Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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@EvilBarney666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552240#Comment_3552240
I get that. It's true not alot of swf are death sweat squads. But, you have to admit, being able to call things out is an advantage. Solo players can't know if the killer is chasing someone or if they are coming near by hearing the heartbeat.
However, swf can. "Hey guys he is on me stay on the gens" well a solo might leave the gen if he hears the heartbeat. But a swf won't cause they know. If the killer peels off of the chase tp go towards a gen swf just says, he left me he's coming to you. They run early.
So that's what I'm talking about. It's that level of communication that they should not have. Death squad or just friends chilling. It's unfair to the killer. But the killer just has to accept it and deal with it.
The HUD changes were literally for solo queue. They can tell if someone's in chase just by looking at the hud. It isn't "unfair" to the killer that swf's can communicate.
The thing is that there's as much variation in skill amongst swfs as there is with solo's. A good swf doesn't need comms because they know each other and their habits. One quick glance at the hud, and you know if the killer's in chase. Panning your camera in situations where the killer is chasing nearby helps to ensure you aren't caught off-guard.
Comms simply aren't as big a deal as you think they are, at least when it comes to average swfs that is. You might be able to make a case for something like Hens' swf games where comms are extremely important, but all that has to be communicated and planned out prior to the match.
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@EvilBarney666 said:
I still contend that SWF can be a problem for killers. Especially if they have comms. I feel in this day and age of online gaming that if you play games with your friends then your most likely in a chat service of some type.
Killers are givin nothing to compensate for the communication that survivors get by using 3rd party chat. True, you can't say that everyone in SWF is using comms, but I think it safe to say we know the majority of SWF is.
Take pallet Freddy for example. In a game of all solo players you might get the majority of survivors with a surprise fake pallet. However in a SWF they just call out, Hey! Fake pallets, drop them early.
As a killer that sucks. They just ruined your build by having an advantage they should not have had. Again, the killer is given nothing in compensation. They just have to deal with it. I could go on and on about it.
As to what could be done to balance it. I have no idea. I just hope they do something. Until then tho, I will keep playing, keep doing the best I cam and keep having fun. After all, at the end of the day.. it's just a game.
Killers don't need anything as compensation for comms. Not everyone is a 4-man death squad relaying perfect information and nothing else. Most of the time, it's just banter between friends with situational callouts like "Shack pallet's gone" and "Killer's on me", "I lost them around main", "Killer's camping", "I'll get the save" rather than constant location callouts.
The thing that makes swf strong isn't comms. It's reliable teammates.
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Kate. At first I picked her because she was the most attractive, but since then I've come to really like her cosmetics.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549501#Comment_3549501
people forget who they hooked. that is why your asking a UI to not forget. this is something survivor seeing gen aura's. counting hook is a basic killer skill.
People who tunnel don't forget that they hooked Dwight less than a minute ago. There's no reason for killer to not have it. File it under accessibility if you wish, but counting hooks isn't a big deal unless you're going for a 12-hook game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549401#Comment_3549401
it is giving UI for player that are not good at tunneling to tunnel efficiently.
That doesn't make any sense. If you've hooked Dwight, you know to target him as soon as he's unhooked.
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@kin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/392405/should-killers-see-hook-stages
In a compartment with an indication of which survivor you are running after, it would encourage "prioritization" (more precisely, it facilitated, and then not so much, but still)which many also consider a tunnel. I think because of this logic, they did not do it.
Their official stance on the matter was that it promoted tunneling, but a killer who wants to tunnel doesn't need the HUD to tell them that. Let's say you have Kate, Claudette, Dwight and David in a match.
Dwight's the first found, first downed, and first hooked. The killer knows that Dwight has been hooked once. Dwight gets rescued. The killer targets Dwight again. No need to worry about not having a tally next to Dwight's name to tell them that they've hooked Dwight.
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@[Deleted User] said:
People have long been defending the perk by saying that it’s not even that useful if you’re good at the game and memorise maps.
As you say, it shows you what areas have resources without having to physically see them.
I think a cool-down after dropping a pallet or vaulting is necessary, but to be fair, it keeps blindness relevant as a status effect.
Slapping a cooldown on it ensures the perk goes back to not being used. It originally had a cooldown, and wasn't seeing use because of that.
An experienced survivor is going to greed a loop to maximize the value they get out of that loop, while baby Kate is going to pre-drop or camp every pallet and keep on running.
On Ormond, there is a line of pallets between the snow tractor and killer shack. Baby Kate is going to pre-drop all of those, while Dwight with 1000 hours is going to greed the tractor pallet, maybe even sacrifice a health state and then go towards shack.
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Yes. In fact, back when this feature was unveiled, many people questioned why the killer couldn't see hook stages. I think it was unanimously agreed upon within the community that killers should be able to see hook states.
BHVR, however, believes that it would encourage tunneling. I'm pretty sure that's something almost everyone disagrees with.
@NerfedFreddy said:
No it encourages tunneling and efficient plays. If killer wants it they should memorize it. That's a part of effort and commitment and shouldn't be given for free
It really doesn't. If a killer wants to tunnel, they don't need to know who hasn't been hooked. They only need to remember that Survivor A has been hooked.
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@GensByDaylight said:
No.
Why not? It's a cesspool of toxicity, is it not? Killers complain about survivors mocking them in endgame chat for playing nice, and then they pay that toxicity forward by responding with toxicity of their own, as if that'll teach the previous group a lesson.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548376#Comment_3548376
And now that a 12-hook game is all but guaranteed, I wonder how you'd fix all the problems it would create.
By fixing maps, among other things. Less "safe" loops, more 50-50 loops. Less useless filler pallets. Reworking generators so that to start a generator, survivors need to search chests for parts. Nurse rework and Blight add-on nerfs so the game can be balanced around a singular standard.
