Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4023381#Comment_4023381
That's ultimately what happens in DbD as it is. Ranked wouldn't introduce that problem. We already have players sweating their way to absurd win streaks.
Then a ranked mode wouldn't change anything.
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No.
Let's use Overwatch 2 as an example. Quickplay is supposed to be the casual queue. Do you know what you get instead? Comp players mocking casual players for not being on their level. Comp players curbstomping casual players. Comp players using the casual queue to "warm up".
Marvel Rivals also does this.
You cannot fix behavioral problems with a ranked mode.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022169#Comment_4022169
there isnt much i can say if you truly believe giving a stealth killer a terror radius via comms isnt giving an advantage. i have played in SWF before so i know how helpful it can be. one match, i was in a duo v scratch mirror myers on hawkins. i was on the gen upstairs in the little dead end bit. my due team mate saw myers heading to the stairway and told me. i was able to get off the gen and run before myers could hit me. if i was soloq i would have been hit or worse grabbed off the gen.
did my due team mate give precise call outs like what side of the stairway myers was? no. did they say the exact distance from stairs? no. it was still enough time for me to run which delayed getting hit. in a game where time is everything, that hit being avoided made a huge difference.
as soloq when i see TR kicking in and im on a gen in the shack or somewhere that has low visibility i am able to walk away and make sure killer doesnt see me leaving no scratch marks. they often waste time searching lockers and find nothing. a heads up from a team mate is clearly an advantage v stealth killers and if you honestly think otherwise then i dont know what more i can say other than your just flat out wrong.
Not what I said, but I'll bite.
Take an outdoor map, and you have several variables and three possible approaches to account for. Knowing the killer is going toward shack isn't very helpful unless you jump off the gen at the first hint of a terror radius. Which is what new players do.
Even applying the idea of "giving stealth killers a terror radius" only works when everyone knows where the killer is at all times via coordinated callouts.
It's not that comms aren't advantageous; it's that inefficient communication makes that advantage insignificant.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022105#Comment_4022105
comms saying killer heading to shack is all thats needed, thats often enough time sneak away or atleast pre run, hide in locker. you dont need seal quality comms for it to be effective. i pre run with TR sometimes, it helps, i dont know where the killer coming from i just know they are close and getting closer. same applies with comms, it basically gives stealth killers a terror radius which they shouldnt have.
Sneak away? Killers move at 4.6m/s on average. In the time it's taken to communicate that the killer is going to shack, they're already between 4.6m - 13.8m away depending on how long it takes to relay that information.
If you hide in a locker, you are almost certainly getting caught. A gen that has significant progress, but no scratch marks is a good indicator that a survivor is nearby.
Comms are only effective when you can relay precise information. Outside information you would've learned anyway, they're largely ineffective without a coordinated callout system.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022084#Comment_4022084
if you think people on comms having a laugh together are keeping quiet about the killer heading up to someone on a gen your very wrong lol. they dont need to play to win. they could be having a laugh then someone sees killer creeping up on someone, they would probably call it out not stay quiet while the killer grabs their team mate off a gen. or would you keep quiet about what your currently seeing and let the killer go for the grab?
Apparently I wasn't clear enough that most SWFs use vague, landmark-based, imprecise callouts rather than coordinated callouts like the clock system. "On a gen near a L-T wall" could be almost anywhere on the map.
Aside from pallets at specific landmarks, they couldn't tell you precisely which pallets are gone. Communication is not inherently advantageous unless you optimize it.
By time someone says "Killer's heading toward Shack", that information is already outdated. It's also imprecise. Where are they going to shack from? What direction? Are they going to intersect with anyone else on the way?
Giving SoloQ Comms won't put them on the same playing field as a 4-man SWF, because coordinated callouts need to be pre-established. At best, you're putting them on the level of duos — who lose more than their SoloQ counterparts.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022077#Comment_4022077
Survivor: "Killer, you have to play how i want you to play."
Killer: "ok, can i tell you how to play?"
Survivor: "dont be absurd, im a survivor, our roles are not equal so i can tell you how to play the game. Doesnt mean you can tell me how to play"
Killer: "of course, sorry to even suggest it, you play how you want, i will follow your rules"
Ye thats just not going to happen lol
DBD has a very long history of each side trying to tell the other side how to play.
- Bodyblocking is toxic.
- Flashlights are toxic.
- X Perk is toxic.
- Genrushing is toxic.
- Hook sabos are toxic.
- SWF is toxic.
- SWF is cheating.
- Pallet stuns are toxic.
The list could go on and on. The Survivor Rulebook may be infamous as a meme, but that doesn't mean there isn't a Killer Rulebook.
Both sides try to tell the other side how to play. This isn't even exclusive to DBD.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022049#Comment_4022049
soloq is nowhere near close to being equal to SWF on comms.
can soloq pin point hex totems they see so the whole team know?
can soloq quickly let the 1 guy doing a gen in the shack the stealth killer is heading their way?
can soloq tell the whole team they spotted the killer has a certain perk so be mindful of it?
can soloq tell the team what gen they are on or what areas are pallet dead zones?
