Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735066#Comment_3735066
If every survivor had such mindset the game state would had been much healthier. Unfortunately it's much easier to complain and give up on first down so killer's kill rates get inflated very quickly which will always result into subsequent nerfs.
Unless you have objective proof that survivors are giving up on first down enough that it would inflate kill rates, I don't think that's a very fair statement to make.
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They should just revert the sabo buff, and buff self care instead.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734915#Comment_3734915
I've been trying to treat him like a chainsaw killer; give him a wide berth by pre running and being aware and force him to spend as much time it takes to hook you.
It's tight but making a correct read on whether or not Vecna will use Mage Hand or bait you does seem to help a little bit.
At my MMR, there's a 90% chance that Vecna will use Mage Hand. Whether it's to block the pallet, or lift it. I can still run him for a decent amount of time, I just feel like there isn't enough counterplay surrounding the usage of pallets.
I see Vecna casting Mage Hand, so I throw the pallet to buy a little time, but the Pallet is lifted almost as soon as the animation to throw it has finished. Hopefully this small nerf will change that. If not, guess I'll just have to figure out which loops I can greed and which ones I can't when playing against Vecna.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734931#Comment_3734931
Games against SWFs are objectively harder than games against solos.
Seems like a problem with game balance then no?
I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that it has anything to do with game balance. If you go from playing against people who barely know what they're doing, to playing against people who are objectively more competent, is that something that needs fixing?
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@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733720#Comment_3733720
And I have a right to know the survivors have an advantage that I cannot counter, voice comms, and a right to decide if I want to play against people with an unfair advantage.SWF win rates might not be much higher than solo queue (or so BHVR said and I take their word with massive mounds of salts) but it's miserable to play against SWFs regardless.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733723#Comment_3733723
Yeah, because it's the same argument I always see SWFs use to argue against anything that could provide Killers info that they are at a disadvantage.
The bad faith comparison SWF mains make is 'well why can't we see who the Killer is in matches'? Because that would allow SWFs to directly counter the Killers base kit. Going against the Doctor? Bring Calm Spirit. Going against the Plague? Bring things like No Mither or Resilience. Going against M1 Killers? Bring chase works since most of the M1 killers are incredibly weak.
I find SWFs to be miserable to play against. I don't expect to win every match but to get stomped by a highly coordinated SWF and you feel helpless to do anything the entire time? That just makes me want to quit.
Oh, about to get your first down? A SWF member rushes over and bodyblocks and sandbags you so you can't get the down. Oh, you got your first down? SWF rushes over with a flashlight, flash bang or sabos the nearest hook to you. Give up the chase because it's clear you're wasting your time? The SWF rushes over to quickly patch up the injured survivor meaning you spent your time in case for absolutely nothing.
You don't have a right to know if you're playing against SWFs, though. I've played against highly coordinated SWFs before as killer, and it was miserable. I've played against sabo squads, flashlight squads, bully squads, genrush squads, and it was miserable, but that doesn't mean that all swfs are like that.
It doesn't mean that all swfs are comparable to Team Eternal, or Hens, Dan, etc. You remember negative experiences more prominently than you do positive ones. I've had games against killers where they've absolutely stomped me and my friend, and I can recognize times where we lost because of mistakes we made.
Swfs are mostly just casual players who play with their friends. They care about winning as much as anyone else, but they don't take it to the extreme and pull out all the stops. While I can't speak for other swfs, I can tell you what perks me and my friend run.
I run WoO, Mirrored Illusion, Botany, and Self Care. My friend runs DS, Lithe, Botany, and Self Care. We aren't glued at the hip, and we use very limited callouts. Mostly just "Killer's on me, can you get the rescue?" or "I'll get the rescue". We don't use clock callouts, and we don't actively track the killer's location. 90% of the time we're discussing things that aren't even related to dbd.
My point is that not all SWFs are highly coordinated. Most of the time they're just casual players who can hit skill checks and do somewhat well in chase.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733720#Comment_3733720
If knowing it is a SWF group vs not a SWF group creates a scenario where everyone starts dodging the SWF groups, that would indicate that there is a problem with SWF and the game balance would it not?
Not really, no.
Games against SWFs are objectively harder than games against solos. The degree of difficulty can be as small as swfs don't kill themselves on hook or play super selfishly. In solo queue, teamwork is not guaranteed.
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I've found Mage Hand to have very little counterplay.
You throw the pallet, and Mage Hand lifts it before you can gain any sort of real distance resulting in a free hit.
You greed the pallet, and by time Mage Hand expires, you still get hit.
You leave the loop, and Vecna immediately catches up to you.
It certainly doesn't help that there's little to no information currently available on how you should counter Mage Hand.
