Orion
Orion
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657368#Comment_1657368
Got any proof? I have seen streamers test it before and it seems clear that it is additive.
It is additive, just not in the way you think.
The only evidence I can offer is the wiki. The numbers are too close to see in a recording.
https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Movement_Speeds -
@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657360#Comment_1657360
Third seal does require tokens. It doesn't do anything until you get tokens i.e. hit a survivor, when it's cleansed you lose those tokens. Hence why it's not overpowered or unfair with Undying.
NOED is a weird one. Not many people will say NOED is a fair perk. But hey it doesn't activate until the end of the trial at least. You can cleanse the totems early and not feel the effects of it, unlike Ruin where you'll be feeling the effects until all totems are gone or you find the right order. In fact it's very likely that Undying would be gone long before NOED ever comes onto the scene, unlike Ruin.
Yes just never let go of gens, why hadn't anyone thought of that. Genius strategy I'm sure that will pay off for most survivors.
Ruin is the problem in the Undying/Ruin combo. That's what we're debating here. Everyone else is saying nerf Undying to fix this, I'm saying change Ruin and keep Undying.
That's if the combo gets changed but at this point I would say it's almost guaranteed. If how Ruin works is causing the problems then yes it does need to be changed to operate like other hex perks, or something new even.
In my trials, if I can't find Ruin after checking 2-3 totem spots, I just stay on gens. It works most of the time, taking into account trials where Ruin is eventually found by someone else.
There is no problem with the Ruin/Undying combo, it's just survivors wanting to avoid having to cleanse totems, as usual.
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@Dzeikor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656424#Comment_1656424
I dont think any competition is even close to dbd to be real competition.
That's the point, all those other games were/are terrible, which is why they failed. DbD's success has nothing to do with a supposed "lack of competition", it has to do with the fact that the competition sucks. That's like saying Usain Bolt only managed to set world records because he had nobody else running against him. He had plenty of competition, it's just that he was the best out of all of them.
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@Hoodied said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656424#Comment_1656424
Mind if I go for the assist here?
DbD has stayed alive long enough mainly towards how they advertise the game and well...balance
RE resistance’s failure came from poor balancing and poor advertisement (both mastermind’s and survivor’s were op, the game was stuck behind RE3)
Last Year didn’t get popular enough mainly from poor advertisement, same goes with Hide or Die
Friday the 13th was dbd’s biggest competitor, however its fall was from the lawsuit it got
Also isn’t a monopoly buying out your competitors? And isn’t a monopoly also illegal?
DbD has stayed alive long enough mainly towards how they advertise the game and well...balance
DbD had little advertising at the start. Hell, the original publisher believed in the project so little, they gave it a crap budget that forced the devs to cut corners they shouldn't have, which was actually the main source of most of the game's problems.
RE resistance’s failure came from poor balancing and poor advertisement (both mastermind’s and survivor’s were op, the game was stuck behind RE3)
Both sides can't be OP simultaneously. The game was also not poorly advertised, IMO. They made a big show of it in Japan.
Last Year didn’t get popular enough mainly from poor advertisement, same goes with Hide or Die
Really? I heard about those games nonstop up until they launched.
Friday the 13th was dbd’s biggest competitor, however its fall was from the lawsuit it got
As was already pointed out, F13th's lawsuit came after the game had already crashed and burned. You can check the player data yourself.
Also isn’t a monopoly buying out your competitors? And isn’t a monopoly also illegal?
What?
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657348#Comment_1657348
I understand that, but i'm saying it's additive. It's likely programmed like this:
- Base movement speed is 4 meters per second for everyone
- Killers with different movement speed have a "buff" that gives them extra percentage movement speed
- PWYF and other movement speeds stack additively
Thus a 110 kill with 1 stack of PYWF works as:
4 meters per second * ( 1 + (0.10 + 0.05) ) = 4.6 meters per second.
It's not, though. We say 110% and 115% because it's easier to visualize than saying the actual values in meters per second (especially since a large portion of the playerbase doesn't even use meters). However, they're programmed with specific values. It'd be ridiculously inefficient to have the game calculate a killer's movement speed when it's a constant.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657349#Comment_1657349
You don't have to nerf Ruin, just change it. Everything that's being proposed for Undying is a hard nerf. Go check out Otz awful recommendation which would kill the perk.