Yes i do want comms, if people are toxic there would be a mute button. But for me, i would use comms to call out these things, i could be a team player, it would truly close the gap on soloq and SWF with comms. instead, i feel i have no choice but play for me and play selfishly which is what a lot of survivors hate about soloq.
You're talking about communication. Which I already covered. Almost every other information gap is provided by the HUD.
Most information that could be conveyed via comms would be imprecise and vague. Knowing the killer is going towards Shack means nothing if you don't know which direction.
Pre-established coordinated callouts are, in general, not widespread across all SWFs. Not every SWF is aiming to win every single match. They go in with the intention of trying to win, but they don't synergize their builds or establish a coordinated callout system. They largely play to have fun together.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022010#Comment_4022010
im not against players doing what they need to do to win. what i am against is players telling others how they should or shouldnt play the game. i think its unfair swf teams get advantages soloq just cant have but i play around it, i make soloq work for me even with tunneling. same goes for when im killer, i dont tell these SWF teams stop using comms because its not fair, i simply accept it and play to it via tunneling.
you saying need SWF is needed to counter tunneling which is flat out wrong. im countering it in my solo matches with minimal issues so SWF is not needed at all, it depends on playstyle.
rewarding low skill tactics? so 2 survivors are top loopers and keep the killer busy all match while 2 survivors crank out gens….pretty sure the gen workers are showing no skill at all yet they get rewarded with an escape because other people looped the killer so well. this has always been the case. are these survivors less entitled to win because they showed no skill?
The advantages conferred by being in a SWF compared to SoloQ is coordination and communication.
That's naturally how things work. SoloQ has gradually been raised up to be on near equal footing with SWF in terms of information.
Could Bhvr add voice chat for SoloQ? Sure, but do you really want that? Given how toxic players are in the post-game chat, do you really think they wouldn't be even worse in-game?
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021812#Comment_4021812
I know that Survivors are quitting because of these things and I agree with you that they need fine tuning.
Thats why I am asking: What is the desiered playstyle that would make survivors happy?
I don´t want a discussion about what the devs do nor I want to frame that killers can´t do anything else.
I want to know "What is the Playstyle a Killer should play so that survivors stop deinstall the game"
There is no singular desired playstyle. Just as killers are not a hivemind, survivors are not a hivemind.
Personally, I don't mind slugging so long as I'm not deliberately being bled out. I don't mind tunneling when it's done in the endgame. Not even going to address camping.
But tunneling generally kills the fun. I get it, it's easier to go for the person who's injured and has a hook state because then you can eliminate them faster, but at the same time I just don't think that's very fun to play against.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021337#Comment_4021337
That's objectively not true lol In no way shape or form are low to mid SWF indistinguishable from SoloQ. Often in SoloQ there's a DC, which BHVR doesn't even account for nor release stats on, that's not happening in SWF, not even low tier. The only way SoloQ is enjoyable is if paired with a SWF team. Though then the Killer usually DCs.
Not all SWF are equal, but that's no different than how all SoloQ players are not equal… however, their is a baseline average in both of those sides. SWF are generally overtuned for the game, SoloQ is generally undertuned of the game, which literally is why the game remains unbalanced with BHVR scrambling to release fixes, which don't do much of anything.
SWF aren't overtuned for the game. They have no mechanical advantage over SoloQ.
Even comms aren't inherently advantageous. You have to know to communicate effectively to get the most out of comms. The enjoyability of SoloQ is entirely irrelevant. As for DCs, that depends on matchmaking.
SoloQ has a wide variety of skill ranges, with as wide a variety of reasons why someone might be playing badly. The baseline average is MMR. At Low - Mid MMR, a team of SWFs cannot be distinguished from a team of SoloQ players unless they do something very obvious to highlight that they're a SWF or SoloQ.
The perception that SWF is overpowered stems from years of anecdotes based on a handfull of games. Hardly enough to form a definitive conclusion, let alone an accurate data representation.
The fact that duos lose more than SoloQ players (-0.24%), while Trios only barely win more than Solos (+0.22%) shows that overall SWFs are not overpowered. They may win more at high MMR, but that's because DBD was not balanced for high level competitive play where efficiency and optimal play are the fundamentals to winning.
Problems arise when you have a full SWF, but I would hazard a guess that most full SWFs are playing to win, especially at High MMR.
As for DCs, Bhvr takes them into account by not including them in kill rates. They absolutely have data on DCs, though. Data they're not obligated to share.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021194#Comment_4021194
Yawn You know as well as I do why SWF is op and why it's ruining game balance with the entire laundry list of game mechanics they circumvent for Killer and how much they get from comms and even the lack of comms, you just don't care because it benefits you.