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I think we should be rethinking anti-tunnel mechanics. Instead of extending basekit endurance, what if an unhooked survivor moves at 8.0m/s for, say, 5 seconds? This is enough to cover 40 meters of distance, which would naturally discourage the killer from going after that survivor since it guarantees they make it safely to a loop. Have it deactivate in endgame, obviously.
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Texas Chainsaw has built-in comms for both Victims and Family, and guess what? There is a massive divide between those who do use comms and those who don't. The game is significantly harder for those without, and significantly easier for those with. It's a balancing nightmare.
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@Khylwch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548211#Comment_3548211
Really so if you are hooked in the hallway of the school ground floor, your teammate is spotted on the second floor and keeps the chase above you. You get a free deliverance when the killer is not camping you and cannot reach you. Plus the timer starts on hook so it's ticking if the killer leaves right away, or breaks a pallet, or kicks a gen or even reloads. How can you say that this does not effect killers who aren't camping more than dedicated campers who with skill and add ons can still face camp at will. A bad solution that doesn't help. Going for terror radius is way worse as many perks and especially doctor rely on larger terror radius for their builds
I believe they took into account the killer being in chase near the hook, and made it so the meter does not fill.
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@Khylwch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547187#Comment_3547187
Except the solution implementation was poor. Why should killers who aren't face camping get punished ? Timer starts at hook. So if you want to break a pallet or reload or kick a gen the timer is running. Even if you leave immediately you build up time. Survivors can exploit easily. Who gets the advantage picking maps.... survivors so they will pick the multi level maps because a killer on another level still sets off the timer. I know it was added so you couldn't stand at the top of the stairs. Bad process. Just like scourge hooks both the survivors and the killer are aware of how dangerous the basement is. The hooks don't go away and players are cornered. Bit it's usually a risk to try and get the survivors to the basement unless you just get lucky. Opening a huge exploit for survivors will really hurt the game. The basement is a design feature that puts the survivor at a disadvantage but adds a lot to the game. But seriously they devs would have been better off removing basements than opening this exploit. I know a lot of killers who stopped playing over this rollout and none were campers.
Killers aren't being punished. The timer is proximity-based. The closer you are to the hooked survivor, the faster their self-unhook meter will fill. The further you are, the slower it fills. At the top of the basement stairs on Gas Heaven, it takes right up until second stage for the survivor to self-unhook. This doesn't sound like the huge exploit you're making it out to be.
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@DemonDaddy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547833#Comment_3547833
No not camping, if anything I'm advocating for the sense of risk and danger experienced by the unhooking survivor. I have no concerns about hooks or camping when playing killer but do enjoy the tactical applications of them when playing survivor as the potential outcome encourages less reckless play. Turning the act of a rescue into a boring and riskless action has no appeal for me.
I would argue that the hooked survivor did have a chance to play and failed multiple times to secure additional time or chances. They specifically failed at avoiding detection and then failed again when unable to escape the chase. At this point a survivors efforts are paused as a result and become reliant on teammates to avoid the same failures to make a rescue.
There is still very much a sense of risk and danger for the rescuer, but that no longer comes at the expense of the rescuee. The survivor doing the rescuing is still very much able to be intercepted and can possibly trade places with the person on the hook.
The survivor who's hooked and being camped from first hook to death hook gets to sit there and do nothing. They are not, in fact, having fun. This is why camping is being changed. There is still risk. That has not changed.
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@totallynotamegmain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547860#Comment_3547860
2 teammates rush the hook forcing the killer to stay near resulting in a forced self unhook. Repeated until only 1 survivor is left
the last teammate would be Jen jockeying the whole game
They already accounted for this.
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@DemonDaddy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546069#Comment_3546069
Why is limiting the killer's agency and ability to create pressure outside of chase the best option? Why not create more altruistic options for teammates to engauge in for providing the oppurtunity instead of just giving it for free?
The person being camped isn't getting to play the game. They derive zero enjoyment from seeing other people play the game while they sit there on the hook and the killer just stares at them.
I don't understand why you're advocating for camping to remain a valid tactic when it adds nothing to the game. There are a thousand reasons and then some for why someone might choose to camp. You don't need to camp to create pressure.
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Xeno is still a very strong A-Tier. C-Tier would be putting Xeno on par with Wraith, imo. Xeno was given a very unnecessary buff following the release from PTB to Live. Only now that that buff has been reverted are people upset.
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@dwight444 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542507#Comment_3542507
lol wut
he should be able to break the turrets, keep the same distance on a survivor or opt to not break them, remain in power, and still be on the survivor's ass????
######### are you supposed to do as a survivor at that point?
Die, I guess.
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Xeno is still a very strong A-Tier, and from what I saw of the patch notes, Xeno was reverted to the PTB State rather than actually nerfed. Xeno was way too strong, with no drawback for missing tail attacks.
As for the refund, you won't get one. You also can't sue, as you don't have any legal grounds to do so. I could go into detail, but that'd be a waste of my time.
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My idea is a perk that functions like Sloppy Butcher, but causes exhaustion instead. On a successful basic M1 attack, cause exhaustion for 45 seconds. Has a cooldown of 60 seconds.
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Something people in this thread seem to be forgetting is that if MFT loses the haste, the perk becomes useless. We then rotate back to SB/Lithe/DH. Then those get complained about ad nauseum.
Why are people running MFT+Resilience? Because healing feels bad, and pointless. CoH gutted. Self-care nerfed. Medkits nerfed. I won't argue that CoH needed to be nerfed, because it was just way too strong with the values it had at the time. To completely gut it the way they did, however, was completely unnecessary and lazy.
The devs have made it quite clear they want to avoid stale metas, but that's what you get if you keep nerfing every strong perk into the ground. This is true for both survivors and killers.