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Because it'll encourage lobby dodging. 2/4 survivors are a SWF? Dodge. Apply the same concept to 3 and 4-man swfs, and it creates a mess for matchmaking. The problem with painting all SWFs as being equal in skill to the likes of Hens and the people he plays with is that most SWFs are just casual players who want to play with their friends.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732076#Comment_3732076
You need to go more into detail here... Just because it's asymmetrical means nothing...
It's pretty simple. The ratio of killer players to survivor players in any given match is 1:4. This means that in order for killer votes to even matter, they would need to have a voting power equal to the number of survivors.
Killer would vote to ban survivor-sided maps, and survivors would vote to ban killer-sided maps. Unlike other games where maps don't really have too much influence on the outcome of a match, Dead by Daylight's maps can play a large part in determining the outcome of a match. A 4-man SWF, for instance, on Haddonfield isn't nearly as likely to escape in comparison to Garden of Joy, or Badham Preschool.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732849#Comment_3732849
You really do think that the statistics that stated that killers like Freddy and Sadako had 60%+ kill rates are legit and these killers are on good spot and probably need to be nerfed too, right? It's exactly the type of statistics that devs present, griefers, trolls and chill people who only inflate kill rates are not excluded from the final numbers.
That's is like saying killers are natively stronger than survivors because they can kill them. Well, yeah, what you do expect them to do?
So you want cherry picked data?
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@Archol123 said:
Best case would be to have a map ban system so each side can block a certain amount of maps that can never appear, that would not only help bhvr which maps need to get looked at again but also lead to less frustration and a more balanced map pool. With that addition I don't think map offerings would need to change, because the maps people don't like are already not in the map pool anymore.
I don't think map bans could work in a game like Dead by Daylight due to it being asymmetrical.
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Gen times are fine, and don't need changing. Survivors need a secondary objective.
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@Rick1998 said:
i hate map offerings and would not shed a tear if they go removed or just gutted alltogheter.
Some people play super casually. They might play one match, and that's enough to tide them over for a week. Others play a little less casually, and play multiple matches in a row. It really, really sucks when you've gotten RPD for the fifth time in a row.
Any realm can get stale fast when you get it five times in a row. While I understand your feelings on map offerings, I simply think it would be far better to change how they work currently than to simply do away with them altogether.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649003#Comment_3649003
I don't even know how you thought that was a serious comment.
I was pointing out YOUR post, where you said 'Tunneling is a detriment' because of the few times it does badly.
I have never said tunneling should be removed. It's a valid tactic. JFC.
And I had never made a single remark about implementing a mechanic to alleviate tunneling in the first place. So maybe you ought to ask yourself why you even mentioned it in the first place.
To be clear, tunneling is detrimental. The only reason people do it is to create permanent slowdown. One in hook, one in chase, one unhooking. No-one on gens.
Tunneling isn't efficient. It only becomes efficient once someone's dead. There are three other survivors who will happily bust out gens while you waste your time getting mindgamed at the fifth safe pallet in a row.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648935#Comment_3648935
This is why I think it needs both incentives not to tunnel and penalties for tunneling.
Well, we did have that with BBQ and DS. To an extent, it works.
It doesn't delete tunneling from the game, I think nothing ever will, but back then tunneling wasn't the norm. And that is huge.
Part of why tunneling wasn't the norm back then also has to do with self-care helping to prevent gens from going too fast, and also because of the lack of conspicuous actions. Someone with DS could repair a gen, heal someone, or unhook. When you think about it, there's a lot of factors that kept tunneling down.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648984#Comment_3648984
I'm not trying to implement anything. WTH did you get that idea?
Your constant falling back on this argument seems to suggest you think it's possible a mechanic could be implented to fix tunneling.
Tunneling is 100% bad to do and needs garbage mechanics to 'fix' it to make Survivors happy?
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648972#Comment_3648972
And both are wrong in what they want. Your point?
My point is that neither will ever get what they want. No matter how loudly they demand it, there is just no way to implement mechanics to counter tunneling and swf without punishing those players for it. Bhvr have already said in the past that they don't want to punish playstyles.
Look at the anti-camping mechanic. The primary purpose of it is to prevent face-camping, and ensure that the person hooked gets to play the game. Camping, as a tactic, is still possible and has come out relatively unaffected.
Basekit BT didn't even arise to alleviate tunneling. It was introduced to prevent hook farming. Survivors using it to bodyblock just end up back on hook anyway, since they've just made it clear that they aren't interested in getting away from the killer.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648966#Comment_3648966
Defending the generators is just to buy time to kill. It's not an 'objective' of the Killers.
If the killer tunnels, and gets naught but a 1k, was it not a detriment?
So, because some matches can end badly; Tunneling is 100% bad to do and needs garbage mechanics to 'fix' it to make Survivors happy?
I'm apparently thinking more than you are.