The team doesn't have to be Team Eternal, I play with friends who are literally awful, beyond awful, but we often win just because we are in discord and are able to make callouts that are impossible in SoloQ… things that ruin a Killers playstyle, mechanics and perks. Then I play SoloQ and it's literally the most miserable experience possible through lack of real matchmaking as well as how outright toxic the Killers are. The difference is night and nuclear explosion.
High MMR 4-man SWFs not only play optimally, but they've also optimized communication.
Your average SWF that you see from Low to Mid MMR is intidistinguishible from a team of Solo Queue players. Streamers, and the DBD community, have tried very hard to paint this narrative that all SWFs are equal and that Solo Queue players are bad. The reality is that neither is true.
The laundry list of mechanics they circumvent for the killer must be incredibly small. Unless, of course, you meant exploit.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019418#Comment_4019418
This really encapsulates the situation perfectly. You missed DS 2.0, when they restored the stun to 5s and Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringe. Killer players also complained about DH Validation and Pallet Validation, resulting in the elimination or gutting of those systems. I specifically remember the healthy complaints and how Self-Care was too strong, and I thought to myself, 'people wasting time in a corner to heal is great for The Killer.' So they nerfed it, and more people decided to stay Injured and work on Generators. They don't want people to be able to heal, but they also don't want them working on gens while injured.
People complained about medkits, so bhvr flattened the entire category so that each medkit only guarantees a single full heal without add-ons.
Predictably, Survivors responded by foregoing medkits or bringing the syringe add-on. Those who decided to forego medkits brought toolboxes instead.
As much as killers hate it, because healing ruins the "hit and run" playstyle, healing keeps survivors off gens — the main objective that will power the gates.
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@Roco45 said:
Start calling it out like it is though, Killers tunnel because the game favors SWF and the Killer, at base, treats every match from the jump as if they're facing a SWF. That is why they tunnel, slug and camp. It's the easiest thing to do that nets the best results, which is overkill for SoloQ since they lack coordination and often stomps SWF because it takes immense coordination to negate it. Simply lumping SoloQ and SWF together is dishonest and needs to stop or BHVR will never achieve any semblance of balance.
Yea, gen speeds go by too fast, so why don't they impose repair speed penalties for SWF depending on how many are in the SWF, so gens take longer for them. Oh look, they are all stacking meta perks along with their ultra discord coordination, so why not prevent SWF from repeating the same perks, everyone in the party must use different perks. Those two changes alone would mellow out SWF and attempt to bridge the Grand Canyon gap between SWF and SoloQ, then Killers can be adjusted accordingly.
I honestly cannot see why BHVR caters to, what they claim through stats, is the minority of Surv players and why people in this community seem so blind to the actual root cause of these issues.
Ah yes, the dreaded SWF and the proposal to punish people for playing with their friends. Being in a SWF doesn't magically make the generators go faster, nor does it automatically translate into a loss for the killer, nor does it mean that they're Team Eternal.
To call it out like it is would be to say that killers tunnel because they can. They don't need a reason to tunnel; it's simply more efficient to do so.
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@Brimp said:
Because rightfully the changes were not made in the best way. It actively punished ALL forms of survivors just being downed and hooked. Which the only fix should have been extreme scenarios and not giving the survivor basekit unbreakable because they went down under a pallet twice with a teammate that has Background Player. Also the incentives they tried to give simply were not good enough for lower tiered killers.
And it quite literally has been shown that BHVR caters more to the casual and new players rather than people who actually get decent at the game so I guess screw them right? Why make it more fair at all levels when you can just give new players a experience by dictating how a killer can play. Which is crazy to think since DBD is a non-party PVP game.This isn't some new revelation. They've always catered to new/casual players. This isn't an e-sport. Casual players can be both casual and experienced. People play other games and take extended breaks from games. That's normal.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998290#Comment_3998290
Giving killers a pitiful reward isn't helpful. I'm going to say your reward idea should never happen.
What exactly is it you want for killers? The rewards for not tunneling are fairly significant, so what more could be done? The only thing I can think of is 25% repair penalty on survivors as extra incentive for not tunneling, but then perks would have to be adjusted to compensate for this and avoid the problem of survivors just giving up because doing a gen becomes impossible beyond a certain percentage.
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The tunneling update could've been solved by just reducing the number from 6 to 4. Even low-tier killers could work with that. It would punish tunneling without adversely affecting killers who don't tunnel.
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@oecrophy said:
BHVR doesn’t hate killers or survs — they hate losing newbies. In a decade-old game with a giga learning curve, fresh players get farmed and quit. That’s lost shop $$$, so balance keeps leaning new/casual to boost retention.
BHVR isn’t anti-killer or pro-surv — they’re pro-metrics.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997353#Comment_3997353
But my take still stands: you don’t balance a game around bad soloQ matches with bad players. This is not how PVP works.
You can't balance around the top 1% either. It fundamentally does not work and alienates the average player.
