This nerf haggling always happens
Even when met with healthy changes that don't gut a perk, still so many people just bargain to get something more, some compensation for a nerf to lose a bit but gain more.
This seems to happen with survivor perks more then it tends to happen with killer's. Last time when simmiliar change to a meta perk happened to pop, nerfing the duration so that cases when pop was used to down survivors in a window of it's duration to stack pop uses.
There was almost the same amout of people calling pop dead but at least there wasn't as much nerf haggling as it is now with DS. Like "make pop remove 40% of progress when it's shorter duration" etc.
I really hope devs won't cave in before the changes even come and adding buffs to it under the pressure, next to the nerfs. I'm for buffing DS if it proves too weak but right now we don't know. People said ruin was dead when it got reworked, saying its changes nerfed it too much and it was just fine, I foresee the same with these DS nerfs.
Comments
No, I'm saying people weren't asking for compensations as much as they do now. Read it again.
You can't compare POP going from 60 seconds to 45 seconds to the DS nerf though.
You could have used the undying example, the "haggling" was the same.
I'm seeing slightly the opposite. Barely anyone called pop dead. A lot of people are saying DS is dead. A large amount of ppl bargained when pop was nerfed. Less ppl are bargaining with the DS nerf. Not a lot less but still less.
I can, people didn't use pop as it was intended, to kick a gen after hooknig and were chasing and dowing survivors to stack pop uses. With less duration, that's far far less likely to happen as you don't have time and you'll lose your pop if you commit to a chase.
Same with DS, people kept using it to cheese objective insted of using it to get away from beiing tunneled so it's getting conditions that prevent that from happening.
But POP didn't stack....
It's fun to finally watch survivors go through some growing pains. They say the anticipation is worse than the pain. So just work with it and before you know it it's over.
Pop doesnt stack though... Theres no token system on it for 1 and you cant kick a gen more than once. In order for you to "stack" pop kicks on a gen, a survivor would have to start working on it after you kick it for you to kick it again after getting another pop charge.
It didn't in mechanical way. But any good killer who was able to down a person in those 60s could get a gen kicked, hook the person they managed to catch in the 60s window for another pop and repeat that process very easily as long as they kept consistent chases, especially in a 3 gen with gens close to each other.
Same with DS, peple got unhooked, made a save and now both people have a DS and what's killer supposed to do. I guess I just leave them both and go find someone else as I know they both have DS active, just let me find a different survivros across the map, knowing there are 2 righ infront of me but I can't chase/hook them due to their perk.
@LordGlint Same topic.
The thing about upcoming DS is that they have changed it so that it can't be used while not being tunnelled, but it also has the potential to be deactivated while being tunnelled as well. The timer should pause while in the dying state and while in chase (or possibly even when running seeing as people could just moonwalk and follow the person).
If they want to make it an anti-tunnelling perk then they should, but they also need to keep in mind that it shouldn't be made useless just because the survivor using it managed to waste 60 seconds of the killer's time.
While its true you can keep a pop in your back pocket so to speak, thats still not stacking it. Your unable to unload 2 pops on a gen without someone tapping it inbetween kicks. Thats 2 separate kicks on 2 separate gens with a kick inbetween each hook. If your in a situation like THIS team that let Umbra pop a gen 3 times rapidly... thats not a case of the perk being too good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_CECuqg6lII'm okay with it pausing in chase but not while slugged otherwise it has no play around other than hoping they progress their objective. If I don't want to eat a DS and have an obvious DS user trying to get value from it I will slug them since it creates some pressure and I know for sure that by the next time I see them (pending WGLF heal or Unbreakable) they won't have DS up any longer.
Yet even before the nerf, if you ran the killer for longer then 60s and then got hooked, you weren't beiing tunneled unlike at 59s when you were beiing tunneled.
60s is universal time that devs seem to consider as long enough to have a chance at getting away. Nothing can stop the killer from hard tunneling you unless you desigb a perk that makes you immune to damage entirely. Imagine if DS had 2 uses and infinite duration until you progress objectives.
Killer can still tunnel you, he'll just eat both DSes and keeps going after you till you die and if he's good, he'll still kill you under 4-5 min mark. Tunneling won't ever be fixed with a perk, no matter how good or bad it is.
You only read what you want to read, eh?
My point was mainly to show the comparion how killers could use pop to gain multiple uses out of it too fast due to the long timer giving them enough space to catch survivors before it runs out same way survivors can force out objectives with old DS risk-free due to no condition to prevent that from happenig..
Not that my memory would be fantastic but I don't remember as many threads asking for compensation when the pop nerf happened as they do now for DS before we even get a chace to test it.