Ruin is the odd totem out. It doesn't operate like any other Hex. All the rest either gain strength with tokens, lose strength with tokens, or need to be cleansed before they activate.
Ruin is the odd totem out. It doesn't operate like any other Hex. All the rest either gain strength with tokens, lose strength with tokens, or need to be cleansed before they activate.
Third Seal and NOED say hi.
Moving on, just because Ruin doesn't work like some of the other hex perks doesn't mean it needs to be changed. Perks are allowed to operate differently, even if they share a common mechanic. Furthermore, Ruin is also the only perk whose effects you can be blissfully unaware of the entire trial. It literally won't do anything if you never let go of a generator.
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It happens to me at the start, which I just attributed to my ######### ISP.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656191#Comment_1656191
That i know is inaccurate. Buffs like that are relative to what the 100% case is.
Yes, and a slow killer's speed is 4.4 meters per second, or 115% of a survivors' base running speed. The 5% bonus is applied to 4.4 meters per second. Why would the bonus be based on the survivors' running speed?
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@maderr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657309#Comment_1657309
Well it does. If DBD was balanced, most of the games should end up being 2K/2E.
That's not an average, that's a median. It also doesn't take into account nuances like players DCing, giving up, or taking pity on the other side.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657317#Comment_1657317
Well it feels alot longer I'm not sure why lol, are you sure about that?
Yes. The wiki says that's when it was, and I know it was because of the pandemic, so it had to have been this year.
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I don't hate the Doctor per se, even though I'm a stealth player. My main issue is the fact that his power, like Legion's, provokes an effect that you counter by holding M1 for several seconds while preventing you from doing anything else. That's not terribly exciting.
I don't go up against a Doctor and think "Wow, this is going to be hard", I think "Wow, this is going to be boring".
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657292#Comment_1657292
Right lol, I know people used to complain about Sabo on the event hooks and they changed it to where you couldn't but with the new Sabo changes you could literally bring the old events back and update them , I had so much more fun back when you played offerings to spawn gens and hooks in along with double bloodpoints till the event ends , can anyone name the last time we had a double bloodpoints event? I don't even remember it feels like it's been over a year
can anyone name the last time we had a double bloodpoints event?
This year, in March and April.
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Nope. Survivors are food, and when they become lifeless husks they get thrown into the Entity's trash can (the Void).
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@maderr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657271#Comment_1657271
Kill rate was lower (but still acceptable) during the clown update. The game was way more balanced.
There are many other factors to take into account besides the average kill rate. You can't look at one stat and say that it determines the entire game's balance.
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@maderr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656786#Comment_1656786
If you call "killers have a 75% kill rate" balanced then ok but we clearly don't have the same definition of a "balanced game" then.
That's not what she said, she said it was in the best state since release.
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@Primalux135 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1657229#Comment_1657229
Yeah as usual the common meta perks.
Maybe they're taking advantage of the notification bubble and sneaking away? With generators and hooks, it can actually block both killers and survivors from sight.
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@Primalux135 said:
######### is happening with scratchmarks? Suddenly it disappears and surv are miles away.Same happens with a gen! Gen pop in my face but no survivor there
Did you check their perks? Right now I've been experimenting with Poised and Sprint Burst to finish a gen and GTFO without a trace.
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@Judicar said:
Why else do you think they pushed for crossplay? Its player numbers have been declining for over a year now - whether it be because of boredom or this crap playerbase (SWF tryhards, campers/tunnlers) it's been losing people for a while now. Crossplay will definittely extend its life for some time but unless they really overhaul some stuff eventually even crossplay won't do crap.
The players pushed for crossplay, not the devs. Hell, the devs even said they had no plans for it when asked about it.
You can also check the Steam numbers to see that the player numbers have not been declining - quite the opposite, in fact. Of course, interpreting the data requires that you also know about events, chapter releases, etc., so you can compare player numbers during what you might call "normal" times.
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@Godot said:
Wait, why is this thread from January revived?
Oh, well. No, Dead by Daylight is not dying. And it won't ever die.
Trust me.
And it won't ever die.
All games die, eventually. DbD is no exception. Might take a decade or more, but it will inevitably die.
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No, they just annoy me. DCers need to be placed in a queue of their own so they can all not play the game together.
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@Zaitsev said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656551#Comment_1656551
F13 was a far superior experience balance wise.
Wasn't Jason essentially a piñata if all the not-survivors ganged up on him and constantly stun-locked him?