I genuinely wish people would stop with the Us vs Them rhetoric and focus on what's good in concept, but bad in numerics, and what's bad in concept, and should be removed.
There are far too many people shouting that survivors just need to git gud and learn to play better instead of crying over spilt milk. More often than not, when someone complains about being tunnneled, it's their frustration spilling over—to clarify, I am not talking about obviously salty trolls in post-game chat—from being tunneled out match after match.
There is no playing better when you're already playing well, but the killer's persistence forces you out of the match. Even if the killer loses, it still feels bad for the person who got tunneled out. Not everyone sits there and goes "Well at least everyone else got out".
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954630#Comment_3954630
And why exactly do Survivors have to rescue in EGC for 4 Escapes? Yes, Gen's done, gate's open, blabla. Buf if you get a 3 escapes and last survivor dies by camping…. Do Survivors think they did not win? Do you REALLY think the Killer won?
I had games where I got zero hook as Killer, and Survivors refuse to leave the game and still keep taunting me, purposefully looping around the gate just to exert their dominance. Yes you have won, then WHY are you not leaving?? I had to BEG them to leave by opening the gate myself to push them out, just to get T-bag GG EZ by a 4-man Survivor. Like WHY do they have to do this?
PS: I always give survivors hatch if I have the chance, but I LEGIT saw the whole team saying GG EZ after I give the last one hatch. How do you feel if you play Killer? Just accept? Patience has its limits.
Not a fair comparison. If survivors go back for the fourth, they do so knowing that it can result in an endgame snowball.
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@CruelLimits1982 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954387#Comment_3954387
Its also not necessary for survivors to stand at the exit gate till EGC finishes im not trying to turn this into Us Vs Them but I hope if they find a solution to the slugging for 4k situation they do the same for what I just mentioned
It shouldn't need to be explained why this is an unfair comparison. You are not physically at the mercy of survivors, unable to do anything but watch them tbag at the gates.
Slugged survivors are at the mercy of the killer, and have no options other than spitefully hiding to bleed out instead of being hooked.
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Unfortunately, the emblem system requires both sides to play ball. Survivors need to do a bit of everything to pip, and killer needs to use their power, have relatively short chases, and hook the survivors but not too fast.
With the removal of depipping, it's not as bad as it used to be, but still annoying.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954402#Comment_3954402
But they don’t make say headshots easier to hit with Widow for example because average players can’t reliably hit them, because as you get better you can hit more of those shots and it would make the gameplay super oppressive at higher skill levels. People can always improve no matter how much or little you play.
You can’t buff killers because average players get looped too long because they can get better, you can’t balance around teammates not doing anything because at higher ranks they will, you can’t add extra pallets because survivors don’t know how to use loops because better players will be able to use them too effectively.
If you balance around the highest level of play, I guarantee you the balance will not trickle down.
If you balance around the potential for players to improve, then you alienate the casual player. The vast majority of casual players will never reach high MMR, thus the focus shouldn't be on improving balance for high MMR. Especially in a game like Dead by Daylight, where the asymmetrical nature means that balancing around the top would make high skill-floor killers downright oppressive.
Evidence of this can be seen in Overwatch with Tracer, who has only ever been bad during the GOATS meta. She's easily dealt with at the highest levels of play, but can be downright oppressive and obnoxious to play against for the average player.
The high MMR experience doesn't need balance changes to be improved. It needs fundamental changes that benefit everyone, such as playing for hooks instead of kills.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954251#Comment_3954251
Most PvP games balance for the top because people can always get better and improve; if balanced for the average leaving the top unbalanced then there’s nothing those top players can do except accept it or quit playing.
The vast majority of players in PvP games will never reach the highest levels of gameplay. One important factor is time. The vast majority of players for PvP games are casual players whose skill level falls in the Average and Above Average brackets.
While they can improve, they aren't necessarily interested in treating the game like a job. They play to have fun, regardless of whether they win or lose. Very few of these players will ever reach the highest levels of play. To put into Overwatch terms, a few of these players might reach Diamond but the vast majority will remain in Gold/Plat.
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@Scarlett1111 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953701#Comment_3953701
15-20 games a day. I have over 100 hours over the past 2 weeks on steam alone. The vast majority of them before the anniversary was with leavers.
So, you're seeing at least one DC in 16 out of 20 matches? That's rather odd.
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@Scarlett1111 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952766#Comment_3952766
80% of games there is at least one person DCing. I can sit there getting a 8 hooks and letting them all leave and someone will leave the game, I can be playing survivor and someone will leave as soon as they are on the ground for longer than 15 seconds, or left on hook for longer than 10 seconds. The vast majority of games have at least one person leaving before abandon is even given as an option.
How many games are you playing, on average?
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The afk points system is pretty bad
Can't address why people hook suicide when a good portion of those people do it just because they don't like the killer. Others have one bad chase and decide they'd rather go next. There's nothing bhvr can do to address that.
Didn't they killswitch the go next detection system?