It is an objective of the killer. As much as preventing hook states is an objective of the survivors. I've played many a game where the killer has ignored the other three survivors sitting on gens while they've just been looped around shack for the last minute. They lost because they didn't defend their generators.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648962#Comment_3648962
Yeah. Imagine an SWF player unhooked, then just following a stealth Killer like Ghostface, Spirit, or Myers around. Or reporting on where Trapper/Hag is placing traps.
And the Killer can do nothing to stop this.
It's hilarious how Survivors always seem to think "I hate tunneling! How about we add this horribly abusable mechanic to 'fix' it?"
For every survivor that wants a horrible abusable mechanic to alleviate tunneling, there's a killer who wants an equally horrible and abusable mechanic to deal with those pesky SWFs.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648927#Comment_3648927
Tunneling isn't thrown around to refer to a killer just doing their objective. It's very specifically choosing to eliminate one survivor as quickly as possible, to the detriment of other objectives.
What 'other objectives'? The Killer's end goal is to kill the Survivors. Full stop. Everything else he does is simply to buy time to achieve this goal. He does not win by kicking gens, but kicking gens helps him win. He does not win by hooking Survivors, but hooking Survivors progresses him towards winning.
Your 'detriment to the other objectives/Survivors' is just made-up tripe to make it sound like you have a valid point.
If the Killer 'tunnels', and ends up with a 3-4K, then it was not a 'detriment', was it?
It isn't made-up tripe. Your primary objective is to prevent the survivors from escaping by killing them. Your secondary objective is to defend your generators.
If the killer tunnels, and gets naught but a 1k, was it not a detriment? Part of tunneling is knowing who to target. If you target the wrong person, you've just cost yourself the match. The only thing that makes tunneling efficient is the payoff of having permanent slowdown.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648926#Comment_3648926
Yeah, that's fair.
But i just don't bite the "Killers won't tunnel if they were power role" thing. Because they did and they will. So BHVR should not play with balance too much. Because i don't believe killers will play fair whenever they buffed to power role, let's say all killers buffed to base-kit Blight level. Things like that should not happen.
Buffing DS a bit will give fair counter to survivors and that's good enough.
Anytime anyone says "Killers wouldn't have to tunnel were it not for XYZ", there's a 100% chance that they'd still tunnel even if they got what they wanted.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648901#Comment_3648901
Regardless of whether I agree with any of this, you'll acknowledge that this isn't a defence of your original statement, right? Your original statement is still wrong. Self healing was absurdly powerful in the final stages of Circle because it worked with the already very powerful medkits, so it wasn't just "efficient". Then you said that "healing got nerfed", which is flat out wrong, that just didn't happen.
A misnomer then. 'Healing' as in, 'trying to stay healed up'. That did get nerfed.
So, obviously Circle hasn't "been effectively removed"
It's well outside the meta now and largely unfeasible for solo play. Maybe some swiffers will still use it, but they're probably going to resort to more effective options.
that doesn't mean it was okay before, when injuries just flat out didn't matter.
Point is that they did matter. Because all that time spent on self-caring was -not- spent on gens. Which goes back to @I_Tunnel 's point: people used to heal a lot, and now they're much more likely to stay injured. Likely because, especially in solo queue, healing (As in the effort to stay healthy) did cop a hefty nerf.
As someone who regularly played as part of a duo, I see little to no point in CoH. My build is WoO, We'll Make It, Off The Record, and Second Wind. My duo partner usually runs Self-Care, Botany Knowledge, Lithe, and Off The Record.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647685#Comment_3647685
Tunneling isn't competing with genrushing
They are the same thing; Each side trying to win as efficiently as possible.
Genrushing is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to survivors doing their objective.
And tunneling is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to Killers doing their objective.
Survivors are "tunneling generators" if they work on generators that already have progress.
And Killers are 'Tunneling survivors' if they already hook a Survivor they have progress on.
So if 'genrushing' is not real, then neither is 'tunneling'.
I'm not talking about petty endgame chat. I'm talking about here, on the forum.
Tunneling isn't thrown around to refer to a killer just doing their objective. It's very specifically choosing to eliminate one survivor as quickly as possible, to the detriment of other objectives.
Genrushing involves survivors bringing everything they can to repair gens faster, to the detriment of their other objectives. They sacrifice altruism to focus on completing their objective as quickly as possible.
At no point did I say genrushing isn't real. What I said was that genrushing isn't competing with tunneling. Which it isn't. They aren't the same thing, because while one side is playing normally, the other side is playing as efficiently as possible.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648662#Comment_3648662
Ah yes. The Survivors have nothing to do but gens (Not healing, or unhooking, or opening chests or doing totems..) but the poor, mean Killer can always just play badly and not tunnel, even if it's the optimal play!
