NMCKE
NMCKE
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- NMCKE
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<rant>
I don't think it's about people wanting to pip, but more of the emblem system not being a true representation of skill. For example, when you get a 3K and still safety, it's just really painful to see you do so well and not earn any progress.
Another cringey thing that players, me included, find about the emblem system is that it goes against the developer's saying of, "We aim for a 2K, which is a draw" However, anyone who plays killer at high ranks know you need to 3K or 4K for rank progression. If you get a 2K, you'll likely lose rank when by the developers standards — you shouldn't.
The developers, should stick to a simple ranking system for the killer only since they have only one goal: Sacrifice Survivors. Regardless of the rank, it should always be:
- 0K = -2 pips or 0-2 Hooks = -2 pips
- 1K = -1 pip or 3-5 Hooks = -1 pip
- 2K = 0 pips or 6-8 Hooks = 0 pips
- 3K = 1 pip or 9-11 Hooks = 1 pip
- 4K = 2 pip or 12 Hooks = 2 pips
Best part, a 4K is always a double pip regardless of how you got the 4K, while getting multiple hooks is also rewarding.
Unlike killers, survivors have their power distributed along four players. The current survivors' emblem system makes sure to reward survivors for pulling their weight and punishing those who are getting carried by their teammates. Of course it can be improved, but I think the survivor's ranking system is infinitely better than the killer's ranking system. 😁
</rant>
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@Hoodied said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1013970#Comment_1013970
"You camped from afar"
So what he is saying is you were camping from very far away, unless you were playing Huntress this doesn't work
I was holding my blink from 32 meters with Furtive Chase, Nemesis, and Make Your Choice.
He was tbagging me while I was holding my blink, and I nodded at him while holding my blink.
I was just meming around, and ended 4King because I'm one of the best console Nurses. :P
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@ClickyClicky said:
Yes.
- No basement teleports as Hag
- If 1 survivor disconnects/crashes, 3 hook the rest but let one have hatch so people have a chance to earn points
- If one survivor is doing gens and the other is clearly hatch camping, let the one who made an effort on the gens have hatch (sorry Claudette but you die)
Probably a few more I’m forgetting. Of course these rules can go out of the window if people are toxic.
I have a few when I play survivor:
- Let them sacrifice you since they tried.
- Don't BM and have engaging conversations.
- Enjoy the game.
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@DeathBeam said:
Happy facecamping, tunnelling, slugging, playing dirty, and salt Day.
XD
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Here's what I do as the killer to make sure I have a ton of pressure during the End Game:
Down a survivor, slug them, then open the Exit Gates. Obviously you can't do this if they are too far away, but it's something to consider if the Exit Gates are 10 seconds away from where you downed the survivor. You can also do this with hooks if you have Blood Warden, just hook them and open the Exit Gates if they are close by. You can easily force a hook trades with other survivors or pretend to be boosted by messing up during a chase. Then, once you get your next hook, boom, you caught them and if they unhook the survivor — the EGC isn't slown down and Blood Warden is keeping everyone contained.
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I love this meme! :P
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/958221#Comment_958221
Edit: The darn glitch happened again, I'll @ you when I'm done with this comment. 🤬
Fair. For all I know, 100% could totally be fine. PTB testing would be the best way to figure that one out, yes.
I'm glad we can agree to a movement speed buff for Amanda while she's crouched! 🐷
I guess the way I see it, by moving the lion roar to the end, you're kinda buffing the surprise capabilities of the ambush to make it stronger than just uncrouching and attacking. So I was kinda thinking "you ambush if you want the easier hit and you uncrouch if you want to go for the grab". But you make a fair point about just being able to have your cake and eat it by just uncrouching since a failed grab is probably just a hit anyways. I guess when you look at it like that, there isn't really anything wrong with ambushing always being the correct decision if the Survivor hasn't caught on to your presence, since the alternative would still be that ambushing is never the correct decision, which is stupid. Alright, I'm on board with this idea now.
Awesome, imagine Ambushing a survivor and automatically grabbing them if they are occupied. If you know they have DS active, then of course, you can just lunge attack them to make sure they don't get to use it on you. 🐷
I know that numbers are not finalized, but let's go with the 60 second passive timer and 120 second active timer. Assume we're not using any of the add-ons that reduce the passive timer.
We can probably categorize Survivors into 3 groups: Good, Average, Bad
The bad Survivor would probably do as you say and not take the RBT seriously, letting the passive timer run down while they do whatever until the active timer starts running down. This only gives them 2 minutes to do box searching, which is basically the current RBT + Tampered Timer.
The average Survivor would likely start hammering out boxes on the first chance they get. This gives them the solid 3 minutes to get their Trap off, which is worse than the current RBT.
The good Survivor would probably spend 30 seconds doing whatever they can do from wherever they are (heal, start up a nearby gen, maybe search a chest or do a totem), and then from there, they would start to hammer out the boxes. This gives them the same amount of time as the current RBT, except they also got a free grace period to do whatever they want. This also makes it worse than the current RBT.
Currently, I am off the opinion that Reverse Bear Traps as they are now suffer from consistency issues. When they work, they are solid time wasters. When they don't, your power is neutered that much more. With that in mind, I would argue that this change at best does not fix the issues (at least, what I feel are issues) with the current Reverse Bear Traps and at worse simply makes them worse against non-potatos/non-greedy players.
I see exactly what you're doing, survivors will find the sweet spot to be as efficient as possible while they have a RBT on them. This can make the RBT less of a threat, which can mean they won't slow the game down as much. You make a good point, which is why I love receiving constructive feedback.
My goal with the passive timer was to prevent unfair scenarios where you get killed by a RBT because you got extremely unlucky. Therefore, since you made that point, the passive timer will immediately expire once the trapped survivor performs any basic action:
- Repairing
- Healing
- Sabotaging
- Cleansing
- Searching
- Opening
- Unhooking
This doesn't include actions survivors perform on you such as healing or unhooking.
Before, I wanted the passive timer, by Jigsaw's Lore, give survivors the ability to make a choice and decide how much risk they want to play with (while removing unfair scenarios if they don't want to take any risk).
Now, if they attempt to do anything while the passive timer is active, it will immediately expire. This sounds really strong, but keep in mind that's their choice and the active timer doesn't start until a generator is completed. For what we know, survivors can have an infinite amount of time to search Jigsaw Boxes since generators aren't being completed (and arguably at that point, the RBT are doing their job).
The way I see it, if you just hardcore tunnel the Trapped Survivor while the timer is counting down, even while slowed down, you can force the Survivor into a completely unescapable position (sure, they might have enough time to do boxes, but then they won't have enough time to make it to the gate), which I don't really like. You can argue that they are in an unescapable position with the paused EGC timer still because the Killer simply won't let them go, but you could MAYBE argue that if the Trapped Survivor manages to shake off the Killer somehow, they could potentially then find the time to do the boxes without having to worry about the EGC timer. IMO, the safest way to go about it without promoting opportunity for abuse on the Killer's end is to simply make it so the timer can still go active once all the gens are done (which, I guess in the context of your idea, would be to make it so the RBTs automatically become active once the passive timer runs out) and to pause the EGC timer. That way, there's still a timer counting down to their demise, but the trapped Survivor does not have to worry about a second timer that they can't do anything about.
I agree with this compromise since the survivor won't be in an unwinnable situation where they can't control the EGC. At least with your suggestion, RBT remain powerful during the endgame while they aren't completely screwed of the killer chases them since both timers would be paused and possible stalemates are removed.
One gripe still, but I could careless about this since the game will end eventually and they can escape through the hatch. You can still use a RBT at the last few seconds of the EGC to cheese their death since like I said before, screwed if they do and screwed if they don't. Again, I don't care about this, but I thought it's worth mentioning to you. 🐷
I think my concern goes a bit beyond simply spending more time trying to get the trap off. It's not just an additional 7 seconds per box to get the Trap off; it's an additional 7 second per box just standing around being open to being spotted by the Pig if you are using the strongest add-ons. If at any point the trapped Survivor gets off the Box, they have to start the search on a Box from scratch. And if the Pig approaches, they have to either move away and suffer an additional penalty searching or just take a hit from the Pig. An additional 7 seconds means the Pig has 19 seconds per box to interrupt them for even a second. Just one single success doing so can throw off the Survivor considerably if they aren't lucky with getting the Trap off. This is already doable currently with Bag of Gears and Crate of Gears (which is why I'm okay with your 2 and 3 second add-ons), but my worry is that the additional 2-ish (technically just a pinch less) per box compared to those two add-ons can prove to be problematic. Granted, with the 3-minutes total your RBT idea has, maybe the concern is mitigated, but it's hard for me to be okay with that when I have issues with the passive/active idea as presented as well. Though of course, it is entirely possible that I could be off-base with this and that the extra seconds ends up being fine.