The anti-face camping mechanic is doing exactly as advertised. It's supposed to be disabled in the endgame since the killer has no gens left at that point, and camping a survivor in the endgame secures a kill.
The point of wiggling is so that the killer can't just hook you in the basement every time, not to give you a genuine option to break free (though I'd argue it should, and I miss the bonus progression from hitting great skill checks)
It's not as though bhvr doesn't care about the survivor experience. Sometimes things don't work out and that's okay. They care about both sides of the player base, but it's impossible to please one without upsetting the other.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948190#Comment_3948190
I agree that maybe the door he's coming out of should make more noise like a beep before he exits, but I don't think there should be a map wide audio queue because that kinda defeats the jumpscare element of his kit but yeah. Maybe encouraging ST players to exit a door further away from their target might teach them how to stealth properly too.
His kit isn't built around jumpscares. If it was, the very loud clunking of his feet wouldn't be a thing. I don't know where people get the idea that Springtrap is any more the jumpscare killer than literally any stealth killer.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949098#Comment_3949098
My point is the audio cue is what makes this killers bad, it id an obvious indicator and something even someone with 4 hours in the game can rely on to guarantee denying the value of a tp in a reliable way.
Yes every killer has to deal with it, but the actual strong killers can deal with it easier, see any good killer in the game, and it turns out they can do so, most of them do so by dashing, hence why dash killers tend to be strong. The reason we do not have any high tier tp killer (bar singularity and even then his tp is more of a chase tool) is because the whole phylosopy behind dbd designing teleports is to make them useless against a player who can count to 3.
Also I dont know why you didnt adress the fact that yes you can absolutelly tell where sadako is coming from without a doubt.
I didn't address the fact that you can tell where Sadako is coming from because you don't know she's teleporting to a specific tv until she's already in the middle of the animation.
Dash killers are strong because their powers are chase-oriented. Killers like Sadako are weak because their powers aren't chase-oriented. The point of having multiple killers is not to have them be on par with each other in terms of strength, but to offer diversity.
Sadako isn't weak because of the audio cue. The audio cue only plays after she teleports, not before. Sadako is weak because her power is weak in chase. She has no anti-loop and no ranged attack. Her gimmick is that she can demanifest to avoid body blocking and pallet stuns.
We don't have strong teleport killers aside from Singularity because teleporting is extremely strong. Done wrong, it can create a miserable experience for survivors and be nigh-unbeatable. It's important for both sides to have fun. Without survivors, killers don't get games. Without killers, survivors don't get games.
It's in everyone's best interest that we don't get a killer like Nurse that completely ignores counterplay. Teleports are not meant to grant free hits. They are not meant to be a chase tool. You are not supposed to catch survivors with your teleport. It's a tool for getting around the map. Singularity is the exception to this, but the counterplay there is EMPs which can completely disable his power, and breaking line of sight.
The advantage of the teleport is that, with killer props being adjacent to generators now, you're right ontop of the survivors instead of them having a massive headstart. As I've now more than adequately established: An audio cue does not make killers with a teleport bad. The lack of anti-loop and/or ranged attacks does.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949028#Comment_3949028
Sadakos incredibly loud static audio when she comes out of the TV absolutelly tells you where she is coming from, you can exactly pinpoint it even trough walls. And I am sorry, sadako putting pressure all over the map? Lmao what pressure? Sure she can tp all around the map, and do what? She sure as hell wont down me or my team to get pressure cuz she has to catch up to us first, wasting her time, maybe kicking the gen is the most she can do and I can just go work on it again after she tps to another place. Blight can do everything sadako can and more, he can even be a better stealth killer if he uses unforeseen lmao.
Also who preruns as soon as they see you, you can prerun actually faster than from a tr killer, you prerun the second you hear demos tp, see freddy sillouette, hear sadako static, you see the locker handdles vibrate, you hear the turret beeping getting closer, like you are gonna have a hard time trying to convince me people are clueless enough to be sitting ducks when they are given warning that lets them nullify the killer pressure?
Also keep in mid you can prerun and the killer would tp to another gen an not yours, however you can just go back on the gen as soon as you dont hear the loud footsteps or the tr after the sound, you have a full flowchart on how to avoid tps for all those killers with a 100% foolproof.
You keep bringing up pre-running as if you're making a point. Again, what else are survivors supposed to do?
Until you have an actual point about the audio cue, we're done with this discussion. You can't keep falling back on pre-running as a counterpoint when literally every killer has to deal with it.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948610#Comment_3948610
Yeah we are on the same page tho, Im not saying teleporting is a chase power, specially those tps who cannot surprise anyone even if you pay them for it. Im saying while those powers you call chase, they also serve as mobility, why is billy/ghould and blight mobility good and sadako and dredge is cheeks? Easy cuz the former will get to you and will be able to start chasing you right away or can catch up if you prerun cuz of the tr. Meanwhile the movility tps offer just leave you to arrive and still catch up,meaning losing gen time and pressure or just have to give up the chase cuz the audio cue told survivors in advance the perfect way to avoid that tp.
