Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514526#Comment_3514526
Balancing around the low mmr players while neglecting the ramifications it has on the high mmr players is a fundamentally flawed argument.
If a perk is is "strong" to the point where it makes lil timmy with 10 hours on survivor able to last an extra minute in chase, you can imagine how ridiculously busted it is on a survivor with 5k hours, has all tiles memorized and can optimize and juice every loop.
In low mmr a 1 minute extension = half a gen done
In high mmr 1 minute means 3 gens popped and another halfway.
A perk that is balanced in a max mmr lobby will by default be balanced in low-mid mmr.
The perk does nothing for little timmy who can't loop the killer because they don't fundamentally understand how looping works. To be fair, little timmy with 10 hours is still learning how the game works.
A more apt comparison would be between a competent survivor of average skill who can already run the killer for multiple gens vs a top-tier survivor like Hens.
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@Snowball777 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514544#Comment_3514544
The Haste itself is literally the issue...
It's literally fine. The list of killers adversely affected by it is very short.
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@thisislastyearsmodel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511780#Comment_3511780
Actually, I'm moaning because fast vaulting grants invincibility now.
I've missed hits on survivors vaulting while they're still on my side of the window. My weapon literally goes through them, and then they make even more distance than normal because I'm recovering from my somehow missed hit before I can vault/walk out of the tile.
I've seen that in two instances so far. One where the survivor was running resilience and one where they weren't but the hit didn't connect. It was really weird to see it.
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@Snowball777 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514488#Comment_3514488
You do not play against good Survivors and it shows. That is all I am going to say to you, you do not know what you are talking about.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514472#Comment_3514472
A 20% speed boost to Survivors is not fair in any capacity and it is better than any exhaustion perk.
20% longer chases is another pallet or another window, it literally breaks the game against weaker Killers and makes the game not worth playing unless you play Nurse or Blight.
I really like 20hr players coming in here and pretending they know what they are talking about when it is obvious they have not played an M1 Killer against these perks against good players who use things like Windows of Opportunity or communicate in a SWF.
It's not a 20% speed boost. That's factually wrong. Haste is a speed boost. Survivors are gaining 20% more distance with MFT than without, which is not equal to a 20% speed boost.
I've got around 1400 hours on dbd, and I agree with Otz's assessment that the perk is strong and does too much, but the haste by itself is fine.
Maybe instead of assuming the amount of hours a player has, you should focus on getting better as killer?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514215#Comment_3514215
You're the only one in the thread asserting that a build is needed as far as I read. OP's post also doesn't list that a build is needed.
If you have the dictionary definition somewhere I would like to see it, but afaik there isn't one.
I disagree and think you're the one in the wrong.
At this point we're just not going to agree, I think you have a fundamental misunderstand and you likewise with me. The conversations not going to go anywhere imo.
There is no universally accepted definition of tunneling, camping, or gen rushing. It means something different to everyone. The reason we've had so many definitions is primarily because of salt.
A killer loses a game because they spent 5 minutes chasing one survivor, so they lash out and call the survivors genrushers. A survivor deliberately provokes the killer and repeatedly body blocks using BT after being unhooked, so they lash out in the endgame chat and call the killer a tunneler. Before we got basekit BT and even before BT, survivors would go for unsafe rescues and then blame the killer for not letting them go. There is a history of people blaming their mistakes on others.
The game has evolved so much since then, and with it, our idea of what these strategies actually are. Gen Rush used to refer to bringing a BNP in to instantly complete a generator, and it was gen rushing since the entire team could do it and have all gens completed before the killer could even do anything. The match would be over in 2 minutes.
After BNP got nerfed to instantly consume the toolbox and all its charges for a total of 25% repair progression, the only way to actually gen rush was to use builds that increased the speed at which you could repair generators. This required commodius toolboxes with BNP and Prove Thyself with survivors doubling up on gens. Particularly confident survivors would run No Mither with Resilience for even more repair speed.
Genrushing could also mean prioritizing generators over rescuing a hooked survivor who isn't being camped, but with the changes to hatch and keys, doing that is detrimental rather than beneficial. Most of the old strategies surrounding gen rushing related to how stacked the game was in the survivor's favor. Hatch used to spawn invisible at the start of the match, and survivors could locate it by being observant. They used to be able to use a key to escape early provided enough gens were done.
Genrushing could also refer to what you've said, which is doing generators instead of totems and chests. The only reason to do totems if the killer wasn't running a Hex was to rule out NOED, but aside from that and extra bloodpoints, survivors never really had any incentive to do totems. They don't progress the objective, after all. It was a poorly thought-out secondary objective that relied entirely on survivors willingness to do something entirely optional that provides them with zero benefit.
The only reason to open chests was to try to obtain a key, assuming you didn't bring one, which most did not due to the stigma surrounding keys. Killers would tunnel out the person with the key.
OP's post is contradictory in that they say that it isn't genrushing if the killer loses 3 gens in two minutes, but it is genrushing if survivors don't do "other objectives". By that logic, the killer should never lose 3 gens in two minutes because the survivors should be wasting their time doing totems.
If something isn't beneficial, however, it is a waste of time and every second counts in Dead by Daylight. The killer isn't going to go easy just because people are goofing around. They're just going to consider that an easy win.