That's why we have a passive timer to prevent unfair scenarios, they have a surplus amount of time to remove the RBT in the case this happens, plus the time between when the passive timer expires and when the active timer is triggered by a generator.
17 seconds with 4 boxes add up to 68 seconds, which gives the survivor 1:52 to handle the killer's shenanigans. However, if they decided to take the risk, they will only have 0:52 to handle the killer's shenanigans. This is assuming a generator was already completed to trigger the active timer once the passive timer expires, and keep in mind, the passive timer follows the same rules as the current RBT timer in terms of when it will pause (in a chase, hooked, or downed).
I think the survivor has plenty of opportunities to prevent the killer for getting a kill this way, and to add, the killer gets punished since they have no pressure towards other survivors.
Here's the thing: Unless the current RBT timer starts up before the Survivor is off the hook, Survivors wearing RBTs already are under not a lot of pressure if they don't wait to start doing boxes. Your passive/active timer with those numbers reduces that pressure even further. So all these add-ons are doing are adding back the pressure that was basically taken away from the Traps in the first place. And even if you use the two strongest ones, the total minimum amount of time you are giving the Survivors is still higher than the time a Survivor would currently have with just Tampered Timer, an add-on that already kinda does nothing unless someone actually DIES to the RBT. Considering that no one reasonable would put off doing Boxes if they see the passive timer draining like a mofo, the end result for the two strongest add-ons is still weaker than one current add-on.
I think the problem with all this is that your intent is supposed to be that you are giving Survivors the chance to figure out how much risk they are willing to play with, but not only are you minimizing the pressure of consequences to people who choose to play it safe compared to current RBTs, but you are giving more risk for people to safely play with before the pressure of consequences become on-par with current RBTs. I do not think that the RBTs need to be made safer compared to how they currently are, but that is what is happening in practice.
I see what you are saying, so I'll add on to one of my comments about saying any basic action the survivor does will automatically cause the passive timer to expire.
I think these add-ons should increase the risk and overall, decrease the general time survivors have on the RBT.
I'll redo my suggestions for these add-ons and I'd like you to tell me if this is any better. If not, I want you to suggest something to me and we can go from there.
These two are in one add-on:
Increases the passive timer by 5(Common)/8(Uncommon)/13(Rare)/18(Very Rare) seconds.
AND
Decreases the active timer by 7(Common)/12(Uncommon)/19(Rare)/26(Very Rare) seconds.
With both of the strongest add-ons stacked, here's what both timers will look like:
Passive: 1:31
Active: 1:15
Total: 2:46
This further encourages survivors to waste time doing Jigsaw Boxes because they don't know if Amanda is running these add-ons or not. Even if they get hit with this combo, RNG can always save them, so it's not an immediate game over. 🐷
I personally have a dislike for add-ons that effectively function as worse versions of existing perks (ex. almost every current Mangled add-on that exists). Personally, I'd rather just allow Huntress Lullaby to affect boxes (since it currently does not, to my understanding) and just have the add-ons do something completely different (preferably something not Skill-Check related). This is more personal preference than anything, to be fair.
That's fair, I completely agree with your statement that add-ons shouldn't be copies of perks. However, I think there should be some add-ons that affect Jigsaw Boxes, but currently, I don't have any ideas at the moment — feel free to suggest an idea! 🐷
I think it's not that simple. The thing about this series of add-ons is that they do nothing at all to hinder the Survivor while they search boxes. They are only relevant when the Pig is actively hounding them. Mangled is arguably an exception, but that kinda goes back to what I said before about add-ons being worse versions of existing perks. If the Pig does not actively harass these Survivors while they have Traps on, the add-ons do nothing at all because once the Traps are off, they can just go about their business as usual. If the Pig DOES actively go after them to take advantage of the status conditions, however, then we have a different problem where the Pig is having to tunnel the trapped Survivors to make use of those add-ons. This is bad because the point of the RBTs is to stall for time and slow down gen progression, and if the Pig is chasing the people with the Traps, the Pig is reaping none of the stall benefit from said Traps. It's basically putting the Pig in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
What if the status effects are applied after the survivor removes their RBT?
I know, you don't like add-ons that serve as budget perks, but it would solve the problem you see with status effect add-ons that require you to chase trapped survivors to gain value (at the cost of removing your stall value).
I would personally say no more than 2.
Awesome, we have an agreement, and now, infinite RBT are possible!
Always wanted this to be an add-on in my honest opinion, so hopefully a developer will see this thread! 🐷
I did indeed miss the second part. My apologies. My concern with the second part is that the Pig can now accurately track which boxes a Survivor has already checked. If three boxes are done and the Trap is still on, the Pig now knows for certain that they can simply defend the last box like all hell and make sure the Trapped Survivor can never get the Trap off. Is this necessarily strategically sound? Probably not. But I worry this would invite trollish/griefy gameplay tactics that doesn't really have an answer to it. Granted, this is already possible with the fundamental design of RBTs through sheer dumb luck, but I'm not sure how I feel about increasing the efficiency of such a tactic.
This can be fixed by adding a rule to the first and last boxes.
Survivors can never free themselves after searching the first Jigsaw, and commonly, the survivor won't have to search the last Jigsaw Box. Commonly is highlighted because I'm implying it's still possible for the trapped survivor to search the last Jigsaw Box.
Well, the Survivor kinda already has that going on with the Pig crouching to them, so the Survivors by default always have to worry at least somewhat about being snuck up on due to no Terror Radius. What this add-on does beyond giving away the Survivor's immediate location is give the Pig an opportunity to not have to crouch to potentially catch that Survivor by surprise. But as is the case with the status condition add-ons, that is only really relevant when the Pig is actively trying to take advantage of the add-on and effectively tunneling the Survivor, which runs counterproductive to the goal of the Reverse Bear Traps
I made this add-on with the intention that the survivor will waste time guessing if the killer is coming to them, but you make a good point about tunneling.
Therefore, since we don't want that in the game for obvious reasons, we will need a add-on to replace this one. I happen to come up with an add-on that punishes survivors who complete generators to activate other survivors' timer.
What do you think:
(Very Rare) Survivors who complete generators and active other survivors' RBT, will have their RBT immediately activate without the need of a generator upon being trapped.
I'm done! :)
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/955242#Comment_955242
don't know exactly how much we should buff Amanda's crouch speed; all I know is that it needs a movement speed buff because it takes forever to set up for an Ambush.
The main reason why 100% comes in mind is because it's not faster than the survivor's running speed, so you can't chase a survivor using Ambush only. To be sure what to buff her movement speed to, we will need to test some things on the PTB.
Fair. For all I know, 100% could totally be fine. PTB testing would be the best way to figure that one out, yes.
This is where I disagree, because uncrouching allows you to do both already. You can attempt to grab someone, and if it fails, you get a hit anyways.
Why would I surprise a survivor by Ambushing them when uncrouching gives me the chance to grab someone? Ambushing isn't worth it, you always want to uncrouch when surprising a survivor, and that's the problem — uncrouching is simply better than Ambushing in every way in terms of surprising survivors.
I guess the way I see it, by moving the lion roar to the end, you're kinda buffing the surprise capabilities of the ambush to make it stronger than just uncrouching and attacking. So I was kinda thinking "you ambush if you want the easier hit and you uncrouch if you want to go for the grab". But you make a fair point about just being able to have your cake and eat it by just uncrouching since a failed grab is probably just a hit anyways. I guess when you look at it like that, there isn't really anything wrong with ambushing always being the correct decision if the Survivor hasn't caught on to your presence, since the alternative would still be that ambushing is never the correct decision, which is stupid. Alright, I'm on board with this idea now.
Actually, I think you understand everything, but not considering a few key factors.
Long story short, if you don't take the RBT seriously, you're risking getting yourself killed because you will have less time to remove the RBT when it becomes active (which can be as little as 2 minutes). However, if you take the RBT seriously or you didn't get the chance to take the RBT seriously (Hooked, Downed, or in a chase), you will be rewarded with more time to search Jigsaw Boxes.
