NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@deadbyhitbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/635575#Comment_635575
"The stand still mindgame" lmao
Standing still has 0 strategical value. The only way to ever get anything out of doing it is through tricking your opponent with it. That's the entire basis behind a mindgame.
Just because something doesn't require much execution doesn't mean it doesn't take skill. Or do you think Chess is insanely easy?
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/635704#Comment_635704
I mean if I can stand still and you do some stupid stuff to try and counter it like vaulting right into my face, it is indeed a mind game. One you did to yourself. Almost every time a Spirit does this trick, there is an optimal choice, namely break LOS on the husk, walk a certain distance to hide your tracks, then break for the next loop. If she is standing still, you just forced her to chase normally as a 110 killer or phase walk, and since she has no LOS or scratch marks she might not find you right away. If she was phase walking, then you will make it to the next loop because she's going to mind game herself into thinking you stayed.
You act like it's so hard to beat when it's really not. You just have to not potato so hard you basically just give her the kill. I've kept many Spirits, good Spirits, occupied for a long time because they keep trying to pull this trick and I'm not going to potato right into them like every other survivor. A lot of times I even escape the chase entirely and she loses me.
And there are those variations I was talking about lol.
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Because you are allergic to success.
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"you fill 1 HP on the 'Recover' Bar, up to a maximum of 20% of the bar. (Which, I think, is 20HP? I think the bar is basically 100 HP?)"
it's not. Survivors have 2 HP and if you are in the dying state you've lost both of them.
recovering from the dying state requires 32 charges. Normally you recover 1 charge per second and other survivors heal you at 2 charges per second.
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@Locker_Monster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/635678#Comment_635678
I get what you're saying but I've seen a number of matches where someone goes 'Why did I down that person in one hit? Were they injured?' or 'Did I down that guy before?' etc.
Add to that that 2 Dwights could be in your match and 1 has No Mither but they LOOK the same..
I do think it's possible to get confused, is all I'm saying. No Mither needs something to make it worth taking.
No definitely not. If someone goes from Healthy to Downed I'm going to notice, solely by the UI.
It's really not hard to notice. And that's ignoring them being in the injured animation rather than the healthy one.
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@Locker_Monster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/635672#Comment_635672
Basically, they ARE injured, but the HUD does not reflect this injured state until they get hit once.
The Killer also never sees the Broken status effect.
It would take an alert Killer (or be the unlucky first find of the match), to realize the person is injured while the HUD says 'healthy'.
You don't have to be very alert to realize when a Survivor is randomly instant downed from healthy without you having done any setup first.
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@OGlilSPOOK20 said:
Adding 2 survivors will be a huge disappointment for half of the community.
Even though they added Legion... 4 killers in 1.
Yes and it was a Huge disappointment
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TLDR: Beating a Spirit comes down to pattern recognition.
Better Spirits will have more complex patterns which thus take longer to decipher.
Human psychology means that it will never be truly random unless they use a tool such as a coin to MAKE it random.
They won't use such a tool because they are doing the same thing as what you should be doing by attempting to decipher YOUR pattern.
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For example:
Lets say you've just dropped a pallet in front of a Spirit and she now appears to be standing still.
She is either:
A - Phase walking to the other side
or
B - Standing still for real
Technically there are variations for option A but for our purposes they don't matter.
Now you can either
A - Run away from the pallet
or
B - Vault the Pallet and run the other way
Preforming option A will avoid a hit if she's standing still because from that point the amount of time it takes to react to you running in order to phase walk and hit you is too long to actually catch up around a loop. Especially if there is a window to run to. Again this option has variations but they don't matter for our purposes.
However, if she was already phasing then she will likely reach you in time anyways.
Thing is, option B exists. If she immediately phases and runs around, but you vault just before she actually gets there then she won't have quite enough time to catch up to you when you leave in the opposite direction.
An important thing to note here is that by the time you make the decision to either run or vault the Spirit has already committed to an option. You could be fully viable and these options wouldn't be any different. No iron will is required for any of this.