It used to be considered camping patroling the hook because somebody's waiting nearby to go for the rescue. It also used to be considered camping if the killer lingered by the hook for more than a second.
It used to be considered tunneling if the killer committed to a chase instead of playing a hit and run playstyle. It used to be considered tunneling if the killer chased you for too long. It used to be considered tunneling if you got hit with old DS.
There have been many definitions, and each one has had its fair share of people who say it's something different while also having it's fair share of people who agree with the definition.
The community will never be able to agree on a single definition. Threads like this one only add to the confusion. Just use common sense. If you've hooked one survivor twice before you've hooked anyone else, and the only thing they did was exist, you tunneled them. If you've hooked Steve, then Bill, then Steve again, that isn't tunneling. It also isn't tunneling if Steve used his BT to take a hit for his rescuer.
If you lost two or more gens in the first 40 seconds of the match, that's a genrush. If you lose two gens after 60 seconds, that's a 2-1 split which isn't a gen rush. If it takes 52.98 seconds to complete a gen with two people, and it takes 90 seconds to complete a generator solo, that's one and a half gens done in 53 seconds.
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@FreddyVoorhees said:
This is what they should make it :
Start the trial with 3 tokens.
Once in chase with the killer the perk activates for 30 seconds.
Consumes a token.
After that is on cooldown for 60 seconds.
Once all 3 tokens are consumed , the perk deactivates for the remainder of the trial.
No. That would effectively kill the perk and nobody would use it. If your basis for dumpstering a perk is that you don't like it, the problem is you.
@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511050#Comment_3511050
yeah. but mindbreaker makes it easier.
does anyone actually run it?
Yes, actually. I see it fairly frequently.
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Wait, did they revert the bugfix for vaults?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513807#Comment_3513807
No you don't need a build to genrush the same way you don't need a build to tunnel.
It doesn't matter whether the survivors believe totems and chest and w.e. are worth their time or not, the fact of the matter is they're still ignoring them in favor of gens.
The killer doesn't feel like it's worth their time to delay their kill to go chase someone else or kick a gen or w.e.
Does that make it not tunneling? No, they're still doing it regardless.
I didn't miss anything, that part is irrelevant. Its not about pressure its about the players doing its decision to do so. The killer camping or not doesn't change that the survivors are deciding to focus the gens. It might personally push you into deciding to do it, but you're still doing it.
Of course multiple survivors working on the same gen isn't genrushing, as I said earlier I specified splitting up is. Working on the same gen slows you down, actively detrimental. At least until the end where there's only 1-2 gens left to do.
I think you don't know what you're talking about. Cool now that's canceled out and we can drop ad hominem arguments ty.
You do need a build to genrush. Tunneling doesn't require a build because you're targeting the survivor who's just been unhooked with the intention of removing them from the match.
Survivors ignoring totems and chests because they don't progress their objective is not genrushing. Genrushing is doing generators as fast as possible, which you cannot do without a build. Splitting up on gens is not genrushing. You are not supposed to be able to defend all seven generators for the entire game.
The killer may not feel like it's worth their time to go chase someone else, but the fact of the matter is that if the killer is tunneling, the person being tunneled barely gets to play the game while the other three survivors don't really get to interact with the killer.
If the killer never pressured the other three survivors and got ran for 5 gens, they didn't lose because they got genrushed; they lost because they failed to prevent the survivors from completing their objective.
The survivors objective is to power the exit gates by repairing the generators. Their win condition is escaping.
The killer's objective is to prevent the survivors from completing their objective. Their win condition is to kill all four survivors by any means.
Killers complain that gens go too fast, but how can they be when solos are running perks like Plunderers, Ace in the Hole, Empathy and Bond? The reality is that killers will often ignore their surroundings just to get that one down.
There is no stigma behind trying to win. The stigma behind tunneling and genrushing is because it sucks the fun out of the game for one side. You aren't simply trying to win at that point, because tunneling and genrushing aren't necessary. At that point, you're trying to win as quickly as possible.
A killer doesn't need a build to tunnel because they only need to hook the same survivor three times. Survivors need a build to genrush because it takes 90 seconds to repair a generator solo, 53 seconds for two people, 42 seconds for three, and 40 seconds for four.
Those numbers change depending on the killer's perks, and if the survivors brought toolboxes and perks like hyperfocus. A genrush build could see survivors complete gens solo in 51 seconds or less.
You are blatantly wrong about what genrushing is, and your whole argument is that it's the natural state of survivor when it isn't. Nobody's out here demanding the killer injure all four survivors before committing to a chase. So why should survivors do totems and chests for it to not be genrushing? Spreading your hooks out is not even close to being equal to survivors doing totems and chests.
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Petition to rename it to Garden of Pain. I made a twitch streamer very upset when I kept hitting them with pallets after I forgot to take my offering off for Garden of Pain.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513700#Comment_3513700
Why not?
You're rushing the gens. By necessity that means you have to be doing them.
There's a difference between focusing majorly on gens and not. i.e. totems, chest, goofing around, helpign others in chase
But most players don't care about those things so they just end up genrushing.
