Kebek
Kebek
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I don't think any of those need nerfs.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922803#Comment_1922803
I get what your trying to say, just pointing out that comparing it to DS is really iffy. If you wanted to compare Pop to a survivor perk, Id say We'll make it would be the closest. Both allow you a time limited boost after successfully doing something (hooking for killers and unhooking for survivors). WMI actually WAS stackable back in the day allowing you to build up a massive boost if you did rapid unhooks. I'd hardly call it "stackable" now though, even if you do something weird like try to wait until it wore off before going for another unhook...although now I'm kinda beating a dead horse with the "stackable" thing so ill stop, lol.
I get what you mean, still my point really wasn't in that comparison, it just came fist to my head from the recent changes to perks but rather asking people to stop with the demands on changing the changes before they even come out.
I hope we get to test the new DS before adding any further updates to it.
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@ukenicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/224517/this-nerf-haggling-always-happens
DS and Undying are fine after their nerfs. They were both unfair and oppressive and now they make sense.
Both sides could do with weaker, niche perks being buffed so as to encourage perk diversity.
Stop it with this "one side is always more triggered than the other lul" rhetoric bcuz it's not true on a large generalization scale. Obviously a lot of killers were upset about Undying nerfs because they enjoyed free value from Ruin Undying and obviously a lot of survivors are upset now at DS nerf because it won't be 60 seconds of free value anymore either but there's plenty of people on both sides and those who play both who are fine and will adapt and aren't crying about every little thing.
All the oppressive things are being looked at. Hopefully Freddy and key changes can't come fast enough after all this.
My point isn't to generalise people's complains but to make them realise that asking for further changes before even testing the current changes which don't even seem that bad is silly and that they should wait and actually play them before judging them.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922755#Comment_1922755
If you keep things vague enough to say "It needs nerf because its too effective" you could claim that about EVERY perk in the entire game. The wording leaves alot of room for opinion. How much is too much? How much is too fast? I'm saying this simply to point out that super generic wording like this can allow you to argue ANY perk needs a buff/nerf and that EVERY perk is comparable.
Pop didnt allow for "stacking" due to not being token based causing the perk to overwrite and the kicking mechanic in general causing you to not be able to use it multiple times on the same gen (on your own). Thats not stacking.
Well I'm arguing based of changes devs actually made (thus had to have some reasoning for it, I think they even commented on the pop changes but I don't remember the specifics) and comparing them to another change they seem to want to do.
The "stacking" is just a word, I could say that the window of 60s was too forgiving allowing killers more actions then desired and it would mean basically the same thing. Stacking was simply the faster way to express something along those lines.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922739#Comment_1922739
People are almost always asking for compensations, because they dont understand two things:
Nerfing a thing on one side does not mean that something on the other side needs to be nerfed as well.
Nerfing something does not mean that there needs to be a buff to compensate for it.
And if I look at the "quality" of Threads opened whenever something on the Killer SIde gets nerfed ("recent" things: Nurse, Spirit Add Ons, Ruin, Billy), both sides are not really mature when it comes to nerfing stuff on their side.
Yeah but I just keep seeing people aking and demanding a buff for the new DS because it's is supposedly not even good at helping against tunneling and that they should buff the anti-tunneling aspects of it when they decided to nerf it so much.
I was already thinking of ways to buff anti-tunneling aspects of new DS in a fair way but I'm waiting for the changes to see if it's even worth it to post about that as new DS might not need it. I wish others could do the same thing.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922735#Comment_1922735
Honestly...I dont know if those 2 perks are the best choices for comparison since the only things they have in common is they have timers.
Considering that pop nerf happened due to people "stacking" it to get too much objective regression too fast and DS nerf is also getting nerfed due to getting objective progress too easily. I'd say it's good enough comparison as no ther nerfs feels like it had same reasoning as these 2.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
You only read what you want to read, eh?
Not that my memory would be fantastic but I don't remember as many threads asking for compensation when the pop nerf happened as they do now for DS before we even get a chace to test it.