Anyways, this specific interaction will happen a lot against a spirit. It's a common situation when facing one so it's not unreasonable for it to happen more than once.
The first time in a game when this happens it may very well be a true guessing game. Technically a Spirit is statistically more likely to chose one option over the other but I don't know which option off the top of my head and likely neither do you, so whatever fine it's a 50/50 and you can't improve those odds realistically.
But what about the 2nd time?
1 example isn't quite enough to build up a pattern with any reliability. But it IS data you can work with. A good spirit will try to be unpredictable, while a bad one won't think to. If anyone else has been chased you might be able to make an educated guess on if you are facing a good Spirit or not based off of chase time for those survivors. Also a higher rank obviously implies a better Killer. Either way you can use those ques to tell the difference.
Against a Bad spirit there is usually a simple formula that tends to work:
If their previous mindgame attempt worked they will do the same thing again. If it failed they will switch.
This doesn't hold in all cases but it should let you do better than random chase.
Now against a better Spirit this isn't quite enough. Some will mix it up immediately and others will wait and THEN mix it up. One thing to note though is that they will almost never do the same thing 3 times in a row unless you got hit on both of the previous attempts. Or in other words: If you are being predictable then they will continuously exploit it.
This leads to things like conditioning, where you deliberately act according to an obvious pattern in the early game (for example always running immediately) in order to break the pattern later for a free juke when you need it more. As a Spirit this can be caught by noting when an otherwise good Survivor is acting super predictable in 1 situation in particular and not others but even then it's hard to know when exactly they will break the pattern. A Spirit can do the same trick and will have the same signs when doing it.
In any case. Against a Good Spirit it will usually take about 3 instances to establish a pattern. You can get somewhere with just 2, but 3 is where you can actually make predictions with some real consistency as opposed to just slightly better than RNG. From there it is just a matter of applying the pattern and seeing if there are situations in which they will break the pattern. The more situations you see the more reliably you can dodge them.
That's actually why I think the Spirit leaving a trail when exiting phase would be a really important thing. Knowing exactly what the Spirit's play was makes it much easier to determine what the pattern is for any given Spirit. But even without that you still have situations like the Pallet one where you have all the data you need just by seeing where they exit.
Just pointing out btw. She will need to chase you a minimum of 4 times per game unless you get hook farmed or something. Which means even if she gets a hit all 3 times while you are still figuring out her pattern you still have enough time to do it and put it into action before you die.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/635505#Comment_635505
Stridor counters Iron Will and having a killer in the game who has counterplay based purely on lucky guesses not skill is not fun and leaves bad aftertaste.
Just because there is a guess doesn't mean there isn't skill. Everyone has biases in what they will do in any situation. So the skill is in figuring out the biases of the Spirit you are facing and then acting accordingly depending on the specific situation.
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What happens if I run Detectives Hunch AND Pharmacy
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Sword
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I seriously just think Fire up should be 5%.
4% is too low to be worth it
6% makes it outclass perks with a more focused effect (BS and Bamboozle in particular)
5% is the sweet spot
Also thanataphobia
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@Zertix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/635073#Comment_635073
Your argument is flawed.
I don't wanna sound like a broken record by repeating my self but spirit does not need to guess. Why would you guess if you have a lot of information about what the survivor is doing?
I am amazed by how many people here are convinced that spirit-survivor interaction is a mind game. IT IS NOT.
Then where is this Survivor guess coming from. A guessing game implies a correct guess. And which guess is correct is dependent on what the Spirit thinks you will guess. This leads to the recursive function that defines a mindgame.
You cannot have a guessing game like this on only 1 side.
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@MegMain98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/633810#Comment_633810
Nothing in this game takes skill except Huntress and Nurse (although it is more muscle memory).
Nothing on the survivor side takes skill.
Nothing on the killer side takes skill.
Doesn’t take skill to rev a chainsaw, or vomit, or stalk, or moonwalk, etc...
Point is that barely anything takes skill. This game requires little if any.
Precision is not the only kind of Skill.
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@Zertix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/634689#Comment_634689
No, this is not true.