Genrush is the natural state of survivor in the game currently and has been for a long time.
Is that wrong? No. Is it a problem? Depends on what you mean. Problem that they're doing it? No they're just trying to win. Problem balance wise? Imo Yes. Problem for the killers "fun"? Yes.
Genrush is not the natural state of survivor. You're suggesting that doing gens is genrushing. Survivors don't have any need to open chests. There's no point in wasting time on totems if the killer has a hex. Helping someone in chase just means the killer is pressuring two survivors instead of one. Why should survivors goof around for any significant length of time unless they're throwing?
Maybe you missed the part where the killer needs to pressure multiple survivors to get them to slow down on gens. A killer who camps, for example, isn't getting genrushed. He's only pressuring one survivor. What are the other three supposed to do? Politely wait their turn?
You can't "rush" generators if you don't have perks and items to increase repair speed. Multiple survivors working on the same gen isn't genrushing.
I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about, and you're just trying to blur the definition of genrushing.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513437#Comment_3513437
So, when one survivor is getting chased, what do you propose the other 3 survivors do?
do gen of course. gen-rushing is just naturally part of survivor gameplay. I think you can honestly do all 5 gens in 5-6 minutes depending on the map type/map size without any items. the perks boost speed have nothing to do with that. they exaggerate it. the reason why killer dislike those perks is because those perks promote gen-rushing.... i mean it makes sense. you are equipping a perk to be glued to gens.. because you gain benefit for being glued to gens. your tunneling the objective.
I think main benefits of tunneling is the shortcut to the killer objective. for example, if every chase is 45 second long, anyone can do math behind 7x45 and 12x45. that is why killer tunnel because the second way is unrewarding. tunneling off hook is one of main ways to tunnel as killer but tunneling as a whole is ignoring X survivors and focusing Y survivors. certain killers have incredible chases and can chase survivor anywhere on the map so they might use tunneling as form of gen defence.
What you're saying is that just doing gens is genrushing, which makes no sense.
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@DredgeyEdgey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513429#Comment_3513429
Again in ots post you can know when they have it and decide if you want to chase them still
I agree with Otz's assessment of the perk, I disagree with the sentiment that even just the 3% haste by itself is unhealthy for the game.
@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513513#Comment_3513513
Tho it is true those killers suffer from outdated designs, MfT is not affecting that all that much. What it is affecting is timing and feeling you learn as a killer to get hits. Otz talked about this in his video where MFT affects the timing that a lot of killer mains have learned over hours of playing and it also affects new players' able to learn these timings also. My main issue right now with MfT and other haste perks on both sides are we getting to the point we getting too many ways to affect the basic movement speed of both killers and survivors. Imo the movement speeds should stay mostly the same thought out the game since its plays a BIG part in chases.
The thing about exhaustion perks btw is you usually only get to use them once in each chase you have and as a killer, you can tell what exhaustion perk a survivor has but MFT is always working and you never know it's in play until the end of the game. This is why I agree with Otz's suggestion of letting the killer know when MfT procs so the killer then can make an informed decision. Right now you cant make an informed decision against MfT since you have no clue it's there or not.
I agree with Otz's asssessment of the perk and his proposed solutions. I think it's important that survivors have alternatives to exhaustion perks that aren't single-use one and done type perks.
Without the endurance, MFT is only good because of the unlimited 3% haste while injured.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513481#Comment_3513481
Well you´re not supposed to do all 5 totems alone. There are 3 other survivors that could totemhunt. IF there was an actual incentive to do them. Which we simply haven´t got. As totem perks are kinda weak and it shows. No one does bones. Everyone does gens only.
Which is why survivors need an actual secondary objective that ties into doing generators.
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@TheWarNung said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513429#Comment_3513429
What M1 killers are disproportionately affected by MFT? A lot.
My main shout-out would be to the Doctor, mostly because I play him a lot and his ability gets absolutely trashed by MFT. His power is finicky enough that even once you get good at him shocking survivors at pallets requires super-tight timing. Survivors moving 3% faster throws that timing right out the window and makes his ability feel supremely useless.
Other killers who get their timings thrown off by this 3% change? Off the cuff, I can name Wraith, Hag, Nemo, Trickster, Freddy, Clown, and Pig.
That's really the big problem that I have with MFT. Top tier killers like Nurse and Blight don't really care about it. It's only the weaker M1 killers who get disproportionally affected by it. Do we really need a perk that only punishes the weakest killers?
I had a post typed up that broke down each of those killers you listed, but the tab refreshed and I lost the post so you'll just have to settle for this.
Only Nemmy, Pig, Doctor, Hag and Trapper are disproportionately affected by MFT, and they'd be just as adversely affected by exhaustion perks. Pig, Doctor, Hag and Trapper all suffer from outdated designs.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
tunneling is refer to tunnel vision and in dbd's case, it is tunnel visioning hook-states. you can tunnel two people at same time by ignoring two survivors and only chasing other two survivors until they die. it has nothing to do with returning to the hook or anything like that. it is just changing hook objective from 12 hook to 7 hooks. you can hook two survivors for total 6 hooks and hooking 1 survivor for 3 kills.
gen-rushing is being glued to gens. it is having high-up time on gens such as 1 person getting chased and 3 people doing gens. the result of 3 people being glued to gens entire game is very fast games.
camping is staying in spot and defending a particular objective. In dbd case, camping will often show up in form hook camping, gen camping also known as 3 gens and slug camping.