Yes absolutelly powers require counterplay, but we are seeing people need basically a way to make the killers power absolutelly useless. If trapper were released nowadays people would complain you cannot sabotage his traps and that they do not give a big neon red sign that lets you counter them before you step on them
You can make a tp have an indicator, if fact I already showed ST has 3 of them, but no, we need a clear, obvious infallible indicator that will GUARANTEE the teleport cannot surprise anyone. One thing is providing counterplay like you say for example EMPs against singularty, another one is just being able to just ignore the killers power with a 100% reliable way.
Nobody is asking for anything that isn't already standard with every killer. Does Sadako's audio cue tell you which tv she's teleporting to? No. You get an audio cue telling you that she's teleporting. That's all people are asking for. Where you got it in your head that people wanted anything different is beyond me.
Nobody's saying they want to know exactly which door ST is teleporting to. They want a map-wide audio cue, not subtle audio occlusion, that tells them "Hey, ST is teleporting". That's it. They're not asking for a big red neon aura showing ST's exact location.
The difference between Blight and Sadako is that Blight's mobility is on-demand. Sadako's is linked to props that she can teleport between for map pressure. Being able to pressure multiple areas of the map at once is something Blight can't do. The teleport also means that survivors aren't going to pre-run as your terror radius draws nearer to them. They're going to pre-run once they see you, thus allowing you to start chase much sooner than a regular M1 killer.
Survivors are going to pre-run when they see ST exiting the door. The audio cue's only purpose is to tell them that ST is teleporting. That's it. It's not going to change the counterplay, which is pre-running, and it's not going to make ST any weaker.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948411#Comment_3948411
Their secondary power is bad BECAUSE of the audio cue, a sadako can teleport to the other corner of the map but her pressure is gone because hey the 30 seconds she needs to just walk over there now she spends catchig up to the prerun. Same with dredge to a worse degree. Springtrap should not be the expection, in that we agree if bhvr wants to make all tps useless then yeah its unfair STs gets a tp that can actually surprise sentient beings (mind you people are already using the audio occlusion to prerun, but somehow we need a bigger telltale).
As I said to another person here in the forums, springtrap just shows the current dashslop design of killers is comoletely deserved, people want every killer to feel the same, making only a certain type actually effective, god I hope when ST gets nerfed to obscurity people get what they wanted: ghouls and blights, cuz it seems thats what we are asking for.
Once again, it is called counterplay. The audio cue is there to provide counterplay. Without counterplay, there is nothing survivors can do.
Instead of spending 2 minutes walking from one end of the map to the other and losing multiple gens due to a lack of map mobility, Sadako can teleport and push survivors off gens. It is by design that she has to then catch up to the survivors, because otherwise it would be a free hit 100% of the time and the counterplay would be non-existent.
Teleporting is a means of mobility. It's not a chase power. Dashslop killers, as you call them, have chase powers. That's why they're popular. It's also why they tend to have higher killrates than their M1 counterparts.
People don't exclusively want dashslop killers. They want killers whose powers have counterplay.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948445#Comment_3948445
The global sound occlusion doesnt count too right?
We've been over this. It's far too subtle and easy to miss as the only thing it covers is ambient sound.
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@terumisan said:
unbreakable being base is horrifically broken. i ask you what is a killer supposed to do to pressure if you're a m1 killer and the gens are flying because there are certain situations where you don't have time to hook someone
also i'll get downvoted hard for this but i don't feel bad when killers slug for the 4k since i've also been in that situation and understand it
I agree that unbreakable shouldn't be basekit, but I also don't think we should just dismiss the idea of a solution to slugging for the 4k. Either an abandon option, or an option to bleed out faster.
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@[Deleted User] said:
There are already 2 notifcation methods that Springtrap is teleporting. If the door is out of sight you can hear it open, generally theres enough time to make distance.
If you can see the front of the door, watch the number panel, it will start to flash when someone is teleporting to that exact door. It happens as soon as the teleport starts, which gives a huge lead if you make it distance.
You cannot hear the door unless you are directly next to the door. You also cannot see the door panel unless you are facing the panel.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948349#Comment_3948349
Why cant it be both, this is a false dichotomy, they are easy to dunk on because their secondary power is bad, but their tp is also really bad cuz it gives survivors a 3 day notice to prerun accordingly. What makes them bad is gaving a bad power and their teleport which should compensate for having a cheeks power is also cheeks cuz its as obvious as the fact you are playing dbd at that moment so you can just run to safety 100% of the time.
Even with a highly progressed gen you can very easily hear the audio cues other killers have (demo,sadako and dredge) , there is no excuse for not prerunning actively that is not: you could finish the gen so its worth the hit, you are playing without sound, you have a hearing issue or you are blasting music, maybe also if its the first time you are facing those killers.