I know, I know, if the survivor takes the RBT seriously and tries to get it off ASAP, they get 3 minutes to remove the RBT. However, keep in mind that RBT are supposed to stall the survivors and are only supposed to be lethal when they don't take the RBT seriously. I think these changes work well with the theme of Amanda Young, and the core of what Jigsaw does.
The survivors have a choice to use the passive timer for whatever they want, but that comes with a consequence.
I know that numbers are not finalized, but let's go with the 60 second passive timer and 120 second active timer. Assume we're not using any of the add-ons that reduce the passive timer.
We can probably categorize Survivors into 3 groups: Good, Average, Bad
The bad Survivor would probably do as you say and not take the RBT seriously, letting the passive timer run down while they do whatever until the active timer starts running down. This only gives them 2 minutes to do box searching, which is basically the current RBT + Tampered Timer.
The average Survivor would likely start hammering out boxes on the first chance they get. This gives them the solid 3 minutes to get their Trap off, which is worse than the current RBT.
The good Survivor would probably spend 30 seconds doing whatever they can do from wherever they are (heal, start up a nearby gen, maybe search a chest or do a totem), and then from there, they would start to hammer out the boxes. This gives them the same amount of time as the current RBT, except they also got a free grace period to do whatever they want. This also makes it worse than the current RBT.
Currently, I am off the opinion that Reverse Bear Traps as they are now suffer from consistency issues. When they work, they are solid time wasters. When they don't, your power is neutered that much more. With that in mind, I would argue that this change at best does not fix the issues (at least, what I feel are issues) with the current Reverse Bear Traps and at worse simply makes them worse against non-potatos/non-greedy players.
Recently, I did some testing with the RBT and EGC, and usually, survivors with an active RBT who didn't start on Jigsaw Boxes will almost always die to the EGC. The timer didn't slow down to give them a fair chance.
Therefore, make RBT prevent survivors from leaving through the Exit Gates, but slowing the EGC by 50% should allow more counterplay. Besides, survivors already 99% the Exit Gates, and if someone messes up, they have 4 minutes to remove the RBT and escape.
I don't like pausing the EGC because there will be situations where a survivor will get trapped at 1% left on the EGC. Then, we have a stalemate, if the trapped survivor attempts to remove the RBT, they will get sacrificed on the spot as soon as they remove the RBT, so they won't remove the RBT at all. The killer can find the survivor, but that's going to take F.O.R.E.V.E.R.
At that point, the EGC is not doing its job by ending the game.
The way I see it, if you just hardcore tunnel the Trapped Survivor while the timer is counting down, even while slowed down, you can force the Survivor into a completely unescapable position (sure, they might have enough time to do boxes, but then they won't have enough time to make it to the gate), which I don't really like. You can argue that they are in an unescapable position with the paused EGC timer still because the Killer simply won't let them go, but you could MAYBE argue that if the Trapped Survivor manages to shake off the Killer somehow, they could potentially then find the time to do the boxes without having to worry about the EGC timer. IMO, the safest way to go about it without promoting opportunity for abuse on the Killer's end is to simply make it so the timer can still go active once all the gens are done (which, I guess in the context of your idea, would be to make it so the RBTs automatically become active once the passive timer runs out) and to pause the EGC timer. That way, there's still a timer counting down to their demise, but the trapped Survivor does not have to worry about a second timer that they can't do anything about.
I think this is all fair since survivors are given plenty of time to remove the RBT, and if they don't take it seriously, they will likely die to the RBT. Through, RNG is always a factor in a survivor's death, if someone doesn't take the RBT seriously with these add-ons, it's not GG. Plus, don't forget about the generator requirement to make the RBT active once the passive timer expires. If a generator isn't completed, survivors who don't take the RBT seriously will survive anyways.
I think my concern goes a bit beyond simply spending more time trying to get the trap off. It's not just an additional 7 seconds per box to get the Trap off; it's an additional 7 second per box just standing around being open to being spotted by the Pig if you are using the strongest add-ons. If at any point the trapped Survivor gets off the Box, they have to start the search on a Box from scratch. And if the Pig approaches, they have to either move away and suffer an additional penalty searching or just take a hit from the Pig. An additional 7 seconds means the Pig has 19 seconds per box to interrupt them for even a second. Just one single success doing so can throw off the Survivor considerably if they aren't lucky with getting the Trap off. This is already doable currently with Bag of Gears and Crate of Gears (which is why I'm okay with your 2 and 3 second add-ons), but my worry is that the additional 2-ish (technically just a pinch less) per box compared to those two add-ons can prove to be problematic. Granted, with the 3-minutes total your RBT idea has, maybe the concern is mitigated, but it's hard for me to be okay with that when I have issues with the passive/active idea as presented as well. Though of course, it is entirely possible that I could be off-base with this and that the extra seconds ends up being fine.
Basically, this gives the trapped survivor less time to make use of the passive timer. Remember, the passive timer is supposed to give survivors who want to get rid of the RBT, more time to do so before the RBT pressures them. Think of the passive timer as a reward for the survivors who treat the RBT seriously.
Stacking both add-ons will give the trapped survivor a 15 second passive timer. This effectively reduces the reward for treating the RBT seriously, but shouldn't be lethal if the trapped survivor plays their cards right.
Here's the thing: Unless the current RBT timer starts up before the Survivor is off the hook, Survivors wearing RBTs already are under not a lot of pressure if they don't wait to start doing boxes. Your passive/active timer with those numbers reduces that pressure even further. So all these add-ons are doing are adding back the pressure that was basically taken away from the Traps in the first place. And even if you use the two strongest ones, the total minimum amount of time you are giving the Survivors is still higher than the time a Survivor would currently have with just Tampered Timer, an add-on that already kinda does nothing unless someone actually DIES to the RBT. Considering that no one reasonable would put off doing Boxes if they see the passive timer draining like a mofo, the end result for the two strongest add-ons is still weaker than one current add-on.
I think the problem with all this is that your intent is supposed to be that you are giving Survivors the chance to figure out how much risk they are willing to play with, but not only are you minimizing the pressure of consequences to people who choose to play it safe compared to current RBTs, but you are giving more risk for people to safely play with before the pressure of consequences become on-par with current RBTs. I do not think that the RBTs need to be made safer compared to how they currently are, but that is what is happening in practice.
Well, it's an add-on, so survivors won't always expect Amanda to run it, and if it's not that good, we could add a mini Huntress Lullaby to the Jigsaw Boxes since they aren't affected by Huntress Lullaby in the first place.
I personally have a dislike for add-ons that effectively function as worse versions of existing perks (ex. almost every current Mangled add-on that exists). Personally, I'd rather just allow Huntress Lullaby to affect boxes (since it currently does not, to my understanding) and just have the add-ons do something completely different (preferably something not Skill-Check related). This is more personal preference than anything, to be fair.
Eh, it doesn't feel impactful because we aren't the ones experiencing the effects.
I think it's not that simple. The thing about this series of add-ons is that they do nothing at all to hinder the Survivor while they search boxes. They are only relevant when the Pig is actively hounding them. Mangled is arguably an exception, but that kinda goes back to what I said before about add-ons being worse versions of existing perks. If the Pig does not actively harass these Survivors while they have Traps on, the add-ons do nothing at all because once the Traps are off, they can just go about their business as usual. If the Pig DOES actively go after them to take advantage of the status conditions, however, then we have a different problem where the Pig is having to tunnel the trapped Survivors to make use of those add-ons. This is bad because the point of the RBTs is to stall for time and slow down gen progression, and if the Pig is chasing the people with the Traps, the Pig is reaping none of the stall benefit from said Traps. It's basically putting the Pig in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
I would be fine with that, how many do you think we should remove?
I would personally say no more than 2.
You missed the second part of this add-on:
"(Very Rare) While crouched, your breathing and the noises made by moving vegetation is silenced.
When a survivor searches a Jigsaw Box, that Jigsaw Box will display a yellow aura."
I did indeed miss the second part. My apologies. My concern with the second part is that the Pig can now accurately track which boxes a Survivor has already checked. If three boxes are done and the Trap is still on, the Pig now knows for certain that they can simply defend the last box like all hell and make sure the Trapped Survivor can never get the Trap off. Is this necessarily strategically sound? Probably not. But I worry this would invite trollish/griefy gameplay tactics that doesn't really have an answer to it. Granted, this is already possible with the fundamental design of RBTs through sheer dumb luck, but I'm not sure how I feel about increasing the efficiency of such a tactic.