Did Xeno really need to release with (yet another) aura reading perk? Was Rapid Brutality really the right call? Why couldn't we have seen a perk that inflicts Exhausted on a basic attack, like Sloppy does with Mangled and Hemmorhage?
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536473#Comment_3536473
To be fair I would accept the alternative of keeping the Endurance, and swapping the haste values of MfT and Dark Theory.
Why are people so obsessed with buffing Dark Theory? It could be 5% haste and the perk would still be bad. Find a totem, bless the totem, pray you get chased in the boon's radius, move the boon around as the match progresses.
It just isn't worth it. The time you take to find a totem, and then bless said totem, is time spent not on a generator. In the current state of the game, survivors can scarcely afford to be wasting time not doing generators.
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No.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
This brings up another question.... is Franklin's justified now that the medkits are considerably nerfed? Tollboxes will usually be consumed (I think) by the time you get to apply franklin's on them anyway.
It's hard to say honestly, since reducing the charges of an item dropped by Frankie's was originally introduced to counter Keys. But then the hatch changes came in and made keys borderline useless.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528417#Comment_3528417
Blatantly disregarding that even though Billy and bubba have damaging M2's they still have to play loops the same way a regular M1 does hence get screwed by MFT.
Blatantly disregarding that Ghostie is a *Pure M1* and he can be revealed by survivors hence nullifying his power.
Freddy and clown dont have their power always 100% up, hindering surivors, once again they are pure M1.
Singularity is at its core a pure M1 with a teleport ability.
All the ranged characters i've adressed in my previous post.
When it comes to pyramid head, blight,Wesker, Artist, etc *it is blatantly obvious that moving faster will make it easier to dodge* if speed wasn't important for dodging survivor mains wouldn't be up in arms against Blight's C33 , because you know, its *just 3% after all how bad can it be right?*
All in all, your entire post is disengenous and clearly shows you dont know how killers work. you're straightfaced saying wraith isn't an M1 killer... like jesus christ.
Theres no point in taking your opinions into consideration given that they are heavily biased and misinformed.
You're acting like they're running a quarter mile instantly. I don't know who's out here complaining about C33, but it just isn't a good add-on. I don't need MFT to dodge a Blight running C33. It's hilarious that the crux of your argument concerning Blight is that people complain about not being able to dodge C33.
I was dodging Wesker, Artist, Blight, Oni, Pyramid, and Billy's powers long before MFT existed. Let's not pretend like you'd be guaranteed to hit them if it weren't for that meddling MFT.
As for Wraith, he's an M1 killer yes, but he also moves significantly faster than survivors while cloaked, with add-ons that can make that faster.
Your entire case is founded on the assumption that A - Made for This is already active, and B - The survivor is at a safe loop. If the survivor is at a safe loop, I promise you it's not MFT that's the issue. MFT is only exacerbating existing issues.
If the survivor is at an unsafe loop, you'll hit them as Wraith and Bubba. You might have an issue with Billy, but Billy's power doesn't really shine at loops unless you're really good at him.
Freddy and Clown are not "pure M1 killers" just because their powers aren't active 100% of the time. Clown's power completely shuts down MFT.
Freddy has to put survivors in the dream state for his snares to work, and injuring survivors puts them in the dream state. Snares apply a 15% hindered. MFT is only 3% haste. That's a 12% movement speed reduction.
If you don't know how Freddy and Clown actually work, you shouldn't act like you do.
Singularity shuts down Pallet Loops, and using the right add-ons also shuts down MFT.
I covered the ranged killers, and won't do so again.
You're using the word disingeneous wrong. I'm not misrepresenting evidence that the majority of killers aren't screwed by MFT. You're looking for any reason to say MFT shuts down killers by placing it in the most ideal circumstance, which just does not happen all the time. That's disingeneous.
Any killer that has an exhaustion add-on isn't screwed by MFT. If your argument is "But I shouldn't have to run XYZ to counter a perk!" then you should stick to Call of Duty. If X Counters Y, Y counters Z, and Z counters X, then you can't complain when you choose not to use the tools given to you.
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528417#Comment_3528417
Lmao, how to say that you understand nothing about looping without saying it.
"Oh, killer is faster than me with MFT so he is not screwed by it", really STRONG logic
Try actually play the game maybe?
That isn't the "Gotcha" you think it is, my guy. I play the game plenty, and very rarely do I see a killer getting screwed by MFT. I also understand how looping works, but a killer moving at 115 with a larger hitbox is still going to eventually catch a survivor moving at 103% (Rounding up). A killer moving significantly faster than that is going to catch that survivor much faster. Especially at loops that can be mindgamed.
I'll make it a little simpler for you buddy. The killers who are, objectively, screwed by MFT are Trapper, Hag, Doctor, Pig, Sadako, Myers and Nemesis. 7 Killers are actually screwed by MFT. The others are impacted by it, but not adversely so. That's the key take away here.
Of course a perk that increases movement speed while injured is going to have an impact on every killer, but to imply it has the same impact on every killer is a very disingeneous argument that skews the facts to make it look like the perk is eggregiously overpowered, when it really isn't.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528403#Comment_3528403
Do you seriously want every killer and their mother all running sloppy butcher? Because that's how you get everyone running sloppy butcher.
They already do
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@LeFennecFox said:
With blood point webs made cheaper I see so many more very strong toolboxes/medkits why get mad the killer used 1/4 of his perk slots so 2 commodious bnp don't get pumped into a gen with crazy medkits
Just a reminder that medkits did get nerfed so now there's zero difference between the different medkit rarities other than altruistic healing speed.