Just more 'The Killer is responsible for Survivor fun' while absolving Survivors of the reverse.
There's just no reason to cleanse dull totems, and there's no reason to open chests when you can bring items into the trial.
The same can't be said for killer, however, since it is far more beneficial and effective to not tunnel. The only thing that makes tunneling effective is that it provides permanent slowdown. Aside from that, it really is an inefficient playstyle.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The actual double standard is that the requirement for problematic killer behavior is so very low, and killers can easy do these things, with minimal effort, in every game…….
…But the requirement for problematic survivor behavior is super hyper specific, and can only be done under extremely specific conditions that survivors can’t possibly even attempt to do in every game.
Killers can tunnel without any perks, add-ons, or offerings. They can also camp without any perks, add-ons, or offerings.
For one survivor to rush gens, they need a green toolbox, perks to repair the gens faster, and a perk to replenish their item's charges, or increase the item's efficiency.
Genrushing is about completing the generators as quickly as possible, often to the detriment of other objectives. Genrush teams will often ignore someone on hook to smash out gens.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648574#Comment_3648574
But they're not treating it like an opinion.
They've decided tunneling means something different and, under their definition, everyone else is wrong to use 'tunneling gens' as an argument.
Do you know what the criteria is for a survivor to not tunnel generators? Not work a generator that already has progress. To start a fresh generator every time.
The criteria for a killer to not tunnel is to simply target a survivor other than the one who was just unhooked.
The two are not the same, and the phrase only exists because survivors complain about tunneling.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643581#Comment_3643581
It's not about free wins. No other strategy feels impactful. Every thing but tunneling has been nerfed into the ground and can't compete against gen rushing. The problem is constant nerfs, and not just for killers. Survivors don't have anything to do but gens, because nothing else feels impactful.
The solution is not more nerfs, but wholesale buffs to everything. Give hexes a passive buff when they're broken, take it away with pintemento. Let coh self heal, make the self heal immune to all speed upgrades. Make BBQ, thantaphobia, and monstrous shrine good perks. ######### it, make all heal boosts more powerful, but mutually exclusive so they don't stack. Make anything but the current meta useful, because mechanically, tunneling should be the weakest it's ever been
It has historically been proven that the carrot approach to tunneling just does not work. The only thing that kept a lid on tunneling was DS with its 5-second stun, coupled with "DH for distance". DH got reworked, and DS got nerfed.
Tunneling isn't competing with genrushing. Genrushing is a term that gets thrown around a lot to just refer to survivors doing their objective. Survivors are "tunneling generators" if they work on generators that already have progress. They're genrushing, because 3 gens popped in the first 3 minutes and the killer hasn't gotten a down yet (Largely due to poor map design).
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I haven't played much of the Lights out Modifier yet, but I've been having a lot of fun with it.
Ghostface - 4k
Trapper - 2k
Twins - 3k
Trapper - 2k
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There really isn't a way to eliminate genrushing or tunneling without imposing either restrictions on players or nerfing the tools that makes these strategies viable in the first place.
Instead of eliminating, I'd prefer to reduce the frequency. For genrushing, specifically, I'd like to see a nerf to stacking up on gens. Two to a gen takes something like 50 seconds to repair, without toolboxes. It likely takes about 30 just to cross one of the larger maps. So, something like 60 - 70 seconds for two people to repair a gen together would be more appropriate.
For tunneling: Freshly unhooked survivors no longer have endurance, instead gain 15% haste, and have their collision removed for X seconds. They can't bodyblock, and they can't interact with lockers or pallets. The haste will discourage killers from just sniffing the survivor's butt until they're able to be hit again.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597764#Comment_3597764
Bodyblocking is done to extend the chase for the survivor initially being chased. While true that its one survivor not working on gens, the impact of said bodyblock is not concrete. Sometimes it will be near pointless, and sometimes it could lead to the initial survivor reaching a strong structure/loop and wasting a lot more of the killer's time than if there was no bodyblock and they went down (also don't forget, this will also reset bloodlust.) Maps like Garden of Joy, Badham, The Game, and Haddonfield are examples of maps where it could be a pretty significant extension of the chase.
Killers who understand the chase has been extended will often try to take the downed survivor as a consolation prize, with DS then creating a lose/lose situation. It still does this even in its current form, but the survivor needs to make sure they are near a pallet or strong window before being picked up.
So yes, sometimes it is free pressure, and sometimes it is pressure lost. That all depends on how strategically the tools are used.
Is it not, strategically, more advantageous to have as few survivors working generators as possible?
Let's say the survivor with OTR + DS weaponizes them. They get slugged. Unless they're also running Unbreakable, someone has to get off a gen to pick them up. Meanwhile, the killer still has the option of chasing the unhooker. So that's now 3 people off gens.
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It's fine and doesn't need changing. It does what it's supposed to. Nothing more, nothing less.
