop doing dlc) well they just here to stay.
And while dbd as some quality that most of asymmetrical game can only dream to have, the semi-monopoly they have is hurting the game in the long run, just look at steam before epic game store, almost dead competition and the few competitor that could be serious were far behind (even you gog), so they were staying on what they acquired. But then epic came and boom, big update that the community where asking for years and better policy for costumers and developers (and a new game + big update for l4d). Dbd need a big competition so it can improve, or at least improve at a better rate (if you think the game is ""improving"" since everyone disagree on that).
Right now the dev will stay on what works now, and since they are the only one who work in the genre, well they will do the vicious cycle of questionable decision couple with overprice cosmetics.
And don't get me wrong they do good stuff, but focusing the balance problem they have for years + the ""100"" (exaggerate) of bugs, on a small portion of team just because they have ""more employees now"" is stupid , especially with all that """manpower""" the could do a big health update with ton of cosmetic to celebrate the update everyone wants.
SO in short yes Dbd need better competition, done by a big company to challenge and make them surpass them self, it's better for everyone really and remember, for those who want to see dbd die, the only thing that can kill dbd is behavior no one else. And i don't think they will.
I don't care about the game one way or another. That's just what I heard from people who played it and it is supported by the fact that it died almost immediately, long before the lawsuit.
@SpaceCoconut said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656424#Comment_1656424
I'll try and help you understand.
There are many games (the ones you listed) that have TRIED to compete with DbD. Or at least tried to enter the genre.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656431#Comment_1656431
This is the case Orion brings up, but the game's playerbase died out for various reasons and are no longer in active development.
This means that those games have failed to enter the genre.
The OP's last sentence points out the main issue they're bringing to light.
"This game could be so much better if there was actual competition."
Currently, DbD has no active competition.
Competition drives further innovation and effort to do new things that invigorate the playerbase with passion and urgency.
Complacency breeds contempt.
It would only improve the game if the devs weren't so seemingly complacent in their success.
The OP wishes for a real competitor to come in and stick around long enough to influence the DbD devs to improve themselves and the game.
This is the case Orion brings up, but the game's playerbase died out for various reasons and are no longer in active development.
And why do you think DbD's playerbase hasn't died out, if it's not related to the fact that DbD is just the better overall game?
@Agent_Grey6008 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657716#Comment_1657716
I hear your argument and I understand your point. But for some reason it feels like that would be comparing the complexity of checkers with the complexity of chess. Sure dbd may have not had a tutorial for a good while but you could just fire up a YouTube video or just play with it for a few hours and understand the gist of the gameplay loop.
From a survivor perspective what more can you do outside of vault Windows drop pallets hide in lockers and work gen's?
But like I said in my previous posts before, that the combat system in f13 alone was a shining light. Having the option to confront the killer instead of always having to run or hide really added tension. To use your own quote f13 is a simple game very similar to dbd but once you invest in it you learn and begin to understand the complexity behind it, you actually start to enjoy and understand what they were trying to accomplish. But again to riterate most players today want something that's pick up and play not something that's moderately or heavily complex. (Which makes me understand why potatoe survivors are so infuriating. A game this simple shouldn't rest in so many bad plays being made) 🤭
And for what it's worth dbd2 or (insert asymmetrical horror game name) moving forward needs to copy Chris Darrils and stormwind games Remothered: Tormented Fathers. A multi player 5 to 8 vs 1 game using that engine would blow dbd outta the water.
When games started out, they were all "pick up and play" - Pac-Man, Space Invaders, Prince of Persia, and so on - and they were quite successful. Making a complex game for its own sake inevitably results in failure.
Gaming is a hobby, whereas trying to wrap your head around something that's extremely complex from the start feels like work. Nobody wants their hobby to feel like work.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1658571#Comment_1658571
Why dont you care about inballanced stuff? Ballance is a big part of probably everyones fun in the game, no matter on which side you play. You are either new to the game or one of the really rare persons who enjoy getting tunneled out of the game super quick. No matter what it is, why should then you opinion berelevant on a topic like this? You dont care anyway, so... ?
Also in general, you arguement that i should stop playing the game because i dont like Mori is just silly, but i am not in the mood to explain you why i dont leave my wife just because she has 1-2 flaws (yet i have the right to tell her and hope she makes it better soon)
Yes, Moris are used by toxic players. Unfortunatly, more then half of my games i face are appently against Moris. Its so easy to get Moris, in almost every 2nd bloodweb i get a green or red one.