I'm not against buffing DS as I said many times but AFTER we get to play with the new version, not to scrape it and instantly add a buff next to the nerf.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922689#Comment_1922689
While its true you can keep a pop in your back pocket so to speak, thats still not stacking it. Your unable to unload 2 pops on a gen without someone tapping it inbetween kicks. Thats 2 separate kicks on 2 separate gens with a kick inbetween each hook. If your in a situation like THIS team that let Umbra pop a gen 3 times rapidly... thats not a case of the perk being too good.
My point was mainly to show the comparion how killers could use pop to gain multiple uses out of it too fast due to the long timer giving them enough space to catch survivors before it runs out same way survivors can force out objectives with old DS risk-free due to no condition to prevent that from happenig..
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@indieeden7 said:
The thing about upcoming DS is that they have changed it so that it can't be used while not being tunnelled, but it also has the potential to be deactivated while being tunnelled as well. The timer should pause while in the dying state and while in chase (or possibly even when running seeing as people could just moonwalk and follow the person).
If they want to make it an anti-tunnelling perk then they should, but they also need to keep in mind that it shouldn't be made useless just because the survivor using it managed to waste 60 seconds of the killer's time.
Yet even before the nerf, if you ran the killer for longer then 60s and then got hooked, you weren't beiing tunneled unlike at 59s when you were beiing tunneled.
60s is universal time that devs seem to consider as long enough to have a chance at getting away. Nothing can stop the killer from hard tunneling you unless you desigb a perk that makes you immune to damage entirely. Imagine if DS had 2 uses and infinite duration until you progress objectives.
Killer can still tunnel you, he'll just eat both DSes and keeps going after you till you die and if he's good, he'll still kill you under 4-5 min mark. Tunneling won't ever be fixed with a perk, no matter how good or bad it is.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922675#Comment_1922675
Being healed when you're on last hook is indeed the end if you get caught.
So you're saying more people should use self care?
I don't care if people use selfcare, find teammates ot heal them, bring medkits or just stay injured the whole match. I want survivors to do clever decistions based on the circumstances they are in.
Playing smart is the strongest thing survivors can do, no perk will help solo survivors if they act like headless chicken, doing things that would normally kill them and getting used to not beiing punished for that. If there was actual good match making we would see that solo survivor experince isn't that bad when your teammtes know that they're doing.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922670#Comment_1922670
But POP didn't stack....
It didn't in mechanical way. But any good killer who was able to down a person in those 60s could get a gen kicked, hook the person they managed to catch in the 60s window for another pop and repeat that process very easily as long as they kept consistent chases, especially in a 3 gen with gens close to each other.
Same with DS, peple got unhooked, made a save and now both people have a DS and what's killer supposed to do. I guess I just leave them both and go find someone else as I know they both have DS active, just let me find a different survivros across the map, knowing there are 2 righ infront of me but I can't chase/hook them due to their perk.
@LordGlint Same topic.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922667#Comment_1922667
Don't ask me that, I'm not the one trying to keep my DS, i'm the one trying to get healed. Even at red ranks, I've gotten times when a team mate refuses to heal me, even though I'm on death hook. New DS will just make that happen more often. I've had enough 3men SWF in my team while I play solo in 4k hours to know how selfish those get.
You can always find some other way to heal or someone else to heal you other then the person you just uhooked, at that stage, you should be healing them as they have DS and won't be able to heal you. Overall making saves when injured is a bad call in solo unless desperate or you know it's safe.
Besides that, beiing injured is not the end of the world. If you're good you'll heal about 2 times per match as long as you don't get potatoes in your team, then it's a lost game no matter what you do.
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@Marigoria said:
You can't compare POP going from 60 seconds to 45 seconds to the DS nerf though.
You could have used the undying example, the "haggling" was the same.
I can, people didn't use pop as it was intended, to kick a gen after hooknig and were chasing and dowing survivors to stack pop uses. With less duration, that's far far less likely to happen as you don't have time and you'll lose your pop if you commit to a chase.