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@MigrantTheGreat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596255#Comment_3596255
You say you've been playing since 17' and you still don't get why it's a crutch and why bringing the 5s back is a bad idea?
What makes it a crutch? Let's see
Base kit BT that's synergizes with OTR (CHANCE 1)
Weather OTR is used or not and you go down DS to get free (chance 2)
Now that your free you can use DH to take another hit (chance 3)
Now let's say you didn't have OTR and the killer had no intent to tunnel so they slug you to avoid DS (practically chance 2 or 3)
If you've been playing since 17' doesn't this sound familiar?
What is the survivors primary objective? Generators. Now, explain to me exactly how "weaponizing" ds and otr contributes to that objective.
You have one idiot wasting time annoying the killer, not contributing to the objective, and one other person being chased. The other two survivors are doing the objective.
Why are we upset about literally free pressure?
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597598#Comment_3597598
About weaponizing anti-tunnel perks, i have 2 suggestions:
- While under any Endurance effect, the survivor does not have collision with the killer. This could prevent survivor who have being just unhooked to bodyblock a killer to force them eat their Off The Record and/or Borrow Time. Also, this would prevent some killer from bodyblocking a just unhooked survivor to wait the 10s Basekit BT to down them again.
- Prevent Decisive from activating from lockers. This way, a survivor could not bodyblock, lose a health state and then go into to the locker to force DS, leaving at least the option for the killer to slug the survivor in case he/she tries to bodyblock for a friend. Of course they will use UB + DS again, but at least they are forced to use their Unbrekable in this situation.
About "weaponizing" anti-tunnel perks. I feel like I'm just not understanding what the problem is here, exactly.
If I understand correctly, 5s DS would be a "problem" because it could be weaponized in tandem with OTR to body block and either extend a chase or stun the killer.
Now, you know this very aggressive survivor has DS because they were just recently unhooked. So, Why would you pick them up? Further, if they're doing this, that means you have two survivors not on gens. Is that not a good thing?
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597634#Comment_3597634
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597643#Comment_3597643
I was being facetious but never mind.
More seriously I probably play a bit more killer than survivor but I wouldn't describe myself as a "main" of anything. Because frankly the moment you join a "camp" you lose all objectivity. We humans are inherently tribal and the stronger that tribalism is, typically the more blind to outside opinion and unreasonable we are.
I don't main a particular side, all I do is play DBD.
As a general rule of thumb, I try to think about the other side and how things affect them. I'm not committed to this game enough to be in either camp.
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@moulesfrites said:
I'm sorry to !@#$ in your cereal but why would you thank Behaviour? You do remember that they made Made for This in the first place, right? But then again, they didn't leave MfT for 6 years, instead it's 6 months, like they did with Dead Hard, so at least that's a bit commendable I suppose.
If all you ever do is complain, then there's no reason to listen to any feedback you might provide, valid or otherwise.
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I disagree with this. I "main" survivor, but I dabble in killer occasionally. When I first started playing dbd, I was a killer main. I didn't really like survivor. I even gravitated towards the harder killers at the time (Nurse, Huntress), and this was back when Nurse had 5 blinks.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
I would say about 90% of killers would quit if they added 5 sec DS back.
They really wouldn't. Even with 5s DS, it goes a little like this: Survivor has DS > Killer ignores unhooked Survivor > Killer targets unhooker > Unhooked Survivor uses DS + OTR altruistically to attempt to extend chase > Only two survivors on gens > Unhooked survivor has to mend and get healed to continue being a nuisance if they want to preserve DS > Unhooker eventually gets downed.
If survivors want to give the killer free pressure, why look a gift maurice in the mouth?
@Z0mbiv0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596269#Comment_3596269
Wouldn't it be simpler to just not abuse a perk provided to prevent tunnelling? I hate tunnelling as much as the next guy and I never tunnel as a killer, but survivors have a way of abusing every single tool given to them. So yeah, a protection hit should disable DS. If that's done, I don't care how much they increase it to.
Protection hits are weird in that they're proximity based. You might not even be trying to bodyblock the killer, but because you happened to get hit after getting unhooked, that counted as a protection hit and now you don't have DS.
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@tjt85 said:
I think part of the problem is map design. Take RPD for example. That map sometimes has 5 gens spawn really close together in or off the main hall, and two that often spawn at the top and bottom of the stairs. When I'm playing Killer on this map, I pretty much almost never need to leave this area.
So how would they fix 3 gen on a map that small? The gens have to go somewhere.
I also wonder how many Killer wins come from exploiting a 3 gen situation? Holding one from the very start is a fairly rare Killer strat from my experience (aside from Skull Merchant), but most can and will take advantage if they're given one. So I think certain Killers will struggle to maintain a 50-60% Kill rate if they make it so that Survivors can never screw up and 3 gen themselves.