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@Chewy102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527121#Comment_3527121
And what does that have to do with MFT? No one is running Sprint Burst, Lithe, or Balanced Landing with MFT. So the counters against those is worthless for MFT as the only "counter" for those is to bait them out. Most mainly use MFT with Dead Hard and the only "counters" for Dead Hard is to force a Survivor to be exhausted or bait it out. But there's not that many of perk/addons that apply exhausted or else Dead Hard wouldn't have been such a problem in the first place. And baiting/waiting out DH also isn't an option with MFT as MFT counter that counter as it forces a Killer to lunge more and lunge hits are easily tanked with Dead Hard.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527181#Comment_3527181
Player skill certainly effects balance. But that's a 2 way street. If you account for Killer skill, then you also account for Survivor skill. And the balance when accounting for player skill changes EVERYTHING! We could legit spend a year in debate going over on how skill effects just 1 Killer doing a constant back and forward of "what if"s between that 1 Killer, their power, their addons, their perks, what map it is, what the tile layout is, how many Survivors are alive/downed/hooked, how many gens remain, and more. Then go through ALL of that again comparing it to the other side of the coin for Survivor's skill, items/addons, perks, and so on. And repeat it all over again for each and every Killer.
Player skill is important. But it's impossible to account for without hard data we simply do not have and that the devs refuse or are unable to share. So we just gotta work with what we have. And that's a more general understanding of the game as a whole and it's fundamentals. And those fundamentals are being screwed by MFT due to those fundamentals being M1 Killer gamplay making up the vast majority of DbD outside of a select number of Killers with powers that aren't situational and a select few of those having powers that are actually dominate or vastly alter their gameplay with how different it is.
Player Skill is relevant in that you assume a degree of competency instead of observing things in a vacuum. A baby survivor is going to get zero value out of MFT, while a more experienced survivor who understands how to run loops but still makes mistakes is going to get some value out of MFT.
Rarely do you see MFT causing the problems at the average skill level that people say it does. The perk is a massive problem at high MMR, but what isn't? The game just isn't balanced for high MMR.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527689#Comment_3527689
"Individual player skill" is an irrelevant metric, nobody should have to be a 10k hour "I stream this game for a living" kind of killer just to be able to counter mid mmr survivors with MFT.
My list is accurate , but feel free to attempt to correct it, You saw the math, MFT actively screws 87.5% of killers and provides a relative soft counter via easier dodges against another 9.3%.
Thats well over 90% of killers being negatively impacted by MFT's existance, you cannot defend the perk, MFT needs to be gutted ,as soon as yesterday.
Player skill is a very relevant metric. If it wasn't, a baby survivor could loop M1 Killers for days.
It doesn't provide "easier dodges" and to say you need to be a 10k hour streamer to counter mid mmr survivors with MFT is disingeneous.
The list of killers adversely affected by MFT is actually pretty short. Myers, Trapper, Hag, Pig, Doctor, Sadako, and Nemesis. That's 7 killers.
Freddy and Clown both apply the same 15% hindered to survivors. Freddy via Dream Snares, and Clown via his purple gas.
Plague only has to be right up your butt, fully infect you and then insta-down you.
Ghostie can expose you. Also has two exhaustion add-ons.
Billy has an insta-down, and really good Billy players can curve short loops on a 90° angle.
Bubba has an insta-down. Moves at 5.29m/s during a chainsaw sweep. Not screwed by MFT.Z
Dredge's anti-loop forces survivors to either leave the loop, where they're most likely to go down or get downed at the loop via the remnant. If they leave the loop, you're close enough that MFT doesn't get value. This isn't Sprint Burst.
Huntress forces you to drop the pallet, hits you with the hatchet. Only screwed by tall loops and would be screwed all the same due to requiring bloodlust just to catch a survivor at a loop. Not screwed by MFT any more than she's screwed by being a 110 killer. Also has an add-on that causes Exhaustion.
Deathslinger has the same problem as Huntress. Screwed by tall loops, but screwed all the same without MFT in play.
Oni also isn't screwed by MFT. Oni's Demon Dash is faster than the survivors. Same deal as Billy. I've played against some really good Oni players who understand how to curve to get even seemingly impossible downs.
Wesker's Dash Hitbox is very forgiving, and being fully infected afflicts you with hindered. Not screwed by MFT.
I don't think I need to explain how Blight's lethal rush works, and how Blight is the least impacted by MFT, second only to Nurse in that regard.
Spirit - If you're playing her like an M1 Killer, that's on you. Her phase walk allows her to move at 176% movement speed. You aren't escaping Spirit with MFT unless you're at an extremely safe loop, at which point she'd be screwed all the same. Not screwed by MFT.
Knight only has to sandwich the survivor between himself and his guard or put them in the same position as Dredge in order to secure the down. Not screwed by MFT. Also has an exhaustion add-on.
Skull Merchant doesn't even need to play the game. Set up a three gen from the start of the match and watch the survivors get bored after 10 minutes and voluntarily let themselves get killed. Chase-wise, Skull Merchant's haste from her drones makes it so you may as well not be running MFT, ontop of the drones exposing survivors who linger in their zone for too long. Not screwed by MFT. Also has an exhaustion add-on.
Singularity's teleport invalidates pallets when timed correctly, resulting in an insta-break. Soma Family Photo haste gives Singularity the advantage over MFT, especially when paired with Kid's Ball Glove to mitigate the duration penalty.
Artist - Anti-loop forces survivors to leave the loop. Also has an add-on that causes exhaustion. Not screwed by MFT.
Cenobite - Survivors have to break three chains to get away and are forced to slow vault while still chained. Three chains brings them down to 1.13m/s, and even a single chain brings them down to 2.26m/s. That's almost a 50% movement speed reduction with just one chain. Definitely not screwed by MFT.