Just last week a Blight commited to chasing one survivor for 4 or more minutes. All 5 generators popped, the Blight DCed, and called us all "dirty genrushers".
Blight is correct. he is saying that you were glued to gens the entire game and he is salty for his loss.
So, when one survivor is getting chased, what do you propose the other 3 survivors do? Doing totems is a waste of time if there's no hex in play. Opening Chests is a waste of time if you already have an item.
Genrushing is specifically when survivors bring perks and items to make generators go faster. It is not having "high uptime on gens" or "being glued to gens".
Tunneling is specifically targeting the recently unhooked survivor to remove them from the game as quickly as possible. It is not tunneling if they bodyblock using their endurance to tank a hit. It is also not tunneling if you hook A then B, then A again.
Camping is staying by the hooked survivor to prevent them from being rescued.
Blight was wrong. He didn't get genrushed. He overcommitted to a chase and failed to pressure the other 3 survivors. It is not genrushing if you don't defend your generators and pressure the survivors.
Chasing a survivor applies pressure to one survivor. Hooking a survivor applies pressure to two survivors, as now one survivor needs to jump off gens to get the unhook and heal. Chase one survivor who's on generators, and that's 3 survivors being pressured.
1 Survivor to a Gen is 90 seconds, 2 is 53 seconds, 3 is 42 seconds, 4 is 40 seconds. That's without perks or toolboxes to increase the charges per second. This is why tunneling is so effective. 1v3 means that, at most, you only have two survivors on a generator.
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@Snowball777 said:
The perk is bad for the game and should not exist, period, end of discussion.
It should at best last maybe 10 seconds after being injured, and that's a gigantic maybe.
Anyone who disagrees does not play a weaker M1 Killer and it shows.
I disagree. I think the perk without endurance and haste stacking is healthy for the game. It's an alternative to exhaustion perks. Friendly reminder that Overcome exists.
What M1 killers are you referring to that are so weak that this perk significantly impacts them?
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Claire is probably the loudest female, while Bill is probably the loudest male.
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Just turn off endgame chat. Why is it even still in the game? All it does is promote toxicity. It literally doesn't exist on console, and most console players I see are actually pretty nice.
Had a rough game as Billy during the Masquerade event where I wanted to get the 4k in one trial challenge done, and two of the survivors even remained to give me free kills and then offered to help me if they get me again.
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Oh please, there's nothing challenging about it.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511380#Comment_3511380
Nobody is "pigeonholing" anyone, its quite a simple premise, if you really do think Slugging camping and tunneling occurs in 100% of the matches, logically you'd bring anti-tunnel/slug/camp perks. Otherwise its safe to assume its just survivors throwing a fit because the killer knows basic math and can count to 10 to punish a basekit BT body block
Demanding the anti-tunnel/slug/camp perks be basekit because survivors want their benefits while also running MFT+Resi builds is a massive reason as to why people consider survivor mains some of the most entitled creatures.
It doesn't occur in 100% of matches, but it does happen often enough that certain perks become mandatory. I think that UB should be basekit, but for the activation condition to require two slugged survivors to be in close proximity to each other. Slugging doesn't happen often enough to run UB, but when it does happen, it's done excessively which only exacerbates how unfun it is to be nearly bled out before the killer finally decides to hook you.
Camping is finally being addressed after years, and rightfully so, because the person sitting on the hook getting hit repeatedly by the killer isn't having fun. They don't feel better because their team made it out due to them being camped. They just lose motivation to play.
Tunneling occurs frequently enough that survivors have to run OTR, but even that isn't enough to deter killers. They tunnel through the endurance anyway, which is why more needs to be done to address it. The solution cannot be to pigeonhole people into specific builds, and then complain that those builds are meta. You reap what you sow. Consequences and all that jazz.
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@Melinko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510781#Comment_3510781
I'm starting to think most people on this forum just want to play against bots. The comments in several threads show a total lack of understanding that there is in fact 4 other people in each match and playing in a scummy way that ruins the fun for others will result in fewer and fewer players.
All games eventually die, but for some reason there is a group of this playerbase that is trying to kill this game as fast as possible with playstyles.
It definitely feels that way. There is a total lack of consideration and empathy, all because of online anonymity. I would much rather sit in queue for an hour to be guaranteed an enjoyable match than be matched with someone who thinks that only their fun matters.
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@Pluto_1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511393#Comment_3511393
"you only need to make sure you aren't making the game unfun for them."
I stopped reading here. No I don't.
You wanted a discussion, but you chose to stop reading the moment you read something you don't like. That tells me you aren't interested in a discussion, and you only want an echo chamber.
If everyone adopts the mindset that they only need to care about their own fun, and nobody else's, they'll quickly find that nobody wants to play with them.
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@Zeidoktor said:
Honest question: How often does the Endurance actually come up in matches? I was always under the impression the constantly active haste was the big issue.
