Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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@legiondoctor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772147#Comment_3772147
Then every patch is killer sided.
No its 10-3
There's no such thing as killer-sided or survivor-sided. Tribalism benefits no-one.
It's 12-9.
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@Rudjohns said:
And people are already complaining about meme perks
they deserve all the DH, SB, Lithe, BL, MFT, Unbreakable, Adrenaline, Resilience etc in their matches
Of course they are. This patch was a massive W from the perspective of fun. Those people can go be sourpusses elsewhere.
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It's disingenuous to only count the killer buffs once per killer. It's 12-9. Hiding prestige levels isn't a buff.
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@legiondoctor said:
3 vs 10 this is loopsided and need to be around the same amount
Dredge, Doctor, and Nemesis all got basekit buffs.
Dredge got six buffs. Doctor got three buffs. Nemesis got two buffs.
On the survivor side, the following perks were buffed:
- Mirrored Illusion
- Blast Mine
- Chemical Trap
- Diversion
- Wiretap
- Dance With Me
- Deception
- Flashbang
None of these are even remotely equal in strength to the basekit buffs killers got. Survivors now have a 70 second hook phase duration, and scratchmark visibility was increased (which is a buff to killer)
So, that's 12 buffs for killer vs 9 buffs for survivor.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770694#Comment_3770694
they are never gonna do iri shards like that, but the double xp already helps with the shards anyway
They should consider throwing in Iri Shards though.
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Currently, 2v8 is new and it's something that was highly requested. There's even an event tome for it. Once it becomes permanent, you'll see people playing it less.
As with anything that's available for a limited time, FOMO is a major contributor to the popularity.
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Double XP, maybe throw in some Iri Shards, you'll attract more experienced players to the survivor role. As a reminder, Bloodpoints are great if you're still relatively new to the game, or play very casually, but for more experienced players who already have most or even all, in some cases, of the roster prestiged the offer of extra bloodpoints just doesn't matter.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769194#Comment_3769194
Im saying you are interprating things that arent there. You take these little numbers and use them for your argument even though these little numbers dont tell the full story.
They do tell the full story, though. What you're saying is that the stats are wrong because they aren't accounting for people giving up, but I just proved that you would need a lot of people giving up to make an impact on the statistics.
People remember games in which something negative happened far more prominently than they do games in which nothing negative happened. This leads to people believing a problem is more widespread than it actually is.
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Yeah, no. Nurse is, ironically, fairly weak in 2v8.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768909#Comment_3768909
I will also break something down to you.
Against skull merchant, just hypotheticly speaking because we dont have good enough data (killrates DO NOT tell anything at all) most people give up.
So if 8 out of 10 survivors just ragequit or give up and let themselves get hooked, skull merchant has an astronomicly high killrate but that doesnt show anything how well or bad she performs in an actual match. People that jump towards killrates are just using it for their own narrative but in reality its just that, a number that tells how many people got killed, it doesnt show how good or bad a match went in general.
Thats why the MMR is a total failure, an asymettrical game is far more nuanced than Escape vs. Sacrifice.
Also going by Nightlight stats does not even take every player into account lol.You believed the escape rate was wrong. I proved it isn't. What you're saying amounts to, "It's wrong because I said so!". Say less, my guy.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768834#Comment_3768834
and once again, the stats do not tell the full story. and im tired of trying to explain why. I'll just point at skull merchant at this point.
But the stats do tell the full story.
I'll break it down for you. Under the assumption the stats still hold true:
For the period of June 29 - July 27, there were 714,239 games recorded by Nightlight. Each of those games requires 4 survivors. That gives us 178,559 survivors. Of those survivors, we can reasonably assume that SoloQ and Duos account for at least 75% of that number. There are more 3-man swfs than there are 4-man swfs, so let's say that 3-mans make up 15% of that number, and 4-mans make up 10%.
That gives us 26,783 and 17,855 survivors respectively. That's 107,135 and 71,423 games respectively. If the escape rate is 42.46%, and 48.30% respectively at high MMR, then that means high MMR trios have escaped 45,639 trials. High MMR 4-mans have escaped 34,497 trials. You would need 223 High MMR SWFs (Note: That's 223 groups of four, for a total of 892 players) to throw just to make a 5% difference.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Slow their gens. Others have suggested slowing their healing and stuff too. Just start with the gens. We discovered this years ago, that swf teams who know what they're doing can just hover around the killer, have 1 person on gens, and then as soon as they see they're starting to lose, all hop on the last gen or 2 and escape. The difference in swf and solo gen speed is undeniable. Like I've said, to all the people complaining survivors are "so weak," the only thing stopping solos from achieving swf gen speed is matchmaking. You get 4 survivors who know what they're doing instead of 1-2, you win pretty much automatically. Hence the solution to swf being a gen speed debuff. This is so obvious.
Penalizing people for playing with their friends is not the solution. It already takes 90 seconds to complete a gen solo. In order to see any meaningful impact, you would need to change that to 120 seconds when playing against a SWF. This would result in kill rates going up across the board, and killers getting some heavy nerfs.
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765950#Comment_3765950
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765968#Comment_3765968
It's not punishing you for playing with friends. It's evening it out, since playing with friends "rewards" you so to speak. Just for playing with friends instead of solo. You get straight-up greater gen and healing efficiency by doing that. It's the killer who bears the punishment. They get, not even harder opponents, but a harder match facing the same opponents, and don't even get told.
It is punishing people for playing with their friends, though. You're penalizing them on the basis that they are playing with their friends.
@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768516#Comment_3768516
From my own experience, there is 0 you can do as a killer when the 4man swf is communicating your position, even enough when they moderatly point it out they dont have to do it every second. By the time you reach their spot they have alredy started running away, you go back, same on the other side. Thats why i dont believe 4 man swf escape rate is as low as the polls show, but maybe not all 4 mans are communicating like that.
But it doesnt really matter, swf is to stay anyway and i think the game was in a better state when killers still had some form of slowdown perks, gen speeds are a little bit too fast right now. But its definitly not as bad as couple of years agoYou are free to believe what you want, but the official stats come straight from bhvr themselves. As a reminder, the statistics are global and not isolated to one particular region. A 4-man SWF has an overall escape rate of 43%, which increases to 48% at high MMR.