Legion doesn't care about MFT. Legion only has to get 4 Feral Frenzy hits and then the fifth hit downs the survivor regardless of their deep wound state.
Pyramid Head's ranged attack invalidates pallets. You throw the pallet, you get hit. You greed the loop, you get hit. No more disadvantaged by MFT than he would be if the perk didn't exist.
Trickster has enough knives to spam that it doesn't matter if you dodge a few. Trickster simply doesn't care about MFT, and isn't as affected by it as you think.
Twins - Victor moves at 6.0m/s. A survivor with MFT doesn't have enough momentum to dodge Victor like it's the NFL. It's entirely a skill issue if you miss your pounce.
Wraith has an extended lunge upon uncloaking, moves at 150% speed while cloaked, and can body block survivors while cloaked. Not screwed by MFT.
Demo's Shred works in a similar fashion to Wesker's Dash, albeit far more restrictive. Pretty easy to hit survivors as they approach a loop, pallet or vault.
But sure, bud, the majority of killers are screwed by MFT and are forced to sulk in the corner and do nothing. I'll defend MFT until someone comes up with an argument that isn't just "Won't someone please think of the poor M1 killers?"
The perk currently does a little too much, but instead of nerfing it into oblivion and paving the way for the inevitable return of exhaustion perks, I suggest that every killer receive an add-on that causes exhaustion on a successful basic attack. A strong perk remains strong, and the "Poor M1 Killers" get a counter to MFT, Exhaustion Perks, Iron Will, Head On and any other perks that cannot be used while Exhausted.
With the amount of perks currently in the game, it's only going to be harder to come up with perks that are strong, useful or worth running. Taking the nerf bat to things is the simple approach, but it's not always the best approach. I don't particularly desire to see another meta shake-up.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527181#Comment_3527181
Trapper - Fundamentally an M1 killer, no anti-loop, screwed over by MFT.
Wraith - Again, M1 killer, no anti-loop screwed over by MFT
Billy - Pseudo M1 killer since the power at loops is essentially worthless, screwed over by MFT.
Nurse - Teleport power can mitigate MFT.
Shape - M1 killer, screwed by MFT.
Hag - Pseudo M1 , 110% *very screwed by MFT*
Doctor - M1, screwed by MFT.
Huntress - 110 killer, While straight line chasing is not impacted by MFT, tall loops render huntress an M1 killer, and therefore she gets screwed over by MFT.
Bubba - Pseudo M1 , no anti-loop , screwed by MFT.
Freddy - M1 killer, weak anti-loop, screwed by MFT.
Pig - M1 killer screwed by MFT.
Clown - M1 killer, weak anti loop, screwed by MFT.
Spirit - 110 killer, Pseudo M1 , screwed my MFT.
Legion - M1 killer, screwed by MFT.
Plague - M1 killer for 99% of the game, screwed by MFT.
Ghostie - M1 killer, screwed by MFT.
Demo - Pseudo M1 , not as impacted in long loops / straight lines, but still screwed by MFT in normal tiles.
Oni - Simple M1 killer for over half the match, power still gets soft countered by MFT, killer is screwed by MFT.
Slinger - 110 killer , completely screwed in normal tiles by MFT, not impacted in straight line.
Pyramid - M1 at his core, M2's are easier to dodge when you move faster, screwed by MFT.
Blight - Rush power can mitigate MFT, mft still allows for easier dodging.
Twins - M1 at its core , Victor is easier to dodge when you move faster, screwed by MFT.
Trickster - Same as huntress and Slinger, screwed by MFT.
Nemesis - M1 at his core, power requires 3 hits to down, power a while back got buffed so the speed nemi moved was 100% while he has his whip out. MFT sends him to the pre-buff state, screwed by MFT.
Cenobite - At his core, still an M1 killer , screwed by MFT.
Artist - Power mitigates MFT , still easier to dodge crows with MFT.
Sadako - M1 killer, screwed by MFT.
Dredge - M1 killer, even with the remnant "anti loop" survivors can just hold W to the next loop and render it useless, screwed by MFT.
Wesker - Dash power mitigates MFT, MFT still allows for easier dodges since you move faster.
Knight - Core M1 , companions move at 102.5% (4.1m) MFT hard counters the power, screwed by MFT.
SM - At its core , an M1 killer but the passive haste from drones mitigates MFT , still somewhat screwed by MFT.
Singu - Core M1 , MFT renders the Purple Soma family addon (5% haste while overclocked but -20% duration) completely useless and a waste of an addon slot - screwed over by MFT.
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I consider "Pseudo M1s" killers that while having damaging M2's they still have to play loops the same way a regular M1 does. Bubba is a fine example
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Now percentages
Out of 32 killers 28 get screwed over hard by MFT. (87.5%)
Out of the remaining 4 killers, 3 are able to mitigate MFT, even though they still get minimally impacted by it. Namely Blight, Artist and wesker. (9.3%)
The only one that didn't feel MFT in any meaningful way is nurse... because she fundamentally breaks the game's mechanics to begin with. (3.125%)
How do you still stand here defending MFT when it completely screws over 90% of the killer roster with a straight face is beyond me.
It doesn't screw over 90% of the roster. Your arguments don't even factor in individual player skill, nor do they account for how each killer plays. I'm not going to rattle off how most of your list is just wrong.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527096#Comment_3527096
Well, if you need 50 escapes as a survivor to get there…you need to play max. a couple of hundred hours and you’re set. That also explains why in my games I see anything from people with a couple of hundred hours to 10K under their belt.
It's not quite that straightforward. Were it truly the case that the majority of players are at high mmr, the escape rate would be much higher.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527195#Comment_3527195
And it's a punishment for killers because their only choices are to accept that they have to play against team coordination if the survivors choose to play together, or they have to play the survivor role (or another game entirely).