I dont care if survivors have "equivalent" options, its about moris. But so that i have said it: NO there are not any. A key is not equivalent, neither is any perk or survivor offering.
"The problem isnt moris but the people" ... sooo you suggestion is what? Change the poeple and leave Moris?
The problem is that people have no patience and expect everything to be done the second they rage about it.
4 YEARS is all what i say.
Moris were already nerfed during those 4 years, as someone else pointed out. Regardless, wait for the results of the survey. If the majority agrees with you, the devs will probably nerf them again.
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That is quite an interesting combo. Flashlights are indeed your best bet, maybe with an Exhaustion perk like Sprint Burst ready to go just in case. Alternatively, since she can't see who actually unhooked, use Kindred and go in pairs.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657310#Comment_1657310
Blight was a survivor (of sorts). It stands to reason that some of the survivors might go insane and start killing their fellows.
No, he was corrupted before coming into the Fog, like (almost) every other killer. No killer so far has been an ex-survivor who became corrupted post-abduction.
The reason why survivors can't be corrupted (lore-wise) is quite simple: the Entity needs survivors who won't give up on trying to escape to go up against killers who won't stop trying to kill them. Survivors are taken because they can't be corrupted, can't be convinced to surrender or "defect" to the other side, so they'll just keep playing the trials and feeding the Entity.
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To everyone saying "that's just, like, your therapist, man", OP's point, as I understood it, is that others may unknowingly be in a similar situation and that this thread is for those people. They're not trying to project their therapist's assessment onto everyone.
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I think it's great that you recognized a game can have a negative impact on your mental health and took steps to address it. Multiplayer games can be mentally exhausting, even if they're just PvE. Throw PvP and/or ######### into the mix and it can have serious negative consequences.
Take care of your mental health and ignore all the people who say it's "just a game".
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657472#Comment_1657472
The healing speed cap was just people misinterpreting the description of We'll Make It, which was nerfed to not stack with itself for insane healing speeds from one perk. This description has since been changed. If you use we'll make it, botany knowledge, desperate measures, etc. together you will notice the difference from just we'll make it. There are also plenty of "max healing speed" videos out there that once again prove the myth wrong.
I just confirmed with my admin friend that the Haste bonuses from Hope and Blood Pact do not stack, meaning the Haste bonus from those is capped. They also don't refresh each other's timers. Just mentioning since you wanted to know a buff that was capped.
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@BioX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1658408#Comment_1658408
"Why do survivors attempt unhook right before being unhooked?"
Not that difficult and clearly shows what the thread is about.
I already have people commenting about self-unhooking without reaching the second phase, so I'm not confident in your hypothesis.
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@BioX said:
killers hate them?
Seriously what is with these clickbait titles, just mention the damn subject matter in the title gawd.
and why? idk maybe cobe is fun? maybe they feel the survivor took too long to reach them? heck idk.
Because "Why do survivors try to unhook themselves just before being rescued even though the unhooker is not hook farming and the killer is far away, thereby pushing themselves into the second hook phase?" is too long a title, and shortening it to just "Why do survivors try to unhook themselves" guarantees people who only read the title and not the OP will be replying.
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@Todgeweiht said:
Jesus christ, this is worrying. From the looks of your post this game is having a severe psychological impact, I beg you to stop playing it, its not good.
You guys need to learn when to stop before it becomes an addiction.
And that was my (extremely poorly worded) point.
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@MojoTheFabulous said:
If people are putting themselves into struggle phase when them being rescued would avoid that I say ######### 'em. They're not worth it.
Even if they're only chased for 10 seconds after that, that's still a little bit of gen rush time everyone else gets. Never underestimate the value of a meat shield.
@MeltingPenguins said:
Also not running any perks that let's them see the other survivors aura (would take away that precious DS slot) and heavens forbid they actually look around...
While on the hook, you see every survivor's aura automatically. It's a game mechanic.
@[Deleted User] said:
Because the Claudette hiding 3m away is doing nothing and the Killer left almost 40s ago and she's still afraid. I probably have a higher chance of escaping via Kobe than I do in the hands of a teammate.
You and I both know that makes no sense.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657407#Comment_1657407
"They" can't see the game's code, it's a wiki, i can go edit the page right now to say whatever i want.
I've had an admin friend of mine show me the game's code because they wanted help understanding it, and there are guides on how to read the actual game's code, but you believe what you want.
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@MrDardon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657777#Comment_1657777
Might be, but observing Sarcasm from a Text is hard because you don't know if People are sarcastic or not.