Something to note about high MMR is that survivors are not playing casually. They're playing to win. They will employ every means necessary to that end. The same applies to killer. Nobody at high MMR is playing casually. The only thing someone at high MMR cares about is winning.
I'm a survivor main. I dabble in killer occasionally. I'm in the OCE Region, and games often feel very sweaty on account of the lower population despite being around average MMR. I care more about having a fun experience than I do about winning, and a fun experience for me is simply not being tunneled or camped.
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Well, a large part of the problem here is that BPs are just not enough of an incentive to long-time players. Most players who have been playing DBD for several years now have either every character prestiged, or most of them prestiged.
If you're a survivor main: There's no reason to prestige anyone beyond P1 except for your main. If you're a killer main: You likely only play select killers, rather than the entire killer roster. This makes BPs less valuable if you've already prestiged everyone for their perks, and have a decent collection of add-ons for your mains.
Cranking it up to 800% will attract players with far fewer hours. Throw in Iri Shards as a reward, and long-time players might feel like it's worth it.
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@ScytheIX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768039#Comment_3768039
No one says that changing or removing WoO would be the only thing that needs to happen (mind you, I didn't ask for removal and I'm tired of people interpreting stuff into what is said, that isn't there).
A lot of things would need change for regression to get "dethroned", but that's not the the point here. The point is the absolute brainafk playstyles.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768090#Comment_3768090
I won't talk to someone that calls someone that plays both sides equally 'biased' and keeps egochecking them, twisting words or only reading half of what has been said, because that's just a waste of my time.
(You haven't clarified either what you actually are, but you seem to talk a lot like a survivor main that exclusively plays that role though.)
You asked for clarification on multiple occasions while I already clarified and I am not willing to repeat myself over and over again like a broken record.
You don't keep me in an argument that way.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768038#Comment_3768038
Counterplay =/= reliable counterplay. (Since I like to talk about Weave + Frankies a lot I guess one could say the counterplay to that is bringing OoO and or carrying the item to the edge of the map.
But yeah, keep telling people to fight a forest fire with a spraybottle.
Y'all are so focused on keeping your precious perks the way they are, actively denying change or meta shakeups.
Keep doing it. It's your right. But next time come with actual arguments that make sense instead of instantly calling 'bias' while the only ones biased are you yourselves.Weave only takes effect when your item's charges are reduced to zero. No perk is needed to counter it, and unless you're running a perk to recharge your item you can just drop it somewhere at 1 charge. Unless you're getting into a chase with the killer early or running either a flashlight, key, or medkit, Frankie's isn't going to be a problem.
I don't think Weave + Frankie's is a big problem tbh. It's easily countered, and those perks aren't anywhere near as strong as regression perks.
On the subject of WoO and "reliable counterplay": You have Enduring + Spirit Fury which is a general pallet counterplay. You also have the Hex perks Third Seal, and Blood Favor. There are also add-ons that inflict blindness. There is a risk that your Hex could be broken at the start of the game, but that's down to RNG. It's not guaranteed to happen.
As far as afflictions go, Blindness is probably the least impactful. It hides auras, which doesn't really bother survivors too much unless they're running a full aura build. This means that a hex like Third Seal is either going to be cleansed because someone spawned on it, or stay up for the entire round because it's not inconveniencing the survivors enough that they feel the need to look for it.
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@BlazingValkyrie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767960#Comment_3767960
i highly doubt that one perk that has easy counters is a good example to force a full build down peoples throat that also isnt good
as a counter argument u could ask why you arent able to use any means to check which pallet is dropped or alert or object to see where chases are
simply because windows is the best option and if its an outlier which it is it needs to be looked at and there is no question about it
What on earth makes you think you need to run a full build to counter WoO? I listed off counters to the perk. You pick one and roll with it.
You'd be surprised at how long a Hex like Third Seal can remain active. If the hex perk in question provides a minor inconvenience at best, Survivors are unlikely to waste their time looking for it.
@ScytheIX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767970#Comment_3767970
No perks are created equal yet you undermine the strength of a perk with 100% uptime.
You just said one should just run Third Seal which is counterable by cleansing it (once again). So are the other perks you named that don't need running if there is better options out there.
Other perks (Mindbreaker for example) are highly situational. You hear a TR approaching. Get off gen, walk off blindness and exhaustion.
Bullhorn? Only when cleansing, so only really useful in a full build around stealth gameplay or paired with Iri Vial (aka 2 addons, not just one).
Septic Touch? Only in the TR.
Ultimate Weapon? Only in a certain range around the locker.
So to cover all bases I would have to run up to 4 perks to keep the blindness up reliably.
If a perk you claim to not be as strong as people make it out to be needs 4 perks to RELIABLY (once again, I say words like this for a reason) counter that one perk that has a reliable uptime, the math clearly isn't mathing (as previously stated).I'm not undermining the strength of the perk. WoO is an information type perk. It cannot compete, in terms of strength, with regression perks. They are fundamentally different.
Yes, Third Seal can be cleansed. What's your point here?
If you're looking for a permanent non-counterable solution to WoO, then you aren't going to find it. You don't need to run 4 perks to keep the blindness readily up. The goal is not to permanently keep the perk out of play.
@Lexidoll said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767960#Comment_3767960
If killer perks get nerfed for high usage rates why hasn't WoO been nerfed yet for the same reason. it's been the most used perk in the game for multiple chapters. dead hard had to get a 50% usage rate before they """""nerfed"""" it.
What year are you playing the game in where ruin is stronger than WoO? the undying ruin meta? like 2019? maybe even the og ruin where it made you regress the gen with good skillchecks? you might want to use your time machine for something more productive.
Assuming you aren't a time traveller, which has some worrying implications for that take. ruin is going to get cleansed within the first 30 seconds because someone spawned on top of it and if it doesn't it will after a survivor realizes it's active and then realizes because ruin is being used that means the killer doesn't have any gen kicking perks. and the list of perks that could be using is narrowed and if they are using a gen kicking perk with ruin, not cleansing ruin actually turns ruin against the killer.