You can't even point to a single shred of evidence that suggests killers are being punished. Your whole argument is just one big complaint about SWF being able to coordinate.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is intended and expected that survivors will play with their friends, and it is intended and expected that they will coordinate. That isn't a punishment for the killer. That's just how the game's designed. You aren't being forced to play the game. You could just move on to another game. But I assure you that even in other games, people play with their friends and coordinate. Overwatch has it. League has it. Apex has it. Valorant has it. Call of Duty has it. Texas Chainsaw has it.
You'd be hard pressed to find a multiplayer pvp game that doesn't allow players to play with their friends and coordinate.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526997#Comment_3526997
I'm not talking about "mains." I'm talking about every match of DbD needs 4 survivors and 1 killer.
I would argue less than 20% since the survivor queues times are longer on average.
But it's fine if the killer role is miserable. The game needs 4 survivors for every killer. Matchmaking wouldn't work if the game were equally fun for both roles and the split was 50/50.
Exactly what constitutes "fun" for killers? From what I've seen, it isn't fun unless you ("You" used in the general sense, not you specifically) win every match. Flashlights are unfun. Toolboxes are unfun. Medkits are unfun. Looping is unfun. Pallets are unfun. Vaults are unfun. Perks are unfun. Swf is unfun.
The game could be equally fun for both roles if both roles could focus more on just playing the game instead of expecting to win every match. I play for fun, and for me that means I get to do a little bit of everything and if I die then so be it. I'm significantly less happy if all I've done is touch a gen for a second, and then be chased for an eternity and subsequently camped to death. I derive zero enjoyment from seeing other people get to play while I sit there and watch a meter drain.
If all people want is to win, then they're just setting themselves up for disappointment.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527126#Comment_3527126
Are you trying to gaslight me? You know I've played the game as the killer role, right?
Maybe you're trying to say that the difficulty versing SWF is the norm/standard, and that versing SoloQ is just an easy reward/break from the norm? If you're trying to say that there is no discernible difference between SWF and Solo, that's... a reach.
Gaslight you? Hardly. You insist that killers are punished due to the nature of how swfs can coordinate. I said nothing on the difficulty of versing swfs instead of solos.
What I did say is that SWF is an intended part of the game. Versing Solo Q isn't a reward or a break from the norm, nor is versing SWF a punishment for playing killer. Both are merely a natural part of the game.
The killer isn't being forced to play with one hand tied behind their back, nor are they being forced to play like it's a world championship and there's a prize on the line for the winner.
Placing limitations on survivors who play with friends, on the other hand, is punishing them for playing with their friends. It's a punishment because their only choices are to accept that they have to play with restrictions if they want to play together, or they have to play solo queue.
In exchange, the killer gets to have all the tools at their disposal and is not limited nor restricted. That hardly sounds fair.
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@Chewy102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527020#Comment_3527020
Not in any order.
Trapper. Bear traps are, iffy, at best. Leaving Trapper as a Killer who has to depend on M1 attacks the vast majority of the time.
Hillbilly. Billy-boy should be a decent Killer as he can travel quick but it takes skill to learn how to curve. Problem is not a lot of maps allow for curving or long sprints. So he has to fall back on M1s.
Doctor. Doc is just a M1 Killer. Not much else to say and his shocks don't really last that long and aren't that easy to time. MFT screws with those shocks that much more.
Shape. Another M1 Killer. Stalking people takes time and you can realistically only have so many EW3 hits. And even in EW3 he's just a M1 Killer with a slightly longer lunge.
Hag. Same problem as Trapper, Hag has to set up traps and it's simply not worth chasing people outside of where your traps are. Hag being a 110% Killer makes MFT that much worse though.
Nightmare. M1 Killer (seeing a pattern?). His dream snares aren't bad, but they don't work unless a Survivor is sleeping. Who takes time, or only after landing a hit. Dream pallets? Yeah...
Pig. M1 Killer. Her stealth takes time and gives a large warning, plus it isn't really useful to end chases outside of 50/50s. Her RBTs are her best feature, but they only work after spending time to chase/down Survivors.
Legion. It's not good. Legions whole skit is to wound Survivors easily. But needs to chase to finish the job. If Survivors want to be wounded?
Demogorgon. Shred can already be baited or dodged normally leaving Demo with falling back on M1 attacks.
Twins. It's Twins. Enough said.
Nemesis. This guy already has to land 3 hits to down with his power. That's bad enough, making that 3rd hit take that much longer or depending on M1s more is just an insult.
Onryo. Good mindgame potential, for a M1 Killer.
Dredge. M1 Killer that can sometimes trap Survivors in a bad spot.
Knight. The guards become a joke with MFT. Leaving him with just M1s or some how sandwiching Survivors between himself and a guard.
Singularity. He's already has a rather high skill floor in order to use his power and dealing with EMPs. Leaving M1s as the bulk of his playstyle.
Xenomorph. Xeno is "better" than Nemesis in some regards. But that doesn't save Xeno from having standard chases.
So yeah. At least half of the Killers are heavily impacted by MFT as they depend on the fundamentals of DbD in going for M1s by having situational powers. The other half have "decent" means around MFT as their powers are more dependable. If the Killer player is skilled enough to use them that is and even they MFT will still give a noticeable effect.
Billy isn't really affected by MFT. I've played against really good Billy players who can curve at a 90 degree angle to get the down.
Legion was reworked to where getting a fifth feral frenzy hit downs the survivor. You ideally want to chain your feral frenzy hits to get that fifth hit, and yes it applies through the deep wound effect. Legion, much like Wraith, is less affected by MFT due to Feral Frenzy allowing Legion to bodyblock survivors.
Dredge stands no chance in a straight line, but at a loop? Dredge wins regardless of MFT. Don't forget that Dredge's remnant provides him with anti-loop.