Indeed. I guess I'm mostly hoping that it was sarcasm.
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@MrDardon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657772#Comment_1657772
Maybe try and face multiple Objects after another and see how fun it is. I might be overreacting but in that case I won't just swallow it. It makes me insane seeing how People enjoy being toxic.
And saying "I want to learn chases" is some other level lie. It's the same as those People who say "I drop Haddonfield because I like the Map" yeah sure dude.
Pretty sure ClickyClicky was being sarcastic.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657722#Comment_1657722
I don't have an account and I don't know the first thing about proper wiki formatting and such.
You can create one and learn, or you can just leave comments on talk pages pointing out problems.
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@lowiq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657740#Comment_1657740
Most people who 4% usually don't do it at <20 seconds before struggle in my experience.
In my experience, they do. That's the problem.
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@lowiq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657721#Comment_1657721
Then just go next.
People attempt it because there is no personal penalty for doing it since they are getting unhooked anyways. And if they do get it, then they feel temporary satisfaction in being lucky.
It is annoying if you are rescuing though. Although it's better than someone waiting for you to run over to kill themselves on hook -- that imo is being an #########.
The penalty is being on death hook, which these survivors often get to because they tried to self-unhook.
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@MadLordJack said:
If healing couldn't go above 100%, group healing would negate every and all healing perks
The myth was about individual healing speed, not combined healing speed.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657653#Comment_1657653
I understand that, but it's still spreading false information, intentional or otherwise.
Which people like you can help to correct, but choose not to.
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@lowiq said:
Fastest way to get a stealthy survivor to unhook you is to attempt to Kobe.
It's definitely the fastest way to get me to leave you on the hook. I'm not interfering with your suicide attempt.
@ImBrakingBike said:
Not sure really but maybe it has something to do with the "Not Today" Steam achievement. If the killer is far away and you know there's someone near you to help you in case you fail it's worth a try.
Except they're just ######### themselves over because they get pushed to death hook.
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@Agent_Grey6008 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657668#Comment_1657668
And again I feel this is due to the lack of an effective tutorial combined with a gameplay loop that was more in depth than what the average or casual player is willing to invest in nowadays. My friends/family till this day still have the quality vs quantity debate when it comes to dbd and f13. But to be fair with the proposed and recent graphical updates to dbd they will be closing that gap within a year.
DbD didn't have a tutorial for years and did quite well. As for the "it's too complicated for casuals" argument, many successful games are complex. Arguably, the most successful games are those that are simple when you first start playing them, but require a lot of understanding to master all its mechanics.
F13th failed because it was a bad game that people did not enjoy playing. Whatever the reason, it all boils down to that one, simple fact.
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@malatruse said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657663#Comment_1657663
I mean....I don't have to play the game at all. I play because it's fun. I liked doing the rifts because they were fun.
Plus, though I personally don't spend AC up front, I'm sure a lot of people do, and feel obligated to finish it for that reason.
If the rifts are no longer fun, then you stop doing them, the same way you stop playing a boring game.
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@ClickyClicky said:
F13 got cut short with a lawsuit.
Re: Resistance was sent to die by Capcom, they never intended for it to be a longterm thing.
The others were indie games. Sure DBD was too originally but it wasn’t going up against anything else at the time.
The genre is still too niche for bigger publishers to take notice.
So yeah expect it to stay this way for a while.
F13th's lawsuit came after the game was already on its last legs. F13th failed because most people did not enjoy it.
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You guys do know you don't have to do the rifts, right?
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657630#Comment_1657630
Yes, but they listed it as an undocumented buff, and described it as such. I believe the perk description changes are accurate, but the effect changes are not. They should really change it to something like "perk description updated".
They list it as such because that's what the description indicated. It's unreasonable to expect them to test every single perk, item, and add-on combination to see if they perform as advertised, especially since if it doesn't, it's most likely a bug.
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From what I understand, the wiki was simply going off of what the perk description says. If you want to blame someone for this gaffe, blame whoever wrote it. Also, the 4.0.2 thing is because the offending line was removed from the perk.
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I've seen the opposite with NOED: all the totems had been cleansed, yet NOED was still active. It had never happened before and hasn't happened since, which makes me think it's either an extremely rare bug, or the result of someone cheating.
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@Tactless_Ninja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657553#Comment_1657553
Codes are sometimes case sensitive.