I love the "counter x perk by running niche weird barely useful perk" yeah man, go counter pre nerf pain res dead man switch by running calm spirit, it's an easy counter just use calm spirit. because that's a great idea for the game's health. railroad players into using specific perks to counter problematic perks that people don't enjoy going against by just making them have to dedicate part of their build to deal with 1 potential perk they *could* go against.The most notable killer perks to be nerfed for high usage rates have been regression perks. When WoO is passively repairing generators, then we can say they're equivalent in strength. Ruin was just an example, and is objectively stronger by virtue of being a regression perk.
Railroad players into using specific perks
It's a little thing called Counterplay.
I know this is really hard for all you Windows complainers to understand, but the problem is not WoO. It's map design. Nerfing the perk won't fix bad map design. Pre-nerf Pain Res DMS couldn't be countered by Calm Spirit. You wouldn't scream, but you'd still let go of the gen.
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You can't "limit" SWF. Punishing people for playing with their friends is never the answer.
The overall escape rate for SoloQ is 40.34%, followed by Duos at 40.10%, Trios at 40.56%, and 4-mans at 43.09%. That means that there is, at most, a 3% difference overall. Duos escape 0.24% less than SoloQ, and Trios escape 0.22% more than SoloQ.
High MMR is where we start noticing a difference, but at that point survivors are basically Seal Team 6, and killers are employing every meta strat and perk to increase their chances of winning.
If you're someone who plays this game religiously for several hours a day, and wins 90% of the time, then you're probably high MMR. If you lose more than you win, however, you're likely in that middle bracket where you're playing against experienced players who play on a more casual basis. People who play more casually are likely to have a lower MMR than their skill would seemingly indicate.
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@ScytheIX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767960#Comment_3767960
Why would a cleansable (off spawn) perk be better than a perk that has 100% uptime unless a person uses up to 4 perks and 2 addons to counter it? The math ain't mathing.
This is a rhetorical question that doesn't need to be answered.The inherent weakness of hex perks being cleansable off spawn doesn't make them weaker than a perk that, despite having 100% uptime, only shows you the locations of pallets and vaults. You also only need to use one perk or add-on to counter WoO.
Not all perks are created equal.
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@Lexidoll said:
WoO isn't just unhealthy, as I've said in a post I made ages ago, it's actively ruining the balance of the game because it extends chases, especially if the players you're chasing would have no idea where they should be running without it.
which in turn makes gens go "faster" because it's taking longer for killers to catch survivors that are holding W from yellow aura to yellow aura with zero thought or skill.
That's the other awful part of WoO, it enhances THE most boring part of dbd for killer. Holding W. and even worse you can't deadzone a player with WoO because they can literally see there's nothing to use, so they'll avoid that area.
If you only play survivor you wont notice it but as killer, you'll find that half the time you're chasing a player who is ONLY looking forward and consistently making it to pallets hidden behind walls again, and again. it's insanely unfun and baffles me why it's the currently most used perk in the game and has remained unchanged since they buffed it a year or two ago. meanwhile killer perks routinely get nerfed for high pick rates because they're unfun to go against as survivor. Can we, for the love of god have some consistency there.
It should be reverted to have it's old cooldown. or go on cooldown after you fast vault with it like other perks, dance with me, quick and quiet. etc.Killer perks get nerfed for high usage rates/being too strong, as do survivor perks. It depends on the perk's function. Ruin, for example, passively regressing generators that aren't actively being worked on is far stronger than WoO, which shows you pallets and vaults.
If WoO is so problematic, why don't killers run Hex: The Third Seal? Several killers have blindness add-ons, so you could even get away with not having to sacrifice a perk slot. Could even run Hex: Blood Favor.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766410#Comment_3766410
Having a perk that shows where every available resource is at all times leads to the devs removing resources. Hence, map reworks like Haddonfield with deadzones everywhere. I would prefer maps with more resources but an expectation that survivors need to pay close attention and use actual knowledge and game sense to identify where the resources are. You know, actual skill expression? Rather than "beep boop follow Google Maps to next yellow thing".
The haddonfield rework had nothing to do with WoO, and everything to do with it being a garbage map. The first iteration was an unbalanced mess that heavily favored Balanced Landing. The first rework had a disgusting 3-gen, but also had multiple house of pain loops. The rework of the rework took away the house loops, and shrunk the map. I used like 3 pallets in a single chase, and that was most of the pallets on the map.
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They've already announced it's going to be fixed as soon as possible. Just be patient. If it's so hard for you to be patient, stop playing until the patch is released.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764951#Comment_3764951
They lose line of on me by looping in order to lose line of sight. They use perks to hide scratch marks, use speed boost, blind me. They don't hang around and wait for me to chase them around another loop. That's the difference. Looping to lose line of sight works. Looping to flex how well they can loop or to buy time just doesn't work. Huge proportion of loopers will hang around and wait to get another chase to try waste time so gens get done. But the fact is it just doesn't work on me. It might work on others, but 9/10 the looping just doesn't waste enough time. tunnel them out asap and move on. And I definitely disagree with the the 45 seconds and lose because I have taken way longer and I still win. This is my point, against me anyway... Looping just doesn't work, they end up dead and with a low score. If I can beat looping then I'm sure many others can too. Not saying I win them all, some times I lose against loopers but that's really not often.
While someone is looping me there is usually 1 other survivor as back up for if they get caught. Pretty obvious when I down them and there is someone else there immediately with a flashlight to waiting for the pick up. Another reason I go pyramid head, send em to the cage then tunnel the flashlight guy and it disrupts the gen guys by freeing the looper. When he's free I go after him again. When the loopers are out then even if it's 1 gen left to complete, the rest just fall. But one way or another the loopers get taken out.
Im sorry but my opinion is something skillful, something hard to do should be a flex. It's impressive to do something hard. By your own words, that's lose line of sight. And there is just as much skill in successfully tunneling someone as there is in looping, requires the same skills, knowledge of the map, anticipate survivors movements, control of movements to hug corners effectively to catch them. Use of killer abilities such as pyramid head. All these skills are involved in successfully tunneling someone. If looping is such a flex and skillful thing then it must take a degree of skill to counter it head on.