My thoughts on that were:
* you gain 3% Haste for the duration of the chase in which you were injured, at which point the perk deactivates and only becomes active again once you're healed
* Made For This does not stack with other haste granting effects, so any other, stronger haste overrides it. This work since, other then Dark Theory, every other non Exhaustion haste is stronger but with limitations (reach endgame, stay by someone you healed, etc)
I've personally only gotten value from the Endurance less than 5 times out of 50 matches.
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@Pluto_1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511372#Comment_3511372
In my 900 hours as killer I have NEVER seen an instance where a survivor was going out of their way to make sure I have fun. And I'm not talking about farming games (those can be fun too).
What does that even look like? When I'm swinging an ax at your head, how do you communicate to me that you aren't having fun but you want me to have fun too?
You misunderstand. You don't need to make the game fun for them, you only need to make sure you aren't making the game unfun for them.
I don't go out of my way to diminish the killer's experience, and they don't go out of their way to diminish mine. We both play the game normally, and we both try to win. That's the ideal scenario.
What usually happens is I don't go out of my way to diminish the killer's experience, but they go out of their way to diminish my experience because they feel like they need to win 100% of the time.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511309#Comment_3511309
If you remember the DS UB DH BT meta you know why that was heavily disliked.
DH being used for distance and forcing killers to sniff a survivors hair for 10 seconds to try to bait it before actually M1ing. (not to mention being available every time you were injured)
BT much like today, being used offensively to bodyblock the killer with endurance.
If the killer tried punishing the BT bodyblock , the killer had to eat the DS, or concede a Self pickup via UB OR wait a full minute, OR allow another survivor to pick up the bodyblocker.
That meta was filled with Lose-lose / uncounterable situations and that is why people hated it.
And much like survivors keep complaining about "facing the same killer 5 times in a row", you can't even begin to comprehend how frustrating it was to go up against "Meta survivor nº123456789"
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Current day, the same loadout is perfectly fine since you can't pull that crap now.
How are you going to complain about "slugging" then turn around and claim "Unbreakable is so situational you'll only see it complained about in twins games"
What is the logic behind survivors claiming to be "tunneled and camped every game" then turn around and bring Hope+Adren for end game? if you did get "tunneled and camped every game" you'd think to bring perks to help you deal with that and not an endgame build.
Again, adapt and overcome, learn to swap your perks to an anti-tunnel/slug build if you ACTUALLY get tunneled that much.
Oh I fully understand why it was a problem, but at what point do we stop telling people to pigeonhole themselves into builds and then complain when they actually do it?
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@Pluto_1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511338#Comment_3511338
"I think that your goal is to win, by any means necessary, and that you aren't concerned that the other party isn't having fun."
BINGO! We have a winner!
Typically when I play a game it's for my entertainment. I don't know... call me selfish I guess.
Sure, it's selfish, and you aren't obligated to care that the other party isn't having fun, but ponder for a moment, what do you think happens when everyone adopts that mindset? Nobody has fun.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511294#Comment_3511294
yes it is. the objective is to kill the survivors. or rather sacrifice them to the entity. in order to do this they gotta chase and down survivors. if they are fast enough at it, they do not need to even care about the gens.
they are comparable. progressing a gen is like getting the 2 hits on the survivor. you finish a gen and permanently progress in your ultimate goal of excaping. same for getting the 2 hit and getting a hook state on the survivor.
you can delay the other side by regressing the gens or saving your teammate before they are hooked. but that is more about getting in the way of the other side over progressing your objective.
there's a lot a survivor can do to avoid being tunneled. from perks to simple actions like not taking a hit for the person who unhooked you.
and you can certainly stop a killer from tunneling another teammate depending on the situation.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511309#Comment_3511309
delaying the killer has always been what survivors are supposed to do.
also, all of these perks are still good at their job. and dh was the 10th most used perk if I remember correctly.
You're missing the forest for the trees. The killer's objective is to prevent the exit gates from being powered. The killer's win condition is simply to Kill all four survivors, by any means.
The survivors objective is to power the exit gates. Their win condition is to Escape.
Progressing a generator is not at all like getting two hits on a survivor. Generators cannot be likened to hook states. I sufficiently explained why. The only commonality they have is that they permanently progress the objective. Survivors can do nothing to avoid being tunneled, short of never being found in the first place.
You're talking about tunneling like the only time it ever happens is when survivors induce it. Survivor-induced tunneling is not tunneling. You can do absolutely nothing wrong, but because you were the first hooked, the killer has to tunnel you out of the game for the sake of efficiency.
All the second chance perks in the game won't save you from a killer who wants you out of the match. They'll throw the match to make it happen, if that's what it takes, and the only thing you did wrong was be the first person hooked.
Being tunneled simply isn't fun, much like being genrushed isn't fun, yet the former is more common than the latter.
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@Pluto_1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510781#Comment_3510781
So you think that if I tunnel then I am deliberately trying to make the game unfun for the survivor? You think that's my goal?
Mind you, I neither camp nor tunnel but I will die on this hill.
I think that your goal is to win, by any means necessary, and that you aren't concerned that the other party isn't having fun.
I think that it's important to remember that the other party are still people, and if you wouldn't enjoy it, chances are they aren't enjoying it either. That's about what it boils down to.