If the survivor doesn't know if the killer is coming to them, how can they rule out that it's safe to search a Jigsaw Box?
This can cause survivors to be paranoid and waste more of their time. If they don't take risks or use context clues, it could end up getting them killed but if you decide to go after them, the timer simply stops.
Well, the Survivor kinda already has that going on with the Pig crouching to them, so the Survivors by default always have to worry at least somewhat about being snuck up on due to no Terror Radius. What this add-on does beyond giving away the Survivor's immediate location is give the Pig an opportunity to not have to crouch to potentially catch that Survivor by surprise. But as is the case with the status condition add-ons, that is only really relevant when the Pig is actively trying to take advantage of the add-on and effectively tunneling the Survivor, which runs counterproductive to the goal of the Reverse Bear Traps.
Edit: The darn glitch happened again, I'll @ you when I'm done with this comment. 🤬
Fair. For all I know, 100% could totally be fine. PTB testing would be the best way to figure that one out, yes.
I'm glad we can agree to a movement speed buff for Amanda while she's crouched! 🐷
I guess the way I see it, by moving the lion roar to the end, you're kinda buffing the surprise capabilities of the ambush to make it stronger than just uncrouching and attacking. So I was kinda thinking "you ambush if you want the easier hit and you uncrouch if you want to go for the grab". But you make a fair point about just being able to have your cake and eat it by just uncrouching since a failed grab is probably just a hit anyways. I guess when you look at it like that, there isn't really anything wrong with ambushing always being the correct decision if the Survivor hasn't caught on to your presence, since the alternative would still be that ambushing is never the correct decision, which is stupid. Alright, I'm on board with this idea now.
Awesome, imagine Ambushing a survivor and automatically grabbing them if they are occupied. If you know they have DS active, then of course, you can just lunge attack them to make sure they don't get to use it on you. 🐷
I know that numbers are not finalized, but let's go with the 60 second passive timer and 120 second active timer. Assume we're not using any of the add-ons that reduce the passive timer.
We can probably categorize Survivors into 3 groups: Good, Average, Bad
The bad Survivor would probably do as you say and not take the RBT seriously, letting the passive timer run down while they do whatever until the active timer starts running down. This only gives them 2 minutes to do box searching, which is basically the current RBT + Tampered Timer.
The average Survivor would likely start hammering out boxes on the first chance they get. This gives them the solid 3 minutes to get their Trap off, which is worse than the current RBT.
The good Survivor would probably spend 30 seconds doing whatever they can do from wherever they are (heal, start up a nearby gen, maybe search a chest or do a totem), and then from there, they would start to hammer out the boxes. This gives them the same amount of time as the current RBT, except they also got a free grace period to do whatever they want. This also makes it worse than the current RBT.
Currently, I am off the opinion that Reverse Bear Traps as they are now suffer from consistency issues. When they work, they are solid time wasters. When they don't, your power is neutered that much more. With that in mind, I would argue that this change at best does not fix the issues (at least, what I feel are issues) with the current Reverse Bear Traps and at worse simply makes them worse against non-potatos/non-greedy players.
I see exactly what you're doing, survivors will find the sweet spot to be as efficient as possible while they have a RBT on them. This can make the RBT less of a threat, which can mean they won't slow the game down as much. You make a good point, which is why I love receiving constructive feedback.
My goal with the passive timer was to prevent unfair scenarios where you get killed by a RBT because you got extremely unlucky. Therefore, since you made that point, the passive timer will immediately expire once the trapped survivor performs any basic action:
- Repairing
- Healing
- Sabotaging
- Cleansing
- Searching
- Opening
- Unhooking
This doesn't include actions survivors perform on you such as healing or unhooking.
Before, I wanted the passive timer, by Jigsaw's Lore, give survivors the ability to make a choice and decide how much risk they want to play with (while removing unfair scenarios if they don't want to take any risk).
Now, if they attempt to do anything while the passive timer is active, it will immediately expire. This sounds really strong, but keep in mind that's their choice and the active timer doesn't start until a generator is completed. For what we know, survivors can have an infinite amount of time to search Jigsaw Boxes since generators aren't being completed (and arguably at that point, the RBT are doing their job).
The way I see it, if you just hardcore tunnel the Trapped Survivor while the timer is counting down, even while slowed down, you can force the Survivor into a completely unescapable position (sure, they might have enough time to do boxes, but then they won't have enough time to make it to the gate), which I don't really like. You can argue that they are in an unescapable position with the paused EGC timer still because the Killer simply won't let them go, but you could MAYBE argue that if the Trapped Survivor manages to shake off the Killer somehow, they could potentially then find the time to do the boxes without having to worry about the EGC timer. IMO, the safest way to go about it without promoting opportunity for abuse on the Killer's end is to simply make it so the timer can still go active once all the gens are done (which, I guess in the context of your idea, would be to make it so the RBTs automatically become active once the passive timer runs out) and to pause the EGC timer. That way, there's still a timer counting down to their demise, but the trapped Survivor does not have to worry about a second timer that they can't do anything about.
I agree with this compromise since the survivor won't be in an unwinnable situation where they can't control the EGC. At least with your suggestion, RBT remain powerful during the endgame while they aren't completely screwed of the killer chases them since both timers would be paused and possible stalemates are removed.
One gripe still, but I could careless about this since the game will end eventually and they can escape through the hatch. You can still use a RBT at the last few seconds of the EGC to cheese their death since like I said before, screwed if they do and screwed if they don't. Again, I don't care about this, but I thought it's worth mentioning to you. 🐷
I think my concern goes a bit beyond simply spending more time trying to get the trap off. It's not just an additional 7 seconds per box to get the Trap off; it's an additional 7 second per box just standing around being open to being spotted by the Pig if you are using the strongest add-ons. If at any point the trapped Survivor gets off the Box, they have to start the search on a Box from scratch. And if the Pig approaches, they have to either move away and suffer an additional penalty searching or just take a hit from the Pig. An additional 7 seconds means the Pig has 19 seconds per box to interrupt them for even a second. Just one single success doing so can throw off the Survivor considerably if they aren't lucky with getting the Trap off. This is already doable currently with Bag of Gears and Crate of Gears (which is why I'm okay with your 2 and 3 second add-ons), but my worry is that the additional 2-ish (technically just a pinch less) per box compared to those two add-ons can prove to be problematic. Granted, with the 3-minutes total your RBT idea has, maybe the concern is mitigated, but it's hard for me to be okay with that when I have issues with the passive/active idea as presented as well. Though of course, it is entirely possible that I could be off-base with this and that the extra seconds ends up being fine.
That's why we have a passive timer to prevent unfair scenarios, they have a surplus amount of time to remove the RBT in the case this happens, plus the time between when the passive timer expires and when the active timer is triggered by a generator.
17 seconds with 4 boxes add up to 68 seconds, which gives the survivor 1:52 to handle the killer's shenanigans. However, if they decided to take the risk, they will only have 0:52 to handle the killer's shenanigans. This is assuming a generator was already completed to trigger the active timer once the passive timer expires, and keep in mind, the passive timer follows the same rules as the current RBT timer in terms of when it will pause (in a chase, hooked, or downed).
I think the survivor has plenty of opportunities to prevent the killer for getting a kill this way, and to add, the killer gets punished since they have no pressure towards other survivors.
Here's the thing: Unless the current RBT timer starts up before the Survivor is off the hook, Survivors wearing RBTs already are under not a lot of pressure if they don't wait to start doing boxes. Your passive/active timer with those numbers reduces that pressure even further. So all these add-ons are doing are adding back the pressure that was basically taken away from the Traps in the first place. And even if you use the two strongest ones, the total minimum amount of time you are giving the Survivors is still higher than the time a Survivor would currently have with just Tampered Timer, an add-on that already kinda does nothing unless someone actually DIES to the RBT. Considering that no one reasonable would put off doing Boxes if they see the passive timer draining like a mofo, the end result for the two strongest add-ons is still weaker than one current add-on.
I think the problem with all this is that your intent is supposed to be that you are giving Survivors the chance to figure out how much risk they are willing to play with, but not only are you minimizing the pressure of consequences to people who choose to play it safe compared to current RBTs, but you are giving more risk for people to safely play with before the pressure of consequences become on-par with current RBTs. I do not think that the RBTs need to be made safer compared to how they currently are, but that is what is happening in practice.