So, now we've established that looping does work on you. We've now also established that these are players who only play the game for the chase. There's a difference between a survivor who's looping you to get you to drop chase, and a survivor who wants to be chased.
I can loop most killers for 30 - 45 seconds, sometimes longer depending on tile spawns. I don't do it because I want to be chased. I do it to get the killer to drop the chase in favor of an easier target. If it works, then I don't lose a hook state. If it doesn't work, then I lose a hook state but they've just lost two gens. Looping is the only area in which a survivor can showcase their skills. That's not to say they're doing it to flex, however.
If you're playing against people who are coordinating flashlight saves for when they go down, that's two people not on gens. More efficient survivors won't bother with that, unless they're already in position for the save. They aren't going to make sure they follow their buddy around for when they inevitably get downed. The less people that are on gens, the easier it is for the killer.
Now, tunneling doesn't require skill. You're chasing one person who's just been unhooked with the intent of rehooking them. You're applying all your pressure to that one survivor while the other three work on gens. Tunneling is, more often than not, done to the detriment of defending your generators. Target the wrong person, and you could be walking away with a 1k/3E at best. Worst case, you're looking at a 4E.
As for losing LoS being skillful, it's easy to lose LoS against less experienced killers. Even without perks that hide scratch marks. More experienced killers make it so that losing LoS is a much more difficult task. Whether or not you can lose LoS on a killer depends entirely on how skilled the killer is, what perks they're running, and how well they're able to control the chase. It's more luck than skill.
All the things you think tunneling requires to be successful are completely invalidated by bloodlust. You can be a bloodlust andy, and still successfully tunnel someone out of the game. Looping isn't a flex, but it does require skill. Skill doesn't necessarily beat skill in a game where skill isn't the most important factor.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764893#Comment_3764893
There are perks that hide scratch marks. Like I said previously the ones that use these perks to lose me in a chase end up winning. Looping doesn't work on me so fail to see how it's worthwhile to loop based on the years I been playing. I would say same can be said for tunneling because the killer needs to be aware if his surroundings just like the survivors do, needs to read the survivors to anticipate the next move. But surly if survivors want to flex skills then it would better to flex at how they can lose line of sight. You said it yourself, much harder to lose line of sight than loop. That's the real flex, not looping.
Also isn't looping the equivalent of tunneling? Ignoring all other objectives, having tunnel vision only concentrating on the looping nothing else. Not doing gens, not healing team mates, not doing totems. Sounds like survivor version of tunneling to me.
All I can say is what works and doesn't work in the matches I have played. On a nightly bases I'm getting regular 3/4k against people that loop. When I lose its not due to looping it's due to losing line of sight. Maybe I'm playing a different game to everyone else lol but that's my genuine nightly experience on dbd
No skill is involved in tunneling. You are focusing solely on one survivor out of four. What do you think the other three survivors are doing while the fourth is busy in chase? Their objective. Your objective is not just to get kills, it is also to prevent the survivors from completing their objective. If it takes you more than 45 seconds to get your first hook, you've already lost two gens.
You equate looping to tunneling, despite them not even being remotely similar. A survivor cannot be in two places at once. A survivor who's in chase cannot simultaneously be doing a generator, or cleansing totems. How exactly are they supposed to be able to do these things while being chased? They can't, because it's not physically possible.
Losing LoS is not the real flex. It's much harder to lose LoS on more experienced killers because they don't blindly follow scratch marks. They control the chase, and where they want you to go. You keep saying survivors lose LoS on you, but how do they do that without looping? Do they just round a corner and suddenly disappear? Looping isn't about trying to delay the killer indefinitely. It's about making the chase take longer. The longer the chase, the more time the rest of the team has to focus on gens.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764564#Comment_3764564
If looping is the only skillful area for survivors then same can be said for tunneling, about keeping on the survivor, reading what they will do, making sure they don't lose line of sight, knowing what resources are in the area where they could lose line of sight. During the chase, it's more skilful to be able to lose line of sight and lose the killer than to go in circles imo.
It still doesn't explain what the point is. Ok so they flex about how "skillful they can loop" but to what end? 9/10 loopers going against me end up dead with a low score because they haven't done ######### all else in the match. It's easy to predict because most loopers do the same thing. I have been a survivor for a long time prior to being a killer and I still just don't see the point. As a survivor I played dbd to accomplish the goal of the game, do the gens, survive, escape. Not flex about how good my pointless, meaningless looping is. As a killer I play dbd to get kills. If people want to dance around and flex and lose that's fine by me. They lose but hey at least they can loop for a little while lol
The same cannot be said about tunneling. It's called tunneling because you tunnel vision. You ignore everything else around you for the sake of going after one person.
Good killers rarely lose LoS on survivors, and even when they do, it's only enough time for the survivor to gain distance. Looping is realistically the only thing survivors can do to shake the killer. Survivors move at 4.0m/s, while Killers are either 4.6m/s or 4.4m/s, with the exception of Nurse. If a survivor just mindlessly runs in a straight line, they'll get caught and downed. If they just mindlessly run pallet to pallet, they'll create deadzones.
It's easy to lose LoS on a low MMR killer, because they just follow the scratchmarks. Much harder to lose LoS on a killer who mindgames loops, and forces the survivor to either make a mistake or run to a deadzone.
It sounds to me like the loopers you're talking about are people who play the game purely for the chase. Not everyone who loops plays like that. Survivors loop because it buys their team the most time. Losing LoS rarely works in chase against more experienced, more knowledgeable killers.
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Map offerings should just work opposite to how they currently work.
As an example:
BEEF TALLOW MIXTURE
- Tremendously reduces the chance to be sent to The Decimated Borgo when burnt.
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I agree. Make it a meme add-on.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764506#Comment_3764506
The automatic consequence for going AFK is time. And going AFK is reportable, and those players should be reported and punished.
And figuring out the legitimate reasons is not crucial, because most of the reasons aren't legitimate. I think a bunch of people on these forums want to hold anti-ragequitting solutions hostage, and demand that certain survivor game balance issues need to be addressed before BHVR is allowed to make anti-ragequitting solutions.