If you are guessing as a spirit, you are doing it wrong. From the survivor perspective, it is like flipping a coin but the odds are not in your favor. From the spirit perspective, you don't need to guess at all. Just stand still for a few seconds and react to what the survivor is doing.
Spirit has many tools to track you down: grass moving, collision, breathing, grunting and scratch marks. The survivor on the other hand has zero information about the spirit.
I have been playing spirit a lot lately. The only time I need to guess is if the survivor vaulted a strong window and doubled back or not.
NO
That's not how that works
If something is a guessing game in this sense for one side then it MUST necessarily be a guessing game for the other side as well.
If the Survivor has to guess then the Spirit ALWAYS must guess, no matter how much information they have.
This is because during a mindgame the correct option for one side is based off of the other side's prediction of you.
The Survivor is trying to predict your next move and is acting based on it. (or your previous move in the case of fake phasing)
You as the Spirit are trying to predict what the Survivor's prediction of you will be in order to decide your next move.
Since the Survivor knows that is the case that means he needs to predict your prediction of his prediction and so on.
This is true for any and all mindgames. Since you are trying to predict their NEXT move that means you could straight up remove the invisibility aspect and STILL have mindgames sometimes (but not nearly as often).
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/634906#Comment_634906
The difference between chasing them forever and ever with vs. without the Trap is that without the Trap, the other Survivors can do the gens and let that person theoretically escape. Even with the Trap currently, the Survivor can theoretically keep the chase going such that they can have the others escape and then go through the Hatch. With OP's idea, that doesn't really work because doing two gens with the Trap on = immediate death, which means (worst-case scenario) the Hatch can't even spawn in time.
And as far as your idea, that is an issue because the Pig can easily just patrol the boxes non-stop knowing that the Survivor has to eventually be at one or more of them. The Trapped Survivor in question would basically have to be opposite the Pig at all times, which is just not reasonable when the Survivor has to eventually show up at one of four specific points and just hang there.
Honestly. What's FAR more problematic is when you have Solo's who don't care about letting you live and just complete another generator anyways.
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@NMCKE said:
Very interesting, but it would suck if you got Léry's. :(
Also, it would be cool if you got an indicator of where you're going to land.
You can still move in the air I'm pretty sure. Your landing spot wouldn't be predetermined.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/634796#Comment_634796
The thing is that it's possible to save the camped person under the right circumstances and with enough teamwork. If someone gets Trapped here, the Killer can absolutely force a kill, and ain't a damn thing that can be done about it.
It ain't that it's OP but rather that it takes the frustration people have with camping and takes away any answer to it, which is just really bad design IMO.
The whole strategy is to chase them until they die.
In theory you don't need a trap for this.
The method of saving them is different but it still exists, you just need to shake off the Killer.
Is that plausible? Eh, probably not. Is it possible? Absolutely.
And again there is option A.
Step 1: Find the Pig
Step 2: Search the box that is furthest from the Pig
Step 3: Repeat
Is it super consistent? No. Is it plausible? Yes.
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Like I'm not saying this is the best suggestion either. But guaranteeing a single Kill given enough time is not inherently OP.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/634783#Comment_634783
Well, that's kinda the problem. It is about as guaranteed a kill as you can get.
So is camping. You guarantee 1 Kill to guarantee you lose 3 others
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/634747#Comment_634747
A: How can the Trapped Survivor be immersed while doing boxes?
B: 99 =/= 100. I just keep tunneling until they are dead, and if anyone decides to push that 99 to 100, the Trapped Survivor dies anyways.
Option B resolves like camping. You get the kill but everyone else escapes anyway.
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@TAG said:
What stops me from tunneling the Trapped Survivor until I kill them?
A: The Trapped Survivor going immersed
B: The other Survivors 99%ing all the gens while you are doing this.
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NOED was the same in 2018. There is no reason why it would only just now be killing the game.