I see what you are saying, so I'll add on to one of my comments about saying any basic action the survivor does will automatically cause the passive timer to expire.
I think these add-ons should increase the risk and overall, decrease the general time survivors have on the RBT.
I'll redo my suggestions for these add-ons and I'd like you to tell me if this is any better. If not, I want you to suggest something to me and we can go from there.
These two are in one add-on:
Increases the passive timer by 5(Common)/8(Uncommon)/13(Rare)/18(Very Rare) seconds.
AND
Decreases the active timer by 7(Common)/12(Uncommon)/19(Rare)/26(Very Rare) seconds.
With both of the strongest add-ons stacked, here's what both timers will look like:
Passive: 1:31
Active: 1:15
Total: 2:46
This further encourages survivors to waste time doing Jigsaw Boxes because they don't know if Amanda is running these add-ons or not. Even if they get hit with this combo, RNG can always save them, so it's not an immediate game over. 🐷
I personally have a dislike for add-ons that effectively function as worse versions of existing perks (ex. almost every current Mangled add-on that exists). Personally, I'd rather just allow Huntress Lullaby to affect boxes (since it currently does not, to my understanding) and just have the add-ons do something completely different (preferably something not Skill-Check related). This is more personal preference than anything, to be fair.
That's fair, I completely agree with your statement that add-ons shouldn't be copies of perks. However, I think there should be some add-ons that affect Jigsaw Boxes, but currently, I don't have any ideas at the moment — feel free to suggest an idea! 🐷
I think it's not that simple. The thing about this series of add-ons is that they do nothing at all to hinder the Survivor while they search boxes. They are only relevant when the Pig is actively hounding them. Mangled is arguably an exception, but that kinda goes back to what I said before about add-ons being worse versions of existing perks. If the Pig does not actively harass these Survivors while they have Traps on, the add-ons do nothing at all because once the Traps are off, they can just go about their business as usual. If the Pig DOES actively go after them to take advantage of the status conditions, however, then we have a different problem where the Pig is having to tunnel the trapped Survivors to make use of those add-ons. This is bad because the point of the RBTs is to stall for time and slow down gen progression, and if the Pig is chasing the people with the Traps, the Pig is reaping none of the stall benefit from said Traps. It's basically putting the Pig in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
What if the status effects are applied after the survivor removes their RBT?
I know, you don't like add-ons that serve as budget perks, but it would solve the problem you see with status effect add-ons that require you to chase trapped survivors to gain value (at the cost of removing your stall value).
I would personally say no more than 2.
Awesome, we have an agreement, and now, infinite RBT are possible!
Always wanted this to be an add-on in my honest opinion, so hopefully a developer will see this thread! 🐷
I did indeed miss the second part. My apologies. My concern with the second part is that the Pig can now accurately track which boxes a Survivor has already checked. If three boxes are done and the Trap is still on, the Pig now knows for certain that they can simply defend the last box like all hell and make sure the Trapped Survivor can never get the Trap off. Is this necessarily strategically sound? Probably not. But I worry this would invite trollish/griefy gameplay tactics that doesn't really have an answer to it. Granted, this is already possible with the fundamental design of RBTs through sheer dumb luck, but I'm not sure how I feel about increasing the efficiency of such a tactic.
This can be fixed by adding a rule to the first and last boxes.
Survivors can never free themselves after searching the first Jigsaw, and commonly, the survivor won't have to search the last Jigsaw Box. Commonly is highlighted because I'm implying it's still possible for the trapped survivor to search the last Jigsaw Box.
Well, the Survivor kinda already has that going on with the Pig crouching to them, so the Survivors by default always have to worry at least somewhat about being snuck up on due to no Terror Radius. What this add-on does beyond giving away the Survivor's immediate location is give the Pig an opportunity to not have to crouch to potentially catch that Survivor by surprise. But as is the case with the status condition add-ons, that is only really relevant when the Pig is actively trying to take advantage of the add-on and effectively tunneling the Survivor, which runs counterproductive to the goal of the Reverse Bear Traps
I made this add-on with the intention that the survivor will waste time guessing if the killer is coming to them, but you make a good point about tunneling.
Therefore, since we don't want that in the game for obvious reasons, we will need a add-on to replace this one. I happen to come up with an add-on that punishes survivors who complete generators to activate other survivors' timer.
What do you think:
(Very Rare) Survivors who complete generators and active other survivors' RBT, will have their RBT immediately activate without the need of a generator upon being trapped.
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@GrootDude said:
Please don’t try to get me to grab you off of a gen/totem, I’m not gonna grab you, I’m gonna hit you. You’re just giving me easy pressure and not helping your team.
Use lockers instead, they guarantee that you get grabbed.
I'll just slug them and give them a safety helmet — they can have fun with my 6 Jigsaw Boxes build. :D
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@kinderjazen said:
I feel like 2 tokens is to much, because you could easily snow ball and get your 2 hooks to mori. That’s a REAL height risk / high reward perk unlike ruin that can be found in 10 seconds of the match and effects can be negated by skilled survivors and gen tapping
OP's suggestion can allow the perk to be disabled before it even activates, assuming all totems are cleansed before the killer reaches 2 tokens.
I know this is unlikely for survivors, but I want to point out the counterplay before people assume the worst. Furthermore, with today's totem spawns, you're considered a lucky man to reach 3 tokens with Devour Hope.
I'm in favor of OP's idea, even through I would prefer Devour Hope's movement speed effect stays active until cleansed.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1015037#Comment_1015037
If I am not mistaken (and I am pretty sure this was not confirmed by the Dev), there are more Challenges. Which means, there will be more Rift Fragments earned via Challenges.
That's awesome, a lot of players complained about finishing the challenges with 20 tiers to grind through XP. 😁
I couldn't finish my challenges since I have limited playtime, but I managed to reach tier 64. The Rift is definitely worth the grind, but sadly, it's no where near what the developers predicted the grind to be.
I bought the Rift because the developers said "Players with a hour of daily playtime can complete The Rift." And well, I almost did it by staying up all night for the past few weeks. It was pretty fun adventure, ironically.
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@Peanits said:
New Tomes and Rifts come at the same time, yes.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1014271#Comment_1014271
We have not given any dates for it just yet.
Out of curiosity, did you make any changes to the Rift? 😊
Most players felt the Rift didn't meet the developer's standard of 70 hours for completion, or the average player's daily playtime, which is a hour daily.
It's okay Peanits if you don't have anything planned, but transparency, even when you don't have anything to share, is always appreciated when applicable. 😁
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1014923#Comment_1014923
It was The Game to be fair, I played on Blood Lodge the game before and Devour Hope got cleansed immediately.
If you are able to kill someone with a perk, you should get all the remaining devout and malicious points from the survivor you killed via mori.
So, if you killed your Obsession who haven't gotten hooked, killing them with Rancor will give you 3 hooks worth of emblem points and 15% of your malicious category will be filled by emblem points.
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@Volfawott said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/317/2CUWAP3GEIL9.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/415/U39RFS4V10YJ.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/090/UIHLT7YYDX7B.jpg
The Xbox community never fails to impress
I get accused of Lag Switching in 75% of the games I win.
Anyways, I stopped caring about that and just killed them with kindness 😁🤗
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@Aven_Fallen said:
gg = just after a game, when it was a nice game
ggwp = when the Killer really impressed me and was playing fair and really good
ggez = when Match gets cancelled, lol
Then what does...
ggezpz = ?
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The Evil Survivor
Dark Devotion
Budget Decisive Strike
Second Wind
Mettle of Man's Waifu
Breakout
I Have The Force
Iron Grasp
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The Hatch King
Left Behind -
Darn, it was so obvious and I couldn't guess it XD
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@EnderloganYT said:
I'll try
Medkits are for Pu-I mean weaklings
Self Care
a Dwight-mare
Iron Maiden
if you use this without an ouchie build you're wrong
No Mither
I see you on that b o n e
Thrill of the hunt (TBH very underrated)
how'd I do?
I like the A Dwight-Mare perk, it was awesome! :)
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Trick or Treat
Hex: Haunted Grounds -
@Unironicalygoth said:
Bro I got out I broke the game and got thru the wraith
Awesome, did you report them for griefing?
Did you also record them?
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@dnj510 said:
Ok, um
Perk: I see my escape
Windows of Opportunity.