…That isn't realistic, and doesn't address the fact that being able to quickly bypass DC penalties is literally a major game problem by itself. Yes, there are people that will ask themselves if ragequitting is justified, if they not longer have a quick way to bypass DC penalties. Everyone isn't the worst case scenario. Everyone isn't 100% determined to ragequit regardless of the consequences.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764539#Comment_3764539
That doesn't summarize the problem nicely. Kill rates aren't a problem that need to be solved. And it doesn't address the fact that both sides of the game sometimes feel like their games are unwinnable, which means that problem isn't solely caused by kill rates.
And framing game balance as "stuff that happens at the start of the game", isn't fair to both sides. If the killer in the game is stomping the survivors, then yes, there might be multiple hooks near the start of the game. But if the survivors are stomping the killers, the issue isn't identified right away. It's more like the killer spends a bunch of time not being able to hook anyone, which can't be determined at the start of the game. Also, this is basically the same issue as the other paragraph, where survivors sometimes think games aren't winnable… and again, killers also feel some games aren't winnable, so this isn't a survivor-only problem.
It's not worst-case scenario, it's a realistic expectation for this community. If the consequence of time meant anything to people who rage quit, they wouldn't bother playing in the first place. Going AFK is reportable, yes, but it isn't going to stop them from doing it.
Figuring out the legitimate reasons is crucial. You have no way of knowing what percentage of rage quits have legitimate reasons. Anti-rage quitting solutions are a waste of time, because the people who rage quit aren't merely doing it out of convenience.
I agree that it isn't realistic for BHVR to focus on survivor game balance problems before tackling other problems, but I disagree that bypassing the DC penalty is a major game issue. I think this is just a case of people remembering the games where it did happen more prominently than the games where it didn't happen.
People who ask themselves if their reason for rage quitting is justified were never going to rage quit to begin with. People who rage quit don't care about the consequences. The only thing stopping them from disconnecting is that the timer increases with every disconnect. If they only had to eat a 5 minute penalty each time? Guarantee they'd just disconnect instead.
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I believe the word you're looking for is Hide, rather than Disable. That aside, I agree with your idea.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764531#Comment_3764531
I very much disagree with the whole looping only way to showcase their skill level because like I said many times, in my experience spanning multiple years, looping just doesn't work. Ye they can go in circles for ages, hardly skillful. I was survivor for 2 years I have done it and know how easy it is. But the loopers end up dead with pretty low score end of match when the go against me anyway. The ones that don't loop, work on gens and lose line of sight when after a chasing for a bit... They are the ones that end up beating me.
Looping isn't just going in circles, though. Knowing what resources are in your area, how to utilise them, and chain them together while also being able to read what the killer is going to do is incredibly skillful.
There is nothing skillful about sitting on a generator and hitting the occasional skill check that only exists to ensure the survivor is actually paying attention. The same applies to altruistic actions. The chase is the only area in which a survivor can showcase their skill level as a player.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764458#Comment_3764458
Not exactly true, there has been a few games where survivors have actually lost line of sight and won, all survived. They didn't loop and still had an effective role. Survivors have different ways to play, most want to loop. That's fine by me because very very often I'm prepared for it and effectively take away their looping tactic and they end up losing as a result of trying it.
By all means if survivors feel looping is the way to go and enjoy the comedic scooby doo scenes then go for it, I don't find it fun but each to their own. they really shouldn't complain when they have similar boring tactics used on them tho... Camping and slugging for instance. Survivors think it's boring but they obviously don't care about my enjoyment when they are looping circles around me so why should I care about their enjoyment when I slug them and take the 4k? Works both ways, each to their own tactic, whatever makes them win and have fun. But looping rarely gets a win in my experience.
Losing LoS is an effective tool, but I'm not sure you could call that a stealth playstyle since the point of a stealth playstyle is to avoid ever being seen by the killer in the first place.
It's not really about fun. Looping is effective, and really the only way for survivors to showcase their skill level. Someone who can't loop is often going down in chase very quickly. Whereas someone who can loop is going to run the killer for a long time, maximising the value they get out of a single chase.
It's important to understand that while the scooby-doo-esque chases may not be to your liking, it's a result of how DBD has evolved over time. Stealth used to be a viable playstyle, but with perks like Nowhere to Hide, Floods of Rage, BBQ, Bitter Murmur, Darkness Revealed, Alien Instinct, Ultimate Weapon, Weave Attunement, etc. It's just not viable to go all-in on stealth anymore.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764449#Comment_3764449
A lot of the ragequits happen for unacceptable reasons that BHVR should never try to fix. Maybe the survivor hates all killers that can go undetectable. Maybe the survivor was found by the killer near the beginning of the game. There could be any number of unacceptable reasons why survivors ragequit.
The trigger reason isn't important though. The important thing is when a survivor can quickly go to the next game, with zero consequences to themselves, they don't need to actually ask themselves "is my reason for wanting to ragequit good enough to justify ragequitting"?
But if there wasn't any ways for a survivor to quickly go to the next game without any consequences to themselves, the survivor would actually need to ask themselves if their reason for wanting to ragequit is good enough to 1) potentially be stuck with long periods of time on a hook, or 2) suffer a DC penalty, or 3) potentially be stuck in the match for a while if they go AFK.
Which is why I said it's important to understand why the majority of survivors who are rage quitting are doing it. The trigger reason is important if you want to avoid ending up at square one again.
People who rage quit are never going to ask themselves the question of whether or not it's justified. Again, clearly these people want to play the game but there are certain reasons they choose not to participate instead. Figuring out what the legitimate reasons are is crucial to preventing more of the same, just with a different method.
There's still no consequence if they choose to afk. There's still no consequence if they immediately throw themselves at the killer after being unhooked. Are we going to then insist that those players need to be punished too, when it becomes a problem?
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764190#Comment_3764190
True the lobby screen is a bit informative for a killer but killers don't get to see if they are going against a group of swf so killer doesn't know how well the communication or team play is going to be so survivors do have that going for them I suppose and a killer doesn't know if the survivors are going to loop until the match starts so doesn't know if anti loop killer is needed or not.