Yes, but not these (unless they changed it). Also, like I said, the game clearly recognizes the code is real, it's just not valid for that platform.
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@Tactless_Ninja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657502#Comment_1657502
Try all lowercase? It doesn't work in caps.
The issue isn't the code, it's the platform. The game clearly recognizes the code is legit.
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@jpanda7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657514#Comment_1657514
It makes the game no fun for survivor I'm sure when and if you play survivor you don't want the killer to sit and stare at you till your dead or just run a circle around you it's lame. If killers want to camp and tunnel then there should be infinite ds with no other survivor nerfs
I'm a survivor main and I honestly don't give a #########, so long as my teammates take advantage of it.
Just because it's no fun for you doesn't mean you should get massive buffs or that killers should be punished. My advice? Play stealthily so you don't get hooked and rush gens.
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@jpanda7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657454#Comment_1657454
Anyone can play how they like but playing like that makes the game no fun
...for you. It makes the game no fun for you. If we were to remove everything that makes the game "no fun" for everyone, we'd end up with no game.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657472#Comment_1657472
The healing speed cap was just people misinterpreting the description of We'll Make It, which was nerfed to not stack with itself for insane healing speeds from one perk. This description has since been changed. If you use we'll make it, botany knowledge, desperate measures, etc. together you will notice the difference from just we'll make it. There are also plenty of "max healing speed" videos out there that once again prove the myth wrong.
Learn something new every day.
I think one of the devs confirmed the Haste bonus from non-Exhaustion survivor perks is capped at 7%.
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657465#Comment_1657465
That is a myth. Healing speed has been proven time and again to not be capped at 100%.
How was that proven?
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657439#Comment_1657439
Okay but which buffs are capped? Surely you know at least one example.
If I'm not mistaken, healing speed is capped at +100% for each individual healer (that part is very important).
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@Yung_Slug said:
What are the caps? I was not aware of the caps to speed buffs.
Depends on the type of buff. Even I don't know them by heart.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I noticed that sometimes if I lunge and just hold the attack, if the player finished their Deadhard before my lunge finishes, they still get hit.
That's how it's supposed to work.
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@maderr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657405#Comment_1657405
You are right, i don't have any data but i'm playing a lot in SoloQ and i see how players behave. DC and suicide are really rare. I don't say it's 1% but it's between 5/10%, not more.
Killer that give a free escape to the survivors or to the last one are really really rare in red ranks.
Speaking from EU servers.
You have personal anecdotes, just like I do. Data is not as simple as "this is what I see".
I get free escapes quite regularly, much to my SWF teammate's chagrin. I'd wager it's about the same rate as DCing, or a little less.
Also from EU servers.
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@Tactless_Ninja said:
The exhaustion appears but does nothing. Also got hit mid animation one time which is supposed to be impossible?
Maybe your timing is off because of the hit validation?
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Define "doesn't work". Worked just fine for me when I used it.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657387#Comment_1657387
You really think it won't get changed?
In my opinion at this point it's inevitable. So it's just picking which hex perk gets changed. I'd just rather keep Undying as it is so maybe I can have fun with Devour or Lullaby once in a while and not feel screwed if the survivors spawn on the totem and it's cleansed in the first 30 seconds as I would get another chance with it.
I'm hoping the devs don't cater to survivors who refuse to cleanse totems but also want their effects to be negligible.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657400#Comment_1657400
A wiki editable by anyone is not good proof.
Neither is eyeballing it. On the other hand, the wiki is reliable because they can actually see the game's code, and what I know of programming tells me you're wrong, because it makes no sense to have the game calculate each killer's movement speed when you can just save it as a constant.
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@maderr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657346#Comment_1657346
I assume you did some statistics at school.
One rule in statistics is that if the number of the population is big enough, all rare occurations (events) are negligible...
As the study is during 1 month, the population is really, really huge, so we can assume that DC/Suicide on hooks and free escape are negligible, especially in red ranks. DC is like 1 game out of 15/20, suicide on hook same.
Yes, studying physics you need to know statistics.
You don't have any data regarding the number of DCs, suicides, AFK killers, and free escapes/kills, so you can't say whether or not they're negligible. I see at least one DC every 5 trials, for example, but that may or may not be representative of the whole.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Also: Different interactions have different amounts of charges. Gens have 80 (obviously), while health states have 16.
I'm not actually sure if totems have a charge system associated with them? I'd have to assume they have 14 charges if they do, since it takes 14 seconds at base to cleanse.
All interactions that contain a progress bar are measured in charges.