Freddy has snares that provide the same amount of hindered as clown's bottles. Yes, survivors have to be in the dream state but the activation requirement for MFT is that survivors have to be injured.
Knight and Singularity I have no real opinion on as I don't see them often enough to make an accurate assessment.
Twins aren't really affected with Victor being significantly faster and Charlotte basically being an M1 killer. The few Twins players I do see get their downs with Victor.
MFT only really shines at loops, and Demo's Shred means Survivors probably aren't going to make that vault or pallet in time.
So, it's not quite half the killer roster affected by MFT.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526567#Comment_3526567
You cannot punish the killer by pitting them against players who can very easily coordinate by simply playing with their friends.
I mean, the devs can, I guess, and that's why things are the way they are...
Oh well. Killers only make up 20% of the game's population anyway.
The killer isn't being punished. There are no limitations being placed on them. Show me evidence that they are being punished. You can't point to SWF as that is an intended and expected part of the game. External comms are also an intended and expected part of the game. You getting outplayed is not a punishment.
If you place limitations or restrictions on friends who play together, you are punishing them for playing together. Killers are not being punished by the existence of SWF.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526857#Comment_3526857
Most players are in “high MMR” with a low soft cap
Where exactly did you get that from? Last time BHVR gave us statistics on that, there was barely anyone in high MMR.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526672#Comment_3526672
I am not painting them as all being evil or bully squads. But most premades I meet play hyperefficient. If premades play “casually” they should not mind using off meta perks. The only people who are “hurt” by not being able to perk share are people who use meta perks.
Your suggestion is based off your own subjective experience then, rather than concrete evidence. When you are at high MMR, survivors play hyper efficient. The only way to win at that point is to also play hyper efficient.
Premades do play casually, but you aren't going to find them at high mmr. Your suggestion does nothing to reduce the hyper efficiency of the premades you play against, and only harms premades at low to mid mmr. A duo, for instance, would be limited to only one instance of Off The Record, or Botany Knowledge, or Self Care.
I would have no issues were toolboxes and flashlights limited to one instance per lobby. This wouldn't really bother survivors below high mmr, but would make it that much harder for high mmr premades to genrush.
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@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526629#Comment_3526629
The "Seeing swf in lobby would kill DbD because everyone will dodge" is a blatant lie that im surprised people are still using, as other games are here that let you know if you are against a premade group of teams and they are still healthy.
Swap those numbers you have and they are probably much more close to the truth. Out of 100 killers, 93 of them would probably chose to play the game and 7 would dodge. That would be closer to reality.
I didn't say it would kill the game, but you must be new here if you think that most killers would prefer to play against swfs instead of solos. Given the choice, they'd pick uncoordinated solos over coordinated premades.
I'd be fine with killers getting to see who's in a swf in the lobby so long as they couldn't just choose to dodge in favor of what they perceive to be an easier match.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526630#Comment_3526630
The following only applies on the assumption that BHVR wants to make DBD a competitive game.
My intention is not to penalize friends together but to eliminate the concept of SWF on comms and Solo Queue entirely. If in game VC was implemented, there wouldn’t be a need to balance the game for swf and solo queue, just Survivor with the assumption that people are using the VC.
That way devs just have to balance for Killer vs Survivor with comms. If players choose not to use the in game VC, that is their decision just like choosing to play Killer without perks or add ons. If the Killer player plays under the assumption that every match will have some level of coordination due to ingame VC, devs could buff or nerf Survivor as a whole depending on the Kill rate rather than worry about Solo Queue becoming too weak if Survivor gets a heavy nerf or SWF becoming too strong because of a buff.
Solo Queue isn't bad because of a lack of communication. Players who don't want to cooperate can't be forced to cooperate. The strength of SWF is not communication, it's reliable teammates.
Voice Chat doesn't bridge the gap between solos and swfs. All it does is create the same divide we already have but between those with comms and those without. Not everyone wants to mic up with randoms.
The gap between swfs and solos specifically refers to the ability to make decisions based on what information you have available. In a swf, you know if your friend is being camped. A solo doesn't know that and might go for the rescue. This is why people want things like basekit kindred. It does nothing to strengthen swf, only hurts one specific playstyle, and is beneficial to solo queue.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526554#Comment_3526554
I said it before somewhere else. I believe the team should detect premades and they should not be able to share perks. It would not hurt premades just goofing around because they could care less about having 3 adrenalines. It would nerf the amount of meta perks premades have to play with.
You really have no idea how bad that idea is. You're painting all swfs as these evil meta-slave 4-man bully squads whose sole purpose is to make the killer miserable.
The reality is most swfs are just people enjoying a game with their friend/s. Even amongst casual players, there'll be a degree of overlap in perks. Not all perks are equal.
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@appleas said:
This could be resolved by adding in game voice comms and balancing the game as Survivor vs Killer instead of Swf, Killer and Solo Queue IF the devs decide to go in the direction of DBD being a competitive game.
However if they still want to maintain the All in One queue mindset, then SWF and Solo Queue disparity will never be resolved. You cannot balance all 3 sides when one side cannot be nerfed because the reason “You can’t punish people for playing with friends” gets quoted every time someone talks about nerfing SWF.
The reason "You can't punish people for playing with friends" gets quoted every time someone talks about nerfing swf is because it's true. You want to penalize people for using an intended feature.
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@pandorayr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526587#Comment_3526587
Dodging is fine and choose with who I want to play.