I'm not saying things should be equal, I don't think they should. Survivors were always ment to be the underdogs, fighting to survive and escape. The whole concept of running circles around a pallet is a joke. It's a horror game that has become a rip off scooby doo sketch with a killer chasing a survivor in circles. Survivors have the choice to play stealth, lose line of sight, hide scratch marks, bust out gens reasonably fast. But they usually decide to loop so I go into matches prepared for it. Annoying really because it means most killers are pretty much redundant just like most perks for survivors.
I have played too many matches where survivors loop and even deliberately try to get my attention so others can do gens. That's why I pretty much tunnel most of the time. It's a means to counter the survivor meta of looping. If people were more stealthy, lost line of sight I wouldn't tunnel.
Stealth just isn't viable anymore. Stealth was a viable playstyle before maps started getting their visual overhauls, and before the plethora of aura reading/location revealing perks we have now.
Dead by Daylight may be horror-themed, but it's still a videogame. Take away looping, and you may as well have killed the survivor role.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764327#Comment_3764327
The reason "why the majority of players who do this are doing it" is because there is a quick and easy way to ragequit that bypasses the DC penalties. That's literally the reason. It's quick, it's easy, and there's zero penalties or consequences for the person doing this.
And, Yes! Reducing the likelihood of your average player ragequitting, is literally the goal here. That's it. Reducing the ragequitting problem. That is a good enough reason to implement these suggestions.
And it doesn't matter if the problem isn't completely solved. That's not a requirement. Yes, someone might decide to AFK, but that is the worst case scenario, and not the most likely scenario.
Do you understand that when a survivor ragequits early, in ways that bypass the DC penalties, that it massively lowers the survivor team's chances of survival? It doesn't matter if a survivor quickly cycles through hook states, or goes AFK, because the end result is that the rest of the survivors are at a massive disadvantage. Therefore, reducing the number of survivors that bypass the DC penalties, should be a high priority for BHVR.
That's not why they're doing it, though.
Your average player isn't rage quitting nearly enough for it to be a problem. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have witnessed someone attempting to give up on first hook in 1600 hours of total playtime.
The goal isn't reducing the likelihood that your average player will rage quit, because your average player might rage quit once out of a hundred games. The goal is to reduce the occurrence of rage quitting, which just isn't feasible if you don't understand why people are doing it to begin with.
It being easy to bypass the DC penalty fails to explain any sort of reasoning behind why survivors are choosing to end their match early.
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764268#Comment_3764268
And the answer to "why" is so simple, because it's literally free and so easy to pull off
If giving up is far easier than actually playing the game, of course people will give up, just make it difficult is ACTUALLY enough to stop everyone from acting like that, exactly like DC penalty
It would be easier for them to simply not play, so that just doesn't add up. Clearly these people still want to play the game, but there's some reason they don't want to participate in certain matches.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764082#Comment_3764082
are you advocating for rage quitting then?
I'm not advocating for rage quitting. I'm simply against adding mechanics that aren't going to solve the problem, because people will find ways to circumvent the system, then people will complain about that too.
If someone really doesn't want to participate in the match that badly, I'd rather not have them in the match at all.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764067#Comment_3764067
Do you understand that killers don't have a quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties, and killers can "just find other ways to circumvent the system", and most of the games are still fine?
The same would apply to survivors, if you removed their quick and easy ways to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties. There absolutely are survivors that are only ragequitting, specifically because there is a quick and easy way to do so, that bypasses the DC penalties. Those are the people that would be affected by this change. That is why this solution would successfully reduce the amount of survivor ragequitting.
Killers don't get a quick and easy way to ragequit because of how their objective works, and the fact that there's only one of them per match. Please stop framing this as if killer players are somehow missing out.
Making it less convenient for survivors to rage quit will only serve to reduce the likelihood of your average player doing it. It isn't solving the problem. It's just making it less convenient, and the same people complaining about it now will complain again about how the problem hasn't been solved.
The people who give up on first hook are now more likely to just AFK. They'd DC, but they still want to be able to play the game. They just don't want to participate in certain matches. Can't remove DC penalties because it messes with statistics. The only way to solve the problem is to first address why the majority of players who do this are doing it.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764067#Comment_3764067
repairing generators or hooking with just 3 survivors are never enough to be a "normal gameplay", literally every aspect of dead by daylight is made to be played with four survivors and a killer playing seriously across entire match, "that's just an ideal gameplay" is literally a subjective opinion you've just made up here
Objectively speaking, game is severely unbalanced in that state and might as well kick everyone out at that point, "excessively lower escape rate" is bad enough to call it a non-normal matches, even developers acknowledge that and that is the reason exactly why DC penalty exist, to make less people suffer from those "not a normal matches"
Normal gameplay just refers to the normal gameplay loop. So long as all players are able to participate in it, it is normal gameplay.
You cannot guarantee that the players you are matched with will choose to participate. Ideally, all the players you are matched with will participate in normal gameplay. Hence why it's ideal gameplay.
If the DC penalty exists to make less people suffer from abnormal matches as you claim, why then do we still have DC penalties with bots able to replace survivors who DC? It exists to punish players for leaving matches they queued up for.
Again, you cannot force players to participate if they don't want to. Trying to do so will not have the desired results, and will just end up with people finding alternative ways of circumventing the system.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763938#Comment_3763938
The point is that even though you "can't force someone to play the game", DBD still survives as a game, even though killers don't have a quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties.
And therefore, the game will still survive even if survivors aren't able to quickly ragequit, in ways that bypass the DC penalties.
I never said anything about the game dying, though? You can't force someone to participate in a game they don't want to. People will just find other ways to circumvent the system, which puts us back at square one with a change that only serves to make it ever so slightly less convenient for someone to rage quit.
@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764037#Comment_3764037
"they have only reduced the teams chance at winning" → makes it not a normal gameplay.
Winning and Losing are end results. You seem to be misunderstanding something here. Normal gameplay does not refer to ideal gameplay. It refers to the normal gameplay loop in which four survivors need to repair 5 generators to activate the exit gates and escape the killer.