We'll see what they come up with but like with the AFC, I don't think it will be too radical.
I don't play much killer anymore, but whenever I do play killer, all my wins stem from 3-gens. I don't intentionally go for a 3-gen, I'm just really good at gen defense. I'll drop a chase to push survivors off a gen. I'm conscious of how long I've been in a chase for, and I pay close attention to generators that have a lot of progress.
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I disagree. I think hook spawns should be addressed before we think about removing the hook break feature. Haddonfield in particular has some pretty weird hook spawns where survivors can be hooked within 8m of each other.
Maybe it's time to give up on the whole RNG aspect of hook spawns.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594111#Comment_3594111
So you're saying you won't lose 3 gens by the time you hook 4 unqiue survivors against a good team? So wrong. Otz tested Grim Embrace on every killer and the average time Grim Embrace activated was with 0-2 gens left. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUWTCtrvfb8.
Otz is high MMR. The average player isn't high MMR. At high MMR, survivors rarely make mistakes which is why tunneling is necessary. The average player isn't high MMR and makes plenty of mistakes.
I never stated that you wouldn't lose 3 gens by time you get four unique hooks against a good a team. Against a "good team", you're likely to lose all your gens if you don't tunnel, but unless you're at high mmr (which you won't be as a casual player) you're about as likely to go against a "good team" as the casual survivor is to go against a god nurse. While it does happen, it doesn't happen often enough to really matter.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594035#Comment_3594035
"Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that tunneling is unbalanced. It's unfun, period. You are arguing that your suggestions are fine because tunneling is stronger. Fixing tunneling by giving the killer a reward for not tunneling that is equal to tunneling someone out just creates a new problem. Your suggestions are unbalanced. Tunneling is not. See the difference?"
No, I don't. If tunnelling is balanced, how is an effect weaker than tunnelling unbalanced?
"Being farmed off hook by a teammate was what is known as survivor-induced tunneling. It's still tunneling, but the reason for it was a teammate not running BT and going for unsafe rescues. It's easier to not call it tunneling because the killer is expected to capitalise on survivor mistakes, and not doing so would be tantamount to throwing."
It really doesn't matter what they put in the developer update. Those of us who were around before basekit BT know that being farmed by teammates was one of the top complaints, and basekit BT was implemented as a result of that."
Tunnelling is going for the same survivor multiple times to kill them fast. You can call it hook farming or w/e but it still falls within the definition of tunnelling.
Back then, most survivors had DS and there was still a high risk of BT. Going for the unhooked survivor was risky. If they did it, they were knowingly tunnelling.
Tunneling is balanced, but unfun. It comes down to a matter of skill. At an intermediate skill level, you're likely to lose at least 3 gens by time you get your first kill if you're tunneling. It's high-risk, high-reward. Pick the wrong survivor to tunnel, and you're walking away with a 1k at best.
What you're proposing is zero risk, maximum reward. For just four unique hooks, survivors end up with a 25% debuff to action speed. There's no risk here.
Then there's your second suggestion, which is to undo all the progress invested into a completed generator and then block all generators for 30 seconds. Where's the risk? There is none. There's only maximum reward. Even with all of that, you can still choose to tunnel.
I don't think you're understanding just how terrible those suggestions are. You have zero consideration for the other side and only think about how best to incentivise killers to not tunnel. There is no simple solution. The solution to tunneling needs to be something that is fair for both sides. There needs to be appropriate counterplay, and it can't be too strong. That's what it means for something to be balanced.
When someone is tunneled out, the action speed doesn't change. What changes is the number of people that can be on generators at any given time. With four people, the most that can realistically be on generators is three. Minus one survivor, now it's two. Minus one, now it's one. I cannot make it any easier to understand than that.
Tunneling is intentionally going for the same survivor repeatedly. While hook farming technically fit the definition of tunneling, people didn't call it out as tunneling because it's not the killer's fault you had dumb teammates. DS was common, sure, but people liked to save their DS for the endgame. BT was also common, but given that this was before SBMM was implemented, you could have several games where you had dumb teammates.
If you still don't get it by this point, I'll sum it up for you. Tunneling = Balanced, but unfun. Your suggestions = Unbalanced, unfun, overpowered.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593978#Comment_3593978
No Made For This
Exhaustion perks: Dead Hard, Adrenaline, Background Player (recently buffed)
2 Deja Vu (one of them combined with Resilience = gen rush)
2 Unbreakable
Windows of Opportunity
Off the Record
Deliverance
For The People + Buckle Up
Also 2 flashlights, an item bound to receive a nerf very soon
Everything that is gonna be part of the next big complaints by DBD players. Just wait.