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@ToxicMyers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656431#Comment_1656431
I mean F13 didn't suck it just got crapped on by a lawsuit
That's not what I heard from people who played it. The stats don't indicate that either, since the game had a weak launch (compared to DbD, the game it was supposed to "kill") and the player count quickly tanked.
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@Xbob42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656443#Comment_1656443
Are you implying it's because they're lower quality? Because I personally think RE Resistance is a better game, but it lacks any kind of support because for some reason it's tied to a single-player game purchase and shows up in your library after purchasing RE3 without any sort of notification at all.
Yes, I am. In fact, I'm outright saying it. Good games (as in, games people enjoy playing) don't fail, they become financial successes.
DbD succeeded. Others failed. DbD is therefore the better game.
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@Zaitsev said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656424#Comment_1656424
Yeah, not ONE of those games reached any kind of success. You and I both know F13, Last Year and RE Resistance were no real competition
Yeah, not ONE of those games reached any kind of success.
And why do you think that is?
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There's been plenty of asymmetrical horror multiplayer games before and after DbD was released. The problem is that they all sucked (compared to DbD) and failed to retain players, so they died out.
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656165#Comment_1656165
ok makes sense, I misread "buffs" to "debuffs" since that was the topic of discussion.
is there an official statement anywhere regarding this debuff stacking behaviour?
Yes, McLean confirmed it. The exact quote (recovered from the wiki, because I'm not gonna search the forum) was:
"The secret in the sauce is that positive action speed modifiers are added together before being applied, whereas negative action speed modifiers are applied sequentially. Let's say you have Botany Knowledge (+33%) and Resilience (+9%), but you're Mangled (-20%) and using Self Care (-50%). Charges per second will be (1+0.33+0.09)(1-0.2)(1-0.5) = 0.568. Healing takes 16 charges, so it'll take 16 / 0.568 = 28.16 seconds to heal." - Louis McLean
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- Swing the ban hammer around a little more freely, to get rid of toxic players.
- Improve the reporting system.
- Balance around the top players.
- Change the rank system so killers would need to kill and survivors would need to survive in order to pip. Without a 3k, a killer would only be able to get a black pip at best, and the same for a survivor who didn't manage to escape.
- Ban smurf accounts.
- Prevent new players from being matched with more experienced players.
- Rework all second-chance perks. In particular, rework DS so it becomes an anti-tunnel perk.
- Add a totem counter to Small Game.
- Lock survivors' items after 30 seconds in a lobby. The killers can still change their loadouts to adapt to what the survivors are bringing.
- Either give all players a SWF indicator or split the queue between those who want to play with/against SWF and those who do not.
- Make regular DCers play together, regardless of skill level, so they don't ruin everyone else's trials.
That's off the top of my head.
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@Reinami said:
Pretty sure most % effects are additive based on 100%.
For example, PWYF increases movement speed by 5%, but it is assumed a killer moves at 115%, so the benefit is additive and makes you go at 120% speed. Or 115% speed if you are a 110 killer.
Not sure on slowdown effects though, but that would be weirdly inconsistent if it wasn't additive.
I forgot to tell you before, but your PWYF example s actually wrong. See, 115% and 110% are relative to the survivors' base sprinting speed, which is 4 m/s. A 5% boost to a 110% killer is actually a 5% boost applied to 4.4 m/s, which is equal to 4.62 m/s, or 115.5% (again, relative to the survivors' base sprinting speed).
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@Tactless_Ninja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656167#Comment_1656167
By timing, you mean when someone else is being chased? Because that's when I do it. Typically I never see a killer abandon chase to defend their totems.
And playing with Undying, I usually never see the aura thing unless they're blatantly trying to do it in front of me.
Either that or when the killer is very far away.
I usually risk it regardless, but I keep an eye out and have an escape plan in mind. I've only seen one killer abandon a chase to defend a totem. It was a Trapper who had trapped his Devour Hope, which is understandable.
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I don't run any of those perks and still manage to rid the map of totems. You don't need them if you know what you're doing and time it right.
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@Nobsyde said:
I don't understand what you mean with "debuff of the same type stacks multiplicatively" and "debuff from different sources stack additively".
If that was the case, 2 tokens of thana would apply a 16% debuff (4% * 4%), while obviously that's not the case.