Mind you, I don't mean to make this sound as if I mean you personally, since you did say that you don't engage in tunneling or camping.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510872#Comment_3510872
If survivors sincerely considered "tunneling" to be that big of a problem, they would stack anti-tunnel perks instead of mft+resi builds.
Survivors already play with 5 perks thanks to basekit BT. we dont need survivors using MFT+Resi+hope+adren AND getting another 4 Perk effects just because they got off the hook.
There already exists perks to counter the "unfun tactics" survivors claim.
Dont like slugging? bring Unbreakable.
Hate getting punished because of your teammate doing an unsafe rescue? bring OTR and DS.
Hate camping? Bring reassurance or just literally finish your gens. In 120 seconds the remaining team can finish 3 gens and 99 the other 2.
If your teammate unhooks you in the killers face, thats your teammates fault, not the killer for punishing it.
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These kinds of posts always bring out the most entitled of survivors essentially asking for BHVR to give them more basekit perks because survivors are unable to grasp the concept of swapping out their perks.
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The only marginally acceptable proposal is to remove player collision from survivors with basekit BT and OTR endurance so they dont get THEMSELVES tunneled.
Way before the DS rework, before basekit BT, people would say the same things.
This resulted in survivors stacking "second chance" perks. This made killers irrationally angry, because survivors weren't actually supposed to listen.
DS, UB, DH, BT. I've played long enough to remember when that was quite literally every game on every survivor who's been playing the game for longer than 100 hours.
The DS rework needed to happen, but then they nerfed the stun duration so now it's worthless. DH needed a nerf, but then they nerfed it again, and now almost nobody uses it. UB is so situational that you only ever see it complained about in Twins games. BT only extends the duration for which an unhooked survivor has endurance and haste for. OTR is a fantastic anti-tunnel perk, unless the killer decides they're just going to tunnel you anyway.
There's basically nothing survivors can do to outright stop the killer from tunneling them. They can only delay the killer.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511116#Comment_3511116
neither does the killer? the objective is just to kill the survivors.
you can't undo a hook state, and you can't undo finished gens. that's the correct comparison.
regressing gens is akin to a survivor getting a stun or something like that. reseting the distance between them and the killer. so the "chase progress" is "regressed".
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511149#Comment_3511149
either they are both fine, or none is.
the killer is one affected, are killers not people too? do they not deserve a fun game where they get to do their thing instead of downing one survivor and the gates opening?
it's silly. the survivor getting tunneled also played the entire match. and according to most people I hear, getting chased is the most fun part of the game.
No, the killer's objective is not to kill the survivors. That's their win condition. The survivors win condition is to escape. The survivors objective is to repair the generators to power the exit gates. The killer's objective is to prevent the survivors from completing their objective.
You likened hook states to completed generators, and that just doesn't work because the two are not comparable. A generator can be regressed, and progress can be stalled almost indefinitely. A completed generator cannot be undone, but there is nothing a survivor can do to avoid being tunneled, nor can their team prevent the killer from doing so.
Efficiency is boring. If everyone played the game in the most efficient way possible, nobody would want to play anymore, because it's boring. It's why people complain about tunneling, camping, and genrushing. They're all so, so boring.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510821#Comment_3510821
Finishing all gens too fast ruins the experience for the killer and sucks the fun out of the game.
But I guess it's fine cause a gen isn't a person?
Survivors don't have another objective. It's either do gens, or do nothing. You can't undo a hook state, but you can undo gen progress. I think it's weird that people are more concerned with winning than they are with actually having a fun, enjoyable experience.
Genrushing is boring, tunneling is boring. Both suck the fun out of the game and ruin the experience for the other party.
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@Moz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510800#Comment_3510800
Mindbreaker gives survivors sprint burst on demand, which is actually worse.
Which they can do anyway, by 99ing their SB. The pallets don't magically cease to exist when somebody is afflicted with blindness. WoO isn't the autopilot perk people think it is when pallets spawn close enough together that you don't really need to think about where to go next.
The real strength of WoO is knowing which pallets are gone.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510869#Comment_3510869
Well I don't think it'd be possible to truly remove it. 😜
Its tricky though because you want to design it in a way where it's impossible to weaponize against the killer.
One idea I was toying around with in my head was cranking up the basekit BT to 30 seconds of 15% haste, vault-speed, and endurance, as well as show the auras of pallets and vaults like WoO. But have it disable in EGC and remove collision from the survivor.
The idea is to make the survivor so cumbersome to chase that it's a guaranteed loss even against less experienced players. But there is no way for it to prevent the killer from applying pressure to other survivors.
The only issue is that this would severely affect competitive play since they play for hookstates, but they can adapt tbh.
I was toying around with an idea that would give the unhooked survivor 300% haste for 3 seconds, giving them roughly 32m of distance from the hook, but I couldn't think of a suitable way for it to deactivate in endgame so as to prevent guaranteed escapes.
I also couldn't think of adequate compensation for the killer.
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@HaunterofShadows said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510787#Comment_3510787
That's what I was going to say. If anything, people run it to counter sprint burst
I was under the same impression. That people run Fearmonger to counter Sprint Burst, rather than for the blindness effect. Tbh, I've had games where the killer was running Third Seal and it just got left until all the gens were done.