The audio cue will guarantee you can prerun if you have your audio on
If they're easy to dunk on because their secondary power is bad, then that has nothing to do with the audio cue. If they're bad because the audio cue is taking away the element of surprise, then their power was bad to begin with and the audio cue doesn't have as big an impact as you think.
Your assumption is that the teleport is supposed to compensate for their power being bad, but you haven't considered that not all powers are created equal and not every power is a chase power.
Again, I ask why survivors pre-running is bad? This is something every killer in the game has to deal with. Chasing survivors is part of the game. Springtrap has good map mobility with his doors, and has a ranged attack that provides basekit aura reading and increases his movement speed from 4.4m/s to 4.6m/s. He also has basekit undetectable for 20 seconds after using a security door. Doors aren't hindered by RNG like Dredge's lockers and actually spawn next to generators, allowing ST the ability to actually apply map pressure unlike M1 killers. Arguably far from a mediocre power.
Why should Springtrap be the exception to the norm? Especially when every other killer is consistent in that they all have tells that allow survivors to play around their powers. What, if anything, makes Springtrap special such that he should be the exception?
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947895#Comment_3947895
His teleport(dredge) may not have an audio cue, which it has (the locker doors) and makes him even more useless. But I said that to show that such an obnoxious indicator is what makes dredge teleport useless even if we remove locker rng. Yoy are right unlike those killers sprintrap still has his ranged attack, that would not mean his tp will not be telegraphed and by consequence pointless. One thing does not cancel the other one, you can have a semi decent killer with some mechanics on their kit which are pointless, example: unknowns movement speed slow with direct hits, the killer is still solid, but that part of the power is so useless its not even noticeable.
Sprintrap can move around the map all he wants if you can just prerun 10 seconds before he appears he might as well be chess metchant as the only thing he can do is quick the gen or just hold w 20 seconds to catch up with the survivor, yayy alien gameplay in action.
I mean they can change it, at this point im sure they will, but if they do there is NO room to even consider him a stealth killer he is just a worse huntress with a gimmick mechanic added so that he can kick far gens.
Which is it? Either the audio cue makes them easy to dunk on, or there are other factors as to why Sadako and Dredge are easy to dunk on? It certainly can't be both.
You pointed out all the problems with Dredge that make him easy to dunk on, and not a single one had to do with the audio cue for his teleport.
Currently, ST is getting free hits with his teleport because it isn't telegraphed. If you can't see the pad, then what counterplay is there? If there's no counterplay to it, how is that fun to play against?
An audio cue isn't going to see survivors pre-running every time. Especially not if they're working on a high progress gen. An audio cue would simply be telling them that ST is using a door. It wouldn't be telling them which door, specifically. If they pre-run, then yes you have to catch up to them. Why is that a problem? Every other killer has to do this. Why should ST be the exception?
If we're talking about stealth killers, Ghostface has an audio cue when he's using Nightshroud and is nearby. Wraith has an audio cue when he cloaks. You can hear Myers breathing when he's nearby. These audio cues don't make them bad. There are other factors at play as to why they're bad.
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947804#Comment_3947804
When you actually have a reasonable take rejoin the forums
Explain how it's unreasonable to expect bhvr to maintain consistency. I'll wait.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947743#Comment_3947743
Not really, in the case of sadako you may be right has no one who is actually good at looping will get caught by the phasing if you hold a checkspot so condemned is her only real threat to the player. But in the case of dredge he is weak because of 1: he depens entirely on locker spawns, 2: he is louder than a live concert and on top of it mf glows, so his stealth is non existant if you have eyes and play with audio on and 3: he gives such a warning he is coming you can just prerun the second he selects a locker to tp to, and im not talking about the door slmaming when he arrives at the door, I am surprised not many players know this, but when dredge is teleporting to a locker, the handles of the door will vibrate, pretty clear to see. So that means you can prerun as soon as he selects the locker to teleport to, on top of that add the time to break the lock and chasing that survivor is just gonna throw the game.
If it wasnt funny enough, the new gamma feature, which was a very needed change also just removes nightfall from the equation, do you have a killer that can do nothing of what his kit offers and only could potentially win against people with less than 20 hours or people throwing on purpose/sandbagging.
Look at that, you've just pointed out a list of reasons why Dredge gets dunked on and none of those reasons are that his teleport as an audio cue.
So, why is it then that if Springtrap gets an audio cue when using a door, he's immediately trash tier and is going to get dunked on? His doors spawn next to generators, and they fixed the problem where chests were taking priority over killer props which makes him far less dependent on RNG.
Survivors will pre-run, yes, but let's not forget that Springtrap isn't just an M1 Killer with a teleport. He also has a ranged attack that, when embedded in a survivor, provides free aura reading. Let's also not forget that this isn't just about making sure Springtrap is fun to play as. Healthy counterplay is what makes killers fun to play against.