Same with DS, people kept using it to cheese objective insted of using it to get away from beiing tunneled so it's getting conditions that prevent that from happening.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922656#Comment_1922656
You missed my point entirely. Solo survivors wont have people to heal them if they want to keep their DS. I never mentioned it was under the hook or not. No one stays under the hook for 1 full minute.
Why would you want to keep your DS and not heal if killer isn't nearby ? Will you get tunneled after killer catches someone else, hooks them and comes back some 30-40s later.
You hypnotizing that people will just do nothnig for 60s for the sake of their keeping their anti-tunneling perk active when they aren't beiing tunneled at all. If they do that, they deserve to lose since they wasted too much time.
As I said, you and your teammates both will have to evaluate the situation if it's save to heal, if it is, you can both heal as killer is far way. If it isn't and he's around ready to tunnel you, don't heal and try to get away / use locker.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922613#Comment_1922613
And how is people refusing to heal me because they have DS going to help me in solo Q? Should everyone just start bringing self care?
So, you're saving injured while killer is close or what ? You won't get tunneled if killer is across the map and you can heal each other,no needing DS active but if killer is nearby, don't heal right there. Go find a pallet or something and heal each other out of danger.
This is exactly the bad behaviour old DS supported, I have DS so I can heal under hook risk-free not wasting any time because if killer comes here, he's tunneling me and I get a free stun/stall. Dumb teammates won't heal you anyway, DS or not. That's a matchmaking issue, not a DS issue.
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@jerrikad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/224517/this-nerf-haggling-always-happens
Do you think reducing from 60 secs to 45 secs PGTW is the same nerf as DS nerf?
No, I'm saying people weren't asking for compensations as much as they do now. Read it again.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922604#Comment_1922604
So, what is your plan to make them not useless for the solo survivors who are in the same match trying to complete gens?
Them not dying to tunneling killer is what makes them not useless. They can get away, heal and then do gens, when they're no longer in danger of beiing tunneled.
If people just used their brains and evaded a killer insted of healing under a hook and then go pikatchu face when killer gets back and downs them they wouldn't be tunneled as often as they are.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922588#Comment_1922588
So you would down them instead, stopping them from doing anything since they would be on the ground, not working on a gen or getting the unhook.
And they would use unbreakable and continue doing gens etc. Meaning I still can't punish them for doing dumb stuff in my face unless I'll babysit them and lose the match because of that.
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Grabs don't work since dedicated servers were added. Survivors need to literally blindfold themself to be grabbed by the killer.
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I'd say if the changes prove too harsh we can loosen them later or buff DS in some other meaningfull way. For now, I want to play with it and againt it to actually see how much different it is.
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You'll lose it if you want to cheese objectives risk free after the changes. No more free stuns/stall unless you're actually beiing tunneled.
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I sense some love-hate relationship. Hope it works out for you.
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Nope, it seems like an amazing perk to go against. Good survivor will get a lot of needed info out of the aura reading but a bad one will probably only increase his chance of dying.
I really hope they'll use this version of OoO for it's rework.
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For me, both yes. I love playing as him and enjoy a lot facing him too.
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I'm sorry for all the trapping killlers but this time it's for a sake of having a chance to influence development process so would say it's worth it.
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I'd be much happier with a rework that removes MM speed and Exposed effect completely from NOED and makes it a perk that blocks the exit gate switches for a limited time based on tokens recieved during the match. Much cooler and less annoying effect that can still save endgame.
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Yes
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I think overall the community accepted the changes well. Far more people like the new changes to DS then those who don't and OoO concept changes are also really well thought out. I hope they notice the positive feedback and keep them as they are really needed.
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@Monarch said:
Welp, unfortunately, it seems you are just an innocent protester in noman's land cuz I think survs are about to start a revolt.
That never helped before and won't do any good now. All the propositions are just too early, reminds me how people scream OP & weak each chapter about new killer and perks.
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Ohh comfy, hope you got enough salt to mummify yourself.