This is precisely why I was against a nerf to MFT. It lacked sufficient counterplay, which is what should've been addressed. Now we'll go back to the old reliable exhaustion perks which people will inevitably complain about again.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593970#Comment_3593970
In essence, you're arguing that tunnelling in its current form is unbalanced. I don't think it is unbalanced when most killers are doing it and kill rates are near their target of 60%. I've provided solutions that are comparable to tunnelling someone out. Whether tunnelling is balanced is another discussion, which I don't care enough to argue about.
As for basekit BT, that was implemented to address an entirely different issue which was that survivors would get farmed off-hook by their teammates who would go for unsafe rescues without running BT. It was incredibly frustrating to have no agency in the matter. You would get unhooked, immediately get downed again, and put back on the hook.
Nope. In the developer update where they introduced base kit Borrowed Time, they specifically said it was implemented to address camping and tunnelling.
There's also no reason to stop at removing base kit Borrowed Time. Since tunnelling is still happening, we should just remove every anti-tunnel perk, e.g. OTR and DS.
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that tunneling is unbalanced. It's unfun, period. You are arguing that your suggestions are fine because tunneling is stronger. Fixing tunneling by giving the killer a reward for not tunneling that is equal to tunneling someone out just creates a new problem. Your suggestions are unbalanced. Tunneling is not. See the difference?
Being farmed off hook by a teammate was what is known as survivor-induced tunneling. It's still tunneling, but the reason for it was a teammate not running BT and going for unsafe rescues. It's easier to not call it tunneling because the killer is expected to capitalise on survivor mistakes, and not doing so would be tantamount to throwing.
It really doesn't matter what they put in the developer update. Those of us who were around before basekit BT know that being farmed by teammates was one of the top complaints, and basekit BT was implemented as a result of that.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593601#Comment_3593601
Those are terrible perks no one runs. You keep giving me these examples but I already told you that when you tunnel someone out, there is at minimum a 33% reduction in gen speeds, so if someone tunneled and ran the perks you mentioned, it would be a 65% reduction in gen speeds. Yet no one is doing this or complaining about it.
Another solution could be that when you hook 4 different survivors and 4 survivors are alive, a random completed gen is sabotaged undoing all its progress and all generators are blocked for 30 seconds. There are 5 gens. A 25% increase in gen times would be equivalent to 1.25 gens. Note that killing a survivor also reduces action speed.
Also, even if the solution doesn't stop tunnelling completely, I think it's silly to think that nothing should be implemented. That's like saying they should remove base kit borrowed time because people are still tunnelling.
Again, you are missing the point. What you are suggesting is not balanced. How much clearer do I need to be?
When someone is tunneled out, it results in the match slowing down because there are less survivors on gens, reducing their efficiency without actually affecting how long it takes to complete a generator.
When someone is tunneled out, it still takes 90 seconds to complete a generator solo. That doesn't change. What changes is the amount of people that can be working on gens. So, no, it doesn't result in a 33% reduction in gen speeds.
Your suggestion is to increase gen times via a debuff. Your second suggestion is extremely unbalanced. A basekit effect for not tunneling that undoes a completed generator, resetting it to zero and blocks all generators for 30 seconds. For either of your suggestions to be balanced, survivors would need something equally strong for not genrushing and even that would destroy the overall balance of the game.
Tunneling needs to be addressed, sure, but it isn't worth destroying the game's balance to do so.
As for basekit BT, that was implemented to address an entirely different issue which was that survivors would get farmed off-hook by their teammates who would go for unsafe rescues without running BT. It was incredibly frustrating to have no agency in the matter. You would get unhooked, immediately get downed again, and put back on the hook.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593216#Comment_3593216
well, it isn't "cheating" but it also isn't "not cheating", its in a greyzone of acceptability, much like visual game filters are.
You DO get a noticeable advantage over non-visual HB users as someone above demonstrated otherwise why would non-hearing impaired individuals use the feature.
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Also, like op pointed out, killers also need accesibility features, a basic crosshair , directional audio indicators and customizable aura colors are things that aren't all that difficult to do and most of them can be incorporated with already existing gamecode.
I use it because I play in a swf and my friend always has his audio routed through his soundbar but party chat through headphones. This results in situations where I can't tell if the TR is on his side or mine, since I route all my audio through my headphones.
Outside of a few exceptions, though, non-hearing impaired people are using it for an advantage.
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The only way for you to know they're PS5 is if you're also on PS5. What you're seeing is survivors lagging. Their ping is incredibly high. Likely a result of them using a VPN to connect to a distant region.
Had this happen to me as killer when I played against a guy from germany. I live in Australia.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593357#Comment_3593357
In the current game state, we can already tunnel a survivor out and achieve a stronger version of this Thana you're describing. Complaining about the action speed penalty doesn't make sense when a stronger version of it is already in the game, which survivors don't complain about. When survivors complain about tunnelling, they're complaining about dying fast, being unable to play, and not having fun. They're not complaining about the action speed penalty afterwards that results from dying. This is based on comments I've read about tunnelling https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/3499887039228967158/
People aren't complaining about the reduction in efficiency after someone's been tunneled out because that reduction in efficiency would happen even if the killer didn't tunnel.
But what you're suggesting is that for 1 hook per survivor, the survivors get a 25% debuff to action speed.
Now, let's assume the killer is a standard M1 killer running Gift of Pain and Dying Light. 3 Stacks of Dying Light is 9%. Gift of Pain is 16%. Combined with your idea of 25% for 4 unique hooks, that's a 57.33% penalty or 0.57 charges per second, assuming my math is correct. That's now 157 seconds to complete a generator solo.
To make it clear, the point isn't how feasible this is. The point is that there is no simple fix to tunneling that doesn't remove killer agency, provides sufficient incentive or reward to not tunnel, and is also balanced.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592776#Comment_3592776
A 25% action speed penalty is actually still weaker than a survivor dying, which is why I think it's balanced. It's a misconception that killing a survivor results in a 25% reduction in gen speeds. The killer is usually in chase with 1 survivor, so 3 survivors working on gens is usually the maximum. Killing 1 survivor results in 2 survivors working on gens, so in reality, killing a survivor actually results in a 33% gen speed reduction. Though, with 3 survivors, you usually have 1 survivor on a hook, 1 survivor unhooking and healing, and 1 survivor on a gen, so the actual gen speed is lower.
There's the question of why not tunnel if it's still stronger? The outcome of tunnelling is stronger but the method to achieve is weaker. Tunnelling is much harder than just chasing another survivor. Tunnelling requires you to stay near the hook and chase survivors into parts of the map with completed gens and uncleared pallets, which means you can't pressure gens and the chases are harder.
Overall, I think the change I suggested is very close to tunnelling a survivor out and killers would choose it over tunnelling since it's easier to just hook another person. This change won't end tunnelling but it will significantly reduce it.
You mentioned Thana but you need 4 survivors injured for that, which is extremely diffficult even for Plague and Legion, which is why they don't run the perk. I also mentioned a 5 minute limit to prevent the survivors from being 3 gened.
The overall efficiency of each survivor is equal to 25%. Killing a survivor results in 25% less efficiency, as one survivor is worth 25%. The team is 25% less efficient when they are a man down. With 4 people, you can have one in chase, and a 2-1 split on gens. With 3 people, you can have 1 in chase and 2 working gens either separately or together. The team is significantly less likely to escape when they are a man down because they are less efficient.
Your suggestion may indeed alleviate tunneling, but is an equally terrible outcome. You've suggested basekit 4-stack Thana, with the activation condition of Grim Embrace. A 25% reduction is massive for a basekit change. The killrate would go up, while the escape rate would drop. It already takes 90 seconds to complete a generator solo. A 25% reduction increases that by a whole 30 seconds. That's now 2 minutes to complete a generator solo. Assuming my math is correct, it would take around 83 seconds for two survivors to complete a generator together. That is, in no way, balanced.
Thana was just the first perk that came to mind, but there are other perks that reduce the repair efficiency that would stack with this basekit change. The point was never how feasible getting 4 stacks of Thana is, the point was that a basekit action speed penalty debuff stacks with other debuffs.
If I were to flip this and suggest survivors get a buff to action speed if someone is tunneled out of the game, killers would be the first to denounce it as punishing them for playing efficiently.
Rewarding the killer for not tunneling by giving them extra BP or emblem score won't work since they don't care about that. They also aren't going to care about a basekit grim embrace because the payoff just isn't the same as eliminating someone and having permanent slowdown.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592234#Comment_3592234
Sounds good but a buff like that would likely throw Ruin back into the meta.
I wouldn't mind Ruin being meta again. It was annoying to see it every game, sure, but at least it made things more interesting than just sitting on gens.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592727#Comment_3592727
I haven't thought of balancing it perfectly but here is one example. Hooking a different survivor than the previous one 4 times in a row causes all survivors to suffer a 25% action speed penalty. This effect deactivates once a survivor dies and only activates when 4 survivors are alive. This effect deactivates after 5 minutes (to prevent 3 gening).
You have to think about how these effects will interact with other perks. So, a basekit slowdown of 25% stacking with, say, Thana (Which has a max of 20%) that's now 45% slowdown just for not tunneling.
25% is equal to one survivor. While this would be an adequate incentive to not tunnel, it would take survivors far too long to do a generator. This wouldn't go down well with survivors.
This is why I say there is no reward that both incentivises killers to not tunnel and is balanced. Anything short of 25% slowdown is going to result in killers opting to tunnel because it's easier.