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947716#Comment_3947716
Outted yourself just like that
Outed myself? I'm not the one going around calling Springtrap the jumpscare killer just because jumpscares are a gimmick of his, as if jumpscares are unique to Springtrap.
When you have an actual point, let me know.
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@Toms4098 said:
Funnily enough, he does a map wide notification that he teleported. Literally everything in the game goes quite
Ambient noise going quiet is rather subtle, and easy to miss over the sound of the generator. It wouldn't make Springtrap garbage to have the audio cue, just consistent with other killers with similar powers.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947714#Comment_3947714
Even with a teleport and map traversal both dredge and sadako are easy to just dunk on. Maybe springtrap can still be decent because of the proyectile, but map movility is nothing if you can just prerun the killer or loop them until next anniversary event, which is definetly the case with the likes of sadako and dredge.
It's called Counterplay. Sadako and Dredge aren't easy to dunk on because they notify survivors that they're teleporting; they're easy to dunk on because their powers are gimmicky and take too long to come into play, but they're also still better than the likes of Ghostface and Myers who have to walk from one end of the map to the other.
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@TheGoone said:
Why doesn't the stealth jumpscare killer give me tells so I can completely invalidate his design and purpose?
That's not his design and purpose, and to present it as such is disingenuous. Springtrap is no more the jumpscare killer than Dredge is. Teleports are not meant to guarantee free hits.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947589#Comment_3947589
Ambient sounds comopletely going away is also not enough of an indicator? Like I am genuinly baffled at this, do people expect sneak attacks to be announced? Dont get me wrong an indicator is needed for counterplay, but seeing as you have 1: door flashing if you have LoS of the door, 2: door opening sound, 3: springtraps foosteps that take effort to not be able to hear them and 4: map wide ambient noice going quiet when he uses his tp, what else does he need? A big red neon sign showing the door he will come out of? Like no wonder bhvr only does dash killers now, people are too used to stealth killers being a joke and it seems they like it that way.
If you've been paying any attention at all:
Every killer with a teleport is consistent in that they have an audio cue when teleporting. Springtrap breaks this established consistency. If you cannot see the door panel, you have no way of knowing if Springtrap is using the door or not.
An audio cue wouldn't make Spingtrap garbage. What it would do is make him consistent with other killers that have similar abilities.
Without the doors, Springtrap would be an M1 Killer with a ranged attack. Without her tvs, Sadako would be an M1 killer. Without lockers, Dredge would be an M1 killer. Etc. Etc. Teleports are extremely powerful map traversal tools. They have map-wide directional audio cues for this exact reason.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946768#Comment_3946768
Not really. If you are not bodyblocked (and then hatch wouldnt matter), you can easily force a down (repair a gen) and then dc.
Yh repairing all gens would take time, but the hatch doesnt make it better. The killer can stand on the hatch and force you to do it anyway. So hatch doesnt help.
Hatch exists as secondary escape bc otherwise it would be pointless to continue playing in some matches. But that wasnt even the first intended goal.
Hostage situation doesn't exclusively refer to bodyblocking. If there's even one gen left, and only one survivor left, there is nothing stopping the killer from keeping them from doing gens and just indefinitely holding them in the match without the hatch.
That's why the hatch can't be removed.
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@Bloodartist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945434#Comment_3945434
I have one: remove the hatch. Then there would be no need to slug.
Hatch exists to prevent a hostage situation.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945398#Comment_3945398
if it's such a problem why not bring unbreakable or exponential and adapt?
So, people should bring a perk for a "just in case"? Sounds an awful lot like the old days where you needed to run DS, BT, UB just in case, and only had one perk for yourself.
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I'd really like an audio cue for when anyone, not just springtrap, uses a door.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
The only nerf I thought was right was the Babysitter one, because it was really stupid for the survivor to run faster than the killer for a whole 30 seconds.
That was the whole point. It was to encourage you to go for the unhooker.
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Just simplify it and increase the amount of time it takes ro repair a gen cooperatively. Apply a ten second increase across the board.
This will slow down the early game, which takes the pressure off killers, without affecting the time it takes to complete a gen solo.
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I think horror-adjacent is fine. I also don't think we need to strictly stick to horror/horror-adjacent for survivor, since the survivor gameplay doesn't change when a new survivor is introduced.
Killer gameplay changes based on the killer's power. This is why I think it's important to stick to horror, or at least horror-adjacent IPs. That said, there's nothing wrong with non-horror IPs as cosmetics. I think it'd be fine for something like Darth Vader as a cosmetic for a killer. I do like that the devs put their own twist on things that aren't horror to make them horror-inspired, so it's not like it can't work. Just not my preference.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
I know I am. I can't believe that Behavior is going to let an offering have such a huge impact on the game lol. I hope you fellow killer mains have been stocking up on shrouds of your own…
But here on the forums, it's going to be the next "hot button issue" that has everyone arguing. It's going to be epic.
It's already started on twitter.