Someone giving up on first hook in no way prevents the survivors from repairing generators in an effort to escape. It also doesn't prevent the killer from hooking the remaining survivors. It's unlikely that the survivors will win, but not impossible. You would have this same problem with:
- AFK Survivor
- Throwing Survivor
- Baby Survivor
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763832#Comment_3763832
It's the same thing, a game with 3 survivor is not a "normal gameplay" in any way, those who suicide is robbing anyone else's game
It's not hard logic or anything like at all, you can pretend you don't know what "normal gameplay" means, but the fact doesn't change
It's not the same thing at all. Someone being facecamped to death was unable to do anything but sit on the hook and stare at the killer. That doesn't constitute normal gameplay.
Being hooked is part of normal gameplay, being camped to death is not. That's why there's a mechanic to prevent it. Pretty simple stuff.
When someone gives up on first hook, they aren't preventing the rest of the lobby from participating in normal gameplay. They've only reduced the team's chance of winning.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763832#Comment_3763832
It's literally not though. There's no one hovering over a player's shoulder, to physically restrain them if they try to DC. Survivors are literally able to DC every single game, because nothing is actually forcing them to stay in the game.
And killers don't have a quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties, and the game still survives. Yes, there are some killers that DC, and some killers that AFK, but overall it's better for the game that killers don't have a quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties.
…And the same should apply to survivors. The game would be overall better if the quick and easy ways to ragequit, that bypass the DC penalties, are removed from the game for survivors.
Killers don't have a way to quit without bypassing the DC penalty because the role and how you play it is fundamentally different from the survivor role. One person disconnecting on the survivor side lowers the chances of winning, but it doesn't actually prevent anyone from participating in normal gameplay. It's the same as someone giving up on first hook. It reduces the chances of winning, but beyond that doesn't actually prevent anyone from playing out the match normally.
Survivors are able to DC every game, but thanks to DC penalties increasing the more you do it, there's just no point in doing it. It's the same for killer.
It's better for the game that survivors can't rage quit until you realize that all the people who don't want to participate will find other ways to circumvent the system, bringing us back to square one.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763485#Comment_3763485
It's the same thing, a mechanic that stops killers from making a survivor unable to participate (which is objectively wrong as you are still participating in the game with camping/tunneling) in the game, and a mechanic that stops survivors from making literally everyone else unable to participate in the game
"otherwise they'll act against the rule" is never a good reason because those kind of act is bannable regardless of reasons
It's not the same thing, and a survivor being facecamped is unable to participate in normal gameplay. They are forced into a state of non-participation, which is why there's a mechanic to prevent it.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763485#Comment_3763485
DC penalties don’t force players to stay in a game. My suggestions for removing non-guaranteed self unhooks, and removing 2nd stage hook skill checks, also don’t force players to stay in a game. Never have I ever said people should be forced to stay in a game.
And if players go AFK or sabotage their team, that is reportable. We shouldn’t avoid making game improvements, because rule breakers might break rules.
DC Penalties do, in fact, force players to stay in a game. Removing non-guaranteed self-unhooks, alongside 2nd stage hook skill checks is also forcing players to stay in a game. If someone does not want to participate any longer, you cannot force them. I would rather be down a teammate than be lumped with someone who's deliberately throwing.
Players engaging in unsportsman-like conduct may be reportable, but it's not going to stop them from doing it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763361#Comment_3763361
You can’t force killers to stop facecamping, but BhVR still made an anti facecamp mechanic. You can’t force killers to stop making 3-gens, but BHVR still made an anti 3-gen mechanic.
Similarity, you can’t stop survivors from ragequitting, but BHVR can still implement an anti ragequitting mechanic.
Not the same thing, at all. A mechanic that stops killers from playing in a way that forces someone to be unable to participate in normal gameplay is not the same as forcing someone to stay in a match they don't want to be in.
A survivor who's forced to stay in a match they don't want to be in will either afk, or they'll just sabotage the rest of the team.
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While ragequitting is annoying, and changes could be made to make it more inconvenient, you can't really force someone to stay in a match they don't want to be in. They'll find ways to get out of it if they want to. Deliberately seeking out the killer, or afking are both things you can't really stop them from doing.
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BHVR fix your OCE server. I'm tired of playing against killers with lag. I don't enjoy being hit by a hatchet through a wall because for some reason I'm being matched with players whose ping is sitting at 160ms.
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The problem with Skull Merchant, as far as I can tell, is that she's area denial, stealth, and chase all in one.
I mean, Hag and Trapper are very much area denial killers. They set up their web, and their goal is to push survivors into it. They're not exactly strong chase killers.
I haven't enjoyed a single SM merchant since she released. 3-gen Merchant was boring, but equally as boring is a killer who can deny such a large part of the map.
While I could come up with ideas that would make her more enjoyable to play against, I don't know that those ideas would also make her fun to play as. I don't want to take away the enjoyment from the few people who do play her.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747807#Comment_3747807
My point isn't to add remote hooking. My point with mentioning that was that most people want slugging removed, but only in a way that essentially nerfs the killer. Those same people generally wouldn't want slugging removed if it was done so by incentivizing the killer into hooking or giving them an alternative to accomplish the same thing that wasn't nerfing them.
I mean, if we're going by the topic, people want slugging for the 4k to be removed. They aren't necessarily looking to have it implemented in a way that nerfs the killer, but you do need to understand that solutions that don't nerf the killer are met with "But why should the killer be denied a 4k?"
People have asked for the ability to bleed out faster, and that was criticised by killers for denying them a 4k. A survivor being able to bleed out faster doesn't nerf the killer. It just means that one person isn't just sitting on the ground waiting for the killer to find that last person.
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@Blueberry said:
Pick up, carry, and hook wastes a ton of time and map pressure. If you want to be able to get out of games sooner would you be in favor of adding insta hooks then? Similar to the event ones. Then you get your hook instead of slug and the killer won't mind doing it since it's now time efficient.
Remote hooking isn't very balanced. Killer has a higher chance of finding the hatch than the survivor does. The survivor has to avoid the killer while also trying to find the hatch.