Perk; I see your escape, too.
Zanshin Tactics
How'd I do?
Darn, I couldn't guess the first two!
I thought the first one was:
Left BehindEven after seeing the first one, I couldn't guess the second one! I feel so silly now! 😂
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@Unironicalygoth said:
I have a video I can't post it
Don't post it — the forums have a naming and shaming policy. 😏
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@Unironicalygoth said:
This wraith has everybody blocking me for 30 minutes now what do I do
DC and report them for griefing. 😊
I know, DCing is bad, but there are very few scenarios where it's acceptable to DC — this is one of them because someone is taking the game as hostage and you need to get to the tally screen to report all offenders.
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I'll go first...
The BBQ Nerf
Distortion
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@Bill_I_Am__Overbeck said:
Wouldn't these two perks combo together? Nope!
I tried it out and instead I get downed and lose the medkit and both addons, neither of them triggered. What a fantastic idea!
Here's what my brain is telling me what would happen if you combo these add-ons:
You get the Endurance status effect that will protect you from entering the dying state by putting you into the Deep Wounds status effect on hit.
Meanwhile, the syringe will automatically remove the Deep Wound status effect after 16 seconds — without the need of you mending, but you will stay in the injured state. If you're not Deep Wounded, you will heal to the healthy state assuming you didn't change health states.
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@Fibijean said:
I like the overall idea, I just have a couple of thoughts.
Firstly, a fairly minor thing, while I can see your reasoning for separating the skill check, I think from the perspective of a new player who doesn't understand how they work, it might be more confusing and also make it harder for them to learn to hit great skill checks because doing so is more risky. Skill checks are one of the most frustrating things already for new survivors, so for that reason I think they should be left as they are.
As I said, I like the idea of the fuse boxes in general, but I think you should come up with a different way of activating them. As Elk hinted, a lot of people don't find maths fun or aren't very good at it, and so having a mechanic like that in DBD would just be frustrating and annoying for those people. Especially when you're trying to concentrate on mental arithmetic while paying attention to your surroundings and keeping an eye out for the killer. It may be boring, but I think there are good reasons why generators are as un-engaging as they currently are.
Firstly, a fairly minor thing, while I can see your reasoning for separating the skill check, I think from the perspective of a new player who doesn't understand how they work, it might be more confusing and also make it harder for them to learn to hit great skill checks because doing so is more risky. Skill checks are one of the most frustrating things already for new survivors, so for that reason I think they should be left as they are.
Separating skill checks are supposed to make skill checks more skillful. You shouldn't be able to hit greats every time you get a skill check because the boost it provides makes a huge difference on generators.
If beginners are having problems going for greats, they should simply stick to hitting regular skill checks until they got the basics down. Good repair skill checks' success zone, as you may seen, are increased to give beginners more room for error and should make their experience less frustrating.
As I said, I like the idea of the fuse boxes in general, but I think you should come up with a different way of activating them. As Elk hinted, a lot of people don't find maths fun or aren't very good at it, and so having a mechanic like that in DBD would just be frustrating and annoying for those people. Especially when you're trying to concentrate on mental arithmetic while paying attention to your surroundings and keeping an eye out for the killer. It may be boring, but I think there are good reasons why generators are as un-engaging as they currently are.
Fuse Boxes are the survivor's last objective, and the killer's last defense until survivors can begin to open the Exit Gates. They should require more skill and focus than the objective before it because of that. Furthermore, they can be finished quite fast once players get the basics down, so it should be difficult/risky to complete a Fuse Box as compensation.
That may sound contradicting since the whole purpose of Fuse Boxes are supposed to give the killer time and make the survivor objective more fun. However, it's not the Fuse Boxes that gives the killer more time, it's the time survivors spend traveling the map is what gives the killer more time to do their objective. Subjectively, survivors have more fun, while the killer gets more time.
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@NoShinyPony said:
@NMCKE When you say the survivor should not get punished because the others might have dc'ed etc., you are also saying that the killer should get punished in any case. Even if the last survivor wasn't at fault: Why should the killer get punished because some survivors decide to dc?
Why should the killer get punished, and not the survivor? Why is the survivor in this case more important than the killer?
And no, I usually don't win a game with a 3k. It's usually a safe pip or a depip, the game rates this performance as a loss.
Just focusing on the survivor side of the EGC, I already covered the killer side in a previous comment.
I don't think the survivor should get Exit Gates on the same wall because you minus well not have an EGC and just have the Entity sacrifice you after the killer closes the hatch (9/10 times they find it first).
I think the killer should work just a little harder than just standing still, that's really all I been saying. If I worked hard but my teammates didn't pull their weight, I feel like I'm entitled for a chance, not a free, (to) escape.
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@Apple2o said:
The best head trap kill build is a 5th box and the tampered timer. I think the crate of gears wastes about as much time as the tampered timer, but fast timer kills them off 30 seconds~ faster whereas a crate of gears makes searching the boxes 30~ seconds longer. So they do about the same, but fast timer the survivor is dead much faster.
You can try putting on huntress lullaby as well for it, but it won't work against really good players.
Well, killing the survivor with a RBT is a bonus, but I'm just curious if my combo in my thread title is worth running for stalling purposes.
There will be 6 Jigsaw Boxes and the RBT timer will be 2:50 😊
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@NoShinyPony said:
@NMCKE So the killer should get punished when at least 75% of the team played poorly, instead of one of the survivors?
Because on some maps it's impossible to "defend" exit gates without Whispers. So even if the killer finds the hatch first, it doesn't matter.
So the killer should get punished when at least 75% of the team played poorly, instead of one of the survivors?
Like I said, we don't know how the killer won because there are many unfair variables such as DCs, hook suicides, and poor teammates.
I remember using Kindred, doing a generator as 75% of my team fed a camping LF and soon after, they all DC'd (I have the video but can't post it on the forums for obvious reasons). Therefore, would it be fair for the killer to get a 4K just because he outplayed 75% of my team? I don't think the killer should be rewarded with an automatic 4K because I had no control of my teammates.
Besides, by the developers standards, you won the game by getting a 3K so you're not getting punished at all. The only thing that's punishing you is the ranking system, but most players don't care about rank anyways. The developers should give the killer "Mercy" points in the devout category if the last survivor escapes through the hatch or Exit Gates during the EGC.
Because on some maps it's impossible to "defend" exit gates without Whispers. So even if the killer finds the hatch first, it doesn't matter.
This only applies to indoor maps because I versed a lot of killers in KYF to see what maps are troublesome for certain roles. I agree indoor maps need to have their Exit Gates spawn on the same wall due to the map design.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1010045#Comment_1010045
Oh I agree Billy has counterplay.
Awesome, I thought you was trying to argue the opposite! 😁
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009871#Comment_1009871
Less time than other killers. He's not an m1 killer.
I'm simply telling OP that Billy is fine and has counterplay.
Your opinion of Billy being an M2 killer doesn't change my opinion of him being a balanced killer.
If you want to change my mind and discuss this topic with me, you have to give me more reasoning than that. :P
Where's your counter points? Any facts to backup your points? Tell me why I am wrong and let's see if we can have a fun little debate here!
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@underlord99 said:
He is the only instadown killer that doesnt have a slower movement speed , plus with the way exit gates spawn i feel like he is almost unbeatable(like I said this is how I feel , I am more than willing to have my mind changed). I really want someone to change my mind.
Okay, for starters, if you're near a pallet or vault, he cannot down you from the healthy state unless you were caught out of position.
Another thing, his chainsaw has strict turning capabilities. If he's not directly on your back, you can make a prediction to avoid his chainsaw by memorizing his chainsaw's charge time.
Finally, he can be looped, which automatically makes him hard to play against survivors who can run a killer. I recommend facing a decent group of survivors and see how long it takes to down a competitive looper. You will down that survivor, but you likely wasted a lot of time doing so. 😊
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@NoShinyPony said:
I agree that an escape in this case is undeserved. If the hatch wouldn't spawn, we would need an additional mechanic to prevent the last survivor from hiding somewhere on the map & making the match endless.
However, I'm also realistic and know that this is not going to happen.
Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to @ you Peanits.
I have mixed feelings about this because the killer could have won in an unfair scenario for the survivors.
- Survivors DC'd or hook suicide
- 75% of the team played poorly
Also, I don't like the idea of outplaying 75% of the survivor team means you outplay 100% of the survivor team. You're not supposed to 4K everytime you get a 3K because it just not right in my opinion.
