Laluzi
Laluzi
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Same. It can be very difficult to spot temporary auras, like BBQ & Chili or a teammate going down before the killer picks them up. Auras were not created with daytime maps in mind.
Also, corn. Old corn doesn't hold a candle to the super mega ultra deluxe GMO corn they've got growing in Coldwind these days.
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This is just some curiosity-based noodling, so don't really take it seriously or expect it to be balanced, but I wonder if the concept for old Dying Light could work.
I feel like the problem behind this perk's genesis is that they looked at the effects and went "okay, so the survivors have an advantage in the early game, and the killer has an advantage in the late game", without considering that killers would just bum rush the activation clause, and that a 25% gen speed reduction is totally redundant on a team that's down a man that early. Like nobody at the team stopped to ask themselves how the perk would be used, because the answer's really obvious.
My first thought is that it'd work if the killer didn't know who the obsession was, but that'd still encourage tunneling; either you 1/4 get the right person and they're screwed, or you remove someone from the game early and win anyway.
So... what if, instead of the Obsession being the designated healer, they're now the track superstar? Remove the altruism buff. The Obsession now has a 5% base movement speed buff and produces no scratch marks. When unhooked, they're restored to full health, granted the Endurance state for 5 seconds, and move at 150% speed for 5 seconds.
So the killer is rewarded for removing one player from the game early, but that player is undisputably the most difficult to remove. I still see major issues issues with forcing one survivor into a role, because F in chat if you wanted to do anything else that game, and the game is still immediately doomed if the Obsession is a potato, but in general they would be able to consume way more of the killer's time before going down, and the perk could end up losing the killer the game if the Obsession role happens to go to a very skilled player, or one who brought the right perks for it.
Like I don't actually think this is a good idea or want this in the game, but it's still food for thought. Could you ever balance the concept?
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New Dying Light is pretty bad - it only has any effect when you're already winning the game and doesn't help you when/if you need it. Add in that it helps one player and the effect doesn't even apply to the player who's supposed to stay alive the longest, and all tokens disappear when you remove that player, and yeah, it's awful. I've only ever gotten use from it on games I intentionally 2-hooked everyone before killing them, because everyone was still alive for the endgame slowdown.
But Old Dying Light was pretty terrible design. Alongside having an anti-synergy with Myers' other perks, it straight-up encouraged you to remove one specific player from the game ASAP, and then everyone else was super boned for the rest of the game. No perk should encourage that. I think it's a bit of a shame that every obsession perk nowadays is built around leaving your obsession alone or abandoning them after a single hit, since that runs counter to the idea of having an obsession, but Old Dying Light was the perfect example of why the reverse doesn't work.
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@Sabraiz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2285092#Comment_2285092
I got you covered, did it by memory so not 100% and only played it like three times on PTB and twice on live before being disabled.
First Floor
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/R5GCNCFDZG0Z/rpd-1f.png
Second floor
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XJ2L1QZK2566/rpd-2f.png
Those are the possible generator spawns that I know off. Yellow are passageways where you can walk through, Turqoise is drop downs from second floor to first floor. The base map is shamelessly borrowed from RE2 Remake.
Edit: I missed a passageway that goes into the lower part of the Darkroom from the left.
Oh god, thank you. I was looking for a reference guide before it went offline and couldn't find one. Gonna bookmark this on my phone to use when the map goes back online. You're a lifesaver.
I have seen a gen in both the library and the lounge (obviously not at the same time, it was one or the other.)
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Bloodwebs are random, but the game gives you priority towards the upgraded versions of perks you already have. It's worth level 3'ing every perk you have when you have the opportunity and avoiding picking up level 1 perks you don't want. And when you do want it, once you get a level 1 version of a perk, your chances of seeing it again go up.
(I know the feeling. My Leon got a slew of fantastically useful perks when I started his bloodweb - Up The Ante, Open Handed, No Mither, Deja Vu, Solidarity, and Dark Sense...)
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I figured out where four gen spawn locations were before the map got shut down. One more and I might actually be able to complete a game on it.
I progressed a whole hook stage in half of those games because my teammates couldn't figure out how to get to me from their location.
It's beautiful, but so much of a maze that it puts Lery's to shame. At least Lery's has signs from a distance that can be used to find gens. Midwich's main path is quite straightforward. The Game is a maze, but it has so many access points between floors that getting lost is less impactful. RPD wasn't built for DBD gameplay and it shows.
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Same answer as "have you ever played against Huntress?"
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@Edgars_Raven said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2283745#Comment_2283745
Youre right, i forgot about distortion, theyd burn through those tokens pretty fast though wouldnt they? 9 secs is a long time. Its been awhile but i thought if there was something up like nurses calling it burns through the tokens pretty quick?
Nurse's Calling isn't going to see much use in a game where everyone's permanently broken. But survivors are going to burn their 2 remaining Distortion tokens at the speed of light when they're all running Object of Obsession and multiple killer detection perks; Alert is going to hamstring them every time the killer gets rid of a breakable wall or kicks a pallet, or every time they complete a gen. If not by that, then I'm All Ears, Hex: Retribution, and BBQ & Chili will eat them up pretty quick.
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The sheer cruelty of having a full No Mither squad and a whole host of healing perks is staggering. Oof. Botany Knowledge, Self-Care, Second Wind, For the People, Solidarity, Inner Strength, Resurgence, Pharmacy, Autodidact, Blood Pact, We'll Make It, and Bite the Bullet are all worthless. Same with every Exhaustion perk with only Sprint Burst and Head On usable thanks to overrunning conditions. I guess Smash Hit would be possible if you pallet camped...
Survivors would have a great info game, though! Empathy would end up being a permanent view on the team, Open Handed buffs every aura perk around, and totems would pretty much get melted between the three totem finder perks. Obviously Kindred is Kindred, but Dark Sense and Alert are pretty slept-on killer aura reads, though unfortunately Object of Obsession is also a thing and this means the killer sees you too. Oops. Survivors also have a godly chance of jumping off the first hook between Slippery Meat + Up the Ante and Deliverance.
I think in this mode, survivors would not work on gens at the start of the match. While Lethal Pursuer gets wrecked by Distortion, Corrupt Intervention is active, Ruin/Undying with Surveillance and Tinkerer is brutal, and Devour Hope is out there somewhere. DH 3 stacks isn't dangerous against a No Mither squad, but hex totems gotta go before moris become a thing, and getting Ruin/Undying/Crowd Control/Lullaby/Third Seal out of the way is important too. Third Seal is actually quite good, because survivors have an incredible aura game otherwise. Nobody cares about Haunted Ground.
Everyone hard counters Stridor between Iron Will and No Mither. It's gonna be a dead silent kind of game unless you're Plague or Nemesis. Spirits weep. Lucky Break helps stealth in the first minute of the match but burns itself out immediately after because it can't be preserved in any way.
Nobody has any fecking idea what the yellow gen means.
Slugging is completely impossible. Every survivor has No Mither + Unbreakable + Soul Guard for fast self-pickups that grant Endurance, Tenacity to heal on the go, Flip Flop to wiggle off if you delay picking them up for any reason, and Power Struggle to bonk you with a pallet if you're foolish enough to let them reach one.
Killers would have some conflicting perks (Distressing + Monitor and Abuse), but nothing to the same extent as survivors; there aren't many self-harmful killer perks. Maybe Predator and Distressing, but that's it. ToTH would be nice but ultimately get slaughtered by Counterforce and there just being too many hexes to protect. Exposed perks are all useless, but none of the injured survivors can use Dead Hard and so only have the one health state in chase. This game's brutally slanted in favor of the killer - they can't camp, tunnel, or slug without getting counterperked, but they don't really need to when survivors can't heal and their gen regression/info perk game is immense. All survivors are running OoO, so the killer actually gets an aura read whenever they kick something, in addition to BBQ + Bitter Murmur + A Nurse's Calling + Discordance + Tinkerer + Surveillance + Thrilling Tremors + I'm All Ears. Plus the killer has Enduring/Spirit Fury/Brutal Strength/Fire Up, so pallets aren't going to bother them much. Bamboozle + Crowd Control are both there to mess up windows. Survivors don't really have a lot of options in evading the killer; Sprint Burst will typically eat their exhaustion slot, though they do have locker plays with Q&Q, Red Herring, and Deception. With Deception's cooldown and Head On, lockers might become a major part of chase evasion due to the ambiguity of whether a sound effect was real, whether survivors even produce a sound effect, or whether survivors are trying to bait you... but you can't sneak away after you've lost the killer, because they have Iron Maiden and you'll scream on exiting. There's also pebble play, though pebbling a random spot is not convincing in this mode because the killer knows nobody is healing; you'd have to pebble vaults, lockers, and gens.
Survivors have fast gen speeds between Stakeout, Fast Track, Resilience, and Prove Thyself, but Prove Thyself is hard countered by Discordance. At the same time, Tinkerer will destroy solo gen progress. The dominant strategy, once Ruin/Undying is gone, might be 69%ing a gen on your own, then having several people pile on and rush the last 30%. I'd suggest trying to miss great skill checks to save Fast Track for crunch time, but Stakeout is going to force them.
The sheer number of things that would happen when a killer kicks a gen would be kind of ridiculous. Gen loses 25% progress, 3 other gens start regressing, gets marked with Eruption, Dragon's Grip, and Overcharge, the gen aura turns white until it's next touched, and the killer becomes Undetectable.
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Nemesis's chase theme is such a banger. I think it's my favorite of the lot (previously that honor went to Blight.) Deathslinger still kills it with his terror radius while Nemesis's doesn't have quite enough of a scaled buildup for my tastes, but once he spots you and it kicks into high gear? God this track is epic. 10/10, would be chased all day.
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@Decarcassor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2283201#Comment_2283201
Well the hindered effect from Nemesis's Infection last for 0.25 seconds, wich is worthless. Could it be what is happening here too ? Could they have made Clown's bottles also only last for 0.25s ? 🤔
I strongly suspect this is, if not the case, at least strongly related, and they somehow mucked up the values for Hindered across the board instead of giving Nemesis a separate application.
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Wait, are people actually genuinely defending the state of Clown now that he's lost 90% of his power? I thought they were sarcasm posting...
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I wonder if Hindered got screwed with when they applied it to Nemesis's tentacle? I'm scratching my head as to how this could have happened to Clown, of all the things. Kind of like how pallets got completely borked when they released Smash Hit.
I had a Clown daily today and bombed hard... glad to know that it was maybe only 80% my fault instead of 100%.
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I think the suggested time on the secondary objective is a little too steep - making survivors move across the map and spend totem cleansing time destroying 5 new objectives is pretty severe in a game where every second counts. I mean, I'd like more slowdown in this game, match speeds can be absurd, but this would turn already oppressive hex combos even more oppressive (see Ruin/Undying, and Devour Hope's sneak attack effect where survivors don't search for totems until they're in major danger.)
It meshes oddly with the real issue, which is that totem spawns are wildly inconsistent and range from out in the open/right next to survivor objectives, and Where's Waldo levels of diabolical stealth.
When a survivor spots your totem, it's basically done for. Only exception is if the survivor is a solo and you kill them before they can do it or show teammates. You can be guaranteed that as soon as they know where your totem is, they're going to head for it the instant you give them an opportunity. Adding another objective that has to be done adds a flat timer to its lifespan, but that doesn't account for whether this was as the camera was panning while the survivor loaded in, or at a healthy four minutes into the match, or as the killer was bearing down on the team with Devour Hope and nobody else is in a position to cleanse the last two statues across the map, a detour which is going to see those two teammates moried and likely you as well. And for solos especially, it could become very nasty in conjunction with an already well-hidden hex with an unignorable effect (DH, Ruin + Tinkerer)
I would tentatively be down for this as a perk a killer could bring, similar to ToTH or Undying for hex protection, but I'm not keen on it as a base mechanic. Maybe if these statues crumbled over time, like very slowly completing themselves and adding progress to their bar until they straight-up break at X minutes in. Hexes getting wrecked at the very start of the game is a problem, but hexes that last well into the game don't need additional protection.
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@Sabraiz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2282658#Comment_2282658
I don't understand peoples complaints with Shelter Woods, what's wrong with it? Large dead zones? What do you expect from the second largest map in the game, to have the same pallet density as the smaller maps? Do you even get how horrible that would be in the other direction?
In my experience there is about the same number of pallets on the maps as other maps, just that the map is super large so the distance between pallets is larger, i.e. lower pallet density. Oh, the killer can see you from far away? The majority of killers still have to waste so much time walking across the map to get to you, just spread out and you can waste a lot of the killers time just walking.
Shelter Woods has extremely weak pallets, high visibility from across the map, zero loopable structures besides the jungle gyms and shack, non-chained structures, mostly exposed gens, and no main building. The large size doesn't end up being much help to survivors when the killer has an unobstructed walk from every point A to point B; there's no walls or buildings in the way. Chases are generally very short on this map due to the lack of resources.
The other two main buildingless bland maps have more going for the survivors - Wrecker's Yard has more pallets, loops, and hiding spots, and Rotten Fields has corn to block LoS and more chained jungle gyms in my experience.
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@RockScorpion384 said:
They get:
infinite pallets
infinite windows
infinite loops
stuns
blinds
speed boosts
fast gen speeds
how much more hand holding do these kids need. Literally about to uninstall this trash game already due to how much bias there is to 1 side. Give killer more power ffs
@[Deleted User] said:
Survivors are too weak and oppressed in a game where the killers have every advantage. This game is very killer-sided, the objective is impossible to complete against killers running Ruin/Undying/Pop, regression perks are in immediate need of nerfs, many killers have broken add-ons that bolster their powers to formidable levels. Maps are very killer-sided, too small and too prone to deadzones. Survivors have been nerfed constantly, we are at the point where survivors are merely entertaining the killer, killers who get effortless 4Ks on a silver platter.
These two posts, when placed side by side, sum up the DBD forums in their entirety. An aggrandized duality, ever-raging around an unmeetable center. Yin and yang. It's beautiful, in a way.
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I'm really glad they reduced the cooldown of Eruption into something that makes it actually viable. I'd like to see the same for similar perks, Oppression and Surge being the big ones (and Thrilling Tremors has no reason to have a cooldown at all, imo), but I'm assuming only Eruption was changed because they were reacting to PTB feedback about Nemesis's perks in particular, not killer perks in general.
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It's quite nice, and will help his surprise factor with traps that aren't in obvious locations, but it's not the buff he needed to be viable - he still needs to be able to carry more than one trap at a time, and possibly a change to the collection mechanic.
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@aroell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2282079#Comment_2282079
But there is! For they key to be usable the survivors have to get to a certain point in the game. Don’t let that happen. Pressure gens, please do it. There are plenty of perks to help with that.
For all the survivors to escape with the key they have to do all gens, by the time they have done that you have already lost.
I already told you, preventing those gens from being completed is very difficult against decent survivors/requires total domination because the way the game pans out, the first few gens are freebies for the survivors and the last ones are the ones the killer contests. The killer can only pressure one location at a time, and at the start of the game, 3 survivors are free to sit on gens for as long as the killer hasn't found anyone/the fourth one loops, and all of the map's resources remain to prolong chases. The avalanche begins once the first survivor goes down, and less survivors are free to work on gens between hooks, rescues, and healing.
It's the exact same as telling survivors in an old mori game to just get good and loop better so the killer can't two-hook anyone. Yeah, it's possible if you're way better than the killer you're facing, but it's not something you should expect. Same in reverse. And I would think, with your stances on everything else, you wouldn't be angling for a game where you can routinely expect killers to 4k by 3 gens remaining.
A 4-man escape with a key is irrelevant; the survivors can easily escape through the gates in that case, and there's no salvaging a 4-man gate scenario unless the survivors essentially kill themselves by throwing themselves into hook situation and bungling it up. The killer already lost that game. I'm mainly talking about 3-man escapes, though 2-man escapes are also a problem and available even earlier.
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That might actually be a neat way to encourage people to buy DLCs instead of paying for DBD-original characters with shards. If I didn't have to grind for completionism/just getting the perks I want on every character I use and fight through the bloodweb clutter, I'd seriously consider shelling out the cash instead of my current model of "I'm not paying for that if I can get it for free." As it is, I avoid unlocking many teachables because the bloodweb is painful enough without them.
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@aroell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281998#Comment_2281998
It is a fair argument. You dont need to get them nerfed because you don’t like them.
I'm not going to accept that answer unless/until you refute anything I've said. I'll just continue to reiterate that if the only counterplay you can suggest is not playing the game when you see a key in a lobby, there is no counterplay to keys.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2280506#Comment_2280506
And how is that worse then the current system where they have to check every report manually.
The whole point is to make it go smoother. It's so all those false reports don't waste time anymore.
Probably things like when it sees the words tunneling, camping, teabagging it will just ignore the report.
This system wil make that less likely to happen that an overworked employee just hits the ban button
Problem: people are intelligent.
Reports from players who don't understand the rules can be safely discarded in this system. But say you're a player like the ones on this thread - the ones that know this stuff isn't against the rules and don't care. A player just facecamped you, the first survivor they found, for the whole hook timer, or tunneled you out of the game at 5 gens. You're pissed and wholeheartedly believe that they should be removed from Dead By Daylight, and know that a significant volume of reports can accomplish this, but are aware that the game doesn't agree that your report reason is valid.
Are you going to report them for camping and tunneling, or are you going to report them for harassment instead, or griefing, and just be vague about what that entails? Or maybe you can even blatantly lie and say they were working with a survivor, or hacking, or any other thing that is against the rules but not disprovable by the chat records and conveniently not backed up by the video evidence the game doesn't have?
As soon as people figure out how the autoban system works, players are screwed.
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@aroell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281907#Comment_2281907
Because moris and keys are not the same thing.
They aren't, but in practice they're very similar. They allow the player bringing them to end the game in their favor early.
Keys are dangerous for killers because they become relevant when the killer's power is at its peak. The first few gens are always the quickest to go by, and the killer's ability to find, damage, and pressure survivors increases as the number of gens (and survivors) decreases. Hatch becomes available at the point where the killer is strongest and their early-game setup is paying off. They hard counter 3-gens, as the killer can't guard hatch and gens at the same time, and survivors don't need setup time to open the hatch, so patrolling is pointless. The instant you leave the hatch, all 3 survivors are gone; don't leave the hatch and they do your gens. Same happens if you kill the survivor with the key and then camp the key spot. The best you can do is lose one and close the hatch before the other two get out, and you have to be cleverer than the survivors are to pull that off. The only way a key becomes useless is if the killer overpowers the team before 3 gens were completed, the survivors are solos and there's no coordination or understanding, or if the killer pulls off a 4-man slug before hooking anyone.
Moris let killers end the game early by decreasing the number of hooks necessary to kill survivors, and also hard countering DS/hook trades while encouraging killers to camp hooks (by making it so much easier to tunnel a survivor out of the game.) The only way a mori became useless was when the survivors outmatched/out-strategized the killer to the point where they couldn't even get 2 downs on each survivor, let alone 3, and they didn't manage to remove a player from the game early enough to matter.
They're both bad for the game. They hand a win condition that generally bypasses the other side's efforts unless the other side out-skills them by a massive margin. And while I think Moris are pointless now, that's still better off than where they were. My biggest issue with keys, beyond the lack of a hatch opening sequence, is that you can't remove them from the match. If a key always disappeared when the survivor holding it died, they would be way less of a problem, but as it stands, focusing on that player is pointless when another survivor will just take the key from their corpse and do the same thing. This is why the Franklin's nerf has people up in arms - there was one way to get rid of the key for good and it's gone now.
I still fail to see how "don't play the game against them" is a fair argument for their current state.
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@aroell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281690#Comment_2281690
You can actually just close the game in the loading screen without receiving a penalty, losing addons, offerings or pips. So that is a counter.
"Don't play the game" isn't a counter, it's just refusing to play the game. You could have said the same about moris and told survivors just to force-close the game when they saw the killer burn a mori offering, but that wouldn't have made moris healthy or okay.
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@FrndlyChnswSalzmn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281796#Comment_2281796
It's not free. It does nothing if you aren't infected and if you are then either Nemesis or they already hit you once with a no-damage hit. Three hit downs are not unreasonable, especially when you got yourself stuck in a bad spot due to lack of map awareness. You're not changing my mind on this one; git gud.
Alright, I guess I'll just never do corner room gens, enter rooms with one entrance, get hooked in the basement, or play on indoor maps then.
It does everything if you aren't infected, because you can't get away from the zombie. It doesn't matter what health state you're at; it will keep hitting you until you're downed. There is zero reason for them to maintain collision when hit; no other damaging entity in this game behaves like this. Like, I'd be game for them keeping collision if Nemesis hits you to allow for tag teams, but zombies keeping collision when they hit you is bullshit.
The radius of their moans is nearly irrelevant when in a chase, as your location is changing too fast to react to a periodic sound cue that may not even play during the brief interval you're close enough to hear it. As it is, in a chase with Nemesis, if you turn a corner to run through a room/hallway and find the only other exit is blocked by a zombie, your best bet is to turn around and run straight back into Nemesis, because in practice, it's less dangerous to take a hit from the hulking, nigh-indestructible bioweapon than it is from a basic-######### type zombie.
Don't get me wrong, I love the crazy ######### that Nemesis can get up to with the zombies; the chase one-twos, the DS/wiggle off hard counter, the gens that take 30s longer to complete because the survivor had to play ring around the rosie. And I wish their AI was better so that they'd be more reliable aids for the killer. But the perpetual bodyblocking doesn't make sense to me.
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"When you play Wraith you are missing out on actual fun killers and just are running fast, then you whack."
Speak for yourself, playing Wraith is fun as hell. The speed around the map feels so good and you don't waste time searching for hiding survivors - not because of All-Seeing, I don't run addons on him anymore, but because people don't have enough forewarning to sneak away.
I'll still commit to ordinary chases most of the time, but having to drop a chase doesn't feel punishing on him like many other killers because Wraith is so mobile.
I agree he's a pretty unfun killer to play against in his current state, but that doesn't go both ways.
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This is completely absurd. It should be tentacle hits, or contaminations, or at the very least, 4 tier-ups instead of 4 T3s. Even Myers' requirement isn't that demanding and can be done in a single game.
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Yeah, this was my biggest zombie complaint on the PTB and I'm surprised they haven't done anything about it. A zombie blocking a doorway in a chase, or a zombie wandering down the basement stairs or through the doorway of a closed-off room or gen, is instant death. You can't tank a hit because you can't bypass them. Nothing else in the game behaves like this - it feels like an oversight.
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@CapricornZeus3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2279972#Comment_2279972
Well not saying sore winner killers aren't out there, but you are probably just experience survivors more because there's 4x more of them then killers
That'd be true if I saw 4x more survivor BMs, but it's more like 15x more or 20x more. Survivors being ######### is a really common occurrence whether I'm playing killer or watching my teammates, where killers going out of their way to be pricks is pretty rare in my books.
I think it's because survivors have more avenues to express blatant bad manners than killers do. Many of the things people dislike killers doing are useful for the player doing it, so you can't assume it was to spite you. Survivors have way more freedom of expression. If every killer was Ghostface, things might be different.
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Anyone who BMs the other side after winning is just an ego tripper and a sore winner who isn't happy with victory unless they're rubbing the loser's face in the dirt. Never understood it, never will.
That said... could just be my experience, because it doesn't seem to be yours, but I encounter way more survivors being sore winners than killers. I've encountered some GGEZes and stuff like slugging for the bleedout or hatch fakeouts, but the number of survivors I see being bad sports after winning a match is an order of magnitude higher than killers doing it, if not more. Most killers just silently exit or drop a GG.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/257743/keys-mori
It's absolutely ridiculous how persistent of a complaint keys are from killers. Keys are not a free win, not a "crutch" for survivors either. They are essential against killers capable of stomping survivors with busted builds and broken add-ons. Keys merely level the playing field against these killers, killer mains infatuated with stacking slowdown perks such as Ruin/Undying/Pop and running overpowered add-ons such as Mother-Daughter Ring, Alchemist Ring, Wraith All-Seeing. Survivors struggle immensely against killers running stacked regression perks, and oftentimes keys are their only chance of escaping.
It's funny; you denigrate tunneling in virtually every post I've ever seen you make, but now you suggest it as a way for killers to deal with this perfectly okay item? That doesn't check out to me. Either you have way more tolerance for tunneling than you've suggested, or maybe keys aren't okay?
Anyway, tunneling the survivor with the key doesn't accomplish very much. The key drops to the ground, another survivor will take the key, and now the hatch is available at 1 gen. Franklins was a counter to keys because it could remove the key completely and force survivors to complete the game normally. It wasn't perfect, most SWFs knew how to counter it, but it was something.
Something I'm not sure you realize, because it doesn't sound like you've played killer extensively or at all, is that most of the killer's power comes in the late game. In the early game, nobody is injured or hooked, only one player is being chased, and everyone is free to work on gens. Depending on how the survivors spread out, if they brought toolboxes, and how long the first chase took (as the first chase is the one with the most resources for survivors to burn, and pallets can extend chases massively if used well), 0-3 gens will pop - 0 being the worst case scenario for the survivors and 3 being the best. Then the ball is in the killer's park, as fewer survivors can be on gens once the cycle of being chased/recuperating starts, and there are fewer gens left to work on, meaning a smaller patrol area. The reason a 3-gen is potentially powerful is because it is the smallest possible area to patrol, and unless 4 survivors are still alive, survivors generally can't out-attrition you through the cycle of chasing, unhooking, and working on gens. (If 4 survivors are alive, you can brute force any 3-gen unless you're up against a killer who can hit multiple survivors at once. Totems no longer matter; the killer can't guard the 3-gen and stop you from totem hunting at the same time.) But depending on that first chase, and how many gens popped as a result, the killer is either advantaged or disadvantaged for the rest of the map. As such, and this is the point I'm gearing towards, it is extremely difficult for the killer to prevent the hatch from spawning in the late game, unless the survivors massively screw up in the early game or the killer plays like a ruthless SoB and kills players on their first/second hooks. Because the killer will generally win the match by those later gens, hatch can spawn and enable multiple survivors to escape as early as 2 gens left. 1 gen left, or a 3-gen, is when the killer is the strongest, and a key allows 3 survivors to say 'nah' to this and walk out.
I take a lot of umbrage with your statement that "it's the killer's lack of foresight that allows survivors to complete enough gens and escape through the hatch." First off, you're assuming that killers should be able to kill all the survivors before 1-2 gens left, which is not something that should be expected and only possible against a team that screws up. And again... I do not believe you understand how this works.
Defending a 3-gen and a hatch at the same time is impossible unless the hatch is within the center of the 3-gen. The second you leave the hatch, the survivors will escape through it. There is no charge time for opening the hatch; it isn't something you can interrupt unless you're literally on top of it, and even then, that just means you stop subsequent survivors from escaping. The first guy always gets away unless you can down him before he reaches it - and if survivors have brains, they're going to heal up while you're guarding an objective and then rush it the second they have an opening, so unless you're a killer that instadowns, they aren't even afraid of that, just you closing the hatch before everyone gets out. If you camp the hatch religiously, because this is the only way to stop the mass key escape, the survivors can do your gens, and they also get out. None of your setup earlier in the match matters. This is busted the same way old moris were busted, and believe me, old moris were busted. It was the same principle; bringing an item allowed one side to win the game early, without having to meet the usual milestones of victory.
Like, I've really never cared about keys in my gameplay because I don't care much about 4ks, but everything you're saying here is wrong.
You really need to play some killer or SWF to expand your horizons. This laser focus on solo survivor, and the lack of scope to see that this is not how all matches play out and not the only power balance in the game, is not healthy. You're trying to dictate survivor based on their most disadvantaged form, and refusing to understand that killers need their tools on higher forms of competitive play in order to stand a chance. Should killers be weakened against solos? Maybe. Should killers be weakened uniformly? Hell no; games would become largely unwinnable once you refactored comms and high-end survivor gameplay back into the equation.
Also, Clown? Really? Clown is one of the most mediocre killers in the game. He can end chases easy, but has zero map mobility (theoretically he has some, but if he uses it for mobility, he has no chase power, so no Clowns use it like this.) He can't make use of Tinkerer at all, and Ruin/Undying is useless when you're not present to bother survivors off gens. The reason Ruin/Undying is so powerful on Blight/Spirit/Freddy is because they can be everywhere on a very short timeframe, and constantly interrupt survivors' every attempt to repair. This kind of info is not nearly as harmful on killers that have to walk all the way across the map to reach you.
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While this would be neat, it kind of makes sense for this not to be the case - the Entity plucks anachronistic things and throws them all together. There were no zombie samurai or zombie Russian/German soldiers, because the Entity never took any of those people; there were only the zombies from Raccoon City, and that's what the Entity copied and stuck into trials along with Nemesis.
(I would have loved to see zombified versions of survivors, though, so maybe I can't talk.)
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
Maybe we could remove BBQ's aura-reading ability, but change it to allow 50% BP per hook for a total of 200% extra instead of 25%/100%.
Any objections?
The irritating thing about that is that the perk would no longer serve a purpose beyond bloodpoints. It'd be great bloodpoints, but it'd be a meme perk in and of itself.
Like, as a survivor, I typically don't use WGLF even though it gets bonus boints, because its effect in a match isn't worth a perk slot (and its bloodpoint bonus is less reliable, which doesn't help either.) I use BBQ because it provides a good function and nets me a sweet endgame bonus. I would rather see WGLF buffed than BBQ nerfed in this regard, but that's a bit besides the point.
When killers say they use BBQ for the bloodpoints... killers use BBQ because it's both bloodpoints and an info perk. If it was just an info perk, you would see many more people running different info perks - Discordance, Nurse's Calling, Thrilling Tremors, Bitter Murmur, etc. If it was just a bloodpoints perk, you would likely see less use of it overall, because it no longer fits into builds for players that are playing competitively even if most everyone wants bloodpoints.
I never really understood the problem with BBQ because it's so easy to tell when a killer has it and it's so counterable compared to other info perks; you always have warning before it triggers, so you can dodge it or fool it, or prepare for a chase by scoping your nearby exit points and watching the direction the killer's going to come from, or just hope the killer decides another player is a juicier target. Earlier today I got hatch specifically because the killer had BBQ; I made it look like I was parking myself on a mostly-finished gen, then bolted once the aura read was up. My scratchmarks/blood trails were gone before the killer reached the spot he thought I'd be in, and he stayed in that area for a while trying to figure out where I'd hidden, giving me time to search the map and find hatch. I would not have escaped had we both started searching for the hatch immediately, because it was much, much closer to his initial location than mine.
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@Venzhas said:
Even if its not bannable, camping and tunneling still ridiculous at rank 1, yes. Why you need so much attention to come here to post this ? To me this is the typical "look at me im better than those average mad players ive ruined the experience by playing unsportlike, im so superior" useless shaming ..
It would be if he wasn't making a point with it. If he just wanted to show off a bunch of survivors that got mad, it'd be a "congratulations...?" kind of thread. What he's saying is that look, people will self-righteously report me for things that are within the rules because they don't like how I played, even when they know that they aren't against the rules, and this is bad because the auto-ban system will flag me and possibly take action for volume of reports. And these people know that. And then you have several people on this thread confirming that and espousing that belief - 'okay, so maybe it's not against the rules, but I still think it's unfair and I think players who do them need to be removed immediately.'
It also sounds like he wasn't particularly paying attention to what he was doing, and that any tactics were incidental on his part, not planned. Whether or not he was doing them excessively, at what point in the match he was doing them, and how justified the survivors are for being angry, I can't say (just today I had a teammate tell the killer 'it was a sad day you crawled out of the abortion bucket' not for camping or tunneling, but for not switching targets when a healthy, zero-hooked teammate tried to get in his way to save him. I don't trust anyone to have good judgement in this game until proven otherwise.), but the survivors in the match apparently got 4 gens done, so it wasn't a kiddie slaughter.
People are scared of the autoban system, and this is the main reason why. That's the point.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2278272#Comment_2278272
Play a match of solo survivor and you will realize just how formidable and overpowered the killer is. Survivors stand no chance against killers running a multitude of regression perks that allow them to exert map pressure effortlessly. Many killers have powers that make pallets and windows worthless, broken add-ons that amplify their powers by astronomical proportions.
When the killer has such a ridiculous advantage, why should they still be allowed to exploit camping/tunneling/slugging? The killer makes the game incredibly difficult for survivors as is, they should not be able to prevent us from playing the game even more. Camping/tunneling/slugging are unfair tactics, very unsportsmanlike and worthy of punishment.
I primarily play solo survivor. And yes, I get trashed almost constantly. Vast majority of games, I don't make it out. It was different before I hit red ranks, but red ranked solos are at a severe disadvantage because the killers they're up against are skilled enough to handle survivors with considerably better coordination, so the ones without coordination typically fall apart unless they are most or all skilled enough at looping to buy the rest of the solos enough time. Lower ranks are up against killers that make enough mistakes to skate by, but that's not the case with the cream of the crop.
When I play on comms, with friends who are casual but decently skilled, I perform much better and my escape rate hits a sweet spot of about 50%, and many of my deaths come from sacrificing myself at the endgame when I could have escaped, just didn't want to leave someone behind.
When I play killer, I routinely get paired with survivors that traipse all over me. I do fine against solos and casual SWFs, but there are teams that I feel completely powerless against and no amount of reflection shows me a point where I could have played differently and salvaged the match. When you have several survivors that know exactly how to loop every structure in reach, you will be hard-pressed to down them in time to stop gens.
I'd advise you to play killer in turn, since you seem to believe that killers never need to do any of these because they're very powerful against solos, and some more experience would help dissolve that notion. Your guidelines won't hurt you at low-mid ranks, but at higher ranks, I'd be extremely surprised if you managed to keep up with survivors without slowdown perks and without applying pressure to a single survivor above others, or multiple survivors at once. You'll do fine against solos and get destroyed by skilled SWFs. I don't want to be forced to use tactics that are blatantly unfun to go against, so I stay out of high ranks, but I still get matched against them pretty often. And I run slowdown perks because if I don't run them, and then don't try to remove players quickly or make saves difficult for survivors, all the gens pop in the blink of an eye.
No comment on the addons. I agree some addons are busted, but get the feeling you and I would disagree on which those are and how many of those there are. Again, it doesn't feel like you play very much killer. I'd like to hear about your experiences if you do.
And survivors are able to perform plenty of unfun, frustrating actions in their own right - see sabotage, hook bombing, flashlight saves and firecrackers, bodyblocking, coordinated Head Ons, map offerings and entire team builds dedicated to exploiting that map. There are times where I'm forced to slug 3/4 of the team just to hook one person, and I had no intention of doing that, but they forced my hand because they refused to let me pick a player up if I left them standing. If it's not fun, and creates 5-minute matches where nobody gets any points, why should survivors split up and hammer gens, or 'exploit' powerful loops that the killer cannot defeat in a timely manner? Why should survivors be allowed to flashlight spam, tbag at gates, bodyblock the killer with a protection perk when the killer is blatantly not tunneling and wants to chase someone else, or 99 a gen and then spend ten minutes bullying a killer too far below their skill level to pose a threat? Both sides are trying to win, and some of the tactics they use aren't fun for the other players. I don't enjoy any of it, but I have yet to see a proposed solution for most of these problems that wouldn't completely screw over sportsmanlike players that tactically have no other choice but to do certain things if they want to continue to perform competitively.
Like, I'll (mentally) denigrate a killer who chooses to tunnel a player out of the game at 5 gens, because that suggests to me that they're insecure about their skill, want an easy game, and are kind of a dick. But if a killer wants to remove a player from the game at 2 gens, I can't be mad about it, because that's the smartest thing for them to do to regain control of the match. If a killer didn't have that option, the game would shift drastically in favor of survivors at the higher levels, because killers have far less ability to regain lost momentum and make a comeback if something goes wrong in the early game. Same with 4-man slugging at the start vs 4-man slugging because everyone was running around a hook save, or because it was the only way to stop a gen from popping. The killer's trying to win and has no obligation to humor a survivor that he sees or knows is heading to a certain location; as long as I had a chance to play the game, I won't complain about what tactics they used. And if I physically block the killer and herd my injured teammate out the exit gates, or force a hit with Borrowed Time - I'm sorry, but it wasn't anything personal.
There's no point in telling me that these tactics are mean and unfun. I agree, conditionally (if it's reactive, it's understandable, if it's proactive and the killer's main strategy is to camp players or chase them out of the game ASAP, it's scummy.) When I play survivor, I'm ineffably polite and try to give a free kill to killers who get thrashed, and as killer, I rarely kill anyone and usually play with the survivors instead if I hit the point where I dominate the match and my victory is guaranteed. Unless there is an achievement I want to get, or the survivor went out of their way to antagonize me, I will always pick the nice option over the effective one. But that's just my choice and what makes me happy. The powers that be have decreed that these tactics are all fair within the scope of the game, and you can't change that. Nobody's under any obligation to play considerately, draining as that can be, and personally, I see way more targeted, blatant nastiness out of survivors than I do killers. Even as a survivor. Most of the toxicity I see is from my teammates, not the killer.
I feel like you're only seeing a small portion of the picture and trying to dictate how the whole picture should look using only your subset of experiences. Your proposals would heavily unbalance things on the other side of the seesaw. No, the game isn't balanced right now, but what you're suggesting would not help things, only break them more and ban a large portion of the playerbase for daring to play effectively over compassionately.
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The only times I've been downed by a zombie are when Nemesis was chasing me into them, aka a skillful use of his power, or when I was messing around with the zombie for funsies and it got me.
They're way more useful for ending chases prematurely, or bothering survivors at objectives, than they are for free-roaming health states. Survivors have to be very stupid to get downed by a zombie that isn't interfering with a chase or camping a hook.
My only issue with zombies is that there's no i-frames involved - Nemesis can hit you and a zombie can hit you afterwards for two health states in less than half a second, and zombies can bodyblock you straight into a down because they don't lose collision when they hit you. (They might have fixed the latter point from the PTB, but I didn't see that on their patch notes, so I'm assuming no.)
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2276638#Comment_2276638
That is exactly what this forum does to survivor mains. Our opinions are referred to as “bait”, we are called “trolls” or a “sluzzy” (who, by the way, is a survivor main who is constantly mocked by this forum). It is indicative of entitlement by a killer-dominated forum, and a refusal to hear the truth on their part. They will not acknowledge the overwhelming advantage that they have in this game, through a myriad of cheap tactics, busted perks, and broken add-ons. I can hardly believe my eyes when I read the feedback and suggestions that many of them offer. The survivor playerbase is hanging on by a lifeline, STILL they want every survivor perk and item nerfed. Unacceptable.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2276793#Comment_2276793
Camping/Tunneling/Slugging are poor sportsmanship. When the killers have such an incredible advantage in this game, what need do they have for such nasty tactics? They are carried by their perks, crutching on broken map offerings and busted, outdated mechanics such as bloodlust. It is fully within their power to play fair, if they choose not to do so, that is VERY unsportsmanlike.
Look, I don't like unfun tactics as much as most other players and I'll only ever use them as BM retaliation when I'm playing killer... but you're going to be called out for spreading misinformation. You claimed these things were reportable when it has been long-held and established in the official rules that they are not, and you're still digging in your heels when given proof otherwise.
I also can't really take anyone seriously when they purport that their side is barely hanging on by a thread, the other side has all the power all the time, and that the other side is a monumental great evil that pesters BHVR to give them everything they want and campaigns against widespread fairness to continue to rack up easy wins against the poor, bullied [my side]s. There's balancing issues all around. It's widely understood that killers can stomp solos or non-optimized players, but at the highest levels of play, killers are very much at the mercy of survivors playing optimally. Buffs to killers ######### over solo survivors and buffs to survivors ######### over killers whose ranking puts them up against god squads. When I see people complaining that killer or survivor is too hard... generally, they're both correct and they have valid complaints. But the lack of understanding that the other side has it just as bad is poisonous and just brews the sort of unhelpful, tribal resentment like yours, or the people you rail against, which gets nowhere and helps nobody.
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This is why I'm frightened of the auto-ban system. I don't know the portion of reports that come in from these kinds of people, but I would guess that it's extremely significant judging by how many people seem to think this behavior is in fact ban-worthy. People who camp/tunnel/use unfun strategies that are within the rules are going to get reported to high hell, and if anything, the system is going to galvanize these reporters on the belief that they'll have better chances at removing the players they don't like.
I just don't see how this could possibly go right.
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@Mandy said:
To preserve the image of licenced characters we're often unable to sell additional outfit pieces separately. The outfits released yesterday were always intended to be sets.
That I can understand. It's disappointing, but I get that license negotiation isn't really a field you can argue with and license holders are going to add these conditionals.
That said, Jill's outfit should not have a hair piece included with its 400-cell price tag when it's exactly the same as the default. Her outfit should be two-piece, or reflect a two-piece price tag, if that's what's being provided, and I really hope that's communicated to the team. Leon's head differences may be minor, but it is a different hair style that people would hypothetically buy separately if they preferred the look of it. Jill's is not.
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It does feel a bit strange to me that the T-Virus doesn't actually turn survivors into zombies or progress as a disease in any way - it's the T-Virus, it should be terrifying rather than a minor nuisance - but there is absolutely no way to balance that with vaccines being limited, as cool as that would be.
Though I think death hook survivors going down to zombies having a special mori performed on them would be really cool. It's a rare enough occurrence that I don't think it would change gameplay much; survivors typically don't go down to zombies unless Nemesis chases them into them.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2277666#Comment_2277666
I mean the real question should be how could they not notice before it went live?
60 seconds in a match on any last gen console would have been plenty to show how broken it is atm.
After the last few times why are patches still not tested on consoles before release?
Just 1 person in a room with an old PS4 and 5 minutes of time could not have missed problems of this magnitude, so I guess I have to wonder if they know how bad it is when they release it anyway because rather us have a broken game for days\weeks\months\years than delay the release until its actually polished and ready.
Either way - Not testing patches on the format you are releasing them on, or releasing it anyway despite knowing; it really sucks and keeps happening.
Hell I'll buy the company an old console for next to nothing and ship it so they literally just have to sit someone down to play for a minute or 2, just please no more :'P
For the record, you're absolutely right and I'm not contesting any of this - just that with the kinds of issues that consistently come out with every update, balance-wise and performance-wise, I already didn't have much faith in the amount of playtesting that goes on. Sometimes it feels like the PTB is the only actual playtesting they do, and surprise surprise, that's all PC.
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Didn't unhook a David because the killer was right behind me (to the point where if I tried to unhook, I was probably going to get downed before it completed), I lacked BT, and I figured the other survivor could run and handle the unhook while I took him away - but I messed up on a spin and went down shortly after. The other survivor gets David. David runs up to my hook and just stares at me until I die while survivor #3 is being chased.
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That's horrendous. The Jill hair wasn't a glitch and this was specifically to force people to buy it? What?
Sets are horrible and nobody has ever wanted them. I understand sets when meshes are incompatible, like Krampus Trapper's head being a separate head when Trapper's face is usually a mask, with the head mesh being part of the body, or the Robbie Rabbits having a similar deal, or any outfit where there's major clipping issues and part of the body would be missing on the model. And I'll grudgingly accept it when the license holder demands it. For everything else, there is no excuse. It demands more money and limits creativity. Nobody is happy with either of these results. You ever consider that people might be willing to buy more outfits if they could actually mix and match them?
#UnlinkTheSets
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Eh, at least it means they noticed. My hopes for timely fixes aren't exactly thriving, but it's better than the "Problem? What problem? I don't see a problem." school of community management.
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Billy isn't a bad killer. He's still stronger than many others. It's just, there isn't really much reason to play Billy except for the sake of playing Billy. There are several other killers that do what he does better, easier, or with a higher skill ceiling. Billy takes a lot of skill to play for returns that really aren't that high compared to what getting good with similar killers will net you.
It's a real shame. He's been bricked back into the basement again after all these years of freedom.
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@Jaffycake said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2277255#Comment_2277255
I know there is a difference. It is your fault for becoming a toxic, insulting crybaby when people are just having fun...
No one said it isn't annoying to be tbagged and flashlighted or have a killer do similar things. What we are saying is that you need to realise that it is just a game and being mad at others is ok.
The only ######### people I've ever encountered are the ones like yourself that say im trash for tunneling or report people for clicking a flashlight. They are the real toxic ones.
Yeah, okay, that's hilarious. You're not only creating your own standards for what's okay and decreeing that nobody else's opinion matters but yours, but you've decided I'm the real evil here because I profoundly do not enjoy your idea of fun and have the audacity to tell you that it isn't okay, and then painting a whole host of activities I must be doing even though nothing I said hinted at any of them. Toxic and insulting? Explain how me going "don't be a dick" when a player is going out of my way to ruin my day makes me toxic or insulting? Literally nothing in the post you quoted made me what you're accusing me of and you're just throwing around shade because you're mad that people don't take what you do in good fun.
(I never said you're trash for tunneling or reported anyone for clicking a flashlight, but okay, go ahead and strawman. I don't report players for things I know aren't bannable and I generally keep my mouth shut even if I was unhappy at how the killer played, unless they were doing things that served no gameplay purpose, like bleeding out four slugs to waste time.)
What if my idea of having fun was to blind you constantly because I know it'd get a reaction out of you? Is that okay? Because that's the mindset that griefers bring. They do things because the other player hates it and will react negatively - possibly because it gives them a gameplay advantage, possibly because it's funny. And I promise you, the people you're throwing your lot in with aren't going to differentiate between physical issues and mental.
Or is my negging your playstyle hurting your feelings and making you feel invalidated? Because if so, then you are a flaming hypocrite by defending your desire to belittle others and making them feel like ######### in a game, because it's all in good fun for you.
People going out of their way to be dicks are a problem and shouldn't be excused because "lol it doesn't mean anything, it's the internet." People are people, whether they're in front of you or behind a screen. People who antagonize strangers because there's no consequence have a profound lack of empathy at best and are actually bad people at worst, on the metric that you can judge a person by how they behave when they can get away with it, and on the other end... People generally cannot control what they get upset at any more than you can stop being triggered over sudden bright flashes. It's all brain chemistry. Years of therapy and mental training, perhaps, but for the most part, we are what we are.
If you're all for accessibility options, maybe you'd support a segregation system so that bad sports and toxic players would be more likely to pair up with each other based on community ratings? Then you can enjoy getting clicky-clicked every single match because you very valiantly don't have a problem with it, and so can bear that burden for those of us that do.
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I can't get over how cute the bots are. They tbag you when they want heals and occasionally sandbag you for no reason. You can even give them hatch and they won't wiggle off!
I was not expecting them to have such a wide range of behaviors, or mimic how actual players play. It's really clever and I want this feature expanded - it'd be fantastic for practicing new killers, or just trying out meme builds without stress.
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@Sunri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2277291#Comment_2277291
They are long for killer lol
That's just because the new chapter dropped and lots of people want to try out Nemesis, where there's far less new gameplay to test on the survivor side. Give it a day or so and it'll be back to the usual.
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It's linked now? I still have the option to buy them separately. Though the hair is definitely the same.
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God, you've got to respect a man with the audacity to pull off mouthglasses. Ace has always been a pioneer.