I'm not against buffing DS as I said many times but AFTER we get to play with the new version, not to scrape it and instantly add a buff next to the nerf.
Honestly...I dont know if those 2 perks are the best choices for comparison since the only things they have in common is they have timers.
People are almost always asking for compensations, because they dont understand two things:
Nerfing a thing on one side does not mean that something on the other side needs to be nerfed as well.
Nerfing something does not mean that there needs to be a buff to compensate for it.
And if I look at the "quality" of Threads opened whenever something on the Killer SIde gets nerfed ("recent" things: Nurse, Spirit Add Ons, Ruin, Billy), both sides are not really mature when it comes to nerfing stuff on their side.
I was feeling the same thing lol.
It felt like killers whined a lot more but I haven't seen them nerf haggle like this.
Considering that pop nerf happened due to people "stacking" it to get too much objective regression too fast and DS nerf is also getting nerfed due to getting objective progress too easily. I'd say it's good enough comparison as no ther nerfs feels like it had same reasoning as these 2.
Yeah but I just keep seeing people aking and demanding a buff for the new DS because it's is supposedly not even good at helping against tunneling and that they should buff the anti-tunneling aspects of it when they decided to nerf it so much.
I was already thinking of ways to buff anti-tunneling aspects of new DS in a fair way but I'm waiting for the changes to see if it's even worth it to post about that as new DS might not need it. I wish others could do the same thing.
If you keep things vague enough to say "It needs nerf because its too effective" you could claim that about EVERY perk in the entire game. The wording leaves alot of room for opinion. How much is too much? How much is too fast? I'm saying this simply to point out that super generic wording like this can allow you to argue ANY perk needs a buff/nerf and that EVERY perk is comparable.
Pop didnt allow for "stacking" due to not being token based causing the perk to overwrite and the kicking mechanic in general causing you to not be able to use it multiple times on the same gen (on your own). Thats not stacking.
DS and Undying are fine after their nerfs. They were both unfair and oppressive and now they make sense.
Both sides could do with weaker, niche perks being buffed so as to encourage perk diversity.
Stop it with this "one side is always more triggered than the other lul" rhetoric bcuz it's not true on a large generalization scale. Obviously a lot of killers were upset about Undying nerfs because they enjoyed free value from Ruin Undying and obviously a lot of survivors are upset now at DS nerf because it won't be 60 seconds of free value anymore either but there's plenty of people on both sides and those who play both who are fine and will adapt and aren't crying about every little thing.
All the oppressive things are being looked at. Hopefully Freddy and key changes can't come fast enough after all this.
Well I'm arguing based of changes devs actually made (thus had to have some reasoning for it, I think they even commented on the pop changes but I don't remember the specifics) and comparing them to another change they seem to want to do.
The "stacking" is just a word, I could say that the window of 60s was too forgiving allowing killers more actions then desired and it would mean basically the same thing. Stacking was simply the faster way to express something along those lines.
My point isn't to generalise people's complains but to make them realise that asking for further changes before even testing the current changes which don't even seem that bad is silly and that they should wait and actually play them before judging them.
In my opinion this change is getting almost as much heat as the Ruin change, not because its a huge nerf on a meta perk but because they are nerfing something while not adressing the major frustrating problem associated with it, with Ruin it was genrushing squads with 4 toolboxes with DS is tunneling and proxy camping.
When they changed Ruin people were fuming because genrush with 4 toolboxes was easier to do and extremely effective so people felt defenseless against something that was already hard to deal with and they felt they had lost one of their strongest perks, if they had implemented new Ruin with the toolbox and efficiency nerfs people wouldnt be so angry about it, this is the same, they nerfed the only thing Survivors have against heavy tunneling.
I get what your trying to say, just pointing out that comparing it to DS is really iffy. If you wanted to compare Pop to a survivor perk, Id say We'll make it would be the closest. Both allow you a time limited boost after successfully doing something (hooking for killers and unhooking for survivors). WMI actually WAS stackable back in the day allowing you to build up a massive boost if you did rapid unhooks. I'd hardly call it "stackable" now though, even if you do something weird like try to wait until it wore off before going for another unhook...although now I'm kinda beating a dead horse with the "stackable" thing so ill stop, lol.
I get what you mean, still my point really wasn't in that comparison, it just came fist to my head from the recent changes to perks but rather asking people to stop with the demands on changing the changes before they even come out.
I hope we get to test the new DS before adding any further updates to it.
Well my PC is probably gonna be out of commission for another month or so, so I mostly drop by the forums to try to stay up to date. Was surprised when I saw this DS change considering I've been suggesting this exact thing forever, lol. We'll see if its still here when I finally get to log on.