Main killer skull merchant chess (no chase) around 8,500hrs 99% kill rate games, in my streamings I won almost all my games thanks to my skill and intelligence.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AKV8X25M53VF/7a5f2ce86b37a619b611e6f81cdcca65.jpg
By the way the MMR doesn't work or it's a joke bruh
Dodging isn't fine. Let's say killers can choose to see who's in a SWF. Now let's say out of 100 killers, 93 of those choose to dodge. That leaves 7 killers for 372 Players. This increases queue times exponentially for SWFs who then move on to other games. This then increases queue times for everyone, and anyone who doesn't want to wait quits which then leaves the game with a significantly lower player count.
I'd be fine with letting killers see who's in a SWF so long as killers can't choose to lobby dodge, and force-closing the application results in a 24 hour matchmaking ban. But you'd never go for that.
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@WilliamSN said:
Nah man, nerfs based solely on playing with friends is quite frankly dumb.
A more fair approach would be to let killers know if they are up against a SWF or not so they can make the conscious decision of accepting a more "competitive" match or wait a bit longer for a casual match.
The concept of SWF is fine, what isn't fine is the killer being forced to take on a bully squad or a speedrun match.
That's lobby dodging, which is a whole other can of worms. While all Bully Squads are SWFs, not all SWFs are bully squads.
@pandorayr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526572#Comment_3526572
Yes, and for me playing 100% of the matchs in iridescent/swf ranks is not fun either.
You're not though. The game uses MMR to determine who you get matched with, but it still tries to prioritise fast matchmaking. It would take an eternity to provide every player with the perfect match.
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@pandorayr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526558#Comment_3526558
However ur answer ignores completely SWF issue, u solution is keep enjoying yourself and keep games a miserable experience on the other side.
Killers aren't having a miserable experience solely because of SWF, and it's disingeneous to imply that they are.
You want to punish people for playing with their friends, despite the fact that the majority of SWFs are duos. Duos and Solos account for the vast majority of survivor players, with 3-mans and 4-mans making up the minority.
You cannot punish people for playing with their friends. It is fundamentally unfair.
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@pandorayr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526552#Comment_3526552
I assume u think SWF is balanced. 🤣
SWF is balanced, objectively speaking. A good team of solos will destroy you just as easily as a good 4-man. Part of why solo queue is bad is because of bad teammates.
@pandorayr said:
Extra % penalty to survivors for cooperative actions:
Repair, sabotage, healing, etc.
Playing with friends is very fun to survivors but stressful for the killers, the excess information counterplay the power of some killers, maybe a extra additional penalty helps to gain time.
(penalty only affects players swf)
Show SWF on the lobby. (optional)
I think the killer deserve to know how many players playing together for design strategies. (In the game The Texas Chainsaw Massacre the killer can know which players playing together and I not read any complain.)
These solutions to make the game more balanced without handicap for soloQ.
You can't punish people for playing with their friends. Showing killers who's in a SWF and who's solo would result in excessive lobby dodging, which leads to unbalanced matches, which leads to queue times increasing exponentially, which then leads to swfs quitting, which then leads to longer queue times for killers because not enough survivors.
Texas Chainsaw's number one issue right now is lobby dodging.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526451#Comment_3526451
The game is already competitive. The game should be “fair” by default for those that play the game semi-competitive (which is the majority). Hence the change to core mechanics so everyone gets enough playing time per match with still a decent outcome for both sides depending on how well you’ve played.
People that want to goof around still can. Making the game fairer doesn’t hinder that.
Dead by Daylight, and by extension Texas Chain Saw, are party games. They're meant to be played casually. Yes, anything that's PvP is technically competitive but it's not competitive in the same way Overwatch is. It's more akin to how Mario Party is competitive.
In your original post, you specifically mentioned "Overpowered Premades", how would you go about making them fairer in a way that doesn't punish people for playing with their friends? Think carefully about your answer, because not all SWFs are 4-man bully squads. The majority of SWFs are duos.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526362#Comment_3526362
It's more fair than "punish killers because people want to play with their friends"
Killers aren't being punished though. There are no limitations placed on killers. Placing limitations on all SWFs is punishing people for playing with their friends, which most certainly isn't fair.
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@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525472#Comment_3525472
Yeah, because SWFs are miserable to play against and yet BHVR refuses to balance survivors around SWFs and SWF mains insist that survivors should be balanced around solo queue, not SWF despite SWFs being game breaking.
SWFs aren't game-breaking. You're exaggerating.
@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525672#Comment_3525672
There is no alternative really. Any other way of nerfing premades will also hurt solo players, who are anything but overpowered. The developers have their heads stuck in the sand. They might want to stick to “their philosophy” but meanwhile (at high MMR) almost every game is against a “sweaty” premade and the game is bleeding killers. Not many want to play that role anymore. The game needs to be healthy to prosper and overpowered premades are not part of that package. The same way other changes have made it to the game as well, even though they once believed they were fine.
The game simply isn't balanced for or around high MMR, and never will be. The suggestion for killers to see which players are SWFs in the lobby would result in the vast majority of killer players dodging SWF lobbies. This would exponentially increase queue times for SWFs, make Solos even more miserable, and also exponentially increase queue times for killers because of a lack of survivor players.
This is as bad a suggestion as the separate game mode, to which someone tried to suggest that the devs should just make it so killers will want to play against swfs (The only way of doing so being to punish people for playing with their friends)
@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525570#Comment_3525570
Right….
- communication; strategy regarding plays and gens; calling out where the killer is
- knowing each other’s perks
- perk stacking
yup, just communication…
and what the devs can do about it? Here’s a simple example: people who are in the same party cannot use the same perks and items. Prevents swfs from bringing multiple adrenalines, mft + hope, unbreakables, 4 toolboxes and so on
So, punish people for playing with their friends. The last time we had a breakdown of the survivor role, the statistics showed that the majority were solo queue with duos not far behind. 3-mans were far less common than duos, and 4-mans were extremely rare.
Like it or not, Dead by Daylight is a party game and people are going to want to play with their friends.