I always run WoO, and while blindness is a very minor invonvenience, it's not like it makes a huge difference to me either. It just lets me keep track of dead zones, rather than guiding me to pallets and loops.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510852#Comment_3510852
Anyone that still defends tunneling is either misguided or just being edgy.
"Its unfun" is a perfectly good reason to remove tunneling imo, my friends are all also getting burnt out because of the constant tunneling and camping too. Its gotten to the point where they beg me to get tunneled instead so they can actually play the game since they're not good enough to stay off the hook for longer than 10 seconds.
In essence it is a skill issue, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't get changed, any strategy that prevents someone from playing should be either super hard to pull off or super uncommon/reserved for competitive games.
The fact that any noob can pick up Wesker and successfully tunnel every game is a problem. That being said, killers do need to be rewarded or buffed elsewhere, it just sucks that their meta playstyles are both unhealthy.
I think that rather than outright removing the playstyle, it would be better to disincentivise it as much as possible.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509766#Comment_3509766
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509768#Comment_3509768
really don't see the point of repeating what someone else already said.
it's a strategy you can use.
sometimes you have to use it to catch up.
survivors don't ignore a 90%gen and go for a fresh one in name of "fairness", why should the killer have to ignore the death hook survivor and go for a fresh one?
it's just part of the game.
it doesn't have to be fun to be fair.
etc...
and I really have no reason to see tunneling as unfair.
unfun? depends on the person as the first reply showed, but I can actually see the point of it not being fun.
mean? sure.
unnecessary? ok.
but unfair? no.
I agree that tunneling isn't unfair. It's a perfectly valid strategy, and yeah it sucks to be on the receiving end but it is what it is. That said...
Generators are not sentient, and don't have feelings. In no way is tunneling comparable to survivors doing a generator at 90% instead of starting a fresh one. Tunneling someone off hook ruins their experience, and sucks the fun out of the game for that player.
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@Moz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510677#Comment_3510677
Oh yes, woe to the nubs. It's an insane information perk that is always on unless blinded. Windows is the primary reason why so many killers feel they need to run mindbreaker.
It's really not. That might be why you run it, but I sincerely doubt a large number of killer players see it as enough of a problem they need to bring a perk to counter it.
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While another person's fun isn't your responsibility, deliberately going out of your way to make the game as unfun as possible for people only serves to drive people away from the game.
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Windows is fine. There's no need to nerf it. If survivors are choosing to run it over other, more impactful, game-changing perks, that's a major W for killers.
It doesn't really help experienced survivors to chain pallets together, since most pallets are close enough together that you can see them and plan this anyway.
The real strength of WoO is to know which pallets have and haven't been used, because not everyone plays as a 4-man swf that's able to perfectly communicate their exact location, exactly which resources have been used, exactly where the killer is and which location they're heading towards.
TL;DR: WoO is fine, because not everyone plays like they're Team Eternal. Run Third Seal if you hate it so much.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509392#Comment_3509392
I don't think it needs more elaboration, it says it right there: Because it is an inconvenience for them. That's the difference. Sorry, but you are trying to defend the indefensible for some reason that I have to say, I don't get.
I'm not trying to defend anything. I'm simply explaining the reason to you.
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About the Public Test Builds
Platform Availability:
The Public Test Build is only available to Players of the Steam version of Dead by Daylight, which excludes any other PC-version and the Console versions.
This is because Steam is the only platform/store that provides the Developers with a convenient way to temporarily publish and modify a beta build without requiring to go through lengthy certification processes, let alone provide it as an option in the first place.
I don't know much about the Xbox insider program, but unless it allows them to temporarily publish and modify a beta build without requiring certification, PTB will never come to consoles.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509372#Comment_3509372
That didn't prevent other developers to do all kinds of Betas and test of their games. Either way, what is the excuse for not having a PTB for Epic, then?
About the Public Test Builds
Platform Availability:
The Public Test Build is only available to Players of the Steam version of Dead by Daylight, which excludes any other PC-version and the Console versions.
This is because Steam is the only platform/store that provides the Developers with a convenient way to temporarily publish and modify a beta build without requiring to go through lengthy certification processes, let alone provide it as an option in the first place.
@Mandy could probably elaborate further on how the PTB differs from ordinary betas.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509001#Comment_3509001
The question is, how much close can the turrets be? Because even if the rate of losing power is the same no matter how many turrets burn you, the best case scenario I have seen so far is the bar filling half by destroying just one with a tail attack, meaning that if two turrets are too close to each other even if you destroy one of them the other is guaranteed to take your power away.
Also, what prevents survivors to abuse this by using one of their multiple Endurances to body block you from the turret? Something like "I have Endurance, I know you going to hit me soon, so I'm going to go straight to the turret and stand between you and it." As far as I can think of, the only options would be hit him, which would result in him gaining distance and you being slowed down by the fire and a M1 killer until your power restores, or having to drop the chase because you know it's going to take another chase to catch him and is not worth it.