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@Mikeyboi1225 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746824#Comment_3746824
I can't even take this seriously after "Rapid Brutality is just bad," followed by nothing by the Cliffnotes version of its description. My brother in Christ, Rapid Brutality is one of the easiest chase perks to get value from, and if you can't, it's definitely because you were too busy mentally writing this paper at the time you were attempting to use it.
I don't use Rapid Brutality, because it's a bad perk. The distance you gain from that 5% haste is neglible. Realistically, you're getting 7 seconds of haste and going from a 110% killer to a 115% killer, or 115% to 120% for that duration.
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Windows, Botany, We'll Make It, Aftercare
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746824#Comment_3746824
I feel like the idea wasn't to limit each person into being a "class" but rather the perks. Assigning each perk slot to only fit a certain class of perks so you won't have people stacking 1 type of perk and would instead encourage a balanced build.
Most functional builds revolve around utilizing perks that synergize with each other. Most of those perks fall into a single category based on their purpose. Making each perk slot into a class, or a category, is going to heavily restrict builds. As an example, We'll Make It and Botany Knowledge. Both these perks are altruistic in nature, so under a class system you just couldn't run them together.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746829#Comment_3746829
This is exactly it. I understand that people wouldn’t want the freedom to make any build they like and discover different perk synergies to go away. But stacking 3/4 of the same type of perk? I don’t believe this is healthy or what the intention of the perk system actually is.
There are a lot of perks in DBD, but it's important to understand that not all of those perks are good, and if we want to change people stacking the strongest perks then we need to address why people are stacking those perks to begin with.
Our top 4 perks are WoO, Lithe, Resilience, Adrenaline. Lithe is an excellent perk because it can be used at almost any tile for a 150% speed boost. Resilience gives you increased action speeds, and faster vault speeds, but only while injured. This means that you'll want to spend most of the trial injured, and you'll need to be good at looping. This is where WoO synergizes with Resilience since you'll be able to tell what pallets are still up, and where. Adrenaline only activates after the final gen has been done, but it isn't hard to see the value in a free health state, plus a 150% speed boost.
WoO will always be used, because it provides information on what your available resources are. If we want Resilience to fall off, self care needs to be viable on its own. Outside of nerfing Adrenaline and Lithe, there's little you can do to change why people pick these perks.
On the killer side, it's pretty easy to explain why they stack regression perks. Maps often give no thought to killers without mobility, and Lethal is basically necessary to get a headstart on survivors. For an M1 killer, spawning on the opposite end of Blood Lodge to the Survivors means you're likely to have lost 3 gens by time you get your first hook. It's just too hard to defend gens as an M1 killer on big maps like that. RPD is another offender in that regard.
Making maps smaller, but having a few strong tiles on the outskirts with 50-50 loops/pallets in the middle is far more desirable than small, but pallet city (Like Gideon). It also partially fixes the issue of stacking regression perks. The other part of the issue is the lack of natural slowdown. When self-care is meta, gens go slower because survivors waste time healing instead of focusing entirely on gens.
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I see far more triple/quad slowdown builds than I do quad gen rush builds.
Part of that problem is that there's a big disconnect between perceived gen speeds, and actual gen speeds. There's also the fact that Killer is far weaker in the early game than they are in the mid-game.
Fact of the matter is, there's a lot of perks for killer that are simply too niche, map-dependent, or simply bad. As an example, Forced Hesitation is a very niche perk. While its effect is strong on paper, you're mainly getting value out of the perk against flashlight squads. The same applies to Starstruck, or Mad Grit, but against sabo squads.
As another example, Cruel Limits is very map-dependent and requires you to be in chase with a survivor when a generator pops.
Rapid Brutality is an example of a perk that's just bad. In exchange for no longer being able to gain Bloodlust, you get 5% haste for 10 seconds after hitting a survivor with a basic attack.
It's no coincidence that the best perks for killer are ones that give you Aura Reading (Lethal, BBQ, Nurses, etc.), can be used mid-chase (Bamboozle, Enduring, Spirit Fury, Superior Anatomy, etc), or hinder the Survivors progress on gens (Pain Res, Ruin, Dead Man's Switch, Grim Embrace, etc.). If a perk doesn't fall into one of these categories, it's either niche, map-dependent, or bad.
On the survivor side, it's also not a coincidence that the best perks are ones that can be used mid-chase to grant you distance (Sprint Burst, Lithe, Dead Hard, Background Player), second-chance perks (DS, Off The Record), work passively in the background (WoO, Distortion), or perks that speed up gen progression.
As an example of a bad perk for survivors, Lucky Star. This is just a pointless perk. You get Off The Record without the endurance, you can see survivors auras and the aura of the closest generator for 10 seconds after exiting a locker. Bond already exists, and generator locations come with knowledge. It's basically multiple perks rolled into one, but due to the activation condition and the fact that it only lasts 10 seconds, there's just never any reason to use the perk.
A class system would work under 2v8, but not under the main game mode. Say you split perks up into classes. You've got the Gen Jockey, The Healer, the Runner, and then a fourth class that I can't think of right now. You ignore the runner and focus on eliminating one of the other three knowing they're guaranteed to not have exhaustion perks.
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@Garboface said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745802#Comment_3745802
MMR takes care of that and they actually belong there because that is how they play at top MMR.
If all high MMR killers did was just immediately tunnel off hook, they wouldn't last very long against efficient survivors.
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I doubt it. The problem is that Skull Merchant would need a full rework. She just isn't fun to play against, and so long as her power remains setting up drones that basically prevent survivors from using those areas, then she's always going to feel boring to play against.
Zoning is fine, when there's counterplay. Look at Dredge, for instance. If Dredge uses remnant, then the survivor is put into a 50-50 situation. Do they greed the loop, and go for the remnant, or do they leave the loop in favor of a new loop? Both have the risk of getting injured, but that all depends on how well the survivor mindgames the Dredge.
Against Skull Merchant, though, you're put into a lose-lose situation. If you stay at the loop, then you become broken. If you leave the loop, Skull Merchant M1s you instead.