Also, in your second example you multiply the debuffs from dying + thana, which are "two different sources", hence, by your definition, should stack additively.
..this being said, to my knowledge these debuffs should all stack additively, meaning that 3 tokens of thana (12%) + 6 tokens of dying (18%) should add up to a 30% slow down, not to a ≈28%
I said debuffs on one and buffs on the other, read it again. Debuffs do indeed stack multiplicatively, or else you'd be able to get -100% interaction speed in certain circumstances. However, because debuff perks that have tokens or something akin to tokens say that the total debuff is the number of tokens multiplied by the base debuff (for example, two injured survivors with Thanatophobia means 2 x 4% = 8% debuff), I didn't feel the need to explicitly mention that only debuffs from different perks stack multiplicatively. I've edited the OP to be more clear.
Also, 4% x 4% = 0.16%
Hoping @Gay Myers (Luzi) reads this thread and pins it...
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1655261#Comment_1655261
Thats what Im saying man thank you. Totems are still very easy to cleanse. Only 5 and they only take 5 seconds.
Maybe Ruin constantly respawning is a little oppressive but thats a Ruin issue because it works different to any other totems.
14 seconds, not 5.
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@Mokdroh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1655238#Comment_1655238
The more Survivors that try to bodyblock will obviously be going away from doing their objective, which benefits you. If there are 4 Survivors gathering around you while you carry one Survivor, then at least 1 of them can be Marked and downed by the other Killer. This is the same as a normal game. If the other Survivors are all Marked by the one who is carrying the Survivor, the other Killer will walk right through all those marked Survivors and can go straight for Marking and downing the unmarked one. You can only Mark 4 at the same time, so if there are more than 4 Survivors there, some of them are unmarked ones or those Marked by the other Killer, which means you will walk through them.
The bodyblocking doesn't have to last long, it just has to last long enough to prevent a hook. But let's put all those balance issues aside and put yourself in the killers' shoes for a minute: do you think it'd be fun to track down a survivor only to realize you're mechanically incapable of harming them in any way? Does that sound like something killers would actively pursue?
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@Mokdroh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1655212#Comment_1655212
Yes, there was indeed one detail I added in the message that I edited into the OP after, about the application of Endurance after losing the Mark to a new Survivor. I would imagine that if the Survivors gang up on a Killer like that, the other Killer would want to step in and cause damage, and I am also open to the possibility that like you say, 8 Survivors is too much against the Killers. I would just like them to start testing around, with what we are both saying, both 2 vs 8 and 2 vs 6 for that matter. I think it could be great fun.
But you literally gave them protection from the other killer via Endurance. How is the other killer supposed to "cause damage" when survivors are effectively healthy (in the sense that it'll take 2 hits to put them down) after ganging up on the one trying to hook someone?
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If he's a Fog Whisperer, that means he can contact the devs himself, right? So why these threads?
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@Mokdroh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1655105#Comment_1655105
I am unsure if you see what I write. I added that the Killers can only Mark up to 4 Survivors, so as to not have the situation where the full Survivor team is Marked by one and the same Killer and the other Killer being unable to stop any Survivors if they remain injured and Marked. Healing or getting off the hook cleanses the Mark. I also added that if reaching max limit of 4 Survivors Marked, attacking a new unmarked Survivor will swap that Survivor with one of your random Marked Survivors, and the previously marked Survivor will gain the Endurance status effect for 15 seconds applying towards the other Killer than the one who Marked them, so that the Killer's cannot down a Survivor together in sequence and the Survivors do not know which one will be affected. I can also add here that the rules would also be a -30% repair speed penalty to the Survivors and the maps would be bigger. I also think 3 exit gates should be there, so I will add that too now.
No, I didn't check your OP for edits before replying, but then again the latest edit was after that comment, so I don't know what you want from me.
It doesn't matter if you have a limit of 4 marked survivors because healthy survivors can still bodyblock both killers just fine. I'm not sure you realize just how easy it is to allow a survivor to wiggle free in your scenario.
It takes 16 seconds to wiggle free and 3 seconds for the killer to recover from a hit, during which time their speed is essentially zero. You would basically only need 4 survivors to bodyblock and the carried survivor gets off without any issue. Meanwhile, because they're being marked by that killer, the other can't do anything to stop them.
2v8 is unworkable due to the enormous number of survivors. Survivors are the ones who would need to be limited for this to work, not killers.
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Are there any mods around to pin this?
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@Mokdroh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1654875#Comment_1654875
If those Survivors try to gang up on one and the same Killer and are injured by that Killer, they will be Marked by that Killer and can be downed and hooked by them. If they are grouped away from the Killer they are Marked by, the other Killer can tip them off. I can add that I think it would be great to give the Killers a basic gesture of being able to point in a direction so as to communicate they should go there.
Yeah, the other killer can tip them off that 8 survivors are on 8 separate generators. Meanwhile, the killer who marked them can't stop the gen rush because they can only chase one survivor, and the other killer can't do anything either because he is mechanically prevented from doing anything.
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@Mokdroh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1654769#Comment_1654769
If surrounded by Survivors in this sense, I will try to calculate whether I should try to injure them while carrying or just drop the Survivor and try to injure more. If you manage to hit anyone nonetheless, you Mark them for yourself. All that keep coming are not doing generators and may end up injured. Killers will have to focus on tracking and hunting down Survivors they have Marked. The Survivors that are marked can rush generators as all Survivors can, and which is the Survivor objective, but if they want to stay Marked, that means they will remain injured, and you can track them more easily.
We both know tracking survivors is utterly pointless if you can't catch them. How is one killer supposed to go up against 8 injured survivors, all rushing different gens, while the other killer is just twiddling their thumbs? Because that's what would happen with your rules, 8 survivors would gang up against one killer while the other is powerless to stop them.
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@Mokdroh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1654740#Comment_1654740
They would probably end up being injured though, or simply downed. It is also vice versa, but Killer's cannot down the same Survivor together, but Marked Survivors will be linked to the Killer that marked them, and disconnected from the other Killer, so in the end, you can only be blocked by those you can down and hook. The others you will pass through in the Fog.
Which just makes it worse when survivors can bodyblock one killer long enough to waste the wiggle timer while also becoming immune to the other killer as they continue to rush gens.
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@Mokdroh said:
As I wrote, a Marked survivor will not be able to body block the other Killer that didn't mark them, just like that Killer cannot body block the Survivor marked by another Killer. The Survivor also has to remain injured if they want to stay Marked, as the Mark is only cleansed when healed from injured to healthy or getting off the hook.
And healthy survivors can bodyblock both killers.
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2v6 can be balanced. 2v8 will just be completely broken in the survivors' favor, especially with your rules that, for some bizarre reason, limit the killers even further while leaving the survivors' ability to genrush, bodyblock, etc., completely intact.
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Yeah, they should probably just ban everyone who cheats like that and be done with it. Then we can get map reworks that don't cater to cheaters.
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@White_Owl said:
Thanks. Hope they pin this so people can see this and stop using wrong math.
I hope so too, especially since the last one was buried.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1653688#Comment_1653688
Huh? I never talked about seconds. Did you mean to quote the person above me?
Yes.
@burt0r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1653688#Comment_1653688
Isn't the time to complete a gen 80 seconds?
80 * 0,2 = 16
80 * 0,25 = 20
But I am probably missing some aspects in form of buff or rebuff since I don't play this game regularly anymore.
Read my PSA thread for an in-depth explanation: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/195405/psa-how-to-properly-calculate-how-long-slowed-interactions-will-take#latest
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@BillyMain77 said:
I was unaware of this info and i will take it from your 16k post that you've been around the dbd block sort of speak lol
Thanks for the knowledge.
For the record, this has nothing to do with DbD knowledge, it's just math.
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@Reinami said:
Pretty sure most % effects are additive based on 100%.
For example, PWYF increases movement speed by 5%, but it is assumed a killer moves at 115%, so the benefit is additive and makes you go at 120% speed. Or 115% speed if you are a 110 killer.
Not sure on slowdown effects though, but that would be weirdly inconsistent if it wasn't additive.
Buffs are additive and usually capped, debuffs are multiplicative, providing a soft cap. If debuffs were additive you could reach -100% on certain interactions.
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@MandyTalk @Peanits can one of you please pin this thread, to help with the discussions around Thanatophobia and the PTB numbers?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1653677#Comment_1653677
I feel that 25% would be fine taking into account that you would only need to use one perk to get to that point
Freeing up perk slots for other things
20% - not 25% - is a difference of 20 seconds. If you think 20 seconds is OK, then the current PTB numbers are exactly what you want.
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I don't see how this would be balanced in the slightest.