In my opinion, survivors shouldn't have the ability to nullify the killer's power for the whole game (AKA having infinite countermeasure items against him) to begin with, but if they have it at least it would be nice if they won't be able to put him in any more lose/lose situations with them.
PD: If PTB feedback is so important, it would be nice for you to bring it to other platforms as well, so everyone can give their first-hand opinion on the changes and new features being tested.
PTB Feedback is important, but consoles have this little thing called patch certification which prevents them from bringing the PTB to consoles. Or something along those lines anyway. All I know is that it takes too much time.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507778#Comment_3507778
in theory you can in fact break even that 3 gen.
just takes a very dedicated team to each be on a gen, leave when she comes and go back in asap. probably gonna take way too long regardless...
Which you aren't able to in pubs. Versed a SM on Haddonfield, she never commited to chases, locked down her three gen at the start of the match, drones over each of the generators, and she only patroled those gens.
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There wouldn't be any way to apply pressure. Tunneling and camping suck, but 3 gen strats are mostly fine. The core idea behind a 3-gen is that it has to be something survivors can break. Certain killer powers make it too easy to 3-gen, and that's a problem. All SM has to do is lock down the three gen with her drones and patrol that area, never really committing to chasing anyone.
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Kate because she's the best looking survivor in the game. But also cause of her perks.
Kate is best girl, and you cannot convince me otherwise.
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3505010#Comment_3505010
hurray!!! totally a killer should abuse bloodlust 1/2/3 to counter a single not exhaustion perk , oh wait bloodlust deactives when losing chase and guess what perk allows survivors to hold W to the moon when a m1 killer with no mobility power kicks a god pallet.
(not only that MFT has more uses than people dont know YET and Im sick of explaining those on many posts)https://media.tenor.com/Pr8qa_mj62kAAAAM/shia-labeouf-clapping.gif
You right i should maybe play , KILLERS with actual powers than can counter this perk , how i didn't thought about it , ohh wait.
I assume that survivors would enjoy facing nurses , blights / wesker with strong addons in order to handle MFT alone , brilliant.
The holding W argument is so weird. Like what are survivors supposed to do? Hide? Good luck with that with the amount of aura reading perks in the game.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506084#Comment_3506084
So you expect the killer to wait outside until the survivors are bored and come out themselves? And then what if they run back down there the moment you start chasing them? Some of us are not Nurse and Blight mains, which means that some of us can't end chases in 10 seconds.
But I guess it's fine because eventually they will have to do the other gens and there is no possible way they would make their way down there again. Because don't you know the preschool locks itself closed after the gen is done? Yeah, me neither. This is the same argument as back in the good old days with Boil Over on the RPD library. "Just down them before they get there, baby killer." I still find it hard to believe that people actually defend these things.
It wasn't fine back then and it's not fine now. The only question is how long it's going to take BHVR to do something about this.
You're absolutely right. It was busted on RPD, and it's busted on Badham. I think the way they added hooks to locations where Boil Over could be abused was a fine solution.
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@FreddyVoorhees said:
Whatever it is labeled as , it is still an advantage that originates from outside the game's source code. The amount of info comms can give to survivors can make or break strategies. Not to mention constant live broadcast of every move the killer is making. This can impact certain killers quite a lot. If one survivors see you do something , all of them instantly know it across the whole map , yet they are not supposed to know.
Unless devs throw in a lore entry on how survivors can telepathically communicate in the trials , it is an outside-the-game advantage.
Even the most experienced players have said the strength of SWF is reliable teammates and not comms. The constant live broadcast of every move the killer is making simply does not happen as often as you think it does.
Team Eternal makes clock callouts look easy, but they're all on the same page and all of a similar skill level. To get to that point, there's so much stuff that has to be established prior to a match. It works because they play as a 4-man squad, but it simply does not work when you have an information gap.
The lore is for flavor and not meant to be taken literally.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506523#Comment_3506523
You literally googled it in a law definition to reference, that is not the same thing. Just because it can be used in law does not make it solely for law.
"Yes it is. Also, once again, neither the player base nor google defines the rules of the game."
That does not negate my aforementioned point. BHVR defines their rules, that does not change the definition of cheating though.
"By definition, playing with friends and communicating with them is not only not cheating, nor unfair"
Incorrect. The game is not balanced for swf, that makes it unfair.
"If something doesn't break the established rules of the game, it isn't cheating."
Incorrect. "Breaking the Rules" is not the sole establisher for "cheating". That is misunderstanding its definition.
"To cheat is to break an established set of rules."
Wrong. It can be used in that sense, but is not the sole decider.
You are not using the word "cheating" by its correct definition.
Slightly different wording, but the context is the same. Principles of Equality and Justice are the foundations for the legal system.
You're trying to define SWF as being unfair because the game isn't balanced around it. The game isn't balanced around tunneling, camping or slugging either, does that mean those are unfair? While we're at it, the game isn't balanced around looping either. Guess that's unfair too. The maps aren't balanced either, so I guess at this point the entire game should just be deleted because it just isn't fair.
Under the broadest definition, everything could be defined as unfair. The reality is that not everything is fair, equitable and just. We do not live in a perfect world, and videogames are not perfect products either. You're twisting the contextual definition of words to suit your narrative because you don't like SWF.