To give a comparison for killer players, imagine if the survivor team completed 4 generators. Well, they outplayed you for 4 generators so the game should automatically complete the 5th generator.
However, I'm not complaining, I would prefer the game ends rather than have what Peanits call it, "Hide and Seek World Championship" That's why I have mixed feelings because it's necessary, but in some situations, completely unfair for both sides.
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@Hoodied said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1009816#Comment_1009816
Its those things that lay around every where
Nurse: "Many survivors tell me I'm hacking, but anyways, thanks for telling me what a pallet is!"
NMCKE doesn't encourage hacking! -
Nurse: "Can someone tell me what a pallet is?"
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@HazeHound said:
Why nerfing second wind??? It is good as it is now, if ppl don't use them its their business. Ill give you best example: Kindred, since release it was literally the best perk in entire game. If all survivors had it, it was 4 minute game most of the time. Devs buffed it twice and its now ridiculously strong, you don't need others to have it now. People still don't give a crap. Their business.
I agree that mettle of man is ######### now. But what you proposed is even stronger than it was on realease and it didn't take long to nerf this bullshit for a reason. Your version is ridiculous and would create avalanche of iridescent hatchet huntresses and mori Billies. Since its obsession perk it should work best on obsession so i would suggest: it takes 3 hits for the obsession to active the perk, it take 3 distraction hits for non obsessions.
Your version of Dying Light is ever worse than it is now. Just no, it already is a ######### perk.
Why nerfing second wind??? It is good as it is now, if ppl don't use them its their business. Ill give you best example: Kindred, since release it was literally the best perk in entire game. If all survivors had it, it was 4 minute game most of the time. Devs buffed it twice and its now ridiculously strong, you don't need others to have it now. People still don't give a crap. Their business.
Second Wind got a huge buff in my opinion if you're skilled at mind games and run killers extremely well. Another thing is you can activate the perk an infinite number of times while before its activation was limited by how many hook states you have.
Yes, lasting longer than 75 seconds in a chase is hard, but you have to consider that you're going to be getting a heal during a chase.
Besides, if you can convince me why I should run Second Wind over Decisive Strike, then I'll happily change my mind about how weak Second Wind is. 😁
I agree that mettle of man is [BAD WORD] now. But what you proposed is even stronger than it was on realease and it didn't take long to nerf this bullshit for a reason. Your version is ridiculous and would create avalanche of iridescent hatchet huntresses and mori Billies. Since its obsession perk it should work best on obsession so i would suggest: it takes 3 hits for the obsession to active the perk, it take 3 distraction hits for non obsessions.
Not really, the perk requires you to take damage from the killer and heal up to full without entering the dying state in the process. That might be easy if the killer is trying to damage everyone such as Legion or Plague, but most killers benefit from you healing because you're wasting a lot of time by not doing generators and giving them pressure.
Worst case scenario, chase is extended by 20 seconds and that could hurt you. Maybe if you're very unlucky, they can use those 20 seconds to escape, but I don't expect that to happen very often. The counterplay is to make sure you win the chase as the killer, don't let the survivor escape and heal up — the perk is controlled by the killer. 😁
Your version of Dying Light is ever worse than it is now. Just no, it already is a [BAD WORD] perk.
Can you tell me why? It would be more helpful than just saying, "It's terrible, no please". 😊
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I want to see, the percent value of all players out of total players who completed the Rift. 😁
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@Bigbootiejudy666 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1006044#Comment_1006044
It could´ve been DIAMOND but it´s too situational and barely works
Doesn't have to be used to get a 4K, but if the survivors are somewhat greedy — you can get some nasty sacrifices! 😊
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@Bigbootiejudy666 said:
I think you guys don´y need explaining on the tiers. BTW I forgot about Coulrophobia, I would put in between Agitation and Knock Out in the sliver tier
Blood Warden is paper? You got to be kidding me because that perk can literally swing 0Ks into 4Ks if the survivors are greety! 😊
Don't believe me? Take a look of this!
NMCKE playing Dead by Daylight: Special Edition. View more XboxOne clips at XboxClips.com -
Done @DexyIV! 😊
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@DexyIV said:
Second Wind: The perk is honestly fine as is in game already. This iteration of it is like Adrenaline but can be activated in the middle of the chase. Not a good idea. All you'd need to do once you get it activated in chase is go to one of the massive loops where the killer basically can't get you, and it's a free heal in the middle of the chase.
Mettle of Man: Okay this is even better than its release iteration. Way too easy to activate. Getting hit and then healing up is not a difficult thing to do. There's no way to balance this perk to be a free hit and be balanced. It needs to stay in this unviable state.
Dying Light: This seems worse than the current Dying Light. As it stands, Dying Light isn't powerful at all. The obsession isn't affected by it, and you only get stacks from hooking survivors that aren't them. So you hook a survivor for a stack, and get in a chase with a survivor that isn't the obsession for another stack. What does that leave? A survivor that is affected by the small amount of slowdown the perk offers and the obsession that isn't affected at all. With this iteration, you don't even have that one person being affected by Dying Light because they stay immune to it for so long. Not a good idea either
Edit: Accidentally hit the post comment button, will @ you when this comment is finished! 😁
The perk is honestly fine as is in game already. This iteration of it is like Adrenaline but can be activated in the middle of the chase. Not a good idea. All you'd need to do once you get it activated in chase is go to one of the massive loops where the killer basically can't get you, and it's a free heal in the middle of the chase.
It's not a free heal, you must heal someone else the equivalent of a health state to get this perk to activate, and you won't always have a chase longer than 75 seconds — you will have to leave the semi-infinite eventually or get caught in a weak tile. The killer can just Bloodlust you in 75 seconds if they really wanted to, so overall, 75 second chase isn't always doable.
If you get it to work, you'll suffer a healing penalty towards other survivors and yourself.
Besides, why run Second Wind over Decisive Strike?
Okay this is even better than its release iteration. Way too easy to activate. Getting hit and then healing up is not a difficult thing to do. There's no way to balance this perk to be a free hit and be balanced. It needs to stay in this unviable state
It's not supposed to be too difficult to activate the perk because it only extends the chase by 20 seconds — the perk will down the survivor after using their free health state in 20 seconds. This perk should be used to trade hooks or tank hits for other survivors (hopefully the killer won't switch to you).
Besides, the current Mettle of Man is extremely buggy and the protection hits often don't help your team. Therefore, having to take damage and escape the killer to heal seems more plausible, and the reward is smaller to compensate.
This seems worse than the current Dying Light. As it stands, Dying Light isn't powerful at all. The obsession isn't affected by it, and you only get stacks from hooking survivors that aren't them. So you hook a survivor for a stack, and get in a chase with a survivor that isn't the obsession for another stack. What does that leave? A survivor that is affected by the small amount of slowdown the perk offers and the obsession that isn't affected at all. With this iteration, you don't even have that one person being affected by Dying Light because they stay immune to it for so long. Not a good idea either
With this version, with 6 hooks, all survivors that's not near the Obsession will suffer a 30% penalty, unlike before it was 18% penalty.
The Obsession making themselves and all survivors immune to Dying Light can work in your favor because survivors are more efficient when they are separated from each other. They repair slower, give you the ability to distract multiple survivors, and gain a lot of pressure — definitely would make this perk more viable if used correctly!
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1004973#Comment_1004973
The first formula is Thana with 4 stacks only. The second is Sloppy only. That's 2 perks for either formula.
I use Dying Light, Thana, and Sloppy on my main Spirit build. Even against SWF on comms, where they group up to heal, it is DEVASTATING. Like utterly destroys their ability to rush objectives. The fact they have to group up to heal just means less time on gens and a greater chance I can get multiple stacks of Thana if I catch them healing. Plus the moment I hit someone again, I reset all that time they put into healing. I don't think anyones ever escaped this build, maybe someone got hatch here and there, but these 3 perks in combination is really really oppressive. More oppressive than having 3 Ruins and NOED.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1004976#Comment_1004976
But what happens is the obsession starts to only heal/save other survivors. That means they are not doing gens. They get sucked into this vortex of running from hook to hook spending all their time healing while the others suffer an increasing debuff for each hook.
Like I get that when you see "3% per stack" it seems like nothing, and it is for a single stack, but the percentages add up and eventually start to really impact survivor progress.
You have to look at the game as a whole and not at individual actions the survivors do. If you look at it like individual actions it seems weak and may feel weak. But if you look at it over the course of the entire game, all those little bits of time add up and you end up realizing "hey they lost like a full minute of time due to all this, and now I have 1 dead, 3 on death hook, and 2 injured with 2 gens left where none of the gens left have progress over 25%". That's an easy win. Survivors aren't getting to the gates there.
I don't think the Obsession will do a survivor hunt for heals if they are affected by Dying Light.
Generators are a priority and most survivors don't heal anyways due to the "Injured Meta".
Don't get me wrong, as the DL Obsession, I will heal a survivor if they happen to find me on a generator. However, I don't think any DL Obsession survivor will throw the game by purposely going for heals and unhooks. I tend to run Kindred to help me know when I have the right-of-way for the unhook, and even if you don't run Kindred, using context clue will help you know when it's appropriate for you to start making saves and heals.
Imagine this scenario:
You find a survivor and down them. Let's pick a mediocre situation for the killer since not all survivors are super efficient, so a generator was completed on first hook.
There's likely progress on the next generator...
Since there's a 3% penalty in effect by Dying Light, Dying Light is approximately adding 2 seconds to the generator that's being worked on.
Okay, by some miracle, you stopped the survivor just in time before they completed the second generator — Dying Light made that difference.
You kick the generator and chase the next survivor by following their scratch marks. During chase, that generator is completed.
You didn't get any value from that perk at all because you wasted time kicking a generator that you minus well say is completed while the survivor that you chased next got a lot of distance on you. Besides, since generators can done extremely fast, I heavily doubt 2 seconds will make a difference in the majority of your games.
Now, if you was use PGTW, 20 seconds will pack a huge punch. There have been many games where I'm repairing a generator then the killer comes along and uses PGTW on it. Now, I'm trying to complete a generator the killer knows to keep using PGTW on if they can manage to get another hook.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1004939#Comment_1004939
If the obsession is spending time healing, they are not doing gens. You actually want this, because the best counter to DL is to have the obsession focus solely on gens.
The percentages add up. At first it won't be much but once you get to 4 stacks the survivors will really feel it. If you have other slow down perks you can increase this effect. If you have Pop, every kick on a gen actually takes off more and more time. When we are talking about a game where literal seconds matter, increasing gen time by just 8 seconds is enough to change the pace of the game.
If you got 6 stacks, yes the game is basically over, but now you're locked down the win assuming there are still gens left to do. It will be very difficult to finish gens, which means they don't get to the gates. This is the thing killers always seem to overlook. To most killers, a perk like this is only valuable if they can get the 4k with 5 gens left. But if you 4k with 1 gen left isn't that just as good? You stopped them from escaping and killed them all. This is part of the reason I like the changes to Gatekeeper since now you are rewarded more for this type of play. You don't need to care as much about how many gens get done. As long as 5 gens aren't done, you are winning.
Also NOED is a trashy perk for slowing the game. My SWF groups regularly take out all 5 totems before end game, and in the few games we didn't we managed to find the totem quickly enough that it didn't matter (at most the killer caught 1 person before it was destroyed). It's not at all effective against good survivors. DL slows down the game, which is effective against any level of survivors and gives you more time to pressure them. High rank killers should never rely on NOED honestly.
The Obsession is saving time by healing other survivors in my opinion, that's 4 seconds they are saving compared to the other survivors who, without the help of items or perks, will take longer than the typical healing time. I'm not saying all DL Obsessions should do a survivor hunt for heals, but if they are causally doing a generator and an injured survivor comes along. They saved time equal to the difference in healing speeds between the Obsession and the other survivors, which, to simplify things, can be around 4 to 8 seconds saved every heal.
If the Obsession is doing generators, like you said, there's not much you can do about that because hooking them won't net you anything from Dying Light.
Like I said, Dying Light isn't bad, but when you see the other perks you can use to slow the game down, that's when you see why Dying Light isn't used as much. 😊
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1004912#Comment_1004912
Debuffs scale faster than buffs. Let's take your numbers. 6 stacks of Dying Light (18% debuff) and the guy has a toolbox (20% buff).
80/(1+0.2)*(1-0.18)) = 81.3s
So even though the buff is a greater value than the debuff, the debuff actually overtakes the buff and you do the gen slower. This is because of the fact debuffs are multiplicative while buffs are additive.
Here's a few other things:
- Only 3 survivors are affected by DL.
- You must ignore the Obsession (they will be pressured the least).
- 18% can only be earned by hooking 6 survivors who aren't your Obsession.
- By the time you hook 6 survivors, the game will likely be over. The 18% will only be useful for long drawn out games.
- The Obsession can heal survivors in approximately 12 seconds (not a huge problem in my opinion).
It's not that the perk is bad, Dying Light just isn't a great option for slowing the game down when you have No One Escapes Death and PGTW. The perk doesn't offer as much as the perks I listed above — that's the problem in my opinion.
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@Sentry said:
I was curious
Dying Light is not that good in my opinion because at most, you will get 6 hooks before you start sacrificing survivors or hooking the Obsession.
6 times 3 is equal to 18% penalty for the survivors.
To give a comparison, 20% increases generators to 100 seconds from 80 seconds, and healing times to 20 seconds from 16 seconds.
If the developers increased Dying Light to 2%/3%/4% for every hook that's not the Obsession, then it might be good enough to run by itself — currently you need a perk synergy to get great effect from Dying Light. Even then, you would be better off running PGTW since it removes 20 seconds from generators for every hook (assuming you use it everytime). With 6 hooks, you removed 120 seconds for generators — that's a generator and a half worth of progress halted. 😁
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@Carlosylu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1004447#Comment_1004447
I love where this post got to, it's nice to know this kind of things!
Of course, if you keep being a great influence on the forums and participate in discussions in a civilized manner, I can almost guarantee you will eventually get selected as FUotM.
However, Trusted Members are selected more carefully and you must he FUotM to become Trusted, as mentioned by @MandyTalk. 😁
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1004184#Comment_1004184
Boss became trusted when I did.
Oh yeah, sorry @Boss!
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1004104#Comment_1004104
The Trusted members are chosen by the community team, which I believe includes moderators and Community Managers like Peanits. You can't apply for it, they decide themselves if they want to offer it to you. So just keep up your regular activity, being kind and helpful on the forums, and eventually you may get noticed and invited to join the program 😊 That's pretty much all I did (I'm currently the newest of the Trusted members, having joined the program last November).
I'm first, fight me! >:v
Just kidding, @Elk was the first to get FUoTM.
However, there wasn't a Trusted Member program at the time he got FUotM. The program started somewhere around after I got my FUotM. 😁
I think me, @Elk, and @GrootDude was the first to become Trusted while @Elk was first to get FUotM!
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@Psypho_Diaz said:
So proxy camping can arguably be necessary as survivors often are already in the area waiting to unhook. Especially with a good headgear and the sound of pitter patter near by as you hook.
But I literally just had a doctor sit face to face with his first victim in The first hook of the game until they died which gave us time to do gens (minus his buddy who sat and waited like a potato.
Does some camping on the second survivor he finds, until the 3rd went for the save and then chased him. I fixed 3 gens and cleanse 3 totems. Get downed by NOED and die on hook. Only one made it out alive.
I did my best to get work done while he was occupied but I wasnt running with a tool box and I'm not the best at finding skill checks when they move, but I didn't get to really do anything to earn bloodpoints that match. Altruism was a bunk since the killer sat right in front of his hooks and my only boldness was the totems..... Or standing near the killer which is a water of time.
Not only does face camping destroy the camped survivors fun but greatly hinders the other survivors from getting points as well. At the end of the match the killer some how accured 25k bloodpoints whole the surviving player only got 17k. I was at 13k and again I did majority of the gens. This literally makes it look like the killer is awarded for such a gameplay when he did nothing while everyone else playing smart are penalized. Is it so hard to subtract points from like brutality or hooks when they are 0.1m away from the hook staring at it? Or at least giving the hooked survivor some distraction points (altruism)?
I don't think killers should be able to earn above 15k when they are face camping for so long. It really just ruins the game.
**Post edit after reading some bad commenters**
I'll just keep ruining the game for new players, hopefully the player pool isn't affected. But thanks for defending my choice by saying it's legitimate.
While I agree camping is annoying, you can't blame the killer once the Exit Gates are powered on. 😁