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Technically if you want to get it the OG way then there is this build:
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It's when Survivors are optimizing for generator speed rather than anything else such as BP, Emblems or Safety/Stealth
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@YaiPa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/634015#Comment_634015
No, this infinite rock paper scissors logic doesn't work out. As you go into the match you understand the killer, if he double backs often, moonwalks, you can use these informations, since the red stain gives you informations even when you don't see it. The only way to tell if Spirit is phasing is trying to blind her. Plus, standing still hasn't any downsides, if they GUESS right, and leave the loop, you just phase back and reach them instantly.
Both of those situations are guesses.
The Spirit standing still the information. Just because it doesn't tell you of she's phasing doesn't mean it's not information.
In otherwords it's unreliable information. Aka: prerequisite 2.
And if a Spirit stands still and you run then she won't be able to hit you even if there isn't any windows or pallets at least not without addons. A Spirit's phase walk only gains 9.2 meters on the survivor, which means that if the survivor is further than that distance when she hits M2 then she will fail to hit you.
If you are starting at 0 meters then she can just hit you. In any case if she's attempting a standing still mindgame it's going to be because you have enough distance to do a juke otherwise. That means you have enough distance to just run in the other direction.
Regardless let's look at a red glow mindgame.
You see the Killer's red stain but not the Killer. He can either go for you directly or walk backwards and cut you off. You can either keep going or turn around.
Your move depends on what you predict he will do. And his move depends on what he predicts you do. Thus in order to determine his action you need to predict what he's going to predict you will do. But he's doing the same thing, so he's predicting what your prediction will be. This is recursive and thus it is impossible to logically conclude that a specific option is the correct one.
This can apply to ANY interaction where:
Player 1 has options A and B
Player 2 has options C and D
A beats C
B beats D
C beats A
D beats B
Player 1 has no option that beats both C and D at once
Player 2 has no option that beats both A and B at once
Fun fact: You can mindgame someone in rock, paper, scissors so long as you either play at least 2 rounds or if you are aloud to speak.
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Spirit.
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All mindgames eventually boil down to a guess, no matter what type of mindgame it is.
This is why you can have success with things like moonwalking simply by flipping a coin to decide of you are going to fake it or not.
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@YaiPa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/633285#Comment_633285
That's the point, it's always a guessing game, you can't win or lose the "mind game" because there's no outplay, just wrong guess.
@NuclearBurrito said:
Any time you mindgame someone there are always a few prerequisites:
1 - There is no dominant option for either side. That is to say, the Killer can't guarantee a hit and the Survivor can't guarantee a long loop. In this case they will take the dominant option regardless of what the other side does.
2 - At least 1 side has unreliable information on the other - Basically LoS is broken. Alternatively there could be multiple options that can be taken fast enough that the other side can't react. Basically a prediction is required
3 - The other side (relative to the one with unreliable information) is aware of the first 2 things - You cannot do a mindgame on accident. Suspecting a mindgame when the other person does not and messing up because of it is referred to as "outplaying yourself".
That being said. Lets look at one of the most common mindgames, the red glow mindgame at a loop:
Level 0 - The Killer has a red stain. If he rounds a corner the Survivor will know in advance. This gives the Survivor a better idea of where the Killer is going to be.
Level 1 - The Killer is able to walk backwards in order to hide his/her red stain. This can make the other survivor think they are going in the opposite direction.
Level 2 - A Survivor who sees the red glow disappear can note that there is a red glow mindgame and go towards the glow.
Level 3 - A Killer going against a good survivor can turn around and change direction to catch a Survivor that suspects a mindgame off guard.
Level 4 - A Survivor that suspects a level 3 Killer can go where there is no glow in order to avoid a hit
Level 5 - A Killer that suspects a level 4 Survivor can instead moonwalk anyways in order to mix it up.
And so on. This goes on forever.
Effectively this makes any and all red glow mindgames a guessing game. The only difference between this and a non-mindgame guessing game is that this has unequal odds. The Killer is more likely to get a hit by moonwalking compared to turning around or walking forward normally, and a Survivor is more likely to avoid a hit by avoiding the red glow. This is because there are more people who don't think about the mindgame than people that do.
This applies to literally every mindgame. It is inherent to mindgames in general. You can't guarantee a result so you have to guess what the other person guessed, who is guessing what you guess and so on. This isn't random per say, there are often inherent costs to making a given guess compared to another guess (for example if the Survivor can either go to a window or a pallet, and the Killer can cut off one of them in time but needs to predict it, the Survivor would rather go to the window in order to save the pallet for later), however ultimately both sides are always making a guess.
The existence of a wrong guess implies that there is also a right guess.
And if there is a guess at all then the Spirit has to make the same set of guesses.
The details are irrelevant. If the Spirit can't guarantee a hit on reaction and you can't guarantee a miss on a reaction then you can have a mindgame.
Standing still in this case is a great example of a mindgame because outside of the psychological aspect there is no strategical advantage to doing it. The only reason to stand still is to make your opponent think you aren't standing still, and if the opponent correctly predicts this fact then they get a ton of free distance, enough to avoid a hit.
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@Freudentrauma said:
I think, the problem with Spirit is mostly, that the lack of feedback her ability gives you makes it hard to read her or get a hang out of her behaviour afterwards as well. And that makes things feel more frustrating and unfair compared to a Nurse blink, where you can see and judge how the Nurse player blinked. So you know they played and predicted you.
I remember somebody suggesting, that giving Spirit a visible trail, after she leaves the phasewalk might help to get rid of that frustration. And might make it easier to read your opponent for future play. On the other hand a huge trail, when she phases for a long distance, is too much information for Survivors too use.
@Freudentrauma that was my suggestion.
Btw for the long distance thing you could make it so the trail only lasts a finite distance, specifically it could last only within your terror radius.
Thus if you phase walk in a straight line then the trail only will last for 2/3rds of the distance traveled. But if you phasewalk to a survivor 10 meters away (such as in a chase) then the entire trail would be visible.
As a consequence that means if you phase walk 25 meters out and then move over a bit before heading back towards your husk then the trail will be discontinuous.
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@Milo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/631731#Comment_631731
Yeah, Rarely seen because she isn't that good. She "basically" has 1 free hit just as Legion. Just unlike Legion, she is super high so she can be looped "easier"
Plagues free hit is way better than Legions.
With Legion you get stunned every time you use it and you have to use it repeatedly to get it to stick.
With Plague you use it once and you're barely slowed down by it AND it stays until either the end of the game or until the point where they cleanse.
This means that the Plague has much better perk synergy than Legion and can make use out of things like Thanataphobia and M&A in ways that Legion just can't, because against a Legion you can always just heal in order to force Legion to give up the element of surprise when using M&A or the slowdown from Thanataphobia.
Also Plague has way better addons.
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@xllxENIGMAxllx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/632377#Comment_632377
I know about their buffs but haven't thought about the DW effect with dark devotion you are a genius. That mean the deep wounds effect go down because there's no terror radius right(except obsession). Frank's mix tape decrease the timer each hit with deep wound while stab wound study simply decrease the total timer right. i will try this might be fun.
Yup. And Infectious fright is based off terror radius so it can reveal the obsession cross map.
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I got 2.8 by working backwards from a 50/50 winrate in a 1v1.
Those numbers don't take into account the state of the 1v1 so the 50% would be the sum of both hatch plays and endgame situations where the last 2 people power the final gen and then 1 dies ect.
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Still 2.8.
If the Kill rate is exactly 2 then that means that for the game to be balanced a 1k needs to turn into a 4K every single game with 50% of games being 0K.
Assuming you don't want something like that, increasing the number of survivors (with 1 survivor being expected to have a 50/50 escape rate in a balanced game) will always decrease the expected escape rate of each individual survivor.
Or in otherwords, since the increased number of survivors increases the total number of losing outcomes more than the number of possible winning outcomes, that means both sides should have a winrate of under 50%
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Exactly 2.8k average would be ideal.
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@xllxENIGMAxllx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/632251#Comment_632251
Lol meme build i see old legion all over again. Is this build even playable now.
It only became playable this patch, since Dark Devotion and Infectious Fright were both buffed in critical ways.
Dark Devotion now has no cooldown and lasts for up to 30 seconds.
Infectious Fright no longer requires the downs to be via basic attacks. And thus someone being downed by Deep Wounds will proc it.
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Gimmick Build: Dark Devotion, Infectious Fright, Bloodhound, Thanataphobia. Use Franks mixtape and Stab Wound Study for addons.
For use on rank reset to get some actual DW downs.
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@virtushda said:
The only issue I have with this is that it's basically ultra-boring filler for the survivors so the killer can have a bonus. More interesting counter play than additional M1 time would make this much more compelling.
You could say that about literally any hex perk. Kinda a core gameplay issue
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NOED mitigates failure. It doesn't reward it.
You are always better off not letting NOED get to the point where it procs.
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Also depending on how you define gen pressure you may as well have just said:
"How do I stop all the gens from popping besides stopping all the gens from popping?"
So you are going to have to be a bit more specific there
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@legionsunit said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/630671#Comment_630671
You can keep noed in check. How do you keep adrenaline in check? Besides gen pressure?
Anything that counts as skillful play also counts as countering Adrenaline. In other words, normal play alone is enough to handle Adrenaline.
The thing about the perk is that it lets you get more out of slight advantages, but for it to help you need to get an advantage to begin with. Since if the Killer can win in time Adrenaline won't help.
TLDR: If you balance the game as a whole then Adrenaline is balanced. Thus changing the perk directly is unnecessary.
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@Acesthetiic said:
Does it stack with Play With Your Food?
It does. Also with NOED although it shouldn't be lasting that long
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/631155#Comment_631155
By definition, a hex is only active when its respective totem is in the map. I don't believe there is a killer perk that involves totems without being a hex totem itself yet, but it technically wouldn't be a "Hex". I actually think this perk is pretty good if it isn't linked to a hex totem, but I think the name should be changed to avoid confusion.
That's fair. I'll change it then
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There isn't really any precedent for a Killer perk that only effects dull totems so yeah
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@Yung_Slug said:
I like the idea, but there isn't as much incentive to breaking dull totems as there is to breaking the hex totem. Why spend time breaking dull totems when you can just break the hex? To offer a suggestion, I recommend that the hex totem is blocked by the entity until a certain amount of totems are destroyed.
This perk is only dull totems. It's refered to as a hex because it interacts with totems.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/631029#Comment_631029
Well I’m playing Trapper and Hag.
You gave a general solution to a problem that effects all Killers.
That solution can't be presented as such if it only works on 2 Killers.
The only Killers that really make strategic sense to break chase (outside of moonwalk shenanigans) with is stealth Killers and/or Killers that can hit survivors outside of their terror radius (Ex: Omegablink Nurse and Prayer Beeds Spirit)
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/630975#Comment_630975
I have, you just haven’t been listening. Let me explain it again, if you drop chase for a survivor who had a gen at 50% and the other survivor hops onto a gen at lower percentage then I have effectively applied gen pressure and due to my setup I will likely down them faster.
How exactly do you down them faster. You just asserted that they can't run the same loops without actually justifying that claim.
And it doesn't matter if the gen is at 50% unless you are going to immediately kick it, which won't get you very far since now they have a ton of distance.
Otherwise it doesn't matter since the important thing is the total number of charges put into the 5 gens with the most progress. It isn't until mid-late game where specific gens are more important unless you're doing a specific strat or are playing Freddy. It's not like it matters what order the gens are done in outside of a 3 gen strat ect.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/630968#Comment_630968
Whenever you know a certain gen is being worked on then you should abandon the chase.
You still haven't explained how that helps. The person I'm currently chasing will just hop on a gen and leave me no better off than if I just kept chasing the initial person to begin with. Likely worse off since the person on the gen is most likely further away.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/630959#Comment_630959
You must not know where to tactically place traps then, if you know where to trap then you can destroy.
I know? You don't need to switch targets for that though. You can just down the first person to begin with, no need for this dubious juggling shenanigans.