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@Bond4ever said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919871#Comment_1919871
Yeah..? Thing is the new DS deactivates when there are potential chances u get tunneled..
Everyone views tunneling differently. What is tunneling to you might not be to someone else. Can't make it universal as there isn't universal agreement on the extent of when tunneling starts and ends or when it warranted and when not.
Devs made the perk work like this based on our feedback so it's the closest to what community wants.
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Personally, no. If they can somehow pull it properly off it's a very skillful act. Messing up timing on that can get you killed and you'll very often need green medkit to have a chance at it. It's all good with me.
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The camping idea hard punishes M1 killers who use camping on occasion strategically but is also 100% useless vs facecampers as they'll just use Bubba (as they do now) and facecamp you with chainsaw so you're not getting unhooked at all. It wouldn't work, sorry.
The tunneling idea would again, just very slightly delay the act of tunneling. DS already does that and better, for 1 min each hook stage. Hard tunneler just throws the game only to kill single person, they'd slug you for 4 minutes just to bleed you out if they really hard tunnel so this change wouldn't be impactful vs abuse of tunneling at all.
Ideas are appreciated but devs and the community were thinking of good ways to lessen tunneling for almost 5 years and there still isn't any good way to do so. It's very improbable to fix something so complex on a whim. They would affect and help survivors with those issues ofc but not in a good way for the game.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920515#Comment_1920515
Thing is even when survivors are good at chases or playing optimal, I've seen red rank killers still abuse mechanics like Camping/Tunneling/Slugging. I've seen survivors get slugged through the end of their dying state timer simply because the killer felt like it.
My main point with this thread is to speak up about how the current changes to DS only reflect a healthy balance for one side, without acknowledgement of the problem that continues on the other side. There are currently 0 anti-tunneling mechanics (not perks) to help survivors, so it would be nice if survivors could get some type of perk-less option so they didn't feel inclined to bringing the same perks.
@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920515#Comment_1920515
Thing is even when survivors are good at chases or playing optimal, I've seen red rank killers still abuse mechanics like Camping/Tunneling/Slugging. I've seen survivors get slugged through the end of their dying state timer simply because the killer felt like it.
My main point with this thread is to speak up about how the current changes to DS only reflect a healthy balance for one side, without acknowledgement of the problem that continues on the other side. There are currently 0 anti-tunneling mechanics (not perks) to help survivors, so it would be nice if survivors could get some type of perk-less option so they didn't feel inclined to bringing the same perks.
There are some ways to abuse Camping/Tunneling/Slugging and I would like them to be adressed but it usually doesn't work. For example how do you stop killers from 4 man slugging and letting people bleed out ? He managed to catch all 4 survivors who failed at evading him, he won basically and gets to decide on how to kill them. Only thing I can think of in that situation is to give survivors option to concede and auto-die after bleeding out for 2 min.
I rarely use DS, still almost never get tunneled unless I'm asking for it, even that much less hard tunneled. When that happens to me, I take it as a learing experience ot better my looping skills and usually I get to waste so much killers time that he loses from tunneling me.
Tbh I want more juking mechaincs in the game. Something that would help end chases trough hiding so that tunneled survivors can escape the tunneling killer and get another chance. Unfortunately, I don't think devs would be willing to add something like that as it would take a lot of work and wouldn't make any money for them.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920419#Comment_1920419
"Why should killer get consequences for dowing and hooking survior who was working on a generator/unhooking in his face ?"
That is a perk. You were tunneling. Doesn't matter what they are doing.
Why are you in the survivors face tunneling?
See how that works?
Yeah and there was this perk called enduring that used to delete effect of your DS and it got patched out. That was the perk, it got more balanced.
Same goes for DS. See how that works.
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"Mettle of Man flashbacks"
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920450#Comment_1920450
Considering many ideas have been brought to the table already, and some of my own with BOTH sides in mind. I am not holding my breath.
I was always for an adjustment to DS, AS LONG as they also adjusted Camping and Tunneling and gave survivors more options, aside from bringing the same perks.
And if I do have clever ideas I do bring them up. That's what the forums are for right? :)
I've read through a decent chunk of those ideas and usually there are some major flaws to them.
Main issue with tunneling/camping is matchmaking. If you put two equally good players against each other, they should take healthy amount of time in a chase before going down depening on who played better. Unfortunately, matchmaking puts potaotes vs good killers far more often then it should and they get tunneled and camped because they're easy prey and their teammateas also play into it.
I would love to see more anti tunneling mechanics but not one that waste time but one that helps survivors end chases and get away as that is the only way to not get tunneled. Juke the killer to the point where he loses LOS of you, a killer tha can't chase you can't camp/tunnel you.
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You talk about it as it would be something really simple. It's not, a good healthy change that wouldn't negatively affect neither each side is extremely hard to create for both. You can't just slap on a number change that benefits one side and ruins the game for the other and call it a day, it was tried and it didn't work.
But if you have any clever GOOD ideas on how to adress them, start writing.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920218#Comment_1920218
NOED.
Also Tinkerer rewards killer for doing nothing and punishes survivor for doing the objective. On a high mobility killer, this is a free win on anything less than a top 4 man SWF.
I don't rely on DS, I especially don't as much as killers do with killer perks. It is the principal of it.
To correct you, bad killers picked someone up after working on a gen if they had DS active. Your own fault. You should have the consequences here, but the devs will be removing it. You are still tunneling whether they went to a gen or crouched somewhere near it. You went "back to the hook" to chase the same survivor. It should not have mattered what they did at that point.
Yeah sure, NOED is really meta perk that isn't used by mainly bad killers. Knowing you, you've obviously dismissed that NOED was nerfed several times as well and will get more changes in the future, community isn't happy with it so I'm certain it won't stay they way it is forever.
And tinkerer by itself is still pretty useless, nowhere near the meta unless you pair it with actual good stall perk and a mobility killer, nowhere near as universal as DS. Go ahead and take it on any slow movement killer without slowdown and you'll see how meta it is.
For someone who doesn't rely on it, you're one the loudest people complaining about the changes it gets that don't even affect tunneling at all. At least it's entertaining to read what you write as it usually can't be taken seriously. The change is no big deal if you don't cheese DS to get free objective progress, after getting unhooked don't hop on a nearest gen but get away to a safe spot and heal there, in place where you won't get tunneled.
Why should killer get consequences for dowing and hooking survior who was working on a generator/unhooking in his face ? Should survivors get stabbed and downed by a generator if they work on it too long ? There should be consequences for failing at something, not at beating the other side at something.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919962#Comment_1919962
Killer's objective is to kill is as much as survivor's objective is to complete generators and heal. The double-standard is with you and the devs. Killers have loads of perks that punish the survivor side for doing the objective, now survivor has a perk of their own that punishes themselves for doing the objective. How much help do killers need?
I can already visualize folks not doing generators to save their perk. That is horrendous to think about.
Oh yeah, tell me single killer meta perk that activates from survivors finishing gens that makes huge impact on game's outcome.
All good killer gen defence perks work only if killer manages to catch / fend off and hook survivors, not reward them for failing to defend gens and activate from gens poping.
It's people like you who rely on perks like DS to let them cheese some objective progress risk-free. Actions should have consequences and DS promoted actions that would instantly kill you had you not have it. Use it as anti-tunneling perk and nothing has changed, try to cheese objectives for free at your own peril.
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@Shirokinukatsukami said:
Funny thing about this game.
Historically, the more killers get the nerfs they want, the less killers proportionally play the game.
This game used to be a lot tougher for killers, but back then there were too many killers and not enough survivors. Killers got all the nerfs they wanted. Brighter maps, brighter clothes, removal of palette vacuums, bloodlust, removal of most god loops, auto window blocking, Exhaustion nerf, Mettle nerf, BL nerf, DS nerf, another DS nerf, etc.
Yet somehow instead of improving the play experience for killers it actually made it worse.
Who knows why, but judging from the queues there are less and less killers playing the game compared to survivors.
So strictly speaking killers getting the nerfs they want might not actually be the right direction for this game.
Infallible logic, time ot bring old infinites back and remove all killers except first 3. That will make people play the killer role more as they'll have to be good again to win.
I heard there was really huge playerbase back in 2016-2017, amazing +- 20-30k players compared to poor 50k we have these days.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920012#Comment_1920012
Really? I need to test this out.
It's not written there specifically but he's correct. If you don't hit the DS and just let it finish without pressing anything, you can save it for the second time if that ever comes. It always worked like that from what I remember.
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@Jejune said:
The upcoming change is horrible because before you could do a gen and maybe never use the DS.
Now I can't see why would people pick DS without UB and without trying to force killer to chase them.
DS never worked as anti tunnel perk. Now it still doesn't work as anti tunnel perk and you can't do anything while it's activated.
So anti tunneling perk that punishes killer when they tunnel does nothing when you're not getting tunneled ? Who would have thought. The nerf literally removes the instances where you do actions that make killer tunnel you as you run into their face, doing your objectives infront of them. You're basically forcing them to tunnel so that you can activate DS to waste their time.
If DS doesn't activate it means its doing it's job well and you're not getting tunneled. Be glad you don't have to activate DS, that's what it's there for, to ensure you get a game where killer isn't constantly on you and doesn't have to proc DS.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919632#Comment_1919632
It was never said to be specifically anti-tunnel. It doesn't even serve that purpose well and it for sure won't now. How is doing the objective abusive? Killers can play the game normally but survivors can't?
Killers can abuse it now for the reasons I mentioned. The perk will be so bad it won't be used, therefore It is definitely not a healthy change when you lose a perk for doing the objective and when there is no obsessions everyone will be tunneled. It's only healthy for killers, to make the game even easier for them where 4K bloodbaths are the norm.
"How is doing the objective abusive?" followed by "Killers can abuse it now for the reasons I mentioned."
So killers who's objective is to kill, chosing to do their goal with option through tunneling can somehow abuse the new DS even when it's still survivors choice to disable their DS.
You're basically writing a double standart here. Survivors should be able to progress their objective without any hinderances but killers doing their objective should get punished.
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"Purely to stop tunneling", meaning it does that among other things. Peanits nor the devs never said one of DS's uses isn't supposed to help againt tunneling but that it's not the only function it has.
Community keept insisting it's only anti-tunneling perk which it never was and even after the nerfs still won't be as there are other uses it has beyond stopping tunneling which is fine as long as they aren't too easily abused.
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Trapper and Hag, mainly trapper. I'm extremely unlucky and oblivious when it comes to stepping in traps.
I won't quite or give as I almost never do that but I won't have very fun match usually.
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You'll have to wager your chances if you want to work on objectives with new DS. You can also create new mindgames on killers to fake doing an action so that killer think you don't have DS anymore while you still have it. I'd dare to say that good players might use this nerf as a buff in some scenarios.
Imagine this, you get unhooked near a gen that 70% done and your teammates mindlessly runs away and you go to the gen and hide behind it, not doing it. If the killer comes around he'll think you worked on the gen and that you no longer have DS while in reality you were faking doing the gen so he donws you, picks you up and get's "deceivesivly" striked.
People are overestimating the nerf it got. It can't be weaponised in aggressive way anymore but you can still weaponise it in deceptive way.
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From the wording it sounds like it only deactivates if YOU do the actions. I don't think it will deactivate if others heal you but probably will when you heal yourself.
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@ImHexyAndINoed said:
"Whenever your aura is revealed to the Killer, the killers aura is revealed to you"
Does this mean if a killer runs BBQ or Nurses you'll see them?
Yes or if you meet other killers with aura reading addons like Michael with mirror or Plague with incense.
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I think this is the best solution to fix it. Almost identical to my idea on fixing OoO so